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EP151: Josh Abbandonato - Why Men Need Other Men
155 Plays3 months ago
Do you know where men can truly explore and express their masculinity without judgement? What does it mean to be a man in today’s world? Where masculinity is often misunderstood or even criticized. Many men are seeking spaces to explore and express their true selves without judgement.
Men face unique societal pressures that can make it difficult for them to express their true selves. There’s a growing trend where men are often encouraged to suppress their own masculinity. Having a supportive community is essential for men to navigate these pressures.
Josh Abbandonato is the host of the “Derelict Podcast”, he is passionate in addressing men’s issues and creating spaces where men can be true to themselves. Josh talks about the importance of fatherhood and seeking advice from other men to avoid repeating past mistakes and grow as better fathers and men.
Also Mentioned:
"Tribe of Mentors" by Tim Ferriss
"No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover
You’re invited to come to a Sovereign Circle meeting to experience it for yourself. To learn more, go to https://www.sovereignman.ca/. While you’re there, check out the Battle Ready program and check out the store for Sovereign Man t-shirts, hats, and books.
Transcript
Men's Emotional Spaces
00:00:01
Speaker
Where are men supposed to go to actually be able to be open and honest with their failures, their struggles, their fears, the things that they're going through? I just haven't found a lot of places that are doing that, which is so critical. What do I want to leave as a legacy, let's say, on this earth? What sort of impact do I leave? And what sort of men can I rise up? I just want to be in a place where I can support and encourage guys to be their true selves, be their true masculine selves.
00:00:33
Speaker
You're a man living in the modern world in a time when men and manhood are not what they once were. You live life on your own terms. You're self-sufficient. You think for yourself and you march to the beat of your own drum. When life knocks you down, you get back up because in your gut, you know that's what men do.
Introducing Josh Abandonado
00:00:54
Speaker
You're a badass and a warrior. And on the days when you forget, we are here to remind you who you really are.
00:01:04
Speaker
Welcome to Sovereign Man podcast where we aim to make men masking again. I'm here with my guest, Josh Abandonado. Josh, welcome to Sovereign Man. Hey, Nicky. Good to see you. Good to see you, brother. So I had the privilege of being on your podcast about a week or so ago.
00:01:28
Speaker
The derelict podcast, we had a really good conversation about issues relating to men, manhood and masculinity. And I just thought to myself, you make a great guest on the sovereign man podcast. Oh, thanks. You made a great guest for me. So I'm looking forward to it.
Mentorship and Influence
00:01:46
Speaker
Why don't we start by having you tell us a bit of your origin story of your interest in men's issues and in starting the derelict podcast.
00:01:57
Speaker
Sure. Good question on where to even start. Let's see how to keep this brief. Try to go back to my whole life story and try to be brief here. You know, I would say it started honestly when I was a kid. And, you know, I'm in
00:02:15
Speaker
let's say middle school really is when it keyed in and I started getting mentors and I went to a church and I had a small group leader and there was just other men, wiser older men that were given into me. They're giving me support and encouragement and excitement and everything else when I was young, which is so critical, so critical. My oldest
00:02:35
Speaker
is about to go into middle school this next year. And I really want that for him as well, just because we have a great relationship, him and I are awesome, but there's just something about other men speaking into your life as you're growing up that really means a lot. And I had a quick turn that exact same season of my life in middle school, one of those mentors that I just referenced actually committed suicide.
00:03:04
Speaker
Jesus. And never found his body. It was kind of an intense story. He was engaged at the time. Everybody loved him. He was a leader in the church. You know, just one of those people where they show up to their, if they could see their memorial service, right? Maybe it would keep them from doing that. But that really hit me hard. And
00:03:26
Speaker
I think it was part of the reason why in high school I really started mentoring younger boys, middle school boys specifically. I interned in my church, I did some small group exercises, that sort of thing. And then, you know, come full circle years later, one of those boys that I had for a couple years in my group did the same thing.
00:03:48
Speaker
And just, you know, same exact thing, which was memorial service. There's hundreds of people there loving on him, supporting him, and he's gone.
00:03:58
Speaker
And man, I just, you know, that really started clicking with me. There's just a lot under the surface, I guess, with men specifically. I'm not saying that there isn't with women. We had a good conversation about this on my podcast as well. But there's just a lot under the surface for men specifically that just feels like they
00:04:19
Speaker
Maybe they can't let it out or maybe they don't know how to let it out. They don't know how to be honest and vulnerable and open about kind of the shit that they're dealing with. And you take it into today, which is years and years later after both of those incidents occurred, and now with social media and the propaganda and the news and all the shit out there, right?
00:04:40
Speaker
it just is even worse it feels
Passion for Helping Men
00:04:43
Speaker
like. Like where are men supposed to go to actually be able to be open and honest with their failures, their struggles, their fears, the things that they're going through? I just haven't found a lot of places that are doing that. So I really ended up having a big passion for men even from a young age still do.
00:05:02
Speaker
and starting the podcast. And I'm in the middle of writing a book, hopefully to be like you one day, Nicky, with a few books published. And get that done here pretty soon. But part of the reason why is, again, because I do have a big passion for men. And it seems like, to me, so the reason I was saying that is my career, besides the podcast, is completely separate. I've been financed basically my entire adult life.
00:05:31
Speaker
And one of the things that happens to me all the time is that clients walk in and they essentially tell me their whole life story eventually. We start with finances, but that turns into marital problems, marital issues, what's going on in their family, what's going on in relationships. As you know, finances touch everything. All of it. So I've just found myself being in a place where I'm just coaching people, not intentionally, just trying to do finances. But I've done that for years.
00:06:00
Speaker
And those men in that group still aren't necessarily 100% honest and vulnerable and authentic with me. Their wife's present, maybe somebody else's present, etc. And I had a big birthday here a few months ago and I just started thinking about my life and thinking about what am I really passionate about? What I really care about?
00:06:22
Speaker
What do I want to leave as a legacy, let's say, on this earth? You know, odds are, Nicky, neither one of us, no one's going to remember our name 500 years from now, most likely, maybe so, most likely. And so if somebody doesn't remember our name, what I'm more concerned with is what sort of impact do I leave? And what sort of men can I rise up during that impact?
00:06:46
Speaker
especially in a society, and I'm sure we're going to get to this today, Nikki, especially in a world where true masculinity seems to be frowned upon. It just seems like if there is a man showing his true masculine self, the majority of at least what I see in media, again, government stuff, propaganda, et cetera, is just, oh, let's quiet that down.
00:07:15
Speaker
It's okay to have some feminine beliefs, but not masculine. No, no, no. Cause now you're a toxic masculine and you're doing something wrong if you actually feel your masculinity. And I just want to be in a place where I can support and encourage guys to be their true selves, be their true masculine selves. That's kind of where I'm at. You said a lot, a lot, a lot of good stuff is in your, your monologue. I want to unpack part of it. Sure.
00:07:45
Speaker
You asked where are men supposed to go to deal with their shit, right?
Men's Support Communities
00:07:51
Speaker
A few weeks ago,
00:07:54
Speaker
I had one of the leading thought leaders in the men's space on the program. His name is Dr. Robert Glover. He wrote No More Mr. Nice Guy. He just sold millions of copies. And he said to me that men today are seeking masculine, men-only spaces.
00:08:15
Speaker
And they don't even know it because those spaces over the last 50, 60, 70 years have been taken away. And so there are folks like me and Sovereign Man who create those man-men masculine only spaces.
00:08:35
Speaker
Josh, you ought to come to one of our meetings. We gotta make that happen for you. I'd love to, let's do it. Yeah. And one of the things that is really, really, really important for us to understand as a community of men is that that is necessary, necessary for us to be able to deal with crap.
00:09:00
Speaker
We have men that come into our community that are dealing with divorce, that are dealing with children that are misbehaving, like doing drugs, getting caught by police, shit like that. There's people that are dealing with deaths in their families and close friends. And what allows them to go through that?
00:09:26
Speaker
is that there's other men there beside them to say, what do you need? Treating them like a man, not like a woman, like they're broken or anything's wrong with them. But also letting them know that, hey, you want me to just sit with you while you, I don't know, make a steak, I'll watch. Because sometimes you just need another man to be around you and that's all you need. You know what I mean?
00:09:54
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. That'll make a man feel good. So I think these spaces are an important thing. And I want to know your thoughts on this. And I'd like you to expand on the idea of men being with other men in a masculine-only space.
00:10:14
Speaker
I think it's a great idea Nikki and part of the reason I started my podcast earlier this year is it's called the derelict podcast and it's really for people if you look up the definition of derelict it means abandoned neglected forsaken somebody that's outcast from society and that's not necessarily just guys obviously in the definition however
00:10:39
Speaker
I have noticed that, let me go back to again, my career, been successful in the finance world. And as you can probably imagine, just think of any finance movie you've ever seen. Yeah. Those are the people that I've been around, right? Um, yeah, big short is a good example. And, uh,
00:11:00
Speaker
A lot of the things in that industry are all about how you're presenting yourself. What is my image? What is my narrative that I want to make sure that other people are picking up when I'm presenting myself to them? And a lot of the times that's a false self. So going back to answer your question, the only places I've seen in very brief
00:11:22
Speaker
detail over my life is there's a few where maybe a guy feels like he can be authentic with a piece of himself, but you said a one really interesting thing.
00:11:33
Speaker
who I'm looking for. So I don't think a derelict is a failure that's living on his mom's couch at age 40 because he's just a loser. He's not doing anything with his life, right? That's not what I'm looking at. I think it is a successful man that has had some failures in their life. They're dealing with stuff and they need a place to go, just similar to what you said. What you said that really intrigued me, Nikki, is you said they don't necessarily have to be broken was the word you used, right?
00:12:04
Speaker
From my experience, when I went through my divorce or business failures or friendship failures or relationship failures or any of the things that I've happened in my life, the spaces that I've seen before are only very, very specific to whatever the little thing is that I'm going through. Let me explain.
00:12:26
Speaker
If I find out that I'm drinking, this is not my story, but if I found out that I'm drinking too much alcohol and I finally admit that I'm an alcoholic, I could go to AA and there are men's only AA groups that can support a man. Huge fan of 12-step groups, by the way. If you're struggling with that, go to 12-step. 12-step is one of the most authentic places I've ever seen where people can be real and true and authentic to themselves. However, from my experience,
00:12:54
Speaker
that doesn't necessarily impact every single area of your life. So I'm walking in as a broken man, as an alcoholic, and now we're dealing with my alcoholism. Now, for anybody that's been in a program like that for a long time,
Media's Role in Masculinity
00:13:08
Speaker
they know that it's not just about alcohol. So you can start dealing with other areas of your life. But I guess my point is, I think it's really hard for a guy that doesn't necessarily feel like he's broken to know where to go.
00:13:22
Speaker
So that's the space I'm interested in, which I think is the same space you're interested in. What if I am a successful finance guy, but I'm going through a divorce?
00:13:30
Speaker
Or what if I'm a successful guy and I'm going through some relationship failure? Or what if I'm a successful guy but I'm going through a bankruptcy? Or what if I'm a successful guy but I'm going through a business failure? I mean, what successful person have you met, Nicky, that hasn't gone through that stuff? There aren't any. Zero. Exactly. Zero. 100%. So where can I find a tribe and a community and people that I can go through that stuff with that have also been through it, but maybe it's not so specific as like an AA to where
00:13:59
Speaker
I don't necessarily feel I can go if I'm not a quote alcoholic. Does that make sense? Thousand percent, my man. Thousand percent. You also said something about media as propaganda. And I want to speak to this because I'm experiencing this in a very personal way.
00:14:32
Speaker
A week and a half ago someone close to me was murdered. And the media is talking a lot of shit about this man. And they are attempting to paint a particular narrative to point him out as a bad guy.
00:14:57
Speaker
The one thing they've said that's truthful is although this man has never been convicted of anything or had a civil damages being awarded against him in court, we don't understand why that is. And then he started to make all kinds of innuendos that he's a bad guy.
00:15:20
Speaker
The first thought that went into my head is there's only one thing you said that was true in your entire set of articles that you wrote about him, is that he's never been convicted of anything and he's never had a civil judgment against him. And the first question that came to my mind, I mean, we're in Canada, right? You're in America. The justice system here is a good one.
00:15:44
Speaker
It's a good one. People generally have a very difficult time getting away with breaking the law. So the first thought that went into my head when they say he's never been convicted of anything and never had a judgment against him is, well, did you ever stop to consider it's because he's innocent? I mean, that's why he was never convicted of anything or had a judgment against him. Did that enter your mind?
00:16:13
Speaker
Or no, it just didn't fit in with your narrative. So we'll just say, I don't know why that is. Well, I know a thing or two about the legal system, judicial system. Prosecutors wanna get convictions, right? They will go after you to get a conviction. The only reason,
00:16:33
Speaker
that they will stop pursuing you is because they believe they don't have enough evidence to get a conviction. Absolutely. Right. Which usually means, usually, not always, but usually means you're innocent. Now, if somebody has had a prosecutor go after them more than once and they've beaten that prosecution more than once, at least one question you ought to ask yourself is maybe these prosecutors
00:17:03
Speaker
have an agenda other than justice. You know what I mean? Absolutely. Coming back to this whole question of media as propaganda because what they're saying about men calling them toxic and bad and wrong really appears to be part of a narrative they're pushing and doesn't have anything to do with the truth. But I'm wondering if you would mind expanding on that.
00:17:32
Speaker
Well, I agree with you. So let's start with this. And you may think that I'm, well, you won't think this Nikki, cause I think I know you well enough by this point, but some of your listeners might think that I might be overly cynical with the next thing I'm going to say, but just bear with me for a second. If you are listening to or watching or consuming the news as a source of information or fact,
00:18:03
Speaker
That is the inappropriate way, the most inappropriate way I can possibly think of to consume news. News is not there for information and fact. News is there in order to get your emotions riled up so that they can sell more news.
00:18:29
Speaker
It is a business just like every other business. Maybe this is an odd example, but take an Apple commercial. One of the reasons Apple and Apple commercials have done so well for so long is that they tie with your emotions. They don't come on the screen and just show you a bunch of statistics about an iPhone. They show people dancing around, having a great time. And when your emotions get clicked,
00:18:57
Speaker
then you wanna purchase what it is. Well, guess what? News is the exact same way. But I've talked to so many different people that I don't think even realize how the news or media is really impacting their beliefs, their thoughts, and that is what is so insidious about it, and that's what's so dangerous about it.
00:19:19
Speaker
Just look throughout history. There's been plenty of other times. If you don't want to look at today because you just want to bear your head in the sand, you're like, no, it's not happening today. Fine. Let's look at the rest of history and how this has happened throughout time. Every single time there's been a government, anyone that wants power, anyone that is a narcissist, word that people love to throw around today.
00:19:42
Speaker
Anyone that is in that position that wants to get more power and more control more autonomy more authority more, etc They use whatever media sources are out there in order to encourage people to do that And here's how you know, at least this is so also just to be really clear here I am NOT blaming this on everybody else and saying I don't do this I do this also I also get caught up in this trap because it's really really good so
00:20:13
Speaker
The one example of this, and there's plenty, but this is the example that loves getting thrown around a lot, is watch or read anything about Hitler's propaganda machine during the Nazi regime.
00:20:30
Speaker
fascinating. You've read so many books, Nikki, I'm sure you've read plenty of books on this, but it is a fascinating story to show how people use that to just slowly kind of dig into your thoughts and just change it just a little bit by a little bit by a little bit by a little bit to all of a sudden now you're saying all men are toxic.
00:20:49
Speaker
Whereas at the beginning, you're like, I love all men. Men are great. Masculinity is wonderful, too. All men are toxic. Well, how did that happen? You didn't just change like that. Maybe you had some bad experiences with shitty men. And that's not what we're talking about, Nikki, right? We mentioned that a little bit on my podcast. If you're a man out there and you're beating people up and you're a piece of shit, great. That's not what we're talking about right now.
00:21:12
Speaker
We're just talking about men trying to have true masculinity. And so back to your question.
00:21:21
Speaker
Media is propaganda. That's what it is. News is propaganda. It's not the spreading of information. Now, there are some news outlets that try to do that, and I think do a decent job. I follow one on Instagram as an example that's just a good news Instagram source that just gives good news around the world. I don't see a lot of propaganda in it, to be honest. It's usually just trying to spread uplifting stories. And I love that. That's great, right?
00:21:50
Speaker
But most of it is there so that you buy more of it. And then the more that you buy, take Facebook or social media as well, same thing, right? They will try to narrow your views and beliefs down so tight that the only thing you ever see is exactly what they want you to see based on your exact beliefs. And if you are sitting there saying, oh my goodness, this is sounding like a conspiracy theory. I'm not that cynical. There's no way this is happening.
00:22:19
Speaker
Not true. Just not true. The only way to remove that. So there's all this conversation about privacy settings, everything else. None of that matters. They have all of your information. The only way to remove it is to go off the grid. That's it. That's literally the only way. I got to tell you, for now, for business reasons, I'm going to continue to stay on social media. But I do have a long term plan to abandon it.
00:22:49
Speaker
I get that. It's really hard, Nikki, like with my podcast and the new business and the book and everything else, like it is the best place to spread information, right? It is the best place to spread kind of what you're trying to do, etc. It's where I get my views. That's where I get podcast listeners, etc. So I don't know how to do it without that. I mean, I could go around and knock on people's doors, but it's not going to be as effective.
00:23:13
Speaker
I agree with you. So for a business reason, I'm on it as well. But man, if I could figure out a way to get off of it and still have the listeners and viewers and everything else, I would tomorrow. No, you will not be able to do that. But I'll tell you that there will be a time where doing this won't be your prime focus. And at that point in time, you can get off of it because
00:23:42
Speaker
Yeah, I just just a real quick so my oldest is 11.
00:23:49
Speaker
And I had been on Facebook and everything before then. And about maybe six months after he was born, I was like, I don't want his entire life on social media from the day he was born. So I deleted all of my social media accounts and I only reinstituted them this last year with the starting of the podcast. I literally didn't have them for a decade. So I would love to get to that point again, where I can get rid of them. But, you know, I want people. Absolutely. You too.
00:24:19
Speaker
I think what you said to start off this segment, which is if you're consuming news for information or facts, you're making a mistake. News is there to rile your emotions, to sell more news. That's the truth. And what happened
00:24:46
Speaker
vis-a-vis the stories written about my murdered friend are proof positive of that. Proof positive. Donald Trump has been calling media fake news since at least 2016. And at first it was jarring to hear that fake news like this America's Canada. Come on. It can't be fake, but he's bang on. He's bang on. It's fake news.
00:25:15
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So your father and a lot of men that are seeking advice and the company of other men are fathers.
Mentorship and Male Perspectives
00:25:36
Speaker
And one of the reasons that they seek the advice and the company of other men is because they want to learn from men so they don't repeat the same mistakes
00:25:45
Speaker
that their parents made on them, their father made on them, and they don't make stupid mistakes that they could avoid. Talk a bit about that. I mean, I agree with you. I'm not sure exactly what you want me to talk about as far as that goes. I guess I'll start with this. I am kind of a stereotypical
00:26:10
Speaker
person that feels like he has to have the experience to learn from it. And that's not always a good thing. I wish it wasn't true. I wish that I could read in books of other people going through things and then it would just impact me before I had to make a dumb mistake myself. But I'm just not that guy. However, what I will say is that if you have a tribe of mentors, to use the title of also a good book if you haven't read it,
00:26:38
Speaker
If you have a tribe of mentors around you, the purpose of having those mentors around you is for people that have gone through things that maybe you haven't gone through yet, or maybe you're in the middle of going through. Even though I'm experiential, I would say that a lot of what I've learned in my life has been from mentors based on previous experience.
00:27:05
Speaker
so that maybe the experience doesn't have to be quite as bad. So example, let me use an example that I used earlier. If you are an alcoholic,
00:27:17
Speaker
or let's say you are drinking a decent amount of alcohol, but haven't decided that you're an alcoholic yet, or you don't want to label yourself that, or you don't like the term, or you don't like owning that term, whatever it is, right? You're just, you're not there yet. You're not getting any sort of help. I'm not saying you have to go to A, you're just not getting any help. You're like, I drink every once in a while and things go awry, but I'm not that bad, right? That's a good sign that maybe you should find a mentor that has also been in that exact spot and see what they think now on the other side of it.
00:27:47
Speaker
So for me, I've dealt with addiction issues in the past. I've dealt with, again, I have a failed marriage. I went through a divorce. I've had plenty of failed businesses, finances, you name it.
00:28:00
Speaker
I don't consider any of those failures that maybe some people would, even though I keep using the term. And the reason why is because a failure is just an experience to learn what to do next. But for myself, I don't get that fully just from my own experience. I get that from my, as a combination of my experience plus maybe somebody else who has gone through it. So you mentioned earlier, Nikki, you know, somebody going through a divorce would be a good example.
00:28:26
Speaker
Well, let me just give you an example from my own life. One of my best friends in the world went through a divorce several years before I did. I thought I was in a good healthy marriage at the time. He went through this very long, his separation was like five or six years before they finally got divorced. It was just hell for him.
00:28:47
Speaker
as he was going through that, I felt like I was there for him. I felt like I was able to support him, et cetera. However, only to a degree, because I'd never been through it before. So there was only so much experience I could bring. I could be there as a listening ear. I could be there as empathetic. I could be there as a good friend, but I couldn't be there to really be like, Oh man, now I understand what you're going through. But guess what? Now I could.
00:29:11
Speaker
So if that guy is going through a divorce and there's a separation and they're now seeing a marriage therapist and they're trying this trial separation, they're trying to figure out what to do with the kids, guess what? I've been through all of that before. And I can tell you the five things not to do because I did them and then gotten a lot of trouble because I did them all.
00:29:29
Speaker
had less time with my kids, got in trouble in court, all that sort of stuff. So yeah, I think for me, it's a combination of experience plus having somebody that has just gone through it. And when I use the term mentor also, they don't have to be older. They don't necessarily have to be wiser in that context. They just have to have gone through it before and gain some wisdom out of it. That's all I'm looking for. I don't care if the person's- Good definition of a mentor.
00:29:58
Speaker
Yeah, like right now, we're talking about my podcast and social media and everything. That's stuff that I'm still learning how to do, which makes me feel old, learning it as a 40-year-old. So guess what? Some of my mentors in that space are much younger than me, and they have much more wisdom on how to do these things than I do. That's OK. That's a good definition of mentors and mentorship.
00:30:28
Speaker
I want to specifically bring the conversation back to men because I think what men today lack and need is the company of other men on a day-to-day basis. It's not about necessarily whether you're dealing with an issue in business and marriage in
00:30:49
Speaker
other relationships with your health, et cetera. It's just the company of other men allows men to be calm and to let their hair down. Men you can trust because otherwise you really need to be on your toes because not every man is one of your men. And if he's not one of your men, you're competing with them out there in the world. You are competing with them. That's number one. And number two,
00:31:17
Speaker
There are tons of, tons of well-meaning women who will come and give you advice as a man that is really well-meaning but completely fucked for you. You know what I mean? Yes, absolutely. You ever experienced that?
00:31:33
Speaker
Oh yeah, for sure. And I've done the reverse too, by the way. I've also given advice to women that really just did not meant like they needed a female, a feminine perspective. So yeah, I completely got that. We're talking here for men and by men, right? So one of the things that I tell men is if you're going through major life issues, you need to be around men, men you can trust. That is the surest and best way to heal you and to get you out of it.
00:32:02
Speaker
And a lot of men push back on, what do you mean? Women are great. They understand relationships better. Yeah, they don't understand men better. They just don't. And that's an important thing for every man to understand, in my opinion. And what I like about you and the conversation we had on your podcast is you're very thoughtful men. You think through what men need right now.
00:32:29
Speaker
And you're doing this podcast, I believe, for the right reasons, because a lot of people would be going, man, I just want a lot of eyeballs and clicks and whatnot. You don't seem to really give a shit about that. You're like, I want to learn and I want to teach to men who need help. And I think that's important.
00:32:48
Speaker
I agree and I appreciate you saying that. Thank you. That's very complimentary. And I completely agree with what you said earlier as well. So, I'll just use an example from my own life. So, you know, when I went through my divorce as an example, a lot of well-meaning women came, gave advice, gave encouragement, and I greatly appreciate all that. I'm not saying that I didn't.
00:33:14
Speaker
And at the same time, there's just something different about a guy being there with you and saying, look, this is who you are as a man.
Therapy and Masculinity
00:33:26
Speaker
So don't let women or the therapeutic model, from my opinion,
00:33:35
Speaker
is very female centric, very feminine centric. So a lot of the times, what I felt even in therapy, marriage therapy, all the different things that I tried was that it was all focused on the feminine energy and how the feminine energy was being attacked. It wasn't focused at all.
00:33:56
Speaker
on masculine energy and how to actually be a true healthy man. Because when a man is not healthy and they're not living in their masculinity, that is when they become actually abusive. And I'm not saying abusive, like everybody throws around the term today, like, oh my goodness, he, you know, went like this, that's abusive. Like everybody says abusive for everything. I mean, abusive, somebody's beating the shit out of you. That's what I mean. When men do that,
00:34:24
Speaker
It's because they're insecure. They're not living in their true masculinity. And in fact, they're doing the exact opposite where they're reacting against that. So what I needed when I went through my divorce was not a woman telling me, well, you need to calm down and be more feminine and be more understanding and listening. No, I needed a man to say, this is who you are.
00:34:49
Speaker
This is who you are in God. This is who you are as a man. Live out these manly ideals, then you can figure out what to do with your marriage. That's what I needed. And I didn't have that. I just had a lot of people come through and be like, oh, well, so glad that you're in therapy and then you're in marriage therapy and you need to be calmer and you need to like tell your wife everything. You need to be an open book. You need to do whatever she wants.
00:35:12
Speaker
You need to sell your car and then you need to just drive a bus to work and then you need to get rid of all your money and like all this shit that I did going through my divorce. Don't do, don't do because just because you're a man, let me just give one small example. Just because you're a man and your wife asks you to leave the house does not mean you need to leave the house.
00:35:36
Speaker
But for whatever reason, we seem to think in this society, like, oh, well, I offended her, I hurt her, so she now gets the house and she gets to make all the rules, everything else. No, that's bullshit. Don't do that. Don't do that. It's the same example. So Bill Burr, who I love as a comedian, does it. Yeah, he's fantastic. And he does a bit on him and his wife getting into an argument and her telling him to go to the couch. I don't know if you've heard this bit or not.
00:36:05
Speaker
But his response is like, no. How many men would say that? How many men, if the woman says, oh, we're in a fight, it's your fault. Go sleep on the couch. Just go to the couch. It's in movies. It's in music. It's in everywhere. Why? Why? Just because I'm a guy and we're in an argument, I now have to go to the couch. I can't be in my own bed. No.
00:36:32
Speaker
I think that's a good example. You go to the fucking couch. Yeah, exactly. If you have a problem, you go to the couch. Bye. Or what gets even worse is that they go through these divorces or like a man, let's say he has an affair, which obviously is a terrible thing. I'm not saying that's a good thing. But then all of a sudden the woman just is like, well, you got to get out of the house. You can't be here. I get everything. Why? Why? If we're in a disagreement and we have issues that doesn't necessarily default to the woman and
00:37:00
Speaker
The court system, as much as it is improved, still favors women from my experience, from everybody else's experience that I've ever talked to. Like the fact that only a few years ago, Nikki, if I went through a divorce, I could only see my kids every other weekend. That's fucked. Yeah, I'm fucked.
00:37:18
Speaker
Beyond how are those kids going to have any sort of positive masculine influence in their life? If I can only see them every other weekend for a dinner or something, that doesn't make any sense to me. Just because you birthed her just because she came out of your, they came out of your body means you get all the rights. No, fuck that. Yeah. And honestly, society has become too, um,
Marriage and Relationships
00:37:44
Speaker
too enamored with divorce is the first option and not the last option. You're not gonna go in through problems. You are not getting a divorce. You can't go there. You gotta go through, we're gonna fix this. The only time you go through a divorce is if you've done everything to fix it and for whatever reason it didn't work. But if people did that, the divorce rate would plummet by 80, 90%. 80, 90%.
00:38:10
Speaker
Absolutely, it's part of the reason why if you look at other countries that have arranged marriages, they still have a higher marriage rate because of the fact that they figure it out. They figure the shit out. And I am a divorced man, so I could easily be cynical about marriage and say, yeah, no one should ever do that. And I'm not because I think marriage and commitment is a beautiful thing. I really do. But it means nothing in our society today. Absolutely nothing. Why would anybody even say vows?
00:38:39
Speaker
at a wedding today that I'll be with you till death do you part, when they're just gonna fucking leave when one small little problem pops up. Amen. Well, as one of my men's coaches said, I'll be with you till death do us part, unless you really, really piss me off.
00:39:02
Speaker
I just laughed my ass off at that. He's right. I would laugh so hard if I went to a wedding and I heard that. Please. That'd be great. That should actually be a real vow. It'd be good. Absolutely. Are you remarried? I am not remarried. No, I have a girlfriend. We've been together for it'll be two years in August. So it's going well. Good man.
00:39:31
Speaker
Josh, you're a thoughtful man. You really think through the issues. You don't just talk out of your ass. And there's a lot of people in this space who talk out of their ass or they spout what they heard somewhere else, which isn't even real.
Encouragement and Leadership
00:39:45
Speaker
It's not something they've experienced for themselves and are interested in helping other people learn. What I can say to you is that a man like you ought to
00:39:57
Speaker
have his voice heard by more men and you should be leading men. And I know we'll have a bit of a chat when this episode is over. And I'm honored to have you come to a sovereign man meeting. I think could be a great place for you to hang your hat and be a man amongst other men. So God bless you, brother. Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for sharing your well considered, well thought out views on manhood.
00:40:27
Speaker
masculinity and men in 2024. Thank you very much, Nicky, for having me. It's been a pleasure. Yeah, brother. Straight up. Straight up a pleasure on my end as well.
00:40:42
Speaker
The other thing is you're pretty funny motherfucker too. I appreciate it. And to be honest with you, Nikki, those two things that you just said have not always been true. They've come with the pains of life have brought that out, right? I just feel like the people that have gone through stuff and they've learned through it and everything else become funnier. They become more thoughtful, et cetera. So I take that as a huge compliment. Thank you very much. Yeah, yeah, you bet. You bet.
00:41:11
Speaker
Thank you for listening to The Sovereign Man podcast. If you're ready to take charge of your life and become the man you've always wanted to be, we invite you to join the movement at sovereignman.ca.