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EP166: Jeff Banman - Confessions Of A Former Counterterrorism Operative
86 Plays2 months ago
Think about a moment in your life when everything falls apart, how do you respond? As men, we often struggle with external validation and internal self-worth but how do we often stop and ask ourselves ‘Are you proud of yourself?’.
The traditional expectations of masculinity are shifting in today’s society and many men are grappling with questions around worth, purpose, and strength. Self-recognition and the value of one’s contribution, no matter the task at hand, are very essential. Fulfilment comes not just from professional success, but from being present in our daily lives and acknowledging the small wins. Whether it’s through work, family, or community involvement, men are constantly faced with the challenge of measuring up – and sometimes, all it takes is recognizing our worth.
Take the first step toward becoming stronger and more grounded in your purpose. Remain focused, purposeful, and grounded even in your own moments of crisis.
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You’re invited to come to a Sovereign Circle meeting to experience it for yourself. To learn more, go to https://www.sovereignman.ca/. While you’re there, check out the Battle Ready program and check out the store for Sovereign Man t-shirts, hats, and books.
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Transcript
Career Beginnings and Firefighting
00:00:01
Speaker
16 years old when I walked into a firehouse and decided I want to be a fireman, became a career guy right after I graduated high school and then got bored with that, needed a new adventure, joined the
Joining the CIA Post 9/11
00:00:11
Speaker
army. Then 9-11 happens and I end up going to work for CIA for several years and had a blast, man. And it's been a crazy experience, but I think my life was not about being those things. At every juncture, it was an opportunity to dive into the human being in a way and through a lens a lot of people have never had and will never have.
Exploring Humanity and Independence
00:00:33
Speaker
a man living in the modern world in a time when men and manhood are not what they once were. You live life on your own terms. You're self-sufficient. You think for yourself and you march to the beat of your own drum. When life knocks you down, you get back up because in your gut, you know that's what men do. You're a badass and a warrior.
Introduction to Sovereign Man Podcast
00:00:56
Speaker
And on the days when you forget, we are here to remind you who you really are.
00:01:04
Speaker
Welcome to Sovereign Man Podcast, where we aim to make men masculine again. I'm your man, Nicky Billoo, and we have a very special guest today, Jeff Banman. Welcome to the show, Jeff.
Diverse Background and Crisis Management
00:01:15
Speaker
Thanks, man. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for coming on the show. Yeah. So, Jeff, you have a heck of a backstory, and you've got a book that you've written, and I love the title. When it all goes to hell, note on crisis and chaos from a CIA owner and terrorism operator.
00:01:33
Speaker
Gosh darn it all. That sounds pretty darn awesome. So tell us your backstory first and foremost, man. And then let's get into the book. Yeah.
Transition from Fireman to Army and CIA
00:01:42
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's been, here's what I say. It's a, for a long time I had up on my LinkedIn profile, you know, just a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.
00:01:52
Speaker
um Listen, this i mean the the life that I've had, I've said this several times, all by happenstance. like This wasn't constant moving to try to get somewhere. It was just kind of one opportunity led to another, led to another, did a thing, knew a guy, ended up here. ah But yeah, i mean the background starts 16 years old when I walked into a firehouse and decided I want to be a fireman, became a career guy right after I graduated high school. and then Got bored with that, needed a new adventure, joined the army, yeah did range battalion reconstitute it, and then back to the fire service for a little while, then 9-11 happens, and I end up working for going to work for CIA for several years and had a blast, man. And it's been a crazy,
00:02:42
Speaker
crazy experience, but I think I gave a keynote back in 2020 and I think in these later years as I've had time to reflect, you know I often say my my life was not about being those things, and not about being a fireman or being an airborne ranger or being a CIA guy, kind of as an operator or anything there.
00:03:00
Speaker
It was really at every juncture, it was an opportunity to dive into the human being in a way and through a lens a lot of people have never had and will never have. And so first book came out earlier this year, working on the second book to come out early next year, or just a few months ago, first book, next book will come out here probably early next year. So yeah, just loving life, man, just being dad and writing and enjoying life.
00:03:27
Speaker
Um, all right. Coolio. yeah So let's dig into your backstory a bit more than 11 happened. And like many people, you decided to answer the call. What was that like for you? Yeah. I mean, it was interesting. I mean, I was actually on duty the night of September 10th, you know, Northern Virginia area about, I don't know, 25 miles from the Pentagon. Uh, and.
00:03:54
Speaker
you know and We ended up a few hours in, kind of deployed resources and assets down to the area. I ended up working down and around the Pentagon for several days. ah so It was a pretty crazy time. i mean I was already in that world, if you will. ah and mean I joined a fire service in 91, 92.
00:04:15
Speaker
well hu So, I mean, that was already, it was already my jam, right? I was already kind of in that world and in that flow. And then 9-11 happens and a unique guy with a lot of unique experience, both from the military and our deployment at Kosovo in 99, plus all the ChemBio stuff I had, just I was an eclectic dude with a bunch of stuff.
00:04:38
Speaker
um And, you know, happened to be working some programs, training some people and people from the agency was there and my recruitment kind of went like, you know, Hey, what are you doing this? You want to come to work for us? Yeah. Six months later, I was in Africa. So, um, you know, nothing dramatically exciting, but ah you know, just to be in that space and be in that world and, um,
00:05:01
Speaker
And then just, the you know, clearly the changes that happened. If 9-11 doesn't happen, I don't go down the path I go down. You know, I'd probably stay in the fire service or in that crisis management world for a longer time. But but yeah, definitely changed the game for a lot of us.
Societal Roles and Challenges
00:05:17
Speaker
Well, you know, throughout history, men have answered the call.
00:05:22
Speaker
when their country, when their society, when their way of life appears to be under attack. 9-11 certainly was that, I would argue that um What's happening today in the United States is an assault on the American way of life. Attempt to assassinate the former president and possibly the next president two times. And the media is not making a squawk about it it it. It strikes me as an assault on the American way of life.
00:05:51
Speaker
um and Men have always answered the call in times like this. And if you could talk a bit about that that, why you believe that is, and why so many men of your generation answered the call back in the post 9-11 era, and how do you think men today can answer the call of keeping the American way of life and freedom alive?
Writing for Men and Creating Identity Safety
00:06:18
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think this is ah this is a pretty interesting issue because in the the next book is I've kind of been, you know, I was writing it when I kind of was had to hit a stopping point and I was kind of banging my head against the wall. And then one night I was praying, it was like, ah i just I felt like the Lord was like, hey, listen, you've already written this other book, you know, the programs, the things like this thing's done, bring this thing together, ah get something out, kind of complete the last period in time. But the next book coming out here is really, I am writing it one to men, two to fathers and three to fathers of sons. Like that's the, that's the structure of it.
00:06:56
Speaker
And you know I talk about it here and when it all goes to hell, but one of the things that I've discovered and why this becomes kind of paramount to our conversation a lot of ways over time is that as human beings, we're really constructed around this safe mechanism.
00:07:13
Speaker
And if you think about it in an ideal scenario, you think about it more like a pyramid, physical safety at the base, in my safe and context. And this is why I'm talking to men about this because not only do we have to create that for ourselves, but it also is our responsibility to create that for our family and the people around us.
00:07:35
Speaker
physical safety at the base, then we step into what I call spiritual safety or safe in self, safe in the essence of who you are, safe in your own identity. Then we go up to the next stage, which is emotional safety, which is safe to express ourselves, right? Safe in expression. And then the tip of the pyramid would be, am I mentally safe? Am I safe in thought? ah And I think if we look at, you know, this has been my interesting look back because I've gone all the way back to the time, all the way back in time on my wall in the other room. I've got a, you know, I brought the yarn, bought the push pins, bought all the cards, and from Garden of Eden to 2100, I have time lined out. And every major incident, every major move culturally, what was going on, um what was happening, where did we start to degrade, what happened at society at different points and times?
00:08:28
Speaker
And I think what you begin to see is you begin to see this this journey over time where we actually begin to invert ourselves. And we're relying more on our mental capacity to keep ourselves safe, which doesn't work. And so we operate in a very kind of unsafe environment. And you know if you look at men's journey over time, and I would say,
00:08:53
Speaker
You know, even if you just take maybe back to the 19th century time and start moving forward, there's this been this move to kind of turn us against ourselves in a way. You know, you begin to make question yourself, well, you're not worthy enough. I mean, I have a, people ask somebody asked me the other day what my idea of success is now. I mean, I turned 50 here in October.
00:09:14
Speaker
um You know, and it's it's it's it's funny now to have gone through this whole equation where I had pinned success to look this way or financial or have these things or do these stuff or operate at this level. You know, man, I mean, all I want to do now is like move dirt and ah hang out with my kids and you know mow the grass or just just care for my immediate area. And I think we've done a pretty gnarly job in really honoring the men that take out our trash that build our buildings, that build our homes that are out you know every day. and And somehow we've made that less successful in a way. I mean, there's always a hope and dream, but I think those are the guys that you see consistently answering the calls because they're in the work. They're doing the stuff. They're you know they're they're going out to fight forest fires. They're taking off their jobs. And you know you want to talk about some gritty people hang out with some wildland firefighters. ah
00:10:11
Speaker
yeah and so You know, I think that the the struggle we all have today is is what we're shown as a perception of what a man, quote unquote, should be or should look like or what success might look like. Like it leaves us constantly striving to this ideal space that when reality, you know I think if you talk to most men, if if if taking out the trash or building buildings or standing on the side, you know flip it if that paid for for their lives, if they could support their family, they they would be thrilled at that.
Men's Stability and Crisis Response
00:10:46
Speaker
They would feel successful to them and they would feel good about who they are and their contribution. you know I think when they come home and hug their kids or hug their wife, like
00:10:56
Speaker
In that moment, they're like, I have everything I need. And I think those are the men often that then come to step forward, right? They they have created up.
00:11:08
Speaker
a family and and and a space that they are stable and they're willing to step forward and willing to do things when when times call, right? And I mean, you see it in them, you talk to them. you know You'll hear the guys that are say, I used to have, ah used to you always have somebody say, oh, I was going to go in the military at some point, but I couldn't or I was sick or I had this or I had that. you know And in my younger years, I was kind of like, oh yeah, okay, well, you know maybe that was an excuse. you know Today,
00:11:37
Speaker
I don't view it that way. you know the the the The desire to support others, does that that that spark is in there. And if it was you know if it came time, I think that they'd step up into wherever they could. So does that make sense? Does that answer your question?
00:11:55
Speaker
That's a good answer. Um, I think we should continue to, to dig into this. Yeah. The point of the men that do the physical work being the ones that are in a way answering the call is a powerful one. Yeah. Um, I think we men by nature want to feel useful. Yeah. A man wants to feel useful. So when he's able to do something physical, he's good. Like, so, um,
00:12:24
Speaker
Earlier today, I'd ordered a bookcase. I got a lot of books and I, a bunch of them, I'd made a bookcase out of a strap and a bunch of milk milk cartons together. And it it was starting to lean forward, like the leaning tower of pizza. So I'm like, no, I need a proper bookcase.
00:12:41
Speaker
So I ordered the bookcase, it came in, and before we came on, I started to take the books out of the milk cartons. And then I jumped up here so we could get our
Defining Masculinity and Usefulness
00:12:51
Speaker
our show going. But when you and I are done, I'm gonna go down, I'm gonna take off the rest of the books out of the milk cartons. I'm gonna get all that sorted out. Then what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna put up the bookcase, and I'm gonna put as many of the books in there as will fit. And then I'm gonna have probably 18, 20 milk cartons that I gotta figure out what to do with.
00:13:10
Speaker
but The plan for that is gonna be, hey, let's get these milk cartons um and put them somewhere where folks can you know use them. I'm like, let's just give them away to some people and say, hey, does anyone need ah um any of these milk cartons? And I might pack a few away myself, um but I'm gonna do this with my hands. I got a broken go right now. So, you know, I could make an excuse and say, no, don't do it. Bring someone else. No, I'm gonna do it myself. It makes me feel useful to do things like this. I think if a man wants to know how to be a man in the 21st century, well, it's honestly the same as how to be a man.
00:14:00
Speaker
20 years ago, 17, 2000 years ago, be useful, useful to your family by providing for them by protecting them by being a leader ah with them, right? ah Useful to yourself by doing shit that needs to get done, useful to your community by stepping up and answering the call, as you've said. So I i like what you said. And A lot of what's being ah marketed to men is go out there and be successful, have a six pack, get lots of girls and um make lots of money, get that six pack going for yourself. That is what it is to be a man. And while I'm a fan of all those things, and you know but if you're single, at least with the lots of girls, if you're not so you're with somebody, not lots of girls, just your woman. yeah
00:14:55
Speaker
They seem shallow. They seem incomplete. by the way's it's It's incompatible. let's sorry yeah yeah so this is This is an interesting thing, right? Because if we look at You take the biggest argument against men, which is most times ah we're not, quote, present or we're distracted or we're single focused. Right. That's that seems to be like a common reoccurring thing. I hear from men in marriages or in relationships or whatever else. And if you actually look at the design of if you watch most men,
00:15:29
Speaker
we are We are undistracted in many ways because we are singularly focused on the present moment of what we are doing. like We have that ability to be present. and when we're you know We don't care what happens tomorrow. Tomorrow is tomorrow. like Functionally, if you really get deal with most men, it's like, okay, cool. Is it on the calendar? Great. then Then it is out of my brain space right now and I don't need to, well, what am I going to wear and what's going on here? and what do i like that doesn't If that starts to creep in,
00:15:59
Speaker
we just crumble. And so I think there's this piece of this, which is this really cool skill that that you're being told a lot of times isn't being present. isn't you're just You're not occupying with all the extras without the extra garbage.
Performance and Overcoming Constraints
00:16:16
Speaker
And you know if you look at the things, like as a man, in order for a man to feel safe, you know and I talk about it in the book, and this is part of the research I did through everything else, there's three common traits I found like in all top performing people, and I didn't... ah cry ah
00:16:32
Speaker
didn't put that to money, just literally like performance metrics of their jobs or careers, whether that was military special operations or pro athletes or business leaders didn't matter. And those three traits were comfort, confidence, and creativity. So it's the willingness and the ability to be comfortable being uncomfortable. Now, that requires a lot, meaning you can step into an environment and be comfortable being there. That requires you to be physically able, physically capable, you know truly sound in yourself, which then leads to number two, which is that confidence, that faith I have in myself that I can rely on my training or you know I launched into the third mode, which is creativity. right And this starts to align where i'm I feel good, I'm okay being here, I'm okay being kind of uncomfortable, but I've got faith in myself.
00:17:29
Speaker
And I will figure it out. I will solve this problem. And so, you know, we have so much other garbage packed on top of us that it begins to break those things down and we don't understand how to deal with uncertainty or fear or, you know, broken trust. And and we tend to always feel very constrained. So this lack of freedom that we have to function and all those things coming at us we don't do well there, right? We want to, let me go dig dirt. Let me go move over the earth. Let me go build something. Let me go fight a fire. Let me go fight a war. You know what I mean? Like that's like, let me do what I need to do here. That's, I think most men are just like, okay. And you know, and that starts to erode stuff, but to your point, it's like, uh,
00:18:19
Speaker
We have not taught our men well in many ways. i'm ah I am a result of that, like in my own failures and my own stuff and the way I grew up. I mean, I grew up with a dad who was top down in his TR6 and riding around in Florida and yelling, show me your, if I could say it, show me your tits, you know, to the women driving by. And that's, and and I always, you know, I remember doing like seven years old and I'm like,
00:18:44
Speaker
It felt gross to me at seven, and it still feels gross to me today.
Energy, Family, and Practical Fitness
00:18:49
Speaker
um But that's we're just not doing a really sound job developing our sons and being an example, not in word and not even in action, but in energy to our children.
00:19:04
Speaker
ah you know And that's when I work with a lot of men now, I say, listen, you want to change the dynamic in any environment, focus on your energy. You know you are the nervous system of your family, of your children, of your spouse, of of everything. It used to be really hard for me. enemy I had one point in my life, I had two daughters, wife, ex-wife, mother, sister. And if I walked in, if everybody was there at one location, holiday time or whatever, and I came in and I was dysregulated or I was disrupted,
00:19:33
Speaker
everybody just went to hell. right And then I'm frustrated that I can't even have a moment that I can't be upset or frustrated or whatever it might be. like my And I would have to look back and I was like, oh, wait a minute. I'm i'm the ah i'm the asshole. I'm the guy. right This is my responsibility because ah if my energy comes into space and dysregulates everyone around me.
00:19:56
Speaker
And so if I take that on as actual responsibility as an honor, right, as a duty to to regulate my energy, to make sure my energy is where it needs to be for the moment that I'm in, I'm not carrying stuff home from work, I'm not carrying garbage into other areas that I'm a stable, you know, comfortable, confident, creative man, then I can navigate what the road comes to me. And so I think we've just done a really gnarly job helping men develop themselves over time and and really living into just unreasonable expectations that create a dissatisfaction in the amazing life they have. you know I mean, I think that that's a big part of it overall. ah you know And then that, if we're stable, therefore fit. you know
00:20:49
Speaker
You need to be physically capable of navigating whatever the conditions of your life are and what it might be. right that's That's the model of fitness. you know Are you capable of dealing with the conditions you know or meeting the expectations of your job or your profession?
00:21:05
Speaker
and the environment in which you live. you know If you can't pick up your kid and get them out of a house, if the house is on fire, pull your wife out or mom out or sister or whatever else, then you need to go to the gym. Do you need an eight pack? I don't know if that makes you feel good. Go for it. You know what I mean? like But the eight pack is not the definer, the physical capability. I know a lot of dudes who are you know perfect physiques and insecure as hell and and really incapable of navigating really gnarly environments. ah And so, you know, the dress if the dress doesn't fit, it doesn't fit basically. So there's a lot to it of that if that works, if that answers your question or that is a good exploration for you. So I'm 57 and up until two years ago,
00:21:57
Speaker
I, uh, over a course of a dozen years, I gained over 50 pounds and, um, I got disgusted with myself. I hired a guy who put guys my age on stage and in six months I dropped 58 pounds yep and then I decided, you know what? I don't like the way I i look. I don't know the way it was off, but didn't like the shape and the look of my body. And I said to him, uh, I'd like to.
00:22:27
Speaker
I'd like to reshape my body. I need some more muscle up top to have my upper body match my my legs. Uh, and so we went on a journey of reshaping my body and doing in bodybuilding competition as a way to measure it. By the time I did the bodybuilding competition, I was down 60 pounds from the original weight. So an extra two pounds, not, not a lot of weight, but I went up 20 odd pounds first. Then I came back down and I like.
00:22:57
Speaker
being shredded and ripped and all that stuff. It feels good, it looks good, but more more more than anything, it's a sense of accomplishment. I mean, I did something that a man my age isn't supposed to be able to do. yeah And I'm really, really proud of him. And that's C3, right? That comfort, confidence, creativity starts to rise. And so I think if we're if we're looking at things around it How do I feel about myself based on how I feel about myself? And if I'm uncomfortable there, okay, man, then just make the change, then do something with it, move down that line. you know but And that's to me, the measure the measure of the of of the result you achieve is really the measure of how important it is to you.
00:23:46
Speaker
You know what I mean? If you were wanting a six-pack or wanting that physique because you it was external of you, you'd have never gotten there. we'd We'd be having a podcast and you'd be going, I've been working on this thing for about a year and I've been trying and I'm keeping going, but I'm going to get there. and And I'd be like, yeah, man, cool. So thats who's that for? you know If it's for you, you're you'll get there. and And I think that's a unique thing that unique advantage men have.
00:24:13
Speaker
and And women have their own advantages. This isn't a thing, but just basically talking to the audience. If if you as a man want it, you will figure it out. If you want to produce a result in your life for yourself you know or for your family, you will figure it out. And if you're not, then it's not that important to you.
00:24:35
Speaker
It's not on your radar. It's not just stop chasing it. You know, you're just spending energy that is costing you way more than you've got basically. ah Yeah. I mean, I, threw yeah, I mean, that's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, I think these are the things, man. It's like,
00:24:54
Speaker
Dude, live a happy life. Enjoy your family. I mean, I, you know, during my time with the agency, I wasn't around for the girls that much. and I was gone back and forth and this and that when they were younger. And you now I've got a little man at six about to be seven. And that's my focus. I'm dad first and I write second. And I'm creating my life so that he's got all of my attention whenever he's with me. ah Because I've realized that when i When I actually give him my attention, what I'm doing is I'm being with him in the experience of his life.
Being Present for Family and Career Decisions
00:25:27
Speaker
And you know and and we're in those moments, he scores a goal in soccer. He turns to look, dad's paying attention. We share a moment. I'm excited for him. He's proud of himself. Bam, we're good. Turns to look, dad isn't paying attention. That goal just diminished significantly.
00:25:45
Speaker
Right. And so like just, just locking into that space of, okay, where am I giving my time and attention and where am I focused and how am I, how am I taking care of myself and am I, am I capable? Can I be relied on?
00:26:01
Speaker
in this moment, right? That's the question. if If you're listening, you know, it's like, okay, if it all went to hell right now, are you reliable and trustworthy and capable of navigating whatever is there? And if not, then there's your there's here's the answer to your question. This is kind of how I look at it.
00:26:35
Speaker
I'm fascinated by that. It's not a sexy as it sounds. What was your mission? like What did you need to to do? I mean, a lot of our responsibility, we had a unique office. A lot of our responsibility was ah Working with friendly foreign partners or developing resources and, you know, developing people to go places I couldn't go, basically, and do things I couldn't do. And so, you know, a lot of that ah just around the world, that's that's about <unk> about what we get, right, developing
00:27:15
Speaker
um counterterrorism teams and organizations and intelligence operations around the world. so oh And was this intelligence gathering, did it include kind of operations to actually go and and fight people and get involved in that? No, no, no. I mean, that's, you know, that's not, ah yeah that wasn't our role. You know, I mean, it's it's kind of like, it's like being a reconstituted in the middle, in the military. If you're in a gunfight and reconstituted, you did something wrong or, you know, your job is to go in and leave and nothing.
00:27:47
Speaker
Um, a lot of our job was to gotten and and bring a unique set of skills to solve kind of complex problems where, you know, officers are in the field, uh, needed support or chief of station or deputy chief of station. You know, they needed support and you know, we get a call and then we figure out what's going on and and off we go. Uh, you know, we did a lot of work, you know, in Iraq, 2005, six, uh,
00:28:15
Speaker
we were producing about 85% of the actual intelligence for TF green while we were there. So um that means we were busy, you know, identifying and targeting threats basically. So, you know, there's some of it. And then the the cool, at least for me, the cool part kind of after I started stopped traveling the world a little bit, um that's where I started to,
00:28:43
Speaker
work and develop some of these methodologies that are in the book, you know and then develop them post after I left the agency on how we train in a more behavioral response pattern. What's going on? How do I perceive what's happening internally so that I can navigate the world in front of me? Because it's not all. I mean, bombs, bullets, and stuff, that's that's a fraction of the operations that occur out in the world. Sure, it's sexy. and um whatever, but there's so much that goes on. Just being present in a foreign environment can be dysregulating for some people. And then and so a lot of that work was how do we train people to be more effective
00:29:26
Speaker
to understand what's going on inside them so they're maybe projecting the right thing at the right time in the right moment. There was a lot of that work and that's where a lot of this understanding of human behavior generates from. And that's kind of what I talk about in the first half of the book is all the nervous system regulation stuff and all the things that we were able to identify during those times and then post that time with Naval Special Warfare and work back at USASOC and a few other places. So what made you decide to leave the CIA and get into private life?
00:29:56
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it was ah there was there came a point we've gotten at the girls mom and I got divorced, relocated to California and. ah And the travel was just becoming really cumbersome. And I didn't want to travel around the world anymore at that point. ah And my office required like you had to do X percentage of time out in the world to do stuff. So I couldn't really stay in that office anymore. And then I was invited to come ah to the farm and begin to take
00:30:26
Speaker
ah Basically, the the offer was they wanted me to take start taking each of the operational programs ah from CIA and then start to rework them and fine tune them in the methodologies I developed, which would have been rad. right To be the guy that got to do that, that would have been a pretty rad thing.
00:30:44
Speaker
um but i would have not been around my kids i mean i you know long courses a year i mean i would have been i just seen him a couple times a year at least for the first five years they were probably five and seven during that time and i just wasn't willing to do that man my career was not that important to me um and So I, I stepped away from the agency and built a company and, you know, we did a lot of work at Naval Special Warfare, ah some back at USASOC and a variety of other groups. And so I kind of, I kind of got to do what I was enjoying doing this behavioral process, the behavioral training programs, ah the human performance stuff. I got to take really what I loved and what I learned and then provide that in other areas and other contexts. And so that was the transition.
00:31:34
Speaker
good for you, man. That's noble to want to do this, to be around your kids and then turn it in turn turn the lemonade like lemons that life gave you and make lemonade with it. I think that's pretty good. Yeah, man. I think that's what you that's what you do. right That's how you navigate life and and I think you find When you begin to find real satisfaction in things, you know being home with your children, being connected, or um real satisfaction in your contribution, I'll give you... a There's a oh family that lives below me here in the complex we live in, a mom and two sons, one's like 19, I think he's 23.
00:32:13
Speaker
ah You know, 23-year-olds kind of figuring out life, and but he got a job here in the complex, so he does maintenance here in the complex. And my son and I, almost every night, we go out there at the Frisbee here in the area where we're kicking the soccer ball. He'll come out and hang. Just a good kid, right? Just a good kid. And Dee and I were walking one morning, kind of doing our morning sensory walks, and we walked by the pools, and he was out cleaning the pool.
00:32:38
Speaker
And I told him this later, but I leaned down to Dee. I said, hey, man, see Ryan, check him out, man. He's taking care of us. you know He's making sure the pool's set up for us later today. He's taking care of the the people here that need something fixed in their house. you know he's really like He's helping create our community. He's a good dude.
00:32:58
Speaker
He's a great dude, right? and And he and I were sitting and I kind of, you know, no dad growing up. And so I kind of sat with him one day and I said, man, I want to tell you what I told little man the other day. and And I want you to know that I appreciate the work you're doing. I see you working. You know, I'll sit on the balcony in the morning, have my coffee and he's out clean. um Part of the job is get the pool clean and I look over overlook the pool. And I just said, dude, you are keeping our community safe and comfortable.
00:33:29
Speaker
And so if you ever feel like this isn't the job or kind of embarrassed or whatever else, because we've got some college kids in here, you know, and he's in that age and I get where that kind of can feel like maybe he doesn't have the best jobs yet or something else. I'm like, dude, I'm proud of you, man, to take that work on, to to do this and do it the way you are doing it. ah You're an example to my son and he was just like, there's a total shift in it. And his energy, yeah. Yeah.
00:33:59
Speaker
Yeah. And so I think those are the those are the things we need to be just dropping nuggets. we you know Older guys to younger guys who are, they're not grinding it out. Cool. Yeah, you're grinding it out, but man, you're doing the work. You're doing what needs to be done and you're taking you're providing something for me and I appreciate that.
00:34:21
Speaker
And I think the more we, as men, do that with each other, because that's that's the only place recognition can come from. You know, mom can be like, I'm proud of you. You're doing a great job, honey. And he's going to go to work and feel like, oh, I'm just working ground maintenance of 23. I should have this, or I should be there. i should You know, he's going to be living in that. But for another man who really has no bearing in his life to say, hey, son, I'm proud of you. Thank you.
00:34:49
Speaker
you know You're an example for my son. That lands, right? and And I think we need to be doing more of that. That's more of that sovereign space. It's like now he gets to own his work and his commitment. um And if he doesn't love the job, he doesn't love the job, but he's still doing it well.
00:35:11
Speaker
I'm a very ah Touched by this story of this young man, dude my yeah own son is 18 and He was all set to go to university this this year and In the summer he started to work ah for the The the man who was my coach and got me to get in shape Yeah, man as a company. He's got 15 people working with him and
00:35:46
Speaker
And I had my son do a few workout sessions with him and the two of them got along and he said to me, I'd like to, you know, I'd like to offer your son a job. And I said, yeah, great. And my son was like, yeah, great. He wanted to study kinesiology and a month and a half into it. He came to me and his mom and he said, um I want to, I want to work. I don't want to go to university right now. Yeah.
00:36:12
Speaker
I want to work for this guy. And he said, I think I'll learn more here about the subject of kinesiology than I would go into school and let's take a year. But honestly, I don't know that I need to go to university at all. I want to work. And I talked to his mom and I'm like, I agree.
00:36:32
Speaker
The university isn't what it was back 30, 40 years ago for us. yeah help It's becoming indoctrination camp to turn your kids into into little Marxists. So and I'm not down with that. I'm not down with all that woke indoctrination bullshit and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on that. And if he wants to work great, I told him, here's the deal.
00:36:54
Speaker
Half your money goes to investments and you're going to have to study. And I'm, you know, I'm going to pick some programs for you to look into and study, but other than that, yeah, I'm good. So kids working seven days a week. He goes there to the gym. He's there at 6 a.m. every day.
00:37:15
Speaker
um He's, you know, he gets paid based on the clients he trains and he's not training a lot of clients right now. So he's not making a lot of money, but he's there. He's watching, he's learning. It's an apprenticeship.
Lessons from Early Work and Personal Growth
00:37:33
Speaker
and that is answering the call. That right there is what we miss. that Listen, i I would rather sit here and tell you stories ah about slinging pizzas at pop at at papa or at Domino's you know at 15 and eight months and 16 and 17 and what I learned in that mechanism than anything that happened at CIA, honestly.
00:37:57
Speaker
like humping golf bags on the golf course, working with Scott Jenks, crawling in sealing pipes, you know working video when i before I could get a work permit and have a job job, you know out working as a plumber's assistant, like doing those things. And for me, you know that like we need to remind each other that that he's answering a call. He felt that and and and could see a path for himself that way. And he's much more likely, if that path doesn't turn out, to then make the next better choice you know here and there. And he will learn. And you know if the education becomes important, my guess is in a few years, he'll figure out how to do it online while he's got his client base, while he's doing this, because then it's important. That's ah that's an indicator of success to me right there. The willingness to be like, hey, dad, hey, mom,
00:38:52
Speaker
That's not where my heart is. I'm not chasing fairy dust, but I want to work. I want to be in the experience of my life now, whatever that might be. And if you take the characteristics, my guess is he's a kid that if we had to, you know, if we had a, you know, World War III kicked off, he'd be somewhere in line going, I, you know, Jeffrey A. Ben and do solemnly swear to protect him. Like, like that's the intrinsic element that i It saddens me when I hear guys be like, I missed my chance or I should have gone in to do this. And there's something, you can see the kind of self shaming that occurs because they didn't go in the military or they didn't do these things or they did. And we've created that as something like, I'm more valuable than the guy that takes the trash out. No, the guy that takes the trash out doesn't take the trash out work, you know what I mean, period.
00:39:50
Speaker
And so I really, I'm kind of on this mission to like re-plain just the context of men's contributions to life and some real, you know, and and that to me, sorry to interrupt you, but that's what that feels like to me. He answered that call like you were talking about. That's the intrinsic element in the system that matters. I appreciate you um revealing that to me because I instinctively understood that, but I hadn't given words to it the way you just did. But yeah, I'm very proud of him. he's He is the most together 18 year old I've ever met.
00:40:38
Speaker
A period of my life yeah in my life and he's my son. Yeah, which is rad. Yeah. Yeah, yeah that's it's rad. It's rad, man. It's freaking rad. Can I ask you a question? Because I started doing this with a little man a long time ago and I think it needs to start at any age. Have you ever asked him, have you ever just kind of been hanging out like that dad-son moment and been like, hey man, are you proud of yourself?
00:41:03
Speaker
No, I haven't, but I should. Dude, i asked I asked little man that, i that is my and I do it with the girls too, i and I rarely say I'm proud of you. My first question, if he does something, scores a goal in soccer, or does something really cool, or pulls something off, my first question is, dude, are you proud of yourself? And he's like, yeah, and I'm good, because I am too. You know what I mean? And I add mine on the back end, because what's more important in his future is that he knows what it feels like to be proud of himself. And this is an opportunity there, dad. I think you can be like, hey, I did this crazy podcast with this crazy dude. And I want to know, are you proud of yourself? Because if he's not, you can help him get there because he damn sure should be. Yeah, I think he is.
00:41:53
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, I think he probably is. He probably just doesn't think about it. Most of us don't, man. I mean, it's taken me 50 years to figure that one out. That's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's, ah it's really nice. And I, when, when, when, when Douglas does something and I mean, he will turn around and be like, I am so proud of myself. And I'll be like, dude, I'm so proud of you too, man.
00:42:19
Speaker
That's awesome. Yeah. You know, one of the reasons I have a podcast is because I get to learn from my guest. yeah it's It's a little bit like a free coaching session for Nicky. When I ran Mindset Radio for years, I know that. When I ran my podcast for years, it was like that. It was like, wow, I'm getting some really good info right now. Yeah. yeah yeah yeah yeah the That's one of the things that I really love about hosting two podcasts yeah is yeah I get to
00:42:58
Speaker
learn from my guests. And when I do a solo episode, it's an opportunity to think out loud. Jordan Peterson said that talking is thinking. The way most of us talk ah think is we talk to people. And sometimes just talking to an audience out there in in in in the great void of the internet is a wonderful way to think and test my ideas out on me. Yeah.
00:43:26
Speaker
you know Oh, dude, I'm the same. Well, i have to I have to kind of be in conversation. You know, it's interesting that, I mean, that's how if you look at, you know, and it it occurs somewhere between like by six, seven ish, late seven ish, you know, everything prior to that is but is what will become the internal dialogue.
00:43:49
Speaker
Yes, like so kids talk out loud and then we get quiet because we're told to be quiet because we do all these things and we stop talking and so it turns internal and Yeah, man. I love it. I love it's a it's a beautiful exploration right wrong or indifferent Whatever we come up with who knows but but it's important Yeah, Jeff I ah
00:44:16
Speaker
um'm I'm gonna order a copy of your book and I'm gonna read it. It's a fantastic, fantastic book. The concepts that you've talked about are valuable and important and I really, really have enjoyed this conversation with you. I think you're a bright man. You've thought deeply about some issues that are important to men of all ages, but especially to young men. And I like it. You're just, you're a good dude. So I just wanted to tell you. Hey man, I appreciate that man. Just trying to, haven't always been just trying to, just trying to be a better man every day, you know, be a better dad, be a better human.
00:45:01
Speaker
You know what? David Goggins talks about me versus me. He doesn't compete against anybody else. He competes against himself. And if who I am this week is ah better than who I was last week, then I'm winning. And if who I am this week is not better than who I was last week, that I'm losing. And yeah it's that simple. It's that fucking simple, really. Yeah. And and it's ah I'm not the benchmark. don't Nobody wants to be me. I promise you, you do not want to be me. you know um And I don't want to be anybody else. like I want to be the better version.
00:45:46
Speaker
You know, and I i tell a little man, i I'll laugh at him like, dude, you're just the better version of me. I hope you understand that. You know, you're smarter than I am. You get it faster than I am, you know? So, and I just, he drives the train and I just ride 66 year old with wisdom. That's, that's how I look at it. Amen. Amen.
00:46:04
Speaker
Now, my my sons are teenagers, so I'm not um not encouraging him in that fashion. I'm challenging him and telling him to get better. And I think that's why at some point, but boys respond better to challenge what they need.
00:46:20
Speaker
Well, and I'm already seeing it, you know, we were out because I was kind of, we were out playing because he started playing soccer. So we're out running the other day and and we're kind of, and I'm not going full force to kind of let him, you know, feel like he's in that space. And then he turned to look to me and he's like, he goes, you need to, you I want, I need you to run faster. He goes, can you start running? So when you run with me, you can run faster. And I was like,
00:46:44
Speaker
I mean, I could just start running faster when we run. And he's like, yeah, I said, okay. So now when we go, I don't, I don't, I don't really throttle back, you know, if it's time to go. And I'm like, come on, and I'll turn around and be like, this come on, buddy, let's go. And so I think he's already starting to experience that little bit. of I need a, I need a trend line to follow. Yep. Yep. Yep. Every man needs to be challenged. Every man needs to be pushed because that's what wakes up the masculine essence within him.
00:47:15
Speaker
that'll have him answer the call. That's good. Jeff, thanks for coming on the show, man. yeah man Thanks for having me here. And the book's called When It All Goes To Hell. That's book number one. And book number two will be coming out when it comes out and come back on the show. Will do. Will do, brother. All right, man. Thanks for coming on the show. God bless you. And that's all we have.
00:47:38
Speaker
Thank you for listening to The Sovereign Man podcast. If you're ready to take charge of your life and become the man you've always wanted to be, we invite you to join the movement at sovereignman.ca.