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EP163: Matt Boudreau & Michael Ostrolenk - How To Raise & Educate Sovereign Children
96 Plays21 days ago
Repeat guests, Matt Boudreau and Michael Ostrolenk are back for this panel episode discussing how to educate men—both adults and boys—in a way that fosters independence, independent thinking, and personal sovereignty. In a world where societal systems are failing to truly empower individuals, this episode explores how men can take conscious control of their own education and how parents can raise their children to be self-reliant, thoughtful.
Michael Osterling, with a background in education policy, shares his expertise on the current educational landscape, while the panel delves into solutions for guiding the next generation. Matt, Michael and Nicky discuss the issue of practices that judge children solely on their ability to repeat information and instead advocate for nurturing independent, thoughtful individuals. We also explore the "factory settings" that contribute to a child's development—such as sleep, exercise and nutrition—and how these factors impact their ability to learn and grow.
Matt and cofounder, Tim Kennedy, are the creators of Apogee Strong, a mentorship program with a ‘project and challenges’ philosophy where students work with mentors who exemplify the integrity our children and communities need.
Email: [email protected]
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Michael Ostrolenk is the creator of Resilience Optimized, to help men achieve a balance between strength and compassion.
Learn more about Resilience Optimized, just visit the website. https://www.resilienceoptimized.com/
You’re invited to come to a Sovereign Circle meeting to experience it for yourself. To learn more, go to https://www.sovereignman.ca/. While you’re there, check out the Battle Ready program and check out the store for Sovereign Man t-shirts, hats, and books.
Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, how old are you? You're eight? Oh, well then I know exactly what you need to know and I'm going to judge everything based on how well you play my game of you know regurgitate this. And if you don't regurgitate it the right way in the right manner, or I'm going to call you behind.
00:00:16
Speaker
whatever that means. Do you imagine that if someone goes through like a matineur type of program that they will be so awake to programming and propaganda that they'll be less likely to be influenced by that because there already are sovereign and free and thoughtful human beings. What do things look like at home? What does the sleep cycle look like? What does exercise and movement look like? What does sunlight look like? What does the food situation look like? I want to talk about those factory settings first. but We want our children to be Learn to be critical thinkers not to be indoctrinated any particular ideology or particular philosophy. Wait a second Nikki Are you saying are you saying that kids are people? Oh my god, right
00:01:02
Speaker
You're a man living in the modern world in a time when men and manhood are not what they once were. You live life on your own terms. You're self-sufficient. You think for yourself and you march to the beat of your own drum. When life knocks you down, you get back up because in your gut, you know that's what men do. You're a badass and a warrior. And on the days when you forget, we are here to remind you who you really are.
00:01:33
Speaker
Welcome the sovereign man podcast where we aim to make men masculine again. I'm your man Nikki Baloo And we have two very special guests forming a panel with me today Michael Osterling and Matt Boudreaux welcome men ah thanks nicky to See you guys I got the wrong I got the wrong color shirt memo, but I Got i feared that man good memo there you go there you go there it is there why send me your address. I'll send you a sovereign man shirt. All right, so So men, today's topic really is taking a deep dive in helping men, grown men, adult men, educate themselves ah consciously, and also helping ah parents, men, women, fathers, mothers, educate their children, in particular young men, in a conscious way so that they're sovereign, they've got agency, they can think for themselves.
00:02:30
Speaker
Because God knows ah our society at large is failing them big time in that. So Michael, you've got a background in education policy. Why don't you talk a little bit about your background and what you've seen in that world and what some of your thoughts are on these issues?
00:02:48
Speaker
Yeah, so in this, I'd love to, like, lead the the San Diego conversation with Matt and ask him questions. Matt, are you familiar with teen screening? Do you remember teen screening? Back about screen about a decade ago. So it was not surprising.
00:03:04
Speaker
that you might not know about it, but it's the effort that led me into the education space at the federal level that was driven to the state level. The SAMHSA, the Substance Abuse Mental the Health Administration, we actually put together a left-right coalition in opposition to teen screening. The federal government was kind of pushing it onto the states. And teen screening was a computer test that we got in schools, 20 questions. And if you answered them in a particular way, the child got put into the psychiatric, psychological domain.
00:03:33
Speaker
Which is insane for saying these words, insane for many different reasons. But you're basically putting children in to get really diagnosed as an assessment for a wide variety of different conditions and then medication and medications over medication.
00:03:49
Speaker
And not to say that any particular child might not need psychiatric help, but I'm not saying that at all. But this is just like a, you know, throw all the kids on a train, and push them into psychiatry. And we know that there's problems with anyone with psychiatric medications, let alone tons of psychiatric medications a lot of these kids are now on. And Teenscreen was one of the ways that kind of a vehicle for that effort to unfold. And we just saw it for many different reasons. The 10th amendment, the federal government, she had my role in that kind of stuff just from a more libertarian constitutional perspective. But as a trained second therapist, I'm like, this scared the crap out of me. But if you take a child who at 9am takes the test, they get into a fight with their girlfriend or their boyfriend, give them the test at noon, completely different answers. like you you You can't determine someone someone's fate, or begin to determine someone's fate, I should say, by 20 questions on a computer.
00:04:39
Speaker
And then put them into the second or second. So, yeah, I'd like to start there. Like, I know, Matt, I love your work, and I know you you think and and talk a lot about, like, the ills of our culture, the ills of the institutions, the education institutions in which you are afraid to be involved in that. Think about what you just said as a premise that we can give some sort of blanket assessment with 20 questions and then we can go, okay, we've got you figured out at this point. And so we've got a path for you, right? And that's a microcosm for the system as a whole. Hey, how old are you? You're eight? Oh, well then I know exactly what you need to know and I'm gonna judge everything based on how well you play my game of you know regurgitate this. And if you don't regurgitate it the right way in the right manner, I'm gonna call you
00:05:29
Speaker
behind, whatever that means. right And I'm gonna tell everybody you're behind and then we're gonna do the same sort of examinations for, you know we're gonna test you now, quote unquote, for ADHD. Let's see, you're seven. Are you bored listening to somebody that you don't know and don't have a relationship with, talk about stuff that doesn't matter to you? You are? Oh my gosh, well, forget the fact that you're like every other human.
00:05:57
Speaker
who could care less, listen to something they don't care about from somewhere that they don't know, forget, no, what it probably means to you, seven-year-old, is you have a methamphetamine deficiency. We better get you started. right like i mean and and Is that a thing, a methamphetamine deficiency? Is that really a thing? and like We go down the rabbit hole of how quickly do we want to say ritalin for everybody? right and that's But I won't call it how it is, because sometimes it's just that reframe for people to realize what's actually happening. right Definition of terms matters.
00:06:27
Speaker
It matters, man. Socrates says the beginning of wisdom is the definition of terms. So let's define these terms, right? What does ADHD mean? What does it really mean? What are the real symptoms? How do you really get it? How do you really get rid of it? Is it real in general? So what we're talking about is a system that doesn't like questions. And so the best way to examine it is to ask all the freaking questions. Hey, by the way, that segues into all the stuff we're going to talk about, about you know what it means to be educated in general.
00:06:57
Speaker
all about those questions matt's ever sure to you but like i used to do a can't speech on ad d and i'll talk about like eight or nine different factors parents should consider before even considering but their children on medicaid adds a lot of the state and so some of the same stuff you just mentioned like Is the institution actually organized correctly for the needs of your individual child? What's your diet and nutrition look like with a child? You know, what's their fitness and movement practices? What's their day-night cycle look like? Are they sleeping? Lots of questions. And the one that that was always and most interesting to me outside of the institutional question around our education versus schooling system was I believe that a subset of our species needs to and genetically organize around seeking novelty. They're the ones that help us adapt over time.
00:07:41
Speaker
You want a subset to be bored in seeking new things, but the ones that suffer things and move our culture in a positive, more pro-social human direction. And to consider, like, if that's true, and I'd be curious on your take on that, let's drug that out of existence. It's not only bad for the children being drugged out of existence, it's bad for our culture and our species. No longer on that. Love your take on that. I the i think the only thing, and and you didn't explicitly say this, I don't know if we agree or disagree, but I think more people are in that category than not. That's that's where I lean. I mean, I really do. i you know And I quote them often, but John Taylor Godot says, you know I've come to the conclusion that you know ah genius is as common as dirt. And man, I'll tell you, in two decades working with families all over, I tend to believe the same as long as what you alluded to earlier, those factory, what I call the factory settings are in place.
00:08:36
Speaker
What does, you know, and that's the first thing, wow, this isn't my my kid, this is my kid. Cool. Let's take a look. what ah What do things look like at home? What does the sleep sky you know cycle look like? what is um What does exercise and movement look like? What does sunlight look like? What does the food situation look like? I want to talk about those factory settings first. I'm going to go ahead and be super frank and honest, but how many um you know How many times are you jabbing them up with the new jab of the month and you know kids now get 82 vaccines versus when we were born um versus our parents, right? And so cool. Does does anybody wanna ask about potential side effects of that? And I'm not gonna go down, it like you go down your own rabbit hole, but shouldn't we ask those questions, right? Why always dive into what are those factory settings? And if those are there, I tend to believe most kids will lean towards exactly what you just said.
00:09:30
Speaker
Most adults too, if you think about it. I mean, we don't want to be bored out of our goddamn trees. Wait a second. Nikki, are you saying that kids Are people? Oh my God. Right? What a weird thing because we taught the way we treat it. It's like they're practicing to be people rather than people who just have less practice, right? So that's the thing. That's good. I like that. There are so many things that I can, I try to take parents back to. Okay, cool. You got all this, my kid, this, my kid, this might get cool. And what would you do in the exact same situation right now? Oh, my kid's behind. Okay, cool. Are you behind?
00:10:09
Speaker
Well, that doesn't make any sense for me. It doesn't make any sense for you because it doesn't make any sense to have that conversation as a human species. So it doesn't make sense for your kid. What grade are you in? Nikki, what grade are you in? That's like a weird, you're like, dude, what are you talking? That's a weird question. Yeah. Cause it's a weird question in general. It only exists in this weird little bubble of a world that we've created that doesn't translate to any freaking thing else.
00:10:32
Speaker
We tell you that's the only thing that matters to get you ready for this other thing. It's asinine. But isn't it the education system based on ah the Prussian educational model from the time of Otto von Bismarck back in Germany, wasn't it designed basically to beat out individuality out of the people that were in it and to turn them into good little soldiers fighting for the Kaiser, you know?
00:10:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's a behavioral management system. That's what it is. It's not an educational system. It's behavioral management. And that's, you know, and again, God bless all of you teachers who are listening to this. Please don't hear me say, I have something against you. I do not. You're probably a very good person. You're there for a good reason. You love those kids. And I think that's important. And there are people, there are some of those kids. You're the best person they're ever going to see. Um, and that's great. I need you there. Um, and, and I'm your biggest fan and supporter.
00:11:28
Speaker
But I'm not going to pretend the system we operate in is meant for human development. that's It's not at all. It's behavioral management. right G.K. Chesterton had one of my favorite quotes of all time and talks about the fact that education is not a series of subjects. It is the transfer of a way of life. So if we look at things from that perspective, then me as a parent, my job is to transfer my way of life to my three kids.
00:11:54
Speaker
and So everything we do is is transferring our way of life and what's what's normal in our household becomes normal for them. That is their education. It's now normal for them to raise animals because we live on a farm and so they're raising animals. It's normal for my son to learn how to chop trees because we live on a farm and sometimes the trees fall down on our electric fence and we got to fix it.
00:12:15
Speaker
but Those things are normal. It's normal for them to look at a P and&L because they are coming along with me and taking a look at what what does that do for work and what does that business look like. All these things are normal. What we got to remember too is anybody we decide to partner with, we're also giving them a nod saying, well, you also get to transfer your way of life to my family. I'm very intentional about who comes over to our farm. I'm very intentional about My son goes to to kickboxing and goes to wrestling. ah We go to American top team out here because I love the coaches. Their old school mentality, they're very, they have, they they live by a code, you know, that that code. So man, I'm all about it. Transfer that into my kid, you bet. That goes along with the gymnastics center that my daughter goes to. The ranch my other daughter works on, like all of those, I'm giving them the nod.
00:13:05
Speaker
I don't give the government a nod to pour into my kid. So the government's schooling, where they get to pour into them eight hours a day in a behavioral management program designed by the government. No, man, I'll pass it on to you. I have a question for you, Matt. when When did you wake up to schooling versus institution or schooling versus education? If I'm honest, I woke up at four.
00:13:32
Speaker
um and Which is which is the like, I mean, at four years old, I verb was someone November baby. So I started kindergarten at four, right? Yeah, go November. I know you and I are close. So i remember I remember very clearly sitting in kindergarten. I remember Mrs. McShane was my teacher. She was from Australia. She was Ras first time I'd heard an Australian accent. Beautiful woman. She was fantastic. And I remember,
00:13:59
Speaker
Early on, a couple weeks in, they grouped everybody together and I remember sitting at at a table and I remember I was in the red group and I remember looking around and I'm like, okay, interesting. Those kids can't read at all. I've already seen that. Those kids over there barely can read, but they're better than them. Those kids over there can read okay and all of us read very, very easily. Interesting.
00:14:24
Speaker
Okay, they're grouping us together by ability here. Huh. I wonder if they're always going to do that. I remember that going through my head at four. And then I remember, I remember at eight years old and I remember Mrs, it was in Mrs. Carlson's class in third grade. And I remember going, man, I've got this game down. Like I'll never get anything less than an A.
00:14:44
Speaker
And I won't have to try. Not because I'm smart, but because I saw the pattern. right So I figured that out early. I just didn't have any idea, any way to tie it to how detrimental that was until I started working in the system later. right I saw it a little bit at Stanford. I saw a little bit in the public schools, the private schools. you know And then ultimately with my own kids, it's like, well, they're not going to experience it. So I've got to figure out something else. but I saw it earlier. And I'm curious for you, Nick, you, too, because, you know, you know, the new masculinity, the men's movement is really important to you and your own of that. When did you start thinking about education as a piece of the men's movement? You know, um when I started to see what the school system was doing to young boys, because my my sons went to went to public school and it was
00:15:38
Speaker
It was seven, eight years ago that it started to really become obvious. they They were becoming more open about how committed they were to indoctrinating kids. And about four years ago, I had a conversation with one of my son's teachers in a Catholic private school that I sent them both to. And this guy was absolutely woke.
00:16:07
Speaker
absolutely didn't care what I thought. I called him out on one of the books on his reading list that was written by an anti-Catholic bigot. And I go, you're a Catholic school. Why is this book by this anti-Catholic bigot there? You shouldn't have it. And I told him, I told you about some books that I thought would be good to have on your list. Did you even look at them? And he goes, no, I didn't. Like, how dare you even give me your opinion on what should happen and how it should happen? And like, yeah, I ain't got time for that crap.
00:16:33
Speaker
And so I started to make sure, I wasn't gonna pull my kids out of school, but I started to make sure that i that I was going to be giving them my opinion on the state of the world. And I started to tell them, you don't need to listen to everything your teachers tell you. They're often wrong. And if they're left and they're woke and they're leftist, don't listen to them at all. And you can tell them, ah, your father told you so. And if they have a problem with it, give them my cell number, tell them to call me. And both my boys were like, whoa, okay.
00:17:03
Speaker
Never came to that, none of the teachers called me, but I believe it's very important for there to be alternative schools to the schools that are out there now. By the time my sons have their kids, I want schools like the one that Matt and his team have to be the norm and not a novelty, not an oddity in the in in the world of education for young people.
00:17:30
Speaker
so And I think that adults are being indoctrinated as much, if not more so than the kids, and they're less aware of it than the kids are. And so it's important to talk about what the school system is all about, it that it is a behavior management system, and what education is all about, and how you can take control of your own education.
00:17:57
Speaker
um I decided to sign up for Jordan Peterson's new Peterson Academy. It's competition to the university system. I graduated university. I got a master's degree. Why am I doing this? I want to keep learning. And I want to learn from non-woke teachers. It's the bottom line.
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah, right, right. You know, I have a question for you, Matt, but I want to share two things because, Matt, I know lifelong learning is really important in your system of thought. Nikki, you just acknowledged like you're a lifelong learner. But I, you know, two things, it's like we have the lifelong learners that you guys are promoting is like the time is free, sovereign individual learning.
00:18:36
Speaker
versus like, even if you finish school, go to college, graduate school, even when you're in life, you're still being programmed by CNN, Fox, MSNBC, you know, the government and their propaganda, Hollywood and their propaganda. There's all this programming going on, even when you're outside of the conventional schooling system. So, two questions for both of you guys. Okay, cool. we We want to reform the education system in and of itself, the primary, secondary, and college education system.
00:19:05
Speaker
Do you imagine that if someone goes through like a map, your type of program, that they will be so how many use word ah what awake to program programming and propaganda that they'll be less likely to be influenced by that because there already are sovereign and free and thoughtful human beings? Because it's a lifelong thing that we have to be concerned about. It's my first question for you, Matt. Yeah. And I love that question because here's part of the problem. What what would argue back to what even what Nicky just said, which I would understand is like, oh, okay, cool. Well, you don't you know believe in the quote unquote woke ideologies, but are you the name or label, right? Are you now, are you the right wing ultra mug? Like people will automatically throw those things out there too, right? And the whole point is anytime we as a collective species come to a point where we go, all right, we've got all the answers in this particular arena, whatever that arena is, learning stops.
00:20:03
Speaker
Learning stops because you're inherently shutting off the curiosity, right? So I am a big believer in, so to answer, you know, directly your question, Michael, the the the concept of earning a right to have an opinion or a thought in anything. And the way you earn a right to have an opinion or a thought is to be able to argue against that thought better than anybody else, right? That to me is the most important mark of an educated mind. It's somebody that's gonna lean far more into questions than answers.
00:20:33
Speaker
I want to have the wherewithal and let's not i'm not go to you know there's by no means am I pretending like I'm perfect and this is what I do all the time because I'll get caught in the human emotion of like, no man, this is how it is. right We all get there, but I need to make sure I'm the first one to go, hold on. This is how I believe it is. and I believe it is this way because I've actually tried to argue against myself.
00:20:56
Speaker
in this, and I can't find better evidence than the evidence that I'm holding onto right here. I'm open to hearing different evidence, but I can't find any better evidence right now. And I and i question you know i try to question that to the best of my ability, that's what I got. that's where That's where an educated mind, that's somebody who's got curiosity, stays open. right Because the truth ultimately doesn't have to defend itself, so seek it by asking questions.
00:21:21
Speaker
I love that, and I have a question for you as a follow-up, but let me just, if you don't mind, make it stable. So, Michael, I'm am interested because you're a polymath. You have expertise in multiple disciplines, probably more than anybody I know, you have expertise at a very high level in multiple disciplines. What do you believe will allow young boys to learn how to think for themselves, to be sovereign. And what do you believe will help men that are currently maybe not thinking for themselves learn how to think for themselves? Okay, that's a great question. I'm going to answer your question sideways and then sneak back into the child and adult thing. Because I do want to speak to something Matt said, which starts to answer your question. In my transparency work back in the day, 20 years, I'm on a Capitol Hill working with the White House and stuff like that.
00:22:13
Speaker
My, in trans parts of me, the trans movement is is through and beyond the party. I try to understand how conservatives things, liberals things, progressives things, how libertarians think, how groups think.
00:22:26
Speaker
And so I try to understand multiple different worldviews and it speaks to what you said Matt, because what I would do, like I'm pretty libertarian conservative in my orientation. So Macy's and Hayek and Rothbard, you know, all all the usual guys are supposed to read if you're a libertarian type. And then some of the more conservative writers as well. But I would read like Z magazine.
00:22:47
Speaker
I would read Chomsky, you know, I would want to understand other perspectives because although I might not agree with their prescriptions, their analysis is pretty really interesting and I can expand my map of how to understand and analyze various situations. So in the policy world like, you know, libertarian is the individual versus the state.
00:23:05
Speaker
OK, cool. But there's other perspectives on power. I'm like, oh, that's really interesting. I don't want to just say everything's the individual in the state. Other people have different perspectives on the power dynamics. I'm like, I want to understand them. The mistake I think most people make is saying this is the one way. It's the patriarchy. It's man versus woman or straight versus gay or black versus white. All those dynamics are literally at play. You can see them in the culture. You need to take them seriously. But you can't say that is the only, I don't think so. That's the only lens you should keep these things true.
00:23:34
Speaker
You need a bigger model in that. So I really appreciate what your approach that you shared in that. It's like, study and read all the different perspectives. you Be grounded in your own. But try to understand where other people are coming from. Integrate your limited and impartial truths. And look for some, you know is there analysis? Maybe there's some analysis points in there that you don't use. That's really that's really powerful. It doesn't mean you have to give up your position. But you need to have a position and then be open-minded to other ways of looking at the world.
00:24:02
Speaker
ah So that's just response to that. But to you, Nicky, in terms of children's, I want to share ah my little story, which I think would help articulate the answer to your question.
00:24:17
Speaker
um Third grade, Matt, I heard you say third grade, right? So and I think it's third or fourth grade. For me, I was learned disabled, finally diagnosed, put ah in a program. And I spent almost every day in the principal's office. Why? Because I was in this program and I refused to do the work. And I and i wasn't a bad, like I wasn't screaming, yelling and arguing. I was just like, I'm not going to do the work. And they sent me to the principal's office because you're supposed to do the work. And I tell the principal, I'm not doing the work because they're having me do the same thing everyone else is doing.
00:24:46
Speaker
If my learning disability is unique to me and my own, why am I doing everything else? You're just putting me like in the zoo to keep me occupied for an hour. And that's wasting my time. Now, fortunately, and this goes to your question, maybe, my father and mother like were really supportive of me academically and individually. My dad came in there and gave the principal hell.
00:25:07
Speaker
you know, for like getting me in trouble for extending it for myself because I actually wanted to get a real education. So like my point in telling you part of that story is two things. One, parents need to stand up for their kids. You need to, and you don't have to be an ass about it, but you need to go, if your kid is literally in a club of school or even in a private school like you share with your own story, Nicky, and things are being talked about that you question,
00:25:31
Speaker
Don't just, oh, it's okay, it's gonna be okay. No, your your your kids are actually being indoctrinated in a particular worldview, whether it's woke or far right or whatever it is. like you know we We want our children to be, learn to be critical thinkers, not to be indoctrinated to any particular ideology or particular philosophy. You'd want them to actually understand all the different ideologies and philosophies so they can make better decisions. So go in and fight for your kid. But while you're going in and fighting for your kid, use that as an opportunity for some self-reflection.
00:26:00
Speaker
Where am I like the institution which I'm arguing against? Like, am I critically thinking on that particular subject or do I have my own ideology? Hey, you can freely choose to have your own ideology and put it to your kid. That's fine with your choice as a parent. But you can also say like, wow, where am I not being critically thoughtful? And if I'm not being critically thoughtful, then I'm teaching my kid not to be critically thoughtful too.
00:26:24
Speaker
I would say that's a first start from the parenting down to the kids. But Matt, this is like your life. What you just said is so true, man. so there we well I will hear this and I have the honor of hearing this from parents all over the world, all the time, seven days a week. and i As much as I can, I try to help them unpack and ask questions to get them to to really define what it is they're talking about. Sometimes they're talking about, school isn't working for my child.
00:26:52
Speaker
okay What does that mean? I want to stand up for my kids at school because, cool, sounds good. What does that mean? um Because there are instances where, guess what? Your kid's an asshole.
00:27:07
Speaker
Oh, if that's the case, that's the case. And guess why? It's probably because you are. Like that's a real thing too, right? It's not working. It's not working or you're a jerk and you're teaching your kid to be a jerk. And so there's no chance for even good humans who want to do right by them. And maybe a good system that is designed where really, I know that system well enough where there's no such thing as perfect. There's no panacea, but they're in a great, you know, Montessori or they're great in a great,
00:27:37
Speaker
you know, Waldorf, they're in a great apogee, they're in a great whatever it is. And it's not working because they're just going in there like a jerk because again, their factory settings are off because you're letting them stay up till three o'clock in the morning playing video games and then you're, you know, sending them out the door with Skittles and Lunchables and then you're... go So yeah, they're struggling. It's a normal response to what you're allowing to take place in their life and then dad's yelling at them and beating mom and like there's any number of scenarios, right? so let's make sure we get the factory settings good again, ah yeah so that we can really, then we can really say, okay, cool, now I'm gonna stand up for what's right, because I've at least exhibited what I believe to be right, and I've examined my own behaviors on that. And then taking it from a different perspective too, the standing up for your kids, I'm 100%, I agree with you, absolutely. I always ask parents to define what that means too. I have a lot of parents that I've talked to
00:28:34
Speaker
and have for years who, well, I'm going every, so I can't believe this was in the, I can't believe they brought in this, and I can't believe the ah curriculum has this, and look, this is pornography, and they brought in, you know, this human sexual, you know, talking about homosexuality but to my five-year-olds, and now they're coming home and asking, like, any number of scenarios. So I'm going to the school board. Okay, cool, well, that's not gonna change it.
00:29:00
Speaker
That's not going to change it. so It's like going to the Vatican and saying, change your theology like outside with a picket sign. right like That's not going to happen. There's too much money power politics to change. so What does fight for them actually look like? Because it may not be pretend fighting and then send them back out. I can't stand what the public schools do. All right, you got your lunch, got your backpack, and off you go. Are you really fighting for them or are you pretending to make yourself feel good? Fighting for them may just be pulling them out and figuring something else out right and and doing that too. so Yeah, definition of terms, man. It always, every situation begs a question. Your job is to figure out what the right question is. I love your factor setting. I'm i still on that front end. There's your other question, Nikki. I see two important, at least on many things that we need to consider for children, and Matt, you're the expert on this. so One is, what are their natural curiosities and interests, and like what values drive them to want to be curious about certain, the world that we live in?
00:29:58
Speaker
I believe best organize that because then there's a natural energy towards exploring it and moving forward in that spirit of life. Cool. And I think it needs to be balanced out with accountability and discipline. Because if you just follow your bliss, which is a great thing, and you run into the real world where you're not always going to be able to follow your bliss, you actually have to make commitments and to be disciplined and follow through on things you might not like, you're not going to be skilled at doing so.
00:30:28
Speaker
So I think you need, I think children need both of those kinds of energies inside of them all the time. Matt, but what's kind of your feeling?
00:30:43
Speaker
Matt, so how do we as a society get rid of this participation trophy mentality?
00:30:55
Speaker
that's been creeping into our society and is being taught to kids. Because to me, that's very important. um Yeah, I agree. the I do not believe it is a... in info I did earlier.
00:31:14
Speaker
I don't currently believe it's an infiltration of said systems where we you know take back power. We being this collective idea you know or this ideology that we are going to take this example of of imparting responsibility back and getting you know eradicating these eighth grade troy eight eighth place trophies. and um you know We're not going to do that in a system that's defined by that. We're not going to do that by changing the school system. We're not going to do it by changing the medical system, or changing the culture, or changing the media. We have to create something on the side that's so much more powerful. and here's and It obviously starts in the home. That's said over and over, and it's almost cliche, but that's the reality. It doesn't matter what the world is. I can tell you right now, the world's going bat shit crazy. You know who's not impacted by it?
00:32:05
Speaker
my 13-year-old, my 11-year-old, and my 8-year-old in the least. My 13-year-old works 40 hours a week. you know She's she got multiple jobs. She's written two books that are each like 300, 400 pages long. um you know she She and her sister bought their first horses when they were nine and seven from running multiple businesses. right my my daughters the My middle daughter is the captain of her gymnastics, you know competitive gymnastics team. She's not the best gymnast on the team. She's the best human on the team. That's why. She's the most responsible and she's the and the most kind.
00:32:37
Speaker
Um, you know, again, my, so and my son, you know, same, same thing and in kickboxing and wrestling and ninja. And he's just, but we balance those amazing things they get to do with the responsibility on the other side. They don't have the freedoms to do any of these things unless they take care of their responsibilities. And I think that is where we start, right? Is that a massive dose of responsibility earlier on?
00:33:01
Speaker
you know some of the things we're talking about as far as these factory settings. Yes, we want them to play and figure out who they are. But yes, we want them to be exposed to a number of things to to try to see what they like, to see what they don't like. But all of it needs to be done with boundaries. All of it needs to be done with ah um you know values that are imparted. um this is look I'm going to give you decisions to make so that you can learn how to make decisions. But I'm only going to give you choices A, B, C, and D because those are all really good decisions. Pick any of them, man. That's great. You're not going to get choices E, F, G, H, and I because those are all bad decisions. right so My kids have a very, ah you know they have a schedule every day, but that schedule includes a ton of responsibility front loaded because they crave that and they know their freedoms come from the other side of that.
00:33:52
Speaker
and They can't get to the freedoms until responsibilities are met. And then they have choices throughout the day, but the choices are never. When you're bored, their choices are not, we don't have video games, their and choices aren't video games. We don't, we're not, and I'm not saying am I anti-video games, I'm just saying that's not a choice. Their choices aren't, I'm gonna go jump on YouTube and go down rabbit hole for two, it that's not a choice. You know what your choices are and none of them are that. um So us providing those boundaries so that you have responsible human beings That's the start of taking culture back. It's families taking that back first. Then you start to create these alternative systems with like-minded families. Everything we're doing on the apogee side is literally an invitation. Hey man, we don't have to agree. We're not going to, we'll be able to find something we disagree on, but do we agree on the values of what humans, you know do we agree on that Bushido code of honor and integrity and loyalty? and
00:34:47
Speaker
You know, like and honesty and politeness and and bravery. Do we agree on that? Because if we do, everything else is going to be a piece of cake. And then we build those systems that end up becoming so undeniable. I use CrossFit as the example all the time. Love them, hate them. It doesn't matter. You know who they are. And they shifted fitness. Everybody knows who they are. Because they created something and a tribe around it. That's what we do. Yeah. I love you brought up the machine. I literally have one printed up in my bathroom. every morning Nice. Yeah, it's cool. That's awesome. I love this phrase you used, Matt, called a massive dose of responsibility early on. I think that'd make a good title for this episode. Massive dose of responsibility. Man, they want it. They crave it. But what happens? We shut it down as parents, right? it because Because what happens is they show you that first inkling at 3 o'clock. Can I help you make dinner?
00:35:45
Speaker
And in your head, you're like, oh my God, you know how long it's going to take? And to get you to, I just need to get this done because I need to, because, because, no, your answer is absolutely, you can help me. You bet. Let's go, right? You set, like you're going to sacrifice a lot upfront, but you allow them to take on those responsibilities early at that foundation, man, that pays off dividends.
00:36:13
Speaker
yeah And I was trained as a family therapist, marriage-defending therapist, but now as a relationship coach. That same model, it's useful inside marriages, not just with parents, with kids. Yeah, I love that, for sure. Hey, Nick, what are you with your men's group and Matt, your kids, rites of passage for Nicky? We don't have rites of passage in our country. i mean you get either thirteen or Catholic, I guess you get a 13 year old thing, but it's not really a rite of passage is like it was intended to be to make you a man to a boy to a man or a woman, a girl to a woman. And I'm curious for you thinking with your men's group, like you could write their passages and match, what are your thoughts on writing passages for kids in our culture, which is like you get drunk, you get laid and that's rite of passage. which is
00:37:04
Speaker
In the men's group, you know when someone um does one of our ah our programs, we've got a we got a course we send men to called the Sterling Men's Weekend that's been put on by a fellow named Justin Sterling in Northern California since 1979, and he's put hundreds of thousands of people through it.
00:37:24
Speaker
And then when they come back to their to their home base, we put them through something called a point program, which is like an eight-week-like, really intense you know ah boot camp, if you will, ah where we turn these people into into men you know with solid words and everything. And part of them deciding to join the community of men is there's some rites of passage we take them through. And they're super secret, so I can't share them here with you.
00:37:50
Speaker
but oh They're fun, and they're cool, and they're manly. That's all I'm going to tell you. You you'd like you would approve. You would really approve. But ah as far as for kids, my brother's wife is Jewish, and his ah oldest son did the bar mitzvah, and his ah eldest daughter did a bat mitzvah. And those were powerful for me to witness as ah as a Gentile, because The Jewish faith does a really good job of making sure that rites of passage are observed and preserved. And I'm not happy that we Christians have not done a very good job of that myself. And it'd be cool to get Matt's thoughts on that and your thoughts on that, Michael. Yeah. um it's such in this It's such a necessity. It's interesting we brought that up too because we have
00:38:45
Speaker
um the you know We have a bunch of different verticals on our, we have our men's, women's, um young men's, young women's about to launch. We've got our campuses, we've got our home education tribes, but we've got a bunch of our men who have come through our men's programs for some of them up to almost two years now. and And we've got, we just started kicking off our live events at the tail end of this last year. And this actually last weekend I was in the Catfield Mountains when we had a live event specifically for men that were that are going into coaching internally and everything that we have going on.
00:39:16
Speaker
And um it was so cool because there was one man in particular, shout out to Mr. Smith. And shout out to Agent Smith. Sounds like I'm talking about The Matrix. these are i was just going too He's an FBI agent and his last name is Smith. So Agent Smith, um shout out to Agent Smith, man. He is starting.
00:39:39
Speaker
a rites of passage ah series for men to lead their young men through. And he's doing it based on brain brain development jumps too. So like we talk about the fact that you know the brain is fully developed you know around, quote unquote, around 25-ish. Cool. We don't talk about the fact that there's these huge brain jumps around 12, around 16.
00:40:00
Speaker
right There's all these different things. So he's creating this whole series, which I think is brilliant. And we're gonna figure out how, you know I want him to set the roadmap and then we'll come in and help where we can. But it was funny because he came to this event and at the beginning he was interviewed and he's like, actually, but so I'm not really even sure why I'm here. And by the end of the event, he went,
00:40:23
Speaker
I can't believe I didn't realize what was happening because this was a rite of passage that I always needed as a man. I'm a grown man. I'm an FBI agent. I'm ah like i'm a stud of you. This was a rite of passage I needed as a husband and as a father.
00:40:37
Speaker
that I never got. I'm going home a different husband and a different father. I never got that rite of passage, and I got that this weekend. I can't believe I'm going to build this out for other people, realizing I'd never gone through anything like that myself, and now I have, right? And so what we're talking about here, there are so many ways. I think the the things that we can't miss, the young men to men, I love that, the bar mitzvah, the bar mitzvah, but I think everybody can develop. What does that look like?
00:41:04
Speaker
you know, Ben Greenfield is a friend of mine. And I know, you know, Taron Rivers, boys, in the young men's program on the Apogee side for coming up on a couple years. And they had this whole rite of passage out in the wilderness. And and there was this entire, you know,
00:41:19
Speaker
I mean, it's almost like a vision quest kind of thing. And I'm not saying they went in there and, you know, dove into Hiawasca or anything, but they weren't in there like this whole vision quest deal, which I love. I literally named my son after the main character of the movie, Vision Quest, right? So my son's name is Loudon. Yeah, man. I love that movie, man. That's an awesome movie.
00:41:37
Speaker
brother I had to do that since I was young, right? So my boy's name is loud and we brought him home playing lunatic binge the entire way like that. Dude, he knows that very well. Actually, we had Frank Jasper who played shoot came on as a mentor for our young man. And ah we had him in here and I brought my boy in and I'm like, put him up to the screen. I'm like, tell him your name. And he's like, I'm loud. and and And Frank jumped right into like, shoot, he's like, what? He's like, are you going to make weight? You know, I was like, yes. It's cool, man. But like, I think there is that young men to, you know, men, I think there's a young woman.
00:42:12
Speaker
to women, and then I think every family should develop those rites of passage like a legacy that they pass down to. you know and And maybe that's something that is a specific tradition just to your family where you honor various things. um But I think there should be something that families create that honors when the man becomes a father for the first time, what is that rite of passage? like Because that inherently is one. What does that look like? When you get married, what is that rite of passage? I think family should be responsible for that 100%.
00:42:41
Speaker
Michael, what are your thoughts around that? Yeah, I think they're, they're so, so important. and I think you can look get more and Matt, you're going to kind of share this like multiple different milestones. It doesn't have to be. Boy to man, girl to woman. Tons of milestones that you can celebrate throughout. I give you one in my own family but and considering this was like in the 80s, it kind of blows my mind. When my sister had her period for the first time, my dad got her flowers, which is, you know, like that was kind of an unknown thing, but he was recognizing that she was transitioning to become a woman and he wanted to acknowledge it.
00:43:14
Speaker
Like that end of itself if you could imagine that become a ritual inside of family where it's not like there's your tampons and your pads and look i i like like you actually celebrate the fact that now this person is fertile and continue on the family lineage. That could be an example of one type of rite of passage.
00:43:31
Speaker
But it's speaking like for our boys to men, I think the rites of passage also have to be physically challenging, not just mentally, not just emotionally. But I think it'd be beneficial for this physical challenge so they can see who they are at such levels, like the cockerel spirit and the domino spirit we tell it. So we talk about a seal fit. That needs to be explored. And not just a one time thing. like you know Once you realize like, wow, I'm really capable of whatever this thing is, then I would imagine it really helpful for you to continue down that path for the rest of your life. you know It's different when you're 20 than you're 50 than when you're 70, but you always want to keep have in your back of your mind, what kind of crucibles do I need in my life to continually challenge me to both show my strengths, what I'm capable of, but also show my weaknesses, things I need to work on. I would include like all of that in there as well. Crucibles, not just to write a rite of passage from the back of your man, boy command but to girl to woman.
00:44:27
Speaker
black These family rites of passage are very powerful. It just made me think, you know, my oldest son graduated high school and and he went straight to work. And I mean, I should have gotten him something. I should have gotten him a watch or something. And i'm I'm thinking what I'm going to do now is um he's he's working full time in a fitness company. And i'm I'm going to go buy him something to to to mark that rite of passage from boyhood to manhood.
00:44:57
Speaker
And um I think that's really, really important. So thank you for that. Thank you, Michael, for bringing up the topic and thank you, Matt, for the idea. I think it's super, super important. So what do we need to do to lead by example for the young men and frankly, even the adult men that are becoming dimly aware that They weren't educated, they were indoctrinated and are trying to find out how to properly educate themselves. How do we lead by example? Michael and then Matt. Okay. So I, and I break these things up for conversation sake, but we're integrated a whole, but I will look at it physically, mentally, emotionally. You know, I think it's really important for men to be physically capable of taking care of themselves and their families.
00:45:53
Speaker
whether it's self-defense or literally being able to carry their child out of their home if there's a fire. like You need to be physically capable. You don't have to be an elite athlete, you don't have to be a crossfit athlete, but you have to be physically capable of both doing those kind of things and also if there's, God forbid, an attack on the family in the home or as best as you can defend your family. So physical is one thing. Mentally, you know your your education is not to stop at college or high school. of you as matt said this even so this thing life long you always want to be learning You always want to be learning and always challenging yourself. i mean That should be like one of the major pillars of your life. I want to continue to learn new things all the time and challenge the old things.
00:46:33
Speaker
you know because like What I believe today, I'm hoping five, 10 years from now, I have it maybe, i mean depending on what it is, I have a different perspective because I have more knowledge and wisdom. you know I don't just hold on to the same opinion for the whole of my life. like I need to be intellectually stimulated and intellectually learning and growing. Emotionally, our men need to learn to do two things.
00:46:55
Speaker
One is to feel their feelings. Don't repress them. That's really important because if you don't, they come out sideways, they come out at health conditions. You're screwed if you if you just repress your feelings. But you also need to learn to manage your feelings, or you know like how you express them. like You don't need to be road raging and screaming all over the place. like Learn to fucking control yourself. Get some self mastery of yourself. Mastery is not repression. You feel them, but you don't have to like throw your feelings all over the people.
00:47:22
Speaker
That is so important because I call it kind of the Oprah Winfrey effect. I remember watching a few years Oprah Winfrey, her show, it's all about feelings, all about feelings, all about feelings, all about feelings. I'm like, hey, feelings are great, but if you're if that's what drives our culture, then we're, and we feel the effect of that, we're screwed. You want to also learn to manage your feelings too. And then I'll say spiritually, if you are a person of faith, awesome, deepen your faith, you know trust in your God,
00:47:49
Speaker
and whatever the religious systems that happens to be i'm monotheistic or whatever your system is, dive in, use that as a foundation of your ethics, how you show up in the world, how you treat other human beings. And if you happen not to not have a particular religious path, what's your moral code? Like Matt, you brought up a machine of code. like We're all men and human beings. All need a code of ethics. How we treat ourselves, how we treat other human beings, how we treat the world around us, the guy complex adaptive system,
00:48:19
Speaker
yeah All of that is really important. So I would say all those four pillars are important for us to embody, to live out, and be examples for other people. That was excellent. I took good notes on that. Thank you. That was brilliant, man. Beautifully said. um you know what because What we're talking about is education in general and again.
00:48:40
Speaker
Where I come back to definition of terms, it was Seth Godin, is is who I credit, was asking me this for the first time. Nobody had ever asked me this. I've been in education forever. And he says, what should education even be for?
00:48:52
Speaker
Jeez, man. Nobody's asked me that. But the best I can ascertain is it should be for sovereignty, right? And that's, I love the name of this show, man. It's the sovereign man. So cool. What does that mean? It means I can build the life I want to build, do it with who I want to do it with, create the things I want to create, not be behooving to anybody. I don't want to be, you know,
00:49:12
Speaker
I don't want to answer to somebody and I don't have to answer to somebody and and do all these things while treating other people, while serving other people, building other people up. So we take a look at, you know as far as being that example, um Michael did a great job of illustrating a really a lot of the way we focus on our men's side. you know we We start out on the men's side when we start working with men, um the majority of our husbands and fathers.
00:49:36
Speaker
because they are leading by example, we start out with um really the the human psychology of it all. We start out with Plato had this concept of what he called the forms and it's really visualizing the ideal version of yourself and and all the different versions of yourself. So Matt that is friends with Michael and Nikki is very much, this is me, this is a hundred percent me, this is very much authentically me, all the buzzwords, whatever, like, but this is me.
00:50:02
Speaker
And then I'm gonna go upstairs a little later and I'm gonna go see Heather. And that's my wife. She's gonna absolutely get 100% of me, the authentic me. But let's not pretend it's the same version.
00:50:13
Speaker
All right, though the husband version of me is not the same as the friend version of me here, which is also different than when I've got to go into a business meeting. It's all still me, but there's these different versions. So we start out with our men going, all right, man, who are all the guys, all the ways you need to show up in the world as husband is the father, whatever. What does that ideal guy look like? According to you and according to the people you're serving, right? But like, what does it, what does he look like?
00:50:40
Speaker
Who can help you um to kind of remind you, who who does that remind you of? And so you can kind of keep them in mind as like your board of directors to go, okay, because we want them to dive into who they need to be because that'll dictate what they need to do, right? If they wake up every morning and go, ah, what do I have to do today? That's a weaker frame than if I wake up and go, who am I? If I really lean into who I am, I'll just do the things that I'm supposed to do.
00:51:05
Speaker
right So it's that. Who am I? Who's the ideal version of it? We start there. And then we take that. you know What does that guy do? And we break it down into schedules and and building these habits and having a chief definite aim to focus on. Because we're really talking about eradicating bad habits and including the ones that we want to get where we want to go. um We dive in after that to the physical side.
00:51:26
Speaker
um Again, Michael laid it out beautifully, but that is a very important part of leading by example as a man and it's not just get Jack get shredded cold plunge and tell everybody about it and you you know eat your steak off a cutting board and post it on Instagram like That's all good. That's fun to watch though. You gotta admit. It's fun to watch that yeah I'm down dude. I I can I can salivate over some meat on a cutting board like nobody's business man. I'm gay but um Also, I like the fact that, sure, dude, that's great. i'm How old are my 44? I'm 44 and I still got a six pack and I can still i was sparring last night and with his young buck. He's in his early 20s and he's like, man, I've never seen you before. i thought you were I thought you were old. I said, I am old. He goes, you don't fight old. I'm like, cool, man. That's awesome. I like that. Good. But I i like it better that I haven't gotten sick in 10 years.
00:52:20
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like that, I can show up, I can work seven days a week if I want to, and I'm okay, and I can still bring some good and energy to my family, and I can still, like, so health, defining what that means. um The spiritual side, we dive into like what Michael said, and and we really take the leadership on our side, on the spiritual side of steel manning your beliefs, like what we were talking about earlier, go, man, I want you to have your faith, your beliefs, what are those? And have you question them?
00:52:46
Speaker
Have you wrestled with them? I'd rather have you wrestle with your own beliefs versus wrestle with a guy who's theoretically got different beliefs than you. right The whole Christians versus Jews, the Jews versus the Muslims, the Muslims versus... Cool, that's that's cute. Bloods versus crypts is cute too, but like let's go me versus me, and what do I actually believe in? What do I believe in? um and Then we go in further. We take, the again, those pillars, right marriage, kids, even the legacy, the self-reliance. All right, Costco shuts down again because the world goes crazy, and toilet paper's not there, and food's not there. What are you going to do? Are you good?
00:53:19
Speaker
are you Are you golden? Because if you're not, there's a self-reliance piece, right? um The financial side, like we take it pillar by pillar by pillar, just like Michael said, and it's a self-examination, man. Where do I need to get better now? Because I need to get better in all of them. But like where do I need to get better now? And just keep the train rolling. I know that was long-winded, but that's it. No, that's awesome. And I'm curious on the financial piece, too.
00:53:43
Speaker
help them learn about fiat currency and federal reserve printing presses and all that kind of good stuff. 100% and the two the fact that there's two tax systems in our country, right? There's not just the 1040 system, there's the 1041 system and that changes taxation altogether and the fact that if you don't necessarily own anything but you have various forms of trusts and by the way, there's 86 kinds of trusts.
00:54:05
Speaker
So if you take care of, put things in a trust structure that is um at a federal level versus a state level, that changes what you can do and and what you can do with pre-tax dollars versus your post-tax dollars. And yeah, understanding all those things, it doesn't mean you got to do it the way I do it, but at least you know it's an option. Then you choose, man, that's it. I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just showing you as many options as I know on how to do it. And then you figure out what you think makes sense.
00:54:34
Speaker
I want to say something. Both of you you men have shared some ah really powerful thoughts on how to go about oh living your life as a sovereign man. And i I really appreciate, I took good notes on what both of you said. Michael, yours was extremely succinct and on point Matt, yours was very far-reaching and all-encompassing, so they they were good in their own different and powerful ways. But I want to say this to you. It's okay to say I was mouthy. It's okay. No, no i don't i got no problem saying I got no problem saying things straight. I got something from the way each of you described what you did.
00:55:18
Speaker
You know, that's why I said it. His was really on point, and yours really went broad. It made me think, oh, tax systems, this, that, I never thought of those things. You you know what I mean? And and it it was really cool. So there's something you said, Matt, around the versions of me. Now, i I've done a lot of work inside Justin Sterling's teachings, and he's the fellow who created the Sterling Institute of Relationship, the Men's Weekend, the Women's Weekend.
00:55:44
Speaker
and You talked about the versions of me, and inside the Sterling world, he talks about the various masks that a man wears. ah And and he he likens it to ah warriors of old. When warriors would go into battle, they would wear a mask to protect themselves.
00:56:03
Speaker
and He says that inside the world you're metaphorically speaking in a battle So if you're if you're going out into into the world of work, you're you're putting on your businessman mask you're going in there and you're doing battle in there if you're going in into the world of uh, a family He says that hey that it can be its own metaphorical battle space as well for you in certain specs so you put on your husband mask you put on your your father mask you put on your your friend mask, you put on your your ah educator mask and and ah those to me were similar yet different from what you talked about in terms of the versions of me and I really like synthesizing the strengths of what you shared as well as what Justin has shared and I want to say this if you men have never had a chance to do Justin's work
00:56:58
Speaker
he's He's worth doing. His courses are taught in Oakland. He's doing one in in November. He's really sick. I don't think he's going to be around much longer. His kidneys are failing. I think he had ah someone donate a kidney to him, but I think even that's starting to fail. And it's it's worth learning from this man before he passes. He's one of the great wise elders of our time. um And he was ah he was mentored by Werner Erhart, who created EST, Erhart Seminars Training.
00:57:27
Speaker
And the the the the Sterling work is originally Werner's work on men's sex and power and women's sex and power from back in the 70s. He took that, he licensed it from Werner and put his own spin on it and and then created these programs. So um I think it's important, Matt, that you are doing what you do and you're putting yourself and your company out there to help men, to help families, to help young boys. And Michael, I said this to you from the time we met, man, you are like a polymath, a renaissance man, and the world needs to know more of you because you know so much about so many things and and at such a high level. yeah Most people are you know a mile wide and an inch deep. You're like a mile wide and 10 miles deep. It's crazy. you know
00:58:14
Speaker
ah And it's ah it's a beautiful thing to get a chance to speak to both of you. um you know In the interest of ah staying on point with our time, I'd love for each of you to give your your closing thoughts on this topic of helping to educate not just young people, but even adults who have been misled so badly.
00:58:45
Speaker
Michael, why don't you start off and then you, Matt, and then we'll wrap up. Yeah, so I'm actually going to plug Matt. I i want to give more of my time to Matt because I want you to talk about your men's program, your women's program.
00:58:55
Speaker
for families and for the kids program I think models like that, like what you're doing, Matt, are so, so important. And, you know, I love Matt, so you do Matt's program, but there are other people on the cutting edge of the culture who are creating other opportunities for families, for kids, for fathers and the mothers and mothers and fathers together, all that stuff. So like, hey, if Matt's program is not a fit for you, find other programs like that.
00:59:20
Speaker
as much as you can stay away from the conventional programs, which are going to lock in the culture as this man made a perfect point. Like, yeah, some people need to play the role of fighting the president models, president monsters. Cool. That's a role for some people to play. I think it's much more important for a majority of people to not necessarily do that.
00:59:40
Speaker
the new So we find people who are doing these amazing things outside of the conventional culture and go play with them, try things out. And Matt is one fantastic example of someone who's creating the new. Thank you, brother. I appreciate that very much. I could not agree more on, look, there's a there's a lot of, we're not the only game in town, man.
01:00:01
Speaker
So find the game that works for you, right? And that's the convention when conventional wisdom says, you know, I try to get people to use metaphors as much as possible or give themselves analogies or, you know, when conventional wisdom says everybody needs to do the same thing at the same time. Well, what if that was medication, right? Do every kid gets the same medication at the same time? Like,
01:00:21
Speaker
He started thinking, ah, you'd go, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. Why does my kid need that medication? Why does he need it? Like what? You'd start to question maybe a little more, maybe. I don't know. I just, anything that you can reframe to get you to ask questions. And I think that to me is the genesis of all of this is are you willing to ask a question and are you brave enough to keep pulling at that string until you see where it goes?
01:00:44
Speaker
If you're willing to do that, if you eradicate the fears that come up with that, my wife's going to be mad. My parents will be mad. Society doesn't accept that question. That's if you can get past that man and pull at that string and and let your curiosity lead you somewhere.
01:00:59
Speaker
Um, you know, I think ultimately you're going to be in a, in a better place. Right. And so I'll just leave you with this, you know, we're talking about those ideals too. And that's ultimately education should be for that sovereign version of you. And you get to define what that means. We talked about the masks. I love that what you're talking about with Mr. Sterling. And it sounds like he's a great, he's a great guy. Um, talking about those masks, you know, I'm, I'm taken back to, you know, my son's eight now, but I remember.
01:01:28
Speaker
He's like three. and And many of you will have similar stories to this. He comes in to the living room and he's got you know a Batman mask and he's got a Batman that somebody sent him, right? And he walks into the room.
01:01:42
Speaker
He's not like, what's up, dad? Look, i'm wearing you know I'm wearing this. He walks into the room and he's just dead freaking serious. right and He's just walking in like he's the baddest MF on the block. you know and He's just like, hey, dad, you know the best that he can. you know just like Because in his mind, he's like, all right, man, I put the mask on. I put the cape on. I'm freaking Batman now. I've got some freaking powers. right like I'm ready to rock and roll.
01:02:06
Speaker
If every man, woman and child would take ownership and sovereignty to that level where you go, okay, look man, I'm stepping into this role right now and I can be the best version of that. I can be this ideal.
01:02:18
Speaker
and then you can learn to switch it just slightly to be, it's still you, it's still authentically you, but you just learn, okay, this is the ideal and I'm gonna be brave enough to step into that ideal, guys. that's not It's only sociopathy if you're trying to use that to manipulate and get something out of somebody else. If you're there to be that best version of you so that you can go serve and lead others, that's your highest purpose. like That's our highest self. That's the most educated version of you, right there.
01:02:48
Speaker
Amen. Amen.
01:02:53
Speaker
We're going to make sure that we put your websites, Matt, in the show notes. Michael, same for you. All three of us in our own ways are involved in the work of men and we care very deeply about what happens to our society and we care very deeply about men, manhood and masculinity. That's why I wanted to have this conversation today.
01:03:16
Speaker
I didn't know you two knew each other until I saw you ah comment on each other stuff on Facebook. I said, shit, these dudes know each other. And I thought to myself, man, it'd be really cool that I have a talk with both of them at the same time. I bet you I'd learned a ton. And I did. And i I'm very grateful that you agreed to come and do this. I think this is a very valuable episode. And honestly, this is this could be part of a um a Peterson Academy, a study in masculinity, kind of eight module course that Jordan Peterson would put on. And he'd say, the teachers are Matt Pujo, Nikki Ballou, and Michael Osterling. And this one was on what does it take to raise sovereign children? This would be like lesson four out of eight that we'd put out there. And
01:04:07
Speaker
I think that's not a bad idea. Maybe the three of us want to think about putting something like this together and approaching Mr. Peterson and Peterson Academy and saying, hey, would you like a course like this so and and and bring it to them? Because I think this is super valuable stuff. You take that. You both, man. You guys are doing work that matters. I appreciate you. Gitto, gitto. And that's a wrap.
01:04:32
Speaker
Thank you for listening to The Sovereign Man podcast. If you're ready to take charge of your life and become the man you've always wanted to be, we invite you to join the movement at sovereignman.ca.