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EP168 Billou & Arpa: The Stages Of A Father-Son Relationship, PBD Vs. A. Justin Sterling
77 Plays16 days ago
A son's relationship with his father takes him through phases of Idolizing (hero), competition, demonizing (fuck you dad), and ultimately, humanizing. The journey starts with a rebellious departure from the father's guidance. It evolves toward success and a deepened understanding of his father protective intentions. The whole process results in an "amend" phase, where the son reflects on his father’s influence—even if it was harsh or abusive—and recognizes the lessons embedded in those experiences. It concludes with thanking his father for his lessons.
In a messed up world like ours, the best lessons are usually learned the hard way. Even though the world seems better, danger still exists in unexpected ways. There are always wolves lurking in the bushes. So, sons can't just go out and get free candy out there. If they don’t take responsibility & pay their own bills, there will be no one to help them.
Sovereign Man welcomes all unclear men who do not know where they are. It helps them find their path and grow, as society needs strong fathers, strong sons and solid men.
You’re invited to come to a Sovereign Circle meeting to experience it for yourself. To learn more, go to https://www.sovereignman.ca/. While you’re there, check out the Battle Ready program and check out the store for Sovereign Man t-shirts, hats, and books.
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Transcript
Stages of Father-Son Relationships
00:00:00
Speaker
Idolize. Idolize your father. It's exactly how it sounds. you know The man can do no wrong. Demonize. Two independent energies now potentially outgrowing a living space. Humanize. That's the point in your life where a younger man comes to that full realization of what what the older man is trying to do and appreciates that after the fact.
00:00:27
Speaker
You're a man living in the modern world in a time when men and manhood are not what they once were. You live life on your own terms. You're self-sufficient. You think for yourself and you march to the beat of your own drum. When life knocks you down, you get back up because in your gut, you know that's what men do. You're a badass and a warrior. And on the days when you forget, we are here to remind you who you really are.
Introduction to Sovereign Man Podcast
00:00:58
Speaker
Welcome to Sovereign Man podcast, where we aim to make men masculine again. I'm your man, Nicky Baloo, and I'm here with my man, Rob Arpa. What's up, Art? Not much, brother. Same shit's going down, you know? Yeah. So we were having a chat off camera, you know, about fathers. And, you know, you were telling me about your father right now, and he's dealing with a few issues in his life. And I thought it would be apropos to get into what are some of the stages in a father-son relationship? And we have a couple of different sources of what these stages are. The first one comes from ah Patrick Bet David. ah And the stages of a father-son relationship, according to Patrick Bet David, are one, idolize, two, demonize, and three, humanize.
00:01:55
Speaker
And I wanted to start by asking you, man, like what's your take on what those three are? What do they say to you? Oh yeah. So I idolize, uh, you know, as a phase in a child's life where, you know, they idolize her father. It's exactly how it sounds. You know, the man can do no wrong. You know, he is like the hero in a, in a movie, know you know what I'm saying? Like the savior, you know, that's exactly, you know, that's exactly how it sounds. And it's true. Like you can see it in all kids, you know, up until maybe the age of what?
00:02:26
Speaker
eight ah you You know where they kind of there's that idealistic thing You know, no matter what hope but no matter what happens, you know, they're your kids gonna love an Adoria almost like a dog, you know like a tele you know That unlimited love love and wanting to be around and all that stuff yeah yeah that That's what the idolized face sounds exactly like. That makes that makes good sense, right? like yeah i I remember it well with my son, right? No matter what happened, my my son ah loved and adored me.
00:03:04
Speaker
yeah yeah And I could do absolutely no wrong. And as a father, it was a wonderful phase because that full on love that your son's giving you, you're giving him back and it just gladdens your heart. Right. And, you know, and, and the child always wants to spend time with you, right? Like it's, does you know, cause as, as men, like, you know, we're, our, our job is to make sure that the family is taken care of.
00:03:30
Speaker
So sometimes that and takes us away from home for extended periods of time. So you know time with our at home with kids is limited. you know and And the kids wanna soak up every minute that they can, at least while they're in that ah phase.
00:03:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. It's a magical phase in many ways. And I remember it really well and
Understanding the Demonize Phase
00:03:53
Speaker
I loved it. um you know Then there's the other phase, ah according to Patrick Bette David, demonize. So you tell me your tell me your take on that.
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah. So from, from what it sounds like is, is there's a, there's a lot of clashing, you know, and this is when they start to carve out their own identity. I would say like teenage years, maybe even the young adolescent years, uh, um, you know, the, the image that comes to my mind is when the young buck grows its, you know, it's its own set of antlers. And then they start going with the old buck, you know,
00:04:31
Speaker
It's two independent energies now, potentially outgrowing a living space. you know So where our parent is still trying you know to protect their kid by you know how their kid would perceive as controlling them.
00:04:50
Speaker
rather than you know giving them their own liberties to go out and do whatever the hell they want, which may not always be right the right decisions, right? So yeah, so there's that there's that quarrel between the young young and the old bull. Yeah.
00:05:07
Speaker
Yeah, this totally leads to to um a lot of quarreling. I mean, God knows I've been experiencing this with my ah teenage sons right now. My my my older son, ah there's a bit of friction there still. ah Not as much like he's gone through a lot of it, not completely. But my younger son, absolutely fucking lu big time, right? And this leads to friction. and um You know, for me, it's like, doesn't he fucking see, I just love him and want to protect him. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So that, yeah, that's, that's, you know, that's the kind of spot that you're in right now. Yeah. Which is difficult for both parties, right? Yeah. Your sons are, you know, they're they're trying to determine who they are and set their own, you know, their own identities out in the world and all that. And you're still trying to protect them. Even though to them, it probably seems like you're just trying to control them.
00:06:04
Speaker
really, you you know, you just don't want them to be harmed or or get themselves in any serious trouble, shit that could, you know, ruin their lives. Yeah, yeah, it's, ah it's, it's really marked by frustration on both parties. Yeah, yeah, it's very frustrating, right? Because, you know, when you when you look when you look at it, you know, you've You've already walked the path that they're walking. So you know, you know, some of the dangers and shit that's going to lead up. So obviously, you know, you're going to try and steer them as best you can, you know, and and then they're going to try and assert their independence by trying to make their own mistakes and learning from it the hard way, you know, the pain and suffering you're you're trying to save them from. But, you know, ultimately you can't do that because the world's a
00:06:55
Speaker
best that place And sometimes, you know, the best lessons are learned the hard way. Yeah. Yeah. um The world is a messed up place. Yeah. And yeah I don't buy into any, anyone ever says like, yeah, you know, this is the best time to live in all of humanity. Yes.
00:07:16
Speaker
Truth, it is the best time to be alive on this planet. However, you know, when you get out there in the world, like it's still, it's still not, you know, it's still not, uh, it's not all roses and free candy out there. Like it's hard, right? You don't pay your bills. Like no one's going to be your friend. That's for sure. No, they're not. Hand out hand up packages to everybody. And on top of that, ap ah not only that, but What people really don't understand is this talk about this is the greatest time to be alive in history. It's also the worst time to be alive in history, because any mistake you make can be magnified, for example, on the Internet, a thousandfold, where in the past you could make a mistake and you could get away with it, ah you know because not everybody would know about it. ah Additionally, and if you're living in North America,
00:08:09
Speaker
um A lot of kids you know teenage kids do stupid shit like you know drink, do drugs, and so forth. And in the past, it wasn't a big deal. Today, big thanks to Communist China and their fucking fentanyl exports to the West, a kid can take a drug and they can kill him, not even knowing that it's laced with fentanyl enough to kill him.
00:08:30
Speaker
Uh, and that's uh, that's horrible. That's not the greatest time live in history. That's how fucked up it is. So you got to understand when you think back to like, you go back a hundred years, man, like they were, they were given his light beer because the water was tainted. You know what I mean? yeah Like there's pros and cons, but the fact is like, it's true. It's like, no matter how much, how safer we make our world, it's always got that, that weird.
00:08:59
Speaker
tendency to to also turn around and kill you somehow, right? yeah Even the the doomsday clock, like that that thing was created what, like in the 60s or something like that after the the nuclear age or was it private? You know what I'm saying? And it's always been just what, like a couple minutes to midnight? yeah i guess It goes up a minute, down a minute, you know, as as the political landscape changes. But you know, that thought of, you know, we're living in this this day and age where, you know,
00:09:27
Speaker
People are are living into their 70s, 80s, 90s. And yet at any moment now, the whole world can go up in flames. It's really a strange thing. So, you know, the the take of it, like I said before, it's like, it's no matter how, how much the world is better. It's always a dangerous place. Always a dangerous place. There's always wolves lurking in the bushes. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
00:09:53
Speaker
There are always where wolves lurking in the bushes. Just this time, you know, they may not necessarily be, you know, they may not might necessarily be a four-legged dog with fur, you know, but it could be, you know, ah a man in a business suit. You know what I'm saying? Could be a dude in a trench coat, like who the hell knows?
00:10:14
Speaker
oh Or it could be Justin Trudeau fucking forcing you to get your kids to do a gender reassignment surgery. It's kind of fucked up. shit I'm saying, you know, man in a business suit, you know, just because he looks good, sounds good. Doesn't always mean he's up to good, right? No, no, which means that a father can't back away from looking after his kid. Uh, but he also has to understand that his kid has to go out there and become his own man.
00:10:39
Speaker
ah That lesson has come to me. I mean my older boy decided not to pursue a soccer ah Ambitions and decided not to go to university and take a full-time job ah The first decision I'm very dismayed about
Blue-Collar vs. White-Collar Work Debate
00:10:54
Speaker
the second decision. I actually agree with him I think he he made a good decision to not go to university fuck University these days. It's become a fucking left-wing indoctrination playground But yes, either way regardless of whether I agree or disagree the correct thing for me to do is to let this boy make his own decision because trying to force him to make a decision that he doesn't want to make is bad at a lot of levels. So yeah i think i I think he made the right the right call there. brother I think you did too. like you know when when When we were growing up, our our you know our fathers and everyone out there, they had a really called blue collared work.
00:11:36
Speaker
And there's so few people in the white collar work that they were making a lot of money. So, you know, my, my father always said, you know, go to school, be an engineer, be a doctor, be a lawyer, whatever, whatever, whatever. But now the market is so saturated with these people and nobody knows what to do with them. Right. I don't know how many how many real estate agents and mortgage brokers in the last, the last two years now are left the profession because like, there's no, there's no fucking money to be made No, it's not like it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. And it the ironically, blue collar professions right now are the professions to get into. High in demand. Yeah. So i um I'll tell you something, Arpo. One of the thoughts that I've been having lately is, okay, I've been a coach. I love my coaching. But fuck, there's a gazillion coaches out there and the demand
00:12:26
Speaker
The demand for um new coaches isn't high. The supply is very, very high. I'm good at it. I can make sales, blah, blah, blah. But it's a grind. And then I think to myself, you know if i owned ah if I owned a blue collar service company,
00:12:42
Speaker
Right? And I was the businessman, not the guy doing the work because I don't want to be the guy doing the work and that's not scalable for me. But if I created a company like that, I bet you I could get sales left, right and fucking center. You know what I mean? Yeah, well, you know, you know, there's a man that you and I both know, you know, for coffee that you have the reasons I don't want to say his name.
00:13:01
Speaker
But he written like he had a had a quote unquote construction company, but all he was was glorified salesmen. That's all he did. He subbed it out to men that knew how to do the work. But I think i think the fact of the matter is that you know even though you were a salesman, having skills you know where you can build something from raw materials. It's always a good skill to have. Super skill. But think about this, right? There are fewer and fewer people getting into blue collar, work with your hands type of of jobs. There's the demand for them is going up. The supply of people doing that kind of work is going down.
00:13:42
Speaker
So to me, this says if you're an ambitious young man, this is the field for you to go into, not law, not medicine, because those are oversaturated while these fields are under saturated. And even an older man like myself, I can say to myself, okay, look, i'm I'm going to sit down and talk to some dudes and I'm going to buy some companies and buy some employees, maybe team up with some people and let's fucking create a,
00:14:09
Speaker
hundred million dollar a year firm ah in this fashion because I think it's doable and I think you make money a company like that you can sell the fuck out of it. That's my take on it um and it's it's my belief that if there's somebody in that world who like I tell you what the mind I'm thinking out loud over here and this is how I i do my thinking but if I found a man like you and and maybe your brother and I said to you man I said look and You may know how to do this work, you know how to run crews, and your business is about a couple million a year, great, great, great. Well, how would you feel about teaming up to grow in this to $100 million dollars company and selling it in five years? And each one of us takes home 20 million bucks. And the way we would do this is we'd bring some business practices to scaling and growing. And all we would do is we'd go look at guys,
00:15:04
Speaker
We go look at guys who have companies, right, who are older, who want to sell, who want to get out. And we fucking buy the their book of business. We buy their employees and we integrate them and we make it happen. I bet you in the city of Toronto alone, we could buy 40, $50 million dollars worth of business from dudes right now ah that are going to go yeah bankrupt.
00:15:25
Speaker
ah Not bankrupt. Sorry, they they're gonna retire and you know, they want to make some money. So you find some private equity money. Oh fuck this pretty smart ARP I'm thinking I might do this I might decide to go after this and then we go we make a hundred million dollar company that way There's a shitload of money to be made a shitload of money to be made um And from my point of view, that's something that could be super, super exciting. yeah So anyways, we we digress. This is part of demonize. Kids got to figure it out. I think they'd be smart to look at blue collar work because fewer kids are looking at blue collar work. Now let's move on from demonize to humanize. What does humanize mean to you, brother, in the father-son relationship?
Realizing the Humanize Phase
00:16:10
Speaker
you know, thinking about that that section and and even the word humanize, right? So that's that's the point in in life where where a man is starting to achieve his successes. ah He would be starting starting to become, you know, self-sufficient, probably, you know, living on their own.
00:16:29
Speaker
you know, paying their own bills, maybe even starting their own family. And at that point, there is when they realize, you know, what their father was doing back when when they were, you know, growing up in the previous phase of demonize phase, right? You know, that that's when when they'll come to that realization. He wasn't being an asshole.
00:16:50
Speaker
He was just trying to protect you from you know the wolves in the bushes, um you know trying to do his best for as long as he could until he couldn't do it no longer and you know setting a man up to be ah successful in his own life. And I think that's the and the humanizing part, right? Where the younger man comes to that full realization of what but the older man was trying to do and appreciates that after the fact and and brings the two men together. But this time, instead of you know the old bull and the young bull, it's more of two equals in a pack. So that's what the humanized face sounds like to me. That's exactly correct. Sets him up. um
00:17:42
Speaker
you know And I like that you said he now sees him as his his equal. equal yeah And not as the old bull trying to hold down the young bull.
00:17:59
Speaker
yeah
00:18:01
Speaker
That's beautiful. And Patrick Bet David, when he shared the story, He was talking about his own relationship with his father. I mean, you know he idolized his father, then his mother divorced his father. And he went into the demonized phase. Oh, my dad's this, my dad's that. And then yeah he started to become successful. And he said, oh my God, my dad, just all he's ever tried to do was like protect me, my sisters. ah And hes he's a human being. like He was just doing his best. you know He wasn't perfect, but he was doing his best. So I really like this. And I think this is terrific.
00:18:35
Speaker
then you know, um the Patrick Bet David version of the father-son relationship. i like I like that it all ends in eyes, it's alliterative, right? Like idolize, demise, humanize, yeah. Exactly, it rhymes, it's alliterative, it's very good. But you and I, we first became familiar with the stages of the father-son relationship through our work with the Sterling Men's Weekend and A. Justin Sterling, the originator of the Sterling Men's Weekend.
00:19:06
Speaker
um So if you don't mind, walk us through those stages, um, as per a Justin Sterling and his teachings. So, uh, the best stage, the stages. Yeah. The first stage would be the hero. He calls it the hero phase. And that's, you know, my, my father is a hero. Uh, again, can't do no wrong.
00:19:32
Speaker
idolized so far, almost exactly the same way as Patrick's model sounds. That's the hero. You can do no wrong, right? Do no wrong, yeah.
00:19:45
Speaker
Yeah, you're good you're looking for all the- So those two are very similar, right? So the hero phase is very similar to the idolized phase. In fact, i'd say that I'd say it's not just very similar, it's almost exactly the same. So there's really no no real differences for us to talk about. Okay, great. What's the second phase? Second phase is the competition phase. So now here, here as as best as I remember from ah from my weekend is when the son starts to compete with his father,
00:20:14
Speaker
and especially for the attention of his mother, which is kind of odd. Oh, interesting. So said say say more about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like this is when, you know, it's it's really it's really visible to see in boys when it comes to ah sports or games of sorts, right? Where, you know, the the the younger child is always trying to beat their father, right? And I think we can see this on TV, you know, when kids are playing basketball or at their father on the driveway or, you know, some other game. The younger son is always trying to beat the, you know, his father.
00:20:47
Speaker
And just so he can have bragging rights back to his mother, it's really like, who gives a shit if the kid beats his father other than his mother, right? And in a mother's eyes, a child can never do no wrong. So, you know, that's that's kind of how it goes and it builds up this frustration between the two, right? Because eventually, the young one will beat the older one.
00:21:10
Speaker
it's going It's going to happen. It's you know just a fact of nature. I remember when my son Kayvon started to beat me in one-on-one basketball.
00:21:26
Speaker
yeah Yeah, how was that? Well, it was actually kind of startling because he wasn't as tall as me, but he was more skilled than I was, and he was faster than I was. I was still stronger than he was, so I'd kind of foul him, and he'd just complain because I was fouling him. And I'd say, it's son, this one-on-one, man. You got you got to beat your old man. you You got to take your lumps. And then he beat me, and I'm like, shit, kid. And then not only did he beat me,
00:21:55
Speaker
um he would play one against me and his younger brother and now the two of us passing back and forth we could we could beat him but um it was hard still and as he became bigger and stronger he could even beat us one on two unless we got the ball and kept it away from him and scored every time but other than that if that wasn't the case we would just
00:22:21
Speaker
we we would we would be beat because he he was good he was strong he was fast he'd cut to the bucket he'd score he could out jump both of us um but yeah yeah so how's this different for example than demonize uh that's a that's a good question right because uh project by david was uh idolized demonized humans, right?
Comparing Father-Son Relationship Phases
00:22:45
Speaker
So it's not, I don't think it's, it's different. It's more, uh, it's kind of like more like at the transitionary period. Uh, so it's, it's, it's, it's transitionary, right? So, so it's, it's the buildup, right? And it, and it usually, uh, where it terminates is like the point of demonization. You know what I mean? Like, you so, so the son will compete with his father up until a point where, where the two will separate.
00:23:12
Speaker
You know, and and yeah you and I know this because we we call this the whole, you know, fuck you dad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the third ill show you, which is really not really called that. It's, it's, this is like, uh, it's like a, when a new star is born as an explosion and then, you know, the the two ends will separate. And then that's when a man goes into the seeking success phase or success phase where now he's on his own out in the world. Uh,
00:23:39
Speaker
you know And I think in pop culture, we see this when a son will leave his fan you know his his his home, his comfortable life, and go live in like some shitty apartment. you know But he's paying he's paying his own rent. He's buying his own stuff. He's taking care of himself. There's a whole lot of struggle.
00:23:57
Speaker
you know and you like oh ah what's a I know if if you follow ah Arnold Schwarzenegger a lot, You know, like in his younger days before he, before he won, uh, Mr. Olympia. Yeah. Before that, like he, like if you, like he's, he's got it up online. I've seen it before, but you see like, you know, you know, there was times where he had to, you know, eat dinner with friends or he wasn't going to eat at all because he had no money. Right. Um, almost like, uh, I think in Rocky one too, like, uh, man had a really shitty upbringing, right. Uh, but he was his own person. He was his own man paying his own way, you know, paying his own bills.
00:24:37
Speaker
So that's that's really really that point in building on his own successes, where he can take care of himself and then take care of his own family. that's That's really what the success phase is about, so that whole few stages kind of start the thought. So this is more similar to the demonized phase, right? It's kind of. like ah i Yeah, so the demonize is more of that, ah it's that part where where you know demonize covers the buildup of that friction in the competition phase and then it also covers that portion in the success phase where where the sun is out there on its own. He left home, fuck you, I'll go do my own. So so this is when you this is similar to demonize
00:25:29
Speaker
but not exactly the same, right? Not not exactly the same. So what do you what would you say is the key difference? um ah the So the the the way that a man goes through that phase, right? So it kicks off with this you know massive demonized launching event.
00:25:52
Speaker
and now And now a son is out there and in his own world, you know, showing or building success so he can come back to his father and say, look, I've done it. So it's it's um in in the success phase, it really it really, it's a transitionary period from demonized to humanized. Yeah. Right. Where we're humanized would be kind of the result towards the end of that phase, the success phase. Yeah. So,
00:26:18
Speaker
um
00:26:21
Speaker
So the ah FU dad stage, dad stage, stage is demonized and the beginning of human eyes, right? Yeah. Yeah. Of human eyes. Yeah. Once, once a son
00:26:49
Speaker
achieves some success, some measure of success, right? That's what we're going to call it. Some measure of success. Yes. The success is not exactly a a goal line that you reach. it'ss Success. just he begins to He begins to release demonization and he starts to humanize his father, right? Yeah. That's when you know a man will come to the realization now that his father wasn't just you know ah trying to be an asshole, but he's trying to protect them from, you know, the wolves in the bushes, and the bushes right? And the only way a man's going to realize that is when you experience this and has to deal with some wolves on his own. Now, you know, in law, it's law says that this is a, ah that age starts at the age of 18, where, you know, a man goes from boy to adult in the legal pretense. But, you know, it could happen sooner for some and later for others. Like I've heard of some men being on their own at the age of 16.
00:27:45
Speaker
leaving a potentially abusive situation at home and you know making it on their own or trying to and then others you know just because of the way the you know financial markets run now they're stuck at home until mid-20s sometimes even longer before they're able to get out there. It's the truth. but it it will have It will happen yeah it will it will happen.
00:28:08
Speaker
Yeah. And I think it's really good that you say that the only way a man can start to realize that his dad wasn't being an asshole and was just trying to protect him from the wolves is when he is forced to wrestle with some wolves himself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Got to face some of those wolves. Yeah. Okay. All right. Great. So what's the final stage?
00:28:34
Speaker
of the father son relationship according to justin sterling stage four so the last the last phase is i believe he calls it the ah the amend's phase Um, and this is really like, uh, this would be a little bit past, uh, humanized phase because now this is well into humanized, right? Like the immense phase, we've already started to humanize this way there because you're, uh, yeah, you're already past that, right? So that now you've already reached success. Now, you know, your relationship with your father has been restored, um, to a point now where the two of you are, are, you know, equals, you know, two equal men.
00:29:13
Speaker
And what the the immense phase concludes with is is what do you call it is thanking your father for the lessons that and he taught you because it made you the man and the success that you are today. And ultimately what it does is it gives your your father and permission you know to move on to the next phase of his life, which is ultimately his afterlife, right?
00:29:42
Speaker
But, you know, it relieves him of the burden of, you know, having to, you know, protect and teach his son how, you know, the ways of the world. Yeah. Yeah. So basically this is when you thank your father for all he has done for you to make you the man you are. Yep. The man you are. Make you the man you are and the success that you are.
00:30:12
Speaker
and the success you are. yeah And then the additionally, this ah this ah relieves him of his burden to care for you yeah well and gives him permission
00:30:42
Speaker
to almost to die with dignity, yeah yeah with dignity yeah and move on and move on. yeah to the afterlife. Yeah, i I really like this. And I gotta say, and I like Patrick Bet-David's take on the father-son relationship because the three phases are easy to comprehend. The fact that they rhyme and are alliterative makes it easy to stick in the mind. I think these things are important.
00:31:15
Speaker
But I also think it's incomplete. I think Justin Sterling's four phases of the father-son relationship frankly are more comprehensive and more complete and really more actually describe everything that a father and a son go through in their relationship. Because it it's almost like the the idolized phase and the hero phase, those are like bang on, I get it. But the competition phase,
00:31:41
Speaker
begins before any demonization has taken place. The kid isn't really demonizing his dad in competition. So it's above idolized and it's before demonized in that respect. So that he missed that. And then near the end of the competition phase where it goes into the seeking success, aka a fuck you dad phase, that's when all of a sudden the demonized comes in full force But even in this phase, near the end of this phase, the demonization has dropped, and you go into humanize. The problem is that humanize doesn't take into consideration the immense phase, where a man doesn't just humanize his father, but actually goes and thanks him for making him the man he wants to be. So I think, Patrick, that David and the pastor who taught him this, while this is useful, it's incomplete, and I prefer Justin Sterling's um stages of the father-son relationship big time big time preferring i think it's better i i haven't seen that that talk with patrick but david and his pastor but you you and i both know that you know this conversation that we've had now you know about the four stages is probably a shortened version of what starling you know goes through right he goes into a lot of depth and context around that you know where where yeah you're right patrick but david it's pretty easy like you need to say you know idolize
00:33:03
Speaker
That's humanized. It's very, very easy to kind of get the context of that. But when you you know start saying things like hero competition, success and immense, it's like, what the fuck does that mean? Right. So like there's a lot of context that that's required behind that. And I think one you know one of the other things, too, is like when we talk about the immense phase and thanking your father, you know, a lot of the questions end up coming up as like, well, you know, my father was an alcoholic. How do you thank an alcoholic for being the abusive alcoholic? It's like, look, man,
00:33:32
Speaker
Your father may show you how to live or how not to live by his decisions, right? So sometimes he's like, hey dad, thanks for showing me that being an abusive alcoholic isn't the way to raise a family. you know There's a lesson there for you to learn. And as long as you keep you know faulting the man for decisions that he's made, you're always gonna be a boy. But once you can gather that, you know thanks for showing me this is not what I have to be. you know There's a lot of power in that.
00:34:01
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, my father was not an alcoholic, but there was a period in his life where he drank a lot. And when he drank, he was a dick. You know what I mean? He was a really good man when he was sober, which was most of the time, he wasn't like, you know, getting drunk every day or anything like that. But once a month, once every three weeks, five weeks,
00:34:23
Speaker
He got drunk and this was for a period of about 10 years. And then he quit drinking cold turkey because he started to see what it was doing to him. And um but for him he did a um he did ah powerful thing for me because that example got me to go, I'm never going to fucking drink. Like I saw how he was and I'm like, I do not want to be like that. And I just made a decision at the age of eight or nine that I was never going to drink.
00:34:52
Speaker
And I've never had a drink. And I got to tell you, it's one of the best decisions I've ever made. But my father set me up to make that decision, Art, because yeah georgia he showed me what it could be. And I go, I'm his son. I could easily go down that road. I don't want to go down that road. And if you think about it for me, you know me really well. You know my personality. You know what I'm like. And imagine me as a dude who drank. It wouldn't be good, right? And imagine me as a- No, I wouldn't. And also, it's been a really good health decision. You know, you know I'm 57 years old. I'm really grateful for the physical and healthful condition that I'm in. And I know that a big part of it is I don't drink, I don't do drugs, I eat healthy food, I exercise, you know, I do personal development work like we're doing right now. And this is all because of my father.
00:35:44
Speaker
you know, my father gave me positive examples of, you know, seeking self development and growth. So doing courses like Sterling men's weekend and whatnot, because he was into that. But he also gave me negative ones based on some of his behaviors, which thankfully he shifted for himself as well. But ah the important thing is that it caused me to go fuck this, I don't ever want to do this. And I think that's very powerful. That's very powerful. So Art, this has been useful, this
Significance of Relationship Phases
00:36:12
Speaker
has been good. I think if a man's listening to this, he is a father, he's gonna benefit from this. If he's not a father, if he's just a son, he's gonna benefit from this. So, good job, really good job, nicely done. I think we we put together one of our best ever episodes today. Best ever, yeah. And I think if there's anyone that's listening to here and doesn't understand or and you know where he is or, you know,
00:36:38
Speaker
and Any questions, even in and around this content, by all means, come find us. You and I, we host ah in ah Zoom meetings every second week. We do. I think it's up on our ah on our website, right? All men are welcome. If you're unclear, uncertain, whatever, come reach us out, ask the questions.
00:37:00
Speaker
you know men always ask me why I do this. And for me, it's, it's, it's my way of, of giving back to, to, you know, men, men in society, right? Because society needs good men. And this is a day and age where a lot of good men are not hard, not easy to find anymore, right? They're not starting to become sparse. So, you know, I'm, I'm willing to help any, any man Yeah, and and that's that's one of the things I really respected my about you. So I'm going to say this to you. um I think I want to call our. a
00:37:36
Speaker
particular episodes inside the Sovereign Man podcast, the the the elders segments. These are the elders, where two of the elders, two men who've been around the block, who've created some level of success in our lives, you know, in in relationship, in business, in in health, can come and actually teach younger men some shit you you need to learn. And I'm going to say this to younger men that are listening to this, look,
00:38:03
Speaker
Your dad was who your dad was. Maybe your dad taught you everything you need to know to win in life. Maybe he didn't. But one of the things that you you used to have is you used to have access to a lot of elders that you could learn from. Now maybe you don't, but through this podcast and this elder segment, you do. You're gonna learn things that are gonna be valuable to you inside of your ah life, inside of your relationships. And in particular, if you're a new father with a son,
00:38:32
Speaker
you're gonna wanna fucking listen to this, you're gonna wanna take some really detailed notes, because it's a very powerful episode. Yeah. ah Fathers with sons, like you know youa just knowing, listening to this podcast, you'll understand what's to come and what needs to be done. yeah that's that's like the That's the heroic heroic part of being a father, is doing what needs to be done for the benefit of your kids and society. and we know We all wanna be the nice, the nice you know lovable, friendly dad, but sometimes, you know You need to do what needs to be done because it's right. Amen. Amen. Amen. Really well said. And every every man is a son. Not every man is going to be a father to a son, but every man is a son. So, at the very least, this's good this is going to illuminate for you your own relationship with your own father. And that's powerful, and that's important, and that's necessary.
00:39:32
Speaker
and Additionally, what this can do and will do for you is it's going to set you up to understand a relationship that you could have with your own son if you you have a son or you feel one day you might have a son, because you're going to want to know how to navigate that in a powerful way that's going to set both you and your son up for success. And I think that's extremely important. Yeah.
Future Discussion Topics
00:40:06
Speaker
Yeah. So so har this was good. Let's do it again real soon. And let's come up with another topic that's going to be useful and valuable for men out there in the world. And in the mean fucking time, bro,
00:40:20
Speaker
That is a wrap, and good to be with you. Bye-bye. Yeah, good Sunday. Have a good day, my love. Thank you for listening to The Sovereign Man podcast. If you're ready to take charge of your life and become the man you've always wanted to be, we invite you to join the movement at sovereignman.ca.