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00:00:01
We watch "Basics: Part 2" (S3 Ep.1)
10 Plays2 days ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Basics: Part 2”, in which Suder must face his demons, but we do love it when a plan comes together ;-).
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Theme music by Alain D
Recommended
Transcript
Opening Banter and Jingle Discussion
00:00:00
El Platypo
ah and That is how I disrupt you. You're not going to stand up and fight the corner of the chief.
00:00:06
Red D
Sorry, I got distracted.
00:00:08
El Platypo
you know the board course member
00:00:12
Red D
I'm not going to respond to anything cause Jenny's in charge today.
00:00:16
El Platypo
you know really they stand up and fight the corner of the chief
00:00:16
Jen
I am. What?
00:00:20
Red D
no
00:00:23
Jen
You know, I am and you know, I'm very comfortable with moderating when there's a a lovely script slash notes that Red has prepared. but The ad hoc stuff, that I'm struggling with.
00:00:35
El Platypo
that
00:00:35
Red D
What ad hoc stuff?
00:00:37
El Platypo
Oh, just act like you're the center of attention.
00:00:37
Jen
Like this whole, there's a jingle, we just have to make conversation over it.
00:00:42
El Platypo
Well, I typically act as though I'm the center of attention, and if I'm not, i'm and I ensure that I am.
00:00:43
Red D
Well, it's not...
00:00:48
El Platypo
That works for me.
00:00:48
Jen
Good, good.
00:00:49
Red D
oh
00:00:49
El Platypo
You might want to try that.
00:00:49
Jen
you a Yeah, I'm just wondering,
00:00:50
Red D
That's the bit. That's the bit that we do every week. Every two weeks. Or three weeks or four weeks.
00:00:56
El Platypo
There's a reason I only do it every two or three weeks, Reg. Tolerance of my co-hosts.
00:01:02
Red D
I guess this jingle's going on a very long time, so...
00:01:04
El Platypo
I'm loving this. This has got a drum and bass vibe that I'm warming to.
00:01:09
Red D
I'm sure my brother will.
00:01:09
El Platypo
Can mix in some Stormzy?
00:01:12
Jen
This is less of a jingle and more of an actual song. It was like one minute, one minute ten.
00:01:15
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:01:18
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:01:18
Jen
wonder how long jingles are supposed to go
00:01:21
Red D
I'm sure you see 15 seconds. I think I've said this before, but I don't know what happened.
00:01:23
El Platypo
Can we stop bickering about the jingle? Honestly. Just being as British as we can for the American audiences.
00:01:29
Jen
and
00:01:32
Jen
Yep.
Voyager Episode Recap
00:01:33
Jen
Hello Voyager fans. I'm moderating today. Now, let me take a look. We've done the theme music. One minute summary. Off you go, Jay.
00:01:45
El Platypo
ah Well, I think this minute summary is that it is a classic TBC. The crew have been unceremoniously booted off their ship.
00:01:58
El Platypo
And with the help of the resident imaginary computer person and crew serial killer, they gallantly take back the ship and also manage to survive a hostile planet, all the while giving a different member of the Tilection species the chance to suggest that Mr. Neelix isn't representative of their average competence level.
00:02:25
Red D
all right ah
00:02:27
Jen
Gosh.
00:02:28
El Platypo
I mean, I just wanted to make it about what was real here. Just talking about the issues.
00:02:32
Jen
Well done. I like it. Although, you know, you did not mention ah key character. For me anyway. Suda. Oh, did
00:02:41
Red D
Yes.
00:02:42
El Platypo
Who do you think I was referring to when I was talking about the crew serial killer?
00:02:46
Jen
oh did I miss that bit? Oh, I'm sorry.
00:02:47
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:02:48
Jen
Okay.
00:02:49
El Platypo
Yeah, I was like typecast. I was like, Yeah, the crew comp computer imaginary person and crew serial killer gallantly take back the ship. Without the help of any Triffids, I might add.
00:02:58
Red D
Jay was probably...
00:02:58
Jen
ah
00:03:01
Red D
Jenny was probably trying to figure out who you meant by the crew imaginary person and got distracted. You mean the doctor, right?
00:03:06
El Platypo
Uh...
00:03:06
Jen
Well, yeah, I got a bit distracted mostly by the Talaxian because like I was trying to work out where that was going because they weren't in it so much. fact, well, Neenix was in a bit, but the other Talaxians were barely in it.
00:03:17
Jen
So I think, did I miss that one?
00:03:17
El Platypo
Well, you know, the the long-lost Talaxian sign of Jeremy Paxman, the gallant Commander Paxman, um was definitely front and centre in this.
00:03:29
Jen
Oh yeah, Jeremy Paxman.
00:03:29
Red D
Was that his name?
00:03:30
El Platypo
I think it was come Commander Paxman, yeah.
00:03:32
Red D
Oh, no worries.
Reactions to Kazon Story Arc
00:03:35
Jen
Okay, thank you. That was a wonderful one minute summary though. Very nice. And you mentioned Suda, so you know.
00:03:38
El Platypo
yeah It wasn't as rude as some of my others, and it was more one-minute shape than some of my others. It's average, verging on
00:03:43
Jen
It was. It was beautiful. Now, initial reactions. I'm going to go first because had a strong initial reaction. which I'm afraid was, oh God, still going on.
00:03:55
El Platypo
yeah
00:04:00
Jen
No, I mean, there are some good bits, obviously. I don't want to be too negative, but it's just the whole Kazon story arc. I'm just always very keen to get past that bit because I really like all the stuff that's coming.
00:04:12
Jen
You know, all the Borg and certain additional crew members and species.
00:04:16
Red D
Jenny, if i had enough time on my hands, I would go back through all the episodes and create a clip episode of all the times you've said, i can't wait for the Borg. It would be so funny.
00:04:28
El Platypo
I just...
00:04:28
Jen
Yep, yep. I have a secret plan in the book.
00:04:30
El Platypo
I... Yeah, I i kind of felt a little bit like in this one, the whole the Kazon are really, really stupid and Seska is the only competent one just got massively overplayed.
00:04:42
Jen
Just in this episode.
00:04:42
El Platypo
So... Well, hey I sort of noticed it more in this one and than in some of the others, but yeah, it was... It was very clear.
00:04:49
Red D
But they are the brawn and she is the brains, I think.
00:04:50
El Platypo
don't
00:04:52
Jen
Oh, but that was that bit where, you know, the The Marge colour seemed genuinely upset when he lost his other half.
00:04:55
El Platypo
know.
00:05:01
Red D
Yes, that's true.
00:05:03
Jen
And you know, you don't often see them with any real emotion. I think that's probably why, that's probably partly why I don't really engage with the K-Zord as a baddie. um I mean, i I say that, but the Borg don't have any emotion, so I don't know.
00:05:18
El Platypo
yeah
00:05:19
Jen
Clearly that's an incorrect rationale.
00:05:23
Red D
But they look cooler, the Borg.
00:05:23
Jen
um They do, yeah. That was my initial reaction. But you know there were there was bits I like as well too.
00:05:31
El Platypo
I
00:05:34
Jen
Jamie, or Red, initial reactions?
00:05:37
El Platypo
um in on na yeah i mean, I've sort of given mine, I think, in that...
00:05:40
Red D
Good, Rachel.
00:05:45
El Platypo
so Yeah, it was an episode-long demonstration of the redemption of one particular Delta Quadrant species.
00:05:56
El Platypo
um And there was lots of overplaying that the caves in are very, very thick. But in a way, I kind of like it, because they make a very good, childish sort of first and second season baddie that you know is is overcome in the way that you know all first and second season baddies...
00:06:02
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:06:17
El Platypo
should be without moral compromise but you know still coming close enough to being a threat. um And now we can get on with the deep and the dark stuff. So yeah, I liked it. And I also liked the fact there wasn't some season-long thing of how the crew were surviving on the planet for an entire season whilst Paris, Souter and the Doctor tried to get the ship back i like the fact it was wrapped up in one because i always find that sort of season development a little bit tedious.
00:06:49
Jen
What
00:06:50
Red D
Yes, I feel like that's something they would try now, but not but I agree.
00:06:55
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:06:56
Red D
It's Star Trek, it must be happening in space.
00:07:00
El Platypo
Yep. Yep.
00:07:03
Jen
about you, Red?
00:07:04
Red D
Well, I was just very excited because I do love the Suda character and I knew from watching this a million times what was going to happen to him. And the actor is so good.
00:07:16
Red D
ah But yes, if I'm honest, I have to say there's some bits that I was like, this feels a bit more like a kid's show. kind of maybe tie back to what you said.
00:07:26
El Platypo
ah so
00:07:27
Jen
one
00:07:31
Red D
And I realized that through having a younger brother and sister, I've often learned how to tune stuff out. So if I'm losing interest, I kind of just gloss over it a bit.
00:07:39
El Platypo
ah
00:07:39
Red D
I'm excited for like the next bit that I want to see.
00:07:41
El Platypo
yes
00:07:43
Red D
but I do think there was a lot I loved, but I can kind of see why you said that you did to change.
00:07:49
El Platypo
I mean, i'm quite I quite enjoyed this one. I don't know. Maybe I'm...
00:07:52
Red D
I did very much enjoy it, but I can see the weaknesses, I guess, a little but
00:07:57
Jen
yeah and to be fair by that
00:07:57
El Platypo
This episode had no weaknesses. This is an outrage. I'm not allowing Red to be compromising and sit on the fence.
00:08:02
Red D
bit.
00:08:06
Red D
No, but I did really enjoy it. But to a 2025 audience, it could come across maybe as a bit childish or as a risky.
00:08:13
El Platypo
Hey, they had a serial killer with weird cold dead eyes and everything red.
00:08:15
Red D
That's true.
00:08:18
Jen
well that but that was the good bit that was the grown-up storyline i think that whole you know
00:08:18
El Platypo
serial killer had to go back to killing when he didn't want to.
00:08:25
Red D
Yeah.
00:08:27
Jen
it sort of mirrored to me like someone overcoming an addiction.
00:08:27
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:08:32
Jen
And that was quite a grown up storyline.
00:08:32
Red D
Oh,
00:08:33
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:08:34
Jen
You know, he's, but someone with an addiction that's something like food, for example, where you're having to actually do the thing, expose yourself to your addiction.
00:08:38
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:08:42
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:08:42
Red D
oh yeah.
00:08:45
Jen
Anyway, but um yeah, I, it's a really good point actually. The whole childishness of the Kazon as ah a, as a baddie, like I have new appreciation for them.
00:08:54
El Platypo
Even the fact we call them a baddie.
00:08:56
Jen
Huh?
00:08:57
El Platypo
Even the fact we call them a baddie as an adversary or what's the word?
00:08:59
Jen
Yeah, yeah. You...
00:09:04
Red D
No, they're just baddies.
00:09:04
El Platypo
You know what?
00:09:05
Jen
Well, the K's and the Baddies
00:09:06
El Platypo
What's the word?
Milestones and Listener Engagement
00:09:07
Jen
and the Borger adversaries.
00:09:08
Red D
Yeah.
00:09:09
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:09:11
Jen
Yeah. no ah to be But to be clear, my initial reaction was very much to realising that it was this episode at the start. But, you know, as it went on, obviously, then I remember that actually I really liked the Suda storyline and also the Doctor storyline.
00:09:19
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:09:28
El Platypo
since
00:09:29
Jen
You know And I even kind of like little bits of the whole tribal thing, Chikoté and the tribe.
00:09:33
Red D
Yes.
00:09:34
Jen
um
00:09:34
Red D
Oh.
00:09:34
Jen
But we'll get onto that, i guess. And I see that someone has put in but down one cool thing.
00:09:36
Red D
Yeah.
00:09:40
Red D
Well, yes, we don't often have one cool thing because so but I don't do much research anymore. But we're on season three now, guys. I think we should acknowledge that.
00:09:49
Jen
Whoop, whoop, whoop.
00:09:50
Red D
This is season three, episode one. ah I think it's our 43rd episode overall.
00:09:54
El Platypo
I would like to announce that
00:09:57
Red D
And we surpassed 1,000 downloads a couple of I guess a week or two ago maybe, or three weeks ago. So so let you know. And if you've downloaded and listened, thank you.
00:10:08
Red D
But I still can't believe that might be the case.
00:10:10
Jen
No, i but I'm sure it must be Bops.
00:10:12
El Platypo
I can't believe it's as few as that. Who are you people? What the hell you think you're playing at?
00:10:15
Jen
Terrifying.
00:10:18
Jen
Terrifying. But also... Congrats!
00:10:22
El Platypo
Nice.
00:10:23
Red D
mean? Or to our listeners?
00:10:25
Jen
Yeah, I don't know. What do you say when you...
00:10:27
Red D
oralist does
00:10:27
Jen
I don't know what the dingo is in the podcast world. Well done. Pat on the back for everyone.
00:10:33
Red D
Yes.
00:10:33
El Platypo
nice
00:10:33
Jen
Okay. Moving on
Critique of Neelix's Decisions
00:10:35
Jen
swiftly. So... so Who are we going to go with first? Let's go red. You get your first point.
00:10:41
Red D
Okay. Well, I guess my first point is from right near the beginning. And it has been a few years since I've watched this episode, but they're on the planet and Neelix has been sent off with Mr. Hogan or Hogan or something like that.
00:10:55
El Platypo
No. Yes,
00:10:56
Red D
And, well, just, yeah there's just a scene where we see this crewman Hogan standing in front of a cave and I was like, uh-oh. Because even though I haven't watched it or you walked by heart, I just had some kind of muscle memory that something bad was to happen to this guy.
00:11:05
El Platypo
I see. Beautiful.
00:11:09
Red D
Or it was that classic, oh, they're focusing on this extra something bad is going happen to him because that's the standard pattern.
00:11:13
El Platypo
Yes.
00:11:13
Jen
Yep.
00:11:16
Red D
ah But I have to say...
00:11:17
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:11:19
Red D
Neelix was not the most sensible at this point because this guy is standing in front of the cave. Neelix joins him. They find these bones of humanoids in front of the cave. And Neelix is like, oh, this is like a do not disturb sign.
00:11:32
Red D
But then properly tells Hogan to collect them for weapons or ah tools alone.
00:11:34
El Platypo
yes but Yeah.
00:11:36
Jen
I know.
00:11:38
Red D
And also I'm like, well, are they a do not disturb sign or are they tools? What are you talking about? And so later when Neelix says it wasn't my fault, I have to be honest, I think it was a lot his fault.
00:11:50
El Platypo
you know, jump in? Because that sort of sakes onto my first publish.
00:11:54
Red D
Yeah.
00:11:55
El Platypo
Of course, the first and only casualty is down to Neelix. On earth could you let him order anyone around on a hostile planet. The man should been locked up and probably sectioned.
00:12:04
Red D
Oh yeah, he's a team lead. No.
00:12:09
Jen
I have to take issue with only
Analysis of Creature Involvement
00:12:11
Jen
though, because I don't know if you notice it, because it's kind of, only it' you sort of, off screen you don't quite see it I'm not sure I've ever noticed it before to be honest but in this time I did you know when they're edging past the serpent monster thing and someone falls down and they're lifting him up you know extra number two don't think they get him up do they animal eats him it doubles him and there's this cry and I never really noticed it before because it it was such a time is over it was over in a second but
00:12:24
Red D
Ah, yes.
00:12:25
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:12:28
Red D
Oh, okay.
00:12:30
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:12:32
Red D
Okay, I'll have to go.
00:12:33
El Platypo
I feel good too, yeah. Does it? Aww.
00:12:40
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:12:45
Jen
It's harsh, man.
00:12:47
Red D
Oh, gosh, that's horrific.
00:12:47
Jen
Yeah, I think rewatch because honestly, I think it's the first time I've ever noticed that.
00:12:48
Red D
gonna have to go rewatch that.
00:12:53
El Platypo
But
00:12:54
Jen
I just assume they pull him to safety and they all run out. But they yeah, and then when you notice it, you realize that there's an accompanying scream.
00:12:57
Red D
Yes, one person died. That's enough.
00:12:59
El Platypo
but do we think
00:13:02
Jen
And actually, it's really quite chilling.
00:13:04
El Platypo
so I have an important question to table do we think that the creature that you're referencing which from here on in I'm going to call Star Trek Smaug was the one that actually got hateho Hogan hagen hogan um Mr Hogan because I don't know and that that didn't seem like it could go particularly fast and the thing that we got the first person view running Hogan down very satisfyingly seemed quite quick
00:13:35
Red D
I think there was a bit of a disconnect between what was alluded to and what we saw. So maybe they were different.
00:13:41
El Platypo
Yeah. Different predator.
00:13:42
Red D
More than one monster in the mountain.
00:13:43
Jen
Hmm.
00:13:45
Jen
Yeah, I had assumed it was just the same.
00:13:46
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:13:47
Jen
But I mean, because it's a kind of serpent, isn't it?
00:13:48
El Platypo
Maybe.
00:13:51
Jen
and and
00:13:51
El Platypo
Yeah. know
00:13:52
Jen
And snakes can move quite, you know, smoothly and calmly, but also they can...
00:13:54
El Platypo
So.
00:13:58
Jen
What's the word? and Not pounce, but...
00:14:01
Red D
They can move quickly.
00:14:02
El Platypo
Scurry.
00:14:02
Red D
That's true.
00:14:02
Jen
and Yeah, when they're attacking, biting, they can move pretty fast.
00:14:03
El Platypo
Slurry first. Slurry first. Yeah.
00:14:08
Jen
Anyway. I have to say, I think it's really funny that we all had down something about that Neelix theme at the start, because I had them down as well.
00:14:12
El Platypo
Yeah Yeah Yeah yeah hu
00:14:15
Jen
i i just didn't really understand the weird reaction of, you know, here are some bones. Oh, they're at the entrance to a dark cave. Oh, the bones are human. Oh, let's gather them for tools.
00:14:27
Jen
You know, there's literally no concern, no worry.
00:14:27
Red D
Yes.
00:14:28
El Platypo
Like what the hell How are you acting like this isn't gruesome sort of thing
00:14:33
Red D
Also, after acknowledging the fact that you take it as a warning sign, like not like, you know, so...
00:14:40
Jen
Yeah, it's very, yeah, I agree.
00:14:42
Red D
yeah He had the right instinct
Fire-Making Scene Critique
00:14:45
Red D
and then just completely overrode it.
00:14:48
Jen
It's also really jarring that scene, I think, because it's sort comedic. i don't know if it's meant to be, or this it feels like it's meant to be kind of comedic, but also this guy is gonna be killed by a monster.
00:14:58
Red D
Yes.
00:15:01
Jen
So it's quite serious, really. It's not not that funny. ah So very strange, very strange scene.
00:15:05
Red D
Yeah.
00:15:11
Jen
Anywho, that was my first point Sue. Back to you Red.
00:15:14
Red D
Oh, okay. Well, I... Building on your smog point, ah don't come at me by pronouncing it incorrectly, internet, and by internet I mean the four people that might listen to this episode.
00:15:26
El Platypo
So can I come at you for not pronouncing correctly?
00:15:27
Red D
No, you cannot.
00:15:28
El Platypo
Because I'm not the internet, I'm here. It's Smaug!
00:15:30
Red D
No. I said, but there were a couple of moments and I tried to group them together in this episode that reminded me of other films.
00:15:32
El Platypo
Smaug!
00:15:35
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:15:38
Red D
Um, so I did group them all together. So when Tom Paris is returning in the shuttle and he's under attack from the Kazon and he keeps saying, I don't have time for this.
00:15:44
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:15:46
Red D
I don't have time for this. And he blows up the, like the Kazon ship and he's like, I really said, I really don't have time for this.
00:15:51
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:15:52
Red D
It reminded me of films. I don't think I might've seen, but knew of as a child, lethal weapon.
00:15:58
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:15:59
Red D
And the guy who goes, ah ah I'm too old for this shit.
00:16:00
El Platypo
Yeah. so yeah
00:16:03
Jen
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
00:16:05
Red D
I have a little flashback to that. um Then Tuvok reminded me a lot of Legolas when he was brandishing that bow and arrow and sending arrows into smog.
00:16:15
Jen
yeah
00:16:16
Red D
And... the um The caves reminded me of a little ah little bit of Helm's Deep when they were kind of collecting firewood and repairing to go to...
00:16:24
El Platypo
yeah
00:16:24
Red D
I know this was made before the Lord the Rings, but... and And then finally, this is a very random reference and no longer very PC, but... And also, I had this like reaction in quite a sad scene because didn't really realize that Seska was dying when she's crawling back to her baby.
00:16:40
El Platypo
Hmm. Yeah.
00:16:42
Red D
but her baby is completely fine.
00:16:42
El Platypo
I didn't realize either.
00:16:44
Red D
And in my mind, I just heard the baby is fine, which is ah line from lesser known skit from Little Britain where there's a real baby.
00:16:51
El Platypo
Oh no, that's so horrible.
00:16:53
Red D
It's like the baby is fine. I'm taking a very bad impersonation. The baby is fine.
00:16:58
El Platypo
Um.
00:16:59
Red D
And he's like this creepy guy. He's babysitting and like showing the baby like, like, I don't know, communist videos
Discussion on Viewing Habits and Shows
00:17:08
Red D
or something. I can't remember.
00:17:10
Red D
But for me, it was actually my favorite skit from Little Britain. I don't know if i all think that if I saw it now, but I don't how to find it. But yeah, a couple of things. just I kept having flashes to other things for some reason during this episode.
00:17:23
Jen
I mean, you've made me want to rewatch Little Britain now, partly because of that. And I don't I don't actually remember that scene, but I do remember other scenes, but also because there's so much controversy about it now.
00:17:33
El Platypo
Yeah, Jake.
00:17:34
Jen
And I, I want to rewatch it as a as an adult and see if it is like offensive as you know as if everyone makes up.
00:17:41
El Platypo
Yeah, I remember it being pretty offensive.
00:17:44
Red D
It was offensive at the time.
00:17:44
El Platypo
Okay.
00:17:45
Red D
I mean, not like, I don't mean like offensive as in people got offended, but obviously they were taking the mickey out of stuff.
00:17:46
Jen
I didn't I didn't realize at the time was quite young.
00:17:51
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:17:54
Red D
I mean, it's, it's humor, right?
00:17:54
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:17:55
Jen
Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:56
Red D
But I haven't watched it in a long time, but I did love that skin about the babysitter. So I will try to write that down and see if I still love it.
00:18:03
Jen
I just remember the really creepy, um, like, I guess he was like black faced, which is awful now, but, um, I don't know.
00:18:06
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:18:10
El Platypo
Oh, gosh.
00:18:11
Red D
I don't remember that one.
00:18:13
Jen
It's like this creepy character. Um, and he had this really creepy voice. I really don't, have to rewatch it. Um,
00:18:20
Red D
Gosh, I remember like all the vomiting. The lady always vomits because she's racist, I guess.
00:18:23
El Platypo
Hmm. Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:18:24
Jen
oh
00:18:27
Red D
um it is The patient and the psychiatric facility.
00:18:32
Jen
either racist or lady, I do remember. um Oh, actually, you know what read? I mean, this complete tangent, sorry. but um i We were watching, just, yeah, just, we were watching Rizzolion Isles, which he recommended to us.
00:18:42
Red D
Pity, I love a pity.
00:18:49
Red D
Very good.
00:18:50
El Platypo
Mm-hmm.
00:18:52
Jen
And um I mean, actually, forgive me if I already brought this up in previous conversations, but there is this one scene with this, like, racist, homophobic, all the, you know, all the bad things, little grandma.
00:19:02
El Platypo
Mm-hmm.
00:19:04
Jen
And Rizzoli's like trying to interview her as a witness or something. ah But it is the most hilarious scene. And I just cannot stop laughing about It's something about the way the the grandma portrays this like racist, homophobic old grandma, which is absolutely hilarious.
00:19:15
Red D
yeah
00:19:18
El Platypo
Mm-hmm.
00:19:22
Jen
And, you know, I just felt the need to tell you because you recommended the show to us.
00:19:25
Red D
Oh, I do enjoy that show, and I think I might be gearing up for another rewatch, actually, because I'm watching quite a dark, not dark, but dark for me show at the moment, and then Rizzoli.
00:19:36
Red D
But it's also crime, but then I like to go back to something like Rizzoli and Isles, which is crime, but yeah.
00:19:40
Jen
It's so lighthearted.
00:19:41
El Platypo
After the first episode of Chasing the Serial Killer, who you know apparently likes to crucify people,
00:19:42
Jen
Everyone's good.
00:19:45
Jen
Oh. Yeah, that was creepy. It's not, it's like even more lighthearted now than at the beginning, isn't it?
00:19:49
Red D
Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:52
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:19:52
Jen
Also, did you know that Isles is in an episode of Friends?
00:19:59
Red D
Ah, no, but she is from... I've got to be honest, I'm sure I often confuse their names. Is she the law and order person or the... Is she the dark-haired one or the blonde one for a better description?
00:20:11
Jen
she is the person from like i don't know safe or digest or something that comes to interview jerry when he's on
00:20:20
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:20:21
Red D
But which one in Rosorian Isles is Isles?
00:20:24
Jen
oh i i'll just the um you know forensic um yeah um
00:20:29
Red D
Oh, okay. Oh, wow. Actually, I watched The Nonas, sorry, guys, while I was in Nonas, because I think that's I said it in the film, that like Vince Vaughn film about the restaurant.
00:20:39
Red D
And Rizzoli's mom is in it as one of The Nonas.
00:20:44
Jen
Oh
00:20:44
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:20:44
Red D
Yeah. was like, where do I know this lady? Where do I know this lady? It took me a little while figure out.
00:20:47
El Platypo
Yeah. Hmm.
00:20:48
Jen
oh my god. so I don't know why, you know when you get a lot of things pop up on your your Facebook feed and then
Trivia and Behind-the-Scenes Facts
00:20:55
Jen
you you make the mistake of accidentally glancing at them, hovering for more than two seconds and then it's just filled.
00:21:00
Red D
Yes.
00:21:01
El Platypo
yeah
00:21:02
Jen
So now I'm getting all this friends trivia so it's like we got my head up with all this use of information which you know I feel the need to pass on. But one interesting thing was that um Did you know that Chandler's in real life father?
00:21:15
Red D
Yes. didn't know.
00:21:16
Jen
Yeah, was in it. It was in an episode.
00:21:18
Red D
I don't know.
00:21:19
El Platypo
Is
00:21:19
Red D
I didn't know that.
00:21:20
Jen
Yeah, and he plays um Joshua's father.
00:21:20
Red D
Sorry.
00:21:25
Jen
Joshua, the guy who Rachel dates.
00:21:25
Red D
Oh my gosh. Okay, did not know that.
00:21:28
El Platypo
Huh?
00:21:29
Jen
Anyway, lots lots of useless...
00:21:30
Red D
I know who his stepdad is, but I did not know that.
00:21:34
Jen
um
00:21:34
Red D
Okay.
00:21:35
Jen
Yeah, there's all kinds of... Yeah, it's so much. Oh, there's another one where... You know that scene where they all come into the coffee house and... they say oh because they can't sit down because the seats are all taken up and that although taken up by the creators of friends yeah anyway that's enough sorry anyway massive tangents here oh there must be so many of them surely even more than Voyager podcast um so ah oh I think it was my yes I think it's me next um oh yes this is this is very lighthearted guys
00:21:44
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:21:47
Red D
Oh, that's cool.
00:21:47
El Platypo
Huh?
00:21:50
Red D
That's cool. We'll have to start our Friends podcast next.
00:21:56
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:22:04
Red D
That was me last, think.
00:22:11
Jen
just to preface this um I have such an issue with the fire scene, with the making of fire, because we are fairly recent homeowners and have for the first time our own fireplace, lovely Victorian fireplace, real wood fire.
00:22:17
El Platypo
Oh, no. and
00:22:26
Jen
And so I feel now I have become an expert in fire making.
00:22:27
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:22:30
Red D
okay
00:22:31
Jen
And A, don't know, why was he trying to make a fire in the first place without kindling?
00:22:31
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:22:36
Jen
Like,
00:22:36
Red D
Yes, that was a good question.
00:22:36
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:22:38
Jen
you And when they find the kindling by cutting off everyone's hair, like literally in the same scene behind them is loads of reeds and grass and stuff that is much more appropriate kindling.
00:22:38
Red D
Yes.
00:22:39
El Platypo
No.
00:22:44
El Platypo
No.
00:22:49
El Platypo
yes
00:22:51
El Platypo
They've got to show Janeway putting it down and you know sacrificing herself for the crew.
00:22:56
Jen
Sacrificing her hair. Yeah.
00:22:58
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:22:59
Red D
I told you, they were obsessed with their hair. So, I mean, like people in Hollywood. ah but So maybe...
00:23:04
El Platypo
Yeah, she sacrificed
00:23:05
Jen
Any excuse? Yeah.
00:23:08
Jen
That was my hearted run.
00:23:09
Red D
So is that not, cause I was like, oh, that's a very handy survival trick. I mean, yes, the the lack of kindling to start was and like inexplicable, I guess.
00:23:17
El Platypo
Unacceptable, will say.
00:23:18
Red D
yeah But I was like, okay, remember, note yourself, remember hair can be kindling.
00:23:23
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:23:23
Jen
Yeah, because like the whole point of the rubbing of wood together is it generates or rubbing wood on stone or whatever was doing is it generates a spark and the spark then catches on the kindling.
00:23:31
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:23:33
Jen
So how How are we gonna, anyway, that's enough, that's enough.
00:23:37
Red D
yeah when I think that when I first used to see that concept in TV shows, I mean, like as a kid, I don't think they had Kindling in there. So I thought you could just start a fire. like i mean, this is what I thought as a child.
00:23:47
Red D
Well, just...
00:23:48
Jen
I wonder, I always thought people did it with dry leaves.
00:23:49
Red D
Seriously...
00:23:51
Jen
You know, they'd have wooden stone or wooden wood with dried leaves around it. don't know. Anyway, like you said, very late hearted. I really don't know nothing about it.
00:23:59
El Platypo
and
00:23:59
Red D
well i
00:24:01
Jen
think of myself as a fire expert having got a fire now, but not really.
00:24:01
Red D
sees
00:24:06
Red D
Well, I'm glad to hear you're a fire expert. That's always very handy. But i I had something around that point. so i was once So maybe I'll just throw it in here instead of having a separate one for me.
00:24:17
Red D
But out of interest, how long would it take you to start eating those worms they found under the rocks into the being trapped on an alien planet?
00:24:23
El Platypo
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
00:24:28
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:24:29
Jen
Well, realistically, I like to think I'd eat them straight away, to be honest, because, I mean, not that I know much about survival, but yeah, you want to keep your energy reserves up as much as possible right from the start, don't you?
00:24:38
Red D
But that is the logical thing to do.
00:24:47
Jen
So God knows, though.
00:24:48
El Platypo
a
00:24:50
Red D
ah think I might last a day or two, but I think the hunger would eventually get the better of me.
00:24:50
Jen
What about you?
00:24:55
El Platypo
yeah i mean uh um depends on if i heard the skipper's pep talk
00:25:08
Jen
just sense
00:25:09
Red D
If you thought you were going to make it or not, or that you have to or not.
00:25:12
El Platypo
Well, well yeah just in case I heard her, because if I heard her, it would annoy me and it would take me longer.
00:25:17
Red D
ah Okay.
00:25:20
Jen
I think we're on you now, Jake.
00:25:23
El Platypo
right uh so i just i um i take issue with uh how star trek voyager plays fast and loose with which elements of his heritage chakotay is allegedly allowed to draw from for the purposes of the plot uh in this instance being quote unquote the only native american who doesn't know how to light a fire and doesn't use a bow and arrow, but in other episodes apparently knows how to spirit walk with skill.
Chakotay's Skills and Heritage
00:25:53
El Platypo
um
00:25:55
Red D
those are all different skills. So do you have to be proficient in all of them?
00:25:57
El Platypo
I they just feel they play inconsistently with the explanation of Chakotay's ability set based on heritage, and i would like it to be done a bit more consistently.
00:26:11
El Platypo
um
00:26:11
Red D
But they want to be a bit boring. Like, okay, yes. Then like, um, you'll be a bit stereotypical.
00:26:16
El Platypo
Well, I mean, I would just like to point out that they are in a hyper-technological era, and yet it feels like the one thing that he is most able at doing is spirit walking or something to that effect.
00:26:20
Jen
Okay.
00:26:29
El Platypo
And um that sort of feels like the most counter to the whole magic is not a thing thing of Star Trek.
00:26:40
Red D
Yeah, I mean, I guess I see what you're saying, but I can see why they would not want to make him too... You don't want to always pull on a character because of their background or something.
00:26:50
El Platypo
and
00:26:52
El Platypo
but
00:26:53
Red D
But...
00:26:54
El Platypo
But I would say mostly because I'd have preferred Chakotay Legolas type.
00:26:59
Red D
He would have made a good Legolas. To be honest, him and Tuvok being Legolas, I would have been very happy with that.
00:27:05
Jen
You know what, it would have missed out on that moment though, where I feel like there's a little bit of and smugness in the way Takote says to Tuvok, oh, well you've completely misunderstood my tribal background.
00:27:14
Red D
yes
00:27:16
Jen
I don't know how to use the word or an arrow. And then unfortunately Tuvok comes back with, well, actually this is for me because I'm proficient.
00:27:22
Red D
because
00:27:22
El Platypo
yeah
00:27:23
Jen
You know, little bit of rivalry going on. ah
00:27:26
Red D
ah Because...
00:27:26
El Platypo
and
00:27:26
Jen
I'm sorry.
00:27:27
Red D
It's because he was like, he taught archery at the academy or something.
00:27:30
El Platypo
Can I also ask why they're teaching archery at the Vulcan Academy?
00:27:31
Jen
Yeah.
00:27:32
Red D
know.
00:27:35
El Platypo
Surely they should be like teaching them firing spaceships at each other and stuff, not like bows and arrows.
00:27:41
Red D
Jamie, how can you ask that question when they're stranded on an alien planet and that's all they
00:27:44
El Platypo
I thought the whole the whole aim of Starfleet training was to avoid a situation in which you're stuck on a planet having to use a bow and arrow.
00:27:51
Red D
have?
00:27:54
Red D
And presumably mitigate any risks if that does happen, I guess.
00:27:57
El Platypo
I think their whole point was supposed to be that risk is managed away from being in any way likely, so there is no need to pay the budget for an archer or master of a Vulcan Academy.
00:28:08
Red D
I guess...
00:28:09
El Platypo
That's budget that could be put to phaser aiming.
00:28:12
Jen
There's no budget in Star Trek world.
00:28:12
El Platypo
would suspect
00:28:14
Jen
They just have endless budget.
00:28:14
Red D
But I think Jamie...
00:28:15
El Platypo
They probably get their defence budget up to 3% in staff lease well.
00:28:18
Red D
think Jamie, you're right. In today's world, that is the first class that would have been cut. i but Yeah.
00:28:26
Jen
Poor Archery.
00:28:29
Jen
So, oh, I've lost track of it.
00:28:30
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:28:32
Jen
I think we're red next.
00:28:33
Red D
Oh, yes. um Well, I did love a couple of the doctor's lines.
The Doctor's Wit and Motivational Video
00:28:41
Red D
um I wish I'd written down more, but...
00:28:44
Red D
Let me start with, I loved him when he was, he discovered he was a alone on the ship. but And he said something like, what am I going to do Lead a revolt with a team from Sandrine's, you know, the further
00:28:54
Jen
Oh yes, I love that bit.
00:28:54
El Platypo
like I love that line. Love that line.
00:28:57
Red D
that was great. And um when he, he, I guess, so as ro when he, Jonak- discover suitors on board or when they connect and he's like well it's one more hologram and one sociopath might not be a match for the case on like let's give it a go like. Anna Jonak- Those are not exact word for word quote sorry wrong but I he had a lot of humor and there's more great stuff that he did but i'll leave that for another point, but just a couple of his lines were excellent as usual.
00:29:23
Jen
As always, love the Doctor. was thinking also about how great he is at the, what do you call monologue, soliloquy.
00:29:30
Red D
Jonak- Yes.
00:29:33
Jen
um You know, he manages to do it in a way that it really suits his character. You know, like it doesn't really seem that melodramatic. Anyone else doing a soliloquy, unless it's in Shakespeare or something, is a bit hammy, isn't it?
00:29:46
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:29:49
Jen
And a bit OTT, but it just really suits him, I think.
00:29:49
El Platypo
yeah
00:29:53
Jen
It's hilarious.
00:29:53
Red D
It suits him and he does it so well that you don't get, I don't want bored, but you know, you can sometimes, yeah, he's great. It suits him, his character.
00:30:01
El Platypo
It feels like a plausible exploration of the situation from him.
00:30:05
Red D
Yes. Yes. So he can deliver what they, what's it called?
00:30:08
Jen
Absolutely.
00:30:10
Red D
my gosh, I've gone blank.
00:30:12
El Platypo
A dramatic device?
00:30:13
Red D
No, oh my gosh, they call laying the pipe, but that's like a more of slang term. ah Oh my god, exposition. He can deliver exposition really well, because he can like tell you something that you need to know, but in a way that feels entertaining.
00:30:23
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:30:26
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:30:28
Jen
Oh interesting, I think I have to look up exposition. I don't really, I'm not sure I know what it means.
00:30:31
Red D
I think it's exposition.
00:30:32
Jen
I'm going to Google that later. um Okay, so I'm actually surprised I didn't have much. Although I do have one Dr. Loving comment in my little list.
00:30:41
Red D
I kind of didn't write down so many of his lines, because I was like, Jenny will cover this, I'm sure.
00:30:41
Jen
I
00:30:46
Jen
know, yeah, I'm surprised I don't have more on him.
00:30:46
Red D
Yeah.
00:30:49
Jen
um
00:30:49
Red D
And for some reason, I just didn't check your notes. I was like, I just assumed.
00:30:52
Jen
it Oh, I never check you guys' notes. I like to be, you know, surprised.
00:30:57
Red D
Yeah, I just also wanted to do that. So I'm sure was.
00:31:00
Jen
Very sensible. I did say, okay, I'm going to jump to my one doctoral comment, which is that I loved his motivational video to Suda.
00:31:05
El Platypo
And
00:31:09
Jen
Wasn't that lovely?
00:31:09
Red D
Oh, yes.
00:31:11
Jen
And at first, well, at first I thought, oh, this is going to be a video explaining what he needs to do. Like the actual, you know, you need to, whatever, it's take out that second relay on whatever phaser gun.
00:31:18
Red D
Hmm.
00:31:23
Jen
But no, he had already passed on all the technical know-how and the video was purely to just, you know, give him some, motivation, tell Suda that he believed in him and I just kind of loved it from the doctor.
00:31:34
Red D
Yeah.
00:31:37
El Platypo
It was really amazing.
00:31:37
Red D
I have to say that he's noted it in the log so that Janeway and Tuvok will know like how great he was. Yeah.
00:31:45
Jen
Yeah, yeah, love the dog.
00:31:48
El Platypo
I mean,
00:31:48
Red D
It was great.
00:31:51
Jen
Over to you Jay.
00:31:53
El Platypo
i mean gosh, we're... um Yeah, I...
00:31:59
El Platypo
I'm awkwardly going to go in the opposite direction because I acknowledge everything that you've said but I was just thinking the way in which Seska actually interrogates the Doctor to find out what's going on, I'm almost more interested as to why he doesn't go directly to, yeah I've let the serial killer lose.
00:32:22
El Platypo
Good luck finding him as a way of destroying morale or coming out with the most unlikely sounding story for Seska and the interrogation.
00:32:24
Jen
you
00:32:31
El Platypo
Because let's be honest, Suter is absolutely terrifying. And if you'd known him before, you found out that he was loose at the conduits of the vessel.
00:32:43
El Platypo
That would be a hell of a morale blow.
00:32:47
Red D
who Interesting. think that's a very high level, high concept approach.
00:32:53
Jen
Interesting take.
00:32:55
Red D
very that's very high level ah concept approach
00:33:00
El Platypo
Well, i I just think that if he's not going to lead mob out of the first Sondrenes, then he might as well have gone for psychological warfare.
00:33:00
Red D
but
00:33:09
El Platypo
<unk> Like, Sousa would terrify the balls out of me if I was occupying a voyage.
00:33:14
Jen
I don't think it would scare Seska. I don't think she'd be.
00:33:17
El Platypo
No, but, you know, it would scare everyone else.
00:33:20
Jen
The Kazon, nah.
00:33:21
El Platypo
Yeah, of course it would. Look at him. The man's terrified.
00:33:24
Jen
I'm not scared of some well, it's not human, is he? loy Betazoid?
00:33:29
El Platypo
Sousa?
00:33:29
Red D
Bait is a way get.
00:33:30
Jen
One single Betazoid, you know, climbing around the pipes?
00:33:37
Jen
I don't know.
00:33:38
El Platypo
Hey, I mean, that's technically to them an alien climbing around the pipes. And there was an entire franchise made about that, a terror sci-fi franchise. So I think it's viable concept or at least conceit.
00:33:52
Red D
I feel like we have learnt a lot about you, Jamie. Now I know that psychological warfare.
00:33:56
El Platypo
Well, no, I just find serial killers terrifying. I don't think that that's that's the contentious, is it?
00:34:00
Red D
Yes. sir but Yes, I wouldn't want to be on a But, shame, we are throwing the term of serial killer around quite a lot, yeah, I'm like... a I guess he was.
00:34:10
El Platypo
Is that incorrect?
00:34:11
Jen
What is he, isn't he?
00:34:12
Red D
Yeah, he is, he was.
00:34:12
El Platypo
He has killed multiple people and pathological killer.
00:34:16
Jen
It's an interesting take this episode because you use the hero and you know, you really feel for him, you feel sorry for him, you really want him to succeed, you you know, you're really like siding with serial killer, which is an interesting one.
00:34:21
El Platypo
Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:29
Red D
Yes, that's always brilliant when they can do that.
00:34:30
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:34:31
Red D
When writers or storytellers can do it.
00:34:32
Jen
Hmm.
00:34:32
El Platypo
It's lovely. I feel the Doctor plays the scene where he manages to position Susha in a place where he, I'm not going to cheapen it by calling it, can be the hero, but he can contribute to the crew in a way that for once his dysfunctions can be valued.
Suda's Redemption Arc
00:34:53
El Platypo
I did find that quite uplifting actually, with the Doctor almost ennobling him with sentiments like together i'm have every confidence will prevail. Yeah.
00:35:12
Jen
It's an interesting story for that that oh one, especially at the start, you know, where the doctor suddenly realizes, oh, well, hang on, you're probably not going to help, are you?
00:35:16
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:35:20
Jen
Because this is an opportunity for you, you could escape.
00:35:20
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:35:23
Jen
Why would you want to help the crew?
00:35:26
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:35:26
Jen
But Suda does want help.
00:35:27
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:35:29
Jen
Curious.
00:35:29
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:35:29
Red D
Yeah, and then, I mean, yeah, I mean, I have got a point about that, but I also have a point about the doctors, I don't know which, if I should
00:35:38
Jen
Oh, we go go with you. all We're on the theme of Suda, right? You go, you're next, Suda.
00:35:41
Red D
Okay, I'll come back to the and the doctor.
00:35:41
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:35:45
Red D
What was I going to say about Oh, yes, that's the other doctor. But, I mean, yes, that's the main reason why i was looking forward to this episode is kind of his character arc and how he plays it and how someone who's, I mean, whether you believe or not someone can reform or there's such a thing as rehabilitation. In this story, this character is working very hard.
00:36:03
Red D
As we saw in the previous episode, he's not perfect when he doesn't react that well to Janeway just... putting some boundaries about on his request. But while I think the actor Brad Dureff or whatever, he just plays the sociopath and the kind of what did say, recovering sociopath so well, because yes, the doctor thinks he doesn't want to help because he's, he assumes he wants to escape, but actually he's hesitant to help because he's fought so hard to control his anger and his rage and his violent feelings.
00:36:12
El Platypo
um
00:36:26
El Platypo
um
00:36:33
El Platypo
and
00:36:34
Red D
And he's at this point where you can imagine one day being actually peaceful.
00:36:38
El Platypo
a
00:36:39
Red D
And now he's got to put that all aside. and it's not, even if he's not really tapping into his feelings, what he's going to do is going to undo that rehabilitation. Like, a well, I would imagine I'm not an expert.
00:36:47
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:36:47
Jen
Hmm.
00:36:49
Red D
And um the, when he comes back from, I mean, this is a very horrible term, but his first kill, ah the way he is so drained and destroyed and, uh,
00:37:04
Red D
Oh, he's just, I guess it's the acting, really, but, and maybe the story, the writing, but it's just really good. And you really feel for this guy. I mean, you want him to turn his life around and now you're like, oh my God, this is like the worst position he could be in.
00:37:16
Red D
Yeah.
00:37:16
El Platypo
Yeah, it's touching because he says, i was beginning to feel as though I could imagine a time I could be at peace with myself. And that's, yeah, that's quite brutal that he has to give that up, really.
00:37:25
Red D
yeah
00:37:30
Red D
And then the doctor being like, oh, you know, we I guess he's saying I can medicate you to help with these feelings. And I think he's like, no, I, you know, and he tries to tap into the meditation and the techniques that he's been practicing and stuff.
00:37:42
Red D
So, oh yeah, he really you really feel for him. oh And the acting is really good.
00:37:49
Jen
Yeah, that's a bit actually that made me think of someone overcoming an addiction but the way he says no no drugs I've got to be able to do it without through my own don't know CBT whatever he's learned um it just had like that kind of vibe I agree I think he does such a great job as an actor um I I do kind of want him to reform for his his own sake but I also don't because I think he's so good as the sort of psychopathic reforming psychopathic carrier character character ah character
00:37:56
El Platypo
um
00:38:21
Jen
um you know and oh yeah You know, I've got to say, I really think the costume do a great job here. Just because of the eyes.
00:38:28
Red D
oh Oh, yes.
00:38:29
Jen
i think his black eyes are excellent.
00:38:32
Red D
Yeah.
00:38:32
El Platypo
Wow, yeah.
00:38:34
Jen
They're really cool. They really suit the character. Anyway, um who's next? It's me, it's me.
00:38:40
Red D
Yeah.
Chakotay's Leadership and Communication
00:38:42
Jen
So, talked about that. um
00:38:47
Jen
I mean, this is moving on slightly from the the Doctor. pseudo kind of characters.
00:38:52
Red D
the
00:38:54
Jen
i So, you know, i i rarely, to be honest, like scenes with Chakotay. He's not like my favorite.
00:38:59
El Platypo
Oh, yeah.
00:39:00
Jen
um But this was one that I really enjoyed. So and just really enjoyed the fact that when he's trying to communicate with that tribe, and there's clearly a leader in the tribe, and then he sort of takes on the um the role of leader of his tribe, in quotation marks, when he's trying to say, Neelix,
00:39:11
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:39:21
Jen
And I just love the fact that they've got, you know, they've got the crew of the Voyager acting a bit mad and freaking out and getting all, you know, hot under the collar.
00:39:27
Red D
Yes.
00:39:30
Jen
And then they've got the actual, i don't know what to call them, the natives. um
00:39:37
Red D
ah I'm not sure I could have. I can look that up in the meantime, if it tells us online.
00:39:41
Jen
The native men. um And they've got a load of them acting a bit mad and jumping around and screaming. um
00:39:47
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:39:47
Jen
But the way the leaders behave They're very calm, they're very listening and not over excitable.
00:39:52
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:39:56
Jen
And it's really contrasted with the non-leaders.
00:39:58
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:40:02
Jen
And it just reminded me that, you know, that's you've got to Stay calm in a crisis.
00:40:07
Red D
Yes.
00:40:08
Jen
Keep calm, soothing tones, you know, and it sorted all out because they got away.
00:40:10
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:40:15
Red D
Well, you'll be happy to know that on Wikipedia for this episode, they also refer to them as the natives. So I guess we never find out what alien they are.
00:40:22
El Platypo
Well, they look, as you say, a little bit like hazelnut, you're like...
00:40:22
Red D
up
00:40:26
Red D
Proto-Kaissons.
00:40:27
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:40:28
Red D
And, um, I, I like what you said there because there was an element of, uh, Yes, they were, I guess, the more... Because they can't you couldn't understand them and they seemed violent or threatened by... you know the They seemed more primitive. I guess that's how they were played. or But then, as you say, the Voyager crew that was quite in front of them, they were also kind of... Without their technology, they were kind of... They almost came across at the same level.
00:40:54
Red D
ah but like the So it wasn't like, oh, they're so primitive and they're not.
00:40:54
El Platypo
Thank
00:40:54
Jen
Yeah.
00:40:58
Red D
like They were both kind of... the Voyager people were kind of losing it a bit as well. And all they had was their spear or their stick or something. And it made me think, I guess, the difference technology makes, but also ah that they were kind of the same.
00:41:12
Red D
They're both these kind of tribes on the on this planet and they are threatened by each other.
00:41:16
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:41:17
Red D
don't know.
00:41:19
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:41:19
Red D
They were kind of equal. It didn't seem patronizing, I guess, in a sense, because of the way they, yeah.
00:41:22
El Platypo
yeah
00:41:23
Jen
yeah
00:41:24
El Platypo
Well, no one had like a massive humanoid bone club from in front of the cave of Smaug to threaten the other with, which was a bit disappointing.
00:41:34
Jen
I think it's done to you, DJ.
00:41:37
El Platypo
Yeah, well, i i mean um i just wanted to go back to how much i really rather enjoyed the continual Seska is the only brain stuff throughout this whole episode.
00:41:50
El Platypo
Such points as did anyone actually find any bodies on the Star Trek Voyager shuttle that was destroyed, for instance, and other elements of that. that some That just made me smile a lot. and Maybe it was them giving a goodbye, but some it did sort of... Yeah.
00:42:10
El Platypo
I suppose was a useful device to pre-shadow once Eska's there the Kazon aren't really going to be ah thing anymore once she's gone but I don't know what do you reckon
00:42:20
Red D
um Yeah, because je I, Jenny, I don't but I do not remember that she died. mean, I don't think I remember that she died at all, never mind at the end of this specific episode. ah So it kind of surprised me, but then I thought, I guess I'm assuming, because don't, it's bringing an end to the Kazon story arc.
00:42:38
Red D
Like, preparing the way for your favorite adversaries.
00:42:38
El Platypo
hmm
00:42:41
El Platypo
There you go. There you go.
00:42:42
Jen
Yeah, yeah, i think it was. i couldn't quite remember. I thought she died, but I couldn't remember how. So i was bit wondering if that was the outcome.
00:42:54
Jen
Yeah. Red? Red next?
00:42:57
Red D
Yes. Well, following, this is my point is about Seska and the doctor. And I, I, we, you spoke about why didn't the doctor go with another plan earlier, Jamie, but I did love the battle of the wits basically.
00:43:08
Red D
Um, when she's trying to test him to see if he's lying, he's trying to lie to pretend he's not lying.
00:43:09
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:43:14
Red D
And, um,
00:43:16
El Platypo
He did seem to enjoy it didn't he?
00:43:18
Red D
he did. And, uh, but she also came across as quite almost warm.
00:43:22
El Platypo
Like, she likes him.
00:43:23
Red D
Yeah.
00:43:23
El Platypo
She hasn't liked him.
00:43:23
Red D
Like, yeah. um And I did, um just thought they were really good together, actually.
00:43:30
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:43:30
Red D
And I did love her line, I won't play games with a trick of light, which was, you know, when she was starting to see through his deceit and then eventually had to confess about, but I was like, just that was a very, thought that was a great line.
00:43:35
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:43:44
Red D
And loved watching them because, I mean, obviously now we won't ever see them again together and I'm not sure how much screen time they've had together before. So, but they were really good.
00:43:53
El Platypo
Thank
00:43:55
Jen
Yeah I mean vaguely related um I agree I did enjoy that um you know Doctor being very clever in his you pretending like he doesn't know how to deceive but he can he could learn if she wanted him to you know did enjoy that um however I did think
00:44:07
Red D
Yes.
00:44:13
Jen
uh, Seska was a little bit dumb and in this episode in certain points, you know, not not on the Kazon level, but I mean, for example, when the Doctor supposedly was deciding to tell them the truth and explained that he had killed one of the Kazon, surely she would know that he can't do harm and he's not going to be able to kill.
00:44:31
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:44:32
Red D
Ah, because of it is Doctor's Earth.
00:44:33
El Platypo
I'm sure in the state.
00:44:35
Jen
Yeah.
00:44:35
Red D
But he couldn't self-defense, Colony.
00:44:38
Jen
Yeah, but he says that, well, the way he's, he announces it it doesn't seem like he's saying he's killed in self-defense maybe but maybe that's the loophole maybe he doesn't specifically say it wasn't self-defense
00:44:49
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:44:49
Red D
be fair, he could just deactivate himself, so think you're right.
00:44:52
El Platypo
Yeah. yeah The other element of it is slightly like, surely the thing she does in response to that situation be one of the first things you do when you get on board of deactivating the ability of any Federation personnel to use the computer.
00:45:07
Jen
yeah i wondered that as well i thought I feel like she's taking unnecessary risks here, but I guess he's got medical training and she's got baby. Maybe she, you know.
00:45:15
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:45:16
Red D
Oh, yeah, she wanted doctor, that's for sure.
00:45:18
Jen
But she could just delete.
00:45:19
Red D
I don't know why- no, go ahead.
00:45:20
Jen
God.
00:45:23
Jen
Well, i was just thinking she could, put probably she could delete parts of his program, but maybe she's not that technical. That's more of Bellana thing, isn't it? Maybe that would risk losing him and he's too valuable of medical assets to lose.
00:45:34
Jen
don't know. Anywho.
00:45:35
Red D
Well, I just had this like little flash, but her- her- yeah, she is smarter than the Kazon. Not necessarily that- ah she is smart, I'm not saying she's not smart, but She kind of reminds me of like being a product manager when you like, you have to double check everything that's actually been done to the correct standard, in which is like, did you check how many people on that shuttle that got blown up?
00:45:55
Red D
Did you check that there's any generation of people left on them?
00:45:56
Jen
Oh, she must be so tired, Red. tired.
00:45:59
Red D
She must be so tired because these kids are cannot do their job.
00:46:01
Jen
It's so exhausting. Do you know I have a whole new respect for Sessica after you've said that because currently I'm in one of these situations where there's a team and they're lovely, but everything has to be checked.
00:46:06
El Platypo
yes
00:46:14
Jen
All roles in my team has to be checked.
00:46:14
Red D
Yes.
00:46:17
Jen
The writing, the editing,
00:46:17
Red D
Wow.
00:46:20
Jen
just like client service, but like all of it, like is it's very tiring. yeah It's the difference between...
00:46:27
Red D
And you're like, no, I know they didn't. I better ask.
00:46:29
Jen
Yeah, gotta check.
00:46:29
Red D
And then you feel like the baddie because you have to ask or you...
00:46:32
Jen
You have to say, it's not ready yet, it's a problem. so yeah Yeah, it's exhausting.
00:46:42
Jen
But you know, I have finished. That was all my points. So Jamie, Do you have any
00:46:50
El Platypo
Let me see, let me see. So i ahve covered i was going to talk about Star Trek Smaug, we've sort of done that. I'm going to talk about telling the invaders the Crucible Killers loose to sabotage morale.
00:47:09
El Platypo
I would like to finish on fact that I really loved as a finishing touch Tuvok's Vulcan Prayer for
Suda's Sacrifice and Redemption Themes
00:47:17
El Platypo
Susia.
00:47:17
Jen
more? Hmm.
00:47:18
El Platypo
And I thought for all that I always try and find the lighthearted or make people a little bit silly, i found that was a wonderful touch of sincerity in it.
00:47:31
Jen
Yeah, I love
00:47:32
Red D
It was nice. And I guess it was, oh i think, mirroring, alluding to He was like, I hope you find the peace you didn't find. And when Suda said, i can imagine being at peace one day, um that was a bit of foreshadowing, but not necessarily.
00:47:44
El Platypo
yeah and
00:47:49
El Platypo
I'm also quite glad it wasn't another excuse for Chakotay to find something else that he couldn't do.
00:47:56
Red D
ah You mean pray?
00:47:58
El Platypo
yeah
00:47:58
Red D
No, we know he can do that and connect with his dad and spiritual guide.
00:48:04
Jen
spirit animal okay
00:48:05
Red D
Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:09
Red D
That was a nice moment and a nice acknowledgement of this his character, his role.
00:48:15
Jen
yeah i was always sad that that was the end of the pseudo story there we are so are we on to themes though themes themes well i think there's two hilarious themes that have been
00:48:16
El Platypo
And.
00:48:25
Red D
Yeah.
00:48:26
El Platypo
and
00:48:30
Jen
noted down. I when I was trying to think of themes, I felt like I was probably missing all the really obvious themes. And I chose ah just really niche one. But my brain was really very slow today. So um I went for communication.
00:48:46
Jen
I was thinking of the tribes, you know, the natives trying to communicate and vice versa.
00:48:48
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:48:48
Red D
A
00:48:49
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:48:51
Jen
And they don't speak the same language, but they learn to communicate through tone of voice you know, behavior and movement and actions I guess Chakotay saving the um one of the daughters I guess of one of the tribes people and then you know um them as a result showing them to safety when the volcano is going off and saying all this I feel like wow there's a lot happened in this episode a lot oh yeah anyway so that's what I put communication and I can see someone else put something
00:49:01
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:49:11
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:49:14
Red D
and a lot happened. and lot happened.
00:49:16
El Platypo
geology, there was, you know,
00:49:26
El Platypo
Yeah, I put recycling.
00:49:26
Red D
it
00:49:29
El Platypo
And I would like to put my hands up and say that I think that Neelix was in the pay of an oil company or someone who doesn't like recycling because they used the entire of the first half of the setup with Hogan to discredit recycling as a thing, which I'm against.
00:49:29
Jen
I don't get it.
00:49:44
El Platypo
that's
00:49:45
Red D
You mean like if you recycle you'll get killed? that what the message was?
00:49:48
El Platypo
No, recycling, recycling. But yes.
00:49:51
Jen
Oh, you're talking about when they're gonna use his clothes for a...
00:49:52
El Platypo
Don't recycle. Bones. Bones.
00:49:55
Red D
i
00:49:56
El Platypo
Bones, when they were going to use the bones for weapons and tools and things, and they were like, do that, you'll get eaten.
00:49:57
Red D
Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:02
Jen
Yeah, but also, yeah, I think once after he died, they said they were going to use his clothes to extract water or something, or something a bit grim.
00:50:02
Red D
But they did have... Yeah, go ahead, Jenny.
00:50:13
El Platypo
pretty grim.
00:50:14
Jen
Yeah. Any themes read?
00:50:15
Red D
what Well, yes, it only came to me now, and it also starts with R, but redemption, I guess, is a theme.
00:50:22
Jen
Oh, yeah.
00:50:23
Red D
Back to the, you know, the favorite character, I guess, for me and...
00:50:26
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:50:27
Red D
a suitor, and he was able to redeem himself and actually sacrificed his life to save the crew.
00:50:33
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:50:35
Red D
And
00:50:39
Red D
I don't know why I didn't think of that earlier, yet but it came to me now.
00:50:42
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:50:42
Jen
That's a really good one.
00:50:42
Red D
Like, it is possible to turn your life around. It's unlikely you'll have to throw everything away in a situation like this. But ah he learned, I guess, to put others first.
00:50:56
Jen
Yep, a nice one.
00:50:59
El Platypo
Yep.
00:50:59
Jen
So onto the final star player. Oh, I feel like this is a really tricky one.
00:51:03
El Platypo
I've
00:51:04
Jen
I definitely can't go first guys.
00:51:06
El Platypo
ah've got an easy one.
00:51:08
Red D
Go for it.
00:51:08
Jen
Oh, great.
00:51:09
El Platypo
The Theoron generator,
00:51:13
El Platypo
which results in the mask suitors presence.
00:51:14
Red D
Would you like to explain?
00:51:16
Red D
Yes.
00:51:20
Jen
Wow, you've chosen so many characters for the inanimate object.
00:51:20
Red D
Good one, good one.
00:51:26
Jen
Love it.
00:51:27
El Platypo
I just feel that my choice of inanimate objects reflects the wooden or no character of the acting.
00:51:37
Jen
What about you, you got one yet?
00:51:37
Red D
of the box. ah
00:51:39
El Platypo
Of the acting? Not really. I just kind of quite like giving it to inanimate objects.
00:51:48
Red D
do have one. I think, ah believe it or not, it's not going to be what i you think I'm going to say. And oh my God.
00:51:53
El Platypo
It's going to be smog. Go on, it'll be smog.
00:51:56
Red D
Sorry, i have to unlock my phone every time I you know try to look at my notes. And it's going to be 28 degrees tomorrow, apparently.
00:52:03
Jen
what
00:52:03
Red D
and
00:52:03
Red D
Very exciting. um
00:52:03
El Platypo
what nice
00:52:06
Jen
we have any listeners in the US they're going to be like, what, why, why isn't it high?
00:52:07
Red D
I think
00:52:09
El Platypo
this is like a big deal here
00:52:12
Red D
Stay indoors, close your curtains, a heat wave. um I think I'm going to give it to Chakotay, even though I've gone on and on about Suda. But kind of back to your community point, and i like near the beginning when they've discovered that they're this planet with this other set of beings, I guess, ah you know, Tuvok has very much got the defensive position or or the security position, which is like,
00:52:38
Red D
they're going to attack us and try to kill us. That's it. That's all they're going to try to Whereas Takote is already a bit more open-minded. And then obviously, because he's a bit more open-minded, he's the one that's able to make that connection with the tribe in the various moments and in the end by rescuing that tribe member.
00:52:55
Red D
And that saves little baby Wildman.
00:52:56
El Platypo
Saves the day!
00:52:57
Jen
Yeah.
00:52:58
Red D
And she is a great character later on. So, yeah.
00:53:01
El Platypo
Is she...? Does she join the crew or something?
00:53:04
Red D
Well, she's yeah she is on board that trip.
00:53:05
Jen
She's, she's, yeah, she's more the the most member, real member of Voyager.
00:53:05
Red D
She doesn't.
00:53:10
Jen
She was born on Voyager and then she grows up on Voyager.
00:53:13
El Platypo
Aww.
00:53:13
Red D
and She gets those periodically, which is, she's great.
00:53:14
El Platypo
Aww.
00:53:17
Jen
Yeah.
00:53:17
Red D
Yeah.
00:53:17
El Platypo
Aww.
00:53:18
Jen
and
00:53:18
Red D
So I'll give it to Chakotay.
00:53:20
Jen
Oh, that's a great choice, actually.
00:53:20
El Platypo
Awesome.
00:53:22
Jen
You've also reminded me of Tuvok's line, which is harsh and hilarious when Togotes, they've sort of reversed roles of it.
00:53:27
Red D
Yeah.
00:53:29
Jen
Togotes talking about how, you know, we can be understanding and get to know them and be friends. And Tuvok's saying something like really, really, you know, no, no, it's it's something along the lines of, you may see nobility in a savage, but they just want to kill you.
00:53:39
El Platypo
We must rearm.
00:53:46
Red D
So it was pretty harsh.
00:53:46
Jen
It's...
00:53:48
Red D
I think reflecting some thinking or discussions in the nineties.
00:53:51
El Platypo
I think that reflects some deep-sensitive feelings on T-Rex's part.
00:53:51
Jen
yeah oh you know what he reminds me of oh my goodness do you remember the BBC uh production of Pride and Prejudice and they're at the first ball they attend and Bingley is saying to Darcy come come dance there's some pretty girls here do do dance and he's and then someone's talking about dancing being part of a refined society every refined society and he responds and every unrefined society
00:54:00
Red D
oh
00:54:13
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:54:18
Jen
Every savage can dance.
00:54:20
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:54:23
Red D
Is that the the miniseries, not the film? I think I need to rewatch that.
00:54:26
Jen
Oh yeah, for sure.
00:54:26
El Platypo
Yeah, yeah, The original big miniseries.
00:54:27
Jen
For sure the miniseries.
00:54:27
Red D
Yeah.
00:54:28
Jen
i I'm really not a fan of the film. Not my cup of tea at all.
00:54:31
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:54:32
Red D
I do love it. I mean, I remember loving the miniseries, but I haven't watched it in a long time.
00:54:35
Jen
Oh man, you have to rewatch it. It's so amazing.
00:54:38
Red D
Yeah.
00:54:38
Jen
rewatched it so many times. um Right, so then that's good. That leaves me free to choose Zuda.
00:54:44
Red D
Yay!
00:54:45
Jen
Yay. It's the last time I can choose him.
00:54:47
El Platypo
that that see you could
00:54:50
Jen
Yeah, so, you know, it has to be him this time around. For all the reasons we've discussed.
00:54:55
El Platypo
ah agreed
00:54:55
Red D
Very good. And if you want to see more of him, I'm sure he's in many things, but he was an episode of Murder, She Wrote, Psych, Voyager, and of course, The Lord of the Rings.
00:55:06
Red D
So...
00:55:07
El Platypo
I ask, is he the serial killer in all of them?
00:55:07
Jen
Oh my gosh!
00:55:09
Red D
We've discussed this. we've But...
00:55:10
Jen
I've forgotten, I've forgotten.
00:55:10
Red D
to
00:55:11
Jen
Yeah, I know you've already told me. Who is he again?
00:55:14
Red D
ah The... Oh. Wormtongue? Is that his name?
00:55:18
Jen
Oh!
00:55:18
Red D
I don't
00:55:18
El Platypo
Oh my gosh.
00:55:19
Jen
I'm so good as well, Oh we've definitely had this conversation, haven't we?
00:55:22
Red D
know.
00:55:23
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:55:25
Jen
He's, oh, he's very good.
00:55:27
El Platypo
Is he the murderer in Murder, She Wrote?
00:55:27
Jen
Okay.
00:55:29
Red D
Is he a murderer? He is I don't think murderer, but he's part of like this kind of weird religious cult or something that's moving through this town.
00:55:38
El Platypo
Yeah, good enough.
00:55:39
Red D
He's definitely a suspect. Yeah.
00:55:40
El Platypo
Good enough.
00:55:42
Red D
Oh, no, no. There's like some kind of... Someone pretend like thinks this witch has come back and there's a witch ghost. Yes. That kind of thing.
00:55:50
Jen
That sounds very Souter-ish.
00:55:50
El Platypo
Good enough.
00:55:52
Red D
Okay. Is it time to play out our outgoing jingle? Which...
00:55:55
Jen
It is!
00:55:55
El Platypo
i mean, I think that's up to the moderator.
00:55:56
Jen
Jingle
00:55:58
Red D
Well, that's why I'm asking.
00:56:00
Jen
time! Jingle time, jingle time. You made me turn it. was about to say, jingle time!
00:56:04
Red D
Okay, great.
00:56:08
Red D
That's a slower jiggle.
00:56:09
Jen
We need to work on our timings.
00:56:09
El Platypo
but
00:56:15
Red D
Well, you know, I still like our podcast not the most, but we have no ads. We don't have those long, boring introductions and long, boring outros.
00:56:22
El Platypo
And we have no money.
00:56:25
Red D
But yeah, we can do whatever we want.
00:56:28
Jen
And look, we managed to keep it under an hour for once, guys.
00:56:31
El Platypo
but
00:56:32
Red D
Very good moderating Jenny.
00:56:33
Jen
know and
00:56:35
Red D
and Oh, let me see quickly. What's the next episode? Oh, I see these checklists don't make any sense, but come back for flashback, everybody. Thank you.
00:56:45
El Platypo
Rude up.