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We watch "Tuvix" (S2 Ep.24)
10 Plays6 days ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Tuvix”, in which two of our favourite characters are combined in a very unusual transporter accident, which leaves a major conundrum for the crew.
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Theme music by Alain D
Recommended
Transcript
Opening Jokes and Gestures
00:00:03
El Platypo
Oh god, I'm trump dancing.
00:00:07
Red D
You do look a bit like Trump, though.
00:00:09
Jen
Oh dear.
00:00:09
Red D
I mean the moves.
00:00:10
Red D
The moves!
00:00:10
El Platypo
There's one for you, and the other one's still for you.
00:00:14
Red D
I have seen him do it, but I don't know how.
00:00:14
El Platypo
yeah so no one's wondering. i was just flipping red the bird, and then another one. she's gone She's started aggressively, this
Chaos and Control
00:00:22
El Platypo
one. So, you know, we're just going let the trunks hit the tunes.
00:00:26
El Platypo
And then, oh my goodness, is she doing that one minute summary? doing it with enthusiasm until I'm happy. Or else.
00:00:32
Red D
Wait, what?
00:00:33
El Platypo
Oh yeah.
00:00:36
Red D
um As the, I guess, moderator,
00:00:38
El Platypo
Excuse me, I'm moderating. Silence!
00:00:41
Jen
Yeah. yes
00:00:42
El Platypo
Silence! No, not the music, you. What's the music going? God. Honestly, it's hard work. I'm glad I'm here to see what I have to put up with here.
00:00:54
El Platypo
Um...
Introducing Star Trek Voyager Discussion
00:00:55
El Platypo
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of Janeway's Children. ah Today we are talking about Season 2, Episode 24, Voyager.
00:01:08
El Platypo
Yes it is, Star Trek Voyager.
00:01:11
Red D
Bye.
00:01:11
El Platypo
tuvi Now, I gather, unusually, that this is one I enjoyed more and certain of my co-panelists enjoyed less, which I'm interested to delve into, especially given the inverse reactions from the last episode that we reviewed. But, before we get started, i am Jamie,
00:01:31
El Platypo
I have Red, have Jenny with me. ah Red, as threatened during the shambles that was the theme music, can you give us a one-minute summary of this episode as you want to do role reversal and fall asleep off screen the moment you're not the centre of attention the way that I normally do it?
00:01:47
Red D
while you diagnose someone with a personality disorder one time and they hold it against you forever.
00:01:51
Jen
Bye.
00:01:52
El Platypo
One time, record it, send it out to our potentially millions of viewers in California, and I've never been prouder of you for it, but now I'm taking my revenge.
Summary and Moral Dilemma of Tuvix
00:02:03
El Platypo
It's cold, it's long, and it's going to keep going.
00:02:07
Red D
I've never done a one minute summary before and I don't think it's gonna be good.
00:02:11
El Platypo
I'm going to help by being relaxing and cool.
00:02:15
Red D
Okay.
00:02:16
El Platypo
Don't pedigree, don't pedigree, don't pedigree, don't pedigree.
00:02:16
Red D
In this episode,
00:02:19
El Platypo
Carry on, as you were.
00:02:20
Red D
and in this episode ah i was say Tuvok and Neelix are on a planet collecting plants, being ah very Tuvok and Neelix-y, which is quite funny.
00:02:32
Red D
And then they are beamed back to the ship, but instead of being beamed back separately, they are transformed into one new being called Tuvix. And then on this episode, the the Doctor has to figure out a way to separate them.
00:02:44
Red D
But once he's figured out the way, been quite a long time and so he encounters some unexpected hurdles in ah returning Neelix and Tubbock Voyager.
00:02:55
El Platypo
It's always difficult when it's been quite a long time, Red.
00:02:58
Red D
Slash never! And also I kept wanting to call Tubbock, Tuvex, it was very confusing.
00:02:59
Jen
Thank you.
00:03:06
El Platypo
it's It's okay. It's okay. that There's nothing wrong with the first one being a little bit on the rough side. um Really, really well done.
00:03:13
Red D
um
00:03:14
El Platypo
i was hugely impressed by that. And it was enjoyable to see what the other side of the screen is when I'm frantically mugging along, trying to not only remember what on earth happened on an episode that I watched no more than 40 minutes ago, typically, but also trying to remember literally the names of the people that I've been podcasting about for...
Celebration and Star Trek Memorabilia
00:03:34
El Platypo
How long have we been podcasting for?
00:03:36
El Platypo
You're right.
00:03:36
Red D
This is our 40th episode, so good question.
00:03:39
Jen
Oh, congrats.
00:03:39
El Platypo
You're right. um Yeah, so I still forget the characters' names. Don't worry about the fact you forgot Twix, I mean Tuvix's name. So, what did you think of it? Initial reactions. hit me, people. Keep it going.
00:03:52
El Platypo
Bring the energy. Bring the energy. Well, that was an energetic.
00:03:55
Jen
That's a lot of pressure when you say bring the energy.
00:03:57
El Platypo
Love that. Here I am, opening up to the American markets, hit them where they love it, and, wow.
00:03:58
Red D
Well, can I, can I...
00:04:04
Red D
Before we dive in,
00:04:04
El Platypo
It's a game.
00:04:06
Red D
into our initial reactions. I do have a cool thing to show you guys.
00:04:09
El Platypo
Ooh.
00:04:09
Jen
ah
00:04:09
El Platypo
Ooh.
00:04:10
Red D
But this is a gift that I got when I went to visit my dear friend Hannah in Berlin. And she brought this Spock soap back from San Francisco.
00:04:16
El Platypo
Oh.
00:04:19
Jen
Oh, it's beautiful.
00:04:19
Red D
The
00:04:20
El Platypo
Nice. I thought it said the local choice, but actually it says the logical choice.
00:04:25
Red D
logical choice to stay clean, I guess.
00:04:26
El Platypo
I like that. I like that.
00:04:28
Red D
So I know it's not a Voyager character, but I had to mention it.
00:04:29
Jen
would
00:04:33
Jen
What is the soap like?
00:04:35
El Platypo
And which version of Spock it?
00:04:35
Red D
It smells minty. Oh, it's...
00:04:37
El Platypo
Which version of Spock is it?
00:04:37
Jen
Interesting.
00:04:38
El Platypo
Is it Leonard Nimoy?
00:04:40
Red D
yeah.
00:04:42
El Platypo
Always the best.
00:04:42
Red D
Oh, it is Vulcan mint scented, as it says on the packaging.
00:04:46
Jen
Vulcanbind, okay.
00:04:48
Red D
yeah
00:04:48
El Platypo
I mean, it do we know for a fact that that's still a type of flora as opposed to fauna? Vulcan myth is something vastly faunae-like, or more faunae-like, especially given that the whole premise of this episode appears to be a plant mates with folk during teleportation.
00:04:54
Red D
and
00:05:11
Red D
Yes, good point.
00:05:13
El Platypo
I know, it's a dread thing. ah But segwaying on almost seamlessly from Spock's Soap, which I absolutely love and is amazing. I love the fact that it's Leonard Nimoy even more.
00:05:25
El Platypo
And love the fact that it just feels like a very Berlin thing to do find. What was your guys' take on
Episode Discomfort and Philosophical Discussion
00:05:31
El Platypo
this episode? I mean, i was really... When you mentioned that it was this one, you both seemed to know it fairly well, but both seemed sort of roll your eyes about the fact that we were going to be talking about this one.
00:05:45
El Platypo
And I sort of went in feeling a little bit worried from that perspective, oh, this was going to be a bit of a dud in a not dissimilar way to the one last week, which was effectively filmed as though it was one of the psychedelic episodes of The Prisoner.
00:05:59
El Platypo
um But what was your take on this one? How did you find it As bad as you remember, second time round.
00:06:07
Jen
Well, should I go first, Red?
00:06:08
Red D
Yeah, go for
00:06:10
Jen
Yeah, well, um I wouldn't say I brought my eyes at it.
00:06:13
Red D
it.
00:06:13
Jen
It's just, it is very memorable, like, for sure, whenever, you know, some of them you forget, like, which, what's going to happen in the episode, and someone will give you a title to the episode, and you think, what on earth was that one about? I have no idea, but you always remember this one when you hear it's two weeks.
00:06:28
Jen
um I actually weirdly think it's, like, a good episode in terms of, like, drama and the philosophical debate going on. um But, and I did if this is like intentional and maybe this is a reason that in fact it's good.
00:06:44
Jen
I just don't enjoy it. i think it's because it's like quite an uncomfortable subject. And also kind of find the new character bit creepy, which I don't know if that is how he was intending to play it.
00:06:58
Jen
And maybe that's whole part of the whole, you know, awkwardness of the situation and the challenge. But, um, Like, I think it's actually a good episode, but I don't like it very much. So I don't know.
00:07:10
Jen
What do you think, Red?
00:07:12
Red D
um Yes, I also made some sounds a bit like when we were like, oh, we're doing two books, but it was more just because i thought... um I assumed it would be a bit controversial like the salabanders are controversial, but when I was reading on Wikipedia, it was a pretty well-received episode ah for all the reasons that we you know you mentioned, like the questions that it raises and the kind of moral conundrum that they have to resolve.
00:07:37
Red D
um And I...
00:07:37
Jen
Hmm.
00:07:37
El Platypo
Wait, why is the Paramander controversial?
00:07:41
Red D
do You know the Salamander.
00:07:43
El Platypo
i have I find nothing controversial in there. I just want to hear your opinion on why they're
00:07:47
Red D
Oh no, I love it. Some people hate it for some reason, but I love it. The idea of little Tom and salamanders and space somewhere for creating.
00:07:58
Red D
Anyway. um But yes, so I found it interesting that this ah and episode isn't really considered controversial, but in the reading that I did on Wikipedia, the initial pitch was that it was actually going to be more like a sitcom.
00:08:11
Red D
So that they were going mix these two characters together and I guess be, what is the term now? But you know, when there's like lots of physical comedy and like kind of just a bit silly. um And then somehow it kind of got turned into this kind of more serious thematic episode.
00:08:26
Red D
um which I thought was good. But on the Wikipedia website, I do have to, I was like, I guess this is how they came up with the name Tuvex, because it was kind of got, had a couple of titles, like one title was one, and another title was Symbiogenesis, which I was like, well, that doesn't really roll the tongue.
00:08:43
Red D
But um when they were kind of still in the sitcom mindset, I mean, they wrote a theme song for it and I have the lyrics here. So, I mean, it's just one line.
00:08:51
Jen
Oh wow.
00:08:53
Red D
And I guess they like pitch was, it's Tuvok, it's Neelix, it's two guys in a fix, it's two Vicks. So I don't know if that's how they came up with the name, two Vicks.
00:08:58
Jen
Oh my gosh. Oh wow.
00:09:02
Jen
oh well
00:09:03
Red D
I'm assuming.
00:09:04
El Platypo
Early 90s, I love youe
00:09:06
Red D
Yeah, so that was, think it'll lighten up very different space and I do enjoy it, but I 100% agree In fact, Amy, I thought you were going to say that Tuvix was a bit creepy.
00:09:18
Red D
And...
00:09:19
El Platypo
ah but Believe me, I've i've got plenty on.
00:09:22
Red D
Okay, so we'll get to it.
00:09:22
El Platypo
This is about your reactions, though, guys.
00:09:22
Jen
Hmm.
00:09:23
Red D
And...
00:09:25
El Platypo
This is how I do it.
00:09:26
Red D
And...
00:09:27
El Platypo
I bring it down to myself.
00:09:27
Red D
It's just... yeah its This is a very big-time leap that i want to make now. But I think the way we interpret the character now maybe is a little bit different to like 20 years ago. But...
Debating Tuvix's Nature and Moral Questions
00:09:38
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:09:38
Red D
um He just came off a bit too self-centered and not thinking about like the people he had kind of displaced, I guess.
00:09:44
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:09:47
Red D
So i don't know if that was intentional, maybe to make us like emotionally at least be kind of blackmailed into being like, yes, Jane, we pushed the button or something.
00:09:48
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:09:57
Jen
and
00:09:58
Red D
ah But yeah, we'll probably get into all that. But I do agree with you, Jane, but I also do really like the episode. And we'll get into that.
00:10:08
El Platypo
That makes sense. Yeah. And Jan, yourself?
00:10:12
Jen
Oh, I gave mine.
00:10:14
El Platypo
Sure. No, I mean, was, I was.
00:10:16
Jen
Were you listening?
00:10:17
El Platypo
Red had given much, thought you were going to sort of segue off.
00:10:23
El Platypo
red red had given us so much i thought you were going to sort of say well
00:10:25
Red D
Yeah, sorry, I realised I was like talking for week. I was like, wait, I need to save this for the podcast. like
00:10:29
El Platypo
one No one needs to apologise for talking too much, especially not when I'm moderating a because I embrace it, and B, honestly, I'm finding myself so socially anxious about long silences.
00:10:40
El Platypo
um So with that in mind, shall we dive into the various things that folk enjoyed about this one? Because I actually, she as I went through it, found that I had so many and so many moments that made me smile.
00:10:55
El Platypo
um So you go for it. Go for it. Jenny, you first, if you want to. ready first.
00:10:59
Jen
Yeah, well, I...
00:11:00
El Platypo
Choose my sister. Choose my sister.
00:11:01
Jen
but I...
00:11:01
El Platypo
and
00:11:02
Jen
I... did we get your initial reaction, Jamie? I feel like we didn't.
00:11:05
Red D
Oh yeah, a good point.
00:11:05
Jen
What did you think?
00:11:06
El Platypo
I mean, I just gave it, weren't you, Liss? No. and think um No, so really liked it. I thought there were moments where actually the Tuvix character was played with a startling amount of subtlety and touch.
00:11:25
El Platypo
And I mean that in the metaphorical sense, to be able to
00:11:31
El Platypo
realistically impose the impression of the two characters coexisting. i mean There would be moments where you just saw flash of Neelix's cunning slash self-interest coming out and occasionally a moment or a nuance or some body language from a character and then a flash of contrasting Tuvok's intellectual acumen and conviction in his intellect.
00:12:02
El Platypo
um And I thought the actor actually portrayed that with astounding subtlety and really, really carried it.
00:12:08
Red D
Mm-hmm.
00:12:11
El Platypo
So i I enjoyed it from that perspective. And there were so many moments that did. I know it wasn't supposed to be a sitcom, but it really did, really did make me laugh. Yeah, that was my reaction.
00:12:24
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:12:24
Jen
Interesting.
00:12:26
El Platypo
let's let's talk about what bits stood out for you, good folk. Encore unvoir, Janie?
00:12:32
Jen
Yep. Well, I don't think I've ever noticed this before when I've watched it, but um there's that whole speech that Tuvix gives to Janeway when he's trying to convince her to let him live.
00:12:43
El Platypo
Mmm.
00:12:43
Jen
um And it's all very, you know, I'm flesh and blood. I'm a real person. And it never occurred to me before. It really reminds me of um The Merchant of Venice, the speech from Shylock when he's, you know, prick me, i do do I not bleed? um And I don't know if that was intentional.
00:13:03
Jen
I feel like it was. It was when you when it registered, it felt very much like that sort soliloquy. And there was something about the way he delivered it as well, which kind of and it sounded Shakespearean and in the, what's the word, like sort of,
00:13:21
Jen
not dialect, but um
00:13:23
El Platypo
the tone and possibly the meter?
00:13:24
Red D
but therere rhythm maybe oh
00:13:25
Jen
accent, I guess, maybe, or something.
00:13:27
Red D
oh
00:13:28
Jen
I don't know. Anyway, um yeah, and I didn't know whether anyone else would pick that up or if that was just something I had totally imagined. What do you think?
00:13:38
El Platypo
Oh no, I think I agree that it was there and it was deliberate. I was trying to cast a deliberate echo to that um because part of it was I think strongly asking the question who has the right of life and this weird, peculiar, bizarre situation.
00:13:55
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:13:57
El Platypo
And making the point this individual was sentient and alive, and of the sort of higher life form that within the Star Trek canon has the rights of life seemed ah very important point to me. But what did you think, Red?
00:14:13
Red D
Yeah, no, I'm sure, I'm 100% sure it was intentional. I didn't pick that up because, I mean, I do know of that speech. I don't think I've actually seen mention of Venice or read it.
00:14:23
Red D
But um what I know about TV writers and writers, I mean, yes, that makes a lot of sense.
00:14:28
El Platypo
Thank you.
00:14:31
Red D
So I'm glad you pointed that out because I didn't pick it up.
00:14:35
Jen
Well I wondered then if that was the case whether there was some kind of parallel we were meant to be drawing and i was the only thing I could think of was like
Crew Reactions and Starfleet Values
00:14:44
Jen
that stood out for me was that Shylock is supposed to be this really dislikeable character um and he's like extracting a pound of flesh and you know he's a money lender and all these things and so then I wondered is that what they're going for here with two Vicks is they're trying to deliberately make him unlikable um
00:15:04
El Platypo
Well, it's challenge because the the line that you give, Shakespeare was quite unusual in his time for his sympathetic portrayal of those, of other faiths and other races.
00:15:04
Red D
Yeah. yeah
00:15:19
El Platypo
Yes, in, for instance, Othello, in which he portrays Othello as as much practice upon um as you know, practicer of evil, but also In The Merchant of Venice, my understanding is that, having studied that Sherlock is...
00:15:37
El Platypo
is penned with a degree of sympathy throughout the play, showing the abuse that he's subjected to that imbues the rage to act in the way that he does. And the line that you allude to is sort of given during the early stages of the play where Shakespeare is painting the picture of the abuse he faces and why he feels it so wrong.
00:15:58
El Platypo
And he's effectively saying, I am a person. i you know, everything about me, if you prick me, do I not bleed? um If you cut me, do I not weep? Being part of that colour to make it a more nuanced picture than just this evil ogre who just goes around carving pounds of flesh off people or indeed betting for them if that makes sense so I think sorry go for it
00:16:20
Jen
me Yeah no you're absolutely right and in fact it makes me think that actually maybe well in The Merchant of Venice because they sort of there is that um like element of there's no one who's just a clear baddie and they're evil you know I just wonder if that's what they're trying to do here with this episode as well because
00:16:36
El Platypo
hmm
00:16:40
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:16:46
El Platypo
Yeah. Nobody's
00:16:46
Jen
it's just everyone. Maybe that's why I don't like it so much as well, because it's sort of everyone, um you know, you've got Janeway basically making a decision where she's like sort of executing someone.
00:16:49
Red D
Then
00:16:51
El Platypo
good.
00:16:53
Red D
but a
00:16:56
Jen
So that's like a ah very un-Janeway situation. And then you've got a character who you want to be the baddie because he's stopping, you know, two of your favorite characters or or two, you know, key characters existing.
00:17:08
El Platypo
Yep.
00:17:09
Jen
But in fact, he's making some very good points for like why he should be allowed to exist. And then you've got other various characters, you know, you've got the Doctor who's disagreeing, you know, isn't able to help Janeway, you know, for very valid reasons, but that pits him against her. And then, like, there's just a lot of, like, there's no clear who's a goodie, who's a baddie.
00:17:31
Jen
And maybe that's what they were going for, similar to Merchant of Venice, I don't know.
00:17:36
El Platypo
There is to me no sort goody-baddy side in it, because...
00:17:43
El Platypo
Tuvix isn't created through Malix and then exists and becomes accustomed to existence. Him coming second doesn't make him any less or more at fault than Tuvok Neelix, which stepping in the transporter. is They're all the victims of circumstance, and i think the captain draws a line, but probably it's positioned to sort of suggest that there is no clear moral line or place for it to be drawn and it's just a matter of choice that she happens to choose for Tuvok and Neelix.
00:18:21
El Platypo
I don't think there's a comment on whether it's the right thing to have done beyond the emotional reaction of everyone when they have their friends restored to them, but yeah.
00:18:26
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:18:33
Red D
Yeah, they might have been going for ah more parallels, but I think I, that you pointed it out, um I think it was just to, my interpretation would be, I know the speech and I assume the speech is persuasive because it seems like quite a persuasive, maybe it doesn't work in the the Shakespearean, ah um but it kind of taps into that emotion that we already have because of that ah reference, right?
00:18:56
Red D
And so it maybe it just heightens the power of his plea, his impassioned plea.
00:19:02
El Platypo
Yeah, I agree. i think that's a really insightful point to pick on, Jenny. Would you mind if I moved on to my first one? um And I'll...
00:19:15
Jen
I mean, you're the moderator, you gotta go for it.
00:19:16
Red D
you
00:19:18
El Platypo
Yeah, but I'm trying to do it a bit more respectfully than I normally do Shut up, I'm bored.
00:19:18
Jen
I mean...
00:19:22
El Platypo
We've got no filibuster.
00:19:23
Jen
Oh no, I like that, that version.
00:19:25
El Platypo
Shut up.
00:19:25
Jen
Shut up, I'm bored.
00:19:26
El Platypo
important um and they say I thought yours was a very, very and insightful and meaningful and reflective point around the moral and the odds the situation, which I think I'm going to pick up on and reflect by...
00:19:26
Jen
Go for it.
00:19:42
El Platypo
saying sex love the way Tuvok does when he decides to make his first two vixtas when he met decides to make his first intervention in a debate. I thought there was far too much seriousness.
00:19:55
El Platypo
One of the moments that made me laugh was in the middle of a very, very serious conference room with ah all of the captain's leadership team as they try and work out what happened.
00:20:08
El Platypo
They were all sort of throwing up their hands and being very serious. And then Tuvok loudly says the sex word, which you very rarely hear in Star Trek. And he just says it as one thing really loudly and boldly. I'm convinced.
00:20:22
El Platypo
Sex. Sorry, that was a little bit flash art from Blackadder. um
00:20:26
Red D
um
00:20:27
El Platypo
With the boldness of Neelix and the conviction of Tuvok, which I really, really liked. So was wondering if we could give that some thought and discussion the way we did the Merchant of Venice alike.
00:20:37
Red D
ah
00:20:40
Red D
Well, I enjoyed Janeway's reaction, I'm sure she was like, excuse me? Or something like that.
00:20:44
Jen
I'm sorry.
00:20:46
El Platypo
Can you truly say you enjoyed it if you're only sure you don't know for a fact?
00:20:50
Red D
Well, as I said, I did not write it down. and My brain is very tight today. and also, I don't know Jamie's your brain. I've just sort sort of like rattling off lines. I've only heard once, sadly.
00:21:00
El Platypo
Well, I mean, it's it's a one-word line. it's um yeah yeah Thank you all for countenancing my intervention this one. Red, would you dare to give us your first point that you've enjoyed of or that you noticed about this?
00:21:16
Red D
Yeah, so I think I'm going right back to the beginning, the opening scene of the teaser with, um, Nelix and Tuvok. God, this is hard to say now. um
00:21:25
Jen
Thank you.
00:21:26
Red D
On the planet, and they're collecting these orchids. And I just, I think it was done intentionally, but I did feel like on rewatching, they really played up their characters a lot.
00:21:36
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:21:36
Red D
Like, they were as Tuvok as possible and as Neelix as possible.
00:21:37
El Platypo
What gives?
00:21:39
Red D
Because that, I guess, made the rest of the episode, like, you know, more fun in
00:21:40
El Platypo
walk in
00:21:44
Red D
Well, fun. But, um, so... I mean, i can't remember how what Neelix says to Tuvok, but something about like being exhilarated. And Tuvok is like, as you well know by now, I do not experience exhilaration.
00:21:58
Red D
And just like, there were a couple of lines. And then Neelix is like, well, can't we have fun? And Tuvok is like, we're not here to have fun. And I just love Neelix's line, which is something like, um is there some regulation that says we can't do both at the same time?
00:22:13
Red D
So they were really like...
00:22:14
Jen
Thank you.
00:22:14
Red D
ah kind of playing each other, and I think eventually, Tuvok actually says something like, can you please be less like yourself? Which I was just...
00:22:24
El Platypo
Which is advice I've had before an interview.
00:22:28
Red D
um So, i just enjoyed that, because I think it um sets up the episode very well, it's kind of a good comedy, and then, and don't want to say too much, I guess, about the guest actor, or guest star, but I think he does a good job, as you said, ah Jamie, earlier, but you see like elements of both characters ah through the rest of the episode, through his portrayal. But just because we've seen them so strongly at the start, I think that kind of helps.
00:23:00
Red D
But otherwise, I just thought it was very funny.
00:23:02
El Platypo
Agreed, agreed. I like that.
00:23:06
El Platypo
and I think, it's my one cool thing, that they do sort of position as the polar opposites, and I'm just wondering, I always wonder why the there's not like some mass I was going to say population problem amongst Vulcans because I'm always like, so if they don't experience exhilaration or joy or anything anything like that, where do they get sat- how do they get satisfaction? Do they get satisfaction?
00:23:31
El Platypo
Where's it? Do they get any joy in life? I mean, I'm being very like, ah least favourite character ever here. But the question does occur. and again i have a lot of questions about Vulcans that are unlikely to find answers.
00:23:44
El Platypo
Anyway, I'll...
00:23:45
Red D
Jenny, do you want to address that?
00:23:47
El Platypo
Yeah, go for it. You're a okay, Jen.
00:23:48
Red D
No.
00:23:48
El Platypo
You look crazy. You look very, very unhappy with what I just said.
00:23:52
Jen
Oh no, I am... I thought I was unhappy with you asking me to answer the question. I don't know. ah You want me to give some explanation of the entire Vulcan culture.
00:24:05
Jen
i um i don't feel qualified.
00:24:06
El Platypo
Yes, explain volcanism. Explain volcanism to me. Jean Roddenberry had answers. Why can't I have them? Anyway, I think on
00:24:14
Red D
I think they derive satisfaction, but yeah, maybe not exhilaration.
00:24:19
El Platypo
on which note, I think it's probably, rather than positing random unanswerable questions to Jenny, time I asked her for her next point on it. So what was the next thing that struck you about this episode, Jenny? Jenny?
00:24:31
Jen
Well, um they're all a bit wishy-washy, I'm sorry, a little sort of this vague, you know, ethical dilemma type, you know, thoughts I've just noted down.
Ethical Dilemmas and Character Reactions
00:24:42
Jen
So I'm not sure that that's that interesting.
00:24:43
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:24:44
Jen
There we go ah i found how this crew responded to two Vicks all a bit strange. um I'm not sure that I can really like articulate it, but I thought perhaps that they seemed particularly um standoffish, I don't know, just a surprising amount of um like negativity towards him, both like during the point where they thought he was going to be around for ages, but, and then especially, obviously, when they found out that he was trying to refuse to be split back into Tuluc Neelix.
00:25:21
Jen
And I can understand the the the one aspect of it, which is that, you know, they they want their crewmates back and this, this new guy is basically not letting that happen. But I just would have expected knowing the characters, them to have a bit more sympathy with like a life form that wants to live still, you know?
00:25:38
El Platypo
and
00:25:41
Jen
Like they have all these other life forms they meet that try and kill them. and then And then it turns out they're trying to kill them because they see them as a threat and they're just trying to like survive in a ah difficult, challenging universe.
00:25:44
Red D
Yeah.
00:25:49
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:25:52
Jen
And there's so much sympathy for these these life forms that have been trying to kill them
00:25:54
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:25:56
Jen
Whereas this guy, he's not actually actively trying to kill anyone. He just wants to live. And ah yeah I find it a bit of a weird, um almost at odds with the characters as you know them.
00:26:10
Jen
um not Not so much Kes. I think she's probably like reacts as you would expect.
00:26:13
Red D
yeah
00:26:16
El Platypo
yeah
00:26:16
Jen
um But just the other characters. So I found that all a bit odd. don't know what you guys thought.
00:26:24
Red D
That scene where he, where Janeway is ordering him to go to the sickbay with her for him to be de-spliced, I guess, or to be essentially executed, as he he put it.
00:26:35
Red D
Yeah, the crew is cold. But I think... um
00:26:40
El Platypo
I think they're morally torn and it's a really difficult situation to go either way. and i would say they they take him to Chesson-Rhin for Paul. don't
00:26:48
Red D
Yes, before that I think people are making friendships with him, so I didn't pick it up earlier, but that scene is pretty cold on the bridge, but I think that heightens the horror for him. and Like, as a viewer, if that makes sense.
00:27:00
El Platypo
know.
00:27:00
Red D
so
00:27:01
Jen
I guess I'm thinking of like before Janeway has made her decision known, um you know when he comes onto the bridge and um you know that he tries to relieve the previous officer and the previous officer sort of gives him the cold shoulder and asks for confirmation from Chakotay and then the same Tom Paris kind of reacts the same and then Chakotay says well he's still
00:27:07
Red D
Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:27:27
Jen
still on the bridge for now kind of. is It's all very...
00:27:33
El Platypo
It's all a bit like judgment.
00:27:33
Jen
yeah i just think it's... so yeah maybe it is trying to create that horror element because you know i guess I just think about it from the point of view of Tuvix and you think you... you eat your life hangs in the balance and then you've got this crew around you treating you like dirt basically without sympathy.
00:27:51
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:27:51
Red D
Yeah, who played pool with you in Centurines and now they're like, bye.
00:27:55
Jen
Yeah, they just turn around in a blink of an eye and yeah.
00:27:55
Red D
like Yeah.
00:27:56
El Platypo
run Yeah. Interesting.
00:28:01
Red D
No, I mean, well, yes, I think, but I think there's like a kind of, now that you're speaking, we're speaking about it, it almost reminds me, maybe it's going to tie into like Jamie's decision later, but it's like, well, this is what's best for the crew. You're not really part of the crew.
00:28:17
Red D
Like, uh,
00:28:18
El Platypo
That's really un-Janeway-ish. She chooses the well-being of the majority over the minority.
00:28:23
Red D
Yes, that is that I did, mate. That's true.
00:28:26
El Platypo
i mean Maybe maybe she she's trying to get back to the whole, look, he's not a person, he's the combination of two people and a plant, and the plant doesn't count, sort of, a place. and Look, we've all got to be grown up about this, but if that's how she felt, I needed her to say that, because i was emotionally invested in two weeks by that stage, because anyone who beats up people at pool at Chez André don't fall.
00:28:48
Red D
Hmm. Yeah, was pretty cold, for sure.
00:28:53
El Platypo
So I would like to build on the Chez Sandrine element in that I thought there were a load of moments where Tuvix was played like someone who was a smooth nightclub musician from Shaft with like a good deal more riz and swag than you typically have from Star Trek character, which I really enjoyed.
00:29:14
El Platypo
I suppose I'm going to amalgamate that as well with the fact that there are a lot of times where his voice reminded me of Captain Holt, the great Andre Braga, in the scene where he pretends to ah like Marshmallow slash be fun.
00:29:22
Red D
Oh, yes.
00:29:29
El Platypo
I really enjoyed that there were sort of moments where it was like swag, yeah I'm i' the smooth guy on the crew which is quite enjoyable really um and I think you got that sensation of a new creature but who's enjoying life which almost made it even more poignant
00:29:30
Jen
Thank you.
00:29:54
El Platypo
I'd welcome being shut down about that though because I might be being a bit earnest here
00:29:58
Red D
No, I mean, all I have to say is the cold open where they try to predict but Captain Holt's reaction to marshmallows and, and, um, my gosh, I've gone blank. What's his name?
00:30:09
Red D
Jake and... What's the best friend?
00:30:13
Jen
Oh, Boyle?
00:30:13
Red D
and Boyle. And Boyle gets it right. He's like, ooh, ooh, ooh.
00:30:16
El Platypo
I mean,
00:30:17
Jen
That, oh, that is such a great scene. Yeah.
00:30:19
Red D
That's so good.
00:30:21
Jen
I love that reaction from Clapton Hall.
00:30:21
Red D
oh and Captain Holt doesn't think that'd be bad. I feel like I was typing some notes during the Sandrine sections.
00:30:29
El Platypo
i mean we all type notes at Cher Sondry.
00:30:33
Red D
but So I don't have too much to comment on there. But yeah, he he definitely had some, um yeah, the way he delivered some lines, sometimes a bit more even to what you're saying earlier, Shakespearean, or not theatrical, but theatre training. a
00:30:47
El Platypo
Yeah. So go for it. Red, torch to you.
00:30:50
Red D
um Yeah, which is definitely my, so I think, um maybe Maybe I'll go on this point, sorry. I'm gonna go little bit out order But and yes, overall,
00:31:05
El Platypo
Don't go on that one.
00:31:08
Red D
um there's a lot to say about this character, Tubix, and the actor, looked it up, Tom Wright, who played, and he had worked separately with Neelix and Tubic, I mean, Tim Ross and
00:31:15
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:31:23
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:31:23
Red D
my gosh, i just go blank when I have to remember a name. Which he played on apparently in his audition. But A, I just thought his costume and his his makeup pretty well done. Good like mix of the two characters.
00:31:33
El Platypo
yeah
00:31:35
Red D
His costume. like when he Before I guess he was like on board and you noticed the flowers on the upper half.
00:31:42
El Platypo
I love those!
00:31:42
Red D
So you had a little touch of neelix flamboyance.
00:31:43
El Platypo
They were just so funny! It's like the absolute combination of them.
00:31:47
Red D
And I guess the plants, I just realized.
00:31:49
El Platypo
Yeah, and then there's the Mothrek Yellow all over them.
00:31:49
Red D
Yeah, that was... um ah Yeah, as we've already said a few times, like the way he, a little bit of Neelix's cheekiness or Tuvok's logic would slip, like, not really slip out.
00:32:01
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:32:06
Red D
But um I did think he did a brilliant job. But I also thought for him, it must be so weird to know all these people and you're a stranger to them.
00:32:12
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:32:16
Red D
Like, so, and that's what led to, I think, to some of the creepiness, like when he told Kes that he loved her and was like, it was like, too soon, dude.
00:32:16
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:32:17
Jen
Hmm.
00:32:24
Red D
like and Like, yeah, you feel like you've known these people forever. um So what a strange, strange position to be in. But then I also like the way they showed the genius, I guess, that results by combining the two characters.
00:32:37
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:32:38
Red D
Like, when he had that hunch and solved that problem in like one day instead of 10 days or something, and it's the,
00:32:45
El Platypo
There are times when he's more powerful than Neelix and Tuvok are individually, aren't
00:32:51
Red D
Yes, but I guess that's why it's good though when they are teamed up, now that I think about it, because we can't all have all those characteristics. ah As much as Tumak might hate it, it's for a good reason.
00:33:03
El Platypo
I don't know why, I'm trying to say I really preferred Neelix to Tuvix as a name.
00:33:11
Red D
Oh.
00:33:12
El Platypo
Sounds more like them when they're powerful, Nivok.
00:33:12
Red D
Please.
00:33:15
Red D
Oh.
00:33:16
Jen
Yeah, i prefer that one too.
00:33:17
Red D
oh
00:33:20
Red D
So yeah, I just thought interesting character, so well portrayed, well designed um and then I felt bad for him.
00:33:30
El Platypo
I feel really sad because this ends sadly.
00:33:35
Red D
it's badly
00:33:36
El Platypo
yeah and Jenny, to you, and I suspect to give the other side of that particular coin of reds about the power of Tuvix.
Janeway's Decision and Moral Implications
00:33:48
El Platypo
I was just asking you about next thought on it, we seem to have taken that one to its place.
00:33:54
Jen
Ah, okay. Well, what did I have noted down? Um, I didn't have too many more to be honest. I was just keen on your thoughts on Janeway's decision.
00:34:06
Jen
Was it the right decision? do you think there was a right decision?
00:34:14
Red D
I think, well, if I frame it in the, um she has to do what's best for the crew, bit like the government has to do what's best for their own country, not every other country, or your own. m I think she made the tough decision, because again, ah feel like at this today's age, a lot of people make decisions because it'll make them feel good in the moment based on what they're seeing in front of them, not on what's better for more people uh or what's actually it's hard to say what's the right thing or the wrong thing but you know like so yes if someone is there in front of you begging for their life it's kind of easier well i mean i'm talking about in tv world i'm not talking about like like it's easier to like okay yeah sure of course like let's you know like those guys are gone anyway like uh it's very hard to face the person as she does and actually again it's you know hyperspray so it's not a
00:34:46
Jen
This is a
00:34:57
El Platypo
um,
00:34:57
Jen
isn't it
00:35:13
Red D
to do it ah herself. And you can see the toll it takes on her when she leaves, think, sick bait.
00:35:17
El Platypo
Oh yeah, and well there.
00:35:18
Jen
Hmm.
00:35:20
El Platypo
i mean, even though he says to everyone he forgives them, it's...
00:35:27
El Platypo
I agree with you, Red. She takes the decision that is almost inhumanly painful in the moment to reduce the overall suffering overall, because had she fudged away from it would have been even worse.
00:35:40
Red D
Yeah, I mean, I think the line that stood out to me when I guess she was debating with Tuvix was like, she said something like, but what about Tuvok and Neelix?
00:35:45
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:35:53
Red D
Two voices we can't hear right now. Right, so...
00:35:55
El Platypo
Yeah. And I like that. I think that was a really good thing to remember and one that possibly played against Tuvix's chance of survival and that he didn't consider their perspective, whereas there was a hint from the captain that both Tuvok and Neelix would have.
00:36:12
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:36:14
Red D
What did you think, Jenny?
00:36:14
Jen
Yeah. I mean, I always do find that a really odd outcome. The fact that Tuvix as an individual is wanting to live even though that means the death of Neelix and Tuvok, when in fact those two individuals would probably sacrifice themselves.
00:36:29
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:36:32
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:36:34
Jen
So sort of question like, up well I mean would any of it actually happen obviously, but like it seems unlikely that if you were the sum of those two individuals like it would be a weird characteristic, but then I guess you know things like that do you happen in genetics, you know you mix two different
00:36:41
Red D
What did you think?
00:36:52
Jen
sets and then you get something completely wildly different but um yeah i mean it's a really difficult question isn't it I think um I mean like I I completely understand the doctor's view on it like I just like in medical profession it's just you know you do no harm so there is a live person here I can't hurt them and it's just as simple as that and back and white but like you know
00:37:08
Red D
Yeah, that's a good point.
00:37:09
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:37:16
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:37:21
Jen
ah but i have I find Tuvix creepy and you know i really like the i like the character of Tuvok and dare I say it sometimes Phoenix so ah yeah I'd like that wouldn't be the gut reaction but that would be like the sort of logical
00:37:33
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:37:37
El Platypo
That's self-hitter. Yeah.
00:37:39
Red D
I think he or the writers,
00:37:39
Jen
um
00:37:41
Red D
um
00:37:44
Red D
I think it was, i presume it was intentional, but the way he, when he went to KISS to ask for her to speak to Captain Janeway on his behalf, was like, that is taking it too far, buddy.
00:37:55
Red D
Like that is like completely ignoring everyone else's feelings.
00:37:59
El Platypo
And he has played in a way that sometimes in those instances made selfishness seem to be the key driver for him, if that makes any sense.
00:38:00
Red D
Um,
00:38:10
Red D
Which I guess is the key driver of life. but But I'm just saying they, guess they managed our sympathy towards the character, but by,
00:38:13
El Platypo
A bit bleeped.
00:38:22
Red D
um
00:38:25
Red D
I guess so um maybe it wasn't intentional, but I mean, I i liked him. I felt bad for him, but then I was glad when the two are getting the legs back.
00:38:33
Jen
see that's interesting because I didn't like him
00:38:33
Red D
So I think, yeah.
00:38:37
Jen
like I thought he was unlikable as a character um and so I thought that that was intentional because they were going to have to kill him off at the end and they wanted to make sure that people were happy to have Tuvok and Neelix back because they're the key cast members and
00:38:40
Red D
Okay.
00:38:44
El Platypo
I
00:38:52
El Platypo
don't know because I to me that
00:38:57
El Platypo
I sort of thought they were trying to do something slightly different, which wasn't making unlikable so that you know it's okay when he die when the other two brought back slash he dies. I thought they were more trying to show it as opposed to it being a straight thing of the whole is more than the parts.
00:39:16
El Platypo
actually showing that actually there are disbalances in this individual's character that come out. and As much as he is stronger than Neelix and Tuvok in some aspects, in others, morally, for instance, he's weaker.
00:39:29
Red D
Hmm.
00:39:30
El Platypo
Which he is, because Neelix and Tuvok, as much as they represent different ends of the spectrum, and I have a thought about whether they're being played as good angel bad angel of personality,
00:39:31
Jen
Hmm.
00:39:32
Red D
Yeah. Hmm.
00:39:42
El Platypo
You can't see either of them acting selfishly at the ways and in the times that Tuvix does. At the times the ways that Tuvix does. And I sort of thought that that was being positioned.
00:39:58
El Platypo
But maybe I'm ascribing too much subtlety, which I'd love to think the Star Trek writers were that subtle. Are they? Brett, tell me, tell me.
00:40:05
Red D
Well, they wanted to write this as a sitcom, so I'm not sure, but I do really like your point.
00:40:08
Jen
Thank you.
00:40:09
Red D
is there I have I hadn't considered but yes, like I kept picking up, I guess, on the bits where the combination was better than the separate parts, but you highlighted the fact that, yeah, actually, that wasn't always the case.
00:40:24
El Platypo
Yeah, sometimes complete logic in the service of selfishness can be a bit, you know, bad.
00:40:30
Red D
That's true, that's true.
00:40:33
El Platypo
It's useful, I guess. I guess that from Janu took me on to basically what I thought was the fact the actor played both so incredibly well and that there were always hints of it, like there'd be a hint of just personal self-interest in the eyes of Neelix or that comes out of Tuvix or Tuvok in just the poise and the command and the self-confidence with which he filled the space and I thought it was played with real subtlety actually an unusual subtlety but it will bring me on to my final point when we get there but I think it's it's red it's your turn what do you think
00:41:16
Red D
Well, I'm gonna just bring back, have to ask you guys what you thought about the return of the robe. don't know, I'm sure what's the return. Janeway's satin pink robe.
00:41:26
Red D
was like, oh.
00:41:27
Jen
Oh of course.
00:41:28
Red D
Yes.
00:41:29
Jen
oh
00:41:29
Red D
Great outfit.
00:41:30
Jen
I love her robes. I sound really creepy I know but I love her nightwear.
00:41:32
Red D
Yes, me too. was like, yes, i was like, we have seen her on this because, you know, we watched it so often that I was like, but I think we've seen it on the podcast, for whatever way of putting it. Like,
00:41:44
El Platypo
No.
00:41:44
Red D
some sazen robe, but then now her hair was down. I think the last time we saw in the robe her hair was up. Or like half up, half down. Anyway, love the robe. That was very...
00:41:53
Jen
Love the robe, love the hair down, love love seeing Jayway and her, you know, letting her hair down kind of outfit and whatnot.
00:42:02
Red D
And, you know, now that I've mentioned the robe, i should probably mention the scene the robe appeared in, which was actually quite a good scene, because Kez goes to her late at night for support. And I think the thing that stood out to me is like,
00:42:14
Red D
when Jamie pointed out that Kez is going through what the whole crew has been through, like being separated from a loved one and having no idea how it's going to end. was like, oh, yes, good point. But mainly the robe.
00:42:25
Red D
Great robe.
00:42:26
Jen
the I'm just wondering if the robe's going to be stopped there for anyone.
00:42:30
Red D
ah
00:42:31
El Platypo
Oh gosh, such a good option um adopt
00:42:35
Jen
I don't know if you can choose it, Jay, like because it might be a bit creepy, has to be me or Red.
00:42:39
Red D
ah
00:42:40
Jen
Although...
00:42:40
El Platypo
Well, I just wanted to say, how am I not the one who's massively fanning out about the robe as, you know, Bamshack or WellWow?
00:42:51
Red D
Well, I think we're all in agreement then.
00:42:53
El Platypo
Are we, though? Or are we in agreement for different reasons, though, Red? um we in agreement?
00:42:56
Red D
I don't want to dig into that
00:42:58
El Platypo
I don't know, Red. I think there's a lot of mileage to be made there, and I'm the mediator, so, you know, what's it worth not to dig into it?
00:43:09
Red D
Cat sitting in June.
00:43:11
El Platypo
Wow, I can't believe you would put the Border Patrol Expeditionary Squad, the Union, at risk if we do or do not dig into Jane Weasel.
00:43:13
Red D
I just pull out the big guns.
00:43:16
Red D
Okay.
00:43:21
El Platypo
Outrageous. Jenny, get us back to sanity for the love of heaven.
00:43:24
Red D
so
00:43:25
Jen
Well, I would, but I think I've used up all my points. I didn't have that many on this episode. um Even though like i do, because I do love the whole, you know, ethical dilemma andm episodes and ones that have a bit of a moral question and philosophical bent and has all that.
00:43:45
Jen
But um yeah, it just, I don't really like the character of Tuvix. um And obviously it is all about him. So I think that sort of puts me off a bit of this episode in general, even though um you know I don't think he does a bad job um of acting the part.
00:44:03
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:44:08
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:44:10
Jen
um But yeah, I'm going to have to pass it over, I think.
00:44:14
El Platypo
thats Okay. So I have something think we all need to talk about. is it How come every time it feels like the writers get bored, they got they decide to squish Tuvok's personality into yet another random, slightly unsavoury character?
00:44:32
El Platypo
So they did it with a serial killer, and then they sort of seem to have wasted episodes, and they've done it with two picks. um Can we talk about lazy screenwriting here, or am I just being a bit paranoid?
00:44:44
El Platypo
And they've squished him in with a plant as well, which, you know, root pills.
00:44:45
Red D
ah
00:44:50
Red D
Well, don't know if this is a good enough list of examples, but... um It's fun for the actors when they get to play something different to their normal character, like when he was a serial killer.
00:45:02
Red D
But now he wasn't even on screen, it was a different actor, so I'm not sure.
00:45:04
Jen
doesn
00:45:06
Red D
But um and maybe it's because his character, a Vulcan character, is so fun to mix with human fallibility. But yeah, I don't know.
00:45:17
El Platypo
Fair enough.
00:45:19
Red D
Sorry, i but was that answer not long enough for you to finish your snack today?
00:45:23
El Platypo
No, no, no, no, I'm just trying to, you know, get a bit more out of you without asking for more out of you. That makes any sense.
00:45:28
Jen
You will know, Jay, that when I have a little sneaky snack, I always press the mute button and then And then I only unmute when all the snacking is complete.
00:45:39
El Platypo
I know, and I've i've really and i really wanted this to have homespun, home studio, raw feel to it, where you can basically hear crunching and smell the spit and soda on the floor of our dining room.
00:45:40
Red D
Any... Sorry.
00:45:41
Jen
Hint, hint.
00:45:49
Red D
say to anyone's not...
00:45:52
El Platypo
And you're ruining it by muting, really ruining what was predetermined effect.
00:45:52
Red D
If and funny So if anyone wants to learn how to make a podcast 40 times without learning anything, I think we are the right podcast to listen to.
00:46:03
Jen
Thank you.
00:46:04
Red D
yeah
00:46:04
El Platypo
Well, some of us are.
00:46:06
El Platypo
Some of us are, you know, in the gutters.
00:46:06
Jen
and
00:46:06
Red D
Woo.
00:46:09
El Platypo
Some of us are in the gutters looking at the stars and some of us muting ourselves think we are the stars themselves. I say from the gutter. But from the gutter to you, Red, would you like to...
00:46:21
El Platypo
Hmm...
00:46:21
Red D
I think I could have just one final point but it is going well you know well now I've got I want to try and choose between the two I liked Janeway's management style in this episode because she just always handles everything so well so Janeway's like like but like Tuvex is like, oh, to just go back to tactical because I have all of Tuvok's tactical knowledge.
00:46:49
Red D
And she's like, no but you can come to our senior leadership meeting.
00:46:49
El Platypo
Yeah, just think they're hilarious.
00:46:53
Jen
Thank you.
00:46:53
Red D
um So still, you know, not ah boxing him completely, but just diverting him on a more appropriate path.
00:46:55
El Platypo
Mm.
00:47:01
Red D
And then when he does come up with a sex theory, which is that these plants have this symbiogenesis thing and that's how they all look together.
00:47:03
El Platypo
Mm.
00:47:05
El Platypo
Mm.
00:47:10
Red D
um You know, at the end call, she's like, like, launches them for its very good contribution. And, you know, ah so I was like,
00:47:18
El Platypo
And I think the way she manages Kes also, which is mobility and pathos.
00:47:20
Red D
yes, yes.
00:47:24
Red D
Yes, it was ah that was like, so good, like, management and then good, like, leadership. Because in that moment, that bathrobe scene, well, that bedrobe scene, where Kees is like, oh, are you saying ah I should, like, get over Neelix or something?
00:47:33
El Platypo
can't remember it.
00:47:37
Red D
And she's like, no, I would never tell anyone that. Like, kind that's all I'm saying, a little kind
00:47:41
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:47:42
Red D
Very sympathetic, empathetic. She can adjust. She's great. There we
00:47:47
Jen
She is. I also want to add on to your point as well. I think the scene where she actually has made her decision and she's going to tell him um and you know something like that obviously like I can only liken to it not that I've had any experience of this but I know others who have had experience of telling someone that they're getting the boot at work um and was
00:47:53
Red D
go. Yes.
00:48:06
Red D
Yes.
00:48:08
Jen
was speaking to about so to someone who had to do this many times over recently and they were talking about how they went and threw up in a toilet before and after.
00:48:15
Red D
Oh.
00:48:15
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:48:17
Jen
um so like, it's obviously like a really intense stress situation.
00:48:17
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:48:18
Red D
Interesting.
00:48:21
Jen
So this would be like a million times a million that, but you know, she's she's very calm and she's very clear, um but still very, ah you know, laying down the boundaries and the, you know, being firm, I guess.
00:48:21
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:48:23
Red D
Yes.
00:48:24
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:48:33
Jen
um And then he basically reacts in the way you would be like, what would be the worst possible the way this person could react and that is how he reacts. It's like, you know he won't go into, he won't have discussion in private, he wants everyone to hear, it's a bit of a tantrum and then he starts trying to fight the guards.
00:48:48
El Platypo
yeah
00:48:51
El Platypo
hmm
00:48:52
Jen
um And you know throughout all that, I think you know she has the she has the captain management style red that we like so much, which you know you have to imagine that you know that's on the outside, but underneath it all, it's like the worst,
00:48:58
Red D
Yeah.
00:49:07
Jen
possible situation and emotionally internally going on because you feel like you're killing someone.
00:49:07
El Platypo
and
00:49:13
Jen
um
00:49:14
Red D
Yeah, the word fortitude. I don't know if it's the right word, but it's coming to mind in that final...
00:49:18
Jen
and
00:49:20
El Platypo
Yes.
00:49:21
Jen
That's a good word.
00:49:22
El Platypo
Yeah. I liked her.
00:49:26
El Platypo
I feel we've gotten this one down quite well, and I think we we understand this episode, I suppose. Any themes that stand out beyond the general moments that made us smile, made us cry?
00:49:37
El Platypo
That sounded incredibly wanky.
00:49:43
Red D
No, was just, was chasing.
00:49:45
El Platypo
Gave us a smile, gave us a tear. Hmm.
00:49:49
Red D
I do think, okay, Janie's very good.
00:49:50
Jen
i'm Oh, bit crossover. bit crossover. That's just showing what podcasting pros we are. you know
00:49:56
Red D
Hmm.
00:49:57
Jen
yeah um I was going to say, i think there's a strong identity theme throughout. you know He only really sort of starts to become a person after he's in this situation.
00:50:06
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:50:08
Jen
you mix? I mean, for a couple of weeks, you know like Janeway, I think, mentions at one point, if this solution to separate him had happened immediately after the accident, this wouldn't be the situation.
00:50:17
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:50:18
Jen
we wouldn't have this dilemma. It would have just been an accident that went wrong. We can immediately rectify.
00:50:23
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:50:24
Jen
Whereas the fact that he spends, I don't know, two weeks or however long it becoming a person and establishing an identity within the crew, that is what makes it a massive dilemma that it later becomes.
00:50:24
El Platypo
Yeah,
00:50:39
El Platypo
yeah
00:50:41
Red D
yeah
00:50:44
Red D
um i was just gonna say i think like depending on what's going on in the world or or your life whatever I guess the theme has changed from time to time but I guess what I'm thinking about now in terms of the theme is I guess you have to look beyond emotion or who's crying you know the loudest or whatever to make a good decision and you have to consider everyone for all voices not just what you would make be the easiest for yourself in the moment so ah just keep thinking a about it online like there are two voices missing here
00:51:08
El Platypo
I
00:51:19
Red D
So yeah, that what that for me was, I guess, a potential theme. Probably not the theme when it was written, but that's that's what I'm picking it up now.
00:51:27
El Platypo
like that. I like that. Yeah. Cool.
00:51:32
Red D
Jamie, you have a thing?
00:51:34
El Platypo
I don't know. I mean...
Closing Reflections on Ethical Themes
00:51:38
El Platypo
I don't have one to sort of offer at the level your good selves do. i mean There's the whole rights of the whole versus rights of the individual one. There's
00:51:53
El Platypo
the right to life at the expense of others. The Hippocratic Oath as well. But I think ah think we've almost covered them, really. yeah Stark players.
00:52:09
Jen
Mmm. Mmm, don't either.
00:52:10
Red D
I don't know. so I can't go first.
00:52:15
El Platypo
I mean, I do, yeah, i and it's even better than that.
00:52:15
Red D
Well, Jamie, I think you've got a great start.
00:52:21
El Platypo
i think the plan for having the only known threesome on Voyager. Oh
00:52:28
Red D
oh ah but I thought- I just saw plant and i thought you were gonna like give it some kind of credence for its scientific- well, some biogenesis.
00:52:34
El Platypo
ah no, it's it's also like the first thing ever to get one over Tuvok, but let's leave that. i' I'm going with threesome line of argument for it.
00:52:44
Red D
Very good, very good.
00:52:46
El Platypo
And, pre-note, I'm muting myself as I have a crack.
00:52:50
Red D
Janie, do you have start for you?
00:52:52
Jen
I'm gonna choose the robe.
00:52:54
Red D
Oh, come on, I wanted to throw.
00:52:58
Jen
I feel like it's really offensive to everyone in this episode. But it's just a sort of joke stuff there for me. But and yeah, I mean, it's just, it's not like my favorite episode.
00:53:09
Jen
um So like, and no one really stands out. I don't think anyone did a bad job, but no one stands out. I love the robe.
00:53:15
El Platypo
The robe stands out.
00:53:17
Jen
I,
00:53:18
El Platypo
As does Jane move hair while she's got the robe on.
00:53:18
Jen
and like
00:53:20
El Platypo
Like, how you sleep with that, i have no idea, but my heavens, I'm impressed.
00:53:26
Jen
I think, I think if it was, it was going to be anyone, it would be Janeway, because of, you know, the excellent management style and, you know, she nails the end look after she's, you know, sort of executed someone and she's been very sort of poker faced about it.
00:53:30
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:53:35
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:53:37
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:53:43
Jen
But then, you know, she shows in the end, at the end, that cost a lot emotionally, um which is, you know, pretty well done. But, um, I also think there's later episodes that I think she's bloody amazing so I don't want to, you know, be too, too overly glowing too soon.
00:54:04
Red D
Okay, so there we've got thelon the plant, the robe, and the last bite.
00:54:08
El Platypo
Go object. Objectify, Rab. Objectify.
00:54:12
Red D
I mean, maybe I should choose barium because that's what gave them the idea too.
00:54:16
El Platypo
but with burian Go with with Barium.
00:54:16
Red D
ah
00:54:18
El Platypo
That's like the most Sheldon Cooper-esque answer ever. Yes, why Barium? No take backs.
00:54:23
Red D
Because
00:54:24
El Platypo
No take backs.
00:54:25
Red D
Barium was the thing that the people used to swallow so they could see the... follow it, I guess, through people's digestive system on the x-ray, and so they did something similar to the DNA so they could extract them.
00:54:36
Red D
One DNA person out.
00:54:36
El Platypo
Boom time.
00:54:37
Jen
Yeah, yeah.
00:54:37
El Platypo
Yes, Barium.
00:54:39
Jen
I was wondering if that would come up at any point, like the whole medical...
00:54:39
El Platypo
Yes.
00:54:42
Jen
ah we didn't really talk about any the medical stuff.
00:54:44
Red D
We did it, but now we have something. We've covered it.
00:54:48
El Platypo
Ah, great job.
00:54:48
Red D
Two barium.
00:54:49
El Platypo
Great job, Tiberium.
00:54:51
Jen
I feel really bad for all the actors in this one because no one gets a star player.
00:54:56
El Platypo
Well, they should have produced an episode that you guys liked more if they wanted
00:54:56
Jen
No was bad.
00:54:56
Red D
so
00:55:00
Red D
No, I love this episode. i felt I thought everyone's acting as though, for me, I thought i everyone did a really good job, so it's hard to pick someone up. Like, I thought Kez's face ah when she first sees Tivix was so good.
00:55:11
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:55:13
Red D
Everyone's like, oh, okay. And she's like, um who are you? Like, her face was just very good. But everyone had lots of good, like, little moments, but
00:55:16
El Platypo
And also... Elements of unbuff, but yes, also what you said. Anyway, on which note and unreconstruction note, I think it is time, unless we have any more say, to cue the music. And yeah, leave it on that unsavoury little Sally at Kez's expense.
00:55:38
Red D
And if you are looking for a nice robe, M&S is doing a collab with Olivia Von Hale. I mean, they might have sold out already, but it went live two days ago.
00:55:45
El Platypo
Cool.
00:55:46
Red D
ah check it out.
00:55:46
El Platypo
Do they have a peach, satin, sulk version that I can put on and feel like Janeway?
00:55:47
Red D
ah
00:55:47
Jen
but
00:55:51
Red D
but They have assassin robes.
00:55:55
Jen
Nice. I actually bought some fake satin pyjamas at Christmas.
00:55:56
El Platypo
I'm
00:55:59
Jen
They're amazing.
00:56:00
Red D
Oh, nice.
00:56:00
El Platypo
a bit worried we're not really playing the team the respect it deserves, so, Rud, could you play it again? I encourage you all be respectful, please.
00:56:07
Jen
We're supposed to talk over it. That's the whole vibe we're going for.
00:56:12
El Platypo
Not the mediator this week.
00:56:16
Red D
For those listening, Jamie just pointed his finger.
00:56:17
El Platypo
Everyone, hand over petrol. Respectful silence, please.
00:56:25
Red D
I'm sure the jingle's different every time I play it. I'm so confused.
00:56:28
Jen
Thank you.
00:56:28
Red D
Anyway.
00:56:29
El Platypo
Stop the jingle again.
00:56:30
Red D
Bye!