Transcript
Jamie: like just use the side lights there oh my goodness you know what you need which is just anyway I just like with with reference yeah to my previous comments I'm not happy to lead i just think that everyone should know that I'm doing this under duress I didn't agree before the episode etc etc
Jen: I'm testing out the different light categories.
Red D: This is not even a video podcast.
Jen: reasonable know two.
Red D: So I...
Red D: Okay, Jamie. Well, next time I'll ask you live.
Jamie: um yeah
Red D: oh
Red D: But as our faithful leader, i guess you get to say when we get to stop dancing. And by dancing, I just mean take shoulder rolls.
Jamie: I mean, you'd both need to be dancing in order for that to be happening. And I also prefer the term beloved glorious leader as opposed to faithful. ah That would require something to be faithful too.
Red D: Jenny, are you sorry.
Jamie: Jenny, why aren't you bopping? Like, you know, the beloved glorious leader says bop.
Jen: o i I'm still obsessed with lighting. I have no proper lighting set up in my usual spot. And because I'm in a different spot this time, I'm obsessed with lighting.
Jamie: Okay, I will ask for the music to cease when I have proper bickering, but bickering levels thus far are inadequate. So, Shani, honestly, lighting hasn't changed once.
Red D: There we go.
Jamie: Oh, my days, turn the lights off.
Red D: There we go. That was good timing, Jenny.
Jen: I'm looking.
Jamie: Did I give permission for the music to go off?
Red D: no it just ended by itself.
Jamie: Outrageous.
Red D: Very clever.
Jamie: We outlasted it, team. We were like the enemy of the Yanks. We outlasted the siege of Stalingrad. Hello, and welcome to Janeway's Children. May we wish you all a very felicitous Easter, um or whichever festival you might choose to.
Red D: Oh, sorry.
Jen: Oh, he's coming back.
Red D: know what's happening.
Jamie: ill Just because I mentioned a non, well, yeah, actually a denominational religious festival. You didn't mean to sort of cancel me.
Red D: ah Sorry.
Jamie: ah
Red D: My mask was nowhere near the jingle soundboard! I don't know what happened.
Jamie: The money was only resting in my account.
Jen: indian
Jamie: Ah dear, welcome and hello and welcome, as I say, to this episode of Janeway's Children on which we will be discussing Season 3, Fair Trade, Episode 13 of Season 3, in which our intrepid Jamie Bate, Neelix, runs into a slice of his past at just the moment in which it appears his utility to the gallant crew of Voyager may be coming to an end as he realises that he may not know much about space from this stage onwards.
Jamie: This leads him into a number of decisions which we will all agree are well-considered, sensible, and definitely not the sort of things that expose him to potential future trouble.
Jen: also there's a weird echo here
Jamie: The plot only thickens from here as we enter the Necrid cluster. Also, there's a weird echo here.
Red D: Yes, I also heard that. Oh, now I'm not going.
Jen: might be me
Jamie: tightly run ship here. We're loving it.
Red D: Oh
Jen: i can i can put the headphones in
Red D: ah yeah, let's let's try that. But Jamie, that was such a poetic, concise, brilliant submarine.
Jen: Any questions?
Jamie: I don't think you could call that concise. um
Red D: so And I did like the slice of his past. Is that what you said?
Jamie: Well, I went for a slice of his pass, but I could have said a Joe Wicks knockoff, but that probably wouldn't have been, sorry, Wicks Von, that probably wouldn't have done the job. So ah moving into not the agenda, but our standard structure for this, i have a cool thing almost uniquely, but would you guys like to go first with any cool thing that you had?
Jen: None for me.
Jamie: So, okay, so interestingly Ethan Phillips gave an interview in which he revealed that originally this episode was due to have a scene in which the first and only time Neelix and Kes' broke up is specifically alluded to, but ultimately was cut, which Ethan Phillips deeply, deeply regretted and said he made his views known to the producers about, although he felt that they must have had their reasons to do this, which I think is is quite interesting because in spite of the fact that ultimately we see distance between them and Warlord, their split is never really made explicit or even spoken to, which is a little bit of an odd one.
Red D: That is interesting.
Red D: Man, I'm with Ethan Phillips on that, but sorry, Jenny. Yeah, two hands raised.
Jen: Yeah, well, no, guys, I just, that's amazing that you brought up, Jamie, because I, ah I mean, I won't go into too much backstory, but basically I was listening for, ah to the Warlords podcast that we did um just this week.
Red D: Over to you.
Red D: yes.
Jen: um Now, I have never listened, re-listened to any of our podcasts ever. ah
Red D: Don't lie, Jenny.
Jamie: Yeah, definitely not.
Red D: You listen to us every night before you fall asleep.
Jamie: Definitely not psyching yourself up for interviews, presentations, times you have to meet in-laws.
Jen: But, oh, hello, Leo cat.
Jamie: In case anyone's wondering, a cat has just leapt up and put its butt in my face.
Red D: Oh, it's so cute.
Jen: Oh, cute. So basically, due to neighbor noise, I'm using it as nice background white noise. Anyway, but I was listening to it and literally one of the things I brought up in that episode was um how I found it really odd that After that episode is basically, if I ah remember correctly, just taken as an assumption that guests the inmates were broken up. But I didn't think that the conversation they had in that episode was, I thought it was a bit ambiguous.
Jen: um So that is fascinating. They potentially have a scene in which they were going to make that clear for viewers.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: And it's just that it got cut. That does make a lot of sense to me.
Jamie: Yeah, I mean, if that was Friends, Ross could have legitimately said we were on a break. And, you know, in in this episode...
Jen: No, he couldn't have in this scenario because at least back then they said, she said, on a break. Whereas in in that ambiguous conversation between Kess and Neelix, it was never articulated.
Red D: I would have loved to see that scene. I mean, I guess they could leave it to the audience to figure out, but I would have, as someone who loves clarity and certainty, I would have liked that scene to be, have remained in.
Jen: think it's interesting.
Jamie: Well you guys all sort of made sounds like there was going to be like a discreet divorce and it was going to be known and made clear. I didn't realise it was just never sort of mentioned again.
Red D: No, I think that's what Jenny said. And that was like the, like, you know, the kind of weird thing.
Jen: Yeah, that it never seemed to be clear, like it was never made explicit.
Jamie: collection of our conversation. Okay.
Red D: But where where did you head into the Jamie? I'm very impressed with your one cool thing.
Jamie: Oh, so I saw that it was me doing the mediation for the mediation conflict mediation.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: Let's call it mediation, friend mediation.
Jamie: nice I don't know divorce manager and basically I decided that I would come loaded for bear. So that was me being loaded for bear.
Red D: Nice, that puts the pressure on us, Jamie.
Jamie: So, you know, on which note,
Jen: wow i Yeah, I mean, we've missed the initial reactions and I'm going to say mine because, well, partly because of anyone's room.
Jamie: Beat that with your discussion points, Jamie.
Red D: Oh, initial reactions.
Jamie: I mean Jenny, sorry. It just says discussion Jamie there in brackets and then Jenny's notes under that, which is very confusing. And also somewhere at the bottom is something about dealing crack to Ben Cisco, but let's carry on.
Jamie: and or Hang on, hang on, hang on. There's no agenda item. Oh, shit. Yeah, there is. Sorry. I thought that was just someone writing as their one minute summary initial reactions.
Jen: he wouldn
Red D: That's just a scribble.
Jamie: Sorry, initial reactions people, initial reactions.
Jen: Well, i do it i I thought you might.
Jamie: This is lot of Boris Johnson, have I got news for you in SVV?
Jen: Oh, do you know what? New series. Have I got news for you? Starts tonight. ah
Jamie: Tangent, tangent, tangent.
Jen: So exciting.
Jamie: It doesn't.
Jen: Oh, wait, no. It's tomorrow. It's tomorrow.
Jamie: if
Jen: Sorry. I'm very confused.
Jamie: Tangents. Order.
Jen: Okay.
Jamie: Star Trek. Star Trek or Star Trek related deviations.
Jen: Very massive.
Red D: Once again, we're promoting another show that's not Star Trek.
Jen: Massive deviation. Yeah.
Red D: well
Jen: Digressions.
Jamie: I'm not promoting it.
Jen: Awesome.
Jamie: It's just a really great show.
Jen: Okay, the one, quote no, not the one called, the initial reactions. um So my initial reaction is I did recognize the name and I did think to myself, oh, no, it's a Neelix one.
Red D: You guys are so anti-dealing.
Jen: No, I mean, I love the actor. I just, oh, he's character. It just irritate irritates me.
Jamie: So what, yeah.
Jen: but But then I started watching it and realized, actually, no, wait, this is one of the few Neelix ones I actually quite like.
Jamie: Now, can see you on links here and actually, of the
Red D: I think maybe we should start a tracker where we, this is a few times, just one second, one second, let me finish my thought, which is the number of times one of you says, i hate Neelix, but I actually really like this episode. I think Jamie said that quite recently.
Jamie: Well, it's interesting you should see that, Red, because where Jenny has put her thought in the ah tracker of, oh wait, I actually quite like it, it appears that someone has written, you're lying in capital immediately after that, which I think is quite telling.
Jen: Yeah!
Jamie: um nothing that That could have been anyone.
Red D: I think that person is you. Oh
Jamie: We'll never know, really. It's just one of these things. It's a ghost in the machine, but I think that's telling. Red, any initial reactions you'd care to share to the group other than why it is why does Leo come and snuggle Jenny when he comes into my shed?
Jamie: He comes and shoves his arse in my face in the same podcast.
Red D: yes, was that Leo on your screen and now Leo's on Jenny's screen? That's very confusing.
Jen: yeah
Jamie: Yeah, i know.
Red D: That's so funny.
Jamie: he's He's got a little wormhole between my shed and the house. But anyway, episode, order, structure, discipline.
Red D: You're separated by quite a long garden.
Jen: Okay.
Jamie: Wait, am I coaching rugby or am I doing a podcast? It doesn't matter. is this It's all this.
Red D: It's the same.
Jamie: What difference truly is there?
Red D: You've got to keep us in line. Very little, I imagine. But um the ah my initial reactions was, i don't remember this episode.
Jamie: Less darkly.
Red D: I don't remember this episode. ever
Jamie: Now that's interesting too, because this is a Neelix episode.
Red D: and
Jamie: It's strange you don't remember those.
Red D: I think because it's actually for me, I'm sure, growing up watching it, and even until quite recently until I kind of grew up, This would have been quite a hard watch because Newlex is nearly throwing away something that's so important for him.
Red D: And you're like how is this going to turn out?
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: And why does he keep making these bad decisions? there's probably a part of my brain that just was like, I can't handle this tension. I'd like tucked it away somewhere. I don't remember, but.
Jamie: I too couldn't handle the tension of wondering when the crew were finally going to give them the boot. But anyway, yes, I get what you were saying. We may have been experiencing that tension from opposite directions and have had differing outcomes to the ones that we wanted, but we were close, Red.
Red D: Thank you.
Jamie: We were so close, damn it.
Red D: There was tension on both sides.
Jamie: I mean, some might... Anyway, i I will return to my some might say, and I may even make it a feature of future podcasts, but I do want to return to my some might say at one stage or other.
Red D: I love it.
Jamie: So, Jenny, go for it. Lead us. Follow us.
Jen: Oh, okay.
Jamie: Sight us.
Jen: Well, I'm going to not do mine order, actually. I know.
Jamie: Oh, hang on. I can't... we do I can't... No, no, no. I'm sorry. This is most irregular. What? what's I should have been notified in advance.
Jen: I really want to bring up the second point because ah I have a whole new take on watching this one, which I never would have had watching growing up because since watching it as a teenager, I have read Miles Cameron book series um with
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Mark and Barrow the main character.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And basically this whole episode gave such an atmosphere of those books. It made me appreciate all the more because i love those books.
Red D: Ah.
Jen: It was just this idea of there's like a trade point and there's this situation with Vix where he he can't actually get his shit back from the trade point until he bargains his way out.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And that whole um scenario is just very reminiscent of those books. And I love those books.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: so I have a whole new...
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: like of this episode now maybe
Red D: Oh, that's cool. I like that. Yes, it is funny when you have, sometimes ah it's when you realize that something is based on something else, that's obviously not what happened here. i But it's like, you have more exposure to to that type of thing, or you understand the background, the world, the like, the tensions for want of a way, and how someone could get themselves into that situation.
Jen: maybe
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: and Like, it's better. ah So like enriches the story, I imagine.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Jen: I think so, yeah, because I wouldn't have had much sympathy, I think, when I first watched it for the Vix character, whereas now I probably do because there are characters in those series that, you know, through no fault of their own.
Jamie: you
Jen: And I mean, the main character comes from a ah really abusive situation in an orphanage, having lost her parents, you know, when she before she can remember them.
Jen: And then she gets herself into these situations. You develop a bit of empathy for these situations.
Jamie: you
Jamie: Do you also get Farscape vibes from the entire episode? Because it it is very redolent of the the visual imagery and the sort of scenarios and environments that you see in Farscape. That sort of closed, encramped, station on the edge of things.
Jen: Maybe a little bit from the um like design of the set. Yeah.
Jamie: That's sort of very nice, yeah.
Jen: and know I don't really see the trade stations in Foskey, but I maybe, I can't remember all the others.
Jamie: Interesting. Interesting. um So I think that's a very, very sort of deep and meta and cross world point that you're making there. um Red, kick us off for the next one.
Red D: Okay, sorry. I'm just ah responding to a message, which I don't normally do, but it's from my dad, which is very unusual. So, um
Jamie: Is everything all right?
Jen: Thank you.
Red D: ah yes, but he wants to speak tomorrow and he knows I'm flying to India. So I'm like, what is going on? Okay. um Yes. So going back, I guess, um but one one of my first points is very minor, but in the opening sequence, I guess, when Balan is in engineering,
Red D: And I guess we realized Nelix is being very pushy and annoying.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: I mean, he can be annoying. He is annoying.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Like when he's like, oh, I'm trying to like prove myself, but he does it in really the wrong way. Like, why do you go to the head of engineering and ask to shadow Like, that doesn't make any sense. Like, you know, like it's not her job to make sure that you become skilled.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Like, but anyway, we don't have to drill down into that. But I did notice that Ensign Warwick, he calls B'Elanna sir, which I don't know if I've ever noticed before, because remember, Janeway makes a point of saying, you don't have to call me sir, you can call me captain, right?
Red D: Like, I think that's something that happens early on in the in the series.
Jamie: Interesting.
Red D: But I guess the default for the person in charge is sir. So that's just this very minor thing that I picked up, which I had maybe had noticed and totally forgotten, but we know that Janeway makes a big point of it.
Red D: and I'll say, yeah, B'Elanna is called sir by her engineering team.
Jamie: nice So i I, building on that slightly and the way in which Neelix is intro... going to my first point, I did think that the way that Neelix was introduced and was introducing himself, i in the same way as you did, felt that they they were presenting him as trying to show slash gain value in the most annoying way possible in a way that made me think at the start, and I've yet had it disproved, that this episode was sent to troll me and me specifically.
Jamie: I'm going to make that as a very general point. And now I am probably going to introduce a dynamic for the remainder of this podcast, where if anyone else slags Neelix off, I'm going to leap nobly and energetically to his defense. So woe betide you. However, I will be as negative as I choose to be about Neelix myself.
Jamie: So that is the dynamic.
Red D: Well, I have more to say about how annoying he was in that scene.
Jamie: I know, and Red, I just wanted to warn you before you did that so that you'd realise the opposition you were going to be coming up against. But continue.
Red D: Okay. i'll Watch my, ah.
Jamie: How does he annoy you in that scene?
Red D: He's just like one of those oblivious people in that scene where he's like, I want something. I know everyone must bend to my will, even though you're obviously trying to solve a problem. And now it's not a good time to talk to you.
Jamie: It's just clear he just wants to add value to the crew, Red, and we should all sympathise. As the Captain says, the Starship is a starship of opportunity.
Red D: Hmm.
Red D: Yes. Okay. This is my other point. As someone who's been a line manager, or assessor as we call them, I guess, uh, in a, in a industry.
Jamie: Assessor?
Red D: Yeah. I don't know. In an industry that is very much based on your numbers, which is utilization, which when you're junior, you have no code control over, but that is just how it works.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Um, and having to tell people like, yes, I'm sorry, you're not going to get a promotion because your numbers are low And then them like, just being like, not being able to accept that, like,
Jamie: Yes. Sounds
Red D: If you can't, okay, on Voyager, you can't leave if you're not happy with the lack of promotions, right? But like in a free market, you can. But it's like, yes, no one's going to get promoted for a while, Neelix, because of the circumstances. This is not a normal shop, a normal operation where people are coming, going, moving, getting promoted. So just his little bit of a lack of contextual awareness, situational awareness, and it was annoying to me.
Jamie: True. Although, I mean, again, I have to say, we realise that he's not actually trying for a promotion specifically here.
Jen: We realize that he's actually gone from preventing the surgery.
Jamie: He's trying to find something that he can add enough value to that he's not, in his view, kicked off, right?
Jen: He's going to call it something that, I don't know, that he's not in his view kicked off. Right?
Red D: But he was never in danger of being kicked off.
Jen: But he was now his view.
Red D: So that's...
Jamie: He didn't know that, and that's a line management failure, and HR need to step in. i think the buck stops with Captain Janeway there.
Red D: That could be fair.
Jamie: We should all take a moment to consider that even those in command are fallible.
Red D: That's a fair pushback.
Jamie: I think we should take a moment silence to consider that.
Red D: Oh, Jenny, I was saw you taking a picture and i was like, what's happening? Oh, kidsy.
Jamie: Aww.
Jen: I'm just texting Leo bothering me while he's podcasting, because he's adorable.
Jamie: oh Aww. He misses my voice. and Oh days.
Jen: He's doing a lot of hilarious things behind the screen.
Jamie: Aww.
Jen: Just cat play, but you know, adorable.
Red D: Anna Jonak- like it's it's mostly very frustrating for you because it's not this is not a video podcast but you have you seen those like videos of like when people try to record themselves and the cat just walks in front of like the camera like I am a I'm like the highlight now kind of thing it's pretty funny.
Jamie: yeah
Jen: I'm having the opposite problem. He's doing all his hilarious cat stuff, not on the screen. And I want to you guys to see it, but he's
Jamie: well in which case we're gonna when we may not see it we're gonna take advantage of it jenny give us your next point while leo is distracting unless red you hadn't finished yours about how annoying you find uh neelix which is the captain's fault for not making him feel valued but um yes
Red D: Jonak-
Red D: No, I'm done. Done.
Jen: Well, I have a point which I saw was on Red's list as well. i So I'm just going to steal it. Oh, good.
Red D: Oh, yes.
Jen: Yeah, I think we're both quite excited about the first sighting of Vorik.
Red D: Oh, yes. Yeah, I was because i remember his episode well.
Jen: Yeah, like, so he's not, he's not like a main character. He's not the most exciting character, but he is in that episode, which I kind of love and think is hilarious, which is coming later, where, know,
Jamie: What does he do?
Jen: There's just this whole situation, which I won't spoil it for you, Jamie, but it's hilarious. It involves ponfar. I'll just say that.
Jamie: Yeah, I know what that is.
Red D: I do love it when they start to, I don't know how it works actually. um And I don't know if it's like, did they just have this scene with this actor and then think, oh, he handled it well.
Red D: Then maybe there's like another little scene with him and they're like, okay okay, now we're going to give him a bulkier storyline.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Or have they already decided that and now they're just starting to plant him in like so that he's not a total stranger when we like have that kind of big episode with him. I'm curious how that works.
Jen: I would love to know the answer to that. Yeah, I because I don't know that i could guess that i don't think it's immediately obvious.
Red D: No, it's not immediately obvious, but you're like, oh, okay, this is someone going to see. You can kind of start to tell like that someone's been introduced almost for a purpose. I don't know. or maybe it's just from rewatching.
Jen: Yeah, maybe. Yeah.
Red D: And then you're like, oh, they're cropping up more and more. and then Yeah, of course.
Jamie: sort of difficult to drop someone completely random in to be an absolute mainstream character from this episode.
Red D: Yeah. But I'm just wondering what drives it. Whether they had really thought of that episode and then they plant these scenes or they're like, oh, this actor's doing a great job. Let's give him him like an interesting episode. Huh.
Jamie: I sort of feel like Neelix was not originally, I mean I may have seen this when I ah researched Ethan Phillips for this, um I'm not going to admit to actually doing research for an episode, but there might there may be a case for saying that that happened with Neelix as he wasn't originally necessarily intended to be there for as long as he was.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Red D: ah
Jamie: But he did and became popular, so they just sort of wrote his part bigger, as it were.
Red D: Oh, interesting.
Jamie: and And I think that there's there's something there about belonging that probably parallels with with my next point, because i I sort of was thinking about this, and the way that Neelix sees the crew at the start as he's desperate to find something that he can bring to it...
Jen: Thank you.
Jamie: that makes me think that this episode is really about belonging and the ultimate failure of a meritocracy or perceived meritocracy if it's devoid of a human heart and is totally about the mechanics of zero-sum economic slash utility inclusion versus disclusion systems Because the whole dynamic that sends Neelix down the path of the stupid, and and the only one allowed to call him stupid for this episode, um is his perception that he doesn't know he doesn't have anything to offer, so of course he'll be kicked off the ship, which is ultimately of a very stark and extreme...
Jen: that's cool. guess that's good. think
Jen: that's good. think that's good.
Jamie: deployment of a meritocratic system, if that makes any sense, without any sort of heart or value for the person as opposed to what they do. um And I just sort of think that that rather parallels your point, Red.
Jamie: So I wanted to sort of throw it in there.
Jen: It's
Jamie: um Yeah.
Jen: an interesting one because um you know in the one sense if the voyager was in the alpha quadrant and just functioning as a starship it it it kind of would be just a case of not serving you're not performing you're not serving your function then you you would be let go for whatever but word but obviously it's very different now they're in the delta quadrant and she even refers to it as a family and it's a community um relying on each other so it's not just about what you can you know black and white give in terms of your role um
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: hmm hmm
Jen: But it's an interesting one because even if they are in the Alpha Quadrant, like the whole star, um they do talk a lot, even in that scenario, about the crew being a family and relying on each other and being more than just a workplace, I guess. um But then, I don't know, how can it be if, you know, you'll lose your job if you're not performing? I don't know.
Jen: if
Red D: Yeah, mean, I was very flippant earlier when I said, Neelux, they would never kick him off. But then as you were describing this his situation, I was like, yeah, mean, Kez has her place.
Red D: like in the sickbay and they could have dropped him off at that trade station. That would have been like a perfect fit. and And I think maybe because we didn't have a scene where him and Kez officially broke up, I was also like, why would he be kicked off? He's, you know, like there's still that.
Red D: But if they're not together, then there's really no reason for anyone to feel like they should keep him.
Jamie: Exactly.
Red D: So
Jamie: I mean, if this was a Ferengi ship, he'd have been sold for, you know, gloves.
Red D: So maybe I was just a bit too dismissive. It's like, I like Neelix.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Of course, they're not going kick it off, but that's not really how.
Jamie: Hey, don't you marginalise his fears.
Jen: There's a real demo in joining the connections with these weeks, so I think it's looking out for him, and know you have behaved, hastily, hastily.
Jamie: There's a real dynamic there driving him to the actions that he takes. Sorry, again, sticking up for him. i know. i hate it. hate it. hate it
Red D: I'm kind of enjoying it.
Jen: That's not what you're saying. I don't know.
Jamie: and um I'll have to go harder.
Jen: I'll have to get a hold of
Jamie: Yeah. yeah Jenny, over to you, I think.
Jen: Is it? Did we do red already? my gosh.
Jamie: Yes, we did. Nice segwayed off red.
Jen: Zooming through. Okay. So really minor thing, but I also, I feel like maybe this is on Red's list too. I haven't seen on there, but I imagine you have an appreciation for this one word that was spoken red by Chakotay when he's saying no to the drug pusher.
Jamie: Mm-hmm.
Jamie: Mm-hmm.
Jen: And he's already, they've already said no once. Like, no, thank you. We don't want those weird blue drugs. um And then the guy says, oh, but blah, blah, blah, blah. Chakotay looks at him don and says, no.
Jen: And then, you know, he turns tail. I just get the feeling from that. I think it's like a character development backstory that he knows how to say no to that kind of thing. You know, he's had to say this before.
Red D: Yeah, he was he was very firm.
Jamie: this assistant
Jen: He's, yeah, very firm.
Jamie: this
Jen: He's well versed. I think that's part the backstory.
Jamie: Maybe he worried that Tom was a flight risk.
Red D: did enjoy that scene. Oh yeah, sorry. For some reason, I did enjoy that scene. I think a lot of it has to do with how to, like, you know, that that conversation was played and that very firm, yeah, that got the guy to back off.
Jamie: That is exactly how he said it.
Jen: And quite, you know, it's it's quite, they were reasonably, you know, just quite friendly and polite the first time, but once it's having to say no a second time, then, you know, it's a bit more, substantially more assertive.
Jamie: Not sure.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Not sure.
Jen: yeah Basically, I'm taking lessons in how to say no from Chakotay.
Red D: Much more sensitive. I enjoyed it.
Red D: You know what I was thinking?
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: I was thinking i should rewatch Star Trek. Just take all the sentences that I really like that people say and only use them in real life. You know, like when they're like being very firm, but kind, very firm, but drawing a boundary, very firm, but standing up for themselves, all these things.
Red D: I guess a lot of them have to do with being firm.
Jamie: yeah
Red D: um
Jamie: yeah
Red D: But I,
Jen: was a great one and also the one where Tom
Jamie: Help me, I love, I use i use Catherine Janeway's phrase, help me to understand that quite a lot.
Red D: Oh yes, that one I remember. That one I remember.
Jen: that was a great one and also the one where tom sort of admits that he was doing something that would have seemed like gaslighting from the perspective of the girl he was talking to and, you know, appreciates that and then is just clear, look, I'm not going to lie to you, but I can't tell you.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Yes, yes.
Jen: And the reasons are, you know, noble.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: A trajectory
Red D: I just feel like my life would go on a different trajectory if I just only used slides from software to communicate.
Jen: to
Jen: a trajectory to The lunatic
Red D: The moon. No, I think like to the top. Yeah,
Jen: asylum?
Jen: Depending on how you use them, it could go either way.
Red D: ah yeah I just think it would be improvement on my normal speaking. Anyway. um Is it my turn? I think it is.
Red D: What is... Am I jumping again?
Jamie: Yeah, go for it. Yeah, I think it is.
Red D: Yeah, I think maybe. Yeah. So Wixiban. Wixiban?
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Wix? Wixiban. Chakotay's Talaxian friend that he runs into on the trade station made me...
Jamie: Hmm. Chakotas?
Red D: Huh?
Jamie: Did you say Chakotas?
Jen: I could just answer your question.
Red D: No, I think I said Neelix.
Jamie: Deluxe.
Jen: I think it's easy, right?
Jamie: Did you?
Jen: It's your question.
Jamie: I thought you said Chakotas.
Red D: We can always record and listen back.
Jen: I'll answer your question.
Red D: But I meant Neelix.
Jamie: Okay.
Red D: So...
Jamie: Cool.
Red D: um So it made me think if you have, and yesterday I did literally run into a friend ah in London on Regent Street, which I think is pretty unusual.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: But I was like, that's a pretty crazy running into someone story. And I was wondering, do you guys have any crazy running into someone, you know, in a totally unexpected place, different country? Okay, we did all go to the pub and that person arrived. So that is, but that does sound is not so crazy. Do you have any stories like that?
Jamie: Oh
Jen: Do you know, i think Jay and I did meet someone abroad in a country once, but I just can't remember who it was, and it was really random.
Jamie: shit, yeah, it rings a bell.
Jen: We just... um
Red D: Well, I could share my story in the meantime, which only, oh, just came back to me actually. But I went on a blind date in London that was set up by my housemate, a guy from New Zealand.
Jamie: Oh,
Jamie: lovely.
Red D: He set me up with his friend. We went on a blind date and I ran into three people that I know on this blind date. The restaurant that we went to had a crowd of like South Africans. And one of them was my old Cox from rowing ah so at UCT.
Red D: He was in the restaurant.
Jamie: Wasn't that your...
Red D: Then we ran into my friend's brother on the tube, which was crazy.
Jen: And the question.
Red D: And then I think there was a third one. And um we never had another date because he must've thought, what the hell is going on? Like, why does she know so many people?
Jamie: This woman owns London. yeah
Red D: Like, it was so bizarre. it like, never happened to me before. Never happened to me again.
Jamie: Why would that mean you didn't go on another date?
Red D: But no, I mean, maybe there were other reasons, but like, we went like,
Jamie: I'd love that. It's fine. You never called him back. Yeah,
Red D: We like met in Soho. It's not like we met in like Clapham Junction or something where you could say like, okay, there's a lot of, or Earlsfield or something like, but there's a lot of South Africans.
Jamie: it's true.
Red D: I don't know.
Jamie: South Africans don't go into Copper Garden.
Jen: Or just a little of village. Yeah, a yeah's in the middle nowhere where everyone just lives.
Red D: Yeah. It's not like we met in Cape Town, like where I'm from, like, you know
Jen: Oh my goodness.
Jamie: potato potato that's fair
Jen: That was the kind of thing that would happen, be completely normal. In fact, weird if it didn't happen back when we were at uni up north.
Jamie: in darm yeah yeah yeah
Red D: Yes.
Jen: Because, you know, you can't step out the house without seeing somebody, you know, that kind of community.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: But in London, that is just unheard of. Yeah.
Red D: so bizarre
Jen: Fuck us up. um I did think of one. um Yeah, this was it. I love I have a good one of those. um Jamie and I are going down down to a pub in London, and happening upon a friend of mine who I went to university ah with up in the north of the country.
Jen: So it was completely random. And she was on a first date with the guy a then she ended up marrying him and children with him.
Red D: oh my god sorry wait okay
Jen: And we Like basically it effectively crashed their first date because we want we know we went but went over and said hi and she said, oh no, please do join. And obviously we said, no, no, we won't. But he insisted too. So we ended up sitting with them.
Jen: and
Jamie: Oh, was that ah the ones who currently live in Canada?
Jen: Yeah, they immigrated to Canada.
Jamie: Yeah, yeah,
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: That is so funny because it is a common point.
Jamie: It's an extreme reaction to meeting us in the pub, I agree.
Red D: No, like I was on a first date. She was on a first date. Is there some kind of weird first date curse where you bump into people that you know?
Jamie: Yes. Yes. It takes a few dates until you get into the swing of avoiding folk video. Otherwise you just go where you'd normally go and then there are people you'd normally bump into there. Whereas, you know, once you've been dating a while you'd sort of get the feel for, you know people of Asian.
Red D: I find that very interesting. o
Jen: It was rather lovely though that they ended up together and married with two kids because now looking back we remember fondly their first date.
Jamie: Right.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. I mean, they ran into us extremely drunk and some ribald comments may have been made.
Jamie: mean, Jenny, I'll never forgive you for saying those things.
Red D: Yeah, that is nice.
Jamie: um Right, on to my next point, which is, I think that the morally compromised good person black first blackmail dynamic ah comes to play in this episode.
Red D: Yeah? yep
Jamie: And I do sort of...
Jen: and we're doing
Jamie: enjoy the way that end the cycle of will we ever be free goes. Neelix does one bad thing and then tries to break away from Wix and Wixaband then says, ah, but what if I tell you your crewmates? he gets, you know, blackmailed doing another bad thing and then it sort of doubles up and doubles up and doubles up.
Jamie: And I do find that quite an interesting dynamic that probably sort of contributes to Neelix's understanding of
Jen: some interesting dynamic.
Jamie: Tom's take on something which actually is Jenny's point so i'll sort of segue to you.
Jen: again sort of sewily Oh, is it my turn again?
Jamie: Yes, yes.
Jen: Yes, yes. Oh, yes, it does. I was just thinking that does link very nicely with my next thought about this. um Yeah, he basically repeats what Tom did.
Jen: He asked Tom earlier in the episode what got him into trouble. And Tom, very eloquently, I thought, says, you know, I think it all started from not telling truth to begin with, and then it it was one thing after another, and it just snowballed.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Then Neelix basically listens to that, thinks about it, and then just repeats what Tom did with the story.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: But I also just love the scene, because I love the way Tom's so um thoughtful about it. He says, I've given a lot of thought about it, about what got me into trouble in the first place. It's sign of growth from Tom Paris.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: It's lovely.
Jamie: Well, I don't think apart from the bit where he's deliberately told sabotage his relationship with everyone and be a jerk to Chakotay and get himself kicked off the ship, don't think there's ever a point actually where he's being a total jackass apart from, you know, a few too many visits to Chez Sandrine than, strictly speaking, healthy.
Jen: Jamie, are you forgetting why he's on board?
Jamie: Okay, he was in prison. Lots of people have been in prison.
Jen: i think I was alluding to, is when he, that what he was in prison for, basically.
Red D: But he gave a...
Jamie: Oh, what was he in prison for?
Jen: um Well, actually, is this, the the reason I know this, is, I think it comes from another episode, or another series, does it, Red?
Jamie: Did he sleep with the Admiral's daughter?
Jamie: And wife?
Jen: Do you remember?
Red D: There is a character, he played a character in Deep Space Nine. Is it Deep Space Nine? Who is a bit, but there different characters, but that character is a fly by night, take his chance, break the rules kind of guy, I think, if I'm remembering correctly.
Jen: Yeah, yeah. I didn't know if it was like a direct crossover if it's just a sort of... Anyway, well, whatever it is, Tom is in prison for something and he's a bit of a...
Jamie: Yeah, I know that tough guy.
Jen: When Janeway picks him up from to serve on War Boyajah, it basically alludes to, I think, that he was a bit of a mercenary. He just, you know...
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: Well, I think when she says that to him, he's probably a bit like, that's your opinion of me.
Jen: Well, I think once you've spent it, he's probably like once you're a pretty person actually being in
Jamie: Screw you about it, as opposed to it actually being him.
Jen: But
Jamie: It feels more like others have put him in a box in that way, as opposed to that really being him.
Red D: He was convicted and imprisoned at twenty twenty in the 24th century. I think he was guilty of something.
Jamie: Victimless crimes, Red. Victimless crimes.
Red D: But he does redeem himself. And I agree here. I think he explains very well. He's like, I made a mistake. But instead of just being honest about it it's like everything he someone does to cover up their mistake or not ask for help or
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: That description does tie in with other the other series, doesn't it, nicely?
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Because in that, he they do some kind of illegal flight maneuver while they're piloting these, and don't know, jets. And um someone ends up dying.
Jen: But it was a mistake. But then what happens is he convinces everyone to lie about it so that no one will get in trouble.
Red D: Yes.
Jen: And then they get found out. Yeah. So it does tie in. That's fair.
Red D: That's very...
Jamie: I mean there's an interesting yeah
Red D: That's true.
Jen: That's true. Let me try again.
Red D: So I'm getting a lot of echo, but...
Jen: I see you're putting my headphones on.
Red D: So I can't talk.
Jen: Yeah. Oh, wait.
Red D: But... um Let me try again.
Jen: There might be any case there, Jen.
Red D: I see putting your headphones on.
Jen: Okay.
Red D: So let's... Oh, wait.
Jamie: there might be echoes there, Jen how about now?
Jen: yeah is that john
Red D: Okay.
Jen: okay
Red D: Oh. Not sure. and That's better. Thank you.
Jamie: Oh my gosh, yes, that's so much better. How are you generating an echo with your own screen?
Red D: Yeah, thank you.
Jen: Sorry.
Red D: Technology. um Oh, what was I gonna say? But yes, that that I can't believe you remember that. That's brilliant, Jenny. But that is what happened. But but yes, it does seem to be like there's, don't want to say there's two types of people in the world, but there's a type of person that's like, never wants to hear anything bad. So when they hear stuff that's bad, they shut the people saying bad stuff down, instead of figuring out oh wait, how do we improve? Make sure this doesn't happen but again. And that's, I think, from the same impulse of like just not being able to be honest that you made a mistake, right?
Red D: And go to someone and and get help and be like, because it's hard to live with the fact that maybe your recklessness in that case of this episode led to someone's death.
Jen: Yeah. no
Jamie: I
Red D: So you'd rather just be like, no, never talk about it again or pretend it didn't happen. but But that makes it worse.
Jamie: i agree with the point about self-honesty, disagree with the point about just sort of anytime someone comes to you saying you made a mistake assuming that's the case.
Red D: No, no, I'm not talking about like, obviously, this is like there's a like a scale between my personal feedback, which you have to be discerning about and like institutions which are supposed to be run in a certain way. And then sometimes i mean you see this throughout history throughout countries.
Red D: I'm not picking anyone in particular, like, Oh, I don't want to hear about that. so I'm going to shut down what people can say about me, instead of like fixing the institution, right?
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: I think that just comes from the same, the same place.
Jen: I just think it's yeah I mean for me it's just um someone who's capable of self-reflection and whether they decide to take on board that criticism or reject it as um you know not relevant because it's coming from a biased place or some other reason but the fact that he's capable of that self-reflection um is I think a a really virtuous quality that I wish everyone had
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Yes, yes.
Jamie: I agree. Because I agree so strongly, I would like to talk about the qualities of someone who very clearly appears not to have that a as my next one, which I want to talk about the the station manager and about how trusting he is about just taking Wix von's statement, I fired in self-defense at face value in a murder investigation, doesn't question it at all, or even like...
Jamie: Alright, so that's okay because he fired in self-defence with absolutely no evidence that was the case and immediately offers him a potential pardon for going and trying to bust the other criminals on the station. I'd just like to suggest that he could do with some self-reflection about the lack of probity of his criminal justice dealings.
Jen: That is not how I viewed that at all.
Red D: yeah think
Jen: Interesting take.
Red D: How did you view it Jenny?
Jamie: That's how I thought the manager behaved.
Red D: Because I barely remember that bit so now I have nothing to contribute to.
Jen: um but my My take on it was Wicks and Neelix came and admitted what they'd done.
Red D: bee in some
Red D: Ah, yes.
Jen: And it it really didn't matter whether it was self-defense or not. The station manager was saying, right, well, 50 years of whatever it is, hard labor or prison for you. So he definitely wasn't letting go. But then they offered him basically a trade.
Jen: They're saying, tell you what give us our freedom and we'll do this for you we'll get rid of these criminals which are causing you loads of problems
Jamie: So he's he's basically okay with letting someone off with murder then.
Jen: no he's not okay with it but he's bargained he's yeah he's far more concerned with the you know hardened criminals that are causing murders every day and stealing thousands and profits every day from him
Red D: He got something in value, but in return...
Jamie: opposed to the actual murders.
Red D: Have you not watched Lord Order? ah They make deals every day.
Jamie: i broken Broken window theory! you have You have to stamp on every single crime.
Red D: You want the bigger criminal, so you.
Jamie: No, you've got to hold the line of the law as though it was the lower the wall of the city.
Jen: Yeah, I mean,
Jamie: The Miles Cameron line.
Jen: come on, Jamie. This is the reason why Peralta in, what's it called? What's it called?
Red D: Brooklyn Nine-Nine.
Jamie: Brooklyn Nine-Nine.
Jen: brook Brooklyn Nine-Nine, thank you, is constantly letting having to let the Pontiac Bandit go because he's constantly doing deals.
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: Yeah, have but the Pontiac Bandit didn't murder someone.
Red D: What a great... That's true, and he was very charming.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: But that is a great comparison.
Jamie: Yeah. And he was a great crooner and horny all the time, according to Rosa.
Red D: Yes.
Red D: Yes, all his songs that he sang about smooshing. oh
Jamie: Smush, smush, smush.
Jen: He's such a great character.
Jamie: Yeah. Red, get us get us back to Star Trek and away from the Pontiac Bandit smushing.
Red D: He's so good. Okay, I'm going to try it, but I don't know what...
Jamie: Or I'll just sing his smush song until you do.
Jen: Quick, red for the love of God.
Red D: Okay, I will say that I think Neelix was a little naive.
Jamie: songs about smushing, songs about smushing horror.
Red D: when his Wixie Bun was like, we can be in and out of there in just a few minutes. This sounds like something someone planning a heist would say, not someone planning a trade who would say.
Jamie: yes yes
Red D: I just, obviously that's, I guess, to like alert us, the viewer, to something that's not quite right maybe, but um yeah, Wixie Bun, the dynamic was interesting, and I have no idea if i'm pronouncing it right, because if for some reason, sorry, I'm a bit sick, but I wrote down the name, but forgot how they pronounced it in the episode, but
Jamie: just go with wix yeah they did loads of times they used the diminutive
Jen: Yeah, Wix.
Red D: but But they never called on Wix, I don't think.
Red D: Ah,
Jen: I thought they used it more than his full name, but maybe I'm not.
Red D: Okay. Okay.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Again, I have a cold, so could have gone over my head. um But yeah, this, like, now, as you alluded to already earlier, but there's, like, Neelix getting sucked in, and then Wix just having an answer for everything that did sound reasonable on the surface, I guess, if he didn't probe too deeply.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: um But he just always sounded reasonable, always sounded like he was just trying to do his best, always sounded like he was kind of honorable, but he was actually the worst.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: I mean, he wasn't a good friend or acquaintance.
Jamie: Yeah, I mean, he...
Red D: and But I just thought they portrayed him, like, I guess, well, because you... he's not an obvious, like nemesis or, you know, criminal or anything.
Red D: And, and if you have a family member like that, let's say or something who always I mean, not that they criminal, but they like, you constantly helping them because they always sound like, Oh, yeah, this thing happened, that thing happened, and all sounds reasonable.
Jamie: yeah i mean he
Red D: But like 10 years later, like, wait, why am I so supporting this person like, I just that kind of context, I guess, or something.
Jen: good Yeah.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah, I do see that.
Jen: He's an interesting character. I mean, I saw it by the end, like i I did still see him as generally more on the side of ah good guy, you know, like he's obviously not a guy who you can trust.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: He's a petty criminal.
Jen: Yeah, he's not very trustworthy, but he still has that, like, I guess, criminal loyalty, um I think, to Neelix.
Red D: Like, yeah.
Jen: um
Red D: Yes, he did stick with his friend.
Jamie: Yeah, I mean, I just find it, like, really, really weird that Neelix didn't... A, wasn't eaten alive by him when they were both smugglers way back in the day, which apparently they were, like, both criminals, and B, didn't remember how much of a snake Wix was, given how easily he seems to wrap him around his little finger in time of desperation.
Red D: I think that's hard. Yeah, Jenny.
Jen: That's because Neelix has changed, as he said.
Red D: Yes.
Jen: He's, you know, when you first met Neelix in that opening pilot, he's a very different character. Like, he's completely different personality.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: I think he's just become, you know, more principled over these years.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And now he's sort of, unfortunately, a bit more prone to getting taken advantage of. That's the unfortunate side effect of becoming a bit more morally virtuous.
Red D: yes
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Yeah,
Red D: Yeah, that's a good point.
Jamie: I don't know.
Red D: Also, I think it must be very hard. I've never been in a part of a criminal gang. I guess being part of corporate world is a bit similar, actually, though. But like, I can't, I can't hold in my mind to conflicting ideas about someone, you know, either I'm just gonna have to trust them or not trust them.
Jamie: Really?
Red D: But I can't be working.
Jamie: You've never heard the... Sorry, go through
Red D: I can't be working like If you either must just not deal with them at all, or I'm going to deal with them, I am going to constantly give them the benefit of the doubt, I guess. and You know, like, I don't mean, maybe that's very too blank a statement, but but um like Neelix should said, no, I'm not, not if I was Neelix, would have said, either said no to the deal or land up being a criminal.
Jamie: Binary, yeah
Red D: Because I would have thought we are friends.
Jen: good
Red D: And I'm assuming because I would not let that guy down, he's not going let me down or lead me into something.
Jamie: you Have you never had a friend who... I like the guy, but my goodness is he a liability like slash don't let myself um get exposed due to my relationship with this individual.
Red D: Yeah, that's true.
Red D: oh
Jamie: If you dare say it to me I'm going to be so angry with you, but anyway.
Red D: I don't think so. Because I very specific I'm sure Jamie doesn't have a friend like that.
Jen: Yeah, I am a bit more like you, Red, I think. I was thinking that that situation happens a lot in a work context for me, but that's something you can't do anything about, whereas you do, well, I do, hopefully, choose to an extent, my friends, you know, you're not and you're not so forced into interactions in the same way you are in the working world.
Red D: Yeah.
Red D: Yeah.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: um So I didn't think I've ever really, like I can, this discussion is reminding me of various people I knew when I was younger, um I say one that I knew it because I knew them and then i didn't we didn't become friends, you know, like i just it just wouldn't have happened if there was someone who kept, you know, being unreliable and untrustworthy and trying to get me into scrapes.
Red D: you don't know them at all. Yeah.
Jamie: o
Jen: I don't know if that's a conscious thing.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: I just, I don't know, I guess lean away from the people like that.
Jamie: I mean, but you must have had... You must have had people who you liked just for how you interacted with them, but you were like, F me, never let them in the house or something like that.
Jen: trying to I'm gonna think about it because I can't think of anyone right now, but I wonder if there is. it It does remind me of a, it reminds me of a discussion I had with, interestingly enough, yeah, this was all men, when I was a teenager with a couple of male friends who were very nice, who I liked.
Jamie: Maybe that's more of a lad thing. if
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And I had, they had brought me into contact with the third, um call him John.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: um And i as I got to know this third person, I realized that he was just the worst. um in in many ways, um very you know shoplifter, um or you know drugs and causing all kinds of problems at school for everyone, you know quite selfish, um didn't really care how his actions affected others, all these things.
Jamie: Yep. Yep.
Red D: okay
Jamie: Yep. This sounds like it. Yep. Yep.
Jen: Anyway, and but this was the thing, they were friends with him and all of that social group that I knew were we're friends with him and they had been for years. and you know, they were saying, I think he'd done something particularly awful and um possibly possibly targeted at me because he liked to pick on people, you know.
Red D: Oh.
Jamie: Oh shit.
Jen: um And, oh, no, it wasn't anything. It was just a minor comment.
Jamie: Still.
Jen: But I was just like, you know, I was just like, well, you know, bugger off, you know, I can't be dealing with you.
Red D: What else? Yeah.
Jen: um and i And then one of the, they were sort I guess, saying something, you know, empathizing in some way. And I was like, oh, don't worry about it. But I am curious as to, you know, that he behaves like that to everyone. It's not just me.
Jen: um Why do you put up with it? um Because I was genuinely curious. And they just, yeah, it was just a bit of an eye opening moment for me because i I realized that possibly I was, well, yeah, they were sort of, they just,
Jamie: church Shared history.
Jamie: He's been our mate for a long time and we've put up with
Jen: Yeah, yeah. And they just, they just put up with it. Just, he is who he is. He's not going to change. And that all makes sense. But my reaction to that would be to just focus my relationships elsewhere.
Jen: Um,
Jamie: Yeah, but I think that just being able to move straight away and cut ties in that way, i think that's quite unusual.
Jen: Yeah, that's what I realized in this conversation, that that was not um that common.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: I was like, oh goodness, maybe this is something I should work on, you know, being a bit more tolerant.
Jamie: No.
Jen: I don't know, but not if someone's going to treat you badly.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: So I don't know.
Jamie: Well, there's always that tolerance be...
Jen: It's a gray area, isn't it?
Red D: That's interesting. I wonder if there's a gender difference, but I'm just trying to think because, yeah, I don't think I really have anything to contribute.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: I think I'm like a, I say like a more like a slow, I don't make instant friendships, but i when I make friendships, they tend to last, I guess. I don't know if it's just because I'm more cautious or discerning, or I can only relate to and resonate with certain kind of people.
Jamie: What?
Red D: um i enjoy a lot of different kind of people, but 99% of them, not 99, that's an exaggeration, but like I know that I wouldn't be able to have a proper friendship with most of them because they will have friendships with other types of people. Like that's just, you know, that's that's not like a bad thing.
Red D: I just mean like, you know, people who are only talking at the surface level or only whatever that's just not someone going to be friends with for for like a long time but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy hanging out with them if they're part of like a broader social group or something I'm kind of getting a bit too detailed but I'm just curious if there's more if that's like a like a woman thing a friendship of thing or thing or if that's across the divide I don't know i don't really have anything to contribute to this but
Jamie: Humans are infinitely varied in how and why they decide to bond. Yeah.
Jen: I also wonder with, I know what you mean about the difference between friends that you talk to in depth um about your thoughts and ideas and concepts and feelings and then friends or just people you know who are quite surface.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: I often wonder though if those people who appear only wanting to talk about surface things if that's just a connection thing and that in fact with people who they feel comfortable or intimate terms with
Red D: Yeah, I'm not saying they can't, but we can't.
Jamie: yeah
Red D: Like me and them, that person can't. They might have friends that they can do that with, right?
Jen: oh i see yeah because there's no sort connection like chemistry that yeah
Red D: Like that's what I'm saying.
Jamie: i think but I think actually one of one of the great things that advancing age gives is a a realisation I was talking about my own advancing age thank you very much um is the ability to understand that
Red D: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Red D: Excuse me.
Red D: I do not like how that wood but that phrase made me feel, and we shall burn it from all future podcasts recorders. yeah a
Jamie: Due to advancing wisdom on my part, um I think one of the gifts it gives is an understanding that the languages in which people say, i like you, are incredibly varied.
Red D: Yes, better.
Jamie: And some, will by connect by talking on that deeper level about deeper things, others will do it, know as you say, in that surface level.
Jamie: I think as long as you can realise that in moment, that gives you grounds for friendship? I don't know.
Red D: Yeah, I mean, I'm not, sorry, I'm not saying some people, no, no, no, but, and I do want to clarify.
Jamie: That's not a pop at you by the way, that's just a... I probably think I'm friends with people who hate me, so don't worry about it.
Red D: No, no, no.
Jen: Maybe.
Red D: And it's interesting, because we we wrote with people in the past, and there are people that really struggled to, let's say, relate to. But some of those people are still really close friends 10 years later, so they must really relate to each other.
Red D: Like, I have to, you know, they can't just be going away on holiday together and bantering for four days straight. don't know. There must be something more than that.
Jen: maybe maybe i
Jamie: try to stop me.
Red D: So it's, ah But, um, yeah, sorry, i think I have to be really diverged, but can't remember what the original point was.
Jen: Fascinating topic though
Red D: But,
Jamie: Wix has an answer for everything. Jenny?
Red D: oh, yeah, oh, yes, being led astray by your friends.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Oh, yeah, and then, like, have I had, I think I have had friends who led other people astray, they just did not bother to lead me astray, because knew that would be completely pointless.
Jen: though.
Jamie: Well, we've certainly led this conversation straight. Sorry, how could I couldn't resist it.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: Oh dear, and yet tequila was had on so many birthdays.
Red D: so
Red D: That's true. That's true.
Jamie: Yeah, Jenny, go for it.
Jen: Alright, last point. So, I just have to say, are medical supplies in quotes, air quotes, the ageold
Jamie: since this isn't
Red D: I really thought they were medical supplies.
Jen: the age-old medical supplies? well this is And this is my point. This is the problem. And it comes up in several episodes. It's that, what is genuine medical need? And what is some weird underhand black market drug trade?
Jamie: since
Jen: And it really is a fine line. And there's so many drugs that are both and
Red D: Yes, that's true.
Jen: Yeah, and this.
Jamie: It's... It's really interesting actually, someone has written underneath your notes to that effect.
Jen: o
Jen: What have you written?
Jamie: Yeah, that was my excuse the last time I was run out of the Deep Space Nine for dealing crack to Benjamin Sisko, which I think we can all get behind as a sentiment.
Red D: Is that what that was about?
Jamie: But yes, I i think both point in the same direction, don't you?
Jen: Absolutely.
Red D: You know, I realized how naive I am that I actually thought that guy had medical supplies. I knew his deal was dodgy. I just thought they were legitimate medical supplies because that can be like contraband.
Red D: even after the ah Even after they set up the whole...
Jen: Oh absolutely.
Jamie: It was my excuse on Deep Space Nine, Red. It was my excuse on Deep Space Nine. This guy has written down on Jenny's comment.
Red D: Even though they set up the whole drug story with that attempted drug deal in the market. I mean, that is how dumb I am.
Jen: I'm not sure that I knew. i don't I don't know that it crossed my mind either.
Jamie: Yep.
Jen: It's just more that later on we find out that what he calls medical supplies are in fact you know this.
Red D: Yes. Okay, so it wasn't, I thought, I got the impression you guys knew straight away that he was dealing with drugs.
Jamie: Yep. I mean...
Jen: I don't
Jamie: so Some of us Deep Space Nine vets know this sort of a situation inside out.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: I don't know when I became Odo, but yeah.
Red D: ah
Jamie: can i ah Can I, on that drug-related theme, go to my last point, um which is i would like to discuss the fact that Neelix is involved in a drug-related murder blowing up half a space station and gets off with two weeks of scrubbing.
Red D: Yes. I have to agree.
Jamie: can we Can we engage with that a little bit?
Red D: I have to agree.
Jamie: Because, like again, i feel like ah HR should be taking a closer interest in the welfare of its crew, both from the perspective of exposure to crime and or also exposure to Neelix's engineering skills.
Red D: also...
Jamie: like Does anyone else feel discomfort that the bits of the ship's crew at the start that he's trying to investigate as potential avenues for his quote-unquote talents are security and plasma engineering?
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: Did no one else feel a friction of fear go up their neck as that happened?
Red D: Well, I guess I was reacting, so I'm going to carry on reacting. But, I mean, take it to the account, taking also taking into account how many times he did not confess when he had the opportunity to. Like, when they're in the the briefing room, whatever it is, and Tuvok is describing that they picked up the laser, whatever, and he's all looking uncomfortable. I'm like, how can he not just blot out what he really managed to, like, not say anything? like um And if I was Janeway, and I had reflected back on that meeting and realized he could have said something and didn't i'd be really mad
Jen: I also am quite shocked that Tuvok can't tell when Neelix is hiding something because even interviews with Neelix and
Jamie: Yeah, and Neelix is really weird.
Red D: yes yes but that does remind me about something which was like someone who was i guess saying like i can't police tell when people are lying it's like No, there's no magic like lying.
Jamie: Yeah, his new stenography.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: mean, there is a lie detective, but that's besides the point.
Jamie: That doesn't work particularly well though.
Red D: So I thought he...
Jen: yeah
Red D: I mean, there's a part of me that understands because he's a good at heart character, right? like And Janeway feels like she's...
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: I get the impression she already feels like bad that she's punishing him at all. Like, when she has that little smile to herself, like, okay, yes, I had to do that to keep it...
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: I don't know, interpret that as...
Jamie: Can't have him going and setting up drug-related murders on every space station.
Red D: Yes, but that was quite, again, quite a big thing that he was involved it So I feel a bit mixed.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Sorry, Jenny.
Jen: it it It is a bit wild. It's a really good point. Yeah, that hadn't really occurred to me. Two weeks of scrubbing. I guess maybe she feels his punishment has already been had because he basically hacked to barter his freedom with the station owner by possibly blowing himself up.
Jen: But I don't think that's necessarily a good punishment.
Red D: That's true. He did put his life on the line.
Jamie: i think I think that's just him being silly and she should have come down on him all the harder.
Jen: Well, yeah, I mean, if anything, that's in a way worse, isn't it? She's basic's basically gone in and
Jamie: Endangered hundreds of people.
Jen: endangered load of people and um threatened to blow himself and others up even if they were criminals that's not really in keeping with the starfleet protocol
Jamie: and And he did it with substandard plasma, which I think is the final insult.
Jen: but not voyager plasma that was his you know
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Eh, contaminated plasma, yeah, that's true. Red, I think you're the only one of us with any points remaining.
Red D: Yeah, sorry, I think I might move some to my stop there. But right, well, I guess kind of related to what you're saying, I mean, Jenny, know you said this when you mentioned um the Miles Cameron books and how the howard trade point was, you know, resonated better with that background, but the whole setup of this Be like being a member of a crew, finding yourself in a bit of like a legal trouble a foreign place, then having to set up a trap to capture the criminals reminded me a lot of and NCIS, which I've been watching recently.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm. this is
Red D: I don't know if you've ever watched NCIS, but it was a strong, honestly, you could have just taken an episode of NCIS and just change the character names. And it also been quite similar, like change that to Star Trek things.
Jen: Ooh, maybe I have to try NCIS. Add that to my watch list.
Red D: Oh, okay. It's, I mean, yeah, now it's 20 years old, I guess, but I mean, it's still running.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Perfect!
Red D: 22 seasons, its start of season one, but criminal, maybe criminal investigative services.
Jen: exactly That's That is the perfect vintage for me, Red.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: That's what reminded
Jen: About 20 years old is the stuff I like.
Red D: me. Yeah, give it a give it a go
Jen: just clarify i'm talking about tv issues
Red D: Yes. hidingy And then i will just quickly say that I thought Tozen, the the like drug dealer criminal. He was terrifying and he reminded me of Skeletor from Masters of...
Jen: Mm..
Jamie: by the power of Greyskull.
Red D: Yeah, exactly. So he was... his makeup mask... I don't know what it was. is very
Jamie: Also, I've just remembered the other thing this episode reminded me of hugely. Did either of you guys watch this legendarily budget looking...
Red D: Scanners.
Jamie: No. No, no, no, no, no. It's not that fucking rim. And that was not low budget. The amount of budget they spent on people's heads exploding. And I'm not just talking about the cast, but those who had to watch that shit.
Jamie: um But no, the one I've just pasted in the chat. Because heavily, heavily reminded of...
Red D: Okay.
Jamie: Yeah, Space Precinct.
Red D: Well, you know how I like space priests. Oh my God. There's a crime procedural set in space.
Jamie: Yes, yeah, it's on a space station manned by humans and aliens.
Red D: my gosh.
Jen: Oh, and it's 90s.
Red D: and
Jen: love 90s.
Jamie: yeah yeah yeah
Red D: I've got to watch this.
Jen: Oh.
Red D: Love it.
Jen: Space Precinct. Okay.
Jamie: yes yep i agree i agree um right cool next job star uh no themes themes yeah hit me
Jen: Might have to watch that one as well.
Red D: being led astray.
Jen: Hmm.
Jamie: The importance of appropriate judicial sentencing.
Jen: Price of freedom.
Red D: how easy your life can derail even when you're trying to do something. This was one of those good stories where his aims are noble, but the path he chose led him astray.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: Also roles and being needed. think.
Red D: yeah.
Jen: Neelix needed to be needed.
Jamie: Yep, yep.
Jen: Hmm.
Jamie: Needed to belong.
Jamie: Belonging.
Red D: Yep.
Jamie: Stop layers.
Jen: I have mine already.
Red D: Great.
Jamie: Ooh, go for it.
Jen: Yeah, I'm going to take this very, very rare opportunity to give Neelix the star player.
Red D: I thought
Jen: Yes.
Red D: you were going to say, going to take this very rare opportunity to go first and start play up.
Jen: Oh, no, no, I don't think I'm very often that um enjoying much Neelix episodes. So I'm going to say Neelix for this one. Well done, Neelix.
Red D: Nice. Okay.
Jen: Good job.
Jamie: Noted. Yep. Okay. Accepted. Red.
Red D: I am gonna give it on a merger with one of my points, I guess, because I'm gonna give it to Tuvok for his use of the word the similitude, which was a good ah word in like mainstream TV.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Jamie: Nice.
Red D: What's happened to the world? Do we still hear words like that?
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: But I'm teasing. But I did like the use of the word and decided to make it part of my stuff.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: So only I have joint star players. The first is Ensign Vorik as the only individual in the entirety of the episode who keeps their chill.
Jamie: And also i would also like to give it to the Plasma Cell, which is the only thing capable of springing Neelix from a life of crime, where all his crewmates, his friends, the forces of law and order, the forces of drug dealing all fail.
Jen: hmm
Red D: ah
Red D: Fair, you do have a knack for finding the most correct inanimate object nominate Star Plan. So, sounds good.
Jamie: Well, you know, the medical supplies didn't really help with the...
Red D: Very good.
Jamie: They had a medicinal application, I guess, but that's that.
Red D: ah
Jamie: Cool.
Red D: very good
Jamie: I think that, yeah, do we... Is there any more to be said in defence of Neelix as he forges his new his new path as a deuteronium scrubber for murder for two weeks?
Red D: We must just, uh, accessory tomorrow, right?
Jamie: Scrubbing that deuteronium.
Red D: i don't know.
Jamie: That's all good.
Red D: this Should I hit the jingle?
Jamie: I don't know. think you could press it lightly. No need to hit it.
Red D: Okay.
Jamie: Poor thing. Don't do jingle battery.
Jen: I don't know.
Red D: We'll just... Just a gentle jingle.
Jamie: It's been a pleasure. Children, fans, people who hate me as much as I hate Neelix, happy Easter.
Red D: Thanks, guys. Take look the verge. I'm trying to find the meat button before I sneeze.
Red D: Does anyone by any chance know the episode next time?
Jamie: zombie dancing.
Jamie: No.
Red D: Maybe you knew that. And the jingle's over. So you'll just have to tune in next time to find out what it is.
Jamie: There's no way they'll find out without listening to this. Good night.
Red D: Good night.
