Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
We watch "Innocence" (S2 Ep.22)
8 Plays18 days ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Innocence”, in which we get to hear Tuvok sing a lullaby, plus we hear about Chakotay’s first “first contact” experience..
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Theme music by Alain D
Recommended
Transcript
Silent Disco Vibes: A Relaxing Start
00:00:00
El Platypo
Oh, we're going to do silent disco and tune in and things like that.
00:00:01
Red D
Jingle. Yes. Exactly. Oh,
00:00:16
Jen
It's quite relaxing, ah a bit meditative, which ties in nicely with the episode.
00:00:18
Red D
ah good.
00:00:21
Red D
but
00:00:23
Red D
That's what I'm thinking.
Cat Influencer in London: Curiosity Sparked
00:00:26
El Platypo
Did I mention something about the real-life cat influencer this week?
00:00:26
Red D
Jamie's like, I missed the meditations.
00:00:31
Red D
Sorry I spoke over you, Jamie.
00:00:33
El Platypo
That's alright. I was just saying, did I mention I met a real life cat influencer this week?
00:00:37
Red D
Oh my gosh, who dat?
00:00:38
El Platypo
Yeah. Lupin in London.
00:00:42
Red D
Ah, I think I've seen Lupin. You didn't meet Larry.
00:00:44
El Platypo
Oh my days, really? Really?
00:00:46
Red D
Yes, I saw him.
00:00:48
El Platypo
Because I told my sister, because you know Nimbus is nearly you know at the level of being a cat influencer, um but obviously not. And then her reaction was so immediate that I wondered whether this actually was a famous cat.
00:01:04
El Platypo
um And I was obviously dismissed that immediately. um I know, as we say that, a cat enters the room behind my wife.
00:01:11
Jen
Yep.
00:01:12
El Platypo
um
00:01:12
Red D
They heard, they heard.
00:01:13
El Platypo
But is Lupin in London, then, famous cat?
00:01:15
Red D
I don't know, but I've definitely seen Lupin, the name Lupin, I'm sure, because I know Larry at number 10. I've come across Lupin. And then there's a cat that moves to like an island ah to serve out room his room for all her remaining years as an ambassador and for the UK type thing.
00:01:34
El Platypo
Really? Was that cat's name Lion-O? Okay.
00:01:37
Red D
I'm not sure, i couldn't possibly.
00:01:39
El Platypo
Because I think there's quite a shift that famous cartoon about that cat's journey. It's called The Thundercats.
00:01:45
Red D
Oh.
00:01:45
Jen
Mm-hmm.
Welcome to Janeway's Children: The Focus on 'Innocence'
00:01:47
Red D
Okay, welcome back, team, to Janeway's Children. um
00:01:52
El Platypo
Hurrah!
00:01:53
Red D
Yes, and today we are talking about season two, episode 22, Innocence. um
00:02:00
El Platypo
They are indeed.
00:02:02
Red D
We are indeed, yes. So, Jamie, I'm following the strict protocol that I created and this document. um Are you ready to give us a one-minute summary daniel you um in the way only you know how?
00:02:15
El Platypo
Well, I was, but then you told me that we were going to be following a strict protocol, and I'm not very good at it strict or protocol, or protocol strict, or otherwise.
Humorous Protocols and Cat Interruptions
00:02:24
Jen
Oh gosh, all this mention of protocol, like that's all I've heard during my work day today.
00:02:24
El Platypo
So now you've...
00:02:27
Red D
Oh, really?
00:02:29
Jen
but i like clinical trial protocol.
00:02:29
El Platypo
ah could have
00:02:31
Red D
Ah, yes.
00:02:32
Jen
So this is, you know, cortisol levels are rising here, guys.
00:02:34
El Platypo
I was going to say that in spite of all these disadvantages, I was well up for it, but no, Jenny has further derailed, aided and abetted, no doubt, by the black tortoiseshell kitty that's just leapt on her.
00:02:45
Red D
Oh.
00:02:46
El Platypo
ah So I think really it's a bit of a case of Tuvok going on a joyride, crashing his shuttle, finding three children in a forest, two of whom randomly mysteriously vanish, whilst Janeway makes friends with some pseudo-handmaid's tale-dressed conservator cultists who actually live on the moon, um who seem to spend their time trying to chase down Tuvok
00:02:57
Red D
Thank you.
Episode Twist: Children as Elders
00:03:16
El Platypo
who manages to escape with the help of the captain, along with the one surviving child, only to be stopped and informed that said child is in fact 96 years old and he's interrupting a sacred end-of-life ritual, ah which put a different the shape on it from, you know, I'm saving a child from murder.
00:03:38
Red D
Brilliant.
00:03:38
Jen
Nice!
00:03:39
El Platypo
Boom. Was it my unique style or was it strictly protocoled?
00:03:43
Red D
That was quite on protocol, I've got to say.
00:03:45
Jen
Mmm! It's put on!
00:03:46
El Platypo
Well, you know, there are some standards that are being applied here, Innocence Devlon, and frankly, I think we need to buck up our standards around here. It's been a loosely run ship, and there's going to be strictness and protocol from here on out.
00:04:00
Red D
We certainly know Voyager. That's true, I'm sorry.
00:04:03
Jen
this is
00:04:04
El Platypo
I know, we have strictness and we have protocol here. We'd never allow someone like Neelix to be served.
00:04:09
Red D
Oh, oh, oh. Okay. Walking a fine line now. Um...
00:04:12
El Platypo
LAUGHTER
00:04:12
Jen
Oh.
00:04:15
Red D
So, I
Lisa Klink's Contributions: Writing and Songwriting
00:04:16
Red D
was wondering. I don't think anyone popped in a cool thing. um
00:04:20
El Platypo
Ooh. Aw.
00:04:21
Red D
But... I wanted to just mention, because I did go on the Wikipedia, I guess, for this episode.
00:04:27
El Platypo
oh
00:04:27
Red D
And, um... I think the episode was written by ah writer Lisa Klink, who's right written, obviously, you can lots of other episodes. But she also wrote the lullaby that was featured in this...
00:04:39
El Platypo
ah
00:04:40
Red D
ah episode and as a result she was inducted into the Songwriters Union ASCAP or ASCAP as a result so I think that's pretty cool yeah
00:04:42
Jen
ah oh
00:04:47
El Platypo
and That's absolutely amazing.
00:04:49
Jen
Oh, that is interesting.
00:04:51
El Platypo
like it did it didn't feel like a Star Trek version of the songs that they have in Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit.
00:04:57
Red D
oh yes
00:04:57
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:04:58
Jen
Yeah.
00:04:59
El Platypo
Oh, dear.
00:05:00
Red D
um So that would be the one called Vig for today. So moving on to initial reactions. I'm going to stick to this order that I've jotted down on the paper next to me, but you know I need so I don't get lost.
Initial Reactions: Philosophical Themes and Vulcan Quotes
00:05:10
Red D
So Jenny, initial reactions.
00:05:10
El Platypo
Hurrah.
00:05:12
Red D
do you want to kick us off?
00:05:14
Jen
yeah I liked it, yeah. It wasn't like on my high, you know, one of my favourite ones, but I did enjoy it. I always do enjoy anything with some cheesy, cheesy emotional, it's not emotional, sorry, cheesy philosophical um themes in it and some great, you know, cheesy quotes as well, especially when they're Vulcan quotes.
00:05:23
El Platypo
So
00:05:34
El Platypo
it was sort of...
00:05:35
Jen
So, yeah, I enjoyed it.
00:05:35
Red D
Yes.
00:05:38
Red D
Good. Jamie?
Sci-fi Elements and Personal Favorites
00:05:43
El Platypo
so it was sort of sci-fi done gently, which I think is Star Trek's happy place, but I did sometimes find it a bit slow and random going.
00:05:53
Jen
Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.
00:05:57
El Platypo
um i mean, there there were... Suddenly, your eyebrows rose and you got more engaged when, for instance, two of the children vanished.
00:06:09
El Platypo
um Or there was the massive political drama as the... or the foreboding of trouble in the future as the prelate takes offense at the warp core being the first thing that she's shown.
00:06:22
El Platypo
But um I'd give it a ah B, B plus.
00:06:29
Red D
Interesting, interesting because I loved it but it has two of my favourite things. Tuvok and great children like child actors and then like the contrast between Tuvok and children I just I really enjoyed.
00:06:42
El Platypo
Oh, right.
00:06:42
Red D
Tuvok
00:06:44
El Platypo
So which of the two things you like? Now, Jake, sorry.
00:06:46
Red D
and two but ah ah good children characters. um So, yeah, I
Disappearing Children: Suspense and Engagement
00:06:53
Red D
loved it. I find it interesting. I wasn't even paying attention to the political shenanigans.
00:06:57
Red D
I ah find it interesting that you say that your intrigue was first, I guess, um when the children disappeared.
00:07:04
El Platypo
Well, I don't know. It was like there wasn't a plot until that point to me, if that made any sense.
00:07:06
Red D
Yeah, no, no. and i't miss I'm not disagreeing.
High-Level Themes: Knowledge vs Fear
00:07:13
Red D
I'm just finding it ah very interesting how we reacted to this episode.
00:07:14
El Platypo
That's I'm just being defensive.
00:07:17
Red D
Okay. Well, um I mean, for once, I'm not. And this features my favourite character very heavily, so that's quite impressive.
00:07:26
El Platypo
we go.
00:07:27
Red D
um Great, so we've got like a B, B+, plus and for me, like a A, triple plus. Yeah.
00:07:33
Jen
didn
00:07:33
El Platypo
Excellent. What did we get from Jenny?
00:07:35
Red D
yeah Okay.
00:07:35
Jen
Well, I think yeah B plus sounds about right. um I'm not surprised that it was a high one though for you Red, I thought it might be. It's very too book heavy.
00:07:45
Red D
Yes, it is. Exactly.
00:07:47
El Platypo
Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:48
Red D
um Okay, so time whiz-fround a couple of our favorite things. Back to you, Jenny.
00:07:54
El Platypo
yeah
00:07:56
Jen
Well, although I enjoyed it, you know I really struggled to put and
Meditation and Personal Philosophies
00:08:01
Jen
anything down this week. I did in the end, but um it was for some reason bit of struggle. Though to be honest, I don't know how much that is the episode versus is just how tired I am from the working week. work you weeks So um the first one I had down is they're all very like high level themes. I don't know um i just That's what I enjoyed about this episode. So all the knowledge versus fear
00:08:26
Jen
kind of elements to it and you know it's I can't remember Tuvok's exact line but it was something about using knowledge as a guard against fear or we we fear what we don't understand and this was his sort of his take on it as he was going alone into the cave where there might be rock or I'm not sure it's called some kind of scary something that kills children yeah and he's going to go in there alone because you know then he'll be armed with knowledge and that's
00:08:26
Red D
Yes.
00:08:45
Red D
Yes. ah
00:08:45
El Platypo
yep moroc it's like the jabberwock you know Hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:08:55
Jen
is a god against fear, which I thought it was really interesting and um I guess is a philosophy that I have liked to believe in my life as well, pursuit of knowledge for all kinds of reasons but that that is one of them, not to, you know, to to try and understand the so that we don't fear.
00:09:17
Jen
So I enjoyed that element.
First Encounter: Costumes and Cultural Representations
00:09:20
Red D
Yeah, as you said that, or I mean, yes, he had that very explicit quote, but then I guess it's back to, i guess, ja when you alluded to, Jamie, the Dreyans, whatever, they obviously were, like, more fear-based because their knowledge had hurt them in the past.
00:09:35
Red D
They shut down all kind of...
00:09:36
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:09:37
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:09:38
Red D
ah So, yeah, I was running through. Jamie. Jamie.
00:09:40
Jen
That's a really good point.
00:09:41
El Platypo
Yeah, of so I think my first two initial things that I reacted to, ah the and I quite enjoyed it, the whole first encounter element um with bits of flavour added by Chakotay, saying he accidentally propositioned...
00:09:53
Red D
Mm.
00:09:58
Red D
Mm.
00:10:02
El Platypo
some tar rocks when making first contact and also very very struck by the handmaid's tale sort of overtures and undertones of the prelate's garb and then the pseudo-religious pseudo-closeness of her species outlook I think it is Yeah, so that that sort of struck me as interesting, and i I don't know, was I alone in seeing those religious overtones to the garb of the Dreyans, or was that just me?
00:10:34
Red D
I'm really glad you raised the topic of their garb, of their costume, because i i watched it i watched it a little bit, like, not I mean, I watched it last week, and I watched a little bit of it now, and I went on re-watching.
00:10:37
Jen
Thank you.
00:10:39
El Platypo
Oh, well, it's not garb. No.
00:10:46
Red D
mean, obviously, have bapa va they veil, they're very, like, closed off. That is very religious. But then I noticed on the side, like, they they stitched in, and their, like, sleeves are, like, stitched down, so they have, like, not as much free movement.
00:10:56
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:10:57
Red D
i was like, wow, they really, like, I guess I was thinking buttoned down, but they, like, stitched in, kind of.
00:11:02
El Platypo
Hmm. st Stitch down.
00:11:05
Red D
Yeah.
00:11:05
El Platypo
Stitch down.
00:11:07
Red D
Good representation, I think, through the costume.
00:11:10
El Platypo
Hmm. A message being given there in more than one way.
00:11:15
Red D
Yes. And I have a confession to make. I haven't read The Handmaid's Tale, so I need
Wikipedia Confession: Humor and Outrage
00:11:20
Red D
to...
00:11:20
El Platypo
ah had to Nor have I. Can confess something?
00:11:22
Jen
I have not either.
00:11:22
Red D
Okay.
00:11:24
El Platypo
Just as as a one thing, and you can choose to edit it out.
00:11:24
Red D
Yeah?
00:11:27
El Platypo
and this
00:11:27
Red D
I'm not editing this! Sorry.
00:11:30
El Platypo
Oh, I really want to confess it, but I think it ruined things. and please
00:11:34
Red D
Okay, I mean, let's see. Let's see. I'll make it out timestamp.
00:11:38
El Platypo
Okay, so I was prompted by your your mention of having Wikipedia did. At one stage, deep, deep with the in the annals of our past ah podcast episodes, and it's not one
00:11:55
Red D
Wait, are you going to confess that you never actually watched an episodes? You just watched read the Wikipedia and then did the one-man summary?
00:12:00
El Platypo
of them. Only one, only one, to see if you guys would notice.
00:12:04
Jen
Oh my goodness, I am outraged.
00:12:08
El Platypo
ah nobody
00:12:08
Red D
Which one?
00:12:08
Jen
Outraged.
00:12:09
El Platypo
hey
00:12:10
Red D
Which one?
00:12:12
El Platypo
I'm not telling you. You have to guess. It's a bit worrying that you can't tell the difference between my Wikipedia level of knowledge and...
00:12:16
Red D
You know what's worrying? Is that you...
00:12:19
El Platypo
Sorry.
00:12:19
Red D
Yeah, that you could... you could, um, fool us just by talking.
00:12:23
Jen
Mm.
00:12:26
El Platypo
I mean, I did come out with rather a lot more bullshit that particular one, but i'm I'm sure that I did it. I can't remember exactly which one, but...
00:12:36
Jen
Was this potentially where we've been accusing him Red a lot of not listening because he just copies a point which we've just said, maybe it's intentional.
00:12:43
El Platypo
Oh god, no, no, no. Those those were those were literally because I was you know having ADHD moments of distraction.
00:12:45
Red D
That happened more than once.
00:12:50
El Platypo
that That was definitely ones where I had watched the episode.
00:12:50
Red D
Oh my gosh, I'm going to have to go back and listen. i have to say last, when I edited, well not edited, when I produced the last episode, produced is just like a fancy word for saying, wrote some text and something and hit publish, but anyway.
00:12:57
Jen
I know, God.
00:13:06
Jen
it
00:13:06
Red D
Um,
00:13:07
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:13:08
Red D
ah Because it was I like kind of test the beginning and I test the end.
00:13:11
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:13:12
Red D
But then I was kind of just listening to the whole episode. I was like, I love listening to this.
00:13:16
El Platypo
Aww.
00:13:16
Jen
Oh, yay.
00:13:17
Red D
But I've never really listened that much before.
00:13:18
Jen
Well,
00:13:20
Red D
So that was kind of fun.
00:13:21
Jen
I'm very glad someone enjoys listening to us. I have to say, I, you know, geared myself up to the horror of hearing my own voice on recording because, you know, most people hate hearing their own voice.
00:13:33
El Platypo
all
00:13:34
Jen
And Jamie and I sort of mental mentally prepared ourselves for this. And then we listened to the first one we ever did. This was ages ago. And we were, I think, especially because our expectations were so low, we were actually really pleasantly surprised.
00:13:47
El Platypo
We sound really good, yeah.
00:13:48
Jen
um But here's the thing, since listening to 10 minutes of the first one we ever did, i have never listened to any episodes.
00:13:54
Red D
you've not no that wouldn't make any sense if you listen to our if we listen to our own podcast it was just that I mean I do listen lot of podcasts so um I think I like having something in the background but I was like oh I don't really want I'm not gonna press stop yet I'll just carry on listening a bit more so yeah
00:13:56
El Platypo
Aw.
00:13:56
Jen
Yeah. yeah
00:14:11
El Platypo
oh
00:14:12
Jen
Yeah, when my my thinking was, you know, if we were pleasantly surprised, then we really shouldn't listen to any more because then that can stay stuck in our my head that it doesn't, isn't too bad and I don't want to change that.
00:14:23
Red D
Honestly, I think that's a great strategy. And when you find out that, I mean, some, like actors and stuff sometimes don't even watch the episodes that they're in.
00:14:26
Jen
Hmm.
00:14:31
Red D
If it's like a series or they watch it when a premieres, I don't what the, before streaming when it was on and then never again.
00:14:31
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:14:40
Red D
So.
00:14:40
Jen
I can completely understand I do think it's a shame when you hear about an actor or actress doing that, who you think is fantastic
00:14:46
El Platypo
Yeah.
Tuvok and Children: Sweet Dynamics
00:14:47
Jen
and did a great job because it's sad they can't appreciate their own work in that way, but I completely get it.
00:14:47
Red D
Yes.
00:14:49
El Platypo
Yeah. a
00:14:53
Jen
I think I'd be the same.
00:14:55
Red D
I think it was Matthew Perry who was re-watching like, you know, Friends, like, I mean, a little bit, but...
00:15:00
El Platypo
Friends? This is actually rather good.
00:15:04
Red D
And he was like, oh, I was good. like, yes, dude!
00:15:07
Jen
Oh, he was amazing.
00:15:07
Red D
My gosh.
00:15:08
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:15:09
Red D
a But you could also see, like, if you didn't get a laugh, oh, you didn't take that very well. um
00:15:15
Jen
Thank
00:15:16
Red D
Okay. I will wrap up this round, I guess. So, as I alluded to, i did love the contrast of Tuvok and the children. ah because Tuvok's strict and children are children.
00:15:25
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:15:28
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:15:28
Red D
And so I could talk about this a lot, but I had a a couple of, I guess, quotes. um Like when he's trying to be kind, and they're like, oh, why are you being so mean? It's like, oh, that's a soft version of Tuvok.
00:15:39
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:15:39
Jen
a
00:15:39
El Platypo
Aww.
00:15:41
Red D
You just don't realize.
00:15:41
El Platypo
yeah
00:15:42
Red D
But he's so direct. And ah I think he had a line, I don't know, they were doing something and one of the kids was like, I can't help it. He's like, I believe you can help it, which is just hilarious.
00:15:50
El Platypo
ah
00:15:51
Jen
Yeah, love that line.
00:15:52
Red D
And... When he's trying to get, when he's like, these two kind of repair his shuttle and everything, he's like, I expect each of you to sit quietly and not touch any of the equipment. And then it cuts directly to like children running around, like screaming or laughing more.
00:16:01
El Platypo
ah
00:16:06
El Platypo
And then when he puts them in an an individual place. Aww.
00:16:09
Red D
Yes.
00:16:09
Jen
Yeah.
00:16:10
Red D
But I think that's a very sweet moment because he picks each one up and like, you sit here, you sit here, you sit here.
00:16:10
El Platypo
Aww.
00:16:14
Red D
And then ah the little boy, who's sorry, his name, um and I meant to refresh my memory, but he's like, oh, I want to sit next to you. And then Tuvok goes and sits next to him It's kind of like sweet.
00:16:23
El Platypo
ah
00:16:24
Red D
um and But I did love the fact that he managed to get the kids to meditate. So we touched on this a little bit earlier.
00:16:31
El Platypo
yeah
00:16:31
Jen
yeah
00:16:32
El Platypo
There were a lot of sighs on his part as he dealt with them, I found.
00:16:32
Red D
And... Hmm?
00:16:35
Red D
huh Yes.
00:16:36
El Platypo
There were a lot of sighs on his part as he dealt with them.
00:16:38
Red D
Yes. and lot of But the meditation... and There were two meditation bits. But Jenny, I don't know if you thought this, but... The first meditation when he talks about blowing away the black cloud or something like that reminded me of the meditation you shared with me to help with flying.
00:16:50
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:16:53
Jen
hu
00:16:54
Red D
I was like, ah, yes, I recognize that.
00:16:57
Jen
I had exactly the same thought read
00:16:57
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:16:59
Jen
Yeah, it's that great anti-anxiety um hypnosis and you imagine yourself, yeah well you you see a feather floating, you visualize the feather and then you imagine that your breathing is affecting the
00:16:59
Red D
Ah!
Meditation Technique Tangent: Personal Reflections
00:17:13
Jen
movement of the feather and then there's there's a whole other bit where you're putting, you know, something, your anxiety is a colour and you're putting it in a box and then the box goes in the hot air balloon and then watch the hot air balloon lift away and you've got all these lovely backing
00:17:13
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:17:27
Jen
hypnosis sounds as well and it's very relaxing. So I can totally get on board with them and the meditative element of this.
00:17:34
Red D
Yeah, ah okay, this is a huge tangent, but that meditation really helped me on um when I do it before flights. I just don't always do it, which I should. But Jenny, would you imagine the feather and your breathing is making it go up and down? Where is the feather and how does your breath interact with it?
00:17:50
Jen
Where is it?
00:17:50
Red D
Does that make sense?
00:17:51
Jen
ah Yeah, well it's just on a on a table in front of me, like here.
00:17:56
Red D
Okay, and then how does your breath reach that feather and make it move up and down?
00:17:57
Jen
we
00:18:01
Jen
Oh, well, I'm not imagining that it's, it's like a fantasy world, right?
00:18:03
Red D
ah
00:18:04
El Platypo
Hmm, it's not a physical relationship, that just echo it
00:18:05
Jen
So, so but the the feather doesn't have to be in front of my mouth, like it would have to be in real life.
00:18:09
Red D
See, for me, I'm like, the feather has to be front of my mouth, but it's not resting.
00:18:12
Jen
Hmm.
00:18:13
Red D
So I'm like, okay.
00:18:14
Jen
but
00:18:15
El Platypo
Could the feather not just be resting on your chest as it rises and falls with the breath like the waves?
00:18:19
Red D
Yeah, that's maybe what I'm going to have to do. Because honestly, this feather just floating in the day does take me out of the meditation from time to time.
00:18:26
Jen
but well
00:18:26
El Platypo
I feel are some complex psychological things here at play.
00:18:27
Red D
And I'm like, yes, yes.
00:18:31
Jen
I always feel whenever I listen to that like um am I super boring because the feather is all they say you can choose any kind of feather like a big and large and fluffy and colorful and my feather is always just this like tiny white little fluffy feather that's the most relaxing feather surely
00:18:40
El Platypo
Oh. Hmm.
00:18:45
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:18:45
Red D
Yes, me too.
00:18:47
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:18:48
Red D
Yes, I think so. The downy feather kind of.
00:18:51
Jen
yeah
00:18:51
Red D
ah Sorry about that tangent, but the final thing I want to say about Tupac and the kids is I just like how he speaks to them a bit like they're adults. um So when they're like, oh, what's that talking about? He's like, oh I don't have my loot, I think he said.
00:19:06
Red D
And he was like, It's a five-stringed instrument tuned to the diaton diatonic scale. I'm like, they're not going to know what diatonic is or whatever, but he just talks to them like, yeah, love you, you know.
00:19:13
Jen
swift
00:19:17
Red D
um So I just loved all of the interactions there.
00:19:22
Red D
I'm not sure if you guys have anything to add, but... sir
00:19:25
El Platypo
I did possibly have a few things on... um I just love the fact that what was supposedly a lullaby had 348 verses. Faelor's journey across the Veiroth Sea.
00:19:40
El Platypo
But like he started singing it and it sounded very much like a lullaby, like a scene from The Hobbit. Although the fact that Faelor's journey was to acquire knowledge and then to you know gain more by giving out the knowledge he found um seemed very, very Vulcan-ish.
Lullaby and Vulcan Philosophy
00:19:58
Jen
um
00:19:59
Red D
Jamie, do you remember the line? I said something like, I guess I don't have to do the full narrative or something like...
00:20:04
El Platypo
you do Oh, you do.
00:20:06
Red D
Yeah. Okay. Okay.
00:20:09
El Platypo
ah Yes, I also recall that line on Tuvok's part as he decided how he was going to actually break it down for them. Just to convince you that I'm not doing you know a Wikipedia and gone this episode round.
00:20:16
Red D
ah
00:20:18
Red D
ah That wasn't me like doing a spot quiz, but well now I know, but but you have such a good memory for lines.
00:20:22
El Platypo
ah was That was a trap, Red. We both know it. Hmm.
00:20:29
Red D
That's why I threw that to you.
00:20:31
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:20:32
Red D
Okay. So moving on to our next round, I guess back to you, Jenny.
00:20:37
Jen
Well, um I do think we've already covered one of mine, which was the same, because it's the same as yours read about the whole meditation and it reminded me of yeah some of the anti-anxiety hypnosis for flying that we've both used.
00:20:43
Red D
Oh, yes.
00:20:49
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:20:51
Jen
And I also wondered, um it's a similar vein, but the whole ah sort of visualization he did for the kids where he's getting them to detach themselves from their own fears,
00:21:03
Jen
um
00:21:03
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:21:04
Jen
I thought was really interesting and I wondered if that was also some kind of ah CBT, you know, taken from the CBT manual um about imagining your fears as a bit like you'd imagine your anxiety for flying, floating away, your disting yourself from you your fears and your anxiety.
00:21:24
Jen
um i thought that was really interesting and also interesting that I wonder if it can be, presumably it is effective for kids as well.
00:21:33
Red D
Yeah.
00:21:33
Jen
um which is really interesting.
00:21:36
Red D
Well, at least according to Voyager, because when those kids are like, what are your kids like? and he's like, well behaved.
00:21:40
El Platypo
Well behaved.
00:21:41
Red D
Yeah.
00:21:41
Jen
have And then, ah yeah, I think he talks about, I did find it a study when he talks about his kids having reached several different planes of, ah I don't know, yes, yes.
00:21:43
El Platypo
oh like
00:21:51
El Platypo
meditative contemplation a very early age. Good question.
00:21:55
Jen
How many are there? oh Yeah.
00:21:56
El Platypo
What are your kids like?
00:21:59
Red D
I mean, I have quite a few friends with kids and I feel like I've heard this topic come up at a little bit, at least I guess amongst my friends who themselves interested in meditation.
Teaching Meditation to Children
00:22:09
Red D
I'm going to have to follow up with them, I think.
00:22:12
El Platypo
Is it ethically okay to teach your kids to meditate so they're not so annoying?
00:22:18
Jen
Surely yes.
00:22:18
Red D
Well, I mean, yes, maybe that's the Vulcan way, but also to help them deal stuff in life.
00:22:24
El Platypo
you say to help them deal with stuff i think we all know what's actually at play there
00:22:24
Red D
ahly
00:22:29
Red D
I mean, the best way to make your kid not annoying is to get them into reading, I think, because all I wanted to do as a kid, well, maybe I was still annoying, i don't know, but it was just going be by myself and read.
00:22:37
Jen
is
00:22:39
Red D
So, but, yeah.
00:22:39
Jen
Yeah, I did a lot of that. but
00:22:44
Red D
um Anything to add, Jamie, before you we move on to your next point?
00:22:50
El Platypo
No, no, no, no, I think you were got it very, very well
00:22:55
Red D
Okay, well then, you're up.
00:22:57
El Platypo
Am I? Oh gosh um So i I recently watched a scene from a sketch by Monty Python which basically has these two ah mafia capos going to visit an army base saying nice army base you got here be a shame if something happened to it I've bought, we can make sure no armoured car gets knocked off a shell.
00:23:25
El Platypo
um And I found an element of that in the doctor's interaction with the prelate when she goes to sickbay. And he says, oh, we never we never get such distinguished guests here, apart from when they have accidents.
00:23:39
Jen
okay
00:23:40
El Platypo
And it's like, why would they have accidents? I mean, of course you'll be in the best possible hands. And it's like, are you now saying they're going to have an accident? And I quite enjoyed that moment of giving the doctor a shovel.
00:23:51
El Platypo
But I think it's...
00:23:52
Red D
It was...
00:23:52
El Platypo
um
00:23:53
Red D
I'll go Jenny.
00:23:54
Jen
I think it was great also that later on that was followed up with, I've been i've been taking lessons from Kez on diplomacy. and And I think Jane may or someone commented that it it was paying off.
00:24:05
El Platypo
It's...
00:24:06
Red D
Yes! ah That's a good point. doesn't I didn't actually pick that up, but I did love Janeway's face as he said that. She was like, what you saying? Like, on her face.
00:24:15
El Platypo
oh yeah there are so many moments in that in in her interaction with the prelate where you can see jane would look at her crew just gonna like read the room read the room
00:24:18
Red D
no
00:24:25
Red D
Like, such a difficult species and they need something from them. i mean, it was like a very funny moment. I'm glad that we discussed that. um Okay, I'm happy to give my second point, I guess. It's a bit related to the children, but a different point, sorry.
00:24:44
El Platypo
Ooh.
00:24:44
Red D
um But I guess Tuvok does spend lot time the episode explaining to these kids how he controls his emotions, how his kids learn to control the emotions, how they're not afraid of anything because emotions...
00:24:55
El Platypo
He's a bit self-referential, isn't he?
00:24:57
Red D
Well, that's not what I gonna say. um
00:24:59
El Platypo
Yeah, that's awesome.
00:25:00
Red D
oh When the kids ask him, like, if you don't have feelings, can you love your children? which I thought was quite a big, interesting question.
00:25:07
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:25:08
Red D
um And no one I had already considered, I guess, in terms of Vulcan relationships and all that kind of stuff, not just children.
00:25:15
El Platypo
a
00:25:17
Red D
But he did give a good answer, I guess, about how they part of his identity, and without them, he feels like he's, I guess, missing something.
00:25:28
El Platypo
How can he feel if he has no emotions?
00:25:31
Red D
I guess this is more about who he is than how he feels. I guess that's maybe how Vulcans interpret him as a father. But thought it was an interesting question. i don't know what you guys thought.
00:25:43
El Platypo
I mean,
00:25:45
Red D
Quickly read Wikipedia, Jamie. Hmm.
00:25:48
El Platypo
I find the concept of Vulcan non-emotionalism a flawed one at best as a fictional vehicle.
00:25:49
Jen
i
00:26:01
Red D
Hmm.
00:26:02
Jen
I mean it is yeah because there's a lot of if you question it too carefully there's a lot of you know it's not
00:26:07
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:26:08
Jen
really gonna come off but I think the whole point is that it's just a concept to explore the dichotomy shall we say between emotion and reason that there is in humans so I don't think I don't want to delve into it don't you because you'll uncover that actually this is this there's a there's a lot in Star Trek that doesn't really hold up to scrutiny but I thought he gave a great answer as well
00:26:16
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:26:22
Red D
Yeah, I mean...
00:26:30
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:26:31
Red D
No. Yeah. i mean Again, I'm sure they'll explain...
00:26:33
El Platypo
You mean they're all... No, no, no.
00:26:35
Red D
Oh, sorry. It's not that they have no emotions, but they don't let emotions control them, I guess. It's...
00:26:44
Red D
and which I feel like in our hyper-emotional age that we're going through now for some reason, I would like to see some more of that, if I'm honest. um But ah yeah, I just thought, like I had never really stopped to think this whole, like you know such a strong hold on your emotions, does that limit your affection you can have for people, or your bonds you can have with your family, or your partner or something.
00:27:11
Red D
So...
00:27:11
Jen
It's interesting because, but I wonder, there's a difference isn't there between feeling them and expressing those emotions. um So yeah, it's a bit the same as what you've said right about.
00:27:27
Jen
They do have them, but they're just detaching from them.
00:27:31
Red D
And I don't want to give away my final point, but as we'll see, his actions make people feel a certain way, I guess, at the end of the episode. and so That way is a certain emotion. so Anyway, spoiler.
00:27:42
El Platypo
um
00:27:43
Red D
Okay. Right, Jenny. I think it's according to my little schematic here.
00:27:49
Jen
Yep. Well I have one very trivial point left and one very you know deep and meaningful point so I'm gonna save the really trivial hilarious point at the end.
00:27:50
Red D
It's your turn.
00:27:54
Red D
Love it.
00:28:02
Jen
I just found it very moving and sad the sort of ending quotes around Tuvok explaining to the kid that I cannot protect you from the natural conclusion of life.
Accepting Life's End vs Star Trek Heroism
00:28:16
El Platypo
Hmm. Yeah. World. Hmm.
00:28:17
Jen
Even though he's promised to protect her, that was when he thought it was a monster or some kind of being or or her own people trying to kill her.
00:28:17
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:28:22
El Platypo
yeah my
00:28:25
Jen
um But the reality is, you can't protect people from everything. um And I think that goes against the grain of a lot of Star Trek episodes, you know, where they're the heroes and they're protecting people and they're protecting each other.
00:28:39
Jen
um So I just thought that was a really interesting contrast there.
00:28:47
Red D
Yeah, love that actually. That's a good point because normally always a happy ending, but here there's just no way to change the ending because it's actually natural part of that.
00:28:54
El Platypo
and
00:28:56
Red D
Sorry, Jamie.
00:28:57
El Platypo
No, it was more an acceptance of an ending as opposed to... i mean, you always find on Star Trek but it it's rage, rage, rage, or not anger, rage, but you know action, action, action, and find a way to outwit the turning of the wheel.
00:29:16
El Platypo
In this instance, is it's going with that to a peaceful and natural and accepted conclusion. That's interesting. and It's quite a culturally interesting idea that um I think mirrors a Native of American ah concept I've heard of, with the circle of life, where effectively the idea is that at extreme age, folk become childlike again, and the representation of the...
Childhood and Old Age: Life's Cycle
00:29:47
El Platypo
the children as being 96 years old where they revert to a really totally innocent state and have left all their cares behind is there a physical representation of that which I find an interesting cultural parallel.
00:30:02
Red D
Hmm, yeah. I think, I mean, I don't think about aging that much because it seems and impossible, i guess, in a sense. But there are so many parallels between childhood and old age, like when you really, or older age, I don't know how to put it.
00:30:16
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:30:21
Red D
So it was interesting to see that explored, for sure.
00:30:25
Jen
it reminds me i had a conversation um
00:30:26
El Platypo
Yeah. Hmm.
00:30:31
Jen
so many years ago, it must have been about 20 years ago, with my dad once about death because I can't even, God knows how this topic came up.
00:30:39
Red D
you
00:30:39
Jen
um You know, no one had recently died. it was just, you know, I don't know, maybe we'd watched an episode of Star Trek. And I was really young at the time, maybe 22.
00:30:48
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:30:48
Jen
And I was saying that my take on it, it was that was that it was so hard to imagine um being at an older age and I think maybe there'd been some articles in the newspaper about um various um like end of life care.
00:31:07
Jen
um And i was just talking about how it was so hard to imagine um the sort of strength and bravery it would take to sort of say, you know, I've lived i've lived a good ah good age now, i've I've lived a good life and, um you know, so therefore, you know, give me a do not process state order or,
00:31:26
Jen
or you know I want to end my life on my terms or you know any kind of sort of um
End-of-Life Perspectives: Personal Stories
00:31:33
Jen
taking charge of your own death element like to me I'm very you know quite surprised and impressed by the people who are able to do that um and I just remember my dad was saying but absolutely but also he his take on it was that when you get to a certain age your body and your mind actually prepares you for it
00:31:58
Jen
And I just always remembered it because I thought, oh, I wonder if that's true. And if it is, that's quite comforting.
00:32:02
Red D
Yeah, that is a comforting thought.
00:32:02
Jen
Which, yeah, maybe that's why he said it.
00:32:06
Red D
No, but I think, you know, as you said that, I mean, haven't hit heard it articulated like that, but that makes sense, because I think there's some, I think about, like, the older people, grandparents and stuff like that in my life.
00:32:18
Red D
I'm very happy that if they're still alive, they're still alive, but... And they're not unhappy that they're alive, but they're really, they're like tired. They're, well, i don't want to be speaking about half of them, but they're not as afraid, I guess, as I am now, because um yeah, that's why I hate flying, basically, as we've discussed.
00:32:28
Jen
Hmm.
00:32:37
Red D
But also, what you said, what understands that what I said before we got it on the recording is that I hate making any kind of big life decisions. So yes, I see what you're saying there about actually making a conscious choice, but
00:32:47
Jen
you
00:32:52
Red D
I like that thing, that thing your dad shared, that is very comforting.
00:32:59
Red D
Because it's very, yeah, it's very hard to comprehend, I've got to be honest.
00:32:59
Jen
a very deep you know and meaningful point
00:33:08
Red D
um Great. um On that note, Jamie, do you want to go next?
00:33:15
El Platypo
um
00:33:19
El Platypo
I mean, if I'm honest, i've almost I've almost exhausted the points that I was going to make.
00:33:30
El Platypo
and i think I mentioned...
00:33:30
Red D
You've got a few... um sorry, go ahead.
00:33:32
El Platypo
No, no, no. There were some lines that various of the... the kids come out with like, can I scratch my nose?
00:33:44
El Platypo
Do what? Sigh.
00:33:47
Jen
Thank you.
00:33:48
El Platypo
But then also the contrast of that sort of innocence with their statements of the children of they send us here to die. And then finding out ah in a scene that reminded me of the mighty bush where they,
00:34:02
El Platypo
they have a ah They have basically a shaman council, the whole thing with shaman council.
00:34:02
Red D
Oh, wow.
00:34:08
El Platypo
You've got these weird and incredibly crazy characters. And you have Kirk, this little character who's a child, sat on the end of them. And they're all talking and doing crazy weird things. And then they all go, but of course, we all agree that the greatest drug taker amongst us is Kirk.
00:34:25
El Platypo
Kirk, is it not true that you are still the most debauched drug taker in the whole of Alpha Centauri? and you You look Kirk and he's just completely spaced. Or, um you know, Kirk is not to be trusted. Kirk is a debased sexual adventurer who is still wanted in three galaxies.
00:34:43
El Platypo
Kirk, is it true that you're still a debauched adventurer of the most vile kind? Yes.
00:34:51
Red D
I need to... Wow, I don't remember that.
00:34:51
El Platypo
And there's there's just an element of that in the whole finding out that they're 96 and have been hugging Tuvok like children think.
00:34:57
Red D
oh
00:34:59
El Platypo
But I recommend i recommend looking up Mighty Boosh and Kirk.
00:35:03
Red D
Okay, yeah, because I mean, I remember Euro de Change. That's really the thing that stuck with me from the Mighty Boosh. Was that reason?
00:35:11
El Platypo
yeah
00:35:12
Red D
And the zoo. I guess that's most of it.
00:35:14
El Platypo
The zoo, the zoo, the zoo.
00:35:15
Jen
Yep.
00:35:15
Red D
i mean
00:35:16
El Platypo
And the crack fox.
00:35:19
Red D
Oh! No, feel like i need to watch that again, because having lived in London for 15 years, i feel like that's going to make more- a lot more sense than what
Cultural References and Humor
00:35:25
Red D
I did when i first tried.
00:35:25
El Platypo
Yeah. Yeah, and the um the the beggars who take contact with card payments in euros. Hmm.
00:35:34
Jen
so
00:35:35
Red D
Janey.
00:35:36
Jen
I was just thinking that I brought back a memory of that I was introduced to but by a teenage friend as a like radio show and I thought it was the most hilarious thing I'd ever heard and then when I watched it as a TV episode I was just weird how it was not funny to me anymore
00:35:44
Red D
Yes.
00:35:44
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:35:56
Jen
There's for some reason there's something about it being radio format that I found absolutely hilarious, which just didn't translate me.
00:35:56
Red D
Wow.
00:36:00
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:36:03
El Platypo
Ssss.
00:36:03
Jen
It's weird.
00:36:04
Red D
That is so interesting because i saw the show on TV before I'm not even sure I knew it was a radio show until I was on the BBC app and saw it's like
00:36:07
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:36:13
Red D
years later. But maybe it's a bit like reading a book and then seeing a film.
00:36:14
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:36:18
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:36:18
Red D
Like, listening it on the radio. Sometimes it can't quite live up to what you saw in your own mind.
00:36:23
Jen
Hmm, because you'd imagined it differently, yeah.
00:36:28
Red D
Oh, that is funny. I think I want- if I remember correctly, I saw Noel Fielding in Soho once. One of my celebrity spottings.
00:36:35
El Platypo
And that was the greatest night of his life.
00:36:36
Red D
Oh my gosh!
00:36:38
Jen
hit
00:36:38
Red D
ah I don't think so. I had a celebrity sighting the other day. It's South East London. Oh, Greg Davies, never mind.
00:36:49
Red D
Okay. um
00:36:52
El Platypo
That's a huge deal. He's hilarious.
00:36:54
Red D
Yes, it was Valentine's Day and I was at the pub and then he came in with some friends. and
00:37:00
El Platypo
Romance is not dead.
00:37:02
Red D
Romance is not dead.
00:37:03
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:37:04
Red D
ah Okay, I think it's my turn. I think I basically you only have one more left, really, because we've
Tuvok's Care for Children: Touching Moments
00:37:10
Red D
discussed the list of the Bayan.
00:37:10
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:37:12
Red D
um But I did like it at the end when, okay, so I mean, now it's a while since I watched this, but, you know, these three kids actually were sent to this moon or planet to end their life and start the next phase and everything. And so the two kids just get, well, they get taken and then Trace is the last one.
00:37:30
Red D
and the Dreyans arrive and they like try and explain to Tuvok and I guess Janeway who's all in all that they're not trying to murder this child it's actually the end of life and um and they had attendants that were on the shuttle with them but they got you know they died in the crash so things went wrong and that's how they kind landed up in the situation um I can't remember now exactly how this line came up but
00:37:40
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:37:48
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:37:55
Red D
um I think maybe one of the Draenians like, I'm sorry you were alone. And Tracer was like, we weren't alone. Tuvok took care of us, even if we didn't behave as well as Falcon children.
00:38:04
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:38:05
Red D
Which I just thought was very sweet. And kind of tying into what I said earlier, it's like, yes, he... Maybe he's got that strong hold on his emotions, but by his actions towards other people, he can make them feel things. Like, safe, secure, taken care of. And...
00:38:21
El Platypo
Amen. Amen.
00:38:21
Red D
and Yeah, I'm just, you know, in this episode, they were in good hands, I guess, ah with Tuvok, given the situation that they were in. So, I like that moment.
00:38:29
Jen
Absolutely.
00:38:32
Jen
He's a safe pair of hands, that Tuvok.
00:38:35
Red D
Yes.
00:38:36
El Platypo
email
00:38:36
Red D
um um So, and Jenny, I think you might be the only person left. with Something else to add?
00:38:44
Jen
Well, this is a surprise to me. We're on our little notes thing. I only have four points. Everyone else has like 20. Thank God. How does
Minor Character's Death: Humor in Lack of Concern
00:38:51
Jen
this happen?
00:38:51
El Platypo
All
00:38:52
Jen
I'm afraid mine is very like trivial. and I mean,
00:38:56
Red D
I think it's the perfect note to end on, so go
00:38:59
Jen
Well, I just felt like there was zero concern for the death of the pilot. I mean, there's literally his, you know, I mean, not too far, obviously, we was with him when he died and, you know, that was quite emotional.
00:39:03
Red D
for it.
00:39:04
El Platypo
right.
00:39:05
Red D
oh
00:39:09
Red D
Yeah.
00:39:10
Jen
And then he took a lot of effort to like preserve his body. um But just when the crew found out when they're on in the bridge on Voyager, it was just, just swept under the carpet, carried on.
00:39:17
El Platypo
a Oh yeah, Bob's dead.
00:39:21
Jen
Yeah.
00:39:23
Red D
What about the other guy?
00:39:23
Jen
yeah that that
00:39:27
Red D
Yes, there was not a lot of concern shown for that crew member, gotta be honest.
00:39:33
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:39:35
Red D
It's like the crew member was only there so that they could say, found your pilot, he's dead. But we know there's two people.
00:39:40
Jen
yeah he was pure plot device and might have to choose him as my star player just because someone should recognize his valuable contribution nope
00:39:41
Red D
So like, wait, what's going on?
00:39:42
El Platypo
Oh dear. The definition of being a plot device.
00:39:46
Red D
That is the definition of a plot device. Ah. I mean...
00:39:55
El Platypo
Does it stay cool?
00:39:59
Red D
I think that's fair. So are we ready to move on to themes or anything? Final thoughts or anything? to that
00:40:05
El Platypo
No,
00:40:06
Red D
Jenny's nodding. Jamie's yawning. So let's move on.
00:40:08
El Platypo
no, no, no, no. That's not me yawning. That was me beard stroking. And then the the screen froze.
00:40:12
Red D
ah
00:40:15
El Platypo
Definitely no yawning there.
00:40:17
Red D
It's okay to yawn. So themes.
00:40:20
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:40:21
Red D
I'm going reverse order slightly. Jamie, want to kick us off?
00:40:25
El Platypo
No.
00:40:26
Red D
Okay, Jamie, back to you.
00:40:27
Jen
submit
00:40:27
El Platypo
some guess
00:40:29
Jen
Great, that means I get the easy ones. Deaf, the aging process, culture clashes.
00:40:32
Red D
Yes. Yes.
00:40:37
Jen
was That was it for me.
00:40:37
Red D
Culture clash. I mean, it is interesting that the first thing they took those reins to see was the warp core.
00:40:39
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:40:43
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:40:44
Jen
Hmm.
00:40:45
El Platypo
in In retrospect, that was unfortunate. Would be how you would write it up in the diplomatic report.
00:40:51
Jen
I think they were trying to impress them weren't they and then they realized they'd gone about it the wrong way.
00:40:53
El Platypo
Yeah. yeah
00:40:56
Red D
It made me think that what would you do first, I guess, with a first encounter? I have some ideas now, but what would you do first?
00:41:04
El Platypo
i would take them to the prayer room of which i imagine there is one
00:41:04
Jen
Seems like...
00:41:07
Red D
Yeah.
00:41:10
El Platypo
you know assuming that DEI things haven't been killed off at this stage of you know Star Trek.
00:41:11
Red D
yeah
00:41:17
El Platypo
um So I had two sort of themes, but um one of them I've already mentioned. i did get a little bit of the Machines Are Bad foreshadow of Star Trek Picard from their stance that they absolutely...
00:41:39
El Platypo
did not want to basically progress technologically and i found that quite interesting um i think there's a lot of foreshadowing and of that in star trek coming but obviously that hadn't been thought of at that stage um
00:41:54
Red D
Interesting that.
00:41:55
El Platypo
you Yeah. Also maybe speaks to the relationship to come with a completely overly technologified race in the Borg who are being foreshadowed at every turn this series.
00:42:10
El Platypo
Yeah,
00:42:11
Red D
Oh, the Borg. Sorry, he just...
00:42:14
El Platypo
you are terrifying.
00:42:15
Jen
haven't even got to them yet, have we? Gosh.
00:42:17
El Platypo
I know. That was me.
00:42:21
Red D
I was... Nice. I was struggling to think of a theme, but then um that moment popped into my head where Tuvok says something about how the Balkans like to just be honest with their children so that they can learn how to cope with stuff as they grow up.
00:42:32
El Platypo
Yeah. Really.
00:42:35
Red D
And I think... I'm not sure that was the theme, but... As I said, I think it's a bit of an infantilization of adults, children, as society has swung away from maybe being too harsh to but having too low expectations of any kind of... And...
00:42:59
Red D
and
00:43:01
El Platypo
Interesting.
00:43:01
Red D
ah but like what i but But like what I was discussing, this is not it but like people not wanting to give bad news or whatever because they're worried about their own feelings, not about what's best for everyone else.
00:43:01
El Platypo
Hi. Hi.
00:43:11
Red D
So I don't think it was a strong theme of this episode, but like, you know, people are resilient.
00:43:12
El Platypo
years
00:43:17
Red D
We should be honest with each other. Expect a standard from each other.
00:43:23
El Platypo
by
00:43:24
Red D
Again, don't think it was a major theme, but just that's kind of something that you guys haven't said.
00:43:29
Jen
Mmm.
00:43:29
Red D
um
00:43:30
El Platypo
No, no, we've done it. We've done it. All right.
00:43:32
Jen
Yeah, interesting cake.
00:43:32
Red D
Okay. Star player.
00:43:34
El Platypo
Start with that.
00:43:38
Red D
Well, I'm going to first because I'm usually, I'm sorry, I'm the moderator.
Star Player Debate: Tuvok's Role
00:43:42
Red D
going to just insert myself in here, but obviously Tuvok is a star player for me. Yeah.
00:43:47
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:43:49
Red D
yeah I mean, a he had to do a lot in this episode, um which I mean, all the characters and actors get a chance to do that, but he did pretty well.
00:43:53
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:43:57
El Platypo
Yep.
00:43:58
Red D
He sung a lullaby.
00:44:00
El Platypo
Yep.
00:44:01
Red D
delivered that very well, not in a very sappy, I think, or sentimental way, like in quite a nice way.
00:44:04
El Platypo
Yep. Yep. He did.
00:44:07
Red D
And yeah, then he got to participate in a very like private ceremony with Adrian and help her cross over.
00:44:15
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:44:18
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:44:18
Red D
So you guys go.
00:44:21
El Platypo
Yeah. Good choice.
00:44:22
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:44:24
El Platypo
Um,
00:44:26
El Platypo
I mean, I would like to do my typical thing of balancing the serious and well-made points that actually give credit where it's due by the lighter-hearted choice of I would like to give star player of the episode to Chakotay for avoiding repercussions to his career from sexualised body language.
00:44:48
Red D
You know, Jamie, I think we're getting to know each other so well because i was like, should I write this down? No, Jamie will. Like, as a point. Because that was a great moment.
00:44:56
El Platypo
Well, you know, we play differing roles on this podcast. You're everything that keeps it on track, and I'm frankly everything that everyone tries to avoid being associated with.
00:45:03
Red D
don't think so.
00:45:07
El Platypo
But anyway, Jenny.
00:45:07
Red D
oh
00:45:10
Jen
Well, I mean, i kind of feel like I should stick with my original slightly comedic choice of the the pilot who dies at the beginning, kicks it all off and you know,
00:45:17
Red D
I think you should.
00:45:19
El Platypo
Only person who does his job and doesn't complain the entire episode.
00:45:24
Jen
And no one even misses him. Apart from, you know, yeah, there's that ensign.
00:45:26
Red D
Ensign Bennett.
00:45:28
Jen
Yeah, that's good point.
00:45:30
Red D
but Yeah, that's his name, but yes, you someone is gonna miss him, because Tuvok does point out, oh, I think so-and-so is gonna really miss you.
00:45:37
El Platypo
ah so
00:45:38
Red D
Too bad, bye! Okay, bye.
00:45:39
El Platypo
is
00:45:40
Jen
yeah
00:45:42
Red D
Oh, okay. Well, I think that's a very good choice, if I may say so.
00:45:46
Jen
Well, thank you.
00:45:47
El Platypo
Excellent.
00:45:48
Red D
I think we are done. Oh, it's in record time.
00:45:50
El Platypo
That's appalling.
00:45:51
Jen
Yeah, almost the length of
00:45:51
El Platypo
No, wait, wait, time is out, time is out. Tune, tune, tune, tune.
00:45:55
Red D
June is coming. June is coming. Thank you, everybody, for listening.
00:45:57
Jen
is This is almost the length of a normal podcast.
00:46:01
Red D
We're getting there, guys. We're getting there.
00:46:03
El Platypo
It's going to be a tightly run ship now that folk know that I might be going from Wikipedia.
00:46:03
Jen
With no editing.
00:46:09
Jen
Ugh.
00:46:10
Red D
Yes, if you are a listener, ah listen carefully to some previous episodes and see if you could tell where Jamie was just making stuff I know.
00:46:21
Jen
So outraged by this.
00:46:24
El Platypo
And yet unsurprised.
00:46:24
Red D
As you said, you have a confession to make. I knew exactly what your confession was.
00:46:28
El Platypo
Ha ha ha ha!
00:46:30
Red D
Oh, sorry, i hit...
00:46:30
Jen
And I didn't. Oh.
00:46:33
Red D
I'm not even married to him, Jenny.
00:46:34
Jen
Yeah.
00:46:34
Red D
Okay.
00:46:34
El Platypo
yeah
00:46:35
Jen
Good.
00:46:36
Red D
I think I accidentally stopped the jingle.
00:46:36
El Platypo
You even went...
00:46:38
Red D
So I'm going hit stop. Don't go.