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We watch "Basics: Part 1" (S2 Ep.26)
16 Plays24 days ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Basics: Part 1”, in which the crew of Voyager are inextricably drawn into a Kazon trap.
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Theme music by Alain D
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Transcript
Podcasting Setup Confusion
00:00:00
El Platypo
So Red wants to know if she presses record and then starts the jingle, and just starts the jingle and then then presses record. Which did you do, Red?
00:00:08
Red D
ah I did hit for future reference for myself and all people involved in this podcast. I hit record and then I hit the jingle. But when we have a big break, I forget how everything works.
00:00:20
El Platypo
Wisdom for the ages, if you think we're not much podcasting.
00:00:20
Jen
We...
00:00:24
Jen
We have had a bit of a break.
00:00:26
Red D
Yes,
Lighthearted Banter
00:00:27
Red D
sorry guys. I went on holiday day and then it was...
00:00:29
Jen
How dare you! How dare you go on holiday!
00:00:33
Red D
Jamie, that's some very vapey dancing you're doing there. No T-Rex.
00:00:41
Red D
I we really should have a video podcast for the intro.
00:00:45
Jen
No, god no! i had ah someone video me rowing recently and uh... you know it felt like it was a you know I felt really uh you know like an elite brewer you know out on the water
Self-Criticism and Dance Moves
00:00:57
Red D
Yes.
00:00:57
Jen
and then I saw the video and I was horrified
00:00:57
El Platypo
Guys, I need to interrupt. I'm throwing down absolute pearls of dance moves and I've got video growing all my days.
00:01:05
Red D
I'm sure you look great, Jenny, but it's hard to not
00:01:06
El Platypo
I'm throwing gems here.
00:01:07
Red D
To be critical.
00:01:08
El Platypo
There's so much piss-taking opportunity for you people.
00:01:11
Red D
But no one can see what we're piss taking off. And now, Jenny, your story reminds me of something I discovered today.
Comparing Podcasts and Rowing Videos
00:01:17
Red D
So I'm in a jingle. I was listening to the Office Ladies podcast. I mean, I basically set up this podcast to promote all the other podcasts I listen to.
00:01:25
Red D
But it's not what I do.
00:01:25
El Platypo
So we're a vehicle for you to promote something else you're doing.
00:01:29
Red D
It's Office Ladies. And discovered something that I thought it was kind of surprising. Maybe I misunderstood. But they were talking about how like when you're a director, you're directing actors, you don't, it's kind of uncommon to show the actor how the takes are going because not all actors can take it.
00:01:47
Red D
And so they're talking about how they work this one director and then she's like, yeah, yeah, I just you know show them how it's going and then then they can see what I mean because they can see they're kind of doing it wrong. I'm like, yes, like how they always did in rowing.
00:01:58
Red D
And you would think that in acting, which is all on film, that would be,
00:02:02
El Platypo
It would be way more common.
00:02:04
Red D
I woke up and so i was kind of surprised.
00:02:06
Jen
That is really interesting.
00:02:06
Red D
ah But actors like Roe is, I guess, don't like seeing themselves on screen. so
00:02:13
El Platypo
Anyhow, welcome dear friends.
00:02:13
Jen
Yeah.
00:02:15
Red D
ah sorry jaie
00:02:15
El Platypo
Welcome to podcast listeners.
Voyager Episode Summary
00:02:18
El Platypo
Welcome, dear allegedly focused podcasters, to this episode, season two, episode 25, Voyager, Voyager's Children, Basics.
00:02:28
El Platypo
Now, Red, I'm looking at our episode notes, and I see under the one-minute summary that in the text that you write in, you're down to do the one-minute summary.
00:02:35
Red D
I can't.
00:02:36
El Platypo
So, Red...
00:02:37
Red D
I have never doubted you the one minute summary. This is your job. But for some reason, whether you're the facilitator, you throw it to me.
00:02:43
El Platypo
I have no idea why the bull's horns are pointing in this particular direction.
00:02:48
Red D
And the one time I did it, you were like, that wasn't very good.
00:02:48
El Platypo
but This is precisely why I'm trying to give you an opportunity to improve, Red.
00:02:50
Red D
so
00:02:51
Jen
Oh, gosh. ah hush
00:02:56
Red D
i will never improve. But here we go. Uh, ah
00:02:58
El Platypo
Now, that's fixed mindset and not the good attitude. Where's that growth mindset, eh, Red? Where's that growth mindset?
00:03:06
Red D
Well, I'm not prepared, but yes, it is episode. I guess it's the finale of the season, so we know it's going to be a cliffhanger. But Voyager falls into a trap set by Seska and the Kazon Distrum using Chakotay's child, I guess, as bait.
00:03:23
Red D
um And yeah, that's all I have to say about that.
Star Wars and SpongeBob Humor
00:03:29
El Platypo
is Is there a meme from a particular science fiction franchise, ah approximate similar sort of era, similar first word to Star Trek that you would care to reference in this situation?
00:03:46
Red D
I've never watched Star Wars, so no, I can't.
00:03:46
El Platypo
A certain admiral who looks a little bit like a a crab or a crustacean or even an octopus? Sorry?
00:03:54
Red D
Are we talking about SpongeBob SquarePants?
00:03:54
Jen
Oh, yes, yes.
00:03:56
El Platypo
he don't want to yeah want it so If you say Jar Jar Binks, I will burn your house down.
00:04:02
Red D
I said SpongeBob SquarePants and the octopus. Jamie, you seem to understand the reference.
00:04:07
Jen
I do, but i can't do i can't do the impression. There we go.
00:04:12
Red D
Oh, yeah.
00:04:16
Jen
Yeah, I knew that raw akbar. But
Chakotay's Summary Skills
00:04:18
El Platypo
i was I was desperate to do that today.
00:04:18
Red D
but That was very good.
00:04:21
El Platypo
um And thank you for laying me up for that. All you needed to do for your 60 seconds was that read.
00:04:27
Red D
i was reading our notes from the previous episode and I think all you, what did you say? Your only thing was like, Chakotay messed it up. What was that?
00:04:36
El Platypo
so Yeah, yeah.
00:04:36
Red D
That was your one minute summary or something.
00:04:37
Jen
Thank you.
00:04:38
El Platypo
That would have been so appropriate, this one.
00:04:40
Red D
Oh.
00:04:41
El Platypo
Chakotay ballsed it up.
00:04:41
Red D
Oh.
00:04:43
El Platypo
Chakotay really put his foot in it. Yeah, I...
00:04:46
Red D
Oh.
00:04:46
El Platypo
am Anyhow, yeah, we've we've even got Tony Harrison in this one, which I'm very, very happy about. um
00:04:52
Red D
oh
00:04:53
El Platypo
But no, that was a really, really good summary, apart from the obvious omission of an opportunity just to reduce it to a meme from a differing sci-fi franchise. Well done, Red.
00:05:04
Red D
thank you but that's
00:05:04
El Platypo
Jenny, how... ah initial reactions. How did you both feel about this?
Critique of Chakotay's Themes
00:05:10
El Platypo
As an episode.
00:05:11
Jen
ah it's not my favorite not my favorite it's got all of the things I'm not fan of that's the problem so it's all the Chakotay spiritual tribal stuff at the beginning which I just always find a little bit like it makes me cringe a little bit um and then the Seska stuff I just feels really so proper like episode of EastEnders and then obviously as you know the Kazon I'm basically just waiting for the really really good baddies to get here like the Borg you know and and as much as I hate the organ stealing ones, work even though they've they've already been but oh, horrible.
00:05:47
El Platypo
the phage
00:05:49
Jen
ah Oh, and what's the species 1472 possibly?
00:05:54
Red D
Oh, yes. yeah Oh my gosh, I forgot about them.
00:05:56
Jen
They're quite scary.
00:05:57
Red D
They're coming.
00:05:58
El Platypo
is that the are they named the sort oh no not the hunters but like the weird ones who exist in a weird liquid sphere sort of complete alternate sphere of reality species species or something
00:05:58
Red D
The hunters.
00:06:06
Jen
Yeah.
00:06:09
Jen
Yeah, and and and to interact Yeah, and they're the only species that the Borg ever have like a potential challenger in.
00:06:20
Jen
Anyway, the point is, I'm i'm i'm over the Kazon,
00:06:21
Red D
know.
Unexpected Enjoyment of Voyager Episode
00:06:24
Jen
guys.
00:06:24
Jen
I want to move on to pass the Kazon.
00:06:26
Red D
ah
00:06:27
El Platypo
The Kazon do feel very entry level as an adversary species.
00:06:31
Jen
they They are, they are.
00:06:34
Red D
Well, it was funny because I saw your notes before I started watching. and Not all of them, but just your, meh. Not my favorite.
00:06:41
Jen
decision
00:06:43
Red D
ah So I kind of was like, oh yeah, it's not going to be one of my favorites either. But then I actually, not I want to say a few controversial things in this episode.
00:06:50
Jen
Oh, i see, I did it on purpose, Red.
00:06:50
Red D
Yeah.
00:06:51
El Platypo
oh
00:06:52
Jen
I did that for that very reason. See, I was, you know, setting your expectations so that you would enjoy it more. That's what it was.
00:06:58
Red D
I think I did, that up and I'm enjoying it.
00:07:00
El Platypo
bret Are you about to say the Star Trek equivalent of... No, i'm not going to say that, actually. I was going to say one of the sentences people sometimes give as a red flag, that they might have ah particularly objectionable views.
00:07:12
Red D
Trigger warning?
00:07:13
El Platypo
news No, don't use. But they always try and voice it as, you're not allowed to talk about these sorts of things, as though they're being silenced. Are you about to give us the Star Trek equivalent of those?
00:07:25
Red D
I don't think so.
00:07:25
El Platypo
Because I don't know what it is, and I want to hear it.
00:07:27
Red D
But I think like you know sometimes you're in a different headspace and you end up enjoying something more than you expect. So a couple of things that Jenny mentioned that she didn't enjoy, i kind of was really drawn to this time around.
00:07:39
Jen
Well, you are a Chakotay fan, so this makes sense.
00:07:39
El Platypo
Ooh, deep breath.
00:07:41
Red D
That's true. This is true.
00:07:42
El Platypo
Wait, aren't you a Chakotin fan, Jenny?
00:07:46
Jen
I... this is a bit meh.
00:07:49
Red D
The
00:07:49
El Platypo
I'm not a spoiler, are you really not?
00:07:50
Jen
He's not up there. I love B'Elanna, Janeway, the Borg.
00:07:54
Red D
war.
00:07:54
Jen
and i quite like Harry and Paris.
00:07:57
El Platypo
Who's his favourite character, the Borg?
00:07:58
Jen
I love the Borg. Brilliant. Oh, and when there's a certain attractive blonde lady who turns up later on, who I really like her character as well.
00:08:04
Red D
Oh, yes.
00:08:10
Jen
Yeah, so Chikoti's quite far down on my list.
00:08:12
El Platypo
yeah
00:08:15
El Platypo
Interesting. You're playing a poker face after I asked if the blonde character was Princess Leia, which tells me all that I need to know.
00:08:23
Jen
this
00:08:23
El Platypo
um Fair enough.
00:08:25
Red D
What did you think, Jamie?
Frustration with Cliffhangers
00:08:27
El Platypo
I just hate Star Trek to be continued episodes.
00:08:30
Red D
Ha ha ha ha!
00:08:32
El Platypo
I mean, maybe it's really childish of me that the whole thing about, you know, Am I drawn in and do I get the whole Seska, Chakotay ongoing deepening plot connection or you know do I find it all a bit vaguely ridiculous due to the fact that they're basically in an ongoing conflict with an enemy who basically has coral for hair?
00:08:57
Jen
Thank you.
00:09:00
El Platypo
i hate the fact I'm dodging that particular dichotomy by focusing on just, oh, you hate TVC episodes. It was quite good, though. It was quite good.
00:09:10
El Platypo
um But I just... You sort of feel like it's being set up to be this whole thing that's going to be reversed by so either some deus ex machiner or someone just reversing the entire thing at the last moment because they've been overlooked and saving the day. But, like, I kind of like it when it's...
00:09:28
El Platypo
It's not as realistic as some of the latest Star Trek series are, like Star Trek Discovery or things like that, or Star Trek Picard, but a little bit more sort of believable, like this is just the universe and the story building. Whereas I always follow feel like to be continued episodes are always going to be like, you're in a really dire situation, but it's going to be turned like that, like the end of a Doctor Who episode.
00:09:52
Red D
Oh, well, they are on a pickle, but someone is going to have to tap into their original talents to help, if I can remember correctly, but it's been a while.
00:10:00
El Platypo
Really? Are we talking about the doctor's abilities to really, really annoy people?
00:10:03
Jen
Oh, yes.
00:10:06
Red D
Not the doctor.
00:10:07
Jen
No.
00:10:08
El Platypo
Are we talking about the serial killer?
00:10:08
Jen
Do you know, this is the thing. Although, yeah, like this this is thing. I think that the second half of this one, as as in the next episode, I do actually really like because there's, like, the stories that they're setting up in this episode get interesting in the second one.
00:10:19
El Platypo
Okay.
00:10:23
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:10:25
Jen
So, like, the Suda one.
00:10:25
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:10:26
Jen
The Suda and the Doctor basically is, like, fugitives on the Kazon ship trying to, like, um rescue everyone and obviously tom i think at some point come coming to the rescue though anyway i'm sorry i'm totally ruining the next episode
00:10:38
Red D
No, but I think, I mean, maybe there was a lot of setup in this episode, which is perhaps what contributed to less enjoyment.
00:10:43
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:10:45
Jen
yeah that's a really good point i think that is a part of it right if it it felt like a lot of backstory rather than an actual story at this point but the next one we get into the story
00:10:55
Red D
Mm-hmm.
Cat Interrupts
00:10:56
El Platypo
Yeah, I'd just like to point out also that there was a certain cat who was enjoying her voice so much, she just jumped onto my lap, brushed me under the nose with her tail and then jumped off.
00:11:04
Red D
oh
00:11:06
El Platypo
But anyway, yeah, ah that was interesting, interesting and varied reactions. So let's let's talk about the things that we liked and we noticed this episode.
Seska-Chakotay Baby Drama
00:11:16
El Platypo
Jenny, do you want do you want to kick us off?
00:11:18
Jen
Oh, well, okay. I feel like i probably don't have that many of this one. So I'll do my best. um I think I've already kind of mentioned the first one. I think the Seska Chakotay baby story, i just find like a bit so properly and a bit
00:11:31
Red D
thank
00:11:32
El Platypo
Mm.
00:11:37
Jen
you know, melodramatic, I don't enjoy it much, and that's probably contributing to, and they you know, it's running on as well, like it runs across so many episodes as well, I'm quite looking forward to the conclusion of that one, although I actually can't really remember what happened, so it'll be interesting to find out, but I don't I feel like I covered that, um I have another one, oh, go on, Rhonda,
00:11:37
El Platypo
Mm.
00:11:47
El Platypo
Mm. Mm. Mm.
00:11:55
Red D
Me neither.
00:12:00
Red D
But no, no, no, you can't use it all up straight away.
00:12:04
El Platypo
You can't skip ahead. Hey, I'm the moderator. If she wants to skip ahead, she can skip ahead. carry on.
00:12:08
Jen
Thank you.
Chakotay's Conflict
00:12:10
Red D
i was going to say, because I had a point about the baby storyline a bit, which, because I didn't really say it in the summary, we should say, I guess, Seska's claiming she stole Kote's DNA and took create the baby or fertilize the baby or something like that. And so that's kind of how they get drawn into this trap because she sends a distress message saying, Kala's found out that it's not his baby and now he's going yeah and to take revenge. But I thought it was quite interesting. oh I was a little bit surprised. so like I don't know, but ah even though he's considering, Chakotay's considering like, you know, going off to Seska and the baby,
00:12:50
Red D
He is very resist resistant to accept the baby as his. Like he has, you know, in that prayer scene him with his dad, I guess he's really anti the baby, I guess. I was wondering if you thought it was like because he felt betrayed or because he felt like it was going to put Voyager in danger if he accepted this baby as his own, because that would kind of lead to some action that, yeah, it's just like, yes.
00:13:00
El Platypo
yeah
00:13:12
El Platypo
know Can I build on that? Because my initial reaction was like, there are complex themes there because I can understand how his father's metaphor to resolve the situation.
00:13:15
Red D
Yes.
00:13:23
El Platypo
Well, many of our forebears were raped by white invaders of America but their children were accepted as part of the tribe and many of them grew to be great members of it but which is you know very very neat and eventually the thing that Brickian brings to Koté to a point of okay going to have to accept this child but I mean there's an element in there of it's not just betrayal but also there's elements of rape to what Seska does to him in terms of
00:13:55
Red D
Ah. Ah.
00:13:56
El Platypo
or at the very least of violation as well as betrayal in that stealing of him and stealing
00:14:05
El Platypo
stealing and actually coercive connection to him in such a way that he is compromised in a way that will lead to him being unable to prevent the crew being manipulated into danger in exactly the way that actually pans out so one one can understand
00:14:25
El Platypo
huge conflict on his part i totally get the line that you're giving the the view that you're giving that that whole element of he's bringing his friends into danger and resents that but also that element of violation and rape isn't quite the right word but it doesn't feel a million miles off it yeah non-consensual i don't know
00:14:46
Red D
But it was not consensual, I guess.
00:14:52
Red D
Yeah, good point.
00:14:55
El Platypo
I don't know. Those are the things.
00:14:57
Red D
That does help explain his reaction because normally he's so like, don't know, kind of kind in a way and wise. And then was like, wow.
00:15:04
El Platypo
like He's like, yeah, you think of him almost as one of the father figures of the crew.
00:15:09
Red D
Yes, so maybe him being so rejecting of this baby was a bit like, oh, okay, something's going on.
00:15:09
El Platypo
Along with
00:15:13
El Platypo
him and Tuvok and Paris.
00:15:16
Red D
So he's being funny. Yeah.
00:15:20
El Platypo
um i said wow I think Paris probably is father to a a lot of babies, but maybe not one thing. ah But anyway, I digress. um Cool. Any more on the Seska Chikose soap opera, as you term it, baby story, Jed?
00:15:36
Jen
it yeah sorry to sort of trivialize it and there are a lot of really like interesting themes and points in there about you know like accepting don't know from a woman's perspective if you if you were raped and then you what would you do with the child and you know accepting that child and the difficulties around that well I can only imagine um so yeah it is it is kind of hard hitting and um
00:15:44
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:15:51
El Platypo
um
00:16:06
Jen
Took me to undermine the storyline.
00:16:09
Red D
That's okay, you cannot like it.
00:16:13
El Platypo
May I sort of build on that a little bit? Because I think one of the things that didn't, that grated with me a little bit was, um now I've put it down a, it's a trap theme from Star Wars, but, ah meme from Star Wars even, but it just sort of didn't ring true to me.
00:16:32
El Platypo
that the crew would be that easily manipulated into something so, so obvious. i mean, there were a number of points at which the plot didn't sort of hang together. So for instance, that a ship as technologically as advanced as Voyager, the only thing it could ah come up with was mirror holograms, number one, and that something so obvious they'd just so blithely go into, number two. Did that ring true for your good selves?
Manipulation by Seska and Kazon
00:17:01
Red D
Well, yeah, I mean, it was a bit frustrating, I guess, but then the episode wouldn't have happened. But in a sense, they were like walking into the trap with their eyes open because they discussed, like, could she be manipulating, Seska be manipulating us and stuff like that.
00:17:15
Red D
But then they let that, they let that Kazon walk freely.
00:17:17
El Platypo
But
00:17:20
Red D
Sorry, they would let that Kazon walk freely. ah You know, that Kazon that they find stranded in their death on a shuttle or something. They rescue him and he's allowed to walk freely around the ship. I'm like, I'm sorry, why is that happening here?
00:17:31
Jen
Yes, yes, yes.
00:17:32
Red D
So yes, elements of it for sure.
00:17:32
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:17:35
El Platypo
And he's not kept under guard, so he can just rip off his toenail and basically blow up the ship with an exploding toenail, apparently.
00:17:35
Red D
was like, yeah. oh
00:17:42
El Platypo
Which is a new trick if you can... ohlthough Oh, God, as I remember, i'm sort of feeling bit disgusting. um Yeah, so it it didn't particularly ring true for me. and also, we talk so much about how it's like a crack crew and, you know, the best technical specialist, weapon specialist, the captain's shrewd and cunning leadership.
00:18:02
El Platypo
And so I just, it doesn't ring true to me that how easily they run into this particular trap. um Yeah, also, yeah, go for it.
00:18:14
Jen
I mean, I think that um from the start, it was always um introduced as Kazon have lots of really powerful ships.
00:18:25
Jen
um But it was just they were a bit dumb. And so they were easily to outmaneuver. But now they have Seska. She's sort of the brains behind her And she has all this like high level Kardashian strategy you know so I think the idea is that now they are quite a threat um and so i think as Red said with the trap ah they could see that it could be a trap it very likely it was a trap but they didn't really have any other options so
00:18:53
El Platypo
Look at them cross-fertilizing their strategic threat profile through the leverage of diverse knowledge lenses.
00:19:01
Red D
Can you throw synergies in there, Jamie? And then you're ready. Knock
00:19:04
El Platypo
I don't really think it's synergies when it's cross-fertilization.
00:19:07
Red D
it out the park. But yeah, that is a very good point, Jamie.
00:19:12
Jen
I mean that did ring true for me, that kind of strawberry line.
00:19:16
Red D
Yeah.
00:19:16
El Platypo
No.
00:19:16
Red D
I guess, I mean, that's why they also, I guess, the motivation is strong enough. This potential child of Chakotas. But... But I was also wondering what would he do? Would he take the child away from Dakota? I mean, from Seska? Anyway, that's the whole separate thing.
00:19:30
Red D
But it seemed like a...
00:19:31
El Platypo
save it save the child who apparently anyway i have
00:19:36
Red D
No high court judge would approve of that custody arrangement.
00:19:39
Jen
Yeah, I mean, like, what are they going to do? Co-parent? But does she, she doesn't want to be a voyager.
00:19:42
Red D
Yeah, I don't know.
00:19:43
Jen
He doesn't want to leave voyager.
00:19:43
El Platypo
yeah like what one of the parenting things where that she's nicked your sperm and fertilized herself and is clearly unfit psychologically to you know raise the child
00:19:44
Jen
What are they going to do
00:19:54
El Platypo
What does divorce law have to say about that? But yeah, sorry, Reg, we've tarried far too much on my Star Wars meme. To you, my friend, to you.
Suda's Dangerous Tendencies
00:20:06
Red D
um Well, I guess I was very excited to see Souter again, the serial killer, ah because it's the actor Brad Dourif.
00:20:13
El Platypo
His weird dead eyes.
00:20:17
Red D
I don't know how to pronounce his surname. I hope I'm getting that right. But I also swore that I saw that he had died on Twitter and that I did some research and he is still alive, apparently. So I'm happy to hear that. And um I think we've discussed her.
00:20:28
Jen
and
00:20:29
El Platypo
How many people has killed? How many people has he killed?
00:20:34
Red D
Well, I really need to up my film watching because I love him and know him from Star Trek Voyager, Lord of the Rings, Murder, She Wrote, and Psych.
00:20:41
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:20:45
Red D
That's where I've seen him. But when I was looking at his IMDb now, and I don't think we discussed this.
00:20:51
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:20:51
Red D
Well, I think we discussed that he was in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, which I need to watch.
00:20:55
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:20:56
Red D
And he was the voice of Chucky.
00:20:58
El Platypo
Oh my gosh!
00:20:58
Jen
Oh.
00:20:59
Red D
Which I've never watched, but I think is pretty...
00:20:59
El Platypo
Wow!
00:21:02
El Platypo
Terrifying.
00:21:03
Jen
la
00:21:04
Red D
yes uh but i was yeah sort of but yeah thought he was and again he did a brilliant job he at the start of the episode he seems to be doing really well and he's like i guess he's confined to quarters he's doing all this uh um plant research uh he's doing the meditation or whatever with tubac and he has the proposition for the captain which is to um
00:21:05
El Platypo
so up can we call him Chucky for the rest of this? Oh, I'm calling him Chucky, I'm sorry.
00:21:09
Jen
No, love his name, Suda.
00:21:11
El Platypo
Chucky.
00:21:23
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:21:30
El Platypo
use GM crops, isn't it?
00:21:32
Red D
yeah Yeah, you know, like to help out with the, what's it called?
00:21:36
El Platypo
Hydroponics, they.
00:21:36
Red D
Something. Hydroponics Bay, yeah. But he but he can he's not asking to, you know, leave his quarters anything. He can do it with all this equipment.
00:21:42
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:21:43
Red D
And ah thought it was very interesting, the scene where Tuvok brings Janeway to discuss his proposal to him.
00:21:49
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:21:50
Red D
And when he when she says, great, I'm going to talk to a kiss and think about it, and he kind of loses it. ah because and you're like oh he's not fully rehabilitated and because I'm so interested in true crime and I guess what drives people to crime or and things like that it's like he can he can behave as long as he's getting his own way the minute he's kind of getting some pushback or not getting in his own way even though it seems to be for a good cause he can't handle his emotional reaction which lands up
00:21:58
El Platypo
Yeah. Can't even know.
00:22:02
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:22:04
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:22:10
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:22:18
El Platypo
Yeah. Hmm.
00:22:24
Red D
him not getting what he wants. It was kind it's like, if you could just ah obey the laws of society, you would get further, I guess.
00:22:27
El Platypo
Yes. Yes.
00:22:33
Red D
I mean, I'm not, that's really simplifying. But I thought he just did a very good job because he suddenly turned and everyone was like, that's enough. You know, like Janeway's like, I need to leave.
00:22:42
El Platypo
I'm leaving before you murder me, with or without a genetically modified plant that may or may not rise up to be the master race and destroy us all.
00:22:48
Red D
And you're like,
00:22:51
El Platypo
Would have been my first one?
00:22:51
Red D
so, I just, interesting. interesting scene there, interesting characterization and I think great acting. I enjoyed that.
00:23:00
El Platypo
challenge question would you let him improve the efficiency of your ship's hydroponics bay with genetically modified triffids that he created sorry plants that he created
00:23:12
Red D
I have not watched that Trippett's movie, so... um what that But yes, I think, well,
00:23:19
El Platypo
you would you wouldn't be worried about him like creating these weird sort of uh herbal aliens that hunt the crew down the corridors of the ship
00:23:24
Red D
No, because he could be closely. don't think that's possible.
00:23:29
El Platypo
How do you know?
00:23:30
Red D
So...
00:23:30
El Platypo
This is, this is actually, what date is this?
00:23:34
Red D
24? two it I don't know.
00:23:37
El Platypo
Science can do a lot, Red.
00:23:38
Red D
But...
00:23:39
El Platypo
Science can do a lot in 400 years.
00:23:43
Red D
I think ultimately, yes. But, you know, with the knowledge that he is still dangerous. So he should be monitored.
00:23:53
El Platypo
You have a lot of faith in monitoring.
00:23:55
Red D
That's true. And and you know, I found out recently those ankle braces they put on criminals, no one's monitoring them. So yes, my faith must be revoked.
00:24:00
El Platypo
um
00:24:04
El Platypo
Yes, exactly. There's never enough monitors to monitor everything. Excellent. Well, I think that brings the wheel of fortune or conversation back to you, my good Jennifer.
00:24:12
Red D
Hmm.
The Doctor's Humor
00:24:17
Jen
Oh, did we have your comment, Jamie?
00:24:20
El Platypo
Yeah, we had... a It's a trap.
00:24:24
Jen
Okay, um in that case, i was just going to say that classic doc comedy moment I really enjoyed. Got quite a few, but I quite enjoyed Dys Theron really early on, actually, where, you know, he he, you know, very tentatively says, oh, this really isn't my field of expertise, but I i do have an idea here. You know, I'm a doctor. This is a warfare strategy, but And then the moment Janeway says, any opinion on any subject matter is welcome.
00:24:53
Jen
Really? Well, in that case, you may expect many more opinions in the future.
00:24:58
El Platypo
ah literally She literally flinches says well.
00:24:59
Jen
love that.
00:25:01
El Platypo
It's hilariously played.
00:25:03
Red D
She's unleashed a flood. Yeah,
00:25:06
El Platypo
She messed with the ball.
00:25:09
Red D
yeah that was very good. and I wish I could remember what comes in the future episodes, because I'm sure he's going to have an opinion on everything going forward.
00:25:17
El Platypo
no i have to be brutally honest. like May it merely jump from that to to one of mine?
00:25:24
Red D
Yeah.
00:25:24
El Platypo
Because it's Doctor Referential. I can't believe that no one else picked up on the fact that we ended up with the Doctor's hologram being beamed into space by a hologram malfunction, um getting sort of tasered multiple times, but apparently distracting at least 3Ks from cruises.
00:25:34
Red D
Yes.
00:25:42
Red D
What happened there? Because I think I looked down to write something and then suddenly the doctor was just badly CGI spinning in space.
00:25:49
El Platypo
but
00:25:49
Jen
Thank you.
00:25:49
Red D
I was like, what is going down?
Hologram Chaos
00:25:52
El Platypo
I mean, to be honest, what it looked like was pretty much what actually happened.
00:25:52
Red D
What's going on?
00:25:56
El Platypo
ah though there was So one of the tricks that they came up with was how to project holograms of the ship into space. And one of the one of the appreciating moments was three minutes before the battle, the doctor saying, we should run more one more diagnostic.
00:26:12
Red D
Oh, yes.
00:26:13
El Platypo
And Balana Torres saying, I really feel we shouldn't. Balana going, no, we're three minutes out. And the doctor saying, I'm not worried. It'll be fine. This is great.
00:26:25
El Platypo
ah Three minutes before, after they threw off three ship holograms, it malfunctioning, and then their fourth hologram flourish being the Doctor in space, like this staked-out offering for the Kazon.
00:26:39
Red D
It was quite funny and also reminded me of when the Kaizong beam people out into space and they die.
00:26:44
Jen
Oh, yeah.
00:26:44
Red D
So, at least the Doctor can survive.
00:26:46
El Platypo
Well...
00:26:47
Jen
That is a nasty death.
00:26:47
El Platypo
well if they If they would beam out folk who haven't even committed a crime, is there that much difference morally between the Starfleet crew and the Kazon crew?
00:26:58
El Platypo
That's what I leave you with.
00:27:00
Red D
Okay. Well...
00:27:02
El Platypo
Holograms of people too.
00:27:04
Red D
That shouldn't have happened, that's correct. But he survived, so it's all good.
00:27:08
El Platypo
I mean, it's all about intent rather than outcome. Anyhow, to you, Red, speak to me in my dreams.
00:27:16
Red D
Okay, yes. Sorry, Jenny. This is a bit controversial now.
00:27:20
El Platypo
o
00:27:20
Jen
Oh, I love controversial.
00:27:21
Red D
and but
00:27:21
El Platypo
You're not actually going to speak to me in my dreams, because that's a bit controversial if you do, yeah.
00:27:24
Red D
at And also, this is an excuse to tell us share my story about my own dreams, which people hate listening to apparently, but going to share them anyway.
00:27:25
El Platypo
Aww.
00:27:29
El Platypo
Yeah. Hmm.
00:27:31
Jen
I love listening to the dream.
00:27:33
Red D
But I did quite enjoy the scene where Chakotay is struggling, I guess, with finding out he's the father ah or through no effort of his own.
00:27:39
El Platypo
and
00:27:41
Red D
um And so he has that prayer ceremony and a He says something like, speak to me in my dreams. And he instantly goes into that like state where he's able to communicate with his father, I think.
00:27:50
El Platypo
Hmm. And he's touching this weird vibrating rock.
00:27:52
Red D
Yeah.
00:27:55
Red D
Yes. But I was like, I mean, I guess because my life is a bit uncertain now, I was like, gee whiz, I wish I could just pray someone would appear and tell me what to do. I mean, seriously, that would be great. ah But also when he said speak to me in my dreams, I was really enjoying the scene. And I was like, oh, no, please don't speak to in my dreams. Because i I'm sure I've told you these guys, but most of my dreams are anxiety dreams or anxious dreams.
00:28:17
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:28:17
Red D
And 99% of them are me trying to find the details for my flight before I and like And I can't find my flight details on my phone or my email.
00:28:25
El Platypo
um
00:28:26
Red D
And so i don't know what time to be at the airport. And I was like, and if I dream, it will be this dream. And now when i was in Cape Town, I was trying to check in for my flight on the the return and my laptop just froze and I couldn't, and I was searching for the check-in and i couldn't find it. And I was like, wait, am I dreaming?
00:28:43
Red D
Or is this real?
00:28:43
El Platypo
ah
00:28:44
Red D
Because I actually had a dream that was so realistic in the dream.
00:28:44
Jen
Am
00:28:47
Red D
I was like, no, maybe this is a dream, but I stayed in the dream and I didn't like get out of it. So now i was like, wait, am I, is this happening in real life? Or was it dream?
00:28:55
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:28:55
Jen
am I in the matrix?
00:28:57
Red D
Exactly. And then my computer unfroze and I found my check-in details.
00:28:58
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:29:00
Red D
i was like, no, it's the real world.
00:29:01
El Platypo
oh
00:29:03
Red D
But so for many reasons, I just wanted to point out that scene.
00:29:04
Jen
Oh my goodness.
00:29:08
Red D
um But how nice it must be to have that spiritual connection to something that can give you answers and certainty.
00:29:14
Jen
Yes, it was a very, yeah,
00:29:17
Red D
Hmm.
00:29:18
Jen
yeah it's a very calming dream that one. Yeah, I wish mine were more like that. I think I have similar ones to you read. They're not really flight placed, but the, the, so I read something years ago that talked about how dreams are not really about the content, like where you are, who's in them, what's going on, but they're about the emotions you experience whilst having them.
00:29:26
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:29:33
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:29:38
Jen
And that sort of tells you more about what the dreams to do with and
00:29:40
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:29:42
Jen
So mine are all different kinds of scenarios, people, content. But yeah, I think they're usually anxiety related.
00:29:48
Red D
ah
00:29:48
Jen
i'm I'm often like falling or running or, you know, trying desperately to chase something that I can never catch.
00:29:50
Red D
Oh no.
00:29:54
Jen
That kind of thing, you know, a sense of panic.
00:29:54
Red D
Yes. Yes. Ah, that's so irritating.
00:30:01
Jen
It is.
00:30:01
El Platypo
Oh, fair enough.
00:30:03
Red D
So that's my point done, Jamie.
00:30:06
El Platypo
Is it though? Is it truly?
00:30:09
Red D
Well yes, I need a lot of therapy to get all these dreams, but don't think we can do that yet.
00:30:14
El Platypo
just want you to know that you've got the space for that though.
00:30:14
Jen
CBT.
00:30:16
El Platypo
Yeah, if you want to. um Jenny, over to you good self.
00:30:23
Jen
Well, I do have one, but it's extremely short. So in fact, I might just go on a little...
00:30:30
Red D
Oh no, but I think we can talk about this a lot. so
00:30:31
El Platypo
There's a lot to with that.
00:30:32
Jen
Oh, I mean, absolutely. I definitely i definitely plan on you know getting to this, but I do want to go on a little mini tangent if people don't mind.
00:30:39
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:30:39
Jen
It's like a dream-based tension.
00:30:39
Red D
Yes, no?
00:30:42
Jen
So people who hate listening to other people's dreams, just tune out now, just mute for like 30 seconds.
00:30:42
Red D
Okay.
00:30:47
Jen
um But I have always remembered the stream I had when COVID first hit um because basically it was wild. Like obviously, you know, the sort of situation was right at the early stages that, you know, there was this thinking that, oh, there's this disease that's coming somewhere from China and lots of, you know, blaming China and silly of things like that.
00:31:08
Red D
Yeah.
00:31:09
Jen
um And, you know, there was like concerns about family members dying, particularly older family members. Anyway, had this anxiety dream and it was ah basically ah like I was in a war ah with China.
00:31:21
Jen
And it was a bit like I was with my dad and all my all my older family family members.
00:31:21
Red D
Oh my gosh.
00:31:23
El Platypo
She was winning.
00:31:26
Jen
And we were sort of, it was a mix of like, I don't know, some kind of scene from a World War I where you're on the beaches, you know, youre on a beach, and but we're having missiles.
00:31:28
Red D
my cars
00:31:34
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:31:36
Jen
um targeted us on the beach from China.
00:31:38
Red D
Oh my gosh, this sounds awful.
00:31:40
Jen
Yeah. Basically, it was obviously an anxiety dream about this disease coming over from China, but in a sort of warfare environment.
00:31:46
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:31:51
Jen
And I woke up from that. like I did that one. I thought was, that was quite obvious what that was about. But I just thought that is a kind of, wow, fascinating brain interpretation that my mind did there to create that dream.
00:31:56
Red D
Yes.
00:31:57
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:32:04
Red D
That is fascinating because that dream was actually almost literally interpretable. Like, I mean, you don't have to do much dream analysis to figure out what's going on there, but I can't, I'm just thinking about how realistic sometimes my dreams are.
00:32:12
Jen
yes
00:32:17
Red D
And the idea of being like in a war zone in a dream, I find very, very unpleasant.
00:32:21
Jen
Yes, it was very, it was very, very like anxiety ridden, basically.
00:32:23
Red D
Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:28
Jen
Like nothing actually happened, which I think was another element of it being COVID because like nothing had happened, you know, no one, but for fortunately nothing did.
00:32:29
Red D
yeah
00:32:38
Jen
I was very lucky to not lose any family members or anything like that. and So it was just very um like suspense, anxiety filled, you know, and just trying to avoid missiles and hiding and not putting, not lighting fires.
00:32:47
Red D
no Yeah, yeah.
00:32:54
Jen
You know, it was sort mix of like the Blitz.
00:32:56
Red D
Gosh, yeah, yeah.
00:32:57
Jen
It's like my movie knowledge of wars, you know, like the Blitz in London where you you don't want to have your lights on and that kind of thing.
00:32:58
Red D
no
00:33:04
Jen
It was a little random.
00:33:05
Red D
It sounds very involved and tiring.
00:33:05
Jen
Anyway.
00:33:07
Red D
Wow. I hope you only had it once.
00:33:08
Jen
Yeah. I did, yeah. It was just the one right at the start. ah Anywho, far more hilarious and, ah you know, less anxiety-inducing things.
00:33:18
Jen
and
00:33:19
Red D
not really.
00:33:20
El Platypo
yeah
00:33:21
Jen
That's a good point. The toenail, the toenail. Oh, my God. How revolting.
00:33:25
Red D
Oh, like no, Jamie.
00:33:26
El Platypo
what What actually happens in this scene?
00:33:29
Jen
i think we look.
00:33:29
El Platypo
Well, our viewers don't want to know.
00:33:29
Red D
I don't...
00:33:31
Jen
No, no, no.
00:33:31
El Platypo
Our viewers don't want to know.
00:33:31
Red D
I might mute the podcast for 30 seconds.
00:33:34
Jen
We're assuming the viewers have watched or they know what we're talking about.
00:33:35
El Platypo
Reda's currently on mute because she's off vomiting.
00:33:39
Jen
But um it does remind me, though, of when I lost both of my big toenails.
00:33:46
El Platypo
wing
00:33:46
Jen
and Sorry, God.
Explosive Humor
00:33:49
El Platypo
No, I was just going to ask, did did you lose them while you were blowing a hole to escape in a Quadra-class spaceship in the Delta Quadrant?
00:33:56
Jen
like Yeah, suicide bombing. No, I was i was not doing that.
00:33:58
El Platypo
Not... like plug an eat
00:33:59
Jen
No, oh I climbed a mountain and on the way down, i went too fast, clearly.
00:34:01
El Platypo
um
00:34:05
Jen
And then the next day they both fell off.
00:34:09
Red D
You did what? And then they fell off?
00:34:11
Jen
They both fell off the next day and there were they were bruised, I think, and they just sort of gradually came off.
00:34:16
Red D
Yeah.
00:34:18
Jen
But they grew back.
00:34:18
Red D
Oh.
00:34:19
Jen
So all is good. And then interesting, my sister, like a year, that was ages ago. i mean, that was like 15 years ago. And then a couple of years ago, my sister was telling me that the same thing had happened to her.
00:34:31
Jen
I think it's quite common.
00:34:32
Red D
Oh.
00:34:33
El Platypo
you
00:34:33
Red D
Yeah, yeah. I definitely won fell off after running or something.
00:34:35
El Platypo
Weird big feet. Big toes on your feet. Sorry. Not weird big feet. um Noted. Now, how do we think this works? Excuse me, suddenly seem to have the hiccups, which could be an interesting challenge to face.
00:34:49
El Platypo
How do we think this works as a plot device for how the mighty Voyager is finally shot through its Achilles heel or toe nail?
00:35:00
Red D
Well, I think it works because you'd close your eyes and you stop watching for a while and then you open them and the cruise being, the voyage is being boarded and you like, I guess it makes sense, but I wasn't watching because the toenail put me off.
00:35:12
Red D
But,
00:35:12
El Platypo
Oh, I'm whole disgust the audience so much that they don't see your unlikely plot device device. I love That old China.
00:35:21
Red D
what did you think?
00:35:22
El Platypo
nice Yeah, I guess. i have whole I mean, I have a lot of holes with a lot of this plot, but you know it's been plotted by Seska, and she's a diabolical genius, I guess it works.
00:35:36
El Platypo
Maybe.
00:35:36
Red D
I wasn't quite sure why because I was like, i didn't even know what he had achieved, I guess because I was put off by toenail and I was watching through my fingers. um
00:35:45
El Platypo
All in the side, that side ah couldn't be fixed because the secondary computes were down because they kept targeting the stop on the cells.
00:35:53
Red D
Yeah, but those, that, I guess but yeah it wasn't, I mean, to point out one of the holes, i guess that you're alluding to is, haven't they already achieved that by target all the ships targeting that cell, as you say?
00:36:05
Red D
Did that guy really need to Just on more systems? I don't know.
00:36:09
El Platypo
Well, until he disarmed the systems, the computer wasn't reli on relying on the secondary ones.
00:36:15
Red D
Okay.
00:36:15
El Platypo
It's because the fact that the secondary ones were gone, that his was effective in the first place.
00:36:20
Red D
Okay.
00:36:20
El Platypo
Because otherwise they switched the secondary ones and they would have fine.
00:36:20
Red D
but
00:36:22
El Platypo
But they couldn't, and they couldn't self-destruct, because you needed the secondary machines to self-destruct.
00:36:28
Red D
Yes, but I thought it was literally from the attack on the outside, not from his.
00:36:29
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:36:30
El Platypo
yeah I was at the academy, and I know my shit.
00:36:32
Jen
since
00:36:33
Red D
Okay. Well, then you say so.
00:36:34
El Platypo
What you're saying is an entirely hole-filled plot device with more gaps in it than the Swiss cheese.
00:36:42
Red D
I did find that it just destroyed one of my points with me. I found it interesting that we saw Jakote praying and then I guess him praying before he and committed suicide.
00:36:51
El Platypo
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Spiritual Themes
00:36:55
El Platypo
I think there's a parallel being drawn there that as much as we may empathise with one side, both sides have more commonalities than they may realise, especially in their spiritualist practices.
00:37:08
Red D
Yeah. I guess that could it might be.
00:37:12
Jen
I'm going to save comment on that because that that is sort related to my final comment.
00:37:14
El Platypo
That's so one of the things, obviously.
00:37:16
Jen
So save that one.
00:37:16
El Platypo
Yeah. Well, I am going to take the tone down um because I got what I refer to as a Tony Harrison moment.
00:37:18
Jen
and
00:37:27
El Platypo
Now, my Tony Harrison moment, com I don't know who Tony Harrison is, right?
00:37:31
Red D
Okay, are you just making this up? I'm like, is this a person?
00:37:32
El Platypo
no, no, no, no. If you can find who Tony Harrison is while, you know, I'm trying to...
00:37:36
Red D
English poet and translator.
00:37:39
El Platypo
Sounds unlikely, but anyway, will we'll go with it.
00:37:41
Red D
Okay.
00:37:42
El Platypo
So i used to love the Mighty Boosh in the thousands, and it was amazing.
00:37:42
Red D
Okay.
00:37:45
Red D
Oh, yes.
00:37:47
El Platypo
But in any episode in which the sha the shah the shamans basically played a big role, there would also, one of them would be, Tony Harrison, who is this just head with six tiny, tiny fingers for legs.
00:38:03
El Platypo
He used to walk along like that. And his catchphrase in any situation be, This is outrageous! And then a comment like, I come with my own papoose!
00:38:16
El Platypo
Or something like that. um Genuinely, I mean, it's the Mighty Boosh, it's random.
00:38:20
Red D
That's, yeah, I need to rewatch that.
00:38:21
El Platypo
But there's a moment in which they've been bored and they're being sort of pushed along to ah wherever they're being held in captivity, in which Neelix gives us a tiny air of some moment.
00:38:31
El Platypo
He goes, this is outrageous! And you're like, what fuck is that going to do in this situation?
00:38:35
Jen
oh yes
00:38:37
El Platypo
They want you to be outraged, you giant one.
00:38:40
Red D
I mean, they slapped Janeway down in front of everyone. They're not gonna care what Neelix says.
00:38:44
Jen
oh we
00:38:45
Red D
Oh,
00:38:45
El Platypo
Yes, yes. um But that was me, sorry. Tea, Red.
Kazon's Evolving Threat
00:38:50
Red D
is it my turn already? ah
00:38:51
El Platypo
Well, yes, yours are after mine, so like I assume so.
00:38:54
Red D
Yes, sorry. Well,
00:39:01
Red D
I think, I don't know if I was gonna wrap this. Okay, I was gonna say, it's not such a good point, so I might skip that one, sorry.
00:39:08
Jen
Okay.
00:39:09
El Platypo
Tell us the point, and then tell us the real point, and we'll skip over the bad point.
00:39:09
Red D
oh
00:39:12
Red D
But I did find this plan, but as as you mentioned, I'm call you Jessica.
00:39:13
El Platypo
don't know which one it was.
00:39:19
Red D
Jenny? I don't know. I think I need some help.
00:39:21
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:39:23
Red D
um ah I was finding the Kazon quite sneaky. um Or the plan that was laid out by Seska. Very sneaky. Starting with the distress call, then the stranded near-death Kazon.
00:39:38
Red D
Then the, I mean, the trap to entice them to this area. The Kazon on the board, like, playing it along as if he's helping them. The very targeted attacks on the ship and everything. i was like, wow, these guys, I guess they've upgraded.
00:39:53
Red D
But as you say, Jenny, it's because they have Sisca.
00:39:57
El Platypo
They have a Cardassian espionage expert.
00:39:57
Red D
And then, yes. And kind of, at that point where they had to navigate through the that field or something, would they have this? oh I thought it was helpful that they were trying to obviously reach the Kazon Nistrum, but then they had to fly through this aerospace where there were all these conflicting Kazon tribes or whatever they called them. So that was just like an added element because ah once they had the security code to reach, go past the security nets, that could have like just removed all the danger. But then actually they still had to go through
00:40:31
Red D
a bunch of Kazon because they're loyal to no one and just attack everyone so it was just in some way that makes them a slightly interesting villain because they don't normally coordinate like they actually ended up doing I think a little bit in this so
00:40:43
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:40:43
Jen
um
00:40:44
El Platypo
Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:47
Red D
yeah very I was just giving them a bit more credit than normal haha
00:40:52
Jen
but this
00:40:53
El Platypo
Like me and Neelix a few episodes ago. Yeah, I think that's a good one.
Kazon Actors and Prosthetics
00:41:00
El Platypo
And i can't I can't argue the toss because they actually seem competently led and strategised this one round in spite of the fact that their ships are basically mounting pop guns.
00:41:10
El Platypo
But anyway, Jen, did you have a few more thoughts on how they are portrayed this particular episode?
00:41:18
Jen
I mean, I did have one passing thought that was um
00:41:24
Jen
the, I think it was Marge Collar. um There were some close-ups of him. The problem is I can't remember if it was Marge Collar, if it was the one that they captured, who blew himself up.
00:41:38
Jen
So I'm just going to have to say it was one one of them. There were some close-ups where I just kept thinking, there's a really good chance of the person acting this. is doing a great job but it's being covered up by all the makeup and prosthetics.
00:41:54
Jen
um
00:41:54
Red D
Don't
00:41:55
Jen
I just got that impression that it might be some fantastic an acting underneath it all and that was a bit of a shame.
00:42:03
Red D
worry.
00:42:04
Jen
But yeah, other than that I didn't have much to add, I'm sorry. not too engaged by the Kazon, I'm waiting for the ball. hey
00:42:18
El Platypo
Noted. Noted. I think that's true. mean, hang
00:42:22
Jen
Jamie, it was just one of those times when you weren't really listening because it really sounded like it from the response.
00:42:27
El Platypo
on.
00:42:27
Red D
and
00:42:28
El Platypo
I know that you're waiting for the Borg. I know that you're waiting for the was just going to give you the space to speak.
00:42:31
Jen
Oh, well done.
00:42:34
Red D
good save good save
00:42:34
El Platypo
It's rare, but I finally looked on my notes for what to do when I moderate next time from last time, and I realised that I hadn't given folk the space to speak. But this time, apparently, when I did it,
00:42:46
El Platypo
the space goes on for so long, I wonder if you've frozen and you're wondering if I'm looking at my phone. Duly noted, suppose. i mean, building on that, I just quite... Building on that slight trope that you're picking up on, i just found it really ironic how easily deceived the Marge defender of his woman is, going from one moment of I'm defending my woman after this man violated her um to being completely sexist of You've let the woman in your quadrant get completely out of hand. This is the trouble you face. ah You know, as though the fact that they had women who were adding value and not just being told what to do was the reason why they were in that position and not seeing the irony. The whole situation had been engineered by the... Wait, are the Kardashians in the Alpha Quadrant?
00:43:39
Red D
Yes. Yes.
00:43:40
El Platypo
Yeah, the Alpha Quadrant female who is pulling his particular strings, albeit giving a lot of worried looks every time that the Starfleet crew here that she told Marge Culler that Chakotay raped her
Kazon's Toxic Masculinity
00:43:55
El Platypo
or violated her, which is an interesting deceit and a good one with which to prick his toxically masculine ego, in my opinion.
00:43:55
Red D
yes
00:44:07
Red D
I did like the line he had when, I guess, Janeway was trying to negotiate. or you know And he was like, you're even worse than she is, pointing to Seska. ah But, yes, I guess it's... a I guess, is that what patronizing means? Like, you're protective and you protect, but you still put down.
00:44:25
Red D
don't think that's what patronizing means.
00:44:27
El Platypo
Patronising is deliberately insulting.
00:44:27
Red D
but But it's kind of a ah feature of, like, patriarchals.
00:44:29
El Platypo
I've
00:44:30
Jen
yeah
00:44:32
Red D
Like, some men will be very, like...
00:44:35
El Platypo
ah been patronised by women too.
00:44:37
Red D
No, no, so I'm not using the word word correctly, patronizing is not it, but like this feature of like, you know, defending women's honor and everything, but not giving them any freedom. I guess it's a little bit, so
00:44:46
El Platypo
It's called toxic masculinity.
00:44:49
Red D
that's just called history and humanity, I think, but I don't know.
00:44:52
Jen
was ah well
00:44:54
El Platypo
i I need to send you a Mickey Overman sketch from Instagram, who I think is amazing. But yeah, sorry.
00:45:03
Red D
But yes, I guess he might be tolerating Seska's like behavior because you see, you know, she's still, we still see her ordering him around and he's like bearing it through gritted teeth, but he's having the most most successful run of his leadership career with her by his side.
00:45:16
Red D
So I guess he has to.
00:45:18
El Platypo
Yep, that's true. Gotta suck it up.
00:45:22
Red D
Yeah, that is interesting.
00:45:30
El Platypo
I'm still so unpractised at the whole giving space thing. I don't know what's an appropriate amount of time.
00:45:36
Red D
About one second, I would say, as opposed to five seconds.
00:45:39
El Platypo
Well, you were the ones who were all like, you need to interrupt people less. I'm just giving the people what they want.
00:45:44
Red D
Jamie, we told you that 10 years ago. are you still telling us that?
00:45:48
El Platypo
Look, some of us, some of us are ah slow learners. And I thought we, you know, were a tolerant friendship group who were there support our friends through their development arc. Or at least the plot characters who needed a redemption arc.
00:46:00
El Platypo
um
00:46:01
Red D
You're doing very well.
00:46:03
El Platypo
Oh, how the worm has turned.
00:46:06
Red D
Oh my gosh.
00:46:06
El Platypo
the worm has turned.
00:46:07
Red D
Was that patronizing enough for you? Sorry.
00:46:09
El Platypo
No, that that would be explaining to you that what you just used was English, um which is a language. That would be patronising, especially when you explain things to her.
00:46:20
Jen
a man's explanation, isn't it? It wasn't just patronising, was an explanation that she didn't ask for, which is the definition of man's explanation.
00:46:23
El Platypo
Only, only... Well, but is it... Can you mansplain mansplanation to me? Because, like, otherwise i've never going explain anything for the rest of my life.
00:46:34
Jen
so not know
00:46:37
El Platypo
And there's also weird... There's a weird thing in there where, like...
00:46:43
El Platypo
The way in which... ble Anyway, I'm not going to go into, like, the way in which...
00:46:47
Jen
Are you going mansplain why
00:46:49
Red D
You know, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't actually been mansplained too much, but I remember once being, like, and I was like, oh, this is mansplaining. And I was like, oh, okay.
00:46:59
Jen
Yeah, I don't think it's happened to me much.
00:46:59
El Platypo
When mansplaining is when a man explains something to you patronisingly.
00:47:03
Red D
Yeah.
00:47:03
El Platypo
Like that.
00:47:04
Red D
They suddenly become an expert on something. like like yeah But it doesn't happen to me often.
00:47:09
Jen
No, no me neither.
00:47:09
Red D
I remember one, one incident.
00:47:12
Jen
I tell you what does happen a lot on public transport, though.
00:47:14
El Platypo
There were no survivors.
00:47:15
Jen
The man spreading.
00:47:17
Red D
Oh, yeah.
00:47:17
Jen
That really bugs me. There's hardly any room for my legs!
00:47:19
Red D
Oh my gosh. Yes, actually. I mean, I sat down on the plane on the way back from South Africa. I sat down and the guy's legs were like, he was manspreading, I guess.
00:47:28
Jen
Way out! Knees a meter apart.
00:47:29
Red D
And to extent that I will never say anything, I guess maybe now that I'm getting older, but I'm like, leg i so I put my leg against his because he was kind of on his phone and stuff. So I thought if I assert my space, maybe he'll notice that word touching.
00:47:43
Red D
No. so i had I was like bending down and like getting something.
00:47:44
Jen
No.
00:47:46
Red D
wrong And I was like, excuse me. And then he moved his leg. And I was like, I can't spend seven hours like this.
00:47:53
Jen
laughter
00:47:54
Red D
right Like, just...
00:47:56
El Platypo
See, if if you're broke if you're a bloke, then what you do is you spend those seven hours feeling increasingly awkward, but feeling like you've been drawn into a contest of manhood chicken. And if you withdraw your leg, then you are the weaker man.
00:48:09
Red D
That's fine. You guys can do that. But I don't want anyone encroaching on my seat space. And I would encroach on theirs. Okay.
00:48:15
El Platypo
So much pressure that comes with XY chromosomes. and Speaking of, is is it back to you, Jenny?
Uncomfortable Parallels
00:48:23
Jen
Well, yes, yes. I have ah my final point. I only had four. um So I've touched on it earlier with the whole spiritual thing. um Yeah, I feel like the suicide bomber with the weird chanting before he committed suicide had these like slightly uncomfortable overtones of Islamic terrorism.
00:48:44
Jen
um And it made me wonder when this was produced and whether it was some kind of off the back of something that had happened back then.
00:48:52
Red D
and
00:48:53
Jen
or if it was too early I meant to look it up, but I didn't.
00:48:56
Red D
Well, I did Google when did these kind of, well, maybe it wasn't the right question, but I mean, it was not very well phrased, but the suicide, Islamic suicide bombing has a history stretching back to the 1980s with notable increases after the year 2000, which is after this episode, I think.
00:49:09
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:49:13
Red D
So maybe it was, so this would be like 1997 something.
00:49:14
El Platypo
yeah
00:49:14
Jen
Hmm.
00:49:15
El Platypo
It was filmed from 1995 to 2001. Yeah.
00:49:20
Red D
um
00:49:22
El Platypo
Suicide bombing was okay then.
00:49:22
Jen
Hmm.
00:49:24
El Platypo
so
00:49:24
Jen
Yeah, but
00:49:25
El Platypo
I'm joking.
00:49:25
Red D
I think it wasn't happening so...
00:49:26
El Platypo
I do not mean that. I really want to be clear that that was not meant seriously.
00:49:28
Red D
Of course not. And maybe it wasn't happening they weren so much in the you know the West, I'm guessing. I'm sure, maybe.
00:49:36
El Platypo
um Yeah.
00:49:37
Red D
But I'm certainly not an expert.
00:49:38
El Platypo
Interesting.
00:49:40
Red D
Yeah, I saw your note. I thought that was interesting. cause i Yeah, he did pray, but I more linked that back to Chakotay's prayer.
00:49:47
El Platypo
All prayer belongs to Dakota.
00:49:48
Jen
yeah but then Chico didn't blow himself up and aid of a course,
00:49:49
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:49:51
Red D
No, no, no. I think it's just that... yeah
00:49:53
Jen
taking other people with him, which...
00:49:55
Red D
No, I'm not comparing them, I'm just saying that's where my brain went on this particular occasion.
00:49:59
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:50:02
Red D
But yeah, I wonder. to ah Yeah, because sometimes they, something's in the script, and you're like, oh, this is definitely referencing something in history, or something that happened fairly contemporaneously, but I don't know.
00:50:08
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:50:13
Jen
I wonder if it was... mean, maybe this was what you were saying, Red, and I'm just only now really understanding what you meant. It was just to... um sort of con contrast.
00:50:24
Jen
um On the one hand, you have someone who's, and i don't know, religion or whatever, the the chanting seems to indicate religion to me, but could be wrong. um re Religion leads them to, you know, like destruction of themselves, of violence towards others.
00:50:37
El Platypo
Mm-hmm.
00:50:40
Jen
And on the other hand, you have the other character whose religion or spirituality leads him to find answers to questions and self-exploration.
00:50:51
Red D
Yeah.
00:50:51
Jen
um Maybe they were trying to make some sort of um like, don't know, not point, but like showcase the different ways in which spirituality can be used seems the wrong word, but I think you know what I mean.
00:51:06
Red D
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I guess, ah I mean, maybe that's not appropriate to say, but I guess they both their beliefs are very strong. Otherwise, that guy wouldn't blow himself up.
00:51:17
Red D
Like, Chakotay wouldn't get that meaning from an honestist.
00:51:18
Jen
Hmm.
00:51:18
El Platypo
know
00:51:21
Jen
It's a weird one though because I don't remember prior episodes with the Kazon. you know They were all very like tribal for sure what's the word?
00:51:33
Jen
like ah Loyal to the to the tribe but I didn't get...
00:51:38
El Platypo
wasn't but religious overtones to it.
00:51:38
Jen
it yeah I didn't so i don't know if they just sort shoehorn this in.
00:51:41
Red D
That's good point, yeah.
00:51:43
El Platypo
just thought they could shoot on that in as a plot device.
00:51:45
Jen
Yeah.
00:51:48
El Platypo
That's right.
00:51:48
Red D
It is quite dramatic as a plot.
00:51:48
El Platypo
He'll kill himself.
00:51:49
Red D
Like, it's a bit more dramatic than, um, he could have survived. He could have, like, planted a bomb. I mean, so,
00:51:56
El Platypo
I want to know how Sousa survived in the next door cell.
00:52:00
Red D
yes, well, we'll find out in the next episode, I think, but
00:52:02
Jen
I do remember, yeah, I mean, weirdly, one of the things I do remember really well, but the next one is like the biochemical, and biochemics of how the suicide bomber did it.
00:52:03
El Platypo
There it is.
00:52:15
Jen
Because the doctor kept finding certain markers in his blood that kept increasing.
00:52:16
Red D
Ah, okay.
00:52:16
El Platypo
Oh. Oh.
00:52:19
Red D
okay. Oh, so he was actually the bomb.
00:52:23
Jen
Yeah, so he was he basically had something in him that then when he put the two chemicals together, one with chemical was in his blood and one was in the needle from the toe.
00:52:24
El Platypo
Yeah, yeah.
00:52:24
Red D
Is that kind of... Ah, that's why. Okay.
00:52:27
El Platypo
I
00:52:32
Red D
Clever.
00:52:33
Jen
Um, hmm.
00:52:34
Red D
yeah have a
00:52:36
El Platypo
i mean, I have to admit that I'm going to go from that far more edifying discussion of the biochemistry allowing this particular plot device to happen to one of the bedrocks of this podcast.
00:52:50
El Platypo
I think we all know which direction I'm going to go in now, and that is my taking the mickey out of Neelix. And I would just like to point out that my notes on the moment where they're on the planet for the first time, they're taking command, and they're splitting into groups to take hold of the situation, grip of it by the scrup of the neck, and go out and ensure they have food, fuel, and shelter.
00:53:12
El Platypo
And they split into groups. And they split into Janeway, Duvok, Chakotay, and Neelix. And my notes on this read one and one thing only.
00:53:25
El Platypo
Neelix group is considerably smaller due to the principles of Darwinism.
00:53:33
El Platypo
And I'd just like to leave you with that for this podcast.
00:53:35
Red D
No, I think you should expand that point, Jamie.
00:53:37
El Platypo
I think I can leave that there.
Neelix's Survival Group Joke
00:53:39
El Platypo
And the people know where their best survival chances lie. And it's not with the morale officer, Gletton.
00:53:45
Red D
But he's the rough and tumble survivalist, I mean.
00:53:49
Jen
Yeah, it's pretty swell.
00:53:49
El Platypo
is Is he though? Is he Because, you know, there have been a lot of holes poked in that. Like, every time they send him to set up a meeting with some random drug dealer entry to a rebel group, it always goes wrong.
00:53:55
Red D
That's true.
00:54:02
El Platypo
Is he so rough and tumble?
00:54:05
Red D
Good point, good point. I did not notice that, but but you would notice that.
00:54:12
El Platypo
you're not focusing on the things that make this podcast the podcast what it is. And it's a good thing that when the bull points its horns, we've got someone to get us back on track. On which note, Red, to you, my friend.
00:54:24
Red D
Yes, my final point. I mean, i know we said at the start of the show that there was quite a lot of setting up, I guess, for the next episode. But as you were saying, they the you know a Voyager was boarded. were landed on this planet after the Kazon had taken um charge of Voyager.
00:54:42
Red D
And they just left on this planet to survive. And I can't really imagine how they felt when the Kazon took off with Voyager and flew off.
00:54:48
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:54:50
Red D
I mean, that is a pretty bad situation to be left in
00:54:51
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:54:54
Red D
plot-wise, story-wise, life-wise.
00:54:56
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:54:57
Red D
um So I felt like, oh, they're really in a tough situation, which I guess is like, just makes it for more interesting TV because you're like, how are they going to get out of this? But so that was one element and also just the sinking feeling you must have as you see your home fly away and your only way to get back to planet Earth.
00:55:17
Red D
And so I felt, felt for them.
00:55:17
Jen
Hmm.
Crew's Desperate Struggle
00:55:19
El Platypo
I mean, yeah, I completely agree with that. It was a little bit of a moment, even for me that doesn't like TBC episodes where it's like, when it goes off. Because I hate it, because the whole thing about Star Trek is them and their ship, and, you know, weird tech, and Sean of all of that, and, like, yeah, it's a whole test the group, test the moral fiber of the group sort of thing, but it's also like, that's what Star Trek is about. I like it.
00:55:45
Red D
But don't worry, I think, I'm sure the next episode will be on a ship.
00:55:45
El Platypo
I like spaceships having other spaceships.
00:55:50
Red D
It's gonna be, I think, if I recall.
00:55:50
Jen
You
00:55:53
El Platypo
will it Will it be though? Will it be? That's... Yeah. It's interesting. I had something that I thought of that I have completely lost in the moment. So maybe in the meanwhile we should move to themes.
00:56:08
Red D
Yeah, sure.
00:56:10
Jen
Do know, I had such, um I'm going to blame tired work brain, but I really struggled to go up with themes. I was thinking, wow, I'm being really dumb here. Like, I'm really struggling. So I am really interested to hear what you guys thought.
00:56:23
Red D
I think it was quite an action-orientated episode. So I did have a theme, but more...
00:56:28
El Platypo
you know
00:56:31
Red D
I'm not sure that was the purpose of the episode, the theme of the episode.
00:56:35
El Platypo
we
00:56:35
Red D
Jamie? Jamie?
00:56:36
El Platypo
I was going to go with the theme of good people being easy to be manipulated but then as we recapped it I just decided that my theme was going to be that based on who's left in the ship to turn it all around like expect the next episode to be very much like an edition of do you remember that series Dexter?
00:56:56
El Platypo
and also Dexter meets red dwarf with serial killer
00:57:00
Red D
Okay.
00:57:01
El Platypo
and hologram from finding forces to purge the ship. um
00:57:06
Red D
I think you might need to manage expectations a bit.
00:57:09
Jen
get
00:57:10
El Platypo
Highly disappointing. But that was my theme.
00:57:14
Red D
Well, yeah, at the end, you know, i think I've discussed this before in um various episodes, but they've never actually stated it out loud. But I was like, oh, in the Voyager universe, if you, like, kidnapped or trapped or whatever, you should always fight for your survival because someone is going to come rescue you.
00:57:30
Red D
Like, you should assume that, um, and then Janeway, when she's splitting them into teams when they're on the planet, she was, like, she said to, like, the team leaders, make it clear we expect to be rescued.
00:57:36
El Platypo
um
00:57:39
Red D
Our main job is to survive. So I was like, they're actually saying out loud the kind of philosophy of, I guess, being a crew member under, um, you know, these types of conditions because, uh,
00:57:43
Jen
hmm hmm
00:57:51
Red D
A, that will keep morale, but at the end of the day, it's, okay, it's TV, but someone always does come rescue them. But they have to kind of sometimes meet them halfway. You know, they can't just give up, but they have to be acting as if the rescue party is going to come and how do they best prepare for that?
00:58:07
Red D
So it was just interesting to hear him say that out loud, I guess, because we picked up on it in previous episodes.
00:58:15
Jen
Yeah, good point.
00:58:17
El Platypo
I agree, no, thank you. i think, yeah. So, Star Players.
00:58:27
Red D
Jenny, do you have one?
00:58:28
Jen
Oh, no, I really haven't really come up with one yet. um
00:58:35
Jen
Anyone else?
00:58:35
Red D
I do have one.
00:58:36
Jen
Okay, you go.
00:58:37
Red D
Well first, I mean, like first my first initial reaction was not Voyager because he walked into this trap. Then I was like, well, who laid the trap? So I think Starplayer does have to go to Seska for her strategy and tactics.
00:58:52
El Platypo
that bitch, but yes.
00:58:53
Red D
Yeah, she was good. She played them. She played them very well.
00:58:58
El Platypo
She played me like a fiddle. um Yeah, may but I raise the case for the defense?
00:59:08
Red D
Oh, I mean, we have kind of, yeah, but I mean, go for it.
00:59:12
El Platypo
I would like to name the air vent, which is the plot device by which they shall all be rescued, in which Suta is hiding at the last moment.
00:59:18
Red D
Very good.
00:59:21
Red D
very good
00:59:21
El Platypo
That is my star player, because I'm not giving it to Seska. She annoys someone very close to me. ah Jenny, who are you giving it to?
00:59:29
Jen
Oh gosh, I really struggle with this one. I think because actually there's so many different people in it for short periods.
00:59:35
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:59:35
Jen
No one really stands out necessarily because they're jumping around so much.
00:59:38
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:59:40
Jen
So um i think that I will, I'm going to give like a week in advance one and I'm going to give it to Judah because I feel like I will give it to him in the second part of this one.
00:59:48
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:59:49
Red D
Yes.
00:59:54
Red D
Fair enough.
00:59:55
Jen
And then, you know, maybe I have to do someone else for the next podcast.
00:59:59
Red D
Okay, very good.
01:00:02
El Platypo
Fair enough.
01:00:02
Red D
We'll let you have that, Jenny.
01:00:04
Jen
Thank you. I would struggle otherwise.
01:00:06
El Platypo
um which na
01:00:07
Jen
That's tricky one.
01:00:08
El Platypo
It has been snappy, but I think it's been a pleasure. Thank you both very, very much. Cue music. Let the bull point his horns. Or her bulls.
01:00:20
Red D
Did I ask you this already?
01:00:20
Jen
Oh.
01:00:21
Red D
why Where did this phrase go oh yes where this phrase come from? Yellowstone.
01:00:26
El Platypo
Yeah, that's it. You are getting the ball, getting it pointed at you for, you know, offensively cheerful pointing out the fact it was my turn for moderation.
01:00:36
Red D
Well, although our Yellowstone watches, hopefully you understand that reference.
01:00:46
Red D
Oh.
01:00:46
El Platypo
Are we vibing yet, or has the vibing happened? I'm not, was that the right one?
01:00:49
Red D
ah 3, 2, 1 and stop.