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00:00:00
00:00:01
We watch "False Profits" (S3 Ep.5)
10 Plays10 days ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "False Profits”, in which we meet two Ferengi making the most of what most would consider a terrible situation (plus I only got the pun in the title now - doh!).
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Theme music by Alain D
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:00
Red D
Start playing the jingle.
Neck Exercises and Desk-Related Tension
00:00:05
Red D
Hello, guys.
00:00:07
Jen
and then Hello, hello.
00:00:08
Red D
Time for a little dance. Oh, yes, some neck rolls. Sorry.
00:00:12
Jen
Yes, less dancing these days, more massage for, you know, yeah, tight neck muscles, too much time a desk.
00:00:17
Red D
Massage focus. Everybody lean to the left.
00:00:23
Red D
Lean to the right. I read the other day that... Dark under eye circles could be due to tight neck muscles. Now, no idea if that's true, but my neck muscles are very tight as my under circles, very dark.
00:00:30
Jen
Oh, interesting.
00:00:37
Red D
I don't know I said that right.
00:00:39
Jen
Same, same.
00:00:40
Jamie
Yeah, in case people were worried were wondering, i was doing the eel in reference to the children that Catherine Janeway and
00:00:41
Red D
So I was like, oh.
00:00:41
Jen
Is
Star Trek Voyager: 'False Prophets' Episode Overview
00:00:51
Jamie
Tom Paris or Ensign Kim had when they were both single members.
00:00:53
Red D
Paris.
00:00:56
Red D
Well, that was very...
00:00:57
Jen
anyone feeling really quiet? Is that just me?
00:01:00
Red D
Yes, Jamie, you were, but quite...
00:01:00
Jen
Oh there we
00:01:01
Red D
I don't know if it was just over the music or... But...
00:01:04
Jamie
and Was I very quiet?
00:01:05
Red D
Yeah, but...
00:01:05
Jamie
Oh, I see.
00:01:06
Red D
We liked your eel dance.
00:01:06
Jen
ah there we go, that's fine, that's fine.
00:01:07
Jamie
was doing the eel in memory of Catherine Janeway's and her random quote-unquote hot piece of ensign backside who she outsconded to when she accidentally mutated into a salamander on a planet somewhere.
00:01:08
Jen
but
00:01:23
Red D
they'll always have that... experience. That's crazy.
00:01:26
Jamie
oh
00:01:28
Jamie
I wish we knew the name of the planet so we could just say they they'll always have salamandrian or somewhere like that.
00:01:28
Red D
Oh,
00:01:33
Red D
Salamandrian. That sounds good, would say.
00:01:37
Jamie
Yes.
00:01:37
Red D
Well, welcome.
00:01:37
Jamie
Reg, bring us to order.
00:01:39
Red D
right I'm trying.
00:01:39
Jamie
Goddammit.
00:01:40
Red D
I'm trying.
00:01:40
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:01:41
Red D
ah Welcome back. Season 3, Episode 5, Star Trek Voyager. False Prophets. A lot when I remembered this episode. ah Jamie, will you kick us off with one of your famous
00:01:50
Jamie
Yes. I will, but I...
00:01:54
Red D
Infamous one minute summaries.
00:01:56
Jamie
and Well, I mean, they would be famous and very sedate if it wasn't for that troublemaker, Jenny, making trouble while I did them and throughout the episode. I think someone needs to watch her as moderator this episode, and I can't be the enforcer every time around.
00:02:13
Red D
Jenny said quietly in corner, he very has
00:02:13
Jamie
So... know,
00:02:16
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:02:16
Jamie
I know. This is how you can tell. Whenever there's an accusation peddled her way, she, like Macavity, she's not there. So...
00:02:24
Red D
think the expression is like butter wouldn't melt i never really and i don't always understand that expression but jenny's face there was the picture of innocence
00:02:25
Jamie
so
00:02:30
Jamie
Some of us are going for a cat's relevant reference here, Red.
00:02:35
Red D
okay sorry
00:02:37
Jamie
So, ah one minute summary.
Moral Dilemmas and Ferengi Exploitation
00:02:40
Jamie
Well, as they go investigating a random weird wormhole, the intrepid crew of Star Trek Voyager stumble across what appears on first view to be Ferengi paradise world.
00:02:58
Jamie
Now, being a Ferengi paradise world, there are only two Ferengi on it, but an entire population of compliant, earlobe-rubbing, rules of acquisition listening, and possession-giving Bronze Age locals who they have captivated and are, frankly, taxing into penury, whilst the crew of Voyager try and work out how to use their wormhole to get them back to the Alpha Quadrant.
00:03:27
Jamie
And I want to be very clear, it is their wormhole, legally, as this is the legal hook on which the captain hangs her hat to be able to intervene.
00:03:27
Red D
amazing oh yes
00:03:38
Red D
brilliant summary we'll get to that let's skip ahead but as you said that it did remind me of the whole premise of deep space nine which is that uh space station by the wormhole anyway no but the fact like the economic
00:03:39
Jamie
How do you feel about their weird wormhole read?
00:03:44
Jen
Good job.
00:03:52
Jamie
Oh really, that's about a Ferengi paradise too.
00:03:58
Red D
I don't know, viability next to a wormhole, even though in this case, this is not related. um
00:04:03
Jamie
No
00:04:04
Red D
But yeah, brilliant summary. Thank you, Jamie.
00:04:07
Jamie
and worries. I was very tempted to go with late-stage capitalism alternatively, but apparently I'm not allowed to.
00:04:07
Jen
and job
00:04:13
Red D
Yeah, it's an overused term, so I'm glad you left it out.
00:04:13
Jen
what
00:04:16
Jamie
and happy If Ted Lasso can use it, I can.
00:04:20
Red D
Ted Lasso, I need to watch that. Okay, initial reactions. Now I see, I think it's Jamie that already put out a lot of notes in this section.
00:04:23
Jamie
Wait, hang on.
00:04:27
Red D
So, Jamie, Do want to kick us off for initial
00:04:29
Jamie
i
Comedic Elements and British Comedy Influence
00:04:30
Red D
reactions?
00:04:30
Jamie
I put at least two more notes in my section sheeted. That's outrageous.
00:04:34
Red D
In initial reactions?
00:04:37
Jamie
Yeah. Oh, wait, no, hang on. No, sorry.
00:04:39
Red D
Oh yes, there we go.
00:04:39
Jamie
Yeah.
00:04:40
Red D
Logic, Jamie, logic. I know that wasn't about logic at all, but it's a callback to a joke that was said before we were on air. ah You can't add the notes contemporaneously as we're recording.
00:04:54
Red D
Oh.
00:04:55
Jen
Outrageous. My initial reactions were so strange, it's such a weird, weird episode. Lots of stuff going on, lots of like fables, religion, whole ear thing, which is, you know, very, it's very Ferengi, I get it, but also bit weird.
00:05:06
Jamie
hmm
00:05:09
Jamie
oh god hmm
00:05:13
Jen
Sacrificial burnings, poetry, and then the whole profitability theme, as you know, is always the case with the Ferengi. it's damn Ferengi yeah it's just felt like a bit of mishmash I'm not sure I understood feel like there was a lot undercurrents that someone with a bit more like historical socio-political history knowledge would get and I just don't
00:05:36
Jamie
I
00:05:38
Red D
Yes, I was wondering if there were some parallels that I wasn't... not maybe direct parallels, but some commentary that I wasn't quite picking up, but also thought they were hilarious.
00:05:47
Jamie
i mean, I would like to pick up on a parallel. I don't know if either of you watched Blackadder and the last series of Blackadder Goes Forth, but Jenny's...
00:06:01
Jamie
summary of the themes going on, moving from ah religious deception, weird erotica ears, sacrificial burnings, poetry, as though poetry were the worst of the lot, just reminds me of Captain Flashheart's appearance in Blackadder Goes Forth, where he's sounding forth about the many ills of the First World War, and he culminates with, and the poetry, the never-ending poetry,
00:06:30
Jamie
Genesis reminded me of that in her summary of the things of this. So, Shepo.
Poetry, Cultural Commentary, and Humor
00:06:36
Red D
I guess we're not a poetry-friendly podcast. I don't know what to do.
00:06:40
Jamie
I have nothing against it.
00:06:40
Red D
Oh,
00:06:41
Jamie
It's just philistines that keep saying it's awful.
00:06:44
Red D
I would love to be into poetry. I'd love to be able to just quote poetry off my heart. I'm not there yet.
00:06:50
Jamie
Rage, rage against the dying of the light, ready. Hmm.
00:06:52
Jen
I do like quite like poetry. ah definitely am no expert but I could quote some by heart.
00:06:54
Red D
Oh.
00:06:58
Jamie
Hmm.
00:07:01
Jen
There are a few that I've learned just my absolute favorites like Tennyson um and Shakespeare.
00:07:02
Red D
No. Oh.
00:07:09
Jen
that would be it.
00:07:11
Red D
you want to give us a little di now?
00:07:13
Jen
I don't know, do you want me to?
00:07:15
Red D
Yes.
00:07:15
Jamie
yeah
00:07:16
Red D
but i mean, you can't make that claim. And then, ah I mean, we're not tested.
00:07:18
Jen
oh
00:07:22
Jen
Okay okay here we go here we go Make me a willow cabin by your gate and call upon my soul within the house. Write loyal cantons of contemnant love and sing them loud even in the dead of the night. I lower your name to the reverberate hills and make babbling gossip of the air. Cry out, ah Olivia,
00:07:37
Jen
oh, you should not rest between the elements of air and earth, but you should pity me.
00:07:42
Red D
That was amazing, Jenny.
00:07:42
Jamie
Oh my god, what's amazing!
00:07:43
Red D
Oh my gosh, I loved it.
00:07:44
Jen
Take
00:07:46
Jamie
Oh, I love it!
00:07:46
Red D
I love, I mean, a that you know it, I loved how much you love it.
00:07:48
Jen
a bow.
00:07:50
Red D
And um where's that from for ignorant people like me and other listeners?
00:07:55
Jen
that That's Shakespeare from Twelfth Night.
00:07:56
Red D
Yeah.
00:07:59
Red D
Ah, yes.
00:08:00
Jen
Twelfth Night? Yeah, Twelfth Night. Yeah.
00:08:03
Red D
Amazing.
00:08:03
Jen
And I also know a hilarious little comedy thing one from him A Midsummer Night's Dream and the Tennyson one I would... I wouldn't back myself to remember all of it to be honest like I love it but now I think about it I think I'd be less confident about it.
00:08:16
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:08:23
Jen
I think that's it. I don't think i know any others of my heart.
00:08:25
Red D
Oh, that was amazing.
00:08:25
Jen
I just remembered my favourites.
Leslie Jordan's Performance and Career
00:08:27
Red D
That was amazing. Loved it. um I realized that I didn't do any research on one cool thing, but I think I'll pull up one of my points into this section because maybe he deserves to be the one cool thing, which is Leslie Jordan as the one of the Ferengi.
00:08:46
Red D
Now, I'm sure Leslie Jordan had a long and varied career, but I know him best from when he played this hilarious character on Will and Grace. um I don't know if you guys ever watched Will and Grace.
00:08:55
Jamie
Aww.
00:08:56
Jen
Oh.
00:08:56
Red D
Oh, he was so funny.
00:08:56
Jamie
I knew Willie Grace. I loved Willie Grace.
00:08:59
Red D
um And then he had like...
00:09:02
Jamie
Which character was in that?
00:09:04
Red D
I think his...
00:09:04
Jamie
Was he the...
00:09:05
Red D
Is his name Leslie in Will and Grace? Maybe I'm making it up. But he is that rich old man that pretends to be straight but is actually gay and is always terror terrorizing Karen.
00:09:09
Jamie
That...
00:09:15
Red D
They have like a like little feud.
00:09:16
Jamie
Oh, yeah.
00:09:18
Red D
um So I was...
00:09:20
Jamie
oh Yeah, yeah.
00:09:21
Jen
Oh, I think that rings a bell. Yeah.
00:09:23
Red D
ah and he's hilarious and then he during covid ah he became he was like he posted every day on instagram or something and he like just ah everyone loved him and uh he brought a lot of joy and to the world um beverly leslie was this character's name
00:09:33
Jamie
Aww.
00:09:36
Jamie
Hmm.
00:09:40
Jamie
Hmm.
00:09:40
Jen
Was that the... um
00:09:46
Jamie
Hmm.
00:09:47
Jen
Was he sage, you know, less greater sage or lesser sage?
00:09:51
Red D
Oh, I think he was less a sage because he was the shortest sage.
00:09:54
Jamie
Oh, it's horrible.
00:09:54
Jen
Oh!
00:09:57
Red D
um Yeah, because when I saw them, was like, oh, yes, I remember knowing one of these actors. But then I thought maybe it was one of the Ferengi from like Deep Space Nine or something.
00:10:05
Jamie
Moving
00:10:06
Red D
But it was Leslie Jordan and another actor who I'm afraid I did not.
00:10:10
Jamie
on.
00:10:11
Red D
So that is my one cool thing. But moving on.
00:10:15
Jen
Very cool.
00:10:16
Red D
Moving on. Okay, so sticking
00:10:19
Jamie
moving on
Monty Python Influence and Financial Satire
00:10:20
Red D
stick to the order that we have.
00:10:21
Red D
Jenny, do you want to kick us off um
00:10:24
Jen
Okay.
00:10:26
Red D
on tonight's discussion?
00:10:26
Jen
Well, I've already mentioned about the whole sort of, i found it a little bit overwhelming with all the stuff going on, all the themes and it's all a bit strange. um Not necessarily bad though.
00:10:37
Jen
um But what I did like particularly was um some of the comedy reminded me a bit of Monty Python, exploiting your family, you know, promise to begin exploiting my family before the end of the day.
00:10:45
Jamie
Oh, no. That
00:10:53
Jen
it just has a slight quirky Britishness to it, um which I quite liked.
00:10:55
Jamie
was hilarious.
00:10:59
Jen
don't know if you guys got that vibe.
00:11:00
Red D
but You know, that was, it was very funny. i agree. um
00:11:05
Jamie
want letter
00:11:06
Red D
i wish had, I think I was too tired to write down funny lines, but it was very funny. Even like, don't think I'm gonna mention this, but later on when they, ah the two Ferengi are actually like sword fighting Neelix, the fake Ferengi.
00:11:20
Red D
And he's got that giant cloak and he's like rolling.
00:11:21
Jen
um
00:11:21
Jamie
and
00:11:23
Red D
I mean, the physical comedy was really funny as well. He's like rolling on the ground and they're like trying to like swipe it with the sword.
00:11:25
Jamie
Yeah.
00:11:29
Red D
um And I do always love the Ferengi rules of acquisition. I just find them hilarious.
00:11:35
Jamie
ah They are hilarious.
00:11:38
Red D
So,
Neelix as a Ferengi: Effective Comedy?
00:11:40
Red D
yeah. Yeah.
00:11:42
Jamie
and Interestingly, in the latest Ben Aronovich book, the protagonist comments that he's really worried about what's going to happen since he ah basically made the head goblet of the UK aware of the Ferengi rules of acquisition.
00:11:42
Red D
but
00:12:00
Jen
Bye.
00:12:00
Red D
Repeat that? Sorry, I did not catch any of that.
00:12:04
Jamie
but In the Ben Aronovich Rivers of London series, without giving away any spoilers,
00:12:07
Red D
Oh, yes. Right, that I read, yes.
00:12:10
Jamie
which is set in in a London that would be recognisable to most of us, plus magic. um the The protagonist, one Peter Grant, reflects on his relationship with the head goblin of the UK official position.
00:12:28
Jamie
it had been going more positively, but also he was somewhat scared of its consequences since he made the head goblin aware of the Ferengi rules of acquisition.
00:12:38
Red D
Oh, that's hilarious. i Yeah.
00:12:41
Jamie
A trans-fantasy fiction crossover.
00:12:44
Red D
Yes.
00:12:44
Jen
yeah, once we cross over it
00:12:47
Red D
a Anything else to add to your point, Jenny? I think Jenny also thought something was funny. so he's
00:12:55
Jamie
think many things are funny.
00:12:57
Red D
Something very particular.
00:12:57
Jen
no, I don't think so that was it, just giving me Monty Python vibes
00:12:58
Red D
That's one point of yours. Yeah,
00:13:07
Jamie
don't know.
00:13:07
Red D
yeah I think that's it. Anna Jonakkoff- You mentioned Monty Python right already Jamie and mean not about the episode, but sorry i've already forgotten what Jamie said like 10 minutes ago that's not a good sign but Jamie over to you.
00:13:17
Jamie
i owe not i I didn't mention Monty Python and I'm Jamie.
00:13:17
Jen
um
00:13:17
Red D
Jonakkoff-
00:13:22
Jamie
um any Jenny, who is Jenny, just mentioned Monty Python.
00:13:26
Red D
No, what did you say earlier before we started going around you mentioned ah the fourth is that not Monty Python.
00:13:32
Jamie
What did I mention?
00:13:33
Jen
but I mean, it was my original point about Monty Python.
00:13:33
Jamie
The fourth?
00:13:36
Jamie
nay what What did you think I'd said, Red?
00:13:37
Jen
okay
00:13:39
Red D
I can't remember.
00:13:39
Jamie
The fourth?
00:13:40
Red D
I'll go back and listen to the recording, but Blackadder.
00:13:41
Jamie
Oh, Blackadder. Blackadder.
00:13:44
Red D
Sorry. Sorry.
00:13:44
Jen
Oh, yep, yep.
00:13:44
Red D
Thank you.
00:13:45
Jamie
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's not multi-Python.
00:13:47
Red D
Okay. Sorry.
00:13:48
Jamie
I know that all British comedy blends into one for you foreigners.
00:13:50
Red D
No, no, that's correct. Now I can see. can. Okay. I've got it. Now, Jamie, before forget something else, over to you.
00:13:58
Jamie
No, that's fine.
00:13:58
Jen
Bye.
00:13:58
Jamie
I was sort of hoping you were going to take the mick out of me as someone who's at least three quarters foreign for launching into you foreigners. um But anyway. So I died laughing at the Bezosian shift when the supplicants are coming to the two divine Ferengi sages for advice and help because his sandal factory was going out of business and he asks for some help because his wife and five children, he can't support them.
00:14:26
Jamie
I was in shifts of laughter as the Ferengi suddenly looks up from where he's getting his earlobe massage and goes, don't tell me you're paying them. and he said And he quickly reassures him that he's not, and the ring instantly shifts to, don't tell me none of them are working about his wife and children, including the baby.
00:14:46
Jamie
Which I found quite amusing. um And very Bezosian.
00:14:51
Red D
Besotion?
00:14:53
Jamie
Bezosian, spelled B-E-Z-O-S-I-A-N.
00:14:54
Red D
Yes, no, I can read. What does it mean?
00:14:59
Jamie
ah I mean, i I wouldn't want to name and shame on this one.
00:15:01
Red D
i Is that reference to Jeff Bezos or is it something else?
00:15:05
Jen
left
00:15:05
Red D
don't know.
00:15:05
Jamie
Honestly, Red, why on earth would she come out with something like that? What has that individual ever done that would in any way remind us of this?
00:15:13
Red D
I don't know, because I made my life a lot more convenient, so I'm trying to figure it out.
00:15:19
Jamie
capitalism, Red. That's the only answer you'll get out of me. But that was my sort of moment of comedy for this stage of the proceedings. And I'd like to be very clear that I no way liken the Ferengi to Jeff Bezos. That was your edit, for instance.
00:15:33
Red D
Okay, well, just wanted to check um and eliminate for our readers who, they're not looking at how the word is spelt, so they might have needed a clue. um Right, then i'll I'll jump in, I guess, because I guess we find out, as you already explained in your brilliant one-minute summary, that there's like a wormhole nearby.
00:15:56
Red D
And then Tuvok picks up, there's a wormhole.
00:15:57
Jamie
Good job, there's a work hole.
00:16:00
Red D
Very pretty wormhole, I must say. I like the special effects. um um They pick up that there's some Alpha Quadrant technology or something.
00:16:10
Red D
So Harry immediately thinks they're going home. I mean, he is always the optimist and he's always desperate to go home. And I always feel bad for him because I know there's another five seasons of the show, so you know that they're not going home.
00:16:24
Red D
But he was very optimistic. And actually, they did make a very good plan and they got quite close in the end. But yeah, he never changes.
00:16:33
Jamie
If they hadn't been off chasing random Ferengi, just saying.
00:16:39
Red D
Yes, yes. I guess I'll speak about that, or one of us will speak about that a bit more. But I just laughed and felt bad because he immediately lights up. He's immediately like, oh my gosh, this is it.
00:16:50
Red D
um
00:16:51
Jamie
Hmm.
00:16:52
Red D
And he is always the character that seems the most determined or the most, I don't want to desperate, it's not quite the right word, but he really wants to get home.
00:16:58
Jamie
Hmm.
00:17:02
Red D
Or he's, yeah.
00:17:02
Jamie
compelled, driven.
00:17:04
Red D
So, just, I don't know.
00:17:07
Jen
Yeah, classic.
00:17:07
Red D
It's just funny when a character behaves just the way they're designed to behave, I guess. have ah Okay.
00:17:15
Jen
Classic Harry Kim.
00:17:17
Red D
Say that again, sorry.
00:17:19
Jen
Classic Harry Kim.
00:17:20
Red D
Classic Harry Kim. Back to you, Jenny.
00:17:24
Jamie
Wait, oh yeah, no sorry, ignore me.
00:17:25
Red D
Oh, yeah.
00:17:27
Jamie
you know
00:17:28
Jen
Jamie's determined to steal all my talking points today. Outrageous.
00:17:31
Jamie
Nonsense!
00:17:32
Red D
Yes, I see. Because, yes, good yeah.
00:17:35
Jamie
What the hell? I have my own talking points and they're amazing.
00:17:39
Jen
Okay, well. I was going to talk about Neelix next because, you know, I so rarely give him his, you know, his compliments and actually this totally reminded me as well.
00:17:44
Red D
Nice.
00:17:54
Jen
I watching some really old obscure program recently and he was it.
00:17:59
Jamie
oh
00:18:00
Jen
And I could recognize him as well without all the prosthetics.
00:18:00
Red D
Oh, I love
00:18:03
Jen
Yeah, I'm so sorry. I don't know what he is. I'm going to find out and let you guys know. But and it was, yeah, it was quite a shock because you don't see him in much.
00:18:06
Red D
Oh, yes, please.
00:18:09
Jen
um Anywho, I think Nenix was doing a great job as pretending to be one of the Ferengi. And, you know, I realized they were trying to kill him.
00:18:14
Red D
Yes.
00:18:18
Jen
But I think he gave up the axe a little bit too soon. You know, I think he was doing a great job. I wish he'd, I wish they'd continued that plot line a little further. Him as a Ferengi is hilarious.
00:18:28
Red D
Yes, I think I agree because that does Sorry, this is a very random point, not really about Star Trek, but sometimes in like, especially more recent TV, I think, sometimes they're like, someone will come up with a plan, then they pursue it for two minutes, it doesn't work out, and then you're like, and they go to something else, I'm what was the point of that then?
00:18:47
Red D
Like, in a sense, like, because he was doing a great job, he was a great Ferengi, and he's a smooth talker, so they could have lent more into that element of his character to plausibly, like, get him out of that situation.
00:19:00
Jen
Yeah.
00:19:01
Red D
Yeah.
00:19:03
Jamie
i mean
00:19:03
Red D
So, oh,
00:19:03
Jen
They just couldn't let Neelix save the day.
00:19:05
Jen
yeah I suppose that would have been different storyline.
00:19:06
Jamie
ah You are being so, so, so kind. I mean, would... Sorry, I'm not allowed to jump in with my port next problem.
00:19:14
Jen
You are.
00:19:14
Red D
no, you can, if it's related to this bot, you could tell me up in or joy, next point.
00:19:14
Jen
You are. I'm done. Go ahead.
00:19:16
Jamie
Well, my...
00:19:18
Jen
Thank
00:19:18
Jamie
Oh my gosh, yes. So, can I beg your indulgence as I read it out in the spirit in which it was intended? Block capitals. Neelix.
00:19:30
Jamie
FFS again. exclamation mark exclamation mark exclamation mark exclamation mark could you just one time just once just one time just be cool just one time just once just one just one time just just be cool just one time um because
00:19:45
Red D
Oh.
00:19:50
Jamie
or it was It's literally the first role undercover that I've seen him play that he actually has seemed a natural selection for as one of the Voyager's crew, and he still bulls us it up.
00:19:59
Jen
Mmm.
00:20:04
Jamie
Like, how he goes from the Grand Nagus to being chased around and also beaten up with swords by a pair of Ferengi who he, frankly, should be able to take down easily is just beyond me, and I'm appalled by it.
00:20:20
Red D
They weren't very good at wielding those swords, that's for sure. They were very clumsy.
00:20:24
Jamie
yeah know I agree. and And to be honest, and most Ferengi like, he even threw money at the problem mid-fight.
00:20:33
Jamie
Literally throwing treasure at the Ferengi chasing him with swords to try and stop him.
00:20:33
Jen
that's commitment.
00:20:37
Jen
It's committed to the role. Yeah.
00:20:40
Jamie
He threw money at them.
00:20:40
Red D
Now, Jamie, seeing as though you raised the point that Neelix was doing a good job, how do you feel about Jamie being so down on Neelix? his
00:20:50
Jen
Oh, it's outrageous.
00:20:54
Jen
How could you be so cruel to Neelix?
00:20:54
Red D
um
00:20:56
Jen
You get so little
00:20:57
Jamie
If he hadn't had an entire three seasons of driving me to apoplectic rage his inanity, I'm sure I could summon up some ashes of charity from my heart.
00:21:09
Red D
Very poetic.
00:21:09
Jen
I really, um i find him quite, i he does irritate me, especially in the early episodes of Voyager.
00:21:17
Jen
But um as more time goes on and they develop his story arc, and also when he separates from Kes, I feel like, don't know if that's happened yet, but I feel like he gets more interesting.
00:21:27
Jamie
It hasn't. What? What?
00:21:29
Jen
this isn't Spoiler.
00:21:34
Red D
spoiler yep spoiler um
00:21:38
Jen
You knew that.
00:21:39
Jamie
I mean, only because you told me spoilers on podcast, to be fair, without realising there were spoilers for some of us, who are supposedly here as the litmus test of how a normal human reacts to this stuff.
00:21:52
Red D
well moving on um okay i think it's my turn no it's jamie no you went hey jamie um i think it's yeah
00:21:53
Jen
Moving on swiftly.
00:22:01
Jamie
I did, yes. I in fact got in two for the price of one, which I think we can all be grateful
00:22:04
Red D
Nice. Nice. Speeding along. um I mean, did anyone else at the point where Janeway and I guess Paris and Chakotay were like, we can't just leave these Ferengi here, like a exploiting the local population.
00:22:19
Red D
But then I was like, what about the Prime Directive? Which, ah you know, they like to go on about. And i like I was thinking, what about the Prime Directive? And then Tuvok was like, the Prime Directive? So I was like, oh yes, that makes sense.
00:22:30
Red D
That I think my favorite character.
00:22:31
Jamie
for.
00:22:33
Red D
But then I thought Janeway actually had a very good counter argument. And that was actually quite logical. And but well, I mean, like, I think, yes, that was kind of an argument.
00:22:41
Jamie
Well, also one could argue that the prime directive has already been violated, though, by the fact that there are Ferengi there, right, it's no longer their natural evolution, everyone can pile in.
00:22:52
Red D
And the Federation set up the negotiation on the other side of the wormhole, and it's kind of, they kind of set off the chain of events that led to the Ferengi.
00:23:00
Jamie
Yeah, I mean, that that I thought was just an excuse to show Janeway's legal leadership and people smirking, um, Because this as much as even Duvok says, a very logical answer, you can tell his heart
00:23:08
Jen
Thank you.
00:23:12
Red D
No, his heart is never in violating the Prime Directive, that's true. But, you know, sometimes the arguments that do it in previous episodes, I would say, i have not been as strong. um let's see or maybe bet your pardon i feel like january is always violating that am i making this up i could i could be losing my mind a little bit here um
00:23:25
Jamie
it. Does he violate it a lot?
00:23:29
Jamie
Throughout the course of it. Do they violate the Prime Directive a lot?
00:23:37
Jamie
Just like that, no, I don't want
00:23:40
Red D
uh my memory was getting very bad now it's better but now it's going bad again anyway um right certainly back to you jenny
00:23:51
Jen
Oh, me again, me again. So, again, i feel like I covered a lot in the, I gave away too too much early on in the initial impressions.
00:23:57
Jamie
to say that.
00:24:02
Jen
This is just the whole thing about feeling like there's a historical undercurrent going on that someone with, you know, a lot more knowledge to me on those kind of things would know that they're trying to reference certain, you know, specific political situations or countries and also in terms of like when this came out I wonder if there was something going on does anyone know Jamie you're the sort of expert political historic historical kind of expert
00:24:20
Red D
Mm-hmm.
00:24:29
Jamie
As in... in terms of i mean
00:24:34
Jen
like religious exploitation I guess so the manipulating um people
00:24:37
Jamie
as in
00:24:41
Jen
and the way the Varengi are doing for reasons other than actual belief in sages.
00:24:47
Jamie
Well, interestingly, one of my other talking points was I find it parallels with the Bene Gesserit style co-optation of local myth in Dune.
00:24:58
Jamie
um And certainly, i think there are zero widely documented instances of colonialists, especially Western ones, um I think even the conquistadors are taking advantage of the of various of the first people cultures having myths about deities who would come um and positioning themselves as that. So it's not unheard of.
00:25:27
Jen
Absolutely. I just wondered if when this came out, there was going to be, there was something going on that, you know, you know how Star Trek's often trying to be topical and like make comment on stuff that's going on at the time.
00:25:28
Red D
Yeah.
00:25:33
Jamie
Hmm.
00:25:34
Red D
Yes. Yeah.
00:25:36
Jamie
Hmm.
00:25:38
Jen
I wondered if there was anything, but maybe not.
00:25:39
Jamie
Well, what sort of year did it come out?
00:25:40
Jen
Maybe it was just historical.
00:25:42
Jamie
What sort of year did it come out?
00:25:45
Red D
Was it like you the nineteen late 90s?
00:25:45
Jen
That is a good question.
00:25:48
Jamie
Yeah, because it it would have been before then um which would have been the obvious sort of massive, massive co-optation of religion behind a particularly appropriate act of that sort of half decade.
00:25:54
Red D
yeah
00:26:05
Jamie
Yeah.
00:26:08
Red D
I definitely, at some point I thought maybe, and this is a terrible word to use, but maybe like a hodgepodge of different, like, not like one event or one, because I mean, think that that's happened a lot throughout history and probably across the globe.
00:26:17
Jen
All right.
00:26:18
Jamie
Hmm.
00:26:22
Red D
and But there were definitely times where I thought, um i mean, I'm not, don't think I'll be able to express this very well now, but like even the, okay, so the Ferengi come along and co-op, they like,
00:26:23
Jamie
Hmm.
00:26:36
Red D
myth mythology to portray themselves as the sages whatever that the people have been expecting uh these people are taking advantage of then when they're under like threat there's something about the way like oh when we don't know what to do what do we do we turn to like the rules of acquisition like and and and then they made a comment about like and the 10 adjustments and the 10 there's like the religiosity i guess of the kind of religion and that uh
00:26:39
Jamie
Hmm.
00:26:43
Jamie
Hmm.
00:26:53
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:26:58
Jamie
Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:02
Jamie
Hmm.
00:27:02
Red D
turning to like what I would call like the scriptures, but I think, you know, people would to use different terminology.
00:27:06
Jamie
Hmm.
00:27:07
Red D
And then the fact that they also, i mean, it's in my themes a bit, but the way they get Janeway to back off for a while is the Ferengi is like saying, you know, people won't cope if they lose their religion in a sense, like creates a vacuum, which I think is like an interesting question that comes up.
00:27:25
Jamie
I was really surprised by Janeway being argued down by that logic when it was clearly being deployed cynically.
00:27:31
Red D
I think she needed time to regroup because she didn't accept that. um
00:27:36
Jamie
What?! This is a woman who face down the Borg! She's not intimidated by two Ferengi shysters.
00:27:41
Red D
But she did have to consider the impact, I guess, on the people.
00:27:45
Jamie
Yeah, she could consider it with them in a Briggs cell, not with them back on the planet. I'm outraged. This was poor leadership.
00:27:52
Red D
but then also i thought it was interesting how then, you know, it wasn't just these poor innocent um uh people on the planet because in the end in like a rebellion to the ferengi they willing to and to fulfill the myth they willing to burn them alive so there was a lot going on that's why i was thinking more like maybe a bit of a mishmash of lots of things rather than highlighting one specific uh
00:28:01
Jamie
Hmm.
00:28:12
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm.
00:28:15
Jen
Yeah.
00:28:16
Jamie
Hmm.
00:28:18
Jen
Do you notice as well they they come full circle in the Voyager then kind of manipulate the...
00:28:23
Red D
yes
00:28:25
Jamie
the
00:28:28
Jen
well they manipulate the Ferengi's rules of acquisitions which is kind of like their religion um to try and to try and manipulate them to leave the planet by sending in Neelix as their great
00:28:36
Red D
Oh, yes. Yes, that's a good point.
00:28:38
Jen
they call it the great sage or or something they're almost as bad as the Ferengi guys yeah
00:28:39
Jamie
hmm
00:28:43
Red D
The manipulation within the manipulation. Yes, but because we can't like stand the Ferengi religion, we like, oh, yes, that's smart.
00:28:47
Jamie
yeah well look, quoting directly from the episode being Ferengi they haven't just co-opted the mythology they've cornered the market zingers from Mr Paris
00:28:53
Red D
But then.
00:29:02
Red D
So many good, good little quips.
00:29:08
Red D
I've forgotten whose point it was. My gosh, what is wrong with me? I think it was mine.
00:29:13
Jamie
I mean, it was really...
00:29:13
Jen
think it was yours yeah
00:29:14
Red D
Yeah, great.
00:29:14
Jamie
All right, so it was good.
00:29:16
Red D
and That's why i look it write it down, because I was like, yes, but now back to you, Jenny.
00:29:21
Jen
tick oh well tick that I am on my final comment but it does follow on quite nicely from that discussion um so you're talking about when that scene where sage greater sage is convincing Janeway that you know
00:29:22
Red D
ti Exactly.
00:29:38
Jen
it's not okay just to leave these guys and they'll be without their sages which I keep almost saying saviours because that's what I'm imagining they're know they're positioning themselves as sages very similar to the word saviours I think that's what they were going for are saviours um yeah like gods basically that's what they're telling the population of the planet they are yeah it's I mean it's quite dark really red I mean
00:29:49
Jamie
What's the world?
00:29:49
Red D
Sorry.
00:29:51
Red D
That's funny. Yes.
00:29:54
Jamie
ah
00:30:00
Red D
I don't know why that made me laugh so much, but Sorry, I thought it was funny.
00:30:07
Jen
funny at all um it's lot of comedy in there um but yeah I just I really think that was quite potentially a really good little soliloquy if that's the right word that the greatest age gives convincing Janeway you know goes off on this ah massive tangent about you know what happens when a people lose the uh gods um but also I think I think he did a great job but also I feel like
00:30:11
Red D
Yeah.
00:30:24
Jamie
hmm hmm hmm
00:30:36
Jen
Ferengi characters are always hampered by giving a really good performance by the, you know, is it prosthetics on their face?
00:30:43
Red D
Yeah.
00:30:43
Jen
Is that what it's called?
00:30:43
Jamie
and
00:30:44
Red D
Yeah.
00:30:44
Jen
Like all the makeup.
00:30:44
Jamie
yeah
00:30:45
Jen
um And that like, there must've been such great like expression, you know, when he was giving that speech that I just don't think you can, I think it must be really tough to, you know, convey with all that stuff on your face.
00:30:59
Jamie
Hmm.
00:31:00
Red D
yeah
00:31:01
Jen
So I think he did a great job, but also I'm a bit sad that we didn't get to see the actor
00:31:02
Jamie
Hmm.
00:31:06
Jen
give it is all in maybe pre-dress rehearsal
00:31:11
Red D
Yeah, that's a really interesting point because I didn't note this down, but there was a lot of great expression acting from Janeway in a couple of moments. ah just one raised eyebrow, one, you know, whatever.
00:31:22
Red D
And then, as you say, these actors under this tons of prosthetics, they must have to really exaggerate just to get like the tiniest thing across. And as you say, they do a good job, but it's probably not natural.
00:31:32
Jamie
Hmm.
00:31:35
Red D
Maybe if you come from the theater or something, it's slightly more natural. I don't know, like,
00:31:39
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm.
00:31:40
Red D
If you're trying to get the people the back to see, you have to be bigger. you know
00:31:43
Red D
But I'm sure for TV acting, it's not what they have to do with all that makeup on.
00:31:43
Jen
yeah
00:31:51
Jen
maybe that guy was a lot of background in theatre maybe that's why they selected for the role might have to research that
00:31:57
Red D
maybe.
00:32:00
Red D
Yeah, did find this Wikipedia, but I didn't dive too deep into it. um Anything you want to discuss, discuss more about the soliloquy?
00:32:12
Red D
um
00:32:12
Jen
No, I don't know, quite liked it. I think it was well written. You know, was very expressive the way he delivered it and also just something about the writing. It ran very smoothly.
00:32:24
Jen
sounded poetic. It sounded similar to the, you know, the actual, that guy in the street with the eye patch who's always coming out with terrible poetry.
00:32:27
Red D
Yes.
00:32:32
Red D
With the moving eye patch.
00:32:33
Jen
I think Ray Tosage is better than, better poetry than the actual poet.
00:32:39
Red D
What did the... There was Greatest Sage and Lesser Sage.
00:32:44
Red D
right because that
00:32:44
Jen
Leicester's age.
00:32:44
Jamie
Hmm.
00:32:45
Red D
And then when Neelix came as the fake grand nexus or fake proxy, that guy called him something...
00:32:46
Jen
Yeah.
00:32:51
Red D
Maybe Greatest Sage or something?
00:32:53
Jamie
The great, no, pilgrim,
00:32:53
Red D
I can't remember. What did he call him? yeah No, he called him like he also called him like something sage.
00:32:57
Jen
pu I can't remember.
00:32:58
Jamie
the great pilgrim?
00:33:00
Red D
Because it was Greatest Sage, Lesser Sage.
00:33:02
Jen
Oh was it like the Grand Nagus?
00:33:02
Jamie
Gracious?
00:33:04
Red D
Yeah, he had his official...
00:33:05
Jamie
Oh no, that was the youngest.
00:33:07
Red D
So, you know, like they had that, let's call him human assistant, who was calling one greatest sage, one lesser sage.
00:33:11
Jamie
Hmm.
00:33:13
Red D
When Neelix arrived, he refers to him as like grand sage or something.
00:33:14
Jamie
Hmm.
00:33:18
Red D
I can't remember, but he also had like a little...
00:33:20
Jamie
Hmm.
00:33:20
Jen
Oh,
00:33:22
Red D
so it was I think he used it once, but I've forgotten.
00:33:27
Jen
it's so complicated all the hierarchies. I can't keep track.
00:33:31
Red D
I thought he was just like taking the... that's basically of the lesser sage by calling them.
00:33:34
Jamie
Hmm.
00:33:36
Red D
ah But maybe that was their official titles actually.
00:33:39
Jamie
Hmm. Well, yeah, although...
00:33:41
Red D
Sorry, Jane.
00:33:43
Jamie
Although the sort of semi-rebellious um native of the planet does delight in calling the lesser sage the lesser sage to his face to annoy him.
00:33:51
Red D
Yes, yes.
00:33:52
Jamie
So maybe it might be title, but it can also be used to mean it.
00:33:56
Red D
Yes, you seem to get a kick out that.
00:33:56
Jen
Yeah, cool comedy value.
00:34:00
Red D
um Right, Jamie. Over to you.
00:34:04
Jamie
Oh, no, I mean, just ah general comment of the rules of acquisition, not exploitation, of acquisition, which I found hysterical. But I did think that some have some quite useful application.
00:34:16
Jamie
So I really loved the one which was where no applicable rule exists, invent one. And I was just thinking, um you know, you could, it's a useful one for negotiating consultant landier life.
00:34:29
Jamie
We could do with getting corporate for this podcast to consider it.
00:34:32
Red D
I thought someone would break that one up. That rule up. Yes, I was like, I don't know if that's a indictment on society or something useful to take go away. I don't know. Oh.
00:34:44
Jen
Also, but then what what what will all these big deal disruptors in air quotes do? You know, because they need to break the rules to show that they're entrepreneurs.
00:34:51
Red D
but Oh, yes.
00:34:52
Jamie
Oh no, they're nott they're not breaking it, they're just inventing the new rules.
00:34:55
Jen
Hmm. Hmm.
00:34:55
Red D
Oh. That's another way of looking at it. Oh. Um... Anything else, Jamie, on that point?
00:35:06
Jamie
Ah, you said Neelix, I mean... I very much enjoyed Neelix throwing money at the problem, I very much enjoyed smirking during the League Lees.
00:35:18
Jamie
I just wanted to comment, i get the impression that every single time in which Ferengi are sort of in a position of power, they always seem to dress up women as Vegas showgirls, which, in the case of it again, which I'm a little bit sort of, what earth is going on?
00:35:32
Red D
Yes, correct. Which Paris appreciated.
00:35:38
Jamie
Yeah.
00:35:38
Jen
I mean, i know I should be appalled, but also I really like their costumes.
00:35:42
Red D
yes.
00:35:42
Jamie
chris
00:35:42
Red D
Yes.
00:35:42
Jen
They're like, you know, they're sort of Jasmine from Aladdin kind of, you know, princess style outfits.
00:35:44
Jamie
slash Vegas Shugles slash Princess Leia.
00:35:49
Red D
Yeah,
00:35:52
Jen
They're pretty cool.
00:35:54
Jamie
Now, I just need to ask everyone to moderate their tone and their voices and speak melodiously without swearing.
00:35:54
Red D
yeah I did love the outfits.
00:36:01
Jamie
I have a very sensitive feline audience with me right now. And, you know, we're getting to a stage.
00:36:05
Red D
How many felines?
00:36:07
Jamie
Sorry? Oh, just the one.
00:36:08
Red D
How- Oh.
00:36:09
Jamie
but But the one who um we're currently negotiating piece of chords between her and her siblings.
00:36:13
Red D
Okay.
00:36:15
Jamie
So, you know, let's let's keep it clean, people.
00:36:18
Red D
Okay.
00:36:18
Red D
Everybody be quiet.
00:36:18
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:36:19
Jamie
mean and Oh, no, you don't need to. Just clean and melodious, please.
00:36:23
Red D
Melodious. Okay, I'll try my best.
00:36:25
Jamie
Yeah.
00:36:25
Red D
Oh.
00:36:26
Jamie
I mean, im you know, me and the emitter are emitting all the pheromones you could possibly want for cats to sort of settle down and, you know, be all nice to each other. But, you know, we we need to hit them on every bit of the sensory spectrum.
00:36:40
Red D
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Give them a nice soothing evening wind down. Okay.
00:36:46
Jamie
ASMR tones, people. ASMR tones.
00:36:50
Jen
Sounds like my head space up.
00:36:53
Red D
Then I think it's so me next. I had a question. and the Bronze Age societies have town squares? Because...
00:37:04
Jamie
yeah yes yes answer uh there are well documented so sorry you said i have and then i was oh gosh i'm saying something that's offended too
00:37:06
Red D
um Okay.
00:37:09
Red D
I have...
00:37:12
Red D
Go ahead, go ahead.
00:37:17
Red D
No, no, no, I'm not offended. I just was speaking before listening to your point, so please continue. Yeah.
00:37:24
Jamie
ah So I was going to say that Greek Minoan and other cultures in that sort of space all had towns and all had squares in which trading took place.
00:37:34
Red D
Yeah. But is that Bronze Age? I thought Bronze Age was like, now I...
00:37:38
Jamie
Yeah, absolutely.
00:37:40
Red D
Now I've seen some videos recently on YouTube where they're like, oh, yes, the biggest, it's already a town settlement was like a half moon shaped bunch of huts or something.
00:37:50
Jamie
Hmm.
00:37:52
Red D
was like, because at first they, they refer to the, you know, Bronze Age technology.
00:37:54
Jamie
yep.
00:37:56
Jamie
yeah
00:37:58
Red D
And then someone says something about their town square. And i was like, wait a minute. Are those two things? It's not a big deal.
00:38:05
Jamie
So to answer the question, the Greek Bronze Age was 3300 to 1200 BC.
00:38:11
Red D
Ah, okay.
00:38:13
Jamie
Creation of bronze had to improve tools and weapons, facilitating trade and warfare. Periods saw the rise of major civilizations such as the Minoans and Mycenaeans, known for impressive architecture and art.
00:38:24
Red D
Oh, right. Is that Bronze Age?
00:38:28
Jamie
Complex social hierarchies in establishment of trade networks across the Mediterranean. um
00:38:34
Jen
but also this is you know not earth so maybe in alien bronze age there was there were town squares.
00:38:39
Red D
Yeah, yeah, no, no, but that's... ah Bronze Age? I guess I was thinking more an earlier period and I got confused. Okay, great. Question answered.
00:38:47
Jen
I'm very impressed that Jamie even even if it was I'm sure it was right but even if it wasn't right that you had any kind of response
00:38:48
Red D
yeah
00:38:56
Jen
i would have no clue at all
00:38:58
Red D
and Well, you've done your poetry reading for the night, so you're good.
00:38:59
Jamie
Well, actually, a lot of...
00:39:01
Jen
i Yes, that that's true. Right. Yep. That's me.
00:39:04
Jamie
But no, it's mostly coloured by a lot of Miles Cameron's literature in the Bronze Age, um especially stuff like the Battle of Marathon and similar.
00:39:15
Jamie
um which is just after it um but also some of his parody fiction especially I'm sure think it's the Fall of Heaven series but definitely i think also the War of Troy is possibly also supposed to have happened in the Bronze Age
00:39:36
Red D
I just didn't know all those things were in the Bronze Age. I guess I thought the Bronze Age was older, but now i think maybe I was thinking about the Stone Age or something. um Yeah, okay, good. So we they were correct. I mean, writers of TV series are often very smart, so I shouldn't have doubted them.
00:39:54
Red D
and
00:39:54
Jamie
Well, Red, don't know.
00:39:55
Jen
How could you read?
00:39:56
Jamie
Some of us have been standing foursquare behind Captain Janeway's leadership and the authorship of the intrepid writers of Star Trek and Voyager since the start. I think you might want to get on the bandwagon.
00:40:07
Red D
Okay. Okay. I'm going to disregard that question and not edit it out, obviously, but I have another point that...
00:40:12
Jamie
Well, that wasn't a question It was a point, but yes, sorry.
00:40:15
Red D
No, my question.
00:40:16
Jamie
Sorry, Spencer.
00:40:17
Red D
My point, which was a question.
00:40:17
Jamie
All right.
00:40:18
Red D
Remember when I spoke before you spoke and I asked the question?
00:40:21
Jamie
like ah It all tends to blur into one until I speak. No, I'm joking. Sorry.
00:40:26
Red D
This is a very random thought, but... um You know how they always have to like disguise themselves and go onto planets and infiltrate? Which is actually quite a specific skill, I guess, that you need to have and develop.
00:40:34
Jamie
Hmm.
00:40:38
Jamie
Hmm.
00:40:39
Red D
But after listening to a lot of true crime episodes, the number of times people in the FBI pull these operations where they are acting and pretending to be other people and pretending to you know entrap someone or whatever, I'm like, does everyone in the FBI just want to be an actor?
00:40:39
Jamie
Hmm.
00:40:40
Jen
Hmm.
00:40:57
Red D
so they get to play all these crazy these things and then just i don't that when tom and chakotay went down to the planet and we're trying to blend in was like that's actually not that easy really to do but they have they called on to do it very often
00:41:07
Jamie
Yeah.
00:41:12
Jamie
All that time that Commander Riker went down to that planet and had to sleep his way out of trouble. That happened in an episode of Star Trek Enterprise.
00:41:16
Red D
okay i have to refresh my
00:41:20
Jamie
You can't look at me as though I'm a dreadful human. and That actually happened.
00:41:22
Red D
No, no, I believe you. I just have to refresh. I mean, Riker, that makes 100% sense.
00:41:25
Jen
Yeah, I can't quite...
00:41:26
Red D
Yes.
00:41:27
Jen
Yeah, yeah, I believe you. just can't quite remember that one. i Yeah, I mean, is fascinating who would go for roles, like, spy roles, because, as you say, it's an actor crossed with someone who is acting it in a situation where they're acting potentially for their life in some situations.
00:41:45
Jamie
Hmm.
00:41:46
Red D
yes
00:41:48
Jen
So, really interesting personality type. I don't know what it would be.
00:41:52
Red D
Yes, that's what was like. I did not realize there were so many people in like, I guess, maybe police, FBI, you know, who are like, they jump at the chance to like put on like kind of some random sting operation where they can pretend to be, um don't they pretend to make friends with someone or they pretend to be neighbors. they Like they always seem to want to be doing this acting thing.
00:42:12
Red D
I'm like, don't you have a full-time novel job? But it's an interesting, interesting mix of characteristics for someone for sure.
00:42:18
Jen
Yeah.
00:42:23
Red D
ah But that was my...
00:42:23
Jen
Do you reckon you've ever met...
00:42:24
Red D
No, no, no.
00:42:26
Jen
Go on.
00:42:28
Red D
Go ahead.
00:42:30
Jen
I was gonna say, do you reckon you've ever met a spy?
00:42:33
Red D
That's a good question.
00:42:34
Jamie
Yes.
00:42:36
Jen
Yes!
00:42:37
Jamie
Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure we'd have met some of them, Mabel, for instance.
00:42:43
Jen
where sorry
00:42:44
Jamie
ah Do you remember the May Ball that we went to with our friend NP?
00:42:50
Jen
yeah um Cambridge College Ball you think they'd be do you reckon they still recruit highly from Oxbridge
00:42:54
Jamie
Yeah. oh Oh yeah, god yeah. um percent 100%. I mean, they also recruit in other places, but... I'd be disappointed if some of the alumni from the Cold War hadn't come back to Coiffe Champagne with the bright young things and...
00:43:12
Jamie
relive the good old days of so of yeah two-way state secrets.
00:43:18
Red D
Do you think you've met one, Jenny? Or do you think you could have come across someone apart from at the, this maple, sorry.
00:43:25
Jen
Well, I have no idea, but from, you know, I'm basing my knowledge ah entirely on, you know, James Bond and Graham Greene novels, but from, as I understand it, they tell you they're like insurance, but, but aren't they supposed to tell you they're like insurance, they're in insurance or something super boring and like they, they, they behave as someone really boring and normal and that's the, that's the whole cover to protect themselves.
00:43:35
Red D
No one's been in a tux. yeah
00:43:37
Jamie
Yeah, they're always in the talks, they tell you, and they're normally trying get me.
00:43:44
Jamie
Yeah. Audit.
00:43:48
Red D
Yes.
00:43:49
Jamie
Hmm.
00:43:51
Jamie
Hmm.
00:43:52
Jen
So, So who knows, who knows? But you know, I am one of these people who loves a good like spy novel or spy film, or especially all these fantastic like dramatizations of real life spy stories.
00:43:58
Jamie
Hmm.
00:44:05
Red D
yes
00:44:07
Jen
So I'm always fascinated with the thought that I wanted real life spies.
00:44:12
Jamie
Do you remember when you were off doing the dive master, that lad who half crippled himself coming off his motorcycle?
00:44:21
Jen
Yes.
00:44:23
Jamie
I suspect he may have done some things.
00:44:26
Jen
Are you serious? You're gonna use some kind of intelligence? That is an interesting one.
00:44:36
Red D
I can't think of anyone now, but wonder.
00:44:37
Jen
Who knows?
00:44:40
Jamie
I mean, to be honest, anyone who's ever coxed has spied for a coach, but let's not talk about that.
00:44:47
Red D
oh There, yeah, rife, rife spy. um um Okay, so coming around, Jenny, I don't know if you have any other points, what I've added, or anything that's come to mind?
00:44:58
Jen
No, I think that's why I went off my spy tangent because I'm of points.
00:44:59
Jamie
Hmm.
00:45:01
Red D
Oh, nice, that was a good tangent.
00:45:04
Jamie
Hmm.
00:45:05
Red D
ah Jamie, I think, um,
00:45:10
Jamie
Anything from me? Hmm.
00:45:11
Red D
did you cover anything?
00:45:14
Jamie
we've quite exhausted The only thing I had left was so much smirk about the reactions to Janeway's and Eataly's logic, which I've already said. So, suffira pour moi.
00:45:23
Red D
Yeah.
00:45:26
Red D
Well, I did manage to write down one line that I thought was funny, which was when I guess the Ferengi appeared to be getting their but they were They hadn't been set alive yet or threatened.
00:45:39
Red D
aliveza But you know towards the end of the episode where they're like, yes, we're going to fulfill the rest of the myth and we're going to leave.
00:45:39
Jamie
hmm
00:45:45
Red D
ah Because Neelix is you know telling the crowd that. And the one guy who's like, I've prayed for this day to come. don't know why I thought of so funny, but it was another funny little line. um And then things escalated quite quickly and they were ready to burn the Ferengi.
00:46:01
Red D
ah But they managed just... yes uh but they got out of there safely um and i did feel for harry at the end because they got really close voyager to trying to use that wormhole but they missed out
00:46:01
Jen
Yeah, it really did escalate quickly.
00:46:19
Jamie
So close.
00:46:20
Jen
Harry.
00:46:20
Red D
so close okay so to wrap up um themes jenny you got i think it's your writing
00:46:21
Jamie
So close.
00:46:28
Jamie
Oh gosh.
00:46:30
Jen
yeah i mean Yeah, I managed to, you know, sometimes I can't even recognize a single theme and then other times I write it all down.
00:46:34
Jamie
Hmm.
00:46:37
Jamie
Hmm.
00:46:39
Jen
um The responsibility and how far it extends, I think we covered that earlier about, you know, Janeway's logical argument to Tuvok for why they are going to violate the Prime Directive because, you know, it's their responsibility because it wasn't for them and their peace talks, the Ferengi would never have been on this planet, which i do think is a bit tenuous, but...
00:46:45
Jamie
Hmm.
00:46:51
Jamie
Hmm.
00:46:57
Jen
um
00:46:58
Jamie
Hmm.
00:46:58
Jen
that's the question isn't it how how far should you feel responsible exploitation religion cultural fables myths and whatnot
00:47:11
Red D
It just occurred to me, even maybe it's not a theme, is that Voyager went there to save the planet's population. But in the end of the day, they probably saved the Ferengi, in a sense, because how long were those people going to put up with more exploitation?
00:47:22
Jamie
Hmm.
00:47:26
Red D
And we saw that they were... Maybe they needed some kind of trigger or spark, but they were willing to resort to violence, in a sense.
00:47:30
Jamie
Hmm.
00:47:35
Red D
um So...
00:47:36
Jamie
Yes, they were. Yes, they were.
00:47:39
Red D
Again, i guess that's a lesson about the...
00:47:39
Jen
and well I was just thinking out loud that unfortunately they've sort of reinforced certain things in those people now haven't they it's like basically all worked out when they burnt the gods so now they're gonna you know that's how they're gonna solve all their problems to start burning people to sacrifice them
00:47:40
Red D
Yeah, go ahead.
00:47:50
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm.
00:47:50
Red D
Yes.
00:47:53
Red D
Yes.
00:47:56
Jamie
Yeah, be atheistic again.
00:47:59
Red D
There's like no safe way to interfere, really, even when you're trying to do the right thing.
00:48:03
Jen
hmm
00:48:06
Jen
yeah
00:48:08
Red D
ah Jamie?
00:48:12
Jamie
um mean we've covered most of them. I can't say late stage capitalism fifth time.
00:48:16
Jen
I'll balance it out early stage communism is that thing what is that
00:48:17
Red D
to
00:48:17
Jamie
um
00:48:18
Red D
I'll actually edit that out.
00:48:19
Jamie
i think
00:48:21
Red D
In this podcast, a famously has no editing.
00:48:23
Jamie
yeah
00:48:28
Jamie
i mean um I think we should all finish by saying humans in Ferengian.
00:48:31
Red D
I'm sure...
00:48:37
Red D
Oh, yes!
00:48:38
Jen
Who man? Who man?
00:48:40
Jamie
That was my only other theme.
00:48:40
Red D
ah That was...
00:48:41
Jamie
Humans.
00:48:43
Red D
That was my...
00:48:44
Jen
That is... like
00:48:45
Jamie
Humans.
00:48:47
Red D
Go ahead, Jenny.
00:48:48
Jen
ah I was gonna say that is, it's very pathetic and sad, but that is basically when Jamie and I, you know, mock, pretend to be our cats.
00:48:59
Jen
That's how they talk about us. The Who mans?
00:49:01
Jamie
A human.
00:49:02
Jen
When will the Who mans feed us?
00:49:03
Jamie
That's
00:49:05
Jen
Et cetera.
00:49:05
Red D
is so funny. I love
00:49:06
Jamie
the only way in which there is endless Rengi though. The only way.
00:49:11
Red D
it. I forgot that that was one of my points, but with the first time we were here, man, I just laughed. and then someone once pointed out to my sister like why did the fariki only say that word that way but I'm not going to dwell too deeply on it I think it's funny I enjoy it
00:49:24
Jen
Because it's funny, yeah.
00:49:29
Red D
oh
00:49:30
Jen
Maybe it's some kind of insult, you know because they always say it with a bit of sass, like the who-mans, you know.
00:49:34
Red D
oh yes it's definitely yeah they definitely think humans are bit ephiria but I guess that's just funny um
00:49:45
Jamie
I mean, I think everyone is. Let's really try and swindle them.
00:49:48
Red D
Yes, that's true. um I think in terms of my themes, we kind of discussed what happened, that you know, the line, what happens when people lose their cards. But I for don't think this was a theme, but I thought it was interesting, like when the Suferengi are, let's say, on the pyre and facing the end of their life, the one turns the other and it's like, we had seven years of pure profit.
00:50:08
Jamie
Hmm.
00:50:13
Red D
And so on their deathbed, that was what they were celebrating.
00:50:14
Jen
isn
00:50:14
Jamie
Oh no, it's so spooky.
00:50:16
Red D
And And we're really happy about it, which is just funny, like, I guess what is meaningful to people and all the research that, you know, stuff that shows that like on your, if you're that situation, you would never say that, but it was interesting and funny.
00:50:17
Jamie
Oh
00:50:24
Jamie
wow. Hmm.
00:50:33
Jen
Yeah, they really are a different species.
00:50:36
Red D
Yeah.
00:50:37
Jen
They clearly, you know, make sense for them.
00:50:38
Jamie
Clearly meaningful and loving.
00:50:40
Red D
Yes. Definitely, definitely. So, well, like, you it's good to think about what's important to you before you're on your deathbed, but there will never be from the profit motive, it seems.
00:50:52
Red D
So, oh okay.
00:50:54
Jamie
Wolverines.
00:50:56
Red D
Wolverines. and Right, star player. Jenny, kick us off?
00:51:03
Jamie
Oh gosh.
00:51:04
Red D
Jenny? Jenny, Jenny, you want kick us off?
00:51:05
Jen
Oh.
00:51:09
Jen
I haven't thought about this one yet.
00:51:11
Red D
I can go if you guys are still thinking.
00:51:12
Jamie
Let's see...
00:51:14
Jen
Yes, you go.
00:51:14
Jamie
I'm not sure anyone covers themselves in glory this one.
00:51:17
Red D
Okay, I'm going to This is a bit... I don't think we've ever done one like this. It's a bit... You can speak to it. But I'm going to say the wardrobe person for the amazing Ferengi outfits and the amazing Ferengi harem lady outfits.
00:51:29
Jamie
si
00:51:34
Red D
I mean, they had amazing, amazing clothes.
00:51:35
Jen
but
00:51:37
Red D
All those shiny fabrics and patterns and... yeah
00:51:41
Jamie
i also like to point out Tom Paris' immensely purple shirt.
00:51:41
Red D
thought.
00:51:45
Red D
Yeah, I mean, everyone looked great, but I just love those Ferengi outfits.
00:51:48
Jamie
yeah that but
00:51:52
Jen
That's a great one. I don't think if've anyone's chosen the costume designers before, they? That's a good one.
00:51:58
Jamie
I would like to throw a vote in the direction of the Starfleet shoemaker, who is clearly making a damn good set of shoes, considering how often they were traded for advantage this episode.
00:52:12
Jamie
At least three times.
00:52:14
Jen
I feel like this opens up a lot of opportunity in future episodes for Star Player Red. Because i'm I'm thinking now about all the other production team that I can you know call on for Star Player when it's not the actors themselves.
00:52:18
Red D
Yes, yes, yes,
00:52:18
Jamie
Yeah.
00:52:25
Jamie
Could I just make a clarification? This is the Starfleet shoemakers, not the wardrobe shoemakers.
00:52:32
Red D
yes. yes yes
00:52:32
Jamie
In-universe Starplayer.
00:52:34
Jen
but That is important. Yeah. You gotta be, yeah. i mean Yeah, we had that issue right at the start, remember when I was choosing the star, play her as an actor or an actress.
00:52:40
Jamie
Hmm...
00:52:43
Red D
But you can, you can do that.
00:52:44
Jen
And you guys, but we can switch, Mitch and Mitch, yeah, switch and, what's the phrase?
00:52:47
Red D
Yes. So whereas I've i've chosen an offre i've i've chosen off-screen clothes person, Jamie's chosen an off- let's say behind the scenes, on screen.
00:52:51
Jen
Mix and match.
00:52:56
Jamie
no I haven't broken the fourth wall.
00:52:57
Jen
Nice.
00:52:59
Jamie
Dissuasive.
00:52:59
Jen
Nice. Do you know what? going to choose the greater sage because I did enjoy his soliloquy and his, you know,
00:53:07
Red D
oh
00:53:08
Jen
He's very, what's the word for it?
00:53:10
Jamie
<unk>asive
00:53:11
Jen
Rhetoric, you know, in convincing Janeway that in fact they couldn't possibly leave these poor people with without their gods. um I thought it was very nicely delivered and, you know, delivering it in all that prosthetic, you know, I mean, just well done.
00:53:26
Red D
Yes, I like that choice, definitely. um Great, any final comments from anyone? Anything you forgot to say?
00:53:37
Jen
No other than to say, well done guys, that we did the podcast because we've just, everyone's been super busy for weeks and delay it.
00:53:41
Red D
Well done, everybody.
00:53:45
Jamie
Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:47
Jen
So,
00:53:47
Jamie
We've treated them mean and they've got Keener according to Red with the downloads.
00:53:52
Red D
Yes, so I'll be interested to see if
00:53:53
Jen
well, then this will be, be a nice surprise.
00:53:57
Red D
Hopefully well received silent audience out there.
00:54:00
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm.
00:54:00
Jen
Yep.
00:54:01
Red D
um Great.
00:54:02
Jamie
Hmm. Oh, well.
00:54:03
Red D
So join us next time. I'm just checking. I think it's season three, episode six. Remembers. It's a strange title.
00:54:08
Jamie
and
00:54:10
Red D
Remember, remember. I mean, it's a strange title, but it's not quite the same as the others, would say. So.
00:54:17
Jen
doesn't jog any memories
00:54:20
Red D
No, it's not. to But yeah, we will be back. um Gosh.
00:54:28
Red D
i'm gone blank.
00:54:28
Jamie
well
00:54:29
Red D
guess we'll just let the jingle play us out.
00:54:31
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:54:32
Red D
And see you next time.
00:54:37
Jen
well i think that was a good way to end that introducing the episode remembers and then having a memory blank good job
00:54:46
Red D
Okay, sorry.
00:54:47
Jamie
yes that's the
00:54:48
Red D
Wow.
00:54:49
Jen
yeah
00:54:49
Red D
I'm too gosh, no, don't know what's wrong with me. done like nothing for three days.