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We watch "The Thaw" (S2 Ep.23)
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Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "The Thaw”, in which there is very little “thawing”, but we do encounter Fear himself, and he is as creepy as you would expect.
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Theme music by Alain D
Recommended
Transcript
Opening Banter and Podcast Dynamics
00:00:00
El Platypo
Stop the tune.
00:00:00
Red D
right
00:00:00
Jen
okay
00:00:00
El Platypo
Stop the tune.
00:00:01
Jen
I actually thought you just you must have pressed record and it captured all that conversation about it on.
00:00:02
El Platypo
Start the tune.
00:00:06
Red D
Oh man, I really wish I had captured Moistened, but...
00:00:09
El Platypo
Well, I'd like to have a conversation about whether the phrase one of you two used before the music started, suitably moistened, is appropriate for podcasts because I find myself cringing a little bit of having heard it.
00:00:21
Red D
Well, I nearly used it and I thought I better not and then Jenny used it, which I wasn't expecting.
00:00:22
El Platypo
Your friend.
00:00:25
Jen
it
00:00:26
El Platypo
Oh, yeah. Just throw some mud and see if it sticks.
00:00:30
Red D
Oh my gosh.
00:00:31
Jen
I probably wouldn't have used it if it wasn't YouTube.
00:00:31
El Platypo
so Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance.
00:00:34
Jen
It's not exactly a phrase I'd use on a work call with a client or something.
00:00:37
Red D
ah
00:00:41
Jen
Suitably moistened.
00:00:43
El Platypo
Right, oh God.
00:00:43
Red D
Oh
00:00:46
El Platypo
ah Why,
00:00:47
Red D
my gosh. I need to hire someone to remix this into a proper jingle with Moistened. Anyway, Jenny.
00:00:52
Jen
yeah
00:00:54
El Platypo
Make it stop.
00:00:55
Jen
Just to clarify, we're talking about lip balm. Lip balm.
00:00:58
El Platypo
Are we though?
00:01:00
Red D
Does that help? Anyway, I'm stopping the jingle. I don't mean to you, Jenny.
00:01:04
El Platypo
Really? It won't stop other people using the M word that you two both used.
Comedic Episode Summaries and Sci-Fi Plot Discussion
00:01:11
Jen
Oh, it's me, isn't it?
00:01:12
Red D
Jenny, so it's you. You're in charge tonight.
00:01:13
Jen
Yes.
00:01:14
El Platypo
Is it Jenny? We could still have the argument about who it is.
00:01:16
Jen
No, I'm ready to go. I'm ready to hand over immediately to Jamie to do the one minute summary.
00:01:22
Red D
Would you like to give an introduction of the episode that we're doing?
00:01:22
El Platypo
Right.
00:01:25
Red D
ah
00:01:26
El Platypo
Say no, say no, say no, say Go on, say no, say no, say She's going to like, no.
00:01:26
Jen
Oh, do I need to do that? Okay. So we're talking about season two episode 23, the Thor of Koje.
00:01:37
El Platypo
No. I was just role modelling how you could have responded to Red saying, would you like to give a summary?
00:01:38
Jen
mean there
00:01:42
El Platypo
No. And then you create a comedic moment through social awkwardness. No.
00:01:49
El Platypo
I basically thought that this was ah science fiction version of what could go wrong for an escape plan made by Matrix-obsessed preppers, as effectively we find our intrepid crew from Voyager...
00:02:06
El Platypo
Chancing upon a planet that has gone through an icy, wintry apocalypse of which there are only three survivors who are in suspended animation in their own version of the Matrix generated by their survival pods, which on the inside of which virtual reality they inhabit, looks strangely like the village and cast of The Prisoner with Patrick McGowan.
00:02:35
Red D
I'm going to have to look
Trivia and Behind-the-Scenes Insights
00:02:36
Red D
that up. Thank you, Jamie.
00:02:36
El Platypo
The crew and captain get involved.
00:02:40
Red D
Brilliant.
00:02:41
El Platypo
So that was the summary.
00:02:44
Jen
Thank you, great job.
00:02:44
Red D
for an
00:02:46
Jen
So, think we're on one cool thing.
00:02:47
El Platypo
Here all day.
00:02:52
El Platypo
Yes.
00:02:53
Jen
I think, I'm little bit confused by the notes, I've got be honest here, but I'm going to go with one cool thing, and I think people have put a couple of cool things.
00:02:56
El Platypo
yeah Yep.
00:03:00
Jen
So guys, what are the cool things?
00:03:03
El Platypo
I, yeah, so one of my cool things is the chief protagonist of this episode, a terrifying fear clown who has come to dominate the ah survival pod virtual reality matrix, terrorizing and keeping the three surviving aliens captive there.
00:03:23
El Platypo
That character who plays this terrifying clown is also the voice of Grandpa Lou in The Rugrats.
00:03:31
Red D
That's very cool. I had a quick look at his filmography. um
00:03:35
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:03:36
Red D
Super busy. Because I was like, I definitely recognize this guy from somewhere.
00:03:39
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:03:39
Red D
I can't tell where I recognize him from because he's in so many things.
00:03:41
El Platypo
the Rugrats.
00:03:43
Red D
Well, I think he was also in Hey Arnold, which is one of my favorite animation shows.
00:03:46
Jen
Oh hey Arnold!
00:03:46
El Platypo
Amazing!
00:03:48
Red D
Yeah. So very cool.
00:03:51
Jen
I remember that.
00:03:53
Red D
Hey Arnold.
00:03:53
El Platypo
You're
00:03:55
Red D
Something like that best story not right.
00:03:55
Jen
unfortunate
00:03:58
Red D
ah
00:03:58
El Platypo
such a great American.
00:04:01
Red D
I'm trying. I'm trying. Let me in, America.
00:04:06
Jen
I feel like there's this other... i don't know if this is just something that's not supposed to be here but there might be another one cool thing listed.
00:04:14
Red D
Oh, I think that was Jamie's summary.
00:04:16
El Platypo
Yeah, that was my one minute summary.
00:04:16
Red D
ah One minute summary.
00:04:18
El Platypo
It was clearly memorable.
00:04:18
Jen
Ah, okay.
00:04:19
El Platypo
You were clearly listening as I literally read it out.
00:04:21
Jen
No, it's just... it's in the... you don't normally write it in the notes. Anyway, anyway, this is very boring for anyone listening. So okay we're
Episode Analysis: Themes and Comparisons
00:04:30
Jen
going forward. Initial reactions.
00:04:31
Red D
This is a podcast and a behind-the-scenes podcast all in one.
00:04:31
El Platypo
That's... That was Jenny adding texture, bringing you into our life.
00:04:33
Jen
Yes. Yes.
00:04:37
El Platypo
The uncomfort.
00:04:37
Jen
Initial reactions. So, Fred, you go first.
00:04:43
El Platypo
Ooh.
00:04:44
Red D
Well, ah I don't know Jenny said something because froze for me there, but um I can dive in because Jamie's being uncharacteristically silent.
00:04:49
El Platypo
yeah
00:04:49
Jen
Oh, I said, yeah, it's going,
00:04:54
Red D
ah So let me go. Let me hold out my chance.
00:04:55
Jen
this is going very smoothly, this particular, know, I'm sorry guys, it's going, it's not very smoothly at all, is it?
00:04:56
El Platypo
I'm respecting my wife's moderation style.
00:04:59
Red D
Well, I...
00:05:01
Jen
I apologize.
00:05:03
Red D
It's going green.
00:05:03
El Platypo
It's okay. A slightly chaotic appearance like this catapulted Boris Johnson to the Prime Ministerian ship after an appearance on the on you know Have I Got News For You?
00:05:10
Red D
And never forget.
00:05:14
Red D
that how he did it? Interesting. Anyways.
00:05:16
Jen
Well, thanks for that comparison, but I think we'll move on.
00:05:19
El Platypo
Carry on. Hmm. carryo
00:05:21
Jen
Go on, Red, you tell me your initial reaction.
00:05:24
Red D
Well, I think when I realized what episode this was, when I started watching, i was like, ah, no. Which, you know, is not... a characteristic reaction i have when watching Star Trek Voyager because um I don't know I think it's in the past when I've watched it it's been a bit like too think it reminds me too much of a play rather than a TV the episode and obviously i'm what a lot of big play watcher sorry guys um but I did actually I mean I did really enjoy it and I think it's probably because now I'm watching it
00:05:44
El Platypo
and
00:05:57
Red D
Well, I definitely watched it after The Matrix, but I like the comparison to The Matrix and the sci-fi element, I guess, really. um All the clowns. I'm not sure I was into that, but I enjoyed it.
00:06:08
Red D
um and mean But I see Jenny. that You're going to disagree strongly.
00:06:13
Jen
Yeah, I'll go next. I love this one. absolutely love it. It's one ones that I always always remember.
00:06:17
El Platypo
you
00:06:19
Jen
It's just really memorable. And yeah, I'm gonna wait to say more later on. um Because actually, one of my points was a sort of meandering, um passing thought about why I loved it, which I don't know the answer, i think was the result.
00:06:26
Red D
um Okay.
00:06:35
Red D
Yes.
00:06:38
Jen
But I'll get to that later.
00:06:39
El Platypo
so
00:06:40
Jen
But yeah, I saw it was this one. I i was very pleased.
00:06:43
Red D
I can't wait to hear.
00:06:43
Jen
about you, Jamie?
00:06:47
Jen
Over to Jay.
00:06:49
El Platypo
Oh, right. Sorry, that that was over to me, was it? um I probably, as ever, um I'm the median in this conversation in that I quite enjoyed it I mean, it didn't... It felt like the sort of episode per series where they don't really do sci-fi and they get a little bit surrealist which it really was um but it was a bit like we're getting close to where it all looks a little bit low budget and uh you know that and by getting close to not you know
00:07:23
Jen
I would agree with that.
00:07:29
El Platypo
very all there although i did find some of the costumes absolutely hilarious like the giant shadowy figure which is just this giant with an enormous set of teeth and nothing else uh that was that was quite cool so yeah some childhood nightmares in there i think
00:07:42
Jen
That was horrible.
00:07:45
Jen
Yeah, for sure. Interesting. Well, I was very interested to hear what you guys would thought think of this episode. And I'm not at all surprised that it's not liked, I have to say. i don't know.
00:07:57
Jen
It's this weird dichotomy of loving it myself, but absolutely seeing why everyone else might hate it.
00:08:01
El Platypo
and
00:08:04
Red D
Hate! No one said hate.
00:08:06
Jen
but Yeah, not hate, not hate.
00:08:06
Red D
yeah
00:08:06
El Platypo
weirdly yeah Weirdly, I think...
00:08:08
Jen
Not the favourite.
00:08:10
El Platypo
Did anyone else feel that Q would absolutely have loved it inside that madhouse?
00:08:15
Jen
Oh, yeah.
00:08:15
Red D
Who would have, sorry?
00:08:16
El Platypo
you
00:08:17
Red D
Oh gosh, yes, I mean, yes.
00:08:20
Jen
You give them help
00:08:22
Red D
Yes. A strong emphatic yes.
00:08:26
Jen
hell. I might go with me for the first comment purely because um then i can I can expand on my why do I like this?
00:08:29
El Platypo
and
00:08:35
Jen
Why why do I like this one? Because I generally note it down like I don't really know why because it is horrible and you know I'm not a fan of
00:08:44
Red D
It's not horrible.
00:08:44
El Platypo
like
00:08:47
Jen
clowns or yeah I mean i'm not scared of them or anything but you know it's it's all very as you say quite budget Jamie and you know not necessarily my cup of tea so I was just trying to work out why I think I'd noted down like I do love the mystery element like before anyone goes in to this sort of illusion world they're trying to work out what on earth happened and it is a bit of a mystery and these people have basically died and they work out how they've died why they've died and they've they've covered all the reasons why they might you know, the technology might have malfunctioned, they can't work it out.
00:09:19
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:09:20
Jen
And then they're looking at the biological reasons and there was this like massive, I think, increase in norepinephrine or or or some some kind of stress hormone and, um you know, the neural reasons and it's all a bit of a mystery.
00:09:33
Jen
So that is are always interesting because, you know, curiosity and all and like morbid curiosity when we find out they were possibly scared to death.
00:09:44
Jen
You think, oh God, what what was so scary that it killed them?
00:09:44
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:09:47
Jen
um and then And then it just goes on to quite, it's quite a philosophical one, I think, which is what's quite appealing to it to me. Like I love those, that kind of crap, you know, the cheesy philosophical themes, like what is fear?
00:09:56
El Platypo
ah so
00:10:00
Jen
You know, how do you overcome fear? um These kinds of questions. um Plus, although all the clowns and the the weird characters are, yeah, pretty,
00:10:11
Jen
ah well, I just, ah i don't know what the word is. Disconcerting. um
00:10:18
El Platypo
Yeah, disturbing.
00:10:18
Jen
I, yeah, I do kind of love that it is just completely weird. and
00:10:23
El Platypo
and
00:10:23
Jen
And I noted WTAF, like, you know, you're watching a Star Trek episode and you're thinking, what is happening?
00:10:26
Red D
you
00:10:32
Jen
So I kind of love that. um So there are possible reasons why love this one.
00:10:38
El Platypo
oh
00:10:40
Jen
And that's all I had on that. So, Over to Jamie.
00:10:44
El Platypo
I mean, mine mine might be a little bit trite by comparison, but I've got some with a bit more depth. I just think that there's one of the most amazing, hilariously camp moments in the episode where ah just by way of showing he controls the place, the fear clown makes everyone turn around and go, ooh, at something one of the interlopers says, which just absolutely cracked me up and I thought was one of the best moments of Star Trek ever.
00:11:04
Red D
hmm
00:11:12
El Platypo
especially given the fact that that protagonist nearly, you know, overcame the folk of the goods good ship Voyager. So, yeah, I was... I liked that. made me smile................
00:11:23
Jen
That is such a Jamie moment. I could have guessed you'd love that moment. if Thanks Jay. Red.
00:11:33
Red D
m Yes, well, perhaps this is a bad example of something I enjoyed.
00:11:38
El Platypo
ah
00:11:39
Red D
But ah if we go back to the teaser, um i always love to see Harry Kim playing the ovo.
00:11:45
El Platypo
Yes.
00:11:45
Red D
um
00:11:46
El Platypo
Could you tell
00:11:46
Red D
And...
Personal Reflections on Fear and Childhood Influences
00:11:47
El Platypo
the scene a little bit, just to set the scene for our listeners?
00:11:49
Jen
Bullet for clarinet surely?
00:11:49
El Platypo
Because I've neglected to be.....................
00:11:50
Red D
ah Oh, yes, sorry, clarinet. Why did have to write down an ovo? um And he's practicing, and then his, guess... a neighbor thumbs on the wall and there's a little bit of that, ah you still have neighbors in space and you can't make a noise, which is annoying.
00:12:06
Red D
I did like Tom's suggestion of maybe we can get, I can't remember the name of the neighbor, but on in the night shift.
00:12:12
El Platypo
baar
00:12:13
Red D
bear But then Tom is astounded to discover that Harry has rehearsals with a crew member that he has been pursuing for six months.
00:12:22
El Platypo
ah
00:12:23
Red D
And I did really like the little final exchange that seen scene where Tom says something like, what, oh, like cold hands, cold heart.
00:12:31
El Platypo
Nickels?
00:12:31
Red D
and And Harry Kim was like, not when she's playing the oboe. Oh, the clarinet, can't remember what he said. I was like, oh my gosh, that's so cheesy.
00:12:37
Jen
me I think... no I think you're right because I think she plays the oboe doesn't she and he's playing the carolette.
00:12:42
Red D
ah yeah, it's not when she plays the oboe, yeah.
00:12:42
El Platypo
and
00:12:44
Jen
So no you're right you're right but yeah um I did enjoy that as well.
00:12:46
El Platypo
Star Trek in front of Bamshaka Wow Wow
00:12:49
Red D
Yes, and then the episode went in a whole different direction, but I did a Twitter.
00:12:54
Jen
It's a really good point I think Tom makes as well about that it does make sense that they would be stuck in these rooms that aren't soundproof because they weren't really meant to be there for long term you know you wouldn't
00:13:01
Red D
Yes.
00:13:04
Red D
Yes.
00:13:05
Jen
and wouldn't have been a priority when they were building the ship. I don't know why, I just like that there's like an actual like logical story reason for these things.
00:13:12
Red D
Yeah, I mean, they say something about like some of the conduits they carry the sound, and exactly, like it's very reasonable.
00:13:13
Jen
Oh
00:13:17
Red D
Yeah.
00:13:19
Jen
what's he doing?
00:13:20
Red D
Sorry, trying to ignore Jamie in the chat.
00:13:23
Jen
I... I tend to... i
00:13:25
El Platypo
I would go with acronyms of Bamshaka-Wal-Wal. I thought I'd say, see also, Awuga.
00:13:31
Jen
ten
00:13:33
Jen
I tend to just ignore the chat when I'm... ah Sorry, sorry, Jay.
00:13:36
Red D
the best. It's for the best.
00:13:37
Jen
Yeah, I read it after. often
00:13:39
El Platypo
I'll just start typing in obscenities in there. Fine. Gosh.
00:13:44
Red D
A bit like if I'm on a work call, I also ignore the chat. So please people don't try sending me messages in the chat. Just interrupt me while I'm speaking. We're in the same meeting.
00:13:52
Jen
Yes, yes. Oh, so, so agree.
00:13:53
Red D
Oh my God.
00:13:55
Jen
So many times I've been on calls and then I finished the call and then I read in the chat that there's a lot of things like, oh, good could I just say something? Or, you know, there is,
00:14:02
Red D
Yes, just open your mouth. Sorry.
00:14:05
El Platypo
division
00:14:05
Jen
Or, you know, like, oh, I have to drop off early. It's like, oh, gosh.
00:14:09
Red D
ah Okay, that's fine.
00:14:09
Jen
But I mean, I understand it. It's a bit awkward. You don't want to ruin the flow.
00:14:12
Jen
Yeah,
00:14:12
Red D
Yes, if you're not wanting to contribute to the discussion, are you like, I'm dropping off or be right back or whatever?
00:14:19
Red D
Yes, of course. But if sometimes people are like, oh, could you mention this? I'm like, just open your mouth and say, hey, Natalie, why don't you mention this? Oh, okay, sorry.
00:14:27
Jen
yeah. yeah It's a good point, yeah.
00:14:31
Red D
Back to you, Jenny. Yes,
00:14:31
Jen
Now I'm like you, I can't i can't focus on, I'm not very good at focusing on two things at once.
00:14:35
Red D
because I'm so focused on the meeting and and like, yeah, I can't be doing this.
00:14:38
Jen
Yeah. Plus I feel like it puts the presenter or the like core leaders at a bit of a disadvantage because you know, they can't be looking at the chat while they're like presenting or leading the discussions, can they?
00:14:45
El Platypo
Yes.
00:14:48
Red D
yes
00:14:49
El Platypo
True. True.
00:14:50
Jen
Anywho, that's my rant over.
00:14:52
Red D
Jamie's like, I spent all meetings chatting all the time.
00:14:52
Jen
and
00:14:54
Red D
Sorry.
00:14:54
Jen
Yeah, it really does.
00:14:55
El Platypo
yeah I mean, yes. Yes, I do.
00:15:00
Jen
Well, you have some insight now into how some of your colleagues might kill Jane, if they're not the same as you.
00:15:05
El Platypo
and I only want to make them feel more that way.
00:15:11
Jen
Anyway, right. So um I'm just gonna give one of my little short notes. um I just quite like a lot of the quotes in this. um I mean, this is a super arrogant quote from Janeway here, and yet I love it when she says, Starfeak captains don't easily succumb to fear.
00:15:30
Jen
I just love that bit. um And I quite like ah quite like all the other those other little ones as well.
00:15:32
Red D
It was good.
00:15:35
Jen
Like I think, I'm not sure who says this, that they're talking about if illusion is your only reality, then the illusion is your reality, which is one to think about.
00:15:49
Red D
Yes. Actually, I...
00:15:49
Jen
Matrixy.
00:15:49
El Platypo
Cartesian.
00:15:51
El Platypo
Cartesian.
00:15:55
Jen
And that's me.
00:15:58
Jen
Jamie.
00:15:59
El Platypo
I mean, I just want to talk about the fact I think this is the best Doctor episode ever. Not Starting off from his first appearance where he is at the point ah where Harry is at the point of being carved open by the fear clown as part of his childhood nightmare recurrent from an experience where he wandered off in a hospital and found a poor little girl being cut up with a scalpel.
00:16:09
Red D
Oh, so good.
00:16:25
El Platypo
Um, The Doctor's entrance, just as that was about to be re-enacted by the Fear Clown, cutting through all the chaos of the scene with a perfectly patronising, utterly calm, that's not how you hold a scalpel, you need to put your index finger along the top of the blade to maintain control, as a way of so turning something which should sound absolutely chilling into the most reassuring and, oh my gosh, thank goodness there's a grown-up-in-the-room moment ever.
00:16:53
El Platypo
So I just want to build on that, to say that I found the Doctor the perfect contretemps to actually what I found quite a jarring performance by the Fear Clown. And, I mean, it was so composed and there that I, yeah, it was a rare element of, or a rare example of a good character who gives a performance so strong that it sort of,
00:17:19
El Platypo
eclipses the bad guy's performance. do you know what I mean? I thought the Doctor was magnificent. ah I'd value your take on what it was like this episode. Did you enjoy him, was he was he just too calm?
00:17:32
Red D
Well, I mean, one of my points was I loved his entrance, that entrance that you just described. It was so good.
00:17:38
Jen
I agree.
00:17:39
Red D
And also you're like, oh, what a good solution. Because just before that, they were thinking of like, how do they get hostages out? How do they send someone in? And I didn't think of sending the doctor for some reason. was like, ah, genius.
00:17:50
Red D
And his entrance was so good.
00:17:52
Jen
Yeah, he was the hero, wasn't he? That was brilliant entrance. I agree.
00:17:58
Jen
I'm not sure I'd agree about him in this particular episode, because you know how I love the Doctor, but about him eclipsing the guy who plays the clown though. Because I do think, probably just don't know who it is, but I do think that guy did a great job.
00:18:12
Jen
Because, i mean, that character is awful. Like, you know, but I think that's the sign of a really good baddie when they're really terrifying or you really hate them or fear them.
00:18:19
El Platypo
Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:23
Jen
um Or even, you know, some baddies are framed as they make you really uncomfortable.
00:18:29
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:18:30
Jen
And I think that's quite a good baddie. And he he did do that for me anyway. It's, yeah.
00:18:35
Red D
Michael McKean, Michael McKean, don't know how to say his surname, but I just looked it up on Wikipedia.
00:18:38
El Platypo
That's boy.
00:18:38
Jen
Ah okay, Michael McKean.
00:18:43
El Platypo
Fear clown. Interesting though. I'm disappointed that others didn't enjoy the Doctor as much as I did, but such is life.
00:18:50
Jen
Well no, he I agree the entrance was amazing, i love that bit. and yeah I mean it was also pretty weird seeing him like physically fight and be overcome as well because there's not many episodes where that happens because either he's a hologram and you can't fight him physically.
00:19:00
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:19:02
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:19:06
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:19:06
Jen
um or in later episodes due to various reasons where he can sort of physically interact with various beings. um He's usually like quite strong isn't he?
00:19:20
Jen
If I'm remembering correctly. Anyway. ah but Blah blah blah. Reds!
00:19:24
Red D
but they yeah i go to say Were there any other movements apart from the the entrance? Because for me that's what stood out for the doctor. But... to
00:19:31
El Platypo
it It was just his calm in every interaction with the fear clown that to me did it if that makes sense it was just uh how does someone manage to silence an atmosphere of chaos and that effectively with just their acting voice um yeah i love that
00:19:50
Red D
Hmm...
00:19:54
Red D
Oh, he was good. I think I'm next, is that what you're saying, Jenny?
00:19:59
Jen
Yep, over to you, Red.
00:19:59
Red D
um Yes, so I guess I did really enjoy, i mean, I don't, oh gosh, sorry about that. How did that happen?
00:20:10
Red D
My team doesn't even open and I get a notification.
00:20:12
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:20:12
Red D
um
00:20:13
Jen
we didn't We didn't hear it.
00:20:14
Red D
Oh, didn't you? Okay, good. um I did love how this was like the matrix
Podcast Dynamics and Thematic Exploration
00:20:19
Red D
felt before four years before the Matrix.
00:20:19
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:20:21
Red D
And I guess the Matrix is, I'm sure there's tons of sci-fi history and that went into the Matrix at this concept.
00:20:25
El Platypo
Yeah. yeah yeah
00:20:27
Red D
But for me, it was just like, ah, it's like the Matrix.
00:20:30
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:20:30
Red D
um The idea of the simulated world in your brain.
00:20:33
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:20:33
Red D
But if you die in the Matrix, you still you die in real life, which is how it worked in the Star Trek episode as well. And also, just type up what you were saying, I also did really enjoy that mystery part that you were saying, Jenny, you're like, they're trying to discover it, and then you realize I don't know, the thought of being scared to death really like sends chills down your spoil my spine and because you're like, but that shouldn't kill you, but the power of your mind and emotion that it can can do that.
00:20:53
Jen
Hmm.
00:21:00
Red D
So i ah yeah i just loved, I guess, the parallels or the comparison for me in The Matrix. Because I love The Matrix. There's only like three films I've ever watched. I'm trying to prove that, but The Matrix, The Lord of the Rings and ah The Wrestler is kind of like my favourite one.
00:21:19
Red D
So yeah, but I enjoyed that element. And I could just... Yeah, that's all I have to say about that, really.
00:21:26
Jen
Yeah, I love all that element as well. It was brilliant. I wonder where the Matrix got its ideas from.
00:21:33
Red D
Well, spot it's interesting because I think there's some people I've read occasionally that actually they stole the idea from another... the screenplay from like ah someone else, like a woman, apparently. But then it's just like, well...
00:21:45
Red D
This idea has obviously been floating around for a long time, haven't read that person's script, so I can't say, but it's just interesting to see the, for me, a very short history of that idea, which I'm sure it goes further back, but yeah.
00:21:47
Jen
Yeah, yeah. i
00:21:59
Jen
Yeah, but The Matrix did do it so well, to be fair.
00:22:02
Red D
Oh yes, that's so good.
00:22:04
Jen
I did enjoy that movie. Cool, right, it's back to me then, I guess. So, I had a question for you guys. I feel like, I don't know if the ah that there was a question of what does fear want other than to exist?
00:22:23
Red D
Oh.
00:22:24
Jen
And I feel like it probably was answered, but I'm not really clear on the answer. I wanted to ask whether you guys got a sense of whether that question was answered.
00:22:34
Red D
oh
00:22:35
El Platypo
Well, it was weird because it was voiced in two ways. One, what does fear want? And two, what is fear for? And... I'm not sure if the answer to be conquered wasn't given in the end to what is fear for rather than what does fear want?
00:22:57
El Platypo
And because of that... it made me think that it wasn't so much based around the clown's perception as opposed to just fear as a general thing. But that's a nuance, I think.
00:23:09
Jen
Oh, that does make sense.
00:23:14
Red D
I think fear wants it to exist, right? But if I think about me, oh how I did fear, well, I don't really think of it as fear, but I guess that is what it is.
00:23:19
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:23:21
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:23:23
Red D
is I want things to stay the same.
00:23:24
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:23:26
Red D
So you could argue but that clown wants things to stay the same so they can continue existing. But as human beings, I think you know sometimes we want things to stay the same. Or if the fear makes us take action to keep things the same.
00:23:40
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:23:42
Jen
I figured it might be that it wanted to be comp but purely based on the last very final scene with Janeway where she said something about the clown knowing that she would come and she would end his existence and that's why he agreed the hostage shop.
00:23:47
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:23:51
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:23:56
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:24:04
El Platypo
because deep down he wanted to be ended.
00:24:07
Jen
Yeah, you want you know he was he was tired of, she said, you're tired of this as much as your hostages were or something along my lines. So I wonder if that was that was the answer.
00:24:17
Jen
um
00:24:18
Red D
I guess no one wants to live in a perpetual state of fear. It's not really supposed to be a long, a permanent state.
00:24:23
El Platypo
Yeah. And but I mean, that was almost the logical extension of the captain's
00:24:32
El Platypo
explanation of the purpose of fear, which was to protect us rule us.
00:24:40
Jen
Yeah, I loved, I think I wrote that as one of my other um comments, but yeah, like I love all the cheesy metaphors in this and like the fear holding you hostage, you know, which, you know, is a key life lesson, I feel.
00:24:40
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:24:42
El Platypo
I love that too. Yeah.
00:24:47
El Platypo
Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:51
Jen
so
00:24:51
Red D
Yes, gosh. I didn't even think of it like that, but that's literally the message.
00:24:56
Jen
let me do that
00:24:59
Red D
We have a character called Fear and he has all stages.
00:24:59
Jen
i mean
00:25:01
Jen
yes I think it's a great concept.
00:25:04
El Platypo
this
00:25:05
Red D
Yeah.
00:25:05
El Platypo
Actually, yeah, that's such a direct metaphor.
00:25:07
Red D
I didn't quite. So direct, I didn't notice. were
00:25:11
Jen
Yeah, ah ah it kind of li I feel like it kind of links to another point, which I'm just gonna say, because it's a really quick one. was a bit confused by the title for this episode, because I feel like they could have gone so many creative ways with this, like around the fear element.
00:25:23
Red D
Oh yes, yeah.
00:25:26
Jen
You know, fear knows, I thought they say fear knows no bounds, hostage to fear, cool it call it coolrophobia, which is apparently the name for fear of clans.
00:25:33
Red D
Yes.
00:25:37
Jen
But um they they called it the Thor, which is,
00:25:38
Red D
Oh yes.
00:25:41
Red D
Which is such a small part of the show, slash a lot part the show, yeah.
00:25:42
Jen
Yeah, it's like this one bit right at the start, which is explaining how this situation came into being, but it seems such a strange choice for the title. But then i thought maybe they chose that on purpose to not give anything away.
00:25:56
Red D
Hmm. Yes, maybe.
00:26:00
Jen
Anyway, over to you, Jamie.
00:26:05
El Platypo
Absolutely fair enough. So I suppose my next one is... i
00:26:15
El Platypo
i just found the costume and the vibe really similar to the look of the prisoner. um
00:26:19
Red D
I have look this up now. um Have you seen The Prisoner Jenny?
00:26:21
El Platypo
It was Patrick McGuinnis, but I looked it up, so it's such an odd and weird thing, but um it was basically a surrealist spy drama.
00:26:24
Jen
Tammy made me maybe watch it.
00:26:33
El Platypo
and Hang on, I think there might be cats eating crisps. but Basically, it was a surrealist spy drama with Patrick McGuinnis.
00:26:37
Red D
ah Oh, they're on a chess board.
00:26:45
Red D
Sorry, I found a picture.
00:26:45
El Platypo
Yes. Well, Interrelia.
00:26:46
Red D
Yes.
00:26:47
El Platypo
Interrelia. They're on a chessboard, so um Yeah, it was um it was an absolute classic, a cult classic, but um it was also like not looking as though it wasn't cheap budget, basically,
Star Trek: Genre Blending and Storytelling
00:27:03
Red D
Oh, no.
00:27:03
El Platypo
and also surrealist, which is why it sort of reminded me a lot of this.
00:27:07
El Platypo
And um yeah, it's just the look and all of the weirdness was very like some of the more sort of frankly batshit insane episodes of the prisoner and i really loved that and i recommend anyone to go and look at watch it but i also wasn't really sort of expecting that from sci-fi with all of the big sort of hollywood budgets and things like that um
00:27:19
Jen
Thank you.
00:27:23
Red D
Yes, I'm going to do it.
00:27:32
El Platypo
because the prisoner was literally done, i found out, because they Patrick McGowan's studio had rejected one of his proposals and effectively they said, just give us anything low budget and we'll do it so that we can keep you.
00:27:48
El Platypo
And so the prisoner was immensely low budget in this little village in Wales. in wales um
00:27:53
Red D
Haha.
00:27:54
Jen
Port Miriam or something, wasn't it?
00:27:54
El Platypo
So, Pontmaryan indeed, which I gather is Italianate in look, according to the Wikipedia page. And um yeah, it's just a bit weird for there to be that commonality between completely different, random genres and...
00:28:11
El Platypo
Maybe that says something about how much Star Trek can bridge so many genres in so few episodes, that it does that. It goes from total science fantasy to surrealism to, I don't know, the Matrix all in one go.
00:28:27
Red D
going to have to watch this, Prisoner. ah What I was would say is that this did remind me of that Deep Space Nine episode. I've just found the episode name.
00:28:33
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:28:34
Red D
I think it's called Move Along Home.
00:28:36
El Platypo
Oh, wow.
00:28:36
Red D
jenny ah jamie Where they play that game, and it's but suddenly it's actually a life and death game. like a It's like an in-person board game type stuff, but then it somehow becomes life and death situation.
00:28:44
El Platypo
Oh,
00:28:49
El Platypo
no know where're harry fakin up the I now know where Harry got the idea for the chess game in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban.
00:28:49
Red D
Which is also not one of my favorite Deep Space Nine episodes, so I'm saying it's like a theme now.
00:28:50
Jen
Rings a bell.
00:28:54
Jen
Sounds like Jumanji.
00:28:58
Red D
yeah
00:29:01
El Platypo
and Not the Prisoner Azkaban, the Lost for Stone.
00:29:02
Red D
I think I mean but yes I mean it's a very vague memory I haven't watched Deep Space Nine in a while but it was like this reminds you of an episode where they're playing a game but surreal
00:29:11
El Platypo
okay.
00:29:12
Jen
I'll have to, I was thinking I have to re-watch that sometime because I've only ever once watched Deep Space Nine all the way through, just literally just because you said you loved it, Red.
00:29:17
El Platypo
Yes.
00:29:20
Jen
It was a few years ago, so I don't remember that one.
00:29:20
Red D
oh yes
00:29:20
El Platypo
Yes.
00:29:23
Jen
But having ja Jamie mentioned The Prisoner, i just Googled it and it's reminded me of when I did watch a few episodes because he told me he loved it and I wanted it to see what it was about. And like, it's just reminded me of those giant white balls that follow him around. It's so It's so weird, you gotta watch it Red, like just one episode.
00:29:43
Red D
Oh, wow. Oh, cool.
00:29:44
Jen
It's really, really strange. I think the where it was filmed is that like, so they built this, I mean, don't quote me on this, I'm maybe wrong, but they built the set on this tiny little sort of island off Wales, which still exists as in the set still exists and you can go and visit and it's kind of become like a little holiday resort.
00:29:53
El Platypo
hmm
00:29:58
El Platypo
hmm hmm
00:30:04
Red D
oh wow
00:30:08
El Platypo
smith
00:30:09
Red D
oh
00:30:10
Jen
We should visit it one day.
00:30:12
Red D
Yeah, it's definitely cool.
00:30:15
Jen
Anywho. Right, so that was, who was that?
00:30:17
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:30:19
Jen
That was Jamie, wasn't it? So Red, over to you.
00:30:21
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:30:22
Red D
Yes, so this is... Maybe I'll collapse three things into one. I don't know, because... ah um Oh, maybe I'll stick to one, but this is very random. But at the end of last year, i went to the Barbie exhibition at the Design Museum here in London.
00:30:35
El Platypo
ah
00:30:36
Red D
It was great. I went with my sister. It was actually amazing. It brought back so many memories and then the history of the Barbies. And anyway, it was very fascinating. But that's um every time someone nearly got beheaded, that execution guillotine thing was the Barbie pink.
00:30:54
Red D
It was like the very, it was exciting.
00:30:55
Jen
to
00:30:57
Red D
And so I was like, if there was and I said it was, could take me back to that exhibition and to Barbie. And i was like, that color is exactly the Barbie color, I think. So I noticed that.
00:31:07
Jen
I think they that's what they did so well this episode is this really warped um sort of happy colourful clown happy music um against the contrast of people being beheaded like being men tortured and cut open and all kinds of
00:31:15
Red D
Yes.
00:31:15
El Platypo
ah Yeah.
00:31:24
Red D
And someone really was beheaded on that Bobby Gillard scene. So it was really, yeah, very creepy.
00:31:29
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:31:30
Red D
I mean, like in a good, like in a storytelling way.
00:31:32
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:31:33
Jen
Yeah. It reminds me of the but kind of villain that you get with...
00:31:35
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:31:39
Jen
I don't know if remember, there was one of the Daniel Craig James Bond movies where there was the South American baddie. can't remember his name.
00:31:47
El Platypo
Yep. Yeah. I know. I have to go about them.
00:31:48
Jen
and
00:31:52
Jen
Yeah, that's it. um And I just thought he was such an excellent baddie because he was scary but also made you feel really uncomfortable. It was a really, it was kind of creepy, not just scary.
00:32:02
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:32:04
Red D
Is that why he's in the Uber Eats or something adverts now as the baddie who just wants to take a break?
00:32:09
El Platypo
ah
00:32:10
Red D
um
00:32:10
Jen
I haven't seen that.
00:32:12
El Platypo
Probably.
00:32:12
Red D
If I'm thinking, I'm sure ah because I haven't seen all those Daniel Craig Bonds.
00:32:18
Jen
Oh, I love the Daniel Craig films.
00:32:20
Red D
ah No offense to him. I just don't watch a lot of movies. ah So I was like, why have they caused Harvey about them as this baddie? But if he was a baddie in Bond, then that makes sense.
00:32:31
Jen
Oh that, yeah that be it. He was, i mean...
00:32:33
Red D
Because he's like ah really a baddie with like a fortress yeah and minions in this advert.
00:32:39
Jen
Oh yeah that'd be why. He was such a good baddie.
00:32:43
Jen
But then it's really weird because he's like the main love interest in that cheesy Julia Roberts movie about eat, love, pray.
00:32:49
El Platypo
at that.
00:32:52
Jen
So I guess he has a wide acting repertoire.
00:32:54
El Platypo
and here as beautiful as that
00:32:57
Red D
Yes, he's very attractive, but I guess he's not typecast either, so lucky for him.
00:33:00
Jen
man Yeah.
00:33:05
Jen
So where are we? Back to me. I've lost track.
00:33:09
Red D
Oh.
00:33:10
El Platypo
I think so.
00:33:10
Red D
Yes, here we are back to you.
00:33:10
El Platypo
don't
00:33:11
Jen
Okay. What have I not covered?
00:33:17
Jen
gosh, I think I've nearly covered all mine.
Fear as Metaphor and Storytelling Device
00:33:19
Jen
I have a tiny little, ah like the ending, they see basically, basically.
00:33:23
El Platypo
know.
00:33:24
Red D
Okay, yeah.
00:33:24
Jen
um I just love the little track that the clown pops out with at the end.
00:33:31
Red D
Oh. Yes.
00:33:31
Jen
when he is about to no longer exist, but also he's experiencing fear himself. I just love the, I don't know, is it dramatic irony? I don't know, the sort of full circle of that.
00:33:42
El Platypo
this
00:33:44
Red D
Yeah.
00:33:45
Jen
And then he realizes he's been bested by Janeway. He says, just before he dies. Well, not dies, but ceases to exist.
00:33:50
El Platypo
ah Such a small drat, yeah.
00:33:53
Red D
It just fades away. that like ah the correct...
00:33:56
Jen
and Yeah, because it's not like he's dying.
00:33:58
El Platypo
yeah say
00:33:59
Red D
That's that one.
00:34:00
Jen
it's just ceasing to be, which is sort of the same thing, but not, I don't
00:34:06
Red D
And then they cut...
00:34:07
El Platypo
He's fading away like fear does when you've overcome it.
00:34:07
Red D
Oh sorry Jamie.
00:34:10
Jen
know. Hmm.
00:34:12
Red D
And how did you feel about the cut directly to credits?
00:34:12
Jen
Yep.
00:34:17
Jen
Oh, didn't notice just that.
00:34:18
El Platypo
Yeah, it wasn't... I think it was quite a nice way of sort of quieting and ending. um And it was in in tune with that thing of fear fading away.
00:34:28
El Platypo
It possibly enhanced that feeling, albeit unconsciously for me. But how did you feel about it?
00:34:35
Red D
I think I just... It was different, I guess. I just noticed it. It seemed quite... because normally there's not really a... don't know if they call it... not a button, as the term is now sometimes, for like a bit of comedy.
00:34:44
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:34:46
Red D
It's not a sitcom, so they wouldn't have a button.
00:34:47
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:34:48
Red D
and But I was kind of expecting it to go back to Voyager, and then I just went to...
00:34:52
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:34:54
Red D
It was, think, effective ending, but unusual.
00:34:56
El Platypo
Interesting. Interesting.
00:34:58
Jen
Yeah, now you say that it's really, yeah, seems really obvious and I quite like that.
00:35:03
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:35:04
Jen
didn't occur to me at the time that were missing the end credits. Good point, Red.
00:35:09
Red D
Bye.
00:35:10
Jen
Do you have any other notes, Jamie?
00:35:14
El Platypo
I do, yes. So, you seem to, sorry, looks like you were doing it. I, I mean, loved the captain's rationalisation of fear because she did it in a way that I thought to myself, if I think of fear that way,
00:35:33
El Platypo
it a really, really helps with management of it, but B there's a lot in there. So as a bloke growing up, you're like often taught, like if you feel scared, you're, you know, wuss and things like that.
00:35:48
El Platypo
And to try and disregard it or take it out of your decision-making processes. And you're almost ironically by being, molded to approach fear in a very negative sort of way.
00:36:05
El Platypo
You're almost molded to be afraid of being afraid because of what it says about your character. Whereas Janeway's way of making fear both a friend and a useful tool by rationalizing it as saying fear is your friend.
00:36:23
El Platypo
It's there to identify threats and not making a big thing about what the fact you feel fear says about your status, how masculine or manly you are or other things like that.
00:36:36
El Platypo
It actually was a really useful way of understanding that emotion without the sort of labels that I have found typically just you know random cisgen cis white male have found have been incredibly unhelpful in my life um so I liked that yeah that was a bit of a serious monologue
00:37:04
Red D
Hmm.
00:37:06
Jen
No, it's a good point though.
00:37:06
Red D
Yeah. yeah
00:37:09
Jen
Yeah, I think it's a great rationalization of it as well. You know, it's a evolutionary,
00:37:13
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:37:15
Jen
um it's a trait that, you know, has been helpful to, as you say, identify threats. And I always quite liked the idea of fear as well. I think that's some kind of saying that talks about um the idea that you can't actually experience or you can't experience bravery if you don't have fear.
00:37:36
Jen
like
00:37:36
El Platypo
yeah
00:37:36
Jen
If you don't have fear, nothing you're doing is brave. And so on that, with that concept, it's also a positive thing.
00:37:47
Jen
And I quite like bit the idea of both of those. What do you think, Red?
00:37:52
Red D
Yeah, I mean, that that was very interesting. And obviously, I did not grow up as a boy. But what one thing I will say is, as a child, a young, young child, like five, my catchphrase was, you must be careful.
00:38:04
Red D
So I don't know what that says about it.
00:38:05
Jen
No.
00:38:06
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:38:06
Red D
So i feel like as an adult, i not that i remember to do this all the time, I certainly don't.
00:38:12
El Platypo
ah sister
00:38:12
Red D
But I've learned things or sayings where it's like, if you feel if you feel afraid, that's a sign you should do it. Obviously, I'm not talking about like physical fear or fear of safety or something.
00:38:19
El Platypo
yes yes yes
00:38:21
Red D
But, you and you If you try to make a decision and you're afraid to do something because it's new or something, the fear is actually a sign that you should be doing it. um
00:38:30
El Platypo
and
00:38:31
Red D
Again, not putting yourself in danger or not listening to your gut or that kind of stuff.
00:38:34
Jen
this is
00:38:35
El Platypo
yes
00:38:35
Red D
But for someone who's like overly cautious and careful, then it's trying to use fear as a guide. Again, not really succeeded in achieving this. But some I do try to think about it from time to time.
00:38:48
Jen
Yeah, it's similar to when you're told... that so I guess I played instruments growing up and you know that you always sent off to little mini concerts to perform and things and so you're told by adults you know how to...
00:39:00
Red D
Oh, yes.
00:39:02
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:39:03
Jen
you know you say are you nervous and how you can overcome your nerves and things and One of the of the standard advice was about how if you're nervous, then you know ah's so that's a good sign. And you know that means that you you care about the performance and it's a positive thing and you should embrace it.
00:39:27
Jen
I'm not sure. I mean, and it wasn't that helpful to be honest.
00:39:27
Red D
that would have been very helpful for me when I was...
00:39:30
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:39:32
Red D
ah
00:39:32
Jen
i think Well, maybe it was, maybe I would have been worse if I hadn't been taught these things, but i it didn't get rid of the nerves, but then I suppose it's certainly attempting to get rid of them.
00:39:36
El Platypo
it
00:39:39
Red D
No, but you, yeah, I mean, one of the most helpful things I ever read was about Adele, how she throws up with the nerves before every performance. And I was like, oh my God, is she still sound...
00:39:46
Jen
Oh, wow. Oh my gosh.
00:39:48
El Platypo
Oh yeah.
00:39:49
Red D
I mean, I don't know, this was a few years ago, maybe 10, like, so offense, Adele, if you've got over this, but i was like, okay, she's getting stage fright then.
00:39:52
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:39:54
El Platypo
No.
00:39:56
Red D
Not stage fright, but, you know.
00:39:57
El Platypo
Yeah. I mean, do do you ever ever remember hearing of a row called Alex Partridge, um, Alex Gregory even?
00:40:04
Red D
Oh
00:40:05
El Platypo
So during the time that we were rowing, he was basically considered pretty much the best of the the best technical rower in the GB Olympic four that, you know, he won, he won, I think two or three Olympic gold medals, but before every single trials and every single international race, he'd throw up.
00:40:06
Jen
Nope. Wow. Mm-hmm.
00:40:17
Red D
ah yeah, it does look some familiar.
00:40:28
Red D
Oh yes, I can understand. When I was a student, i was nauseous for a week before we went to recattes.
00:40:30
Jen
wow
00:40:34
Red D
Yes. Yes.
00:40:34
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:40:35
Jen
I mean, I definitely felt very sick before 2k tests. Weirdly more for 2k tests on the rowing machine than for actual races.
00:40:41
El Platypo
Yeah. I was never that scared of rowing races, I agree.
00:40:47
Jen
I think part of it for me was because you, well, for me, I was always in a and a team in a real race.
00:40:47
El Platypo
It's weird.
00:40:53
Red D
yeah
00:40:53
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:40:54
Jen
So that's very reassuring.
00:40:56
Jen
Whereas when you're on, you're being judged on your score on a rowing machine, it's just you.
00:40:56
Red D
yes
00:40:56
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:41:01
Jen
You win the pain.
00:41:01
Red D
Yeah.
00:41:02
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:41:02
Red D
No escape.
00:41:04
Jen
No, it's okay. Anywho, Red, I feel like um you'll have to do like five in one because you've got more names.
00:41:10
Red D
Oh no, actually have covered most of the others and I'll say one for the star player. um But the only thing I wanted to say was baby Harry Kim.
00:41:21
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:41:22
Red D
He was so cute and his little star player uniform.
00:41:23
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:41:25
Red D
I love Harry Kim, also sweet, but baby Harry Kim.
00:41:26
Jen
An elderly Harry Kim.
00:41:31
Red D
Oh, I love baby Harry Kip. Sorry.
00:41:35
Jen
Oh, elderly Harry Kim was pretty weird, freaky, to see him.
00:41:38
Red D
I mean, didn't look that much like Harry for me.
00:41:42
Jen
Yeah.
00:41:43
Red D
Whereas the baby looked exactly like Harry.
00:41:46
El Platypo
Hello?
00:41:47
Jen
I also...
00:41:49
Red D
yeah
00:41:49
Jen
God.
00:41:50
Red D
I could just see the similarity more between ah the baby than the elderly Harry.
00:41:54
El Platypo
Hello?
00:41:55
Jen
Yeah, I see that. And also, ah felt kind of bad for that baby. Because it was being...
00:42:01
Red D
Yeah, was like, how do they get to cry?
00:42:03
Jen
Yeah, it was being held by the clown and then that scary other character, the one that Jamie mentioned that was just a gigantic black thing with teeth was looking over it leering over it.
00:42:03
El Platypo
this
00:42:06
El Platypo
no
00:42:11
El Platypo
yeah
00:42:13
Jen
Poor baby.
00:42:13
Red D
wonder it was crying.
00:42:15
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:42:16
Red D
Yes, because that, sorry, go ahead.
00:42:16
El Platypo
Although... No, no, good.
00:42:20
Red D
I mean, that is a really good point because when I listen to Office Ladies and they talk about when they have like, they've had to have, you know, some babies and children around to play characters, children. cuties. um And it's like a big deal. And they get twins and the parents, like there's, you know, like they're not allowed to be on set for more than two seconds. I mean, I'm exaggerating, but it's such a big deal. This baby was just crying. What about these monsters? That's a very good point, Jenny.
00:42:46
Jen
I just can't imagine being the parent and wanting that to happen, but I don't know.
00:42:49
Red D
Yeah.
00:42:51
Jen
I mean, wow, Jay is showing the adorable cats in the background.
00:42:56
Red D
He's showing off now.
00:42:57
Jen
This is very distracting. Okay, any any other final final notes? Anyone?
00:43:03
El Platypo
and
00:43:04
Red D
I had a question for everyone, but that's Jamie.
00:43:08
El Platypo
um do you Do you know what? Go for it. I was just going say that I loved the third reveal feel of it all, but that was it.
00:43:14
Red D
That's a good, keep going.
00:43:16
El Platypo
I had nothing else. It was Vodavilian. There was lots of it.
00:43:20
Red D
So you like you like the low budget vaudevillian effects?
00:43:20
El Platypo
I don't even...
00:43:24
El Platypo
I mean, I just...
00:43:25
Red D
Ah,
00:43:25
El Platypo
I don't know if i like it for Star Trek. I like it generally. I'm not sure if I like it in Star Trek, so I'm torn.
00:43:27
Red D
okay, interesting. Okay, that makes sense.
00:43:30
El Platypo
I don't
00:43:32
Jen
I realized have a comment on one of your comments, Red.
00:43:35
Red D
Oh yeah, girlfriend.
00:43:36
Jen
I note that further down you say something about the next podcast and the next episode.
00:43:40
Red D
Oh yes, yes.
00:43:41
El Platypo
know.
00:43:42
Jen
And that was me. Oh God, I hate the next one. But I also think it's great. I think it's a really interesting exploratory kind of one, but ah well exploratory, not really like space exploratory, but more more like, you know, ideas and ethics, but yeah,
00:43:51
Red D
It's, yeah.
00:43:57
Red D
Ethics. Yeah, philosophy. So we're talking about two Vicks in case you're wondering, listener.
00:44:04
El Platypo
Yeah, that well-known phenomenon.
00:44:07
Jen
It's another one I always really remember well.
00:44:08
El Platypo
What, they're huge in Korea in the 80s.
00:44:11
Red D
Jamie, this is probably second only to the salamander episode in terms of controversy.
00:44:18
Jen
I mean, yeah, I can understand why.
00:44:22
Red D
It's a big episode.
00:44:23
Jen
mean, yeah.
00:44:24
Red D
We should... ah yeah And it'll be our... No, it'll be 40th episode. So... Yes. so
00:44:30
Jen
Oh, we have to bring a glass of fizz.
00:44:32
Red D
and yes yeah
00:44:34
Jen
virtually toast
00:44:34
El Platypo
still not on our seven thousandth listener, so I'm not dressing as Q yet.
00:44:38
Red D
Okay, I haven't checked recently, but...
00:44:41
Jen
I'm sure you said hundredth listener hmm
00:44:43
El Platypo
I think I remember.
00:44:45
Red D
Well, we kind of hit a thousand, so get ready.
00:44:47
Jen
and
00:44:48
Red D
um did have a question, which I will maybe just throw out. and Is there any situation in life where you would opt for to go to stasis for 15 years?
00:44:59
El Platypo
Yes.
00:45:01
Red D
Or maybe and maybe not 15 years. Let's say from one year to 15 years.
00:45:07
Jen
Would you have...
00:45:07
Red D
Jamie, you said yes. What situations?
00:45:10
El Platypo
I just think you can't rule anything out.
00:45:12
Red D
Okay.
00:45:13
Jen
Would you have aged?
00:45:16
Red D
Oh. ah Minimally.
00:45:20
El Platypo
What, like a year?
00:45:21
Red D
Yeah. Well, I mean, but you know you're not going to see the sun, so no.
00:45:26
El Platypo
i think I would probably do it to be able to visit Pandora.
00:45:31
Red D
Where is Pandora? Oh, is Pandora a planet?
00:45:33
El Platypo
Planet Pandora, yes.
00:45:34
Red D
Oh, okay. Okay.
00:45:35
Jen
I think that...
00:45:35
El Platypo
The planet from Avatar.
00:45:37
Red D
Yes, it was space travel for sure.
00:45:38
Jen
I mean, in I think there are, because if you think of the most extreme situation, you've got terminal illness and you're going to die next week.
00:45:45
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:45:46
Jen
And then there's a chance in 15 years they might have found drugs to extend your life.
00:45:50
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:45:50
Red D
Oh.
00:45:53
Jen
then Then you might choose it.
00:45:54
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:45:55
Red D
Yeah.
00:45:57
Jen
But
00:45:57
Red D
Well, yeah.
00:45:57
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:45:58
Red D
That's a good one. I haven't thought that.
00:46:00
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:46:01
Jen
I think there might be an episode on that somewhere.
00:46:03
Red D
Yes.
00:46:04
Jen
Or maybe not in Star Trek, but on some show. I don't know.
00:46:08
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:46:08
Jen
what would What about you, Red?
00:46:09
Red D
i wish i could go into i mean mine wouldn one year is too long I wish I could go into stasis for flying I didn't have to be aware of what was going on.
00:46:15
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:46:19
Red D
I guess you can take sleeping pills or something.
00:46:19
Jen
be great, wouldn't it? It's not the same though.
00:46:20
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:46:21
Red D
but yeah um For space travel, you said, definitely. and yeah for I guess if you want a treatment that's not available yet, for sure.
00:46:34
Jen
if I mean, if you're going to die anyway, just seems like.
00:46:37
Red D
Yeah, and there's that's a very, I mean, the rest there seem worth it. No, I hadn't actually thought myself. i I was just curious.
00:46:45
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:46:47
Jen
And, you know, in the world of sci-fi, if the planet is about to be destroyed and you're they're going to send you in stasis in a pod to more habitable planet to start a colony, i
Narrative Techniques and Character Analysis
00:46:58
Jen
mean, why not?
00:46:58
El Platypo
ah so
00:46:59
Red D
Yeah, I'll take it. I'll take it.
00:47:02
Jen
Who's hoping that doesn't happen?
00:47:04
Red D
I think I have one of those people that would always opt for just one more minute of life or something, regardless of how dire the situation is, it case somehow something changed.
00:47:05
Jen
You must trust.
00:47:15
Red D
Like...
00:47:17
Jen
yeah yeah so themes I feel like I've written a million themes and no one else has written any themes
00:47:17
Red D
Hmm.
00:47:18
El Platypo
and
00:47:27
El Platypo
I, you're right. I, well, yeah.
00:47:31
Jen
I think you do you guys have themes in mind okay I'll start although I do feel like all of the themes I've written are based around the same theme so I don't know but obviously fear
00:47:34
Red D
I think you got you start, Jenny, because you've got a good list.
00:47:35
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:47:41
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:47:44
Jen
um How to conquer fear, illusion versus reality and I thought it reminds me a little bit of the Vulcan philosophy that control your emotions or your emotions control you.
00:47:46
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:47:54
El Platypo
Mm-hmm. Yep.
00:47:56
Jen
little bit of Vulcan philosophy I've always enjoyed.
00:47:57
El Platypo
Mm-hmm.
00:47:59
Jen
That's an element of that.
00:48:02
El Platypo
yeah
00:48:02
Jen
Because their fears are feeding the clown aren't they?
00:48:05
Red D
and
00:48:06
Jen
i mean I'm not sure that they'd be able to, it doesn't relate specifically to this scenario because I don't think it's about them trying to control their emotions I guess because they're hooked up by their brain so it's like not directly relevant I just thought that it reminded me of that Malcolm philosophy
00:48:27
El Platypo
Hmm. Yep. I would agree with that as well.
00:48:32
Red D
yeah
00:48:32
Jen
any other themes
00:48:33
Red D
I mean, there was, there was I mean, can't believe, they were literally held hostage to fear. I can't remember that. um But I also, thought I mean, ah for me, it's always more um just the power of the mind that those people could be scared to death, in a sense.
00:48:49
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:48:49
Red D
um Something, i think, yes, I think that was another thing for me.
00:48:57
El Platypo
Interesting.
00:48:58
Jen
you Well then, star player I think.
00:49:03
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:49:03
Red D
Okay.
00:49:04
Jen
Has anyone already decided?
00:49:06
Red D
I have decided.
00:49:06
El Platypo
No, I have not.
00:49:07
Red D
Okay,
00:49:08
Jen
Okay, we're gonna go to red first then, because I have not.
00:49:11
Red D
I have decided, but I'm also going to be issuing a statement on the Snow White movie.
00:49:15
El Platypo
Oh gosh, normally it's me that needs to preempt my words.
00:49:15
Jen
ah Okay.
00:49:15
Red D
ah
00:49:20
Red D
Sorry.
00:49:20
Jen
He's showing the statement.
00:49:20
Red D
i don't know why this has really bothered me ever since I read this about the Snow White movie. ah But I would like to give the um My Star Player to In the credits, well, maybe in the credits, on Wikipedia, she's credited as the little woman.
00:49:34
Red D
So that woman who was one of the affordable characters who starts off really, like, cute and, like, Harry Kim, like, knocks into her.
00:49:36
Jen
Oh. this? don't know.
00:49:43
Red D
He's like, oh, I'm sorry I knocked into you. And she's like, where are you from? And ah um was going to say Belladonna.
00:49:48
El Platypo
Outside, nowhere else.
00:49:50
Red D
Belladonna is like, another town. And she's like, there isn't another town. She's like, so sassy. And then she's, like, the assistant to the... um the executioner.
00:50:00
Red D
So think she played that character very well as that, you know, that twisting the like um fun clown, vulnerable character to something more sinister.
00:50:05
Jen
and
00:50:11
Red D
um And the reason why i guess I chose her is also because I, when I sometimes look at, you know different but the um guest stars there, she was played by Patty Malone, sorry.
00:50:22
Red D
um is I look their filmography and when I looked at hers, her okay, she was in quite a bit of TV, but she was active for at least 20 years and she's in so few films compared to other, you know, the actors that I've looked at. It was really quite striking.
00:50:37
Red D
And it made me think of the Snow White movie because I was astounded to discover that instead of casting seven little people or
Closing Reflections and Playful Farewells
00:50:45
Red D
people with dwarfism, the dwarf characters are CGI generated, which I think is like,
00:50:51
Red D
And in an attempt not to offend anyone, they took away seven acting opportunities for people you know with dwarfism.
00:50:59
El Platypo
Yes.
00:50:59
Jen
Oh, interesting.
00:51:00
Red D
So i i just wasn't like, I guess that was struck home by looking at her filmography and seeing it was quite short compared almost every other character i've ever looked at. And I can't say that's because she's a little person, but seems silly not to, when you have the opportunity, cast actual people with dwarfism in the roles.
00:51:09
El Platypo
Yes.
00:51:10
Jen
Yeah.
00:51:18
Jen
Yeah,
00:51:20
Red D
so I just wanted to say that she's my star player as well
00:51:25
Jen
it's difficult, isn't it? Yeah, she was really good when she gave that response. There are no other towns.
00:51:32
Red D
yeah she's like you're busted you know kind of like and don't take me for a fool yes
00:51:32
Jen
Sinister.
00:51:35
Jen
and i think, yeah, I think it was the first sign that things weren't all happy, clappy, cheery as well. Because when they first arrived, there was lots of dancing and singing and music and and people appearing nice.
00:51:42
El Platypo
Yeah. Yes.
00:51:47
Jen
And that one little statement was the first sign that it was all a bit surface level. And underneath there was something terrifying.
00:51:56
Red D
Yes. Yeah.
00:51:59
Jen
Cool. All right, Jay, do you have your
00:52:02
El Platypo
Oh, I am going to nominate the dentist who does the gnashes on the enormous giant shadow that's three meters tall and has a set of teeth.
00:52:12
Jen
have yours?
00:52:14
Red D
Is this person ever up on screen?
00:52:16
El Platypo
Yeah, well, yeah, quite. Because that person is owning their money. Oh, my days.
00:52:23
Red D
I have to go back, I didn't notice- I just noticed like the shaggy...
00:52:26
El Platypo
No, no, there's a giant set of gnashes in there as well.
00:52:27
Red D
but ah okay.
00:52:29
Jen
Yeah, no, that character really scary.
00:52:30
El Platypo
Three meters high.
00:52:32
Red D
I- sometimes if I- I was watching quite early during the day and there's a lot of sunlight in here and it was quite dark, I missed the step.
00:52:32
El Platypo
yeah
00:52:38
Red D
that
00:52:39
Jen
Oh yeah, you must have a look at that one, right? That's a scary character. Although I don't know if we can even class it as star player, because they're not a player.
00:52:47
El Platypo
No, it wasn't him.
00:52:47
Jen
They're not, you know.
00:52:48
El Platypo
It's his him or her's dentist.
00:52:51
Jen
Yeah, but that's what I'm saying.
00:52:51
Red D
They're not even on the screen.
00:52:52
Jen
They're not on screen. They're not a player, you know, like in the Shakespearean sense of a player.
00:52:54
El Platypo
Look, there are no defined rules around this. There's no start there from the episode.
00:52:58
Red D
That's all mistake. That's my mistake.
00:53:00
El Platypo
I'm just saying no one from Voyager's crew or Voyager's crew HR comes out smelling of roses from this given their unsanctioned use of untested technology and placing of crew members in hazmat situations.
00:53:15
El Platypo
So I'm giving it to the dentist. Thank you very much. With the doctor a close second for, you know, scalpel technique.
00:53:18
Jen
Okay.
00:53:21
Jen
Oh, and I'm glad you gave the Doctor one. They put me in a bit of a difficult position. I assume someone would pick Janeway.
00:53:25
El Platypo
You were going for the Nessies as well She's a loose cannon
00:53:26
Jen
Yeah, so, and I kind of want to pick her, but I also, and I also want to, i also kind of want to pick Clown because um I thought he did a really good job.
00:53:43
Jen
I thought I really didn't like the character, like really creepy and weird.
00:53:46
Red D
Yeah, he does.
00:53:47
Jen
And, you know, he's a baddie, so obviously you don't like him for that reason. um But that I think is a sign of someone doing quite a good job in that kind of character. um And I don't think it would have been, well, i really liked the episode and I don't think it would have been such a good episode and so engaging from my perspective if the baddie wasn't good.
00:54:07
Jen
So I think he did good.
00:54:07
El Platypo
Yes, I completely agree.
00:54:09
Jen
Okay, I give it to him, but with a sort of bonus mark for Janeway, because, you know, she was pretty good in it.
00:54:16
Red D
And also, did she come up- who came up with the idea to send her hologram in? Hologram? Is that correct? That was genius.
00:54:21
El Platypo
I think that was a genius tactical move, I agree.
00:54:23
Red D
That was genius.
00:54:23
Jen
Yeah, whoever did that gets gold star as well.
00:54:28
Red D
Yes, that was very clever.
00:54:28
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:54:31
Red D
Okay. Let me know when you me to play the jingle.
00:54:34
Jen
Well, yeah, I think think we're there.
00:54:35
El Platypo
jangle, jangle, jangle, gobojangles.
00:54:37
Jen
And I look forward with horror to the next podcast. To Vix.
00:54:43
Red D
to vex, two vex, two vex. to
00:54:44
El Platypo
Does it help or harm the prospect of that that it's probably going to be me who's comparing?
00:54:50
Jen
I'm glad it's you and not me. That's it, yeah.
00:54:53
Red D
I think you're the perfect person for the job.
00:54:54
El Platypo
will you Will you be glad, though? Will you?
00:54:57
Jen
Yes, very much so.
00:54:59
El Platypo
so i can't make a rave, but, you know, who knows?
00:55:01
Red D
They're so big
00:55:03
El Platypo
Who knows?
00:55:05
Red D
When are you going on Friday so I can cancel? I mean, come on.
00:55:08
Jen
Oh, we have first one in early July.
00:55:11
El Platypo
Booyah.
00:55:13
Red D
Oh, I'll probably be around soon.
00:55:15
Jen
Oh, Red can catch it.
00:55:17
Red D
Oh, that was the end of the jingle. Bye! Don't hang up.
00:55:19
Jen
Bye.
00:55:21
Red D
don't hang out