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We watch "The Swarm" (S3 Ep.4)
10 Plays5 days ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "The Swarm”, in which we nearly lose the Doctor, but you wouldn’t guess that from the episode title!
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Theme music by Alain D
Recommended
Transcript
Performance Glitches and Nostalgia
00:00:01
red23
I wish, I wish people could see that actually Jamie was performing.
00:00:06
Jamie
I was trying to convince you guys my screen had just frozen and jiffed me.
00:00:09
red23
Uh, we really should be a YouTube podcast.
00:00:14
Jamie
Could you describe that act of interpretative dance that I gave to signify readiness through interpretative speech?
00:00:22
red23
Kind of reminded me of like Johnny Bravo, but like, like, do you remember that cartoon?
00:00:22
Jamie
Oh,
00:00:28
red23
I don't know why, but somehow
00:00:29
Jamie
I remember Donnie Bravo, but I'm interested to see where you go with that after that.
00:00:32
red23
Did he not sometimes have an arm up? You had two arms up, but then it was as if the animation had...
00:00:36
Jamie
like a versatile upper body chest and chin twerk.
00:00:37
red23
There was a glitch in the Matrix.
00:00:42
red23
Yeah, maybe it was the upper body focus there.
Podcast Jingle Debate
00:00:45
Jamie
However, we...
00:00:46
red23
Is this even the same jingle as last week?
00:00:48
Jen
Is it, is it, it's surely time to fade out, fade out.
00:00:48
red23
I'm sure it sounds different.
00:00:50
Jamie
It's slowed down.
00:00:51
red23
Yeah?
00:00:51
Jamie
It's slowed down.
00:00:52
Jen
i Jingles normally like 10 or 15 seconds.
00:00:54
red23
Guys, the jingle is 1 minute and 50 seconds, so you just have to tell me where to stop it.
00:00:55
Jamie
Dude, we have to let it just go. It's how we introduce and get some atmosphere going. You can't just cut it like that. This is Hamilton now.
00:01:04
red23
I don't know why there's no fade out. Oh, I don't know something happens when I produce it and it fades out.
00:01:07
Jamie
It normally does fade out!
00:01:10
red23
No, no, we always have to stop it because it goes on too long. But anyway.
00:01:12
Jen
Okay, here we go.
00:01:13
Jamie
That's really the minute 15 of authentic Adonage.
00:01:14
Jen
Here we go. AI overview. Jingles typically 10 to 30 seconds.
00:01:20
red23
um Okay, we cut it a bit short there, but...
00:01:23
Jamie
Yeah.
00:01:23
Jen
No, what are you talking about? No, that went 40.
00:01:26
red23
Oh, okay.
00:01:27
Jen
and
00:01:27
Jamie
Disappointing the draw.
00:01:27
red23
Anyway, it's the same jingle every week, so I'm going to have to cut it short every time, guys.
00:01:29
Jamie
It can't be the biggest clubhouse in the blood, but it will be the biggest wrinkle.
00:01:31
red23
I don't know how to magically shrink this jingle.
00:01:35
Jen
Okay, we'll work on the jingle next week. Right.
00:01:38
red23
No, it just fades out.
00:01:38
Jen
So,
00:01:40
red23
You just have to like give this sign.
00:01:40
Jamie
Yeah, after a minute and 15 seconds of authentic, you know, natural baddinnage.
00:01:44
red23
No, that's a bit long. Oh,
00:01:46
Jamie
but We don't like interacting as humans for over, you know, 40 seconds.
00:01:52
Jen
Okay, are we done on the jingle guys? Are we done?
00:01:55
red23
We've done playing the jingle, we've done discussing the jingle.
00:01:58
Jen
Okay.
Star Trek - 'The Swarm' Summary
00:01:59
Jen
Okay, so one minute summary.
00:02:00
Jamie
only I withhold the right to discuss the jingle at a later patch.
00:02:06
Jen
Okay, you you have that right.
00:02:07
red23
You reserve that, right? Yeah.
00:02:09
Jamie
Okay, reserved. Sorry, carry on, chaps.
00:02:12
Jen
I think it's time for one minute summary, Jamie.
00:02:14
Jamie
Oh god, not this again.
00:02:17
Jamie
This one actually is called The Swarm.
00:02:17
red23
Oh, wait, wait.
00:02:17
red23
What episode are we reviewing, Jen? Thank you.
00:02:21
Jamie
Thank you were just checking that I had actually watched the watched the episode.
00:02:26
Jamie
So, we find our intrepid Star Trekian adventurers approaching the territory of an unknown species who board Tom and Balana's shuttle zap them and then vanish off.
00:02:26
red23
Correct.
00:02:41
Jamie
In the process of treating them, the Doctor discovers that he is losing his memory and the episode centres on the Doctor and Kez's search for a cure, looking deep into his past on the Jupiter station, whilst the crew attempt to navigate through hostile alien territory without the support of the Doctor.
00:03:04
Jamie
All of which takes place against the backdrop of hostile, unknowable, swarm-like alien species who are prone to leaving spaceships floating along full of either emptiness, like space Mary Celeste's, or with all their crew dead, the tension rises.
00:03:26
Jen
Beautiful.
00:03:28
red23
Nice.
00:03:30
Jamie
Tell me if I've missed anything though obviously.
00:03:33
Jen
Well it's a summary isn't it? You're supposed to cover everything. It's beautifully summarized.
Visualizing Alien Scale
00:03:39
Jen
Okay, initial reactions. Someone's put scale.
00:03:39
red23
Agreed.
00:03:44
Jamie
Yes. Yes.
00:03:46
Jen
i am intrigued. What does this mean?
00:03:48
red23
It wasn't really. I just put it in now because actually did not have an initial reaction. I refer you back to our conversation offline. I haven't had enough sleep in weeks, so I think it's muted my reactions.
00:03:59
red23
But um as Jamie was mentioning these aliens, these mysterious aliens and the swarm, I realized that I really had no and idea how to scale the aliens to the ships that were swarming because I thought the ships that were swarming were really little, but then the aliens were regular size.
00:04:16
Jamie
they are.
00:04:19
red23
And it reminded me of when I watched Honey, I Shrunk the Kids when I was much younger and the people get shrunk.
00:04:19
Jamie
Hmm.
00:04:26
red23
And I just assumed, you know, when they're out in the garden that they were in aloe because I was like, the scale doesn't make sense, but actually were in lawn. Anyway, that's a very long way of saying, I don't understand scale. I'm not very good at the scaling things.
00:04:39
red23
That's my initial reaction.
00:04:39
Jamie
hi you say it, I feel like they're all probably you know, piloting spaceships about the size of a Volkswagen Polo, given how many of them, you know, clustered all over Voyager.
00:04:51
Jen
Quite possibly.
00:04:51
red23
Yeah, I guess they were like, maybe shuttle size, but that was not my initial impression.
00:04:56
red23
Ah, an initial impression. Well done to me.
00:04:58
Jen
this is We've brought it full circle.
00:04:58
Jamie
An initial impression, the shuttles aren't shuttle size. Yeah.
00:05:03
Jen
Nice.
00:05:03
red23
That's so cool.
Romance and Flirting in Space
00:05:05
Jen
ah my only initial reaction was in the opening scene where the love saga begins between Tom Paris and B'Elanna.
00:05:09
red23
Ah.
00:05:10
Jamie
Hmm.
00:05:15
red23
Yes.
00:05:15
Jen
Sort of.
00:05:15
Jamie
Wait, Tom, Paris and B'Elanna have a love saga? What?
00:05:19
Jen
course they do.
00:05:19
red23
Spoiler alert.
00:05:20
Jamie
That sounds authentic and surprised enough, sorry.
00:05:23
Jen
And I am here for it.
00:05:23
Jamie
Even someone like me here doesn't know.
00:05:26
Jen
And I am here for it.
00:05:27
Jamie
Eh?
00:05:28
red23
Yes, me too. I love the little subtle, very subtle flirting, I guess, or inquiring from Tom's part, like...
00:05:33
Jen
Yeah.
00:05:34
Jamie
I mean, is is it that subtle? Is it really that subtle?
00:05:39
red23
Well, okay, when he said, if you ever want to drink, yeah, but it's not being subtle, but...
00:05:42
Jamie
I mean, I have some hot takes on what went down in that sh shuttle, and i I want to get to them.
00:05:46
red23
Okay.
00:05:50
Jen
but it's the start I feel like it's the start of the storyline you know there's a little bit of flirtation a bit of banter could just be friendly banter but um it progresses later episodes
00:05:55
red23
Yes.
00:05:59
Jamie
Hmm.
00:06:03
red23
Yes, it was exciting too. Yeah. um Agreed, Jenny. But also, maybe, sorry, i have been watching a lot of Australian TV, like
00:06:13
Jamie
This
Australian TV and Star Trek
00:06:14
red23
from the 90s, and I just watched an episode of Water Raths where an officer, a cop, is flirting with another cop.
00:06:15
Jamie
is...
00:06:20
red23
And I guess it was much less subtle than what we saw in the shuttle. Because he was like, huh, do you drink? Do you eat? Do you fool around? And she was like, oh, come on. Please, this is all.
00:06:31
red23
So, not...
00:06:33
Jen
Okay, this is like Star Trek subtle, Star Trek level of banter.
00:06:34
red23
Yeah.
00:06:37
red23
Yes. Yeah.
00:06:38
Jamie
she
00:06:38
Jen
Yeah, let's slightly
00:06:40
red23
I think a reasonable level of banter, would say that's pretty extreme banter from Down Under. Sorry, people listening Down Under.
00:06:46
Jamie
Oh, gee, my hope was some dancer down under.
00:06:48
Jen
Well, do we have any Australian listeners?
00:06:49
red23
Actually, I don't think they've ah don't think they have a feature on the map. We'll have to send a ah podcast in a bottle or something. Yeah.
00:06:57
Jamie
ah Good reference. Good reference.
00:06:59
Jen
I wonder how popular Star Trek is in Australia.
00:07:00
red23
but
00:07:03
Jamie
Oh, I could be imagine it being massive. They had like a massive, massive sort of early 90s sci-fi scene with things like Farscape coming out of there.
00:07:03
red23
That's a good question.
00:07:13
Jen
oh Oh, yeah.
00:07:13
Jamie
also try, but all of these sort of really low-budget but just unbelievably amazing and batshit sci-fi series being made there, so I'd imagine them well into their Star Trek.
00:07:28
Jamie
Also, on Neighbours, wasn't there like a character who was a Star Trek convention-goer as well, who went out with Toadie for a while?
00:07:36
red23
Oh, wow. You have a good memory of neighbors.
00:07:39
Jen
Yeah,
00:07:44
red23
I have a much better memory of the bold and the beautiful and days of our lives. but There was no Star Trek reference from what I call recall.
00:07:51
Jamie
Ah, the days of our lives.
00:07:54
Jen
I'm pretty much just friends standard, you know, remembering all the different friends episodes, as far as my memory goes.
00:08:01
Jamie
what was What was the name of Joey Triviani's character in Days of... Drake Ramore, of course it was.
00:08:06
red23
Drea Pomeroy.
00:08:07
Jamie
Yeah.
00:08:07
red23
Oh yes, that crossover. so
00:08:10
Jamie
That customer.
00:08:11
red23
Crossover, sorry.
00:08:11
Jen
along with his, you know, evil twin.
00:08:14
red23
Oh yes.
00:08:17
red23
Come on, Jenny, let's see.
00:08:18
Jen
can't remember. Something remodeling.
00:08:21
Jamie
Break for more.
00:08:22
Jen
Oh, so I don't remember the friends.
00:08:22
red23
Uh...
00:08:27
Jen
Oh, well, one cool thing. Anyone got one cool thing?
00:08:31
red23
ah Well, I guess we probably knew this already, but I did double check. I was like, does the doctor actually sing in Star Trek? don't know if he's sung yet before. And it is mostly his singing, but sometimes when there's some very skilled opera, he is dubbed by a professional opera singer.
00:08:42
Jamie
Hmm.
00:08:50
Jen
Oh, interesting. I wouldn't have thought that actually. I did think it was all his singing.
00:08:54
red23
I would never have picked up that. Yeah, it always
AI Roles and Real-world Parallels
00:08:56
red23
sounds like him.
00:08:56
Jamie
i I have a cool thing in that in Kes taking over from the doctor when he cannot actually do anything because his software is breaking down, we have the reverse of the human being superseded by AI, which all of us are worrying about.
00:09:14
Jen
and I was very pleased today because Lately, I've just been very impressed with the AI and I had to do something today, which AI could not have done. At least it probably could have, but it would have taken so long to explain it and feed it in the information and that it would definitely not have been worthwhile.
00:09:32
Jen
It was just something that, you know, can only be done if you've been working on the project, if you knew what was what. And this somewhat reassured me that at least we won't be completely, at least my robot completely gotten rid of.
00:09:45
red23
Your job is safe. Nice.
00:09:48
Jen
It is scary though. Okay, so first points, first points. I'm gonna go do backwards. Gonna go with red first.
00:09:55
Jamie
Oh, what?
00:09:57
red23
Oh, gosh.
00:09:59
Jen
Yep.
00:09:59
Jamie
She may be a moderator, but she's out of control.
00:10:01
red23
and This is ah unheard of.
00:10:01
Jamie
Unprecedented.
00:10:02
Jen
I'm wild, wild people.
00:10:05
Jamie
I mean, also, I taught you two well, but, you know, let's see if you can continue counting backwards to the end of the episode.
00:10:11
red23
ah I certainly would not be able to. but Okay, my first point, yes, I did, obviously this is a very strong ah Doctor episode or Robert Picardo, Picardo?
00:10:23
red23
my gosh, I'm so tired. ah You know, I was, I was. Bob Picard. but Oh my gosh, sorry. um Anyway, um but he has some very funny, funny lines, especially, I mean, he was great throughout, but I did love his, you know, after the opening scene where he's practicing opera and he's created this hologram, um not equivalent of copy, but of a famous opera singer from the 22nd century, but he can't work with her.
00:10:29
Jen
you
00:10:36
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:10:47
Jamie
um since
00:10:47
red23
So, well, she won't do what he tells her.
00:10:51
Jamie
system
00:10:51
red23
um
00:10:52
red23
And so when he's complaining about this later to Kiz, I just loved his, like, he had a line which was something like, he had just had a most unpleasant encounter with a mad woman on the holiday.
00:11:00
Jamie
this is for question
00:11:01
red23
I was like, that's rude, but okay. And then later on when he's like still complaining about her and he says she's superior and condescending and he's like, who would act like that? And Kiz is just like,
00:11:13
red23
quietly working beside him. And I point out that many people would say the same upon him.
00:11:14
Jamie
announcement
00:11:18
red23
So great. ah just, you know, just some funny moments early on before he starts degrading.
00:11:24
Jamie
there aren There are a lot of moments like that which are the Doctor's dynamic reverse where he's having to rely on other people and finding out exactly what it's like to be on the receiving end.
00:11:24
Jen
Yeah.
00:11:34
Jamie
Yeah.
00:11:35
red23
Hmm. Yeah. Good point.
00:11:37
Jen
It's a classic Doctor. I feel like it's been a while since we've had a proper Doctor episode, so was really nice. I was a doctor. Go on, Jamie, you're next.
00:11:48
Jamie
Well, i I mean, I'm just going to engage, because I said I would, with the casual fly pass by Tom on B'Elanna when they're on the shuttle at the start of the vessel prior to being boarded
Gender Dynamics in Space Missions
00:12:00
Jamie
by the alien species.
00:12:02
Jamie
Just a casual fly, completely unprofessional fly pass when someone is trapped in a shuttle with you and can't get away. um Like, how about we go sailing on Lake Como together and also...
00:12:15
Jamie
How is a klingon ah ah species like a Klingon living like a monk here? it's Just a casual bit of species and throw it in there just to make sure that Riker isn't the only example of an unreconstructed male in the Star Trek universe.
00:12:25
Jen
Hmm.
00:12:30
Jamie
there's a bit This is a bit covering all bases early, isn't it? How not to be what passes for a good chap.
00:12:40
red23
Well, see, he tried to be a good chap. Well, he's trying to be a better chap. But know when you've been in the shuttle cooped up for five hours, you start to overshare.
00:12:50
Jamie
stop making passes i get it get it this is as well
00:12:51
red23
that's not what I was going to say But, when you're tired, you can, you know, your boundary is tired. don't know. But I did love...
00:13:01
Jen
It's a bit risky isn't ah
00:13:03
red23
yeah I mean, i guess in a world where, like, no just means no, then it's not so... It was risky for him, I guess, to himself out there, but she says no, then he's like, okay.
00:13:14
red23
like
00:13:14
Jen
it? I was thinking it's more risky in that it's just him and a Klingon trapped in a shuttle and he's basically insulted her. I mean it seems a bit dangerous but you know it worked out okay.
00:13:27
red23
i did I did love the like the dialogue because i don't I thought that was very true to real life where he's like, oh, noticed that... He's kind of like, oh, do you rush tro want to go back because you've got a dinner date?
00:13:41
red23
And then he's like, oh, I noticed this person hanging around engineering and playing a kind of cool and inquisitive, I guess, at the beginning and then just by the end, he's like, oh, you want to come to Lake Cova with me?
00:13:52
red23
But you know the the initial part was that little digging, that like, oh, what?
00:13:55
Jamie
and
00:13:57
red23
You know, hinting at some...
00:13:58
Jamie
gos see He does get a little bit of a rise out of B'Elanna when it turns out that he knows that she's been playing this board game with this one.
00:14:04
red23
One time, Jamie. one time.
00:14:06
Jamie
Exactly.
00:14:07
Jen
you
00:14:07
Jamie
As I say, he gets a rise out of her. Not as similar to the way I just did out of you, apparently.
00:14:12
Jamie
But I presume it's for entirely different reasons.
00:14:12
red23
I know.
00:14:16
red23
Same reason.
00:14:19
Jen
Do you know, it's such a romantic suggestion he makes as well, saving on Lake Cuomo, I mean, that is...
00:14:23
red23
Yeah, that's true.
00:14:24
Jamie
Yeah.
00:14:24
red23
You guys have been to Lake Como.
00:14:25
Jamie
It's better than a normal past, you know, subject matter, isn't it?
00:14:30
red23
That is very romantic.
00:14:34
Jen
So what did I put?
00:14:38
Jamie
What did you think?
00:14:38
Jen
Well, I'm going to go backwards with my points as well actually, because I feel like I had a similar one.
00:14:43
Jamie
Hmm.
00:14:44
Jen
So I'm going to carry on that thread. um Not about Balana and Tom, actually, but about the Doctor. It's a Doctor episode.
00:14:51
Jamie
Hmm.
00:14:52
Jen
I'm just really glad to get the Doctor back. and you know
00:14:55
Jamie
Yeah.
00:14:55
Jen
Not that he ever went away, but in the episode, you know doing his thing, doing his comedy. ah And my favourite moment was um that's really just this really minor trivial thing, but there's that whole annoying patient scene with the doctor being the annoying patient while B'Elanna has to be the diagnostician you know and that whole interplay is hilarious and particularly when she's you know sat at the computer doing her thing and he's leaning over her so intrusively close over the shoulder oh it just cracks me up the look on her face
00:15:12
red23
ah
00:15:13
Jamie
yeah
00:15:28
red23
Yes.
00:15:28
Jamie
Again, cool night job.
00:15:31
Jen
this
00:15:32
red23
And also, I mean, when she says him, okay, now I'm gonna like check your optic things to check, you know, if that's a thing. So he loses vision for a bit, but she liked one more, but his reaction is hilarious.
00:15:44
red23
I'm sorry, and his acting is like hilarious. I thought that he was very good.
00:15:50
Jen
is brilliant.
00:15:52
Jen
More Dr. O'Fo snakes. Got red.
00:15:52
red23
I guess it was kind oh, sorry, go ahead.
00:15:56
red23
He was kind of playing up a bit of a hypochondriac, I guess, in that scene, which he always is know has no time for when he's the doctor, as someone already said.
00:16:07
Jen
But he does it so well.
00:16:10
red23
Oh, he was so funny when he lost his vision. I'm sorry.
00:16:14
Jen
I think I might have actually seen that on someone else's notes as well. I don't think you're alone.
00:16:18
red23
ah Yeah, but no, that's on my notes. so I'm just throwing it in now. I don't have to mention it again.
00:16:24
Jen
any Anything other read? I think we're on you now, officially.
00:16:28
red23
oh Oh, okay. Yeah. So, and well, it's just more like a passing thought, but as the doctor's degrading and Tom Paris needs like serious medical help, was like, thank goodness, Kess started training as a doctor's assistant
Kes's Critical Role in Medical Assistance
00:16:42
red23
or healthcare assistant because ah the doctor really degrades pretty quickly.
00:16:42
Jamie
Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. Try to call
00:16:48
red23
And then, I mean, while we're talking about this, it is, I mean, sad, but sometimes funny.
00:16:48
Jamie
it.
00:16:53
red23
Like when she points, you know, she says, okay, This is actually later, not with Tom, but with the freight man that the FEMA bought.
00:17:04
red23
you know the detector thing that they use, I'm like, oh, so, like, pretty tired.
00:17:07
Jamie
i called it
00:17:08
red23
He, like, she's, yeah, she's like, just point, hold this over the patient. And then, i don't know if you noticed, but he kind of just starts scanning her and she has to gently, like, push his head back, like, over the patient.
00:17:14
Jamie
ah no
00:17:17
Jen
Thank you.
00:17:18
red23
And when he can't even tell that, uh, that patient is dead, no longer alive. It's, like, kind of very, very sad.
00:17:25
Jamie
Is he really sick?
00:17:26
red23
But, um,
00:17:26
Jamie
Was a comment that's made quite a lot. Yeah.
00:17:30
Jamie
Hmm.
00:17:30
red23
Yeah, so...
00:17:32
red23
But it's very sad, but in some places, it's also kind of funny because he just does the acting so well and he's so, like, simple that it's, like... don't there's something about that's quite funny, but i was like, thank goodness that Kez started learning because also Tom used to be the other medic on board and now Tom was the person that needed the healthcare.
00:17:51
red23
Sorry, wow, my language is very degraded this week.
00:17:53
Jen
yes
00:17:54
red23
But anyway, all I could think was...
00:17:55
Jamie
medical help brad medical help
00:17:57
red23
Yeah, thank goodness for Kes and that she had the interest in doing this otherwise.
00:18:01
Jamie
yeah i feel like if we were saying that tom needs health care we'd be talking about charging him for it um anyway that's it that's okay um
00:18:02
red23
Tom would have been...
00:18:06
red23
Oh no, sorry, I didn't know.
00:18:06
Jen
sense this
00:18:10
Jamie
and
00:18:10
red23
Yeah,
00:18:10
Jen
Yeah, I mean, it's it's pretty risky, isn't it? If anything goes wrong with the doctor, thank God for Kes.
00:18:15
red23
yeah.
00:18:16
Jen
Otherwise, i mean, what if there's an attack and they've got hundreds of wounded?
00:18:16
red23
Yeah.
00:18:22
Jen
Gosh.
00:18:22
red23
yeah
00:18:23
Jamie
You guys are so wise. is why i should never be entirely reliant on AI.
00:18:28
red23
Another good point. oh
00:18:31
Jamie
What if the Doctor fails while trying to cross hostile swarm land?
00:18:31
Jen
Go on, Jamie.
00:18:36
Jamie
That's why need AI resilience.
00:18:40
Jamie
Okay. So i I found so many of the interactions between the two Doctors hilarious, including this bit where the Doctor on the, is it the Jupiter program?
00:18:50
Jamie
um Jupiter Station Program, who is the Doctor's people himself, who is a hologram of the Doctor who programmed the actual Doctor, is helping B'Elanna and Kez diagnose what's been going wrong. He says, I think I know the problem. All these personality ingrams.
00:19:08
Jamie
Friendship? Personal growth? What's this about relationships with women? And then he sort of looks at him, and then eyes flick down. Do they find you attractive in a way that it's just so clearly telegraphed to suggest that that Doctor is interested as well.
00:19:26
Jamie
But there were just so many little instances of that that were just perfectly played with side-eye and with humour that I just, I really loved. Did you guys enjoy the interactions between degrading Doctor and sort of Jupiter Doctor?
00:19:42
Jamie
LAUGHTER
00:19:45
red23
I'm sure Jenny did. for Jenny.
00:19:47
Jen
I mean, i love I love it all, everything the doctor does. Yeah.
00:19:51
Jamie
Or which one?
00:19:51
Jen
um I think we do more of this in later episodes as well, where he gets to meet his actual creator.
00:19:54
red23
Yeah.
00:19:56
Jamie
Hmm.
00:19:57
Jen
and um I really like those as well.
00:20:01
Jamie
Hmm.
00:20:02
Jen
What about you, Red?
00:20:03
red23
yeah so but Yeah, I don't know if you mentioned it in your summary, but yeah, we have the doctor playing two characters, well, we have two doctors, or one doctor and one diagnostic system, ah both played by Robert Picardo, who I just looked up just to double check the name.
00:20:13
Jamie
Hmm.
00:20:16
red23
um And yeah, I think that's always great, because I think maybe we discussed before, but If you're in a long running series always playing the same character, it probably gets quite
Actors and Varied Roles
00:20:26
red23
boring. So they gave the fact that there were these opportunities for actors to like do these happy storylines that where it made sense for them to do something different must be, it's very cool for the actors and fun to watch for for the audience, I think.
00:20:26
Jamie
Mm. Mm. Mm.
00:20:40
Jen
Yeah, that's a really good point. It must get boring, so it's nice to have that opportunity.
00:20:47
red23
Because some of these people are like classically trained, theater trained. So yeah, let's be found for them.
00:20:55
Jen
Yep.
00:20:56
Jamie
yeah
00:20:57
Jen
So on to me. And ay basically wanted to give a shout out to Kez
00:21:00
Jamie
one
00:21:05
Jen
because you know she's not my favorite character really throughout in general. um And so, you know i feel like this is one of those opportunities to um
00:21:18
Jen
say what I liked about the scenes with her.
00:21:18
Jamie
Shut her up.
00:21:20
Jen
the scene that ah really enjoyed like her argument for the doctor when they're trying to decide whether to um just completely re-initialize him and he'll lose all of his memories from the last two years or whether they wanna try and find a solution that avoids that.
00:21:37
Jen
um I just think she fights so eloquently. It's just, it's very Vulcan. I feel like she's been learning from Tuvok, you know, she comes out with the reasons why and the fact that also they might reinitialise him and the problem will still be there because they haven't actually found out what caused the problem.
00:21:55
Jamie
Yes.
00:21:56
Jen
And it's just all very convincing.
00:21:56
Jamie
Speaking of causing problems, I think we have lost our podcast host.
00:21:59
Jen
Oh, oh no.
00:22:03
Jamie
What's going on? Red, what's going on?
00:22:07
Jen
We
00:22:08
Jamie
we lost We've lost all direction.
00:22:10
Jen
might have to edit this one.
00:22:10
Jamie
But yeah, I do agree with that. Wow, that's life. I do agree with that point, though. um And it's it's clear from this episode, it almost positions Kess as someone who has grown immensely. Although does also showcase the fact that she hasn't been alive very long.
00:22:28
Jamie
When she says, I've known the Doctor almost all my life. And then you think, she's only almost 10 years old.
00:22:35
Jen
Yeah, that's true.
00:22:40
Jamie
Yeah. Shall we move on shall we pause?
00:22:44
Jen
We could, but I think it's red next.
00:22:46
Jamie
We do lack the creative force of the podcast creator.
00:22:49
Jen
Yeah.
00:22:51
Jen
I don't actually know if it still keeps recording with her gone either.
00:22:54
Jamie
and ah It appears to be. There's certainly something up there in the top that's going on 2258-59. Hang on. Checking... you know
00:23:05
Jamie
checking
00:23:08
Jamie
no i idea hang on
00:23:14
Jamie
uh screen black screen of death oh that's hysterical wow where is that hang on have you tried reinitializing it
00:23:16
Jen
Black screen of death. no. Oh
00:23:23
Jen
and my gosh. Unless she just forgot to plug it in.
00:23:43
Jamie
have any of its memory or personal development left
00:23:51
Jen
Oh wow, we're gonna have to the first ever time, have to stop and
00:23:55
Jamie
yeah we might need to well i know but just just for our podcast listeners before they this will doubtless be edited with another one um Red is currently considering reinitialising her laptop, um but she's worried that it might lack its original personality or personal development or memory from all the experiences it's had with her.
00:24:17
Jamie
um ah yes, we might need to truncate. ah Hold on. Are we still on the call? Yes, we are.
00:24:33
Jamie
otherwise Otherwise feel free to keep going. As you play amongst yourselves. That's an awful lot of trust. Now, tell me the one thing you hate most about Rip- No, joking.
00:24:44
Jen
No, I think she edited it from the point she dropped off and then we could restart.
00:24:47
Jamie
Yeah. Ah, there he is then.
00:24:51
Jen
right, and just wait for to restart it.
00:24:51
Jamie
Okay, looks good.
00:24:54
Jamie
Yep, yep, yep. So, how are you?
00:25:03
Jamie
Yeah.
00:26:42
Jen
Red, you're back.
00:26:43
Jamie
Heidi hi! hi
00:26:44
red23
Oh my God, that was, I have no idea what happened, but it has actually happened during work calls, but like my screen just goes black and then I have no way to unblack it, but it does.
00:27:00
red23
Oh, we were recording. Great.
00:27:02
Jamie
Yep, we continue recording.
00:27:02
red23
Sorry. Then we can talk about bit about this later.
00:27:03
Jen
it Yeah, yeah.
00:27:05
red23
Let's carry on. um ah Yeah.
00:27:07
Jamie
Red had a rage blackout.
00:27:10
red23
My computer ragequered for some reason. But normally, normally the screen just goes black, but then I can still hear people and they can still hear me.
00:27:14
Jen
I think we'll...
00:27:18
red23
And then it kind of just fixes itself. But this time stopped hearing you and i was like, going vo it was like, I was de-initializing whatever re unmaterializing.
00:27:27
Jamie
This time, there were no survivors, or at least none with memory.
00:27:28
Jen
um
00:27:30
red23
Yeah, exactly.
00:27:33
Jen
We might have to do some editing of Jamie and I just waffling on for a while it while we waited.
00:27:35
Jamie
Yes, I'm pretty sure you don't want to hear us waffling on.
00:27:38
red23
Okay.
00:27:40
Jen
but but who Might have to forego the unedited nature of the podcast for this one.
00:27:46
red23
Well, yes, I'll have to stitch them together.
00:27:47
Jamie
Roar.
00:27:48
red23
So there will have to be some editing. Okay.
00:27:51
Jen
Okey doke.
00:27:51
red23
Sorry.
00:27:51
Jamie
Hmm.
00:27:52
red23
Go with that.
00:27:52
Jen
No worries. I think we were on to you, Red.
00:27:56
Jamie
Hmm.
00:27:56
red23
Okay. So I guess, um,
00:28:01
red23
I have one, two points. they're kind of related, but I'll stick to one at a time.
00:28:05
Jamie
Hmm.
00:28:05
red23
Um, I think you're a hundred percent right, Jenny, what you're saying about like, cause she was amazing and arguing, arguing for the doctor. ah But I did think overall that was a tough call.
00:28:17
red23
I mean, to decide whether to restart him essentially or try to figure out what was going on because they were risks to both, really.
00:28:24
Jamie
Hmm.
00:28:25
red23
um
00:28:25
Jamie
Yes.
00:28:26
red23
But yeah, I mean, him losing his personality was pretty huge. But if he was sticking, I guess, I don't know. I just thought that was a very, very tough call. But she did make a great argument for at least to buy some time.
00:28:38
Jamie
Hmm. Yeah.
00:28:40
red23
and But it's not a position I would like to be in, I guess.
00:28:45
red23
Even just restart my laptop.
00:28:45
Jen
I guess...
00:28:47
red23
Yes.
00:28:47
Jamie
like Although there were some patients of the Doctor who commented on his bedside manner who would have felt it was no sacrifice.
00:28:47
Jen
okay
00:28:53
Jamie
So, you know, let's just be glad his friends were taking the decisions.
00:28:54
red23
Yes.
00:28:57
Jamie
Always have friends in high places.
00:28:57
Jen
the Thank God we kiss.
00:28:59
red23
yes yeah
00:29:01
Jen
Yeah. Oh, to you, Jamie.
00:29:04
Jamie
Over to me. Thank you very much.
Doctor's Opera Singing Adventures
00:29:07
Jamie
ah So I just wanted to ah enjoy the fact that the Doctor decides as a standard learning activity to pick one of the great sopranos of his era, not to learn from, to duet with when he's just picking up how to opera sing, and then is surprised when the soprano kicks off at him when she's one of the greatest of her ilk, although she does it for what appears to be a pretty much virtuoso performance from him, so that I also find quite amusing.
00:29:40
Jen
Oh
00:29:41
red23
Yeah, never good.
00:29:43
Jen
yeah I gotta say the first time looked annoyed at her and then decided to stop the practice I did wonder if it was more him feeling like he was being out sung.
00:29:44
Jamie
They're all
00:29:57
red23
Yes, I also felt that.
00:29:58
Jen
yeah
00:29:58
Jamie
yes Although i did I did enjoy her calling him an amateur. have yeah i have never sort of in experienced the soprano diva, but ah i I'm sure I'd like to watch other people experiencing it from that that little interaction.
00:30:23
red23
So many divas in the world and I don't really come across them in my line of work though or in my daily life.
00:30:28
Jamie
Give me a job.
00:30:30
red23
ah Okay. Would you be a diva? That'd be great. I'd love to see that.
00:30:34
Jamie
For you already, and to annoy you, I could be.
00:30:38
red23
No, you hit...
00:30:40
Jen
I'm just trying to think if I, I'm not sure I could say I've really run into one. What about you, Jay?
00:30:47
red23
you get
00:30:47
Jen
What about you?
00:30:48
Jamie
Hey? What about me?
00:30:50
Jen
Yeah, have you been bit diva?
00:30:50
Jamie
Ace of them, Ace of them every day in 2012.
00:30:58
Jamie
I wasn't talking about your rate.
00:31:02
Jamie
Or was I? um
00:31:04
red23
That was probably the closest I ever got to divas at rowing.
00:31:07
Jen
Yeah, I was thinking that.
00:31:10
Jamie
Alright, who who, name names, name names.
00:31:12
red23
No, I mean, it's too long ago, but people who believe they deserve something just because of their talent or what they can bring, which I guess is what drives a lot of diva behavior, or what they think their talent is, to be fair regular.
00:31:25
Jamie
Hmm.
00:31:25
red23
It's normally to do with what they thought their talent was, not their actual talent.
00:31:31
Jamie
Oh dear, we were all shit kickers. um Yeah, no, I get that. I'm trying think.
00:31:38
Jen
Well, if anyone ever comes across a diva.
00:31:38
Jamie
um I know lot of tag rugby players who definitely are divas and definitely think that they're like all-stars, which is quite amazing.
00:31:40
Jen
Oh,
00:31:46
Jen
wow.
00:31:46
red23
Where's that at your work?
00:31:48
Jamie
No, tag rugby.
00:31:49
red23
ah
00:31:50
Jamie
That's not luck. I mean, unless you actually work for a tag rugby organisation, in which case it is. I'm not going to mention it by name because they're razor hot on the copyright thing and they'll clearly assume it.
00:32:01
Jamie
But yeah, tag rugby players or referees, they're all divas and all think they're like the main event, which is quite amusing.
00:32:06
red23
It is funny how in these things that mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, can people really build themselves up anyway.
00:32:10
Jamie
Yeah, the ultimate Frisbee society chairman.
00:32:14
Jen
I'm sorry.
00:32:14
Jamie
you Yeah, yeah. The Quidditch team. quitage to and Apart from at Hogwarts there, that is a big thing. If you go to Hogwarts and you're the Quidditch captain, hats off, you're a stallion.
00:32:29
Jamie
If you're the Quidditch captain at Harvard on the other hand, what the hell.
00:32:29
red23
Yeah.
00:32:33
red23
Yeah, if you're playing a sport nationally or, I don't know, you bring a lot of money in or something for your game, then maybe you have, but if you're just playing some local team sport,
00:32:42
Jamie
What if I'm playing sport nationally but bringing in money through my OnlyFans side?
00:32:47
Jen
Oh, taking it to a low pace. Do you know what?
00:32:50
Jamie
Am I a big deal, can I be a diva, or no?
00:32:50
Jen
I don't even...
00:32:52
red23
There's some things in society that I just don't pay attention to, and I would say OnlyFans is one of them, but I know what, I mean, obviously I know what it is, but...
00:32:58
Jamie
this this ah This is a very fast process, Red. No one no one thought you ah were bruising any fans.
00:33:03
red23
No, no, no, no, sorry, I don't...
00:33:05
Jamie
There's a lot of Denagak on here, and I just just like to explore that, Red.
00:33:07
red23
That's not what I meant. That's not what I meant, but realized that there's some things in society that I just don't pay attention to, and I continue pretending that I'm living in the 90s or something, I don't know.
00:33:18
Jen
it was a good time a good time you know though I'm not sure the diva thing I associate it remotely with whether someone is actually good at something or not because well no no not even that but it's more about like why how they behave because of it so like you can get someone who's the absolute best in the world at something but you know they still wouldn't necessarily be a diva or behave like a diva
00:33:20
Jamie
Red, those things are only fans on TikTok.
00:33:29
red23
no No, it's whether they think they're good. Sorry. That's what i clarified my...
00:33:31
Jamie
Yeah.
00:33:37
Jamie
Hmm.
00:33:42
Jamie
Hmm.
00:33:45
red23
No, it's not. It's in fact, the best people are really good and humble, but there's some people that are good and not humble.
00:33:46
Jamie
Yep.
00:33:50
Jamie
Hmm.
00:33:51
red23
There's some people are bad and not humble, but they think they're good.
00:33:53
Jamie
Hmm.
00:33:56
red23
Um, uh,
00:33:58
Jen
yeah it always doesn't matter what the spectrum of talent is it's more about like their behavior
00:34:00
red23
Like the kind, yeah. The behavior that like people in Hollywood are allowed to get away with because they're a big star. If they want to, you could behave terribly and no one will stop you. It's just really your own moral or personality or something that will stop you from doing that because no one else will stop you.
00:34:16
red23
That's, I think. some stories show all too well
00:34:23
Jen
Okay, so I only have one point left. um It was just about Janeway. I wondered what you guys thought of her initial reaction to this new species who at the beginning they knew nothing about, absolutely nothing, except that they didn't like other aliens entering their territory.
00:34:32
red23
Ah, yes, yes.
00:34:44
Jen
um
00:34:44
Jamie
and sometimes murdered entire crews left them floating in space.
00:34:47
Jen
Well, they that they didn't know anything about them, but they know that Cruz disappeared. um or they came back and they were all dead.
00:34:54
Jamie
I'm sure they lived happy and fulfilling lives after disappearing.
00:34:55
Jen
Well I just think it was quite a strong reaction to jump their bullies um as a result of a species protecting its territory when she didn't know any of the circumstances.
00:35:09
Jamie
Yep.
00:35:13
Jen
It seemed very un-chainly. um
00:35:16
Jamie
Hmm.
00:35:17
Jen
I wondered is that a bullying thing to protect your
00:35:17
red23
I think...
00:35:20
Jen
territory if someone's crossing it without permission.
00:35:24
Jen
always say bullying more as a proactive, like violating someone else's territory, you know.
00:35:25
red23
Yeah, I think I missed... Yeah, I think I missed the bit where that she said they were bullying, but I did think it was a bit strange that she was like, okay, to be fair, it was 15 months or four days, like 15 months to go around and i think four days to cross.
00:35:43
red23
So that does make it tough. But when she's like, we need to find a way through because I'm not telling the crew another 15 months.
00:35:48
Jamie
Hmm.
00:35:51
red23
And Tuvok was like, what if I said to you that that was, you know, ah thought he was to say against the prime directive because we know that she's, but he was like that's against our pre policy.
00:35:57
Jen
Thank
00:35:57
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm.
00:36:00
red23
And she was like, we're very far from a star fleet. was like, I'm bit surprised by this exchange because the risks seemed at that point, I didn't know it would only be four days to cross, but the risks seemed pretty high.
00:36:13
red23
And yeah, as you say, but like almost a bit disrespectful. They know that this alien species doesn't want anyone coming through. So they going to force their way through?
00:36:23
Jamie
She's not telling her crew they've got walk 15 months down at Red.
00:36:24
red23
Well,
00:36:27
Jamie
15 damn months.
00:36:28
red23
I mean, the overall journey is schedule time is 70 years. So what difference does the 15 months make?
00:36:31
Jen
yeah
00:36:34
Jamie
A year plus, Red. That's how much difference. A year plus. Sorry, I'm so annoyed.
00:36:37
red23
and And they could lose the whole crew, which seems a bit risky.
00:36:42
Jamie
Yeah. Well, but then, this is the whole thing.
00:36:42
Jen
It does.
00:36:44
Jamie
If they go around every single thing, they're never going get back. It's the principle of the thing.
00:36:48
red23
This is true.
00:36:48
Jamie
If you do it once, then you do it the next time. do it the next time, and suddenly, you know, your ratio journey is actually pushing in the echo quadrant as opposed the alpha quadrant.
00:36:59
red23
This is good point.
00:37:00
Jen
Yeah, I guess I can kind of understand them still saying they're going to go through anyway.
00:37:01
Jamie
Hmm.
00:37:05
Jen
Even though it's yeah, i agree with us a little bit out of oh
00:37:11
Jamie
Hmm.
00:37:11
Jen
Not out of character, out of not quite the policy. um But yeah, I just found that really strange, um like strong word to jump to. That they were bullies. How could you possibly know anything about them other than they're protecting their territory?
00:37:25
Jen
Very strange.
00:37:25
Jamie
hmm
00:37:26
Jen
Anyway, that's me. So, Red, over to you again.
00:37:29
red23
Yeah.
00:37:32
Jen
Anything left?
00:37:32
red23
Okay. Yes, I think I have one, well, one point and
Ethics of Sacrificing Holograms
00:37:37
red23
one question. So I thought, i know this probably wasn't the point of the episode, not something they explored very deeply, but only at the end that I realised that, you know, when they're saving, to save a doctor, they have to sacrifice the diagnostic tool, which is the other doctor.
00:37:53
red23
um And isn't it funny that it was not a okay to sacrifice one hologram at the beginning, but it was okay to sacrifice the second hologram at the end.
00:38:05
red23
And it's funny because of how well you know that person or that hologram, which is...
00:38:08
Jamie
yeah no it's where is it though is it
00:38:13
red23
Yes, I think it is. And that is basically an indictment of the whole society.
00:38:17
Jamie
would like i would like to challenge that because the flip side of that argument is it's not because they've known him long it's because he's lived long and he's actually grown
00:38:17
red23
Really?
00:38:27
red23
Yes, but that other hologram, if they wanted to, they could give them the same opportunity.
00:38:32
Jamie
They could, but he hasn't had that. One has actualised, the other is potential.
00:38:38
red23
I'm not saying was the wrong decision. I'm just saying it was kind of hypocritical.
00:38:41
Jamie
Who is that? Who is that? It was an indictment.
00:38:44
red23
Well, I'm just saying that's a a lot of what is wrong with people. Is that like, you know, you only care about the people you know that you ah like your.
00:38:50
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm.
00:38:52
red23
Yeah.
00:38:52
Jen
It's interesting, yeah. I have to say, I did not see it like that way at all. I saw entirely sort of the way Jamie's describing the the key differences that um the doctor isn't just ah AI anymore.
00:38:56
Jamie
Hmm.
00:39:03
Jen
He's a tool or a machine.
00:39:04
red23
That's kind of my point.
00:39:07
Jamie
Well...
00:39:07
red23
Because they both start the same place, right?
00:39:09
Jen
I thought your point was just that people knew him better.
00:39:10
red23
They both the same.
00:39:13
Jamie
And that was what he was saying.
00:39:13
red23
but No, because they perceive him as it being more than AI because they've spent two years with him. And he has he was on the whole time, so he did develop a growth.
00:39:20
Jen
Oh no, see, I don't think it's a perception thing.
00:39:22
Jamie
Yeah, it's not about the perception, it's about the development of them.
00:39:22
Jen
I think that in in two years, he's he's learned and he's grown and he's had all these...
00:39:27
red23
But you're kind of proving my point because if they had left the other one on for two years, he would be the same.
00:39:32
Jen
But he hasn't been on for two years.
00:39:32
red23
Because... Yes, but that's not his fault.
00:39:36
Jamie
It may not be his fault, but it it does tend to sort of speak to the how do you judge a human thing, because ultimately if we if we have two humans and one does naff all with their time and the other with their time is doing loads and loads of stuff that is positive and growing and helping people.
00:39:41
red23
Yeah.
00:39:51
red23
But what? They had no control of but whether they got to do that or not. That's just kind of my point, right?
00:39:56
Jen
But it doesn't change the situation.
00:39:56
Jamie
But it might be, but at the start of it, it's it's almost, you have to almost think of these things as one is, ah brick, the other is a brick. One brick gets switched on and then as an outcome of the experiences it lives and as an outcome of all of its growth it becomes a sentient, let's call it, agent.
00:40:22
Jamie
The other hasn't actually done that. It has the potential but actually there's moral value to that life lived and that developed sort of personality that hasn't been accumulated Now it's an easy conceit because effectively we're giving the one that has lived the statuses of a living thing due to having lived, but their starting position of both is of things which if they weren't switched on, there would be no tragedy in the same way that there would be no tragedy if a torch wasn't switched on.
00:40:49
red23
That's it.
00:40:53
Jamie
And that's sort of the starting point, equality and the ah difference in a crude moral value that drives that. to me they make that decision not because they perceive him they've known him for two years but because he has been on that journey
00:41:11
Jen
Yeah, I kind of see it as like the biological version is killing a stem cell versus killing a one-year-old. Do you know what mean? like
00:41:19
red23
but That's interesting. I see it more as like, I'm willing to kill you because you're different and I don't know you versus I want to protect people in my own community or like
00:41:27
Jen
Well, do you think that if that doctor, that um diagnostic doctor had been on for two years and at had all these experiences that the first doctor had, but on a different ship and they didn't know him,
00:41:42
Jen
if they knew what he had been through, do you think they would reinitialize him?
00:41:43
red23
them. That's a good question. Yeah.
00:41:48
Jen
I think Jane really wouldn't.
00:41:49
red23
No, yeah, I think you're right. But, ah yeah, I think that is a very question, and I think you're right. But it was just, an and for me, I just, like, it was a passing thought, like, oh, they were so but so hard to save the doctor, then they're like, okay, you're to sacrifice yourself now.
00:41:59
Jen
Hmm.
00:42:05
red23
Just a bit of...
00:42:07
Jen
Yeah.
00:42:08
Jamie
yeah The flip side of that is, though, he doesn't actually sacrifice himself, though, does he?
00:42:09
Jen
It's a,
00:42:10
red23
And the doctor...
00:42:12
Jamie
Because it's his personality that gets taken forward.
00:42:15
red23
Yeah, that's another... That's another element but yeah Oh, I think that was a good discussion.
00:42:21
Jen
Yeah, it is a grey...
00:42:21
Jamie
So stop links and quit seeing Deplum as hating the doctor. Fred.
00:42:26
red23
no, no.
00:42:26
Jamie
but We're trying to save him here.
00:42:26
Jen
ah
00:42:28
red23
I'm glad I brought it up because that was really interesting conversation.
00:42:28
Jen
I think...
00:42:30
Jen
Yeah, I think it is a grey area, like at some point, I think they have the same questions in biological ethics, you know, about when does a person become a person when they're talking about using stem cells and, you know, also when you, you know, have discussions about abortion and
00:42:44
red23
Hmm. Yeah, that's...
00:42:50
Jen
you know, then when that, they first introduced that morning after pill, um you know, where you were, that was that was a really tricky one for a lot of people because, you know, is that, at what point is it is this a beating, you know?
00:42:53
Jamie
I knew we would go there.
00:43:07
Jen
um
00:43:08
red23
Yeah, I mean, there's i mean there's the different the kind of ah comparison you use between like stem cell and a human being, i think it's a good one. I had, but in my mind, that's not how I saw it. I saw it as a comparison of ah kind of someone who's known by the in-group and someone who's not known by the in-group, let's say, let's put it like that.
00:43:29
red23
So that that was just why I thought of it like the way I did.
00:43:32
Jen
Yeah, no, it is and makes sense. um Yeah, it's really, I think it's a it will be, it might be some things that come up a lot more now with AI as well.
00:43:36
Jamie
Multiple lenses.
00:43:44
Jen
Well, not now. No, it's like way,
Future AI Agency and Ethics
00:43:46
Jen
way in the future. But one day it might start coming up like with this artificial intelligence that can learn.
00:43:54
Jamie
Hmm.
00:43:54
Jen
wonder if one day it will
00:43:55
Jamie
some stage or other, there'll have to be decision as to when agency is prescribed.
00:44:01
Jen
I guess we're going into like the matrix now.
00:44:01
red23
Don't stress.
00:44:03
Jen
Like
00:44:03
Jamie
Yeah, and I knew someone would say that.
00:44:06
red23
ah
00:44:07
Jamie
Ah, and that's terrifying too. Thank you all for the nightmare fuel once more.
00:44:13
red23
that's
00:44:14
Jen
Yeah. Interesting. Any who. So Jamie, next one.
00:44:20
Jamie
Right, time for me to save this. No, I don't mean that. Hang on, haven't already been... No. ah In fact, Jenny, it's been ages since we've had one of yours.
00:44:32
Jen
No.
00:44:32
red23
Well, she only wrote down three, remember?
00:44:35
Jamie
don't know.
00:44:35
Jen
Yeah, although interestingly, we haven't we've we've not got to come around yet to me where I have no more to say.
00:44:39
Jamie
Yeah.
00:44:42
Jen
We're still on the number four round.
00:44:42
Jamie
Fair. Right, then I want to break, is it the fourth wall? I want to break the fourth wall of this episode and point to the fact, is anyone else getting the vibe that this, with all of the references to and the vibes of, have you turned it off and on again with the Doctor, did anyone else get the impression this was filmed in the early Windows era?
00:45:07
red23
Yes, I mean, it's oil it's a long-running joke. It's still but still a joke. It's timeless. It's timeless.
00:45:14
Jamie
Yes, yes.
00:45:14
Jen
I mean that's still what you're asked to do right? I mean that's what that's where I always do.
00:45:18
Jamie
I mean, we have to do it for this very podcast.
00:45:19
red23
There's no ticket. Yeah, I have to restart.
00:45:21
Jamie
This very podcast.
00:45:23
red23
There's no ticket that you can submit to IT t that won't say, have you restarted recently and are all the updates installed?
00:45:30
Jen
Yeah yeah what always amazes me though is people who ah don't don't expect that and understand that you have to go through that with them like they can't just rely on your word like you can't say I've done everything I've switched it on off I've switched it off at the plug I've restarted there seems to be so many people in the world which are basically still that feel they can tell the person on the other end of the line I've done all that why are telling me to do that I've done it just cracks me up like the impatience of work of office workers like
00:45:43
Jamie
Yeah.
00:45:47
Jamie
Yeah.
00:45:55
Jamie
Yeah.
00:46:03
red23
Yes.
00:46:05
Jen
Oh, poor IT guys.
00:46:07
red23
Yes, it's thankless.
00:46:12
Jen
So, and now it's at me and now i officially have no more points. This is very sad. So I'm going to open it up to the floor guys. Any last final points before we move on to themes?
00:46:25
Jamie
On red.
00:46:27
red23
just had a question about the ending, really, because I wasn't sure how to interpret it And maybe it's my lack of sleep. But um they perform this graft or this ah ah program update where the diagnostic system gives him um his matrix and then he is reinitialized.
00:46:41
Jamie
Blend the doctors.
00:46:47
red23
But he seems to have no recollection of his previous life. But then he goes into his little office and he starts humming opera.
00:46:56
Jamie
Hmm.
00:46:56
red23
So it to me, it was quite of a little bit open-ended. I wasn't sure how to interpret it In fact, I carried on watching the next episode to see... I didn't watch long enough, but I was like, wait, does the doctor get his memory back or not?
00:47:08
red23
What has happened here?
00:47:09
Jen
yeah
00:47:09
Jamie
Yeah. Dustin, where are your
00:47:10
red23
So.
00:47:12
Jen
yeah I reckon yeah I noticed that too I reckon that was a bit of artistic license you know because I'm thinking about it surely he would as a computer program immediately be either there or not there like it wouldn't just gradually come back over time that's very human um I reckon they chose that for dramatic purposes that's that's my guess anyway
00:47:25
Jamie
Hmm.
00:47:31
red23
Oh.
00:47:34
red23
It was a nice ending, like the opera and the full circle and everything.
00:47:36
Jen
no
00:47:38
red23
But then i was like, wait, wait, what actually happened?
00:47:43
Jen
Plus maybe it's bit of a cliffhanger situation. It made you watch the next, the start of the next one.
00:47:45
red23
Yeah, it did. It did. What did you think, Jamie?
00:47:53
Jamie
a question and a half. i I did react similarly to the way that you both did in thinking that if the doctor's memory is there,
00:48:05
Jamie
he he, she, they would instantly know but it's sort of left open and while not able to land on a decision myself on whether I think his memory is back it's an optimistic note to finish on with doctor humming an aria or a song of some sort of an opera as we finish with a link back to him at his most self-developed which is nice
00:48:23
red23
Yeah.
00:48:33
red23
Yeah. You both raised good points.
00:48:35
Jamie
but also does, well, I mean, there must be something there, I suppose, is the thing, because the other Doctor cannot.
00:48:40
red23
Yes.
00:48:41
Jamie
And he also doesn't have the hairline of the other Doctor, which may be more telling.
00:48:46
Jamie
bunch Well, yeah, and and it is commented on by the original Doctor when he sees, well, not the original Doctor, the Doctor who's losing his memory when he sees his original, he says, I see where I got my hairline from.
00:48:46
red23
He doesn't have a crazy genius, scruffy head.
00:49:01
Jen
Do
00:49:01
Jamie
Although he does have neater hair than the messy genius Doctor.
00:49:05
red23
Yes.
00:49:06
Jen
you know, going to revise what I said about the, um yeah, yeah the the the, I've thought of, and
00:49:07
Jamie
Anyway.
00:49:11
Jamie
Revision? With
00:49:15
Jen
analogy where it would make sense if it gradually came back to him you know how when something goes wrong with your and and yeah outlook your outlook microsoft outlook and then your life outlook your outlook on life and you just want to bury head and sun no the microsoft outlook and you know you have to um
00:49:23
Jamie
your outfit. I have so many problems with
00:49:24
red23
Outlook. Not your personal outlook, your email outlook.
00:49:29
Jamie
that. but many problems we got
00:49:37
Jen
create a whole idea to create a whole new profile start again. And then they set it up and they say, now it might take a little time for everything to come through everything to, you know, and it sometimes it does take a while stuff starts coming through gradually.
00:49:41
red23
Oh,
00:49:46
red23
Oh, yes.
00:49:51
Jen
Maybe it was like that.
00:49:53
red23
That's a really good point, because that ties into what Jamie said, was which was like, who feels like this episode was written in, you know, the height of the emerging burgeoning Microsoft.
00:49:53
Jen
it
00:50:00
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:50:06
red23
Yeah, that's sort a really good point. Good analogy.
00:50:10
Jen
Thanks, Red. and Okay, themes.
00:50:12
red23
No, I'm being serious because I haven't...
00:50:14
Jen
Oh, no, that was a genuine thank you.
00:50:15
Jen
Did it sound sarcastic? Sorry.
00:50:15
red23
Yeah, because i haven't experienced...
00:50:18
Jamie
Thanks, Red.
00:50:18
red23
Well, I wasn't sure because i haven't experienced that in a long of time, but that was like a daily...
00:50:19
Jamie
but
00:50:23
red23
That was a common occurrence for people at the time. ah Why is my TV talking to me? I should be remote control far away.
00:50:31
Jen
They're listening, Red.
00:50:31
red23
Sorry.
00:50:31
Jamie
net.
00:50:32
Jen
The AIs are listening.
00:50:33
Jamie
Scrying it.
00:50:35
red23
Yeah.
00:50:36
Jen
On that note.
00:50:36
red23
yeah Yeah.
00:50:37
Jen
That's really funny though that you thought my thank you was sarcastic. I'm going to have to work on that. Work on the tone.
00:50:42
red23
No, I don't think it's because it's not that I thought was sarcastic.
00:50:43
Jen
it
00:50:45
red23
It's just that like, wait, once did I sound sarcastic. So that's why I was trying to explain myself.
00:50:51
Jen
We just both sound super sarcastic.
00:50:51
red23
Hmm. Hmm.
00:50:53
Jen
We need to go on a course. Okay. Themes. Themes. I only had down memory loss for the doctor. and
00:51:03
red23
oh
00:51:03
Jen
it does It does remind me a little bit the way you the um all the emotions he goes through as he's losing his memory and he's losing his identity because you know the first thing he loses his skills as a doctor which is you know who he is um and you know that he's angry he's upset he's he's he's paranoid and then he feels really vulnerable all these things it just really reminded me of all the stuff you read um in healthcare about looking after someone with dementia or alzheimer's or something like that and i wondered if it was sort of a bit of a take on
00:51:09
Jamie
Um,
00:51:12
Jamie
um, um, um,
00:51:28
red23
Yeah.
00:51:34
Jen
that situation for the loved ones, carers, of someone going through that um from Kessa's point of view. So that's what I thought about in terms of themes.
00:51:42
red23
Yeah.
00:51:45
red23
Oh, my gosh. My laptop's just gone black again.
00:51:47
Jen
Phew!
00:51:48
Jamie
oh no we can't see she's back back baby back
00:51:48
red23
Oh, no, I'm back.
00:51:50
red23
I'm back. That was just...
00:51:52
Jen
you
00:51:52
red23
Why would this screensaver... Oh gosh, but anyway, but yes, I agree. And also, I mean, like the fact that it wasn't like, I know it wasn't like a huge part of the, well, I guess was a huge part storyline, but that there were other things going on, but like, yes, he deteriorated. And then he almost like recovered a little bit because then that scene where she,
00:52:11
red23
he's like, yeah, of course I know who you are, you cares, and then she asks other things, and it's all still gone, and that, like, kind of, I think it was done very well, because I think it did, there were parallels with, black people and like, with dementia, oh my god, let's wrap up, because this laptop is dying.
00:52:26
Jen
Oh, not gonna last much longer.
00:52:26
Jamie
yeah that's fair The only thing that i would I noticed was the effectiveness of naval swarm tactics in a space action.
00:52:26
red23
okay
00:52:40
red23
Yeah, very creepy and sinister, I would say.
00:52:41
Jen
since
00:52:45
Jamie
What, the tactics or the fact that I noticed it or the way I said
00:52:45
Jen
Absolutely.
00:52:45
red23
ah
00:52:48
red23
No, the swarm, the swarm. It's very where that whole swarm is chasing them. I was like, oh!
00:52:55
Jen
Also, Maybe I should have put this in the one cool thing. ah But it was really just to note something I noticed that this whole swarm episode, it basically becomes the main um sort of bad guy in one of the recent movies, doesn't it?
00:53:05
Jamie
The Borg.
00:53:11
Jamie
What is it?
00:53:11
red23
Oh.
00:53:12
Jen
Yeah, I'm just thinking there's one where, um i can't remember which one, not the first one.
00:53:12
Jamie
Oh, wow.
00:53:18
Jen
um
00:53:20
Jen
Not Into Darkness, because that's the Khan, the Wrath Khan.
00:53:24
red23
a Okay,
00:53:25
Jen
So I guess it must be the beyond, Star Trek beyond.
00:53:29
red23
that's cool.
00:53:29
Jen
and don't I'll look out, I'll look out.
00:53:31
red23
Yeah, it's always nice to see.
00:53:31
Jen
Anyway.
00:53:34
Jen
Star Player. Does anyone know theirs yet?
00:53:34
red23
ah state
00:53:36
Jamie
Oh.
00:53:37
Jen
I do.
00:53:38
red23
Yes, I'm sure you do.
00:53:39
Jamie
Very different.
00:53:39
red23
You start.
00:53:40
Jen
I do for for what? Are you sure I do? Normally I don't. I'm, for once, I was quite pleased with i myself.
00:53:45
red23
Let's see, maybe I'm wrong, but go ahead.
00:53:47
Jen
Well, it's because as again, um I'm never normally much of a fan.
00:53:51
red23
Ah, yes.
00:53:52
Jen
So I feel like I want to take this opportunity to give it Kes, because I don't think I will give her many.
00:53:56
red23
Nice.
00:53:57
Jen
And um I did think she was very good at the subject.
00:53:57
Jamie
yeah
00:53:59
Jen
And ah later episodes where she does more, and I actually like her acting less. So I'm going I like this sort of earlier, slightly subtler guess.
00:54:06
Jamie
yeah
00:54:12
red23
She's very caring, her character in the early... I think it's it's nice, the way she comes across. um I'll go... assume someone is going to choose... Well, I'll give it to the diagnostic tool.
00:54:28
red23
What's his name? It's not Zimmerman, it's actually just the tool, right? Because he willingly and happily sacrifices himself while realising it's for a noble cause. He says something like that. Yeah, so...
00:54:39
Jamie
He has that wonderful line, doesn't he? that It's a short existence, but apparently a noble one.
00:54:44
red23
Yes. Nice.
00:54:48
Jen
What about you, Jake? Aww.
00:54:50
Jamie
Oh, ah the opera singer. as She clearly, clearly provides the link back to the things of value that prove to the Doctor that he has a personality and a life and existence worth holding to.
00:55:04
Jamie
And maybe even proves the anchor back to that once he has been melded with his less mature self.
00:55:12
Jen
Okay, I think we should give honourable mention to the Doctor that is is is a good one.
00:55:15
red23
Yes, yes.
00:55:17
Jen
um
00:55:17
Jamie
Don't be ridiculous.
00:55:17
red23
ah like Agreed.
00:55:20
Jen
But he does, you know what, he gets so many.
00:55:20
Jamie
The only reason we're doing this is because he breaks down.
00:55:24
Jen
He does get so many great ones and I'm sure I'm going vote for him many times in the future.
00:55:28
Jamie
yeah
00:55:28
red23
ah Even just thinking about like the scene as they're gonna do the procedure, he's sitting on like a, oh gosh, I can't remember any names of but anything right now, but like a bed in the sick bay.
00:55:38
Jamie
yeah
00:55:39
red23
And he's so different. He's like hunched over his knees towards his chest. you i don't know if you saw him like just sitting in the background waiting for them to like, and he's so vulnerable.
00:55:45
Jamie
make
00:55:47
red23
That's such good acting.
00:55:48
Jen
No.
00:55:50
red23
But yeah.
00:55:50
Jen
Yeah, he's brilliant. Okay guys, I think it's time for the jingle.
00:55:54
Jamie
come here this
00:55:56
red23
Boom. Coming up.
00:55:57
Jen
The 10, between 10 and 30 second jingle.
00:56:00
red23
This one is only 10. This one is short. So we have to wrap it up.
00:56:04
Jen
I'll believe it when I hear it read.
00:56:06
red23
I promise you. So let's see what is happening for our next episode. Does anyone know the next episode? It is...
00:56:13
Jamie
God, no. I think I think about Star Trek when I'm not with you people.
00:56:14
Jen
Drum roll.
00:56:17
red23
Oh, false prophets. It's where there's those little Ferengi gods on the planet, I think.
00:56:22
Jen
Oh, I like that one. That's funny.
00:56:24
red23
Yes, that is funny. That is funny.
00:56:27
Jen
Cool.
00:56:27
red23
Okay, well, don't hang up and I'm going to stop. Bye, everybody.
00:56:32
Jamie
Bye-bye.