Transcript
Red D: so button oh lord which jingle is it i don't know
Jamie: Wait! Sorry. I just had to shout wait three times in order to get it.
Jen: Thank you.
Jamie: We start this episode.
Red D: okay let's start with the wrong jingle but i hope people i was gonna say i hope people listening to this podcast like hearing people talk over each other i believe that's a really ah my favorite part of listening to podcasts but well
Jamie: Needless to say, nobody waited. Pretty much like Ensign Vorik's bonfarting. Wait for him to get home.............
Jamie: I have no idea what you're referring to there, Fred. There's never been talking about anyone ever on planet Earth.
Red D: Bye.
Jamie: And I resent the implication. And if H.R. weren't already overwhelmed with queries, complaints grievances from the events of this episode's witnesses, well, they soon will be from me.
Jamie: They soon will be from me.
Red D: That is fair. And I have to be honest, Jamie, I wasn't thinking of your tendency to talk over people when I said that.
Jamie: You were, or you weren't.
Red D: But I was impressed with how much of the jingle you could speak over. do you want to keep going?
Jamie: I could, but it only works when I'm talking over someone, so I didn't manage to get in. So I'm sort of left with vibing, really. How am I vibing?
Jamie: I'm doing a gangster walker vibe, but clearly isn't coming across.
Red D: Okay, okay. The jingle's fetishing. The jingle's fetishing.
Jamie: Hello, hello.
Red D: No.
Jamie: How are we all my delightful chums?
Red D: All good. Sorry, I'm monitoring the jingle because remember that one time it just started again with, for no good reason, but I don't think, but yeah.
Jamie: You're monitoring the jingle. Excellent.
Jen: It was very long that time.
Jamie: Excellent. Well, thank you and welcome. Today we are discussing season three, episode 16 of Star Trek Voyager.
Jamie: Blood Fever, the most dramatically titled episode I think we have. Blood Fever, of course, referring to the Vulcan state of Pon Favre.
Jamie: Now, I believe traditionally I give the one minute summary, but in order to do so, i feel I sort of need to be queued up for it in much the same way that a scrum half would chuck his nine the ball or her nine the ball in order to get them to boot it over the sticks. So would someone like me to queue up for this particular one minute summary?
Red D: Janie, would you like to do the honors?
Jamie: Well, now you ask me.
Red D: I mean, just cue Jamie up.
Jen: What I doing? Q up?
Jamie: I wasn't expecting this at all.
Jen: What on earth does Q up mean?
Jamie: I wasn't expecting this at all. Sorry, Jim.
Jen: gonna have to explain Q up first before I do it.
Jamie: Oh.
Red D: Okay.
Jen: What what is it?
Red D: Jamie, please do the one minute summary. Go.
Jamie: Well, it just basically means someone saying, can you do something?
Jen: Introduce you.
Jamie: And you're saying, oh, yes, of course, I'd love to. As though you hadn't been approached at all to do it beforehand and this wasn't the thing. It's basically just sticking to the conventions built in
Jen: well, I've learned some new jargon today. Thank you.
Jamie: Well, yeah, or tee me up as well. um Although one is referencing snooker, the other is obviously referencing golf. So it would be remiss of me not to start off with the point that in my view, this is basically Star Trek Voyager does the Jilly Cooper novel Rivals. Yeah.
Jamie: However, moving from the meta to the specific, in this episode, our gallant chums, the crew of the starship Voyager, are presented with an unusual set of bio-socially driven challenges.
Jamie: During an away mission to a planet showing seams of a rare material, which I presume is called gallicite, but frankly, the only thing valuable about it in this context is as a plot driver, Ensign Voronk becomes overcome by the strains of the Vulcan blood fever, the Ponfar, a mental imbalance happening every seven years to every Vulcan, compelling them through an irresistible cocktail of hormones and neurochemical imbalances to evidence an implacable desire to return home and mate.
Red D: you
Jamie: Unfortunately, in an almost unknown example of this phenomena, Ensign Vorak accidentally infects his own desired target of affections, B'Elanna with the Ponfar, except for the fact that she then fills the ponfire towards Tom Paris.
Jamie: Comedic humour then ensues as various mishaps are evidenced during an away mission in which various members of the crew suddenly find themselves unable to prevent themselves feeling an irresistible desire to mate with each other, and each goes about dealing with it in their own way. Sometimes aided and abetted by the Doctor's attempts to turn the holographic suite into a Vulcan-themed pseudo-brothel to help treat this particular affliction. Needless to say, drama and comedy are felt as the various protagonists push their way to a conclusion
Jamie: in which the ponfar is dissipated through a ritual combat in which Vorick attempts to challenge Tom Paris to a duel to the death, Balana steps in to champion herself, wins the fight when Vorak is just too exhausted to throw his last punch and knocks himself out.
Jamie: Cue the ponfire being dissipated and all seeming well, or at least until the crew discover the remnants of a Borg on the planet they just landed.
Red D: Excellent, Jamie.
Jamie: I just sort of thought I'd bring that out, really.
Red D: mean, I think you've just hit a new standard, so are you going to do that every episode?
Jamie: Well,
Jamie: Well, as I say, I'm channeling charles Charles Boyle and Brian Blessed's love child. So, you know, hopefully hopefully I hit something there. How do you guys think? Initial reactions. how do How did we react to that one? What do we think?
Jamie: About the episode, not the one minute summary.
Jen: Oh, well, both excellent. I love this episode. I think it's hilarious. And I love the ballad of Tom Paris.
Jen: Obviously, I realise from a you know modern day perspective, that it's a little bit problematic in places, but I'm just going to ignore that because I love it.
Red D: Yeah. It's a great episode.
Jamie: Mmm.
Red D: It's very entertaining. There's some...
Jamie: Mmm.
Red D: ah don' They do touch on themes and stuff that they don't spend a lot of time dwelling on, I think, and the other ah in other episodes. Like, S-E-X.
Jamie: Mmm.
Red D: um but I know.
Jamie: No, they call it mating, Red.
Red D: But think like the framing and the... the um I guess the... Yeah, the framing it allows them to explore things like ah in a fun...
Jamie: Mmm.
Red D: a fun way, I guess.
Jamie: Mmm. Mmm. Excellent. ne' It feels like we might have a good time discussing this particular one. um it It does bear sort of consideration that the entire plot dynamic on which the entire episode depends is kicked off by On hearing Tom Paris say that he enjoys rock climbing and trying to convince Bellana to go rock climbing with them, Vorik immediately pipes up, I'm even better at rock climbing, and then primly suggests to Bellana that he would like to propose to mate with her. And then from there, that particular dynamic, all else flows. But I just, yeah, I want to talk about how that was done in a bit. But January, let's go to your one first.
Jen: Oh, okay. So let me just have a little look here. and did actually watch this and write my notes last week. So i'm a little bit rusty, please forgive me.
Red D: Oh yes, we have to refresh.
Jen: um I'm just reading and thinking, what on earth was I talking about? I mean, I really enjoyed, I know it's a tiny little trivial insignificant moment. um Just Bananas delivery of what?
Jen: When Lindsay and Boric, you know,
Jamie: social
Jen: We have the indecent proposal from Vincent Boric.
Jamie: sister
Jen: I just think it was hilarious and exactly the level of confusion and WTF that that deserves, given the context out of nowhere.
Jen: I think we should become lovers, basically. um I just thought that was hilarious.
Red D: It was very good. i loved it too.
Jamie: and what It was. And may I sort of, as a way of engaging with it, point out that I, and this is my first point, I'm not so sure that I would have described Vorik's proposal as indecent, in that he's not trying to coerce anyone. And the way in which he delivers it, leaving aside whether it's decent or indecent, just makes me laugh so much in this edition of Star Trek Voyager Does Jilly Kubel's Rivals. He's just so prim. He sort of comes up and, you know, says, I would like to mate with you.
Jamie: My lover has probably decided I'm dead. am good at rock climbing and physiologically I'm tough enough to take what Klingons dish out.
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: He stands there with puffed-out chest looking prim, promptly to get his jaw dislocated, which I very much enjoy. But I sort love how primly and just straight up the proposal is delivered. B'Elanna's response is perfect, but it's just the preposterousness of it is chef's kiss delight at how Vorik acts the scene.
Jamie: um Because it must be very, very difficult to present yourself utterly serious as this sort of prim Vulcan-type person. frankly trying to present himself as a candidate for mating with his superior officer as straight as he did.
Red D: Oh, yeah, she's his superior. Well, I don't forget that, but I didn't really consider that. a
Jamie: in in many ways, in all ways I would say. and But Red, what's what's your sort of first take on this?
Red D: Well, I know you guys were mocking Envorek for his approach, but if we go back to, like I guess just a little bit earlier when he i guess starts, or in between like kind the two moments you mentioned, he starts off pretty well.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: I mean, he says he admires her technical abilities and bravery and her sense of moral duty.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: And i was like, ah, this guy really knows her, respects her. He's being very direct. And I kind of wish that's how dating worked in real life. You could just say, The fakes instead having to hint and touch and flirt and all that kind of stuff.
Jamie: awesome
Red D: um So i was like, oh, this is going very well. um But that's before you realize that he's being, I guess, motivated or driven by a punfire because in my notes, was oh, he started, like, I thought it was quite romantic the way he expressed how he views her and why he admires her.
Red D: But um he kind of like, when he tries to do a mind meld to convince her something, he tried to get his hands on her.
Jamie: Yeah, and physically for us as well, which is the mechanism by which the pond forest transferred. And I'd like, in the interests of saving my future career, I'd like to just point out that at that stage, I do think it crosses into the territory of the people of the present.
Red D: Oh, no, I mean, yes, but you're like, okay, I had to rein in my, like, oh this is the perfect proposal. i be like, okay, it's not so perfect, So, but...
Jamie: just rein in as opposed to you know completely withdraw it's very straight
Red D: answer sir oh but
Jen: I mean he does, i agree, he starts out quite, you know, it's a sensible proposal, it's a bit, yeah, straight, it's not very romantic in that sense, but I can see, you know, that he's he's given a lot of careful consideration.
Jamie: yeah i mean i i'd sort of
Red D: yeah
Jamie: queue you up or tee you up for your second point there, Jenny, because I think it feels sort of relevant to the discomfort we start to feel um with how that proposal ends, even if it starts off relatively strongly.
Jen: Yeah I mean obviously there is a lot of bits that haven't aged so well. I don't want to dwell on them too much because you know it was written in the time it was written and I do love this episode but just there was a lot that made me feel a bit queasy um like the whole Doctor creating the hologram
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm. Yeah.
Jen: and to to purge his ponfar. um Maybe, yeah, gag a little bit. Also, she looks the hologram. She sort of, during that scene, stood there with this really like doll-like expression on her face, and she just doesn't move, and she doesn't say anything.
Jen: um ah so it gives even more of these sort of overtones of, um you know, like those ah blow-up dolls that people give each other for a for like their bachelor parties and the things it just made me feel a bit cool hmm
Red D: Oh, Jamie, we've lost you. You're talking, but we can't hear you.
Jamie: No, I was going to say that's a really interesting comparison. because Do you remember that movie, the David Mitchell novel we went to called Cloud Atlas, where there were those folks who were basically, you know, they had like a series of clones just to sort of be the shop attendants in like this massive pseudo consumer empire. There was an element of it there.
Jamie: Again, you've teed me up nicely for my part because I had a lot that I wanted to talk about how the Doctor behaves in this particular one. Treating Vorit like a hamster, converting holodecks into a brothel suite.
Jen: Thank you.
Jamie: I put for Klingons, but actually what I meant was for Vulcans. The moment where the skipper thinks he's unhealthily obsessed with mating habits as he gets carried away with a desire to catalogue.
Jamie: all the mating habits that he can possibly lay down his hands on the day out.
Red D: His hands on?
Jamie: Yeah, quite. I think that we we need to talk about how HR manages... Yeah, it is HR because it's hologram relations as opposed to human relations manage the doctor.
Jamie: Because much as we love him and much as I'm sure it's coming from a good place of just total lack of acknowledgement of the human... ah well, understanding the human slash sentient perspective of those on the receiving end, there's a lot that you're a bit like, you you're sort of missing something here. um So i I too would like to talk about the Doctor. But I don't know how you feel about the things that I pick up on him from.
Red D: I think you guys are more aligned. I think, I mean, the doctor with his comparative mating studies that he wanted to pursue, maybe he was getting a bit too overeager bring back his interest, but
Jamie: Hmm. Hey, Captain Janeway thinks so. She gave him a stern look about that.
Red D: she did seem to be shutting down that line of inquiry. But, but um, Yeah, I think, you know, I don't like to think of people, my sister's always like, oh, that's all that people use a holiday for is to satisfy their sexual desire when they're trapped on this ship for seven or whatever.
Jamie: Well, it's a bit...
Red D: And I'm like, what? No, everyone is behaving themselves perfectly. But I feel like in these circumstances, that would be a good ah good time to use it in this way because I don't really see an alternative.
Red D: um
Jamie: Well, I think...
Red D: Or they tried a few alternatives and they didn't work.
Jamie: Yeah. um I think once more we need to look for guidance to the...
Red D: I mean, Tom was going to sacrifice himself, but he's a real human being.
Jamie: Geoasset Maintenance...
Red D: so
Jamie: Yeah. The Geoasset Maintenance Technicians in the Business Quarantine Centre.
Red D: Sorry, Jamie.
Red D: Oh, not again. How do you still remember that phrase?
Jamie: is is there not Is there not a parallel between Ensign Kim being sort of warned off with an inch of his life for falling for what appeared to be a hologram in spite of being a geomaintenance asset technician of the Delta Quadrant?
Jamie: Is there not a parallel between that and the Doctor trying to pimp another hologram who has zero input into the matter as a way of the ah good Ensign purging his bonfire? Is there not a parallel in the way that... Or a hypocrisy in the difference by which the potential relationship with a hologram is treated in both episodes?
Red D: I can't remember the other episodes. i can't
Jamie: Do you not? So and Ensign Kim basically falls for the hologram, who is basically...
Red D: I remember vaguely.
Red D: Oh, yes, sorry, sorry. Yes, but she's being in person. She's impersonating.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: A real person is impersonating a hologram. Wow, that is crazy.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: um Is that right?
Jamie: Yes, yes, that's correct.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: That that is an accurate recollection. we We don't think that there's you know an imbalance in how these two victimless crimes are treated.
Red D: What's the parallel? Because one was a real person, one is a hologram.
Jamie: Yeah, but at the time that Tuvok was being all judgy about it all, he thought it was a hologram as well, and that he was trying to help Ensign Kim with a hologram infatuation. Albeit Tom Paris was the voice of worldly reasons saying, we've all fallen for a hologram.
Jen: I think the difference though is that this is a disease that he could die of and needs a treatment and they're trying to find ways to treat it. That'd be my take on it anyway.
Jamie: Noted. um
Red D: I mean, it's very functional, but you could make the argument when they do battle drills and holograms die or they do...
Jamie: yep hmm
Red D: Yeah, I think it's...
Jen: Also it's a bit like the end... situation where Tom's not gonna have sex with B'Elanna because you know her judgment's impaired but then he has if he doesn't in the end she's gonna die so obviously at that point he gives in.
Red D: Yeah.
Red D: I think that's why I think the framing is kind of clever because it kind of removes some of the things that would make you think, oh, this is a bit dodgy.
Jamie: Would you say it's the positioning that's different then?
Red D: Shut up. I used one jargon word and now I'm going pay for for the rest of my life and I'll never get a new job because I'll be too afraid to use jargon.
Jen: Um,
Jamie: Look, good it's just about how you frame it.
Red D: Okay.
Jamie: um But anyway, looking to move on from our giving you affectionate shit about one piece of jargoning this lifetime.
Jen: um
Jamie: and I think that makes it your bit red.
Red D: Okay, let's see what I, um, oh yes, I feel, ah you mentioned it a few times, and I did actually have a note on it, but I feel a bit bad about the term neurochemical imbalance, because I guess their neurochemicals are perfectly balanced, what they're supposed to be doing,
Red D: like They just are and not in the right context to express that. And I too recently had a little bit of a neurochemical imbalance. So I felt a bit bad for Vincent Broic and Bollanda.
Jamie: I feel... should Should I ask the question or no?
Jen: I
Jamie: Is that not the discussion?
Red D: It's very hard to explain, but I saw an attractive butt and it moved towards me and I panicked.
Jamie: Okay.
Red D: So I think I had some kind of neurochemical imbalance at the time.
Jamie: Oh, I don't...
Jen: thought you meant like you actually had been to the doctor and been tested and one of your hormones was too high like you you had to like parathyroidism or something
Jamie: Was someone... No!
Red D: No!
Jamie: So you just... I'd also like to examine this. So was someone backing towards you in the first position?
Red D: I was in a dance class, and but you know, butts don't normally back towards you. The butt was kind of like attractive and Sunny was getting like ah really close. And I was ah! And I felt some kind of imbalance happen.
Jamie: Oh, no, no.
Jen: would you have also been terrified of the butt if it had been an ugly you know that's clearly the that's the key question to ask yourself
Jamie: And how is the lawsuit?
Red D: Probably not. That's a good question, Jenny.
Jamie: Really? Interesting.
Red D: It was far away and I was like, oh, that butt is quite nice. And then suddenly was like close and I was
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: i bet there's a lot of attractive butts in dance class
Jamie: It's like, if it's attractive, if you're scared of it moves towards you. If it's not attractive, you're sort of panicking if it stands still just wherever it is in the network.
Red D: like, oh!
Jamie: Terrific.
Red D: I guess that I'm not gonna register it.
Jamie: Stop objectifying people's backsides, people.
Red D: I don't normally go around registering. It's hard to explain.
Jamie: Come on, we're no better than the people who wrote this episode.
Red D: it There's a lot more context that I'm not really sharing, but that's basically the but butt of the story.
Jen: yeah
Jamie: i wa i think for the sake of your career, we should share the context.
Jen: I think it's fairly self-explanatory. I mean, you're in a dance class, people are in tight lycra.
Red D: Yeah, I think it's self-explanatory.
Jamie: It's true.
Jen: They're probably quite fit, attractive people because they're going to dance classes.
Jamie: Red was perving. I agree. Red was perving.
Jen: I mean.
Jamie: Yep, I agree with you, Jenny.
Red D: Thank you, Jenny.
Jamie: Red was perving. I wouldn't have said that about our friend, but you said it so I can agree with it. Jenny, over it to you.
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: Your walk point. Pick us on the straight scenario.
Jen: Oh, wow. Okay. So, mine. Actually, you know what? I did have ah another thought. based on after you guys were discussing the whole ballad of tom um during that parallel with when he's having sex with he's gonna have sex with her to you know save her life and was like you know what though it does remind me a little bit of that episode that we watched a while back where i said i feel like was this one of these episodes that was written by all men?
Jen: Like again, because you know, in what scenario? It's basically like a teenage boy's dream, wet dream isn't it really? Like, you know, oh you must have sex with this beautiful woman or she'll die.
Jen: like um It's got that kind of like overtone to it, which I find a bit creepy.
Jamie: Not for those of us with performance anxiety.
Jen: So anyway, that, that but I'm going to just, ah, okay.
Red D: It was written by Lisa Klink.
Jen: So this one,
Jamie: Yeah, they sound like a real teenage boy.
Jen: I can't blame it on that then. okay Do you know, I did check that last one though and it was co-produced by two men.
Red D: So.
Jen: So then i then I thought, oh gosh, I hope that doesn't stick in my mind for any future episodes like this, which it clearly has done.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: um
Jamie: and
Red D: Thank you.
Jen: But yeah, interesting.
Jamie: So, hmm.
Jen: It was written by Nadie.
Jamie: So, I... I suppose moving on, I want to move from the slightly more deep to the just hilarious, um one of my favourite lines, just the throwaway that during the time the doctor is talking about his comparative study of mating practice and goes, I might start with Klingons.
Jamie: There's a copious amount of information the cultural database about their mating practices. and i just like love the flounce of their mating practices in there that just there's so much that is just peak doctor in that particular statement that I love um so yeah I was just wondering if anyone else picked up on his delivery of that line as for this sense I know I know but also just a little bit too judgmental as at the same time it really tickles me
Red D: just a bit too enthusiastic as any yeah
Jamie: um probably unfortunate phrasing on my part but yeah
Red D: i did i mean i might put just throw it in here but i did he referenced the victorians right when he's speaking to um and some very exactly Oh, Vulcans have such Victorian attitudes towards sex.
Jamie: I knew yeah
Red D: And was like, go Victoria and still being quote, like referenced in 2400 or whatever.
Jamie: i knew
Jamie: Exactly. and you've inadvertently picked up on my my next point, which is that I love the fact the most logical race in the universe thinks that the logical way to be acting about sex is Victorian.
Red D: it's
Jamie: just find that hysterical. With all the secrecy around their mating urges and such like in the wake of their... deep and fanatical devotion to a state of pure logic um they are driven to victorianism in order to avoid the contradiction that the ponfar puts on them which really just sounds like a way of saying after all this time being logical they get a bit pent up every seven years and need to let it out a bit but maybe i'm being a little bit too brian blessed here um red are you yes wait you have a
Red D: Yeah.
Red D: Yeah. ah Well, I mean, kind of just following on ah from that, I guess. But what I was ah more like a question to you guys, because Tuvok explains to someone that a pan of all happens every seven years, and then they have to go home and take a mate.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Does that mean they get a new mate every seven years? But Tuvok's been married for like 50 years or something. so
Jamie: Presumably you can mate with your own wife, I'm told.
Red D: Jenny, do you know how it works?
Red D: Do they only make once every every seven years? Wait, now I have a lot more questions.
Jamie: Well, I think it's just that every seven years they get this compulsion to go home and mate. Presumably it can be with the same person. And presumably other times they mate, but they just don't feel an irresistible compulsion to do so.
Jamie: It's just, you know,
Red D: ah So it's just like a thing that happens every seven years, but their normal life can kind of carry on in the meantime.
Jamie: yeah. Yeah.
Red D: and
Jamie: Presumably.
Jen: Presumably they mate she they may outside porn for when there is a logical reason, i.e.
Jamie: I mean, I'm not a specialist, unlike the doctor.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: they want to have another Vulcan child.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: you
Red D: Yeah, yeah.
Jamie: Or because sex might...
Jen: That's how I'm going to take anyway.
Jamie: Is it a logical reason to make that sex is fun?
Red D: To a Vulcan? I'm not sure.
Jen: I can't imagine Tuvok being on board that now.
Red D: No.
Jen: Does he see any logic and fun?
Jamie: I don't know. i mean, you could say that the pursuit of physical pleasure... Anyway, let's let's not get into what is logical about the pursuit of sensation and all of these sorts of things. It'll only take us into dark places. um Red, I'm actually really interested... um in actually your very next point that is just, after the Victorian seems absolutely destined to be a fishing rod baited for someone like me to jump up and down. But I'd be interested in your logic on your next one.
Red D: Well, for a minute there, I thought something that happened in the episode was actually Neelix's fault. Because...
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Red D: is
Jamie: I'd like to start with challenging. What do you mean was actually?
Red D: Well, you're always blaming him for all kinds of things that he's only really tangentially responsible for.
Jamie: He is the entire narrative driver of at least 10 episodes through fucking up.
Red D: But he didn't... Well, but before you quite realise how off the rails B'Elanna has gone, she really like yells at him because there's a climbing accident and they both fall to the ground, I guess.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: And she's really laying into him. And I was like, oh, he really did something wrong this time. I don't think he did either.
Jamie: but But he didn't, though, because he he put his...
Red D: No.
Jamie: It's not his fault that the clamp came out. It just came out, isn't it?
Red D: No, exactly. It wasn't his fault. But, you know as I was watching this, I was like, oh.
Jamie: You've baited your trap precisely to get me asked. I wanted to find out that there's something else I could blame him for.
Red D: Yes, exactly.
Jamie: and You gave me a false trail, and I salute you for it.
Red D: Exactly.
Red D: Exactly.
Jamie: Jenny, I think... i think leaving me disappointed as red has that makes it your turn that
Jen: Oh, well, I'm going to um
Jamie: was my charles boilism for the episode for reference
Jen: I think after my two critical points in a row of an episode I love, I have to move on to something great mom to which is that I really love Balana's performance in this.
Jamie: hmm
Jen: I think she's fantastic. I love the whole initial stages where she's slightly worked up but not enough to give the crewmates a sign that anything is seriously wrong i think that is actually believable like like oh she's behaving a bit strange but nothing that you know you would necessarily usually when someone's behaving a bit strange in star trek and people think oh well it's probably nothing you think there is no way that they would in real life consider that that was nothing because it's very weird whereas this is an actual genuinely just a little bit odd
Jamie: Um, um,
Red D: Hmm.
Jamie: um, um,
Jamie: of
Jen: um And then there's the whole like gradual decline and then the wild behaviour and fighting to rein in her passions. And I just think the whole thing was quite well portrayed. well done, Balana, or Roxanne, I think that's her real name.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Yes, I 100% agree. And if I was when guess the Tuvok and Chakotay and Tom are like telling her, you've got the pan far.
Red D: um That's why you behave, you know, she's like, and she immediately, there's something about her portrayal there that was very teenage girl for me, like the hair movement, the hand movement, the retreating into the thing, because I think
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: you could make the argument that like this Ponfa is a kind of a human comparison would be puberty, obviously. Right. So um there's like, not saying she acts like a teenage girl the whole time, but just in that little moment, she seemed vulnerable.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Jamie: Which channel is it?
Red D: Right. Because she's like, it's a bit like your parents telling you down and telling you, this is why you acting like a crazy bitch.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: You know, you're like, ah, get away from me everyone. But, um, so yeah.
Jamie: I agree. Actually, think Vorik also does a really good job of communicating something similar, because one of the things about his performance that I loved was when, even though he's in the grip of Ponfa, when he's not being challenged, he manages to give this facade of calm.
Red D: Uh,
Jamie: But the moment he's challenged on anything, he does a really good job of portraying someone who is struggling with the fact that where something would be a minor sort of blip to their mental balance, it actually is massively affecting and there's a titanic struggle. and It's a bit like watching tectonic plates grind in real time as he tries to maintain self-control and his frustration with himself as he tries to meditate through the Pon Far or as he you know tries to deal with his acute embarrassment of the fact that everyone knows about it um and the Doctor is being you know all sorts of smug and treating him like a lab rat about it and e there's something about his portrayal that shows like how much
Jamie: a really implacable sense of self-control is being torn and strained and everything like that, and i but also that he makes it interaction specific, so it's interactions where he's challenged as opposed to just you know where he's able to get by with typical day-to-day.
Jamie: Yeah, I really enjoyed that. To add to the quality performance that B'Elanna gave in moments of both vulnerability, but also of energy.
Red D: Yes, I also did love his performance when he lost it, even from the beginning when he's like, I will not go for help or whatever he's, but the way his voice changes and everything was, it was really good.
Jamie: yeah i That's amazing.
Jen: That's really interesting because like um I found it yeah I found him really grating like I just I i think B'Elanna did such a great job and by comparison I think that he struggles by comparison for me found it like you know when you could you're really conscious of someone acting and like when B'Elanna's acting I just I don't even think you know you think she's B'Elanna you know and when
Red D: Didn't like it.
Jen: Warwick was acting, it really felt like he was acting Warwick, you know, and it was, it made me very, I was very conscious of it the whole time, which I think is probably not a good sign, but it's interesting, clearly different, different viewing perspectives.
Jamie: But I think, yeah, yeah with
Red D: I mean, yeah. let's go Go ahead, Jeannie.
Jamie: it's wonderful that we can have this spectra of reactions to the same performance, and I think it sort of shows that the cast... and the ways in which various characters are acted appeal to a wide, broad range of people.
Jamie: Because Vorak is very, very clearly the comedic figure as well as the nut job of this particular one. And that is a difficult one to act likeably.
Jamie: There's a degree to which you can say, does he ham it up and is he therefore the figure of fun? So I what I'm interested
Jen: Well, maybe, yeah. And it might it might have been a choice, acting choice, which, yeah, people interpret differently.
Jamie: thank you
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: Although, I don't actually know what the term ham it up means.
Red D: Bye.
Jamie: So could someone tell me? Because my sister always used to use it about everyone else who's acting.
Jen: Oh, I have the perfect episode for you to watch to understand it because I watched the episode and said, oh oh, that's it.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: That's what it is. Okay, right now I really understand it.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: So you know how i love Frasier, there is an episode of Frasier where him and Niles um meet ah someone they idolised as an actor when they were children and his career is failing.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Oh, yeah.
Jen: And funnily enough, they meet him at a science fiction convention um and they're disturbed to find that he has to be at a science fiction convention when he used to do Shakespeare, you know.
Jamie: Amazing. Oh.
Jamie: Mm-hmm.
Jen: So they do.
Jamie: Mm-hmm.
Red D: This is ringing a bell.
Jen: yeah so they decide to set up a new play for him and then re-watching him as ah adults they realize that their perception has now changed because they were teenagers back then and other adults and that they had no idea but in fact he's in fact a terrible actor because he hammers it up and he overdoes it um ah so you know the um hilar hilarity ensues bobbar but the point is it is a really good episode of like um
Jamie: No.
Jen: the the the actual actor who's who's having it up is doing a great job of having it up.
Red D: ah
Jen: like it's a And um I realised that I'm like, ah, that's what they mean by it's like overacting, I guess, and overdoing it.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: But that was the episode to
Red D: I have been watching some Frasier clips on YouTube. and know Back to Ensen Vorak, in a bit of defense and not to give not to give away my star player.
Jamie: in defense of the good answer
Red D: but
Jen: Oh, wow.
Red D: Um, he's also a younger, i think they say about his acting or portrayal that was very believable. Like, he's, oh, he's not. He's just quite a young guy not getting what he wants and struggling with something, um,
Jamie: um you
Jamie: yeah can i Can I sort of ask one of the tropes? like I'm not going to pick holes in the concept of the episode because it it makes for a cool episode, but I'd love an exploration of what we imagine other Vulcans do when they're away for seven years from home.
Jamie: Because there's
Red D: I think this is supposed to be quite an unusual situation because you this was an unplanned seven years away from home, right? So...
Jamie: Yeah, but I mean, is home presumed to be the Vulcan homeworld or is home presumed to be where they make a home in the wider galaxy? Because if it's the Vulcan homeworld, you can imagine Vulcans colonising other planets and then like ah so every seven years, this mass homeward migration um to basically partake in the Pan Fah, which now makes me think of Vulcan Woodstock. But yeah.
Red D: um this When you start thinking this through, lot of new questions do come up, that's for sure.
Jamie: Well, that's the thing. And these are the ones that I wanted to sort of throw to you guys. What questions does that inspire anew about how the Vulcans as a race manage this? Hmm.
Red D: Well, like I said, I was a bit confused for a bit because was like, do get a new spouse every seven years? But you guys corrected me.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: um No, I mean, you're...
Jen: don't know, it's just what I, I don't know that it's correct. It's just ah a passing thought.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: But I thought the same as Red, basically, that um they've never really been in a situation like every seven years, they return to the home world. There is no other option, like none of them ever go far enough away to be seven years away.
Jen: don't know.
Red D: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess in that case, you would have to plan ahead if you're going to it and have some kind of medical intervention or holographic intervention that's proven to work, I guess.
Jamie: it's just
Red D: Unlike this holographic intervention, which I don't think did work.
Jamie: No, no.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Jamie: In spite of the Doctor's smugness and his perception that I've cracked a new era of medicine and The next time Star Trek needs to deal with the situation, they won't hear about this treatment from me. And i absolutely love that roadmap. But Red, I think it's your turn. so Once more, direct us back to The Cogent.
Red D: Okay, so a line that i thought was pretty direct in this episode was when, I guess, B'Elanna and Thomas are fighting over the gun in the caves that have been disturbed by earthquakes she wants to blow up all the rocks and he's like i don't think that's such a good idea because it could be dangerous uh and she's fighting and then he literally says um what does he say where is it this isn't about the gun it's about sex i was like that's quite a direct line i mean such a direct line for star trek so kind of took me off guard but he was i guess
Jamie: hmm
Red D: by that point, there's no point in sugarcoating it. is But just stood up.
Jamie: no i can imagine i can imagine a lot of debate in the star trek writers room about the use of the word sex though given how rarely it's mentioned
Jen: yeah
Red D: Yeah, it did stand out for its kind of, let's say rarity.
Jamie: I agree with you. And it's, I mean, there's an element ah of slapstick to it of this isn't about my gun, this is about sex, um which just,
Red D: Oh, I didn't even pick that up. ah
Jamie: um
Red D: Good point.
Jamie: which is is just very slapsticky. But yeah, I do like that line. Hmm. Hmm.
Jen: Yeah, you're right. it well I agree. It was very direct and seemed kind of out place soundtrack, but I liked it.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: It was straight to the point.
Red D: Yes, I appreciate the directness for sure.
Jamie: and there's yeah And there's lots of Tom actually diffusing situations by being a bit direct about what's happening, so telling B'Elanna about the Ponfar,
Jamie: tell you know being direct about what principles he will and won't violate. um in the hololift at the end, being open and direct about the fact that you know they both clearly have a feeling for each other, and actually he thinks that she's a bit scared of how he'll react her not to her Klingon side, and being direct and saying, I wasn't that scared of it. So i really like that about the the character and how he is written here. But it's not my go, so Jenny, to you, my friend.
Jen: Oh, well, again, I have very little trivial silly thing, but um that's surely
Red D: was it is it I'm sure it's less trivial than the one line I just mentioned. Oh, great. Oh my God.
Jen: No, it's like perfect and perfectly positioned to go, I'm going to say positioned, to come to come straight after you, Greg, because it's a similarly one line.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: great
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: ah You know, I just love love it. I don't really know why. But also, I'm curious to see your reaction to it, because I'm not sure my reaction is is the normal reaction. But basically, i can't remember what the line is exactly, but it's the moment when Tuvok tells Tom that he has that he should have sex with Rolana or she'll die.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: even as you're saying those lines
Jen: And it was so funny. I just cannot stop laughing.
Jamie: Thank you.
Jen: I was like, that is hilarious the way Tim Ross delivers it. And I don't think it's meant to be funny, but it really is to me. So quote what did you guys think?
Red D: i want to go back and re-watch that because even though i watched this episode twice somehow i still messed up when i'm making notes
Jamie: this
Red D: um But even as you were saying out loud, when Tupac was telling Tom he has sex with Polona, he's like, wait, what? That's insane. You know anything about these characters, you'd like, yes, it's the foxes.
Jamie: Can someone hear something in the background? Sorry.
Jen: Yes.
Red D: Sorry.
Jen: Oh wow. Noisy foxes.
Jamie: Oh, God.
Red D: It's the baby foxes.
Jen: The foxes are having sex too. Wow.
Red D: yeah
Jamie: Everyone's at it.
Red D: I think these are the babies fighting.
Jamie: We've got to turn the camera off.
Red D: The siblings fighting.
Jamie: Oh, is it sibling?
Red D: Look.
Jamie: Sorry, this isn't like what happened. So one night, um Jenny and I just heard this unnatural, god-awful row outside the flat, four of us hours on end, and it turned out to be a mass fox orgy.
Red D: Oh.
Red D: It's funny, the noise, well, it can be very annoying, but when they're just little pups, sort of, don't know what baby foxes are called, then it's like, okay, that's cute. But when it's like the mating sound, you're oh my God, get a leave the neighborhood, whatever. A
Jen: Is the mating sound like the one that sounds a bit like a baby crying?
Red D: oh
Red D: ah baby crying because being murdered, yes, I mean.
Jamie: Yeah, yeah.
Jen: Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, that's the, yeah. I remember from my London days.
Jamie: and ah We've had moments where there's been like a haunting sort of fox cry and all the cats who've looked up and then rushed in on masks, which I found quite amusing.
Jen: I'm not sure I've heard it in Surrey particularly, but I've sifted it, have you seen them, sorry?
Red D: Oh.
Jamie: Okay.
Jen: We saw an Arctic fox.
Red D: This...
Jamie: Okay.
Red D: Oh. This garden downstairs from...
Jen: that that was it really we were holdair recently we saw an arctic fox that was very cool if anyway
Red D: Oh, they're very cute. Oh, you saw an Arctic box. Amazing. No, I have to make do with London foxes, but the garden below me has been a fox horn for a long time and it be completely overgrown and so they just made their home there.
Red D: ah Someone new moved in and they've beautiful garden now, but yesterday I looked out the window and a little fox was curled up on itself, sleeping under one of the like shrubs of the trees in the garden below, looking very happy.
Jen: oh
Red D: i was like, they are.
Jamie: aver fox was so cute
Red D: think they can be a pain, but they are cute. ah Sorry, that was my Fox story at the end.
Jamie: nice No, don't worry about that.
Jen: It was beautiful.
Jamie: Do folk mind if I... Well, no, not going to. With reference to the same scene, as much I love, I agree with you, the line of basically... have sex with her or she'll die is hysterical.
Jamie: But I also just absolutely love Chakotay's just I'm so done with this reaction to it of what the hell so when Vorik arrives to challenge B'Elanna and Duvok Councils they must fight is
Red D: Oh yes.
Jamie: his attitude oh, what the hell, we were willing to let them F, we may as well let them fight. over It's just ridiculous. I don't know what these Starfleet crews are into, but like clearly clearly discipline is lacking compared to the well-oiled ship that is a marquee crew. but I just absolutely love the way that he's like, I'm done with this.
Red D: There's something that reminded me as you said this, maybe this is very inappropriate. Like with teenagers, you're like, oh no, you know, be careful. you don't have to rush into anything. Don't do anything you don't want to do.
Red D: like bla bla And then you're like, just be safe. Just be safe. Just use a condom. Fine, whatever.
Jen: Yeah,
Red D: Just follow your hormones, but be safe. kind of Something about that that reminded me of that attitude, maybe.
Jen: he's given up. He's clearly on his third. child now so you know like the first child is you know keep them at church don't let them go anywhere no boys no dating until you're 18 and then by the third child it's like here's load of condoms
Red D: Yeah.
Red D: Yeah. He's like, I'm tired of trying to prevent blown up from making a dumb decision. like I can't anymore.
Jen: effective
Jamie: you safe I don't want it in the house.
Red D: Yeah. Anyway.
Jen: who's next jay
Red D: Hmm.
Jamie: I think it's red if that wasn't her point on sort of common education as a substitute for emotional well-being preparation as one enters puberty.
Red D: Okay. Well, speaking of
Red D: um I think we already mentioned this or kind touched on it, actually. But Tom, I just agree with you what you said earlier, Jamie.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: like I think we see a very mature side of Tom.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: um And I guess we also see how much he does really like B'Elanna, because he wants this but when she actually likes him.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: And he can separate those two things, I guess.
Jamie: Yeah, yeah. I mean, he sort of finally proves once and for all that he's not an F-boy. To use the Made in Chelsea line, even though he's into Bologna, he acknowledges and then keeps his line until sort of coerced by the threat of her death, at which stage he reluctantly seeming is willing to compromise it.
Red D: ah
Red D: yes well yeah well i think it went for life and death situation i guess the dynamics changed
Jamie: But he... he He also uses honesty about his emotional feelings as a reinforcer for why he won't take advantage of her before they reach that point, which I think we all respect.
Red D: Yeah, he's being honest. Oh, the chain.
Jamie: no, it's still here, sorry. I accidentally flicked the camera. I think that actually makes it Jenny to you, my friend.
Jen: Well, I, yeah,
Jamie: Sorry, I calling you my friend this call, which is a bit weird, but it's just what I say is I'm trying to scroll back up to the top of the page as a filler for time.
Jen: that's friend business, my goodness. um so I think you'll appreciate this point, Rad. I just think there are lots of excellently rational moments in this episode, which I love.
Red D: Oh yes?
Jen: um especially the scene with the aliens. So first of all we've got Chakotay's calm and clear explanation of why they're there, the convincing argument about why they weren't able to detect the aliens because their track cover were so successful, and then his very sensible decision to de-escalate by handing the weapon over to them for them to quietly and calmly inspect, and this is all followed up by Tuvok making clear
Red D: ah yeah.
Jen: Just, you know, to be clear, so, you know, we have a crew member here whose actions do not represent us. She is suffering a chemical embankment.
Jamie: yeah
Jen: So it was just so it was so calm and ordered and procedural.
Jamie: She's not one of us. She's not with us.
Jen: And I just thought that's great job. Great, great teamwork. Good, good job, away team.
Red D: Very good. I don't think it worked, but very good.
Jamie: Isn't that the opposite of Timor?
Jen: Well, yeah. I mean it did work it was you it was de-escalating but then they had all the boulders you know and which caused problems
Jamie: She's not one of us.
Red D: Yes, that's that's true. No, they were they were great. They were handling things very professionally, like you would like every team and everything that you ever do to be handled. And when you have have to work with teams and people that don't act like that, it's very annoying.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: yeah and and do you feel like maybe the the red herring, like the typical sort of episode formulaic thing to to storyline to go down would have been, oh oh new aliens.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: They're not going to understand that B'Elanna is acting crazy. And so she's going fire a gun. It's going to cause all this fighting.
Red D: Oh yeah, that's true.
Jen: But they didn't go down that route because, you know, there was a clear, calm explanation.
Red D: That's true.
Jen: This particular crew member, we're letting you know, she's, you know, suffering from X.
Jamie: I
Jen: And so I thought, oh, i like that little turnaround there from the traditional, um,
Red D: yeah but that's a good point actually.
Jamie: ah agree.
Red D: because so
Jamie: den is It is sort of mature, both storytelling and team behaviour.
Red D: Yeah, because they were retreating right before the boulders and everything moves. They were like, okay, fine, on your way type of thing.
Jamie: Yeah, which I think, having mentioned my respect for the behaviours there, makes it only appropriate that my next point moves from good mature behaviours to bad immature behaviours. And the line that I was commenting on during the week that I've always wanted to use in the workplace, I tried to stop her from leaving Captain, but she got very hostile and bit me.
Jamie: That absolutely killed me, and it reminded me of the... Alexander Armstrong and Miller parody of the Blue Peter presenters apologising for being caught on camera during various bits of misbehaviour like taking cocaine and going to the pub and various other indiscretions, always finishing with ah um someone confronting a cameraman and then going, and I accidentally bit him on the nose.
Red D: Oh yes, that thing you said.
Jamie: And then they're saying, so we're sorry.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Jamie: Sorry. Peter, you've been off to see a Vulcan factory in Marsdale or something like that, which I absolutely adored, the fact that it was a voxative of that and shows the direct seam between US 90s and 80s sci-fi and British comedy in the noughties.
Red D: That was a good line. And I had a little throwaway comment, which was, I don't think you can bite people even if you're the team lead.
Jamie: Reach.
Red D: so I think it was sign that something's not quite right there before we knew.
Jen: hmm
Jamie: I don't know. Crewmates used to bite each other regularly at Vesta. um But anyway, sorry.
Red D: Should we be waiting your apology video, Jamie?
Jamie: Oh, I will be wasting the apology video of those that bit me. um Right, next next thing. Red, I think this is over to you.
Red D: I think I'm pretty much almost out of points, but maybe something to go back to is I, um i don't know if it wasn' in the in the zeitgeist terminology in the 90s, early 2000s, but the doctor is calling his treatment alternative treatment.
Red D: Now we've had alternative medicine for a long time. um But, and actually go I think that term has kind of fallen in usage, but I'm And I'm sure it's like this, but his alternative medicine, I kind of asked this earlier, it didn't really work, right?
Red D: Because, or what happened with Ensign, the Ensign?
Jamie: We'll never know if they had sex, if that's what you're asking.
Red D: Because then he obviously was either not satiated or was really fixated on B'Elanna or didn't use the hologram and made his way to the planet.
Jamie: Pumse-wee.
Jen: yeah
Red D: Or do we, or did I miss something, I guess, so.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Jen: because i suppose there's a chance that actually he was acting in order to get out of the holodeck so that he could find balana because i thought at first that it was that it had had some effect and calmed him but then later it the symptoms came back but then now you've said that i think oh well maybe well i don't know
Red D: Yeah.
Red D: Oh, yes. That's a very good and logical interpretation, Jenny.
Jamie: we're We're all sort of assuming that All of it hinges on whether he did or did not mate with the hologram, and we don't know that. We just know that he told the doctor he did and that he was satiated, but that was a ploy that got him back onto the surface.
Jamie: So presume he wasn't on the surface to practice his rock climbing.
Jen: hmm
Jamie: just want to say that in a really sudden, he's not there to practice his rock climbing, if you know what I'm saying. As he goes down pursuing Balan, I don't know quite why that sounded all leery and sleazy to say.
Jamie: um Although I might keep it as another thing along with the geo-asset maintenance technicians in the Delft Quadrant. He's there to practice his rat climbing. Sorry, Jenny. I'm so done
Red D: His sudden, also quickly, but his sudden appearance really surprised me, even though I've seen this episode. And might have also contributed to Chakotay losing the will to love.
Jamie: with this guy.
Red D: Like, he's like, oh my god, I thought we had dealt with you.
Jamie: <unk>m so done with this guy
Jen: it
Jamie: It does not to represent the species.
Red D: I just want to interject and say, can hear such beautiful birds in the background from your...
Jen: yeah oh
Jamie: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Is that OK? Do you want me to see those noise?
Red D: It's okay, it's lovely. Sorry, Jenny, I think you're gonna say something.
Jamie: Yeah, I think it's genius too.
Jen: no it's just that i agree that um it was a bit of a surprise and the birds are beautiful yeah um yeah it was a bit of surprise was not you expecting the first time i watched it sure i i
Jamie: The birds are beautiful.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: I wouldn't have expected him to suddenly turn up in that scene because like there's part of a sort separate, so slightly separate story line they were on the ship, that you know.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: But no, oh my God, this might be like the first time ever that I still have like notes left when Red, you know, is out.
Red D: Keep going, keep going.
Jamie: Yeah. Go, Jenny. Go, Jenny.
Jen: Is it my, okay, okay. um And they but but they're both really short. So the first one was that I just really appreciated the twist on the traditional jewel of two men
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: for Hand of Fair Maiden turned into, you know, Fair Maiden Fights for Herself in the slightly updated version.
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Yes.
Jen: So I think that really helped this episode, which was problematic in some areas, but had little things like that to keep keep the ladies happy, shall we say.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: Yeah, that was great. That was great. i mean, it would have been weird if Tom had been fighting in some very cool whatever happened.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: Um,
Jen: yeah
Jamie: I mean, yes, mean, my final point sort riffs on that because looked at the wiki of this and it said, and if Tom fights, he'll die.
Jamie: And i was like, what's, what's that supposed to be about? Like, is he supposed to be like so much Ensign Vorik's like inferior? And is that because Vorik is a Vulcan or, or is that just poor Wikipedia ring?
Red D: Yeah, I think so.
Jen: I assume that's because he's Vulcan, yeah, because they're supposed to have like 10 times the strength of humans or something.
Jamie: Really?
Jen: it's like
Red D: Yeah, I'm actually stronger. I mean, that's, I mean, and Bellana being half Klingon sets up to actually be able to, I guess, fight in this battle.
Jen: Yeah, it makes them more equal.
Jamie: Hmm. Nice
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: says good next
Jen: Yeah, do you remember in...
Red D: Well, didn't realize, sorry, go ahead.
Jen: the Sorry.
Red D: I just didn't realize Tom's life was threatened by being in that fight. So, but anyway.
Jamie: Well, Vorik seemed pretty up for mating, and, you know, have you got in the way of that? And and he seemed to be in full blood fever, because where before B'Elanna just, frankly, one-shots him and breaks his jaw, this time it's a relatively equal fight, although she's got the upper hand until he sort of knocks himself out, because he just can't keep up with her.
Red D: Oh, they did say to the death, didn't they?
Jamie: But yeah, that that was me. Red, do you have any...
Red D: I think Jenny was going say something again there.
Jamie: Oh, sorry, sorry.
Jen: Oh, no, I mean, I was just commenting on Jamie's, I was going to say, like, for example, you know, in the movie, the Star Trek movie, when the one with Khan, Benedict Cumberbatch, so, you know, he's a genetically modified human to have super power strength.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: uh yes
Jen: And then, ah who is it?
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Spock, is it? Spock is, um the vote the Junior is,
Jamie: Yeah, genius book. Genius book.
Jen: fighting him and they're fairly evenly matched because it's Vulcan against genetically modified human and you know like he tries to do the Vulcan nerve pinch on him and he it affects him but it doesn't immediately lose consciousness like a normal human would and that's just what I was thinking of when i was thinking of like relative strengths of different species
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: uh yes yeah
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. I,
Jamie: yeah
Red D: Yeah, that's a good example. no i thought
Jen: but That was it. The only and comment I had to finish was just, a la it's a great end line of be careful what you wish for from Bologna.
Red D: ah
Jen: Love that. Mm.
Red D: In fact, that almost ties directly to my um final little question, because B'Elanna's like, be careful what you wish for, and a surprisingly flirtatious way to tell them after she just turned it down.
Jamie: here
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: ah But, Jenny, I know that you're wishing for the Borg to arrive all the time when we're watching.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: And at the very next scene, yes, they find, like, a Borg corpse, if that's the word.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Jen: Yeah, I think that's another reason why I love this episode because it's got all the bits that I love in it.
Jamie: yeah
Red D: So...
Jen: So it's got the start of the but proper start of the Balana-Tom relationship, which I love. And then you get excited because you know, you know, the Borg are coming, which as baddies I love. But also, in additionally, it's leading on to a new and you crew member, who I also love.
Red D: Oh, yes, we're coming.
Jen: So yeah, all very exciting.
Red D: Gosh, I forgot about that.
Jamie: Can I ask another question?
Red D: That's somehow.
Jamie: Because typically where the Borg they assimilate everyone and everything that they come across. And the whole
Jamie: race memory of the species that they encounter is saying stay hidden avoid detection because aliens came and they wiped out everything on the surface if those aliens were the borg how come everything wasn't assimilated well that's probably a mystery to be unravelled later
Red D: Oh.
Red D: Or maybe their paranoia saved them from the Borg.
Jamie: but surely the borg assimilate literally everything on the face of the moon once
Red D: No, as in the Borg didn't find them because they were hiding, because they were already paranoid.
Jamie: Yeah, but they there's still life on the planet's surface, though, which the Borg would theoretically assimilate, no?
Red D: I again I lots of stuff I didn't pick up in this episode, but you're saying they have some in the episode they reference this memory about but maybe that memory is not from the book maybe it's from another alien and so they were missed by the ball because they're already hiding if that makes sense.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Oh. so the Borg. Ah, so that Borg is from someone who didn't find them and got left behind. he said...
Red D: That's a theory that i'm just pitching I don't know how correct it could be.
Jamie: nice I mean, yeah, I'm not going ask you guys if we ever find out what what was the deal with that org that they find there.
Jen: b
Red D: Cora The thing just really trying to explain away what is very clearly a plot hole. Cora Bennett,
Jamie: Oh, sorry, right, gosh.
Jen: i I'm um just struggling to, think next time I need to rewatch because I feel like I'm, you know, and you've
Jamie: Well, that was very much.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: in a week I've already forgotten elements of it. So I'm struggling with them over that.
Red D: Yes.
Jen: But also, Bedouin the Borg, they sort of make decisions based on whether it's like worth their while. So if they feel like they've assimilated the majority of the species and there's just one or two that have run off and it's gonna be a lot of effort and resources to get them and they don't think there's anything special about them, then they make a logical decision not to follow them, probably.
Jamie: and
Jamie: and
Red D: Yeah, that's a good point.
Jen: I don't know. I again, I'm just coming up with random.
Red D: I need to pay more attention to how the Borg operate because I do love them as ah as a baddie. They're very menacing and powerful, but their decision-making
Red D: ah
Jamie: Questionable.
Red D: is not clear to me, I guess.
Jamie: It's very messy.
Red D: like Like, you can enter a Borg ship and they'll just ignore you. like or I don't quite understand that yet, if I'm honest.
Jen: Yeah, that's that whole like, if you're not a threat, they just don't bother with you.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: but
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: it yeah the way it plays out is sometimes doesn't quite make sense to me but I don't
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Lots to explore. Yeah, I think.
Jamie: Fair enough.
Jen: know.
Jamie: Right. i think I think that's the end of our points, is it not? or
Red D: yeah
Jamie: Excellent.
Red D: think
Jamie: Themes! Someone has written one of my favourite things with exclamation marks.
Jen: Yeah said in the voice of Tom Paris this is about sex
Red D: Correct.
Jamie: Tell me how this is about sex, Jenny.
Jen: I think we've just spent the last hour doing that, haven't
Jamie: I was really hoping that I could make someone feel embarrassed and make them go through the experience of telling me it's about sex.
Jen: we?
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: I mean, there's a lot about sex.
Red D: I think we're beyond being embarrassed, I hope.
Jamie: Yes. Yes.
Red D: But anyway, go ahead.
Jamie: assistance
Jen: There's a lot about sex for an episode that has no sex.
Red D: Although...
Jen: I mean, just saying.
Jamie: yes
Red D: That's true.
Jamie: yes
Red D: The classic good 90s kind of format.
Jen: Yes, exactly, yes. And as opposed to these days when you turn on Netflix and all you see is sex scene after sex scene, grub, grub, grub. Bye.
Jamie: I would like to point out that you and I started an episode of ER this afternoon, which is a 90s episode, and the very first scene was this guy waking up from this threesome and someone trying to convince him back into bed by fellating him before he went off to a hospital shift.
Jen: yeah
Jamie: So, like, we can't say that the 90s was that much better.
Red D: I don't know ER was so pushing their boundaries!
Jen: me neither Jamie said jaie says to me what are you watching is this ER and I said i well I thought it was but I i don't know what's going on with this opening scene
Red D: My god!
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: One time someone's gonna watch with you. um
Jamie: Yeah, I mean, could be worse.
Jen: yes typical
Jamie: I could have, you know. Anyway, I'm not going to go there. Right, so we've had sex Any others?
Red D: Well, I think someone already wrote this, but I agree. i think I felt saw a lot of parallels to the human experience of puberty and the things that are just biologically driven and you just gotta ride it out.
Red D: don't know why people have different approaches.
Jen: yeah
Jamie: Unfortunate choice of language.
Red D: Okay, sorry. but to know
Jen: it's like an extreme version isn't it like uh like uh i think i read a comment on one of the like review forums for this episode that was talking about how but um it's very it's got a lot of parallels but um it seemed more as a
Red D: That's extreme, yes.
Jamie: Yeah. um
Jen: ah like medical condition as if someone came and uh assaulted you when they were in an episode of um having an episode of like schizophrenia or or some kind of like um you know um more slightly more serious disorder i guess so that's kind of how i viewed it it was like but it was like human puberty but more extreme
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Yeah, for sure more extreme, but I think...
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: um I want to just add something to that I said earlier, because I think B'Elanna's portrayal was... You know, i picked up on that little teenage girl point, but I think she was playing both puberties, male and female, in a sense, because when she's like, this is my achievement, this is my...
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: i feel like that was a bit more masculine energy, and then she had the feminine, oh, why is everyone telling me there's something wrong with me, and... hair f flick or whatever. So, but yes, obviously pushed to it pushed to the extreme.
Jen: And the competitive rock climbing, you know. thats that's
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: ah well here Here is here's where I want to jump in. because One thing that I saw throughout this episode was rock climbing as a racing scale for potential mate.
Red D: That's true.
Jamie: Neelix comes bottom because he failed rock climbing and got injured.
Red D: that's true
Jamie: Vorik attempts to entice B'Elanna by starting the episode trying to make out that he's better at rock climbing than Tom Paris. And Tom Paris basically comes out as you know the most appealing, ah i was going to say victim, but really I mean subject of B'Elanna's Ponfar because of the fact that he doesn't fuck up any rock climbing. So that's the thing I want pick up from this episode.
Red D: Yeah, well, isn't that why men do rock climbing to be sexier to women? I'm just teasing.
Jamie: I don't know, Red. I don't know.
Red D: I don't know.
Jamie: Is is that why for Grockline?
Red D: I'm just making a very bad joke. and I'm sure they do it for lots of other reasons.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: What I find quite funny about the choice of rock climbing in this as the, you know, like, competitive sport is that obviously we're, here this is Star Trek, and I don't know what your perspective growing up on it was, but very much in my social group as a teenager, rock climbing was seen as the sport that all the nerds do.
Jen: I don't know if that's ah that's a thing, that was just in my area.
Red D: I think, well, no, I think first of all, I don't think it was rock climbing when we were at school.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: It was something that exposed at university.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: But yes, I mean, I did go rock climbing and they were nerds.
Jen: I mean, don't get me wrong, I like rope cammon. It's good fun. but
Red D: I had a crush on a guy who I nicknamed Australopithecus because he looked a little bit like an early man nerd.
Jen: Oh wow, I mean, i think that says more about your nerdiness than his favorite.
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: to Ah, themes, themes, you always lead us to some unexpected places. But we're at the bit of the episode where we often get taken some yet more unexpected places.
Jamie: So, star players, my good friends.
Jen: Well I have chosen in time this time so shall I go first?
Red D: yes
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: i For all the reasons I've already gone into I picked B'Elanna this one and also i am finding that this doing this podcast is making me realise that um I actually really rate her character way more than I realised before.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: I always think of StarCard of Voyager and I think of Janeway and
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: um In fact, there's so many episodes where I want to vote B'Elanna.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: So she's she's gone up in my estimation.
Red D: Oh, yes.
Red D: That's great. I love that. um I hinted at my start player earlier. I'm going to stick to it ah because I can't think of anyone else. Oh, sorry. That was my phone. so But I'm actually going to go for the actor. That's why I'm just looking at another tab. I think his name is Alexander Enberg. Great.
Red D: enburg um right
Jamie: who acts.
Red D: Is he the...
Jen: Zorik?
Red D: What? ah Wait a minute, I just found something very interesting by mistake. So he plays Warwick Alexander-Enberg. Oh, here we have some Hollywood nepotism.
Red D: He is the son of television screenwriter and producer Jerry Taylor, who wrote on Star Trek.
Jen: Oh, oh.
Jamie: interesting.
Red D: Jenny, that's not gonna help your perspective.
Jen: ah That's how we got the job. know
Red D: But that's, sorry, I was just getting quite confused because like he's not a writer. Then I'll see.
Jamie: Yeah, I'm on on an episode is as high flounce as this, I'm actually struggling a little bit to think of a star player.
Jen: there no inanimate objects, Jamie? What about the rocks?
Jamie: mean, I would have to go for the Python that failed
Red D: So a serious lack of inanimate objects in this episode.
Jamie: i would have to go for the python that failed the one that got closest to offing a member, or the toughest member of Captain Janeway's command staff of anything in the Delta Quadrant. um Because nothing else got closer than her to both seeing off Bellana Torres, the toughest member, and Neelix, the most annoying member. Although you could say that Bellana, by pushing herself in proximity to Neelix as Clearly the lightning rod in the crew for all disaster had what she deserved coming to her. So actually I'm going to give it to Neelix as a very, very effective lightning rod for disaster, nearly managing to take down the hardest member of the crew with him.
Jamie: Almost. seeing
Red D: That was quite a journey that we just went on.
Jamie: meaning I think we've all been on a journey this episode, Red.
Jen: Yes.
Red D: ah
Jamie: We've all been on a journey and I for one will be signing up for rock climbing after this. So there we go.
Red D: And I will be reading... ah Was it Jackie Cooper? Jimmy Cooper's Rivals.
Jamie: Oh, Jilly Cooper. Oh, yes. Well, just watch it. i that means these things You'll see things that you've never seen before.
Red D: No, I want to read it. I've never read it.
Jamie: um But yes, it's it's quite a thing. It's English classic of a certain sort.
Red D: feel like it probably...
Jamie: Probably the inspiration...
Red D: Like a lot of not and like a lot of English content for what's a better word.
Jamie: Yeah, no, sorry.
Red D: i think some things you appreciate more having lived here. So if I'd read it when was in South Africa, maybe I would have enjoyed it. But now I feel like I should definitely give it a try because I understand it a bit more.
Jamie: The first of the Russia Chronicles, and that's the author's own name for the series, not mine.
Red D: Jenny, have you read it?
Jen: No, but I think maybe I should. I don't know if it will. Would I enjoy it, Dave?
Jamie: i don't yet i don't know about this, people. i don't know how I feel about it.
Red D: I think we I'm going to read it because there's so much of this um romance people are reading so much romance.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: I'm never going get into that, but I can at least read rivals.
Jen: So it's not, what is it, romance or?
Red D: It is romance. Sorry. What I mean is that like the genre, this romance genres becomes super popular and there's all like the fairy romance and the.
Jamie: so
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Some have described it as a bonkbuster.
Jen: What is that?
Jamie: Romance.
Red D: I said a bang, bang, bangity bang.
Jamie: your thanks love that guy i guys
Red D: I said a bang, bang, bang, bang.
Jen: Oh right okay okay. Yeah no I've never been into very much books. I don't mind a good rob an old 90s rom-com you know like four weddings and a funeral but oh yeah I get you.
Jamie: because
Red D: Yes. Oh.
Jamie: Now, we're being joined by Kat, so this this suggests it's possibly time to bring this to a close.
Red D: That's true. Time for second dinner.
Jamie: Sorry, the way you said that, you time for set, and then there was that slight pause before them dinner, it's like, who's got the pon far?
Red D: Time for second and dinner.
Jamie: And by she, I mean red, not Moir. Moir just, you know, is checking all this out.
Red D: Oh, boy. Cutie.
Jamie: Jingle. Jingle.
Red D: Well, should quickly check what our next episode is whenever that might be released?
Jen: I'm very excited for upcoming episodes.
Jamie: I'm busy channeling whale song.
Jen: It's good now.
Red D: Unity is the next episode. Very interesting.
Jen: I have no memory of that.
Red D: Me neither. Well, I don't have a memory of the blurb.
Jamie: Would you guys say this in time, place of dance channeling whale song?
Red D: But yeah, ah Coda is published and we'll see you for Unity.
Jamie: Boomtown. It's been an honor.
Red D: Thanks, everybody. My head's up now.
