Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
We watch "Future’s End, Part II" (S3 Ep.9)
14 Plays14 days ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Future’s End, Part II", in which we discover that “ghosting” is not such a new phenomenon, and it doesn’t pay to be a loyal goon.
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Recommended
Transcript
Technical Troubles and Jingles
00:00:00
J Wow
Well, that feels a bit premature, but okay then.
00:00:03
Jen
Jingle time?
00:00:03
Red D
oh yes sorry but i must play the wrong one because i forgot what order they are on the sound bar because we haven't done this for such a long time
00:00:04
Jen
Jingle?
00:00:10
Jen
There go. It has been a while.
00:00:17
Jen
There's dancing going on.
00:00:19
Red D
yes for those that can't see there's dancing and snacking for what i can see
00:00:21
J Wow
I mean, it looks a bit like an extra in Day of the Dead, but it's going on.
00:00:25
Jen
That's the end of the thriller videos, but thriller is fine.
TV Doctors Mix-Up
00:00:35
Jen
Multitasking.
00:00:35
Red D
I'm so it's just me. What did Jamie just remind me of the doctor slightly?
00:00:41
Jen
Witch doctor.
00:00:46
Red D
sorry.
00:00:47
Jen
Oh, I thought I was thinking, do you know, when you said the doctor, I just assumed Doctor Who. And so I went, you know, which which time Lord, but of course you've been origin of Doctor.
00:00:52
Red D
I
00:00:55
J Wow
which Which doctor did you mean, Red?
00:00:58
Red D
met the doctor. There's something about your expression or your shoulders or something that reminded me of the doctor.
00:01:01
J Wow
As in...
00:01:05
J Wow
What, as in going to the doctor?
00:01:07
Jen
No.
00:01:07
Red D
the doctor from Star Trek!
00:01:07
J Wow
As opposed good to who?
00:01:08
Red D
You know this whole podcast that we have where we talk about all the characters?
00:01:09
Jen
Okay.
00:01:10
J Wow
oh Oh, wow, that that got even more offensive than I thought.
00:01:14
Red D
It's not offensive!
00:01:15
J Wow
It is!
00:01:17
Red D
Why?
00:01:18
J Wow
The woman snags his dress sense.
00:01:21
Red D
um not saying you look like the doctor, but something you did reminded me of the doctor.
00:01:28
Jen
okay
00:01:28
J Wow
A man whose entire acting career is defined by acting something that doesn't know how to be human.
00:01:35
Red D
He had some interesting roles before, i think. Yay. it is
00:01:40
Jen
Did he?
00:01:40
J Wow
Yeah, but none of them were his breakthrough.
00:01:40
Jen
Oh, I may have to look that up. So,
Star Trek Voyager 'Future's End Part 2' Summary
00:01:45
J Wow
Hello?
00:01:46
Jen
am in charge today.
00:01:47
Jen
ra um jamy are you going to do a one minute summary?
00:01:54
J Wow
I am.
00:01:55
Jen
That was a very delay. Are you sure about that? It's a very delayed response.
00:01:59
J Wow
I am.
00:02:00
Jen
Okay. Off you go. Three, two, one.
00:02:03
J Wow
you realised that i actually needed to be prompted. It's a bit like a vampire here. So this is the second episode of Future's End in which our intrepid band of companions, the crew of Star Trek Voyager, complete their attempt to go back in history, foil A not too unlike a Thiel or Musk-like billionaire from destroying a future hundreds of years to come through the medium of apparently nicking the starship he nicked off someone else who is now living like a crazy hobo.
00:02:49
J Wow
Discuss.
00:02:51
Jen
Beautiful.
00:02:51
Red D
Very, very good. Sorry, I just stopped for the essay. Very good.
00:02:57
Jen
very nice one minute summary, thank you. It might have even been less than one minute, so even more impressive.
00:03:03
J Wow
Hey, no one ever accuses me of brevity. Don't you go there, Jenny. Don't you go there.
00:03:09
Jen
And now we have, i' I'm zooming through these guys. I'm clearly a fast paced moderator, but we now have initial reactions and I'm definitely not going first for this because that's a little bit.
00:03:14
Red D
No problem.
00:03:20
J Wow
Do you have something you ought to get off your chest?
00:03:20
Jen
a little bit critical.
00:03:22
Red D
I think mine is... like Well, I think I know... Ours are slightly different, but kind of the same. Because I was like, how are we still watching this episode? Because...
00:03:31
J Wow
It does feel like it could have been done in one episode, but they decided they needed a cliffhanger this season. this season
00:03:38
Red D
I mean, I feel like it's partially our fault for what... the You know, last watching, I don't know, multiple weeks ago. But I was like, are we stuck in a time loop? What is happening? Because...
00:03:50
Red D
ah
00:03:50
Jen
Yeah.
00:03:51
Red D
I've done so much and achieved so little because I hadn't watched the second episode yet.
00:03:58
Jen
I also see you have a ah second point on this red, which is quite interesting.
Northern Lights and Time Loops
00:04:03
Red D
I do. do. It's apparently that time of the year again, where everybody is seeing the Northern lights. know if you remember when this happened last year and everyone was saying, Northern lights, Northern lights, you sent me pictures of your Northern lights.
00:04:10
Jen
Yes! Because we saw them.
00:04:13
Red D
And I was like, I went to Berlin and my friend and I sat on a balcony in the freezing cold being like, maybe you'll see them here.
00:04:14
Jen
Yeah.
00:04:19
Red D
And we didn't see any Northern lights. And I live in central London. So the chance of me seeing the lights are very slim, but now there's another like surge of solar activity and everyone's got seeing Northern lights, Northern lights, Northern lights.
00:04:29
Red D
And, um, I was watching the theme, you know, the opening sequence or the music and they go through like what looks like, I guess, space, Northern the Lights. And it just reminded me that I still haven't seen that all the Northern Lights from my backyard. i'm very annoyed.
00:04:43
Jen
But have you...
00:04:44
Red D
Or so someone else's backyard, but still annoyed.
00:04:47
Jen
i was going to say, is it just that you haven't seen them from your place or that you haven't seen them?
00:04:51
Red D
Well, no, I haven't seen them, but I'm annoyed that I haven't seen them from my place because everyone's seeing them from their place.
00:04:56
J Wow
Hmm. Hmm.
00:04:57
Jen
Well, was any consolation, although we did get quite nice display last year. I have my tracker and I got the alert and everything and I checked and I could see that it was really high.
00:05:07
Jen
It was like 575, which means we could usually see them.
00:05:08
J Wow
Hmm.
00:05:12
Jen
It literally did not stop pouring with rain. um The whole, you know, and then I bizarrely couldn't sleep.
00:05:15
Red D
Oh,
00:05:19
Jen
So I was even awake.
Nostalgia and Critique of Star Trek Themes
00:05:21
Jen
at about 1am and that would have been perfect timing and it still showed it at a really high setting.
00:05:25
Red D
yes.
00:05:28
J Wow
hmm
00:05:28
Jen
And I even went outside because so I couldn't really sleep for some reason, um just on the off chance. um And there was this like very slight glow but it was just pouring rain and cloudy.
00:05:38
Red D
Oh, sorry.
00:05:39
Jen
So yeah, it was very disappointing but there we are.
00:05:42
Red D
That is annoying, but
00:05:44
Jen
And I agree, the opening does look like the Northern Lights.
00:05:47
Red D
ah glad i'm I'm glad I wasn't just making that up because I was like, well, people understand what I'm talking about.
00:05:53
Jen
Oh no!
00:05:53
Red D
But yeah.
00:05:54
J Wow
I mean, it's supposed to in inspire a sense of, I don't know, whimsical nostalgia every time you watch Star Trek, not a theme of resentful anger that you haven't seen a phenomenon in our natural world.
00:06:09
Red D
Well, until I've seen them from my...
00:06:10
J Wow
I applaud you for rejecting it negatively.
00:06:12
Red D
until I see them from my central London flat, I'm going to feel resentful every time I watch Star Trek.
00:06:20
Jen
Well, I had a similar reaction. I mean, not about the Northern Lights, but about the, how are we still watching this? um Mine phrased as, not this again.
00:06:31
Jen
Just because, yeah, it does feel like it goes goes on quite a bit.
00:06:31
Red D
ha
00:06:35
Jen
Like, so it stretches out this one. And also because, you know, you know how I love to see them all flying around space, having exciting adventures. And in this one, they're just in like, you know, Earth.
00:06:46
Jen
It's just not exciting.
00:06:47
J Wow
Hmm, so moosh.
00:06:50
Red D
Anna-Maria Also, I mean identify just speaking completely out of turn here, but because it was a two parts I kept thinking is this the end of the series or the season. Anna-Maria Like how often do they have a two parts in the middle, I wonder if i'm just curious what was drove like the how that came to be because I don't think it's that's that common.
00:07:08
Red D
um
00:07:09
Jen
Oh, I didn't, yeah, I didn't even...
00:07:09
J Wow
I realised they didn't have the budget for a whole extra episode, so they just thought they'd get some more on people's time and shoehorned a bit more into their acting days.
00:07:17
Red D
Because sometimes they'll be like, um i don't know, going be showing the Olympics in between, so you have to a cliff. I don't know. I'm just making it like something, maybe something happened. and like So there was a reason why they had this like two parts in the middle of the series.
00:07:28
J Wow
They were probably hours away from having to show people in slow motion to drag it out.
00:07:32
Red D
okay
00:07:33
Jen
um i yeah I just assumed it was the end of the season.
00:07:36
Red D
We're only halfway through.
00:07:37
Jen
Yeah.
00:07:37
Red D
That's exactly my point. but
00:07:39
Jen
and You do point make ah a really good reminder for me of something they read. I have done a terrible job and I have not actually announced the at the beginning of the podcast, but this is season three, episode nine, Voyager Futures End part two.
00:07:54
Jen
So there we go.
00:07:54
Red D
Thank you, no problem.
00:07:54
Jen
Done my job now. just
00:07:56
J Wow
This is the news that this podcast is looking at Season 3, Episode 9, Future... Sorry, just made me think of Have I Got News For You where they repeat the headline.
00:08:05
Jen
Oh, well, I mean, I'm going to take that as a massive compliment because yeah I would love to sound like Ian Hisslop or roam any of the presenters. Okay, so one cool thing.
00:08:17
Jen
I don't think anyone has one cool thing. Anyone? Anyone?
00:08:21
Red D
No, I just had an uncool thing, which is that
00:08:23
Jen
yeah
00:08:24
Red D
ah star trek voyager is no longer available on netflix in the uk because paramount is not is trying to get all their star trek onto their streaming service apparently like which is very annoying for the rest of us and why are we going to be hunting for the dvds as we discussed or fair
00:08:39
Jen
Yeah, it's time to go old school DVD player. Yeah, I'm bored with that plan.
00:08:43
J Wow
Yeah.
Tuvok's Fast Food and Non Sequitur Discussion
00:08:46
Jen
Okay.
00:08:46
J Wow
DVD player and gramophone for sound system.
00:08:48
Jen
graph of thing We're a record player.
00:08:53
Jen
Okay, so our exciting discussions. And um you know how I love bit of organization and and formula of gaslighting.
00:09:03
J Wow
Gaslighting.
00:09:06
Jen
I was going to say I'm going to go first because I'm first on the notes and can't take the disorganization of Northropa.
00:09:09
Red D
Yes, no problem.
00:09:14
Jen
Yeah, no, just a really, um I mean, all of mine are just really like random thoughts. Sorry guys, there's there's not much, you know.
00:09:21
Red D
But they're quite long thoughts. like I'm really looking forward to hearing them.
00:09:23
Jen
They are, they're just, they're just like ramblings.
00:09:25
Red D
I just haven't read them. Yeah, I'm looking forward to them.
00:09:27
J Wow
We just engaged with Led's outrage that Jenny has some long thoughts.
00:09:27
Jen
I'm really sorry.
00:09:31
Red D
I'm not outraged. It's just It looks different. If we did a like quick analysis of these nodes compared to all other nodes, I think we would notice a length difference. I haven't read any of them, so I'm excited to hear them.
00:09:40
Jen
Yeah, it's weird. Sometimes I have literally nothing to say and I have to really struggle to get even five words out.
00:09:45
J Wow
Oh my
00:09:49
Jen
Well, five, yeah, onto the page. But this time i have a look.
00:09:53
J Wow
gosh.
00:09:56
Jen
Yeah, I mean, i just thought that I enjoyed the handling of Tom's gaslighting at the start of the of the show when he's basically telling Rain that you're imagining things.
00:10:07
Jen
You know, we're not, there's no starship and there's no voyager and we're not part of this organization called Starfleet and then basically she calls him out and says stop lying to me I know you're dying to be crazy but he basically says you're right I'm sorry I can tell you this I can't tell you this and these are the root very good reasons why I can't tell you this and I just thought wow he's handled that read this that's the way to do it
00:10:33
J Wow
Hmm.
00:10:34
Red D
Yes! I have to say, like, I agree that he handled it well because I never thought that you could... an option was kind of being straightforward but not revealing the truth.
Future Voyagers and Gaslighting
00:10:45
Red D
if that makes sense.
00:10:46
Jen
o
00:10:46
Red D
Like, I thought you'd either be like defending, lying, trying to come up with like a plausible scenario. But yeah, yeah eventually he's just like, I can't tell you, lives are at stake. and But he's very straightforward and like frank. And yeah.
00:11:02
Jen
And her response is, you know, that thank you and I appreciate that you telling me that you can't tell me for these reasons and you see it all works out.
00:11:12
J Wow
i would I would like to focus on a different aspect of this, right? So how many years in the future are the Star Trek Voyager crew than Angeles? right?
00:11:26
Red D
400 years ish, cause they oh wait, wait, 24, 300 years.
00:11:27
J Wow
four hundred years right So I just would like, and this is, sorry, I'm jumping ahead to my point, but it sort of segues quite nicely off Jenny's.
00:11:29
Red D
three hundred years
00:11:36
Jen
Gave for it, yeah.
00:11:37
J Wow
I would just like to take a moment to reflect on the absurdity and the barefaced chutzpah of trying to gaslight someone that one doesn't have a completely different aspect of when we're talking to folk 400 years in the past. Like, I don't have a different ah accent. You're imagining that. Can you imagine him going back to someone in the 1700s in England?
00:12:00
J Wow
in england in
00:12:00
Red D
Jamie, you would fit right in. what are you talking about?
00:12:03
Jen
so
00:12:04
Red D
i
00:12:04
J Wow
I mean, yes, there is a degree of, you know, I might sound accent-wise, but my way of expressing myself would be completely different. I mean, language changes so much in 400 years.
00:12:16
J Wow
i just I just love... I mean, he'd probably sound, to him, they'd probably sound Shakespearean. And I love the chutzpah of, no, no,
00:12:27
J Wow
It is not I who is gathlet yourself, it is you! apparently lisping substitutes for Shakespearean dog roll here.
00:12:37
J Wow
I just love the chutzpah of him trying to pull that off.
00:12:42
Red D
Yeah, I mean, I guess I see what you say, but I think also when you you are the one from the future going back, you have a bit more knowledge, right, that you can leverage. Or if it was me, I just wouldn't say anything.
00:12:52
J Wow
I would not fit it in in the 16th century.
00:12:53
Red D
Yeah.
00:12:57
Jen
I think if it was me, realistically, I would do what what you were saying, Red, and just panic and make a hash of it rather than realizing I could just say, I'm sorry, I can't tell you for these reasons.
00:13:07
Red D
yeah
00:13:09
Jen
That is an option, as you say.
00:13:12
Red D
Yeah, I was really like, oh, that was good modeling of some communication tactics I did not know of.
00:13:13
Jen
would not realize that.
00:13:19
Jen
Absolutely. On to your point, I think, Red.
00:13:23
Red D
Well, my point is, wow, very much lower brow than I guess you guys were discussing, because but before we had the opening credits or sequence, I guess Tuvok had to go find food, and him returning with fast food just really delighted and amused me for some reason.
00:13:42
Red D
Hello, cutie.
00:13:42
Jen
Made your date.
00:13:44
Red D
Um, yeah, at first I thought he had McDonald's because to me it looks a bit like McDonald's packaging, but then they mention all types of food that you don't get at McDonald's. So I think it's just more general fast food. It's like two bucks.
00:13:53
Jen
I think there was a potentially a bur breakfast breakfast burrito in there or something, wasn't there?
00:13:57
Red D
Hmm.
00:13:58
J Wow
I am quite surprised that Tuvok being Tuvok, he doesn't comment on the nutrition level of the food.
00:14:04
Jen
Mmm.
00:14:05
Red D
Yeah, was just, I know, just a,
00:14:07
J Wow
This food maintains adequate nutrition for a day, but will lead to heart attack if continued on an ongoing basis.
00:14:16
Jen
he why He does comment on it though, and actually that is my next point.
00:14:21
Red D
Oh, great. good
00:14:21
Jen
So this is going very well guys, very good. I like the flow. um so it happens in the same scene, but basically I learnt a new phrase and I like learning new phrases. I did not know had not really heard non-secretar before.
00:14:37
Jen
So had to look that up and I have decided I really like it and then I'm gonna try and use that in a sentence sometime. But that was about the fast food, because I think when the character Rain brought all that last feedback um and then there was some, um I mean this is really testing my memory now because I watched it a week ago, there was some comment about um that's not breakfast, that's an afternoon at the Super Bowl or something and he said that is a non-secretive, not a non-secretive?
00:15:03
Red D
Yes, yes.
00:15:10
Red D
Yes. And not secretive, is someone just saying something that's not really related to what anyone else, is that correct? Because I feel like I do that all the time. Or what's the definition from Talos journey?
00:15:20
Jen
Yeah, it was something about, um you know, assuming a conclusion that isn't a related to what came before it, if that makes sense any sense.
00:15:30
J Wow
I feel I shouldn't teach my mum this word. She might inflict it on my dad quite a lot.
00:15:35
Jen
So like if you were to say, um it's raining outside, the so therefore it will be sunny tomorrow. i think I think that's what it means, but you know, I've just learned. but gonna try and try and use it. I like it.
00:15:52
Red D
It's a good one. i also, I'm sorry, one of those words that I hear all the time, they'll be finding clicks ah when you hear it the right, like, in the right context. Like, okay, I get it now.
00:16:04
Jen
Yeah, I think I have heard it before, but um it was just one of those that I didn't pick up from context for some reason. So this time I actually looked it up and I've never,
00:16:17
Jen
done that before. So now i'm hoping i'll try I will actually remember what it means.
00:16:22
Red D
Nice.
00:16:24
Jen
Anywho, Jamie, anything?
00:16:26
J Wow
Well, I had sort of given you my thing because I had mentioned the fact that Tom Paris is trying to gaslight whilst being 400 years in the future and having a completely different sort of aspect. However, I will jump back on it. So I absolutely love the fact that everyone says the real starship is a hoax. And I love the fact that mirrors a conceit in one of the books I'm reading called The Stranger Times, in which basically a someone who for the first time in history has been converted into a vampire has been caught walking on air on top of a building before, you know, then flying off.
00:17:08
J Wow
And the way in which the organisation trying to cover that up covers it up is by dumping thousands and thousands of videos based all over Earth of things that look very, very similar to this so that everyone everyone's like, oh, it's just an AI hoax sort of thing.
UFO Sightings and Reality vs Fiction
00:17:23
J Wow
And and I quite like the fact that that half basically happens, that everyone has gotten so obsessed with the idea of seeing UFOs that they've all made up or imagined them. And now the real one is there and they can't you know accept that it's real because they've imagined so many and it's just destroyed the credibility, with the exception of the US military. But that's a different court story.
00:17:46
Red D
Yeah, that is funny. And um when I was a kid, I was very into, well, I was actually very terrified of UFOs. Not into UFOs. And then I guess, no, vampires, I didn't really, I didn't have as much much exposure to vampires.
00:17:55
J Wow
More so than Vampons?
00:17:59
J Wow
Ah, their words terrified me.
00:18:03
Red D
I think the UFOs and stuff came more from like, that was in the zeitgeist and X-Files eventually. um
00:18:10
J Wow
Expos is scary though.
00:18:10
Red D
But yes, But then I read the stat that the number of sightings went up like a 3000% I'm making up that number anytime an alien movie comes out.
00:18:14
Jen
oh
00:18:20
Red D
So I was like, okay, well, I mean, why am I worried about the UFOs?
00:18:21
Jen
that's nervous trying to think
00:18:26
Red D
So...
00:18:26
Jen
oh that's nervous
00:18:30
Jen
trying to think well
00:18:30
Red D
so
00:18:31
J Wow
Maybe, maybe, Alien was a self-referential documentary filmed and made by aliens who came down to Earth to watch it so they wouldn't be seen as reality TV shows in stars in their home system.
00:18:47
Red D
The first workplace mockumentary. Is that what you're saying?
00:18:51
J Wow
Oh yeah.
00:18:52
Red D
ah Maybe.
00:18:56
Jen
Could be.
00:18:58
J Wow
And that would account for the 300% increase as everyone was just seeing them come to see the premieres.
00:18:58
Jen
On to you, Red.
00:19:04
Red D
I'm sorry, Jamie. I was reading my next question, so I could not process what you said there. But I have a big question for everybody, which was like, can someone remind me what's going on again? What in this episode?
00:19:16
Red D
And how did that Starling or Starlink, I couldn't quite tell, um guy get his hands on the time ship in the first place?
Temporal Loops and Captain Braxton
00:19:26
Jen
Oh, you're really testing us now, right?
00:19:29
J Wow
Well, basically... um There's a sort of weird time loop where the captain from 400 years in the future, of 400 years in advance of or further into the future than Star Trek Voyager, comes back in time to stop them going onto the planet because basically his doing that previously will lead to a massive explosion that kills billions of people.
00:19:56
J Wow
Except that inadvertently his coming back to do that leads to him crashing his ship because Voyager fight back, as he's going to destroy them, his ship gets stolen by the billionaire who then goes on to do exactly what they're worried about him doing going on in the future.
00:20:04
Red D
Oh, yes.
00:20:11
Red D
Got it.
00:20:14
J Wow
And that's the whole sort of temporal loop situation.
00:20:18
Jen
Wow.
00:20:18
Red D
ah Well done, Jamie.
00:20:18
Jen
Well done, Jamie.
00:20:18
J Wow
Where we're at now is is that, sorry, this is clearly a deficiency on the partial-by-minute summary. Where we are now is that the crew of Voyager are trying to steal back the wrecked future timeship that he, ah well, that that he, the billionaire, has stolen. But he's managed to see them off once because of the fact that he's got shielding that they didn't expect and has also downloaded 20% of their computer files, including the Doctor.
00:20:51
Red D
Okay, now you're just showing off. But thank you very much, Amy.
00:20:53
Jen
you
00:20:57
J Wow
No, Red. I just do my homework.
00:20:59
Red D
No, I was like, I think I was so busy at work and i would ask I even watched the recap and everything because it was a while since this was the last episode. And then at some point i was like, I'm not processing and I forgot how they got to that.
00:21:09
Red D
I can't stop it.
00:21:10
J Wow
Not what that I want to make this the Bader-Meinhof gang of Star Trek Voyage podcasts, but do we need to question revolutionary discipline and commitment?
00:21:21
Red D
Okay, I'll answer that for you. No. no
00:21:25
Jen
I think there is one of us who, you know, actually does all the tech background and uploading and beautiful artwork. And so I'm not sure we've got a leg to stand on. t
00:21:37
J Wow
Jacques-Couze, mon chef.
00:21:39
Red D
But no, thank you. that but Thank you. Because I was like, where did he get that ship from? It was Captain Braxton's ship. Thank you.
00:21:45
Jen
so hard, honestly, even if we hadn't had that the break between episodes, I think that I just find this song a bit of a struggle to follow. but maybe that's just me.
00:21:54
Red D
Yeah, I was struggling.
00:21:56
Jen
My next point is one that I thought you might appreciate, Red. Just think there's some good Tuvok quotes and there's quite a few.
00:22:03
Red D
Yes.
00:22:04
Jen
It's pretty good and I quite enjoyed it in particular. When Janeway asks him, this this person you've made contact with, Green,
00:22:11
Red D
Yes.
00:22:13
Jen
what's going on is she trustworthy and he looks stuvet gla over at her and Tom Paris basically flirting and says they appear to be bonding on a cross-cultural level with the eyebrow raised as he does just enjoyed that
00:22:20
J Wow
Oh,
00:22:24
J Wow
yeah.
00:22:27
Red D
Yes, it was great. I'm very glad. i'm always glad when other people join my Tuvok Appreciation Club.
00:22:34
J Wow
The thing Tuvok occasionally says something to imply something apparent about Paris, and it's a Star Trek Voyager, and I call it Star Trek Voyager, bam, shak, and wow, wow, moment, and clearly they're bonding on a cross-cultural level.
00:22:47
J Wow
Hell yeah, is what Tuvok means. What he says is they appear to be bonding on a cross-cultural level. But we all know what he means.
00:22:57
Red D
Yes, we can read Tubbock, understand Tubbock.
00:22:58
J Wow
Oh yeah.
00:23:02
J Wow
I mean, he's not a book, but he's pretty transparent.
00:23:04
Red D
oh
00:23:07
J Wow
So...
00:23:08
Jen
Okay, over to you, Jamie.
00:23:10
J Wow
Well, I... It's an odd one, because I sort of thought this was two things. And then it became... they sort of linked in my
Space Adventures vs Earth Plots
00:23:20
J Wow
head. So I just wanted to talk about the outback, for lack of a better way of grouping them, hillbillies who capture Chakotay and Torres as they crash land in an attempt to teleport evil billionaire out.
00:23:37
J Wow
um And I just love the fact that they feel like a typical Great danger plot device for Star Trek forays back in time to planet Earth and a massive contrast with future star Fleishins. And then I wrote, Pseudo-religiosity and confirmation bias in our villains. Star Trek, you spoil us.
00:23:58
Red D
Hahaha
00:23:58
Jen
You see?
00:23:59
J Wow
um Now, I was also reflecting on this and the whole world out of you, and I did wonder if there might be a little bit of episodic foreshadowing, because the whole contrast of it's about individuality, which is us, versus collectivity, which is you, um for whilst, of course, completely...
00:24:21
J Wow
inappropriately applied in that most of the hillbillies are clones of each other and yes, not particularly driving individuality. um It did seem to rather foreshadow what I understand to be the dynamics of the Borg versus Federation struggle of the collectivism of the Borg against the individualism of the ah Federation and Starfleet.
00:24:38
Red D
Oh.
Borg vs Federation: Foreshadowing
00:24:48
J Wow
And then I effectively thought that the key to each's effectiveness was ah in their ability to embrace the characteristics of the others. So the Borg's failure to either build support or the sort of ingenuity that would have allowed them to win that struggle, being their lack of ability to embrace slash provide a home for the individual and start Federation's ability to try being predicated completely on the fact that individuals can embrace the collective cause and end without losing individuality and that being something of a message.
00:25:29
Red D
Wow, Jamie. I mean, have to turn my brain back on. to like day ya no that was...
00:25:34
J Wow
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Can we go back to, you know, to work perving in Paris and rain?
00:25:39
Red D
um I mean, I think, I mean, that is, I think Jenny's also got a point coming up about this as well. So yeah, because did not have, i was like individualism and collectors of years.
00:25:46
Jen
I feel like he stole my point a little bit.
00:25:52
Red D
We've been discussing this for like a thousand years. I can't be bothered, but that was, um, the foreshadowing I did not consider ah sure.
00:26:03
Jen
No, that's true. That was not in my my point about this, but a good one.
00:26:08
Red D
Well, Jenny, don't you want to ah rebuff or join in
00:26:11
J Wow
Yeah, make your point, because I clearly... i've Yeah.
00:26:14
Jen
Oh, well, um yeah, I mean, I guess we'll but we're going against the order then read the order.
00:26:19
Red D
Okay, sorry.
00:26:20
Jen
That's not the order.
00:26:20
Red D
Sorry. We'll come back to that.
00:26:21
J Wow
No, go against the order!
00:26:21
Jen
um um
00:26:21
Red D
We'll come back to that.
00:26:22
J Wow
Go against the order! I was so close to sabotaging it.
00:26:25
Jen
No, to be to be fair, it is a little, it is different to my point. So it isn't, you didn't steal it entirely Jamie, because
00:26:31
J Wow
don't you give me all this plagiarism shit and then back away from it? Make it stick, woman. Make it stick.
00:26:36
Jen
no no because I was just commenting on the stuff that happens in this episode so I didn't really like see the foreshadowing of the Borg um but yeah it's a good point I guess um the Borg is the what what happens when collectivism goes wrong when you've got um you know there's an element of control um
00:26:58
J Wow
Not just an element with the Borg, it's total control, a totality.
00:27:00
Jen
yeah yeah um presumably by the queen I'm not really sure how the books are up and you can't leave and there's no way out and then I guess this is what a lot of people who worry about, i don't know, communism things, imagine as the extreme.
00:27:16
J Wow
Also, can the Borg Queens travel in time?
00:27:21
Jen
Sorry?
00:27:21
J Wow
I had some notion in my mind that the Borg Queens could travel in time, but I wasn't sure.
00:27:29
Jen
Possibly?
00:27:30
Red D
I don't know. so that's
00:27:34
Red D
But the the the kind of as the hillbillies, as you told them, they were against individualism.
00:27:39
Jen
I think they're called freedom fighters, guys.
00:27:41
J Wow
They were for individuals and they thought that Star Trek was the collective.
00:27:41
Red D
Oh, yes. Freedom of purchase. Thank you. Just for my clarity, they were against individualism for collects collectivism or?
00:27:50
J Wow
No, the hillbillies were in favour of individualism. There
00:27:55
Red D
yes. And they thought the government was enforcing the collectivism.
00:28:00
Jen
That was my take.
00:28:00
J Wow
you go. You guys don't need me. Colston Newcastle here.
00:28:04
Red D
No, no, I was just like because...
00:28:07
Jen
But yeah, and that's it. Well, that's, I'm going to, yeah, I'll i'll save what my point on it later.
00:28:15
Red D
They reminded me a little bit of, I guess, that people have gone even more extreme. I mean, everyone has to take everything to extreme to make themselves feel a bit special because it's all been done. But these people here, what are they called?
00:28:25
Red D
that say the government has no power over them. So when they pull the side, like white police, they're like, I don't have to speak to you. I don't have to show you my license. I don't, I'm not, I've opted out of the system. Like, well, then you have to opt out of the country because you, it's not how it's going to work.
00:28:38
Jen
Oh.
00:28:40
Red D
um What are they called? They have a name. No, no, it's way beyond that.
00:28:45
J Wow
Libertarians?
00:28:48
Red D
It's um no, no, wait that's ah quite a recent phenomenon, but it's just that,
00:28:48
J Wow
Anarcho-Libertarians?
00:28:53
Red D
very, I mean, maybe it's the same, but just they trying to push it to the extreme in the sense.
00:28:57
J Wow
Members of the Doge?
00:28:59
Red D
No, no, no. Um, uh, what's the, I'll look it up. Uh, well,
00:29:08
J Wow
Secessionists?
00:29:08
Jen
Oh, it's not like militia. They
00:29:10
Red D
no, no, no, no they I don't think they even want to do that.
00:29:13
Jen
want to go and build us their own government.
00:29:17
Red D
They just don't want to have to play by the rules of society when it's inconvenient to them.
00:29:23
J Wow
Oh, freeloaders.
00:29:25
Red D
No. Let's see if this is...
00:29:28
Jen
big typing, typing. turping
00:29:30
Red D
I mean, I'm having to like really... Oh yes, the sovereign citizens. That's what they're called.
00:29:35
Jen
Oh, I'm going to have to read up about that.
00:29:38
Red D
People who claim the US government has no authority of them and that they have opted out the legal system are defined as part of the sovereign citizen movement.
00:29:45
J Wow
is is When they say, so are we talking sort of First Nation people, for it instance, or are we talking...
00:29:50
Red D
No, just people who but don't want to, they just, they so somehow they've latched up to this idea that if they say they're a sovereign citizen, then that the government does they doesn't have to like, don't know, pay tax or a stop at a traffic stop or stuff like that. I mean, like, yeah.
00:30:06
Jen
They can kill who they want.
00:30:08
Red D
I don't think it's gone that far. They just more, the the examples I've normally seen or the few examples that I've seen are like, they'll have a sign on their window that says, I'm a sovereign citizen. I refuse to like show you my license and all this kind of, of I mean, maybe it's gone beyond that, but.
00:30:24
Jen
Huh. i mean after
00:30:25
J Wow
i mean in main
00:30:25
Red D
So they reminded me a little bit of sovereign citizens.
00:30:28
J Wow
yeah I mean, in many respects, you could say that the entire existence of the United States of America constitutes that. If you're looking from a very British-centric one of the 18th century, ah which isn't valid, but you could take that view if you decided to squint a little bit.
00:30:46
Red D
Yeah, think that, but I mean, they i guess people were went ahead and created their own new nation. I don't think there's any ambition to do that with the sovereign citizens, from what I could tell. I'm not an expert. They just briefly reminded me of somebody who's a
00:31:03
J Wow
so in the interest of testing it these these sovereign citizens do they have pseudo-religiosity and confirmation bias as well
00:31:13
Red D
I have no idea. Caroline What was the example of Caroline Miller,
00:31:15
J Wow
because they need it to be ah they need it to be criminals and villains at a level of you know these hillbillies that's all I'm saying
00:31:21
Red D
yeah.
00:31:23
Jen
Well, so I basically, i looked it in a slight, I got that whole reference to individualism versus collectivism throughout, um but I didn't really see the Borg foreshadowing element.
00:31:39
Jen
um I was just, I guess, looking at this this episode.
00:31:40
J Wow
Well, it might be all in my head.
00:31:42
Jen
um what So the things that i sort of saw it from was the like the conversation between Rain and Tom, where she talks about your mission, you care so much about something beyond your own life,
00:31:57
Jen
And she says, he says, is that so
Critique of Capitalism
00:31:59
Jen
unusual? And she says, yeah. And then the sort of freedom, fight gun and Starling and more, or Starling says something along lines of, why should I care about future lives?
00:32:08
Jen
um So I thought that they were trying to sort of have this whole didactic take on selfishness and destructiveness of, you know, capitalist ninety s l a you know, and you know, versus Starfleet, which is, you know, sort supposedly this,
00:32:11
Red D
Ah, yeah.
00:32:27
J Wow
individual.
00:32:27
Jen
collective of to be fair individuals but you know who work together for the good of well humanity i guess well not just humanity um but that's how i i saw it it felt like a bit like a teachable kind of episode of with that theme running throughout um and then like there's that whole moment between the freedom fighters and chakotay as well where chakotay is trying to reason with them and he's saying i was a freedom fighter too but you know
00:32:28
J Wow
I
00:32:34
J Wow
i think that's a profound point.
00:32:41
J Wow
Yeah. Hmm.
00:32:54
Jen
I realized violence isn't the way and I i grew or so, you know, I can't remember what says, but yeah, but sorry.
00:32:59
Red D
Yeah, that exactly.
00:33:02
Red D
He said that exactly almost. remember remember yeah
00:33:04
Jen
Oh, did he? Oh, well, good, well done, brain. Good, well done, well done. Do you know, I keep surprising myself lately, Red. Like i've I've always, just to deviate slightly for a second, I've always been terrible at crosswords.
00:33:16
Jen
And then Jamie was doing crossword last night and he's like, oh, Jenny, and so I can't figure this that one out. And I was like, well, what is it? I got i mean, I'm terrible, I won't get it. And I was like, oh my God, I know what it is.
00:33:27
Jen
And then, and then he gave me another one and I know what it is again. And I just couldn't believe, yeah, my my brain's on fire this week.
00:33:32
Red D
Oh my gosh!
00:33:35
Jen
I must use it while in the brief periods that it lasts.
00:33:38
Red D
Have you... um This is a bit of a tangent because I've only really tried to start doing it now recently. are you Have you started taking creatine by any chance?
00:33:47
Jen
No, maybe but, um oh, do you know what though?
00:33:47
J Wow
What?
00:33:49
Jen
I have been a little more, what's the word?
00:33:49
J Wow
Have you?
00:33:54
Jen
Well, clearly it's worn off already.
00:33:55
Red D
Focused?
00:33:56
Jen
and
00:33:57
Red D
What's the word? What's the word?
00:33:59
Jen
Like, I can't think of the word.
00:34:04
J Wow
ah hear your grace should cross you instead.
00:34:06
Jen
Strict, I'm going to use strict because can't think of the word.
00:34:08
Red D
Oh, yeah?
00:34:08
Jen
About taking my multivitamins every day. So maybe maybe it's that.
00:34:11
Red D
Oh.
00:34:14
Red D
Interesting.
00:34:15
Jen
um But yeah, it's interesting to hear the the other take on it because, yeah, but collectivism gone too far, I guess. There's a walk. either either one gone too far.
00:34:27
Jen
Hmm.
00:34:29
Red D
But I like that. I mean, I don't think I even picked this up, but there was, I guess, actually a very strong contrast between Tom doing something for the group And Starling just doing something for himself.
00:34:40
Jen
Hmm.
00:34:41
Red D
And they're both blonde. So that really helped strengthen that contrast.
00:34:43
Jen
that
00:34:44
J Wow
Let's just point out that therefore this entire episode is a foreshadowing of the Borg, and Tom is the Borg!
00:34:54
Jen
So I have taken two ah two comments, Red, and you have had none. So I think over to you Maybe you should do two in a row as well.
00:35:03
Red D
Okay, well, i would else most I have really, really lighthearted comments, but I don't know, but something about the way the doctor sprinted out of that car and ran across that plaza just made me laugh.
00:35:16
Red D
And is it anyone else thinking it was running funny or was it me?
00:35:19
J Wow
Not just you.
00:35:22
Jen
I did think there was something odd about that scene in the yeah
00:35:28
Red D
I can't tell he's trying to be funny because I'm like, we're so used to his like verbal comedy or his wit. And I was like, is he doing physical comedy here? Or am I just being judgmental?
00:35:38
Red D
I don't know.
00:35:39
Jen
yeah maybe he was trying it and it just didn't quite hit because yeah because you're not sure
00:35:44
Red D
Well, for me, I laughed. so buthearted I see any nodding coming from you guys. So...
00:35:51
Jen
no I don't think I found that oh I did find I remember thinking that was a little awkward that scene like the with the where people were going and like I think at one point um this is probably just me but well after he's ran him and Rain stop and when I first watched it I thought then he bends down and it's as if he's just staring at her boobs and and then I was like, what is going on? And then I realised his eyeline is there, but he's he's staring past her boobs to see if they're coming after them.
00:36:22
Jen
um I just thought the whole like set-up of the scene that was a little yeah of it weird and confused, but then I figured that was probably just me.
00:36:32
J Wow
I mean, can I just point out that that interpretation suffers under Occam's razor?
00:36:38
Jen
Oh, are you re-watching it?
00:36:40
J Wow
No, no, no, i'm I'm not rewatching it. I'm just saying that your explanation suffers under Occam's razor principle.
00:36:46
Red D
As in he was but the most likely explanation is that he was looking at her boobs.
00:36:51
J Wow
Simplest explanation is often the lightness.
00:36:51
Red D
ah
00:36:54
Jen
Oh well done Red.
00:36:54
J Wow
I'm not saying that, I'm just saying what I said.
00:36:55
Jen
i can i can you I can't what, yeah, sorry he's that okay noted. It could be.
00:37:03
Red D
I mean, this, not to be, you know, I always like to be nice about Star Trek, but this was like almost like some scenes in this episode are very outside the normal Star Trek stuff.
00:37:15
Red D
It was almost like a movie, but at Star Trek production level. So like, at Star Trek production level, it's good for Star Trek, but like that fight scene in the car, even that car chase scene.
00:37:27
Red D
So it was like fun for TV, but wouldn't hold up on the big screen, let's say.
00:37:31
Jen
Yeah.
00:37:32
Red D
if I can put it like that
00:37:34
Jen
Yeah. Maybe that's why it seemed weird and not quite fitting together. And I'm going to give you another...
00:37:43
Red D
oh yes sorry I was very pleased to hear that because after ah Rain is in the car with Starling because she was trying to entrap him and then he entraps her back um but Voyager is trying to ah transport Starling back to the
00:37:43
Jen
right and you
00:37:58
Red D
a shuttle or
Modern Dating and Ghosting
00:38:00
Red D
voyage, I'm not sure. So he gets teleported in front of her or transported in front her. What do we say? Transported. Wow. And so she was like, I've had guys disappear after first date, but I've never, one's actually disappeared in right in front of me. And I was like, oh, women have been ghosted since at least 90s LA. I'm going to come stay dating.
00:38:21
Red D
So...
00:38:22
J Wow
have Tom Paris and Voyager to blame for that vile phenomenon.
00:38:26
Red D
ah So i was like, oh, shame, but common experience we can relate. so
00:38:32
Jen
yeah I enjoyed all that stuff ah that she came out with that was culturally relevant I don't know
00:38:39
Red D
You're still as relevant to today as it was then.
00:38:44
Jen
Oh yeah, absolutely. Okay, I can't really remember where we are now, but I'm gonna go to, yeah, I'll go to me because I think Jamie and I have a similar number left.
00:38:58
Jen
So I'm rapidly running out. um Again, this is just like a bit of a random thought. So sorry guys, it's like zero structure or anything to this. Probably terribly boring, but I basically just realized that the one thing I do remember from our podcast on the first episode is is that I was discussing how what's the motivation for Starling continuing after Janeway's told him he's going to basically blow up the universe, including himself.
00:39:24
Jen
um What's the rationale for him just continuing? And he doesn't really give any in the in the part one. And I was thinking, is it just he's literally, he's just so egocentric. He just doesn't care. What the rationale? But actually, they do offer it.
00:39:41
Jen
um' they they do offer it a rationale in this episode he says that he doesn't believe her so i feel like okay now at least there is an explanation he's just he just doesn't believe her
00:39:54
Red D
And I think this it goes deeper than that, right? Because now that you're saying that, it's like, ah, because I was like, why does he just not believe her But he wants to go to the future to get technology to bring back to his time and so that he can carry on launching successful products. Because I guess at this stage, maybe he's modeled on like a, I wasn't sure, like a Steve Jobs...
00:40:15
Red D
ah Bill Gates. I don't know, because he was talking about he he made laptops and whatever, and the internet. um But in his mind, I guess because he's a paranoid, egocentric billionaire, he thinks that someone would want to stop him from doing that.
00:40:30
Red D
And that's why he doesn't believe Janeway. He assumes she's lying to stop him from achieving that goal instead of... Because I was like, why would he just not believe him? Like, oh, because he just is thinks everyone's out to stop him and the hold him back kind of thing.
00:40:42
Jen
Yeah.
00:40:44
Red D
or something like that. I mean, that's how I'm,
00:40:45
Jen
and It's a really good point actually. Yeah, there's the paranoia has got him got to it because he's he's had to be so isolated because he's has to protect himself and his billions from everyone else who must want them.
00:40:48
J Wow
It's difficult to
00:40:57
J Wow
Yep. I totally agree.
00:40:58
Jen
It's got to him.
00:40:59
J Wow
It must be difficult to maintain any ability to trust humans when you have that level of funding and that level of people wanting some of it.
00:41:09
Red D
Yeah, and also, I mean, beyond the, like, but I think it's more to do that, like, he's so set on his goal, and he thinks anyone trying to stand in his way is to stop him from achieving his goal, not protect him, or prevent harm coming to him.
00:41:09
Jen
Yeah.
00:41:14
J Wow
Hmm.
00:41:21
Red D
He can't see it that way.
00:41:23
J Wow
But that's rather the point that I'm engaging with, that like that the phenomena you've described likely comes from the one that I described.
00:41:30
Red D
Yeah, yeah, i think they're related, but but but yeah, yeah, I just don't think it was... no one's He's not going to lose money by not doing anything. He's got tons of money. by tom
00:41:41
J Wow
I don't know. he He's only got 10 more computer revolutions to to drive.
00:41:47
Red D
But then I say that, really don't understand, where people are like, or like bajillions of money. They're like, oh I'm giving £20,000 to this, whatever. I'm like, £20,000?
00:41:56
Red D
Can't give more?
00:41:56
J Wow
Mm-hmm.
00:41:57
Red D
But maybe if I had bajillions, I I would...
00:41:58
Jen
What's the percentage? yeah What percentage is that of your millions?
00:42:02
Red D
Or they're like, no, you could just solve that problem with money. I mean, I'm not saying... Never mind. But I'm just like, sometimes I don't quite understand how people manage money when they have a lot of it.
00:42:13
Jen
Fortunately, don't have that problem.
00:42:16
Red D
No, I don't have that problem. Clearly.
00:42:18
Jen
Luckily, there's a religion which maybe you one of you two can remember, ah it might be Islam, which I remember thinking, oh, that's such a lovely aspect of that particular religion, where there's a certain percentage, and it is a percentage that's like sort of recommended by the the elders in the religion that if you're a member of that religion, you give to charities and worthwhile causes.
00:42:42
Red D
Yes, I think that's called Zakat or something. or Because when I was working in the Middle East, this kept cut I kept getting ads for um like, that yeah, it is Zakat.
00:42:46
Jen
Oh.
00:42:55
J Wow
so zakat is one of the five pillars of islam which is an obligatory form of charity whereas sadhaka refers to voluntary charity
00:43:04
Red D
I mean, and in Christianity, I think, well, different churches are different, but i think you're supposed to give away 10% or tithe, tend they have tithe, the concepts of tithing.
00:43:13
Jen
Oh, didn't realise they had in Christianity as well. I just like the idea that there's a like recommended percentage. like you it It feels like it makes it fair. you know and um And it's also, I think, something about um not just that it makes it fairer, but that um in in theory, good giving is good for you, right?
00:43:31
Jen
like it It connects you to communities and makes you feel good about yourself and it makes you actively think about others differently.
00:43:33
Red D
Yeah.
00:43:42
Jen
So um being having to put particular amount that is substantial and not just like a right tick that box just seems like a really good idea to me.
00:43:56
Red D
Yeah, I mean, I think you're pretty good at your managing your charitable donations, Jenny.
00:44:00
Jen
No, I'm feeling bad now as I speak because I have not put mine up in on a long time. So I think I'd better go do that after this podcast.
00:44:07
Red D
ha
00:44:08
Jen
And I found out, i this was years ago now, i was giving to a charity will name nameless um and then i got this story came out about it and it was just awful pra like really bad story and i had to immediately change who i was giving money to but it's difficult though isn't it because how do you know
00:44:29
Red D
It is difficult. Yeah. Well, there are people involved in charities. and So they're not, they're not
00:44:35
Jen
exactly that was yeah it was that kind of thing like turns out there were some really awful people who were
00:44:41
Red D
Yeah.
00:44:42
Jen
this money was going to. and Oh, it's tricky.
00:44:47
Red D
It is tricky. It's almost like, well, this is a whole other other conversation. No, there's probably no. But I guess in the olden days, like ah medieval England, I guess people, maybe were they tithing or rich people giving to the church and then the church managed like alms for the poor or like, and then eventually ran schools and stuff like that.
00:45:06
J Wow
Hmm.
00:45:07
Red D
But aye local.
00:45:07
Jen
It was local as well, so you could see where it was going.
00:45:10
J Wow
Agreed. All sort of died around the time of Henry VIII there.
00:45:14
Jen
Maybe we should reinstigate local, local charitable gimmick for everyone, enforced collectivism.
00:45:19
J Wow
Hmm.
00:45:20
Red D
Yeah.
00:45:22
Red D
Well, if you going to give the, you can see it like right there where, you know, it's happening, I guess.
00:45:23
Jen
Very popular.
00:45:25
J Wow
Hmm.
00:45:27
Red D
That's the nice bit about that. I think it's really cool.
00:45:28
Jen
Yeah. Yeah, you do.
00:45:30
Red D
Okay. Where were we Jenny?
00:45:32
Jen
Yes, so, I'm just deep in thought after these very philosophical, morality-based discussions.
00:45:32
Red D
Sorry, our boss track.
00:45:40
J Wow
Yeah, we got deeper this one than we expected.
00:45:40
Jen
But now we are going to, huh?
00:45:44
J Wow
We got deeper this episode than we expected.
00:45:46
Jen
We have, yeah, considering the episode itself, which is quite like, um and don't know, a bit silly. and it It's okay, I've got a really trivial one for my last one.
00:45:54
Red D
Yes, considering the level of my comments, i have to say I didn't contribute that to the deepness.
00:46:03
Jen
six Jamie, on to you.
00:46:06
J Wow
I mean, I i just...
00:46:11
J Wow
I found a degree degree degree of contrast in the fact that whilst the episode gives the Doctor one of the things he desires most, the ability to move, it also manages to touch on one of my most deeply held nightmares, ah but in such a way as to make me think the Doctor has absolute balls. but effectively He's faced with a situation, um and I hate this, where he is functionally immortal, cannot be killed, but is basically hurt, and can be hurt at the discretion of the individual who is holding him.
00:46:43
J Wow
And I just... That would give me the absolute willies, that situation. And I'm... Yeah. wo i
00:46:51
Jen
is terrifying that yeah but also as someone as a as a being who has never experienced pain and doesn't think they can and then have that suddenly thrust upon them
00:46:53
J Wow
It really, really did touch on an existential angst of mine.
00:46:58
Red D
Oh.
00:47:01
J Wow
yeah yeah yeah because he's always wanted to be more human and feel but then he's introduced to it in this horrible horrible way
00:47:12
Jen
Yeah. And the panic, you imagine the panic that, oh my God, I am experiencing it. I can experiencing it. And it's in at the hands of this person who is in total control of me right now. Um, having all, all your existence thought you can't experience it. Like, yeah, I totally agree. That's a real chilling moment.
00:47:33
Red D
Yeah, I felt, ah well it was awful when you realize what's happening to the doctor. and That guy is so sadistic. I mean, even though he's, yeah, it was very, like, I mean, I guess it was that supposed to be, what's the right word? But yeah, he was very sadistic and it was very awful to watch. But I think, I didn't realize about your point, that made me realize that, like, I guess in terms of writing an episode, which is sometimes how I think about this, because, you know, I like to write my little sitcoms on the side. Yeah.
00:48:03
Red D
is the doctor had to earn that ability to leave the sick bay. Like he didn't just, in a sense, like they didn't just give it to him for free. Like the guy just gave, you know, he somehow got the teleporter.
00:48:13
Red D
He had to go through something pretty bad, but then he kind of, in a sense, I don't mean like earned, like he had to do it, but in storytelling, he earned the, the, the mobile, like a, like transmitter, whatever, because he went through that really awful experience.
00:48:22
Jen
Yeah.
00:48:29
Jen
Yeah, it was his, know what you mean, Red, it was like a, it's one of the formula, isn't it? Like that they, oh my goodness, guys, i have just realized I had like a really right at the top of my list
00:48:35
Red D
yeah
00:48:44
Jen
point and I accidentally skipped it um because it was about this
00:48:47
J Wow
What?
The Doctor's Mobility and Character Growth
00:48:49
Jen
and like basically I wrote um my favorite moment of the entire two-part episode and then I skipped it so yeah I'm just going say it because it ties in into what we're talking about that it's a big moment and I love this because this is when the doc gets his mobile emitter and he can leave the sick bay and it opens up all these wonderful future episodes and comedy
00:48:49
Red D
oh we'll break it back
00:49:13
Red D
Yeah, it's huge. It's huge. i mean, again, reinforcing a little bit like why he had to earn it. Why he had to kind go through that baptism of fire or pain. Well, yeah, literally be fire. Because the guy said, this is what someone who's on fire would experience.
00:49:27
Jen
Oh, horrible.
00:49:28
Red D
But yes, it's i well it is very exciting because now you know that all the fun things that are going to come up.
00:49:32
J Wow
Hmm.
00:49:34
Jen
Yeah. And it wouldn't have been the same if he just, you know, got it at the second episode. Yeah.
00:49:39
J Wow
Yeah, well, at least he had some experience with, you know, the Valkyries before he got out and about.
00:49:40
Red D
Yeah, that's really true.
00:49:48
Red D
Now Jamie's gonna have to explain that reference for for us. I think we had Jenny.
00:49:50
J Wow
You know that one of his first experiences outside of Sickbay is when he gets projected into the holodecks, into program is living the saga of Beowulf.
00:50:00
Red D
Oh yes. Beowulf.
00:50:03
Jen
Oh, oh yeah.
00:50:04
J Wow
We both know that very well because we did that on a podcast two seasons ago.
00:50:05
Red D
Yes.
00:50:06
Jen
And he's the hero.
00:50:06
Red D
Well remembered.
00:50:10
Red D
Yes.
00:50:11
Jen
Yeah.
00:50:12
Red D
Well remembered Jamie.
00:50:14
Jen
Yeah. That's a good one. Okay. So I can't remember where are. Are we red? I think we're on you again. yeah
00:50:24
Red D
Okay, well, I will go with you because my points are very small, but I did really love the line Janeway had. It was very 90s and many other decades since then, but when um she has got Starling on the Voyager behind the force field and she thinks he's she's got him and she's going to put an end to his plan to go retrieve this technology from the 29th century and she's like,
00:50:49
Red D
Chrono Works stock is about to crash, which I really enjoyed.
00:50:52
Jen
Nice.
00:50:52
J Wow
Yeah.
00:50:55
Red D
Her delivery was obviously much better than mine, but I enjoyed that line.
00:50:55
Jen
Yeah.
00:50:57
J Wow
Yeah.
00:50:58
Jen
Not at all. You're right. That is such a 90s cheese line. Love it.
00:51:03
Red D
oh
00:51:05
Jen
Excellent. And you don't you would you like another opportunity, Red? Because I think you've got some more.
00:51:09
Red D
Yeah. Well, I really only have, I mean, the others are just minor, but I do want to give, maybe he'll even be my star player. That's a lot of, for well, but of foreshadowing slash giving it away, but Starling really had a very dedicated goon.
00:51:24
Red D
I mean, he gets transported or teleported away. He somehow uses the um the timeship to get him back. He carries on his plan regardless of whether the Starling is around or not. He's diverting the Voyager crew with a fake uh, starship out into the, um, the desert where he eventually loses his life because he gets shot by like, uh, and this goon and I want to mention him by name.
00:51:45
J Wow
Mm-hmm.
00:51:45
Jen
you Poor Goon.
00:51:51
Red D
I wrote down his name out of respect, which was Mr. Dunbar. He really was very dedicated.
00:51:57
J Wow
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
00:51:58
Jen
It's a really good point. i especially I did think that, especially at that moment when he gets transported back to Earth, because um you have to be really committed as a Goon, I think, once your boss has been taken taken captive and you could just walk away to say, no, I'm going to...
00:52:04
J Wow
No,
00:52:09
Red D
Yeah.
00:52:09
J Wow
no.
00:52:13
Red D
Yes.
00:52:14
J Wow
yeah
00:52:15
Jen
Carry on. Well done.
00:52:17
Red D
ay I guess he was committed to something beyond just his own life. And a weird way. I mean. Yeah.
00:52:23
Jen
Yeah, he must, maybe he got a really good life on this darling.
00:52:25
J Wow
I mean, mate do do we reckon you have life insurance? You know, a plan?
00:52:30
Jen
Maybe he had ah a needy family and life insurance and he could be a really moral goon, you know, like.
00:52:30
Red D
Yeah.
00:52:33
J Wow
Yeah. This is just...
00:52:38
J Wow
Just bring me back to Austin Powers 2 where Austin Powers' dad, Michael Caine's character, puts a goon down by going up him and saying, listen son, you don't stand a chance, you don't even have a name badge, do you know how many nameless goons I've put down?
00:52:41
Jen
Oh, yeah.
00:52:52
J Wow
Come why don't you just lie down here and wait here until we're done and the goon just lies down? I feel like this is the opposite of that.
00:52:59
Red D
Oh
00:52:59
Jen
Oh, goodness, that is such a great scene. But actually thought you going to talk about another Austin Powers moment where one of the goons get gets killed. And then, God, that's such a great word, goon.
00:53:11
Red D
yes!
00:53:11
Jen
It gets killed. And then there's multitude of scenes that follow it where um you know his wife gets told he's died.
00:53:17
J Wow
It's a grieving family.
00:53:18
Red D
Oh yes!
00:53:19
Jen
And then his little 10-year-old son.
00:53:19
J Wow
Yeah, yeah.
00:53:21
Jen
And then all his friends at the local pub. It's this really upsetting series.
00:53:25
J Wow
It's like, we never expected him to have a violent death working for Dr. Evil World Takeover, Inc.
00:53:33
Jen
Oh dear. Okay, great. I will do my last point then, which I think has a lot of reference to your point earlier about Rain being ghosted, Red.
00:53:45
Jen
um I'm just, it's quite something to behold Rain's persistence um in the face of a hard no from Tom about dating.
00:53:45
Red D
Yes.
00:53:54
Jen
there There was so much and zero embarrassment.
00:53:58
J Wow
assistant or creepy?
00:53:58
Jen
He was like, no. And she's like, oh, okay, but really you want to date? And he's like, no. She says, oh, but, but you know, we could go here. um so slightly scary intensity levels, but also um yeah, like gold stars for persistence.
00:54:11
Red D
Girl stars before persistence, but I'm going to swear now. Well, no, won't swear in case there's a child listening. But on the Office Ladies podcast, every now and again, one of the hosts like calls a BS card about the office, like something that like maybe a plot hole or like a character doing something that they think is a bit out of like scope for character. And they do it about their own show, so I feel like I can do it here.
00:54:35
Red D
She doesn't she think he's like from a spaceship and is going leave Earth. So why does she think he's available to date? I'm so confused.
00:54:43
Jen
It's a really good point, yeah.
00:54:45
Red D
Because
00:54:45
Jen
I've got to say that did confuse me as well.
00:54:48
Red D
like, why is she being so persistent? And why doesn't he just say I'm not going to be here? He doesn't have to say I'm going back to the 24th century, but I don't know.
00:54:58
Jen
I wonder if maybe she doesn't realize quite realise what's going on. like Maybe she thinks he's part of you know the X-Files team or something, you know and he's in contact with the starship that she's...
00:55:08
Red D
That's true. That's true.
00:55:11
Jen
that he's a secret agent on earth or something. But no, I definitely had that moment as well. i was like, this is weird for several reasons. um
00:55:19
Red D
Yeah, that's true. But love have confidence, for sure.
00:55:23
Jen
Yeah, she's like, she has zero, what's the thing, rejection ah sensitivity. She's just yeah like, I will continue.
00:55:29
Red D
No.
00:55:32
Red D
ah
00:55:34
Jen
So Jamie, last last point or couple of points?
00:55:43
J Wow
So I actually think that I had exhausted mine. it it was I found it a tough one to mine, actually.
00:55:53
Jen
That is okay. Got ready?
00:55:58
Red D
Okay. No, I thought you came up with amazing points, Jamie. I was like, I was like, Tuvok was holding fast food.
00:56:01
Jen
Yeah.
00:56:01
J Wow
Just not many of them, that's the problem.
00:56:08
Jen
I think we all have fantastic points.
00:56:10
Red D
I'm sorry. This is a minor one. Maybe I'll combine two. But when Jamie said, there's a small a minor, small airfield 10 kilometers ahead of you. 10 kilometers? They don't use kilometers.
00:56:24
Red D
they use kilometers in space? or But it's an American show.
00:56:26
J Wow
Yeah. Yep.
00:56:27
Red D
Do they normally say miles or kilometers? Has it been so long since I watched that I was like...
00:56:33
J Wow
I think, you know, I mean, they couldn't use light years or indeed light fractions of a second because that would be a ridiculous quantity of it's a 60th of a light second away from you or a 60 to the power of 600th of a light second away from you.
00:56:35
Jen
have no idea.
00:56:37
Red D
Yes.
00:56:44
Red D
Well...
00:56:49
Red D
As a South African, and was I was very happy to hear kilometers on a TV show that was not made in South Africa. yeah, that's
00:56:56
Jen
What I've always found weird is, again, this is massive, dd it's not even Voyager related, but the inconsistency, consistency with which we use you know kilometers versus miles in the uk like you know if you're doing a run it's like a 5k run going on the rowing machine it's you know 2k um but then we're also like oh i'm just going you know two miles for a two mile walk and it's weird i mean yeah i i like i kind of like it but you know it does you know distress my um
00:57:13
Red D
true. That's true.
00:57:13
J Wow
Hmm.
00:57:16
Red D
that's true
00:57:23
J Wow
na
00:57:24
Red D
the similar activities maybe that's why I'm now totally confused and why I had a reaction to them even seeing 10 kilometers in the episode
00:57:35
Jen
Yeah, we brought you over here and confused me with our weird British idiosyncrasies.
00:57:37
Red D
ah
00:57:38
J Wow
this
00:57:41
Jen
Okay.
00:57:41
Red D
um
00:57:43
Jen
Sorry, go on.
00:57:43
Red D
so I have my final point sorry I'll just quickly which was ah did anyone else experience this when Starling launched the spaceship out of the
00:57:44
Jen
Ah, yes.
00:57:51
Red D
like top floor of his building or like you know near the top of his building did anyone want have a flashback to charlie and the chocolate factory was that just me okay workings ah
00:57:59
J Wow
yes
00:57:59
Jen
Oh, yeah. No, not at the time, but I can totally see it.
00:58:02
J Wow
not Not to the program, but to work experience.
00:58:08
Red D
so yes because they're in a lift right and then it smashes out of the top of the building um and they fun
00:58:12
Jen
Yeah, it's exactly like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. I'm surprised, yeah, it didn't appear to be. Okay, themes.
00:58:22
Jen
I'm the only one who has put themes down.
00:58:23
J Wow
Individuality and the collective.
00:58:25
Red D
Yeah, you guys really dug that theme.
00:58:27
J Wow
we did themes. ah
00:58:28
Red D
I mean, as in identify that theme.
00:58:28
Jen
We did.
00:58:30
Red D
I totally missed it, really.
00:58:35
Jen
Individualism, and practice and advances in technology and time travel. yeah Anything else?
00:58:43
J Wow
The blindness ego.
00:58:43
Red D
Yeah, I think. for Sorry, say that again, Jamie.
00:58:47
J Wow
The blindness of ego.
00:58:49
Red D
Yeah, good one.
00:58:53
Red D
I feel like I treated this more like a action movie made for TV. then But there were a lot of themes for sure.
00:59:01
J Wow
The value of cross-culturalism.
00:59:04
Red D
I have a theme. Which was meeting the one but it's not the right time or place. Like lost love.
00:59:09
Jen
Oh, yeah.
00:59:10
J Wow
Oh...
00:59:11
Red D
no
00:59:13
J Wow
I don't think they'd have made it.
00:59:13
Red D
They work maybe not forever but they were very cute and they have chemistry.
00:59:18
Jen
Yeah, I think that was a pretty good plot that little thing between Tom Rain. and So in fact, I'm going to go on star player and because I almost never ever choose someone not from the crew.
00:59:33
Jen
And so this time I actually am going to. so I do think the lady, Rain, I did really enjoy her character. And as you say, ri I think she had like a nice chemistry with Tom.
00:59:41
Red D
nice
00:59:44
Jen
And she's quite funny as well. And yeah, I think she was pretty good in this. What about you guys?
00:59:50
Red D
yes she was great I've already said my star player I'm going to stick to the goon for his dedication to his boss's cause and saving Starling's life well no not saving his life but returning him to earth
00:59:51
Jen
Stop there.
01:00:04
Red D
ah
01:00:04
Jen
Love it.
01:00:06
J Wow
I am going to go with the hobo version of the time-travelling captain as by hanging on as long as he does he provides information that helps Voyager to resolve the situation and save billions of lives.
01:00:11
Jen
yeah
01:00:19
Red D
is that those telematics scratched on that dirty piece of paper?
01:00:21
J Wow
Yep. Yep. You know, ah on under the bits that were scratched for the end of days.
01:00:28
Red D
Oh, good, good choices.
01:00:32
Jen
and that's it guys that's all folks except the jingle
01:00:34
J Wow
Boom.
01:00:36
Red D
Okay, let me find the right jingle. Bringing it in on our, well done Jenny.
01:00:41
Jen
and oh yes that was a good time wasn't it and i have some very exciting news for you guys the next time we podcast it will not be this episode It will not be LA in the 90s.
01:00:55
Red D
ah I do want to go to LA, but yes.
01:00:58
J Wow
I do want to go to.
01:01:01
Jen
Oh, Jamie, we can't hear you with the musical.
01:01:03
J Wow
I too want to go to l LA in the 90s and yet...
01:01:07
Red D
We can't. Sad times.
01:01:11
Jen
and think that's everything.
01:01:11
Red D
Okay.
01:01:12
Jen
So thanks, guys.
01:01:13
Red D
That's everything. I'm going to hit stop. Thanks, everybody.
01:01:15
Jen
Bye.
01:01:17
Red D
Bye, Papa.