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We watch "Macrocosm" (S3 Ep.12)
15 Plays1 day ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Macrocosm", in which many people's worst nightmare actually comes true: Giant Germs. Eek!
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Theme music by Alain D
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Humor at Jenny's Workplace
00:00:00
Red D
one of them is
00:00:00
Jamie
I'm just going to reiterate my comment in the chat. Toxic masculinity FTW.
00:00:05
Red D
And Tha Purge.
00:00:10
Jamie
Oh, that purge. I was describing Jenny's workplace.
00:00:15
Jen
What was the description?
00:00:18
Red D
Tha Purge.
00:00:21
Jen
the the purge.
00:00:23
Red D
But Jamie spells it T-H-A-T-R-G-E.
00:00:23
Jen
better
00:00:27
Red D
That's why I'm pronouncing for the expression.
00:00:28
Jen
It's real, I'm very confused by the spelling. Oh, like the movie. Not that I've seen the movie, but I've heard things.
00:00:32
Red D
I don't know if you see the movies, but think we get the gist.
00:00:35
Jamie
Look team, I'm here trying to give a bit street cred to this podcast and make it, you know, touch on the deep gangster roots of Star Trek.
Street Cred and Gangster Themes in Star Trek
00:00:43
Jamie
And here you mob are taking the piss out of me for bringing such elements as the purge badly spelled in the endowment.
00:00:49
Jamie
I'm just saying, if we can't get behind in this, we're never going to get any credibility.
00:00:53
Red D
Yes. Well, Jamie, I have been planning on asking you what TV shows, sci-fi shows, horror films, this episode of Star Trek reminded you of because I'm sure there are lot of references that I do not get.
00:01:05
Red D
So I...
00:01:05
Jamie
I mean, can. just never really feel Star Trek does that well when it's pastiching the grimdark...
00:01:20
Jamie
No, that was it.
00:01:20
Red D
You've got to finish that one.
00:01:21
Jamie
I wasn't gonna have for you guys.
00:01:21
Jen
chill.
00:01:23
Red D
That was good timing, Jamie. That was end of the jingle.
00:01:26
Jen
I'm quite relieved that the jingle's end to be honest because I was struggling to for some reason this week hear Jamie over the jingle which is a loud jingle.
00:01:33
Red D
No, it was quite loud.
00:01:33
Jamie
Really? Gosh.
00:01:34
Red D
hope hope the voice mixing, sound mixing, fixes all that in the post-production. But I was also struggling.
00:01:41
Jen
No editing.
00:01:42
Red D
Oh no!
00:01:42
Jen
Oh I was going by.
00:01:43
Jamie
It's back! Yes! More jingle! More jingle!
00:01:47
Red D
It's gone, it's gone.
00:01:48
Jen
You can truly tell you're on no edit.
00:01:48
Jamie
Red, are you listening to a recording of the podcast while recording the podcast? Because that's pretty meta.
00:01:54
Red D
That's very meta and I think my brain would explode, so no.
00:01:57
Jen
I think that the jingle was upset that we were, you know, dissing it. And so it felt like it had to come back and have a final say.
00:02:03
Jamie
since this this this
00:02:04
Red D
But yeah, Jingle has some emotions.
00:02:06
Jamie
is
00:02:08
Jen
Don't personify the jingle.
Enthusiastic Start to 'Macrogosm' Discussion
00:02:10
Red D
Yay.
00:02:12
Jen
um So this week we are discussing season three, episode 12, Macrogosm. And I'm very excited because I like this one. And I remember that I know that I say the title and I know exactly which one it was before I started watching.
00:02:24
Jamie
Yeah, yeah
00:02:28
Jen
I really like this one. So Jay, you want to start with the one minute summary?
00:02:36
Jamie
in a complete instance of the universe reversing in on itself, While the Captain and Neelix return from engaging with some of the most interpretative emo dance aliens imaginable, the Taktak, they return to a ship that resembles little more than a space Marie Celeste.
00:03:06
Jamie
They investigate and come across all the horrors of the Macrobiotic.
00:03:14
Jamie
zi
00:03:14
Red D
Very
Historical Context: Marie Celeste Comparison
00:03:15
Red D
nice. as does Is Marie Celeste another word for ghost town?
00:03:19
Jamie
it's you Oh, have you never heard of the Marie Soleste?
00:03:22
Red D
Is it a ship that was found deserted in like 1770 or something?
00:03:25
Jamie
A ghost ship, Red. A ghost ship. You can't just say was found deserted like as's nothing when we're talking about this episode.
00:03:28
Red D
Okay. Okay.
00:03:32
Jamie
It might have been, you know, full of a macrobiotic alien virus that destroyed the crew, which was only stopped from destroying the rest of the Earth by the heroic sacrifice of, i don't know, Henry VIII's beard.
00:03:46
Jamie
It might have been.
00:03:47
Red D
I just wanted to translate for those of us who don't know that reference directly, but I think it made sense.
00:03:47
Jamie
one thing
00:03:52
Jamie
Everyone knows that reference directly. No plebeians listen to this podcast.
00:03:58
Red D
Hey, we have a varied geographic audience according to the stats I was saying.
00:04:02
Jamie
Yeah, geographically varied, not socioeconomically varied, said he in the voice of a gammon.
00:04:03
Red D
Ah.
00:04:03
Jen
Oh, wow. There's no sense of knowing what I read.
00:04:08
Jamie
No, you're quite right. So the Marie Celeste was ship ship. which was found floating deserted in the ah period I think, Henry the the Rain, I should say, of I believe, Henry VIII.
00:04:23
Jamie
And it was the second ship in the fleet of memory serves. And it was a great mystery as to how a ship had just been entirely deserted by its crew.
00:04:32
Red D
ah But like the MH370.
00:04:34
Jen
Mm, 317. Mm.
00:04:35
Red D
That
00:04:36
Jen
Mm.
00:04:37
Jamie
And the SS SS.
00:04:40
Red D
so one I don't know, but yeah.
00:04:43
Jen
Well, that was very helpful because I was just assuming what the Marie Celeste was from context because I did not know about that. I like it.
00:04:50
Jamie
Hmm.
00:04:50
Jen
Thank you, Jamie.
Initial Reactions and Critiques of 'Macrogosm'
00:04:52
Jen
So initial reactions.
00:04:52
Jamie
That's a good one.
00:04:55
Jen
I'm the only one to have written something.
00:04:58
Red D
I like to leave my initial reactions for an initial live reaction.
00:04:58
Jen
terribly miss
00:05:02
Jen
Oh, great.
00:05:02
Jamie
It's not.
00:05:03
Jen
I fully approve.
00:05:04
Red D
Sometimes I do.
00:05:05
Jen
Yeah.
00:05:05
Jamie
Hmm.
00:05:05
Red D
Well, I guess just, just to put hold up a mirror or be in contrast to your reaction. I did not remember this for quite a long time, but it's not to say I didn't enjoy it, but i was like, is this like a, is that two parts episode, which is like the year of hell or something?
00:05:22
Red D
Um, you know, that one i was like, is this that, uh, so I was a bit, it didn't come back to me immediately.
00:05:24
Jen
yeah
00:05:28
Red D
But I did enjoy it. So yeah, I guess that was my next reaction. Sorry, Jamie. over d
00:05:38
Jen
What about you, Jay?
00:05:41
Jamie
So as mentioned, I never really think that Star Trek does particularly well trying to embrace the grimdark and I'm not um not a thousand percent sure that this one landed for me. um I just sort of found the floating blobs a little bit, you know.
00:05:59
Jamie
How should we put this? Non-convincing.
00:06:03
Jen
and
00:06:03
Jamie
ah um
00:06:05
Red D
Jamie, this episode was filmed like 20 years ago. Doesn't that give it a bit of a grace?
00:06:08
Jamie
Red Dwarf still managed to be convincing all that time ago.
00:06:11
Red D
Wow.
00:06:12
Jamie
um and yeah, and there's sort of like elements of, oh, but we're magically saved at the end, which was a bit like this. Doesn't really mesh with the the slightly gritty feel of the entire thing.
00:06:27
Jen
Magic? No, it was like medical sci-fi. See, and this
00:06:32
Jamie
magic.
00:06:34
Jen
this is a this is what why is this leads on nicely to my initial reaction was that, oh, I like this. It's one of my favorites. But I think that's understandable because it's it's got a little bit of sort of medical disease, disease life cycle, epidemics, treatment kind of element to it, which I always find kind interesting.
00:06:43
Jamie
Hmm.
00:06:45
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm.
00:06:56
Red D
Yes, you're our resident ah medical medical expert, so it makes sense that you would like this one.
00:07:02
Jen
It's very worrying that that you would think of me in that way. I have no medical training.
00:07:06
Red D
I think in the context of the three of us, you're definitely the resident.
00:07:09
Jen
Okay, good. just It needs that clarifying factor. you
00:07:12
Red D
In the context of many other people as well, so yeah.
00:07:17
Jen
um Yeah, for me also, as well as the medical stuff, you get Tomb Raider Janeway.
00:07:23
Red D
Yes.
00:07:24
Jen
think she looks hot. Or not just hot, I think she looks tough, which like.
00:07:29
Red D
Yeah, we get to see her biceps.
00:07:30
Jamie
Tomb Raider or Sigourney Weaver from Alien pastiche?
00:07:35
Jen
Yeah, I think definitely that element too, but for me it's more of a Tomb Raider kind of.
Character Comparisons: Janeway, Lara Croft, and Ripley
00:07:41
Red D
Okay, so now my homework for the weekend or the next few weeks is to watch.
00:07:41
Jen
It's too much.
00:07:46
Red D
Oh, I'm getting bit of an epic guy. Maybe I'll my head on.
00:07:52
Red D
Is to watch Tomb Raider and Alien, which I've never seen. which I don't want anyone to understand about.
00:07:57
Jamie
You've never seen Aliens?
00:07:59
Red D
So let's just move on from that quickly, please.
00:08:01
Jamie
Wait, you've never seen... Wait, which is more shocking? You've never seen Tomb Raider if you've never seen Alien.
00:08:05
Red D
I mean, I played the little video game Tomb Raider, but yeah.
00:08:09
Jamie
I suppose you want a teenage boy so you can be forgiven for not going and watching it as well.
00:08:13
Red D
Well, I just didn't watch a lot of movies and I still haven't watched lot of movies, I guess.
00:08:18
Jen
I mean, I'm not sure Tomb Raider is that fantastic, really. I mean, um I prefer the Janeway version of it, personally.
00:08:23
Jamie
Hmm.
00:08:27
Jamie
Hmm.
00:08:29
Jen
There we are. Cool. So noticed we have one cool thing from someone.
00:08:34
Red D
I do want to watch it. Yeah, can you hear me? There is an echo. What's going on? do want watch
00:08:44
Jen
What's happening? Red, can you hear us?
00:08:46
Red D
yeah can hear me
00:08:47
Jen
I can hear you. Yes, good.
00:08:48
Jamie
Just an echo though.
00:08:49
Red D
there is an echo what's going on
00:08:51
Jen
Oh, I can put headphones on if needed. i just need to run together.
00:08:54
Jamie
Well, I don't know if it is red and now it seems to have gone, so maybe some sound damping has happened. Or you're on mute. Say something.
00:09:01
Red D
I muted myself, but I think it's kind of maybe everything sorted out itself out now.
00:09:06
Jamie
How un-life-like.
Stardates Appreciation
00:09:07
Jen
Okay, let me know if it happens again. I'm running out headphones in this, you know, very professional of podcasts.
00:09:14
Jamie
Hey, we're pros.
00:09:14
Jen
o
00:09:15
Jamie
We can get the job done.
00:09:17
Jen
So I was saying someone's got one cool thing to say. Who is it? is anyone going to own up?
00:09:24
Red D
Oh yeah. Oh yes, oh my god, because this was like two weeks ago when I set this up, sorry, and then we postponed, I was like, someone has a cool thing.
00:09:33
Jen
i was thinking I'd have to read out. No, I didn't.
00:09:35
Red D
I was like, oh yes, I remember writing this. You know how I complain all the time about how I don't understand star dates and all this kind of stuff, and like I think they just kind of 400.
00:09:43
Jamie
How do you not understand Stargate, dude? That's like, you know, anything Stardates?
00:09:45
Red D
Star dates, star dates. and like but i didn't realize on the wikipedia page each episode has the star date of when the episode is happening which i think is quite a cool i even though i look on that wikipedia page every time i set up an episode i just notice it for the first time so yeah it's like so this was star date uh 50165.2
00:09:48
Jen
I'm like, I don't know. Even
00:09:55
Jamie
Hmm...
00:09:56
Jen
though we don't know if it could be a patient.
00:10:02
Jamie
That is hysterical. Seriously.
00:10:09
Jen
I'm going to. I mean, I love that. i But I also don't understand the dates. So that's no meaning for me. I don't have to learn how the dates...
00:10:19
Red D
Yeah, I mean, now that I'm like, I've noticed that I'm like, maybe i can pay more attention each episode that I look at and then I'll kind of absorb what that means. But I also don't know what it means yet. But yeah, it's on the Wikipedia page.
00:10:30
Jen
This is true.
00:10:31
Jamie
Mm-hmm.
00:10:32
Jen
That's a good idea. Maybe I'll try and do that as well.
00:10:34
Red D
Mm-hmm.
00:10:35
Jen
I'm always wishing that there were more regular, like, allusions to... well how much time they've been stuck in the Delta Coral. I'm always wondering and how long they've been now and how long they've been now. And they don't tell you that often.
00:10:48
Red D
That's true. They could have had it at the start of the episode. like I guess... I mean, are you supposed to believe it's one week later every time? Is that how TV was supposed to be? Or... Because sometimes I feel like it's more time has passed.
00:10:59
Jen
Exactly.
00:11:00
Jen
Yeah. I never knew exactly if it was supposed to be one week later or not.
00:11:00
Red D
So...
00:11:07
Jen
Anywho, that is a very Cool, one cool thing Red. Thank you for that. So shall we go backwards?
00:11:18
Jen
Go backwards. So come up Red goes first.
00:11:19
Jamie
Oh gosh.
00:11:21
Red D
Okay, I mean, by going backwards, we risk, so like, triggering a inter-podcast war.
00:11:28
Jamie
We might need to reboot each of our individual you know microchips and we can't handle this.
00:11:34
Red D
um But in the opening scene, we had, I guess, Neelix and Janeway returning from some kind of away mission with a tuk-tuk, which reminds me of TikTok, but that's a separate
00:11:41
Jamie
Hmm.
Neelix's Dialogue and Promotion to Ambassador
00:11:45
Red D
thing.
00:11:45
Red D
um And it turns out, like, Janeway obviously unintentionally and offended someone by adopting the power pose.
00:11:45
Jen
I
00:11:45
Jamie
Hmm.
00:11:51
Jen
don't know I'm going to put it up.
00:11:51
Jamie
Yes. this is
00:11:52
Red D
and putting her hands on her hips and that was incredibly rude and Neelix had to apologize and all this kind of stuff and Neelix obviously adapted to their language and culture pretty well but on the way back I have to say Jamie and I'm very sorry for saying this because I know how much you don't like this character but when Neelix said something like it seemed like more than a language and then he like elaborated on what he meant it's not like exactly like something Jamie would say on a podcast so he reminded me really really A lot of Jamie in that moment.
00:11:52
Jen
It's not going to be a good thing.
00:12:14
Jen
Can I
00:12:23
Jamie
any by way all
00:12:25
Jen
can i just clarify, that sounded like Jenny or Jamie?
00:12:28
Red D
Jamie, Jamie.
00:12:29
Jen
ah Okay.
00:12:30
Jamie
yes and this to annoy me because She's trying to say that I sound like Neelix.
00:12:33
Red D
No, not most of the time, but the way he said, like,
00:12:35
Jamie
eyes She's trying to say that I sound like Neelix and now she's trying to avoid a fight she doesn't have encourage her convictions. i Get out of that one. So I would like to robust rebut with the words of Neelix, the captain, in that moment.
00:12:51
Jamie
Reds are embarrassing me, or captain are embarrassing me, which was like, this is hysterical. So I will dive in with my point, which was, no wonder Voyager are both in the situation they are and indeed struggling to get back, if Neelix is the better ambassador, then their skipper.
00:13:09
Jamie
Because if that's the case, I would just like to suggest it's no surprise that they haven't managed to wangle a lift back to the Delta Quadrant from Q, for instance.
00:13:18
Jen
Servile.
00:13:19
Red D
I have to rebut this point, sorry Jane.
00:13:22
Jamie
So, before you say anything else, afraid you're embarrassing
00:13:25
Red D
Yes, but is he the better ambassador because he's so vile and is allowing this other culture so vile?
00:13:30
Jamie
Is he so what? He's so what? Vile! That's a bit...
00:13:34
Red D
So vile.
00:13:35
Jen
levile
00:13:36
Jamie
Oh, I thought you were saying he's so vile, and I was like...
00:13:40
Red D
You really need to rein in your hatred for Deluxe.
00:13:40
Jamie
ah know I don't like him, but I don't describe him as vile, just, you know, ridiculous and stupid and ironic, but never vile, not morally vile.
00:13:47
Jen
Oh.
00:13:51
Jamie
um So you think he's so vile, do you?
00:13:54
Red D
Well, Janeway just expects a little bit more like grace and you know like give and take in an intercultural exchange, whereas Neelix knew how to like do exactly everything that the other culture wanted to get them back on side, which didn't require the other side to have any grace or give and take.
00:14:11
Red D
So who's really the better person?
00:14:12
Jen
Mm.
00:14:16
Jamie
Tell you what, Red, next time that we stop in the Delta Quadrant, you can be on the shuttle that has Neelix as Skipper, and I'll be on the shuttle that has Janeway as Skipper. Now, yes, I will drive her crazy.
00:14:26
Red D
You would be dead!
00:14:27
Jamie
I will drive her crazy, and she might well boot me out the airlock, but I'm pretty sure my shuttle makes it back before yours does.
00:14:35
Red D
Deal.
00:14:36
Jamie
Yeah. Possibly because she sold my organs off, but that's a different question. She's always putting herself before the crew. um Jenny, I think that makes it your one, doesn't it?
00:14:45
Jen
Wow, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of...
00:14:48
Jen
We're not even having a discussion about this one with the agency
00:14:48
Red D
Sorry.
00:14:48
Jamie
A little unpackaged there, and we're not even having a discussion about this one with the aliens who collect people's organs.
00:14:54
Jen
Oh, yeah, you did remind me of them when you mentioned about the organs.
00:14:55
Jamie
Well, then that would be who she'd sell my organs to.
00:14:58
Jen
Oh, they're horrible. um I do like that opening scene, I've got to say. um Yeah, it's quite hilarious the way Leelix is having this conversation with the TAC-TAC and then Janeway tries to apologise and he says, Captain, please!
00:15:08
Jamie
with a TikTok.
00:15:15
Jen
it just I like that. It's funny. um And Leelix gets a promotion. I mean... you
00:15:24
Jamie
I mean, does does he get a promotion?
00:15:25
Jen
I
00:15:26
Jamie
It feels more like he's getting it, you know, dangled to keep his hopes up, but not that he actually gets promoted.
00:15:35
Jen
think it's I think it's official.
00:15:36
Red D
I think this is official because from i from what I remember, he's now the ambassador, right Jenny?
00:15:41
Jen
Yeah, it's going from officer to ambassador. say that's an pro information.
00:15:45
Red D
I guess we'll see in the future episodes, but I think it was a real promotion.
00:15:50
Jen
It's very important that HR gets paperwork and, you know, all that nonsense. um So my point is just, oh, I might have already said it a little bit. I just really like this episode.
00:16:03
Jen
really like the concept of the macro virus and how it infects people and then it multiplies and it grows by stealing the host's growth hormone. And I just think there's a lot of, like, little concepts from real life episodes.
00:16:15
Jamie
suspicious
00:16:16
Jen
viruses and disease all woven into one with a little bit of um just artistic license and imagination thrown in as well. And I just love that combo. I think it's quite creative. And it's all very like thought provoking as well about how, you know, disease is always evolving, right?
00:16:31
Jen
And and how obviously, I'm not suggesting it will one day e evolve into what we see here on the show. But it does make you think about how it could change in the future and and epidemics and viral pathogens.
00:16:40
Jamie
Well, it's actually rather similar to the vision of the Grimdott Warhammer 40,000 universe of the sort of plague flies and followers of a deity, know it well, you know, a chaos entity known as Nurgle, which is honestly some of the most revolting sounding fantasy literature descriptions I've ever heard of in my life. But the whole, you know, fly that bursts out of someone's neck and then sort of starts growing growing until it's enormous and chasing around with, you know, a stinger, that's very from that particular bit of the Warhammer canon.
00:17:17
Jen
Well, I think a lot of it's from actual science though, because that bit in particular reminds me of a particular, sorry.
00:17:21
Jamie
we have i'll just see it Do we have germs that large
00:17:28
Jen
No, no, but so um interesting, Jamie, it's a real um coincidence, but this, that particular aspect of it, the way it, um it will sort of, it'll look like an ulcer or a pus, something on your skin and then, and then actually the organism will come out. Um,
00:17:45
Jen
weirdly we were watching an episode of vr ah the other night and they've an actual real life disease where that happens it's not a fly that comes out it's like ah a worm and they have to pull pull the worm out and in particular they have to pull the worm out only two centimeters per day um for the many days until they get the whole thing out because you can't just pull it all out at once because then it it like breaks off and
00:17:48
Jamie
yeah yeah yeah the
00:17:52
Jamie
Hmm.
00:17:55
Jamie
Hmm.
00:17:58
Jamie
Hmm.
Medical Sci-Fi Elements and Real-Life Comparisons
00:18:09
Jen
bits of it die so
00:18:10
Jen
m Yeah, I mean, it sounds horrible, doesn't it? It's all very horrifying, but it's all just really interesting, I think, as well. And I just think they had all these interesting elements, um especially because viruses, right?
00:18:25
Jen
There's a sort of question over whether they're living.
00:18:26
Jamie
Um.
00:18:31
Jamie
Hmm.
00:18:31
Jen
you know what mean? Like they're they have RNA in them, but they're not.
00:18:34
Jamie
Hmm.
00:18:35
Red D
As in, do they want to keep on living? Or do you mean as in they're living?
00:18:37
Jen
No, as in, are they a living organism?
00:18:39
Red D
Oh.
00:18:40
Jen
Because they're not they they have ah RNA. there's there's From what I um recall, and my memory is very foggy on this, but they're basically like a a cell membrane with some ah RNA strands in them.
00:18:43
Jamie
Hmm.
00:18:50
Jen
um So, yeah, but they're not like...
00:18:51
Red D
That's ringing a bell.
00:18:56
Jen
They're very difficult to classify. You wouldn't necessarily say they were alive, but they're sort of in inbe between. They're not as they're not dead. and They're not not alive in the sense that, you know, like an inanimate object like a chair is
00:19:04
Jamie
Hmm.
00:19:08
Jen
But yeah, they're just a really kind of interesting, um well, whatever they are. um
00:19:16
Red D
Yeah, that is interesting.
00:19:18
Jen
So I just felt i thought, I thought about learning, a bit going into virology a bit more like many, many years ago, because ah I just found them quite fascinating, which is probably another reason I like this episode.
00:19:28
Jen
Even though I accept it as all total medical sci-fi, and I'm not really suggesting that giant macroviruses are going to fly around, you know, killing everyone.
00:19:39
Jamie
aren't
00:19:40
Jen
Well, who knows?
00:19:42
Red D
We hope not. We can only hope and pray.
00:19:42
Jamie
they? I've seen no evidence to prove that they won't.
00:19:48
Red D
2026, some people might say it's already been pretty big year. So let's save that for have giant flying viruses, then I have to have, sorry, my own weapons.
00:19:52
Jamie
yes
00:19:52
Jen
Yeah, want to jinx it. I mean...
00:19:55
Jamie
I'd kind of quite like to get it out of the way. I mean, it feels a bit weird. Like two weeks ago, we had a weekend when we weren't at war, for instance.
00:20:09
Red D
My own laser weapons. Just putting that out there.
00:20:12
Jamie
I think it's time to dust off the zombie escape plan.
00:20:13
Jen
i
00:20:16
Jen
I do have comments about the weapons later on, actually.
00:20:16
Red D
Just think.
00:20:19
Jen
But shall we go to you next, Red?
00:20:23
Red D
Yeah, sorry, that doesn't remind me.
00:20:24
Jen
and one
00:20:25
Red D
This is very random and I always talk about other podcasts, but I listen to, I sometimes watch this like crime talk with Scott Reich. Please nobody judge me on YouTube in the morning when I'm getting ready. And one of his sponsors or products that he recommends, there's a few things.
00:20:39
Red D
Like there's always like these background checks that you can do on people. Like um in America, you can do like extensive background checks but i that I don't think you can do in the UK. And then he's always got like these, I guess, emergency...
00:20:53
Red D
like there's these companies that have a subscription service for like a emergency box, like, and you just basically collect supplies every month in case one day there's some kind of apocalypse, which I'm like, I don't have space in my flat to store that.
00:20:56
Jen
Really?
00:21:08
Red D
So I can't do that. But it's amazing that there's a company that does that. Anyway, sorry, that just reminded me. And you can get like three months supply of food that doesn't go off for like 25 years and all this kind of stuff.
00:21:15
Jamie
It's
00:21:20
Red D
It's like,
00:21:21
Jamie
it's basically for preppers then, right?
00:21:22
Red D
Yeah, it's for preppers. Yeah, I guess preppers is the extreme. I guess, i mean, if you're in an area that gets hit by, like, very bad weather, you might also want some of this stuff.
00:21:29
Jen
Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:31
Red D
So, yeah.
00:21:32
Jen
we did yeah
00:21:34
Jamie
I mean, it becomes more and more plausible.
00:21:35
Red D
All I could think was, like, my flat. Yeah, my flat is very designed for daily shopping. It's not designed for storing stuff and prepping.
00:21:43
Jamie
that Or a siege situation in which the entire block has banded together to hold off you know a ravening horde of zombies.
00:21:52
Red D
Yeah, I guess in a siege situation and we could collaborate. Okay,
00:21:56
Jamie
You just need to you know break out the handguns.
00:21:58
Red D
okay the lasers, the lasers.
00:21:59
Jen
written We haven't..
00:22:00
Jamie
let's you know next
00:22:02
Jen
Yes,.
00:22:04
Red D
Sorry, on to my next point. When this episode started, I was like, wait a minute, is this a buddy comedy in the style of Rush Hour or something like that where you have the mismatched kind of police colleagues like Jackie Chang and, oh, who's the other guy?
00:22:20
Jen
mr ro
00:22:21
Red D
Yes, Chris Rock. Because we have Janeway and Neelix, who are very opposite-style characters.
00:22:23
Jen
okay
00:22:29
Red D
Then she, at some point, dropped Neelix. Then she was on her own.
00:22:32
Jen
I'm coming to the territory.
00:22:32
Red D
So then i was thinking more to Raider Alien. Then she picked up another buddy in the form of a Doctor.
00:22:37
Jamie
she was totally alien the entire time
00:22:39
Red D
but but I do think there was a very funny line at the start that made me think oh it could be going into buddy comedyary comedy territory until it went into um more serious territory which was something about along the lines of um well Ambassador we've got an unexpected guest from Janeway and the ex's response which was like I don't think he's the diplomatic type after he's just been given the promotion which I enjoyed
00:22:58
Jamie
Yeah.
00:23:02
Jamie
Yeah. of Yeah. I really loved it.
00:23:07
Jen
then yes yeah no elements of horror I was thinking it's more diehard that kind of line more than John Wayne
00:23:07
Jamie
I thought there was, you know shades of John Wayne Western as she says that. We've got an unexpected guest and I think he's the diplomatic type. And, you know, spats about the juice.
00:23:18
Red D
That so good!
00:23:19
Jamie
Yeah.
00:23:21
Red D
But then I went into more like horror-ish? I mean, not but not very scary horror, but I think it...
00:23:32
Jamie
yeah John Wayne knows Bruce thing
00:23:36
Jen
Like the yippee-gay-ay, motherfucker.
00:23:38
Red D
Yeah, that's also a good...
00:23:39
Jamie
I don't think he's the diplomatic type motherfuckers yeah I don't know
00:23:39
Red D
good
00:23:44
Jen
her Yeah, I really enjoyed the ghost comedic elements. And a little bit of the Doctor's later A little bit of Doctor comedy in there as well.
00:23:54
Jamie
Yeah, I mean, could I, if it if we've if it's my time to come in, yeah, i was going to say, could we talk about how the Doctor is dumb enough to suggest beaming one of the miners on board the actual ship?
00:23:59
Jen
It's your turn. I was going to say, when I thought about how the Doctor was dropping off, was it
00:24:10
Jamie
Like, the Doctor's confidence seriously has to be called into question this episode, because A, he suggests bringing an infected person onto a ship, which is just mega thick.
00:24:21
Jamie
And then even when he doesn't bring the infected person onto the ship, he still manages to bores up the bio purge so that the actual infection gets on the ship.
00:24:32
Jen
Oh my God, you're going steal my main point.
00:24:32
Jamie
because
00:24:35
Jamie
I haven't even seen, like, competence questions massively, massively called there. That was my point.
00:24:42
Jen
Yeah, no. um Yeah, I mean, i think the first one is sort of, they try to explain it a little bit in that he was, his, you know, it's like a Hippocratic oath.
00:24:45
Jamie
Build, build.
00:24:50
Jamie
Hmm.
00:24:53
Jen
He tries to save life and so he he wants to save the miners life.
00:24:54
Jamie
Hmm.
00:24:55
Jen
and But yeah, realistically, you'd think he'd be also programmed to
00:24:57
Jamie
Hmm.
00:25:00
Jen
protect against infection of the rest of the group.
00:25:00
Jamie
Hmm.
00:25:03
Jen
But no, my main, my main, my main issue here is I am not at all impressed with the process of bio filtering. Like, I think, I think there is some serious artistic license going on because there is no way like, first of all, why on earth would you wait for the transportee to get themselves back to the controls to purge the filters?
00:25:11
Jamie
yeah hu
00:25:25
Jen
And especially because there was already someone at the controls who could have done it much quicker.
00:25:25
Jamie
Hmm.
00:25:28
Jamie
Hmm.
00:25:29
Jen
So there's like this three second gap. That's like completely ah like why was the reason for that?
00:25:33
Jamie
Hmm.
00:25:35
Jen
And then also, I just think surely you'd beam the transportee into a containment field and then, and then, you know, purge it and you know, like basically there's biohazard protocols in the real world that are,
00:25:51
Jen
more thought through and better processed processes than what they've done there.
00:25:55
Jamie
Yeah.
00:25:56
Jen
like so I was just, I i just think that the protocols need a thorough reviewing. That's my run over.
00:26:06
Red D
I mean, yeah I think because what we learn is that the doctor has been studying the away ah mission protocols and there is a specific protocol for a medical emergency on alien terrain.
00:26:19
Red D
So should of like, which he did study and
00:26:23
Jamie
Yeah, and he's theoretically like a machine, not a lot machine, but like he's a computer programmer. It should be like, rule, follow it.
00:26:30
Red D
Yeah, and I mean, it's funny that Chakotay was way more insistent and knew the rules better than a program that we should understand.
00:26:36
Jamie
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:38
Red D
He was like, at least trying his best, like, no, you cannot beam a supposed abort. No, you cannot beam a sample off of the virus abort.
00:26:43
Jen
go ahead and see what I'm doing.
00:26:43
Jamie
yeah
00:26:44
Red D
Like, no, no, no
00:26:44
Jamie
yeah
00:26:46
Red D
But I think you're right, Jenny. There was a bit of a loophole or something in the process.
00:26:51
Jen
Yeah, ah artist I forgive them though because I really like this episode and, you know, they had to somehow get the ship infected for the episode to, you know, happen. soon
00:27:02
Jamie
It could have been hit by a meteorite that had the virus from Resident Evil on it.
00:27:02
Red D
Yes, that's true.
00:27:07
Jen
Yeah, but then you wouldn't have the really cool element of the sort of horror element where there's, they first discover a population that has already been
00:27:19
Jamie
Hmm.
00:27:19
Jen
like massively decimated or it's some unknown disease or it looks really serious and scary it's killing everyone we must make sure it doesn't come onto our you know but there's like that element of you know that it's going to happen and the sort build up to it um which i quite like which you want me to
00:27:21
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm.
00:27:37
Jamie
I don't want drama. I want competence from my medical staff. And the only one who shows any competence this episode is Kez.
00:27:45
Red D
But actually, sorry, now that we're talking about it more, it makes me think because obviously the doctor is very swayed by that um when he goes to the planet, the mining colony or whatever, and that person comes out and is like, oh, please take save me whatever.
00:28:00
Red D
And he is really swayed by that person's argument.
00:28:01
Jamie
Yep.
00:28:02
Red D
That is terrible decision-making from an algorithm.
00:28:05
Jamie
Yep.
00:28:05
Red D
but I'm just going to say.
00:28:06
Jamie
Yep.
00:28:06
Jen
Yep. Yep.
00:28:09
Red D
Like, you should be like, no there's 170 people back on Starship that I have to make sure don't get sick and die.
00:28:15
Jen
yeah it
00:28:17
Red D
Yes.
00:28:18
Jen
I did have like another um point that I wrote down, but then I deleted it because it was going to be like a question to you guys, like, why is this like this? And then I answered it myself. But um basically, i at first I was like, and also, is this an artistic license thing? Why is it the doctor afraid of the macroviruses? Because he's a hologram.
00:28:37
Jamie
Yeah, I was like, what the fuck?
00:28:39
Jen
Well, then I realized that the, yeah,
00:28:39
Red D
yes
00:28:39
Jamie
But his emitter can be destroyed. Chakotu fed it so that there wasn't a fothole.
00:28:44
Jen
and yeah And I realised actually that mobile omitted thing is quite a good um like storytelling creating device because it allows the doctor to be not totally invulnerable to everything.
00:28:50
Jamie
Pothovite.
00:28:58
Jen
um So he can't like always come and save the day.
00:29:02
Jamie
They do seem to make a point off that any time the Doctor is there to sort of give him points of vulnerability. use So when he's 90s era Earth, the guy who can torture him by actually pressing a button on his emitter and then this, his emitter getting damaged.
00:29:20
Jen
yes
00:29:20
Jamie
It's a useful plot device, I agree.
00:29:22
Jen
And the fact that if he something happens to the mobile emitter while he's out of the, you know what do call it, holodeck, then his program will be lost, which is basically he dies. They add jeopardy to the doctor's life um in a creative way.
00:29:39
Red D
Yeah, that is very clever because they're giving him more scope and freedom, but more risk. So it comes at a cost, that's good.
00:29:46
Jamie
yeah ah Otherwise you just send the doctor in to sort out every situation the way that you you know you're going to send drones in to every situation now.
00:29:58
Red D
ah I don't know if it's just me, but Jamie, are we getting a quote I'm getting a big echo from you, but I don't think it really matters. So I'm just gonna say, like I think when and everything gets produced at the end, it will be fine, but so...
Technical Difficulties and Audio Issues
00:30:09
Red D
um I don't know, Jenny, if you're getting the same thing from Jamie. a bit of a ah
00:30:13
Jen
um' not getting anything but i'm happy to go grab some headphones if it's distracting
00:30:17
Red D
No, I don't think really matters because our audio is uploaded locally and then combined. So as long as it's not bothering you during the podcast, and that's fine.
00:30:25
Jen
i know i haven't heard it at all at any point for some reason i'm immune um cool well then back to you reg
00:30:28
Red D
OK, great.
00:30:33
Red D
OK, let me just bring up my notes. Okay, so, i mean, maybe we've discussed this before, actually, but um I'm glad to see Nelix's podcast is still going, or his YouTube channel. Oh, no, I'm going to...
00:30:49
Jamie
That's so grim, you sort of come in and the thing to bring horror is like an endlessly repeating reel of Neelix.
00:30:58
Red D
Yeah, in ah Ensign Wildman's quarters, she's been watching. She's one of his most devoted listeners, which made me think it's more like a podcast or a YouTube channel than just a normal news broadcast.
00:31:09
Red D
So a very early prototype, yeah.
00:31:10
Jen
definitely
00:31:15
Red D
So I enjoyed that, but yeah, that was my, that's all I had to say about it. Just more like, oh yeah, he's like an influencer. He's a little influencer on Starship Voyager. Yeah.
00:31:24
Jen
Yeah, and it's still going on. It's still going strong.
00:31:27
Red D
Yeah.
00:31:27
Jen
So, it's doing well. Excellent. Jamie, over to you again.
00:31:35
Jamie
I would like to engage with the fact that how enjoyably flouncily emo are the tak-tak.
00:31:43
Jen
on.
00:31:46
Jen
Come on. Come
00:31:46
Jamie
It's just so much drama any time they say anything or do anything. For those who can't see this podcast because we're not filmed, I'm pulling a pose every time I say something.
00:31:52
Jen
on. Yeah, I like that as well. The gestures are part of the language, not just the words.
00:31:56
Jamie
It's sort of all, you know, dramatically posed, which I very much enjoy. And maybe that's why the captain doesn't go down so well, because she doesn't really do drama, she's just business, whereas they're dramatic and its absence is rude.
00:32:11
Jen
sister yeah i i like that as well they their gestures are part of their language not just the words
00:32:19
Red D
Yeah, I did like that. I didn't think of it as the emo angle, but it there is, I mean, they had quite, what's the word, overt body language to go with each message, which must be pain to learn if you didn't grow up with that, but um it was fun to watch, for sure.
00:32:23
Jamie
They're a vibe.
00:32:37
Jen
It's sort of like learning, it must must be what considered one of the hardest languages in the universe to learn.
00:32:45
Red D
Yeah, I...
00:32:46
Jen
You're learning two languages at once, aren't you? Because it's a bit like learning sign language whilst also learning a new verbal language.
00:32:52
Red D
And I wonder if there's actually like a dual track or like parallelism, i don't know that's the right word, where you could say something, but your body is saying something else. So you're like, yes, I accept your apology, but your body language is like, I definitely do not.
00:33:02
Jen
Oh.
00:33:07
Red D
And you'll be banished forever.
00:33:09
Jamie
like when you say something with your voice but the way that you say it says something opposite like I accept your apology
00:33:10
Jen
or sorry you know not really sorry i like
00:33:17
Red D
Yeah, exactly.
00:33:17
Jen
yeah or sorry you know not really sorry
00:33:22
Jamie
or I know what your heart meant when you say to someone i accept your apology and they said I never apologised no no no that was a line from Deadpool actually
00:33:31
Red D
That wasn't a diggin journey.
00:33:35
Jen
a
00:33:38
Jen
I kind of lost lost the... I did not see that one.
00:33:42
Red D
Lost track.
00:33:42
Jen
Yeah, I lost track of that one.
00:33:44
Jamie
I accept your apology, Jenny.
00:33:44
Red D
That's fair.
00:33:46
Jen
Sorry?
00:33:48
Jamie
I said i accept your apology.
00:33:49
Jen
I said I accept your apology. Oh, well, good. I'm glad.
Humorous Digression: Deadpool and HR
00:33:53
Red D
I'm just going to go on the record and say, I don't think Deadpool is very good.
00:33:53
Jen
haven't seen it, but Jamie advises me I would like it.
00:33:58
Red D
The end.
00:34:00
Jen
yeah i haven't seen it but ja
00:34:02
Jamie
Okay, unrelatedly, HR have just emailed something about we need to talk about the personnel on this podcast.
00:34:02
Jen
maybe he advises me i would like
00:34:11
Jamie
I'm sure it's nothing in our case, but you know, Red, say I'd probably start polishing up my CV if I was here, just just based on those last comments.
00:34:19
Red D
Uh oh. I've been cancelled.
00:34:20
Jamie
<unk> as you
00:34:22
Jen
I think that feels good.
00:34:25
Red D
I love Ryan Reynolds from Two Guys, A Girl, and A Pizza Place.
00:34:29
Jen
Yeah.
00:34:29
Red D
Do I think that pulls very good?
00:34:30
Jen
I mean, HR on one stick when...
00:34:32
Red D
Nah.
00:34:34
Jamie
I mean ah HR or once again sending me non-specifically passive aggressively menacing emails about career limitation due to association with quote unquote people in inverted commas.
00:34:35
Jen
our problem
00:34:42
Jen
non-specifically passive aggressive.
00:34:53
Jamie
So yeah, that ah probably outlines my position on the whole position you have of Deadpool not being very good.
00:35:03
Red D
Oh dear, the cat's elated is spreading. Sorry, Jamie.
00:35:07
Jamie
Not a critic, not a cancellation, just good solid HR process.
00:35:15
Jen
So, i think it's me. um And i'm I'm afraid, even though I like this episode, I did not write many comments, so is sort of my last one. But I'll try and think of some ones. Basically, i do love the Tomb Raider Janeway.
00:35:30
Jen
That is brilliant. I am a bit confused as to where all the weaponry comes from. And these like giant bazookas that basically... See you again. you know like Is there a secret stash of weapons and kit and stuff that we don't know about in voyager that they basically never need to use again for colonies
00:35:49
Jamie
Can I be an absolute teenager and reference the the things that made Tomb Raider famous when I was a teenager? In the sort of comment would have made, can I just be specific, when you talk about General's bazookas, you are talking about weaponry.
00:36:03
Jen
yes um that was
00:36:04
Jamie
Right, I thought I'd ask the question.
00:36:08
Jen
that was
00:36:08
Red D
But we see, we have the little scene in where she, I think she's in engineering and you know, like they have that like jewel, what's that word?
00:36:15
Jamie
Well, everywhere seems to have weapons caches when they're boarded, doesn't it?
00:36:16
Jen
weapons ca is when the board edge doesn't it it's just that
00:36:19
Jamie
It's just they're hidden under panels.
00:36:22
Red D
Because she opens that big like chest and pulls out the bazooka as you call it Jenny.
00:36:22
Jen
because that was a big one train.
00:36:26
Red D
But I think that was an engineering.
00:36:27
Jen
Yeah.
00:36:27
Jamie
Phrasing!
00:36:28
Jen
I mean, I don't know. It might not be a bazooka. I mean, I'm not exactly up to speed on gun and linguistics, guys, but the the big thing.
00:36:35
Jamie
more big rifle.
00:36:38
Jen
um Yeah, I just don't think i've so we ever see them using that and again, but I could be wrong. Don't they just always lasers, apart from this episode?
00:36:46
Jamie
when When did this episode come out and when did Aliens come out?
00:36:46
Jen
Yeah.
00:36:50
Jamie
Just because like there were strong similarities that were being referenced there.
00:36:55
Red D
I think that's always a good question.
00:36:59
Red D
I can find out when the episode came out and then if you can find out when Alien came out. It was ah between 1996 and 97.
00:37:03
Jamie
Aliens came out...
00:37:04
Red D
No. Yeah.
00:37:06
Jamie
Oh, Aliens was in 86, so maybe it was a 10-year anniversary thing.
00:37:10
Jen
Oh, nice.
00:37:10
Red D
so
00:37:13
Jen
That makes sense. I would be shocked if this came before Alien. like That would be really surprising. Because it does play as a bit of a...
00:37:20
Red D
yeah
00:37:22
Jen
um ah What's the word? You know when you're sort of venerating something.
00:37:28
Red D
Homage?
00:37:30
Jen
Say again?
00:37:31
Red D
Homage?
00:37:31
Jamie
Pastiche or homage?
00:37:33
Jen
ah Yeah, you know, like you're celebrating the um the original.
00:37:33
Red D
Homage.
00:37:39
Jen
by hi Yeah,
00:37:39
Red D
Yeah, which I mean, most TV writers love TV and films, so they will draw from, I think, the kind of fun influences, I presume.
00:37:52
Jen
I quite like that. um That was it really for mine. So we're back to you, Red.
00:37:59
Red D
Back to me. Okay. So I think my next point was when ah had a couple of references that are not going to be the same as Jamie, but they were, you know, when that you sometimes get, I guess, the perspective of the giant insect as it's like buzzing around Voyager.
Macrovirus and Insect Comparisons
00:38:16
Red D
And I was like, like it kind of like depths and rises, depths and rises, like a kind of a insect buzzing around.
00:38:17
Jen
Hmm.
00:38:25
Red D
which reminded me of some cartoon which I can't please but then when they come into the I guess it's the mess hall I think where a lot of the crews gathered and passed out or asleep or succumbed to the virus I was like ah the tsetse fly sleeping sickness like it all came like back to me which is something I haven't had to think about for a very long time since I've lived South Africa or Southern Africa
00:38:52
Jamie
Oh, we know the tzatzah. We know the tzatzah very well.
00:38:54
Red D
Yeah, but you, I mean, I remember learning about that, like, ah either at school or through literature, I can't really remember. But I was like, Oh, i wonder if this is all based on that concept a bit. Because, I mean, to be fair, you could just say those people had, were kind of a bit unconscious, because they were very ill.
00:39:05
Jen
and
00:39:09
Red D
But there's something about it that reminded me of the Zetsi Blythe's Leading Sickness.
00:39:13
Jen
yeah no i no I agree I think they definitely are just drawing on all kinds of different elements of different diseases and certainly in that aspect it's like the sleeping sickness isn't it yeah totally agree yeah yeah
00:39:28
Red D
Yeah, because no one is dying, but they are just kind of asleep. Which I think is a good thing.
00:39:32
Jen
yeah
00:39:34
Red D
I don't know how real sleeping sickness manifests. It's a long time since I learned about this, but yeah.
00:39:40
Jen
Yeah. No, Jamie and I remember the sexy floats from the safari.
00:39:44
Jamie
honeymoon just being so infestably.
00:39:45
Red D
Yeah.
00:39:47
Jamie
Such fuckers. Like stinging up through shoes.
00:39:51
Jen
It's amazing what they can sting through.
00:39:51
Red D
shoot.
00:39:52
Jen
Yeah, yeah well, that was the amazing one.
00:39:52
Jamie
Yeah, like shoes, shirts... Yeah. Yeah, they stinging me through a set trainers.
00:39:59
Jen
i was... six
00:40:02
Jamie
They...
00:40:02
Red D
Oh my god. I'm never going back to Africa.
00:40:03
Jamie
like...
00:40:04
Red D
every
00:40:04
Jen
You know,
00:40:07
Red D
I am from South Africa, listeners.
00:40:07
Jen
you
00:40:08
Red D
I go there every year.
00:40:10
Jamie
WHAT?! YOU'RE FROM SOUTH AFRICA?! WHAT?! WHAT?! NO!
00:40:14
Red D
I'm like, in London there are no insects and I've kind of got it used to this lifestyle so so I don't know if I can go back to it.
00:40:19
Jamie
I mean, again, feel that...
00:40:22
Red D
And that one time I cycled through the highlands there were no midges. So that was lucky, I believe, but
00:40:27
Jen
Oh, lucky.
00:40:31
Red D
I'm so grateful. That's all I can say.
00:40:34
Jen
Yeah. Absolutely. So, Jamie.
00:40:41
Jamie
Right.
00:40:41
Jen
Over to you.
00:40:43
Jamie
Hang on, just consulting my notes here.
00:40:44
Jen
like
00:40:45
Jamie
i was just going say the Sigourney Waiver homage slash pastiche, which to me is the strongest of the sort of homages that I get from this, um to the point where I'm quite surprised they didn't get sued for creative infringement.
00:41:05
Jamie
um Yeah, how the Doctor, the Emo Aliens. I just, do we really, I mean my last thing is just really to ask, do we really think that it lands like as Star Trek grimdark?
00:41:19
Jamie
Because like, there's a bit of an element of everything goes to pot but it's fine by the end of the episode. You're a bit like, would it be fine?
00:41:31
Jen
would it be fine i was really curious about it when you mentioned that earlier because um to me it's like but there are episodes like that that i think but this is
Viral Epidemics and Real-World Parallels
00:41:43
Jen
for me definitely not one of them like it really because they they he synthesizes an antidote
00:41:48
Jamie
I refer to growing out of flies that come out of people's necks, that's pretty grim, dog.
00:41:55
Jen
oh so you mean more as the overall atmosphere they're going for, not how the episode resolves.
00:42:02
Jamie
Well, I sort of feel like the way it resolves undermines the ah the atmosphere they've been driving.
00:42:10
Red D
But if it's all scientifically driven, then it's kind of plausible. Right?
00:42:14
Jen
Yeah, I mean, he he takes a ah ah you know bit of the virus and uses it to synthesize an antidote, and then he inoculates everyone.
00:42:14
Red D
ail
00:42:18
Jamie
Come on, it's friends, come on, it's not magic.
00:42:22
Jen
And that seems very like sort of logical and and scientific to me. um and it's a nice clean cut resolution um but maybe it doesn't fit with the atmosphere you're talking about jake is it's um you know every everyone's fives and is fine and covered and um i guess if it was truly one of these sort of dark horror episodes then you know only one person would survive
00:42:47
Red D
But if we think a little bit in the context of our recent pandemic, coronavirus, and like you're more at risk, I guess, you're older, it and no one on the crew is old, they're all healthy, young, service.
00:42:56
Jen
Yeah, I was a bit like, why does it have to be bomb?
00:43:01
Jamie
You're right, they should have all been made to self-isolate in their quarters.
00:43:02
Jen
That's really weird. I don't understand why you
00:43:07
Red D
I'm just trying like, make it seem more reasonable, but Maybe that like anti-virus bomb at the end in the holotech was a little bit of a stretch.
00:43:19
Red D
Yeah, they
00:43:20
Jen
yeah i was a bit like why is it have to be a bomb that's really weird' understand why he would exclude
00:43:25
Jamie
Why can't it just be like a scent diffuser?
00:43:27
Jen
yes and But they've got to add, like I say, it's ah this artistic license in this kind of thing.
00:43:38
Red D
got one hour to tell a story. So the bomb was quicker.
00:43:43
Jen
Yeah.
00:43:44
Jamie
bomb it is, I suppose children, a bomb it is.
00:43:47
Jen
I'm just trying to think what else I can, it's back to me. And I've kind of, even though I really enjoyed this episode, ran out points. um So I might have to just, I just add on to whatever you guys say, because you whenever you but say your points, they're always really interesting and they always like inspire other thoughts. So I'm going to hand back to Red.
00:44:12
Red D
Yeah, so let me think. Let me see. So, I mean, I think we already covered this a lot of detail, but, and as you pointed out, Jenny, from that ERI episode, there's already a version of this probably in real life, but the idea of insects emerging from an orifice on the side of my neck was pretty gross.
00:44:19
Jen
I'm sorry, been working many
00:44:30
Red D
I mean, that really brought about some visceral reactions while was watching this episode. I don't know how you guys found it.
00:44:38
Jen
Oh yeah, yeah, really. It's a really disgusting. Yeah, concept.
00:44:43
Red D
I think it's like as a kid you grow up and you like start to learn about the concept of like worms and like I don't know if this is true but like remember I don't know if you've been learning this I've eaten a lot of sushi since I was a kid but as a kid I remember learning not learning like through the myth grapevine that like if you ate sushi you get brain worms or something I don't know
00:45:05
Jen
Oh, yeah. I mean, they do exist, but I think they're really, really rare.
00:45:09
Red D
yeah so it's really tapping into that like kind of
00:45:09
Jen
Hmm.
00:45:13
Red D
There's an element of truth, but that also that kind of hyped up fear or like, um a what's the whole term I'm looking for? What's, I've gone blank, but those kind of fake stories that spread around as a kid.
00:45:28
Red D
And as it turns out, just spread around on social media now. But um yeah, it was ah when the little like things flutter out of the side of the neck, that was very disturbing for me.
00:45:40
Jen
no It's horrible, yeah. Horrifying. And it also, um unfortunately, always reminds me of like, oh yes, I must make sure the cats are fully worm.
00:45:52
Jen
Because you can actually get worms from your cat.
00:45:55
Red D
Yes. No, that I do know. That I do know. Yeah.
00:45:58
Jen
Which is horrifying. So, really don't want that happening.
00:46:00
Red D
Yes.
00:46:03
Red D
No.
00:46:03
Jen
No, I having some flashbacks.
00:46:04
Red D
And then, no, was going to, I was having some flashback to some terror.
00:46:06
Jen
That were terrible.
00:46:09
Jamie
Sorry.
00:46:09
Jen
our turn
00:46:10
Jen
Jamie, you back with us?
00:46:10
Red D
Jamie, you back with us?
00:46:12
Jamie
I mean, is ah is one ever truly back with one? um No, sorry. My internet died during a gust of wind. Outside,
00:46:23
Jen
Well, you're back at just the right time.
Improvisation and Exhausted Topics
00:46:25
Jen
It's back to you. Yeah.
00:46:27
Jamie
Well, actually, I've rather exhausted my points. So I, like you, Jay, am in the stage where we look Red to lead us. Lead us, Red. Lead us.
00:46:37
Jen
you
00:46:37
Red D
Okay. I think i have my last points are very minor, but I will say I did enjoy the little bit of Paris and Bologna banter in the idiom the mess hall before everything went to virus.
00:46:48
Jen
Yeah.
00:46:53
Red D
But with I think he'd been cooking. I missed a little bit of it. And then like she was there to try and fix something and he was like, oh, don't know. There was like a little...
00:47:02
Jamie
You can't leave me! The natives are restive!
00:47:03
Red D
Yes. Planting little seeds maybe for later. But there's little banter back and forth, which I enjoyed.
00:47:08
Jen
yeah
00:47:11
Red D
Yes.
00:47:12
Jen
I think he was blaming the engineering for the cooking that he first, wasn't it?
00:47:15
Red D
Yes.
00:47:16
Jen
Yeah, I like that.
00:47:18
Jamie
And he wasn't wrong because the replicator was up the spout.
00:47:22
Red D
Yeah. And then later on it was actually quite nice when I guess they're now all collapsing and succumbing to this virus. I mean, not nice. And then him and Rolana are like near each other at the same table and I don't know. It's just planting some seeds for later, I guess.
00:47:37
Jen
It is it is. It's actually making me
00:47:39
Jamie
Looks.
00:47:40
Jen
think about a very specific Ballada Tom episode, which is like, that's going to be a really interesting one to discuss where you probably already know which one I'm thinking of. The one with Pon Far and all sorts of things.
00:47:53
Red D
Oh yes. Oh yes, that's so good.
00:47:56
Jen
Oh, God, there's a scene between Tom and Ballada.
00:47:56
Red D
That's so good.
00:47:59
Jen
Anyway, we'll get to that one
00:48:02
Red D
um And then I think they did a good job in terms of continuity on Janeway's arm of her like, you know, she gets bitten by the kind of insect or and then slowly her bite.
00:48:06
Jen
one. Yeah.
00:48:14
Jamie
So actually, I i have an element of plot incongruousness in that the moment that Janeway first presents herself to the Doctor on getting back to the ship, he scans her with the tricorder, but he scans the wrong arm.
00:48:16
Red D
Yeah.
00:48:28
Jamie
He scans the one that's had nothing happen to it.
00:48:30
Red D
Yes, I was wondering about that.
00:48:30
Jamie
um like
00:48:32
Jen
Oh.
00:48:33
Red D
So he picks up a broken rib and torn muscle, but not the bite, I think. is's a bit of a
00:48:38
Jamie
And like, it has like a massive bubo on it and everything.
00:48:42
Jen
Yeah.
00:48:42
Red D
Well, hook i can I tell you a funny story?
00:48:45
Red D
and this This goes back to ah me living in London and not encountering any insects.
00:48:48
Jamie
Only if it doesn't include you having an enormous bubo.
00:48:52
Red D
It does include me having an enormous fever.
00:48:53
Jen
it
00:48:55
Red D
Well, not quite that at all. No, I'm exaggerating, so that you let me tell the story. Let me tell the story, but I went to Nottingham to watch my friend play touch rugby. So I guess I was standing on the edge of like rugby fields for like a weekend.
00:49:07
Red D
And then like a few days later, i was back in London and I had like a sore, similar to what Janeway had, but much less aggravated, let's say, on like the front of my ankle.
00:49:17
Red D
And I was like, oh my God, what is...
00:49:19
Jamie
That sounds like a good weekend.
00:49:20
Red D
what is that? Like, oh my gosh, how like could that be like, whatever? So I like i took a picture and I Google lensed it and i was like, that's a mosquito bite. and I just hadn't had mosquito bite for so long that I forgot what a mosquito bite looks like.
00:49:34
Red D
And so I was like, oh, wow, I've been in London too long and not exposed to mosquitoes. Because i was just like, what is this sword? Anyway, that's my story.
00:49:44
Red D
And that's my point.
00:49:45
Jen
i mean you wouldn't necessarily expect it in nottingham though would you so i think i would might might wonder what it was i you
00:49:51
Jamie
Yeah, you'd just go far worse, wouldn't
00:49:52
Red D
Yeah, I mean, I didn't like come back from Rottingham thinking I'd be into the malaria capital the UK or something.
00:49:57
Jen
exactly so
00:49:59
Red D
I'd already thought about it, but but in hindsight, I was like outdoors, you know, for I don't know.
00:50:05
Jen
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:07
Red D
Sorry, Jamie, were saying something?
00:50:10
Jamie
you? No, I was just probably going to be smutty, so don't worry about it.
00:50:14
Red D
I was just very upset that, I mean, I grew up in South Africa, i got mosquito bites all the time and I forgot what mosquito bite looked like.
00:50:21
Jen
That's, it's a good thing, surely, you have been so little.
00:50:22
Jamie
I was so small it didn't even register on the scale of what you used to get back in South Africa.
00:50:22
Red D
that's hard I'm very pleased. I hate mosquitoes.
00:50:30
Red D
Yes. I'm very pleased. And my final point, which I will go, is the my two-piece, my favorite two-piece blue piece is back.
00:50:40
Red D
Because when they um I guess reignite the holodeck, they play the tropical paradise program and we get to see that.
00:50:50
Jen
Oh my god, that was hilarious.
00:50:50
Jamie
Oh, that was hysterical.
00:50:51
Jen
I forgot about that scene.
00:50:54
Red D
And I, yeah, who knows how many times that scene, but that like, program comes back, but yeah, so my favorite, that like, real, that like,
00:50:54
Jamie
Oh.
00:51:01
Jamie
Yeah.
Holodeck Scene Analysis: Comedy and Darkness
00:51:03
Jamie
Stop, Léo. Right there.
00:51:04
Red D
turquoise blue, like sports bra, lycra leggings is really growing up, that's all I can say.
00:51:10
Jamie
This, this, this.
00:51:11
Jen
i just think that is hilarious that they've got this like... this very glossy, bright, cheerful, everything's perfect beach world on the holodeck and then in come these like morphed macroviruses and then the next scene you see is like all of the holo characters just lying on the floor dead.
00:51:23
Red D
Yes!
00:51:29
Jen
with
00:51:29
Red D
I know, it's quite, it's quite traumatic actually.
00:51:33
Jen
It is, but it's also like really comedic, I think. I really like that.
00:51:37
Red D
Yeah.
00:51:38
Jen
I clearly have a dark streak. I guess it reminds it reminds me a little bit of the Barbie movie, you know, like It's Barbie, so it's all like you know overly you know sugar and spice, ah but then also there's this really dark streak to it as well.
00:51:55
Red D
that my favorite part of the Barbie movie is that Barbie who's had her hair cut, who's being completely like destroyed by her owners. do you remember that character? Like she is so real. She's so funny.
00:52:09
Jen
Weirdly, know I didn't actually like the Barbie movie, but it did it did remind me of that, that Holotech scene.
00:52:15
Red D
Yeah. I just want to clarify. i thought the Barbie movie was terribly written, but I love that character. And I liked like just Barbie universe.
00:52:24
Jen
Oh, good. I found someone on my wavelength thread. Yes, I just
00:52:26
Red D
Oh, no, it's it has no plot. It has no purpose. It has no. Yeah, I can't. I can't get into it, but everyone loved
00:52:32
Jen
Yeah, I fully agree.
00:52:32
Jamie
used to be a weird silence from the HR email address, so carry on, guess.
00:52:33
Jen
with
00:52:36
Red D
And everybody, everybody before I saw saw the film was like, oh, Ryan Gosling, he's amazing. He's amazing. He's amazing. But yeah he was good. But he wasn't amazing.
00:52:47
Red D
I'm sorry.
00:52:48
Jen
I mean, I'm not, yeah, I mean, they were all okay.
00:52:49
Red D
Like.
00:52:51
Jen
I i really didn't understand the hype. i I sort of look back and think maybe I was just um just marketed to, you know, and to to to in order to go and see it.
00:53:03
Jen
And then in reality, when you see it, you're...
00:53:04
Red D
I mean, to be fair, I saw it on a plane. And sometimes when you see a film at different points in your life, it has different impact. So I don't want to... But I was just like, it doesn't have... The film didn't have good structure.
00:53:15
Jen
Hmm. Right.
00:53:15
Red D
So I think for me, that is always going to let it down because that's going to bother me the whole way through. Yes.
00:53:22
Jen
Yeah, I feel like it was definitely lacking and I don't know if it was like a combination of factors for me. Like, I i don't think the screenplay was anything, or but also the delivery wasn't anything.
00:53:30
Red D
yes
00:53:33
Jen
I just, yeah, I really liked the concept, but um in theory, but just, yeah, how it came together was...
00:53:41
Red D
It was fun to see the different Barbies. And then I did go see the Barbie exhibition at the Design Museum like a year or two later, which was fun because that was fascinating. It was a good exhibition.
00:53:53
Red D
um But...
00:53:56
Jen
did you have did you Did you have like the Barbie house red?
00:53:56
Red D
i mean
00:53:59
Red D
ah Okay, so first of all, yes, I adored Barbies growing up. But when I mean when i say Barbies, I mean that type of doll. Although I think most of my Barbies were Barbies, not like knockoff Barbies, if that makes sense.
00:54:11
Jen
Barbies, not both Barbies.
00:54:15
Red D
But I never had any of the, oh, no, I lie. I had an amazing doll's house that my grandparents got me. That was a beautiful like dormer framed, like wooden, like it wasn't plastic.
00:54:25
Jen
Oh,
00:54:27
Red D
And it had like carpeted. i mean, it was amazing. But I think I did have like a Barbie jacuzzi.
00:54:29
Jen
ah you had classy version, yeah. yeah
00:54:37
Red D
Like, I'm playing. And I remember, like, you know tucking my Barbies in at night and all this kind of stuff. I mean, I love playing with them. But so, yeah.
00:54:48
Jen
I had toride the very tacky, yeah, plastic Barbie house, which I enjoyed.
00:54:49
Red D
And you?
00:54:54
Red D
I'm sure.
00:54:54
Jen
think It even had the pink Barbie car as well.
00:54:58
Red D
Oh, amazing. I mean, that's what everyone wanted. I'm not sure that's what I had was what I wanted. But by the time i was 18, I was like, oh, this was amazing. Yeah.
00:55:06
Jen
you So, themes. I'm the only one who's written themes.
00:55:11
Red D
Yeah, themes, I'm not sure.
00:55:11
Jen
Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:13
Red D
Oh, themes is, themes is, okay, I have a theme. It just came to me, but it's like, it really annoys me in the workplace or whatever, when people are like, oh, this has happened, what should we do?
00:55:20
Jen
game is like
00:55:28
Red D
and I'm like, don't we have a procedure for that? And the theme should be stick to the procedures for predictable things, which 99% of things are. We don't have to reinvent it every time.
00:55:39
Red D
And as you kind of, we've all alluded to, huge mistake to get these viruses on board.
00:55:45
Jamie
Could we have predicted the doctor being incompetent?
00:55:45
Jen
Yeah,
00:55:50
Red D
That's true. Normally it's pretty competent.
00:55:53
Jamie
Can't really write a process for human incompetence. Android-ing.
00:55:57
Red D
That's what most processes are for, to avoid human competence.
00:55:59
Jen
eat me yeah it assumes that all all human error.
00:56:01
Jamie
And yet, most incompetence happens when people switch their brains off. And guess what process does? It switches people's brains off.
00:56:09
Red D
That's true.
00:56:11
Jen
I do not agree with this.
00:56:13
Red D
Well, I don't know when I joined my, like I started working in like management consulting and everyone's like the processes, process that. I was like, our processes are what you have when you have to hire people that aren't very smart.
00:56:19
Jen
first of have to
00:56:22
Red D
But that seems pretty.
00:56:23
Jamie
Yeah. Yeah.
00:56:25
Jen
See, I think I learned something different starting out, the starting out as an editor. And that was, and there there's little like tests you can do to prove it as well. It's like, no, no, no, that um basically it doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, how clever you are, um human error will always exist.
00:56:33
Jamie
You can prove that someone is smart and dumb.
00:56:42
Jen
And so processes, i.e. review processes, for example, um that's why they're there. Because everyone is infallible and that's why you need a reviewer.
00:56:52
Jamie
Everyone is fallible.
00:56:54
Jen
Say again?
00:56:54
Jamie
I think what we've said everyone is fallible, and that just sort of proved the point.
00:56:54
Red D
Yeah, no, that's a very good point.
00:56:59
Jen
sagan
00:57:00
Jamie
So you said everyone is infallible. I think what you meant is everyone is fallible. And by saying that everyone is infallible, you proved the point.
00:57:10
Jen
Oh, I see. no i Yeah, you're right. What have you said?
00:57:17
Jamie
Although, you know, strong man's spination on my part. So, you know, winning at life too.
00:57:21
Jen
That's a very edited thing you just said, Jamie.
00:57:21
Red D
So I, oh, go ahead.
00:57:23
Jen
You're like, you know, critiquing and pointing out these minor little, you know, everyone knew what I meant, but you had to point out that they were right.
00:57:32
Jamie
did they Did they? I don't like to make assumptions on the part of the good viewership of Janeway's children. So, um you know, they might not be as smart as you'd be from credit for.
00:57:44
Jen
Did you hear that listeners? He thinks you're all idiots. We
00:57:47
Red D
You know, this is interesting because...
00:57:48
Jamie
Not all of you, just there might be some. We're okay having some idiots in.
00:57:53
Red D
I think I mentioned there's a podcast that I really enjoy called The Date with Dateline, which I think is the closest I've come in style to our podcast, which it seems, to be fair, they do do editing.
00:58:02
Jen
have a style.
00:58:04
Jamie
Yeah, can you articulate our style in three words?
00:58:04
Red D
I mean, our style is no editing.
00:58:08
Red D
Freeform, no editing to it. I don't know.
00:58:12
Jen
Oh my God.
00:58:13
Red D
um But it is funny, interesting listening to them because... I hear them say stuff and i'm like, I know what they meant, but the wrong words came out their mouth, which you know happens to me all the time. And I'm like, oh, it's kind of nice to hear that that happens to other people.
00:58:28
Red D
That's all I want to say.
00:58:29
Jamie
Hmm.
00:58:30
Jen
yeah and you and you you do know what people mean and it's it's like when you're learning um not a new language but say your native language as you grow up um you learn what words are, not because someone's telling you them or or you're looking up definitions, but because you can understand from context and then next time then you can use that word.
00:58:51
Jen
do you know what i mean? Like it's, but it's not conscious thought process.
00:58:53
Red D
Yeah, yeah.
00:58:54
Jen
If that makes any sense.
00:58:55
Jamie
Hmm.
00:58:55
Jamie
It's
00:58:57
Red D
Definitely, definitely.
00:58:59
Jen
I just put down loads of, um you know, disease themes, you know, epidemics, disease life cycles, medical science fiction, and that was it really. What about you, Jay? Any themes come to mind?
00:59:15
Jamie
Again, because this didn't learn so well with me, so it didn't sort of strike so many chords. Um, I know there's a little bit of every sort of, oh plague at sea sort of thing, plus elements of gross out, but no i think i'll I think your themes are better than mine this week.
00:59:44
Jen
I also have this like feeling like that there are other themes that are really of us that i I've missed but I don't know what they are today but if there are I'm glad you two I don't know if that makes any sense um
00:59:56
Jamie
Yeah. Yeah.
01:00:00
Red D
yeah i mean now you're likeable now i've got me thinking i'm like um unacknowledged attraction in paris or something from that tiny movement uh cultural differences from that tiny opening sequence yeah
01:00:16
Jen
Yeah, diplomacy, although not really, because I mean, most of it's not about it. What with the
01:00:22
Jamie
Do you reckon the virus and the crew of Voyager were prevented from a more positive outcome by cultural differences?
01:00:30
Jen
virus? Yeah.
01:00:36
Jen
what with the virus
01:00:39
Jamie
Yeah. The
01:00:43
Red D
I thought because the tactact with the originator of the impact.
01:00:45
Jamie
fence looking of contempt for the morony of that comment is priceless.
01:00:51
Jen
Well, we haven't yet established whether um viruses are living beings. Are they alive? They're just some RNA in a membrane.
01:01:04
Jen
Anywho,
01:01:04
Red D
Yeah, yeah, sorry. I was thinking that I got lost in thought.
01:01:07
Jen
there's a rhetorical you know thought question. a Star player, star player. um who
01:01:13
Red D
I'm ready, fine, if I, I'm ready.
01:01:14
Jen
Red's wedding. Excellent. Go to Red's wedding.
01:01:16
Red D
So I'm gonna give a joint, in defiance of Jamie's opening comments, I'm gonna give a joint style player to the doctor, Robert Picard. Sorry, I get confused.
01:01:30
Jamie
How can any anyone not succeed in Star Trek with Picard in their name?
01:01:30
Red D
Yeah,
01:01:34
Red D
yeah that's true. um
01:01:35
Jen
I'm
01:01:36
Red D
Janeway, because for the acting with the, ah non-green screen, but somehow put on top of them viruses.
01:01:43
Jen
going to use for you, but somehow.
01:01:49
Red D
They had to do combat. And I thought the doctor was pretty good but when he had to, like, inject the the virus. And then the Janeway, I thought she wasn't that good, but then she whipped out a knife and she stabbed the virus. And I was like, oh, that was pretty good. So they both get the award, the star player award from me.
01:02:08
Jen
Yeah, I mean,
01:02:08
Red D
for their acting with a non-existent entity in the scene, but pulling it off somehow.
01:02:17
Jen
I think I have to agree with you on both of those, Red. I think they would be my joint top two for this as well. um I guess slightly different reasons though.
01:02:28
Jen
um The Doctor, for as always, i know there was not much of it, but his comedy. um You know, I just, I love when he was going around the caves and he was keeping his open comms link and describing in great depth everything.
01:02:44
Jamie
Yeah, that so funny.
01:02:46
Jen
And Hector be told, Doctor, you know, you don't have to, why don't you just tell us when you find the aliens? Yeah.
01:02:51
Jamie
goes his comments of great detail, meaning not great detail, was hilarious.
01:02:57
Jen
Exactly. And then also, you know, all his work he does to basically, um you know, find an antigen and how to distribute it and all that stuff. and And also, yeah, Janeway, because, you know, Lara Croft, Janeway, it's awesome.
01:03:11
Jen
What about you, Jay?
01:03:14
Jamie
Yeah, I just think whichever whichever the virus managed to make it into the beach paradise did pretty well for themselves.
01:03:15
Jen
I just think which of the virus managed to make it into the beach paradise did pretty well for themselves.
01:03:22
Jamie
I yeah i don't think anyone else had as good a time for the entire episode.
01:03:22
Jen
Yeah. I don't think anyone has had as good time for the
01:03:28
Red D
Even if it was very short lived, I guess, before the
01:03:31
Jamie
Quality, not quantity, Redwynn. Quality, not quantity.
01:03:35
Jen
entire episode.
01:03:35
Red D
antivirus bomb went off. that was scar over
01:03:40
Jen
There's not a lot of options for Starplayer, to be fair, in this episode.
01:03:45
Red D
There were only three characters that were really involved. Yeah.
01:03:48
Jen
Yeah, like Dr. Jane Moon. Even Neelix wasn't in it for that long, really, was he?
01:03:52
Red D
Yeah.
01:03:52
Jen
Yeah. Yeah. So Jeremy chooses the virus. Excellent. Well, then we're done. And that is it, guys.
01:04:00
Red D
Very good.
01:04:01
Jamie
I'd like to raise a clarificatory point. I don't choose the virus as a collective. I only choose the elements of the virus that made it into the holodeck during that program.
01:04:12
Jen
Thank you for clarifying. Very helpful.
01:04:16
Jamie
I think it's important.
01:04:16
Red D
Acknowledged.
01:04:18
Jen
On that note, yes, acknowledged. On that note, where is our jingle red plays out?
01:04:22
Red D
Okay, pia I just wanted to just anyone remember anyone remember what episode we're covering next.
01:04:27
Jen
ah Yeah, I was thinking I should say that as the, you know, as the facilitator this week.
01:04:31
Jamie
What episode are we covering next?
01:04:32
Jen
I have forgotten. him
01:04:33
Red D
I think it's fair trade. Hmm. I wonder what that's going to be about. I look forward to reconvening.
01:04:39
Jamie
Ferengi.
01:04:41
Red D
It feels like it will have to have Ferengi, but you never know. ah
01:04:45
Jen
Seems likely.
01:04:46
Red D
Seems likely.
01:04:46
Jen
i don't remember it from the name.
01:04:47
Red D
No, me neither.
01:04:50
Jen
let's see. Hmm.
01:04:54
Red D
Sorry, guys. I'm very tired, but that was great and fun episode. And look forward to fair trade.
01:05:00
Jen
ones
01:05:02
Jen
And any update on the metrics, Red?
01:05:03
Red D
I think...
01:05:05
Jen
Who's listening? Wow.
01:05:07
Red D
Yeah, China, Australia, America, Spain, UK.
01:05:12
Jen
Bye.
01:05:13
Red D
And hang up. I'm going to hang up right now.