Transcript
Red D: one of them is
Jamie: I'm just going to reiterate my comment in the chat. Toxic masculinity FTW.
Red D: And Tha Purge.
Jamie: Oh, that purge. I was describing Jenny's workplace.
Jen: What was the description?
Red D: Tha Purge.
Jen: the the purge.
Red D: But Jamie spells it T-H-A-T-R-G-E.
Jen: better
Red D: That's why I'm pronouncing for the expression.
Jen: It's real, I'm very confused by the spelling. Oh, like the movie. Not that I've seen the movie, but I've heard things.
Red D: I don't know if you see the movies, but think we get the gist.
Jamie: Look team, I'm here trying to give a bit street cred to this podcast and make it, you know, touch on the deep gangster roots of Star Trek. And here you mob are taking the piss out of me for bringing such elements as the purge badly spelled in the endowment.
Jamie: I'm just saying, if we can't get behind in this, we're never going to get any credibility.
Red D: Yes. Well, Jamie, I have been planning on asking you what TV shows, sci-fi shows, horror films, this episode of Star Trek reminded you of because I'm sure there are lot of references that I do not get.
Red D: So I...
Jamie: I mean, can. just never really feel Star Trek does that well when it's pastiching the grimdark...
Jamie: No, that was it.
Red D: You've got to finish that one.
Jamie: I wasn't gonna have for you guys.
Jen: chill.
Red D: That was good timing, Jamie. That was end of the jingle.
Jen: I'm quite relieved that the jingle's end to be honest because I was struggling to for some reason this week hear Jamie over the jingle which is a loud jingle.
Red D: No, it was quite loud.
Jamie: Really? Gosh.
Red D: hope hope the voice mixing, sound mixing, fixes all that in the post-production. But I was also struggling.
Jen: No editing.
Red D: Oh no!
Jen: Oh I was going by.
Jamie: It's back! Yes! More jingle! More jingle!
Red D: It's gone, it's gone.
Jen: You can truly tell you're on no edit.
Jamie: Red, are you listening to a recording of the podcast while recording the podcast? Because that's pretty meta.
Red D: That's very meta and I think my brain would explode, so no.
Jen: I think that the jingle was upset that we were, you know, dissing it. And so it felt like it had to come back and have a final say.
Jamie: since this this this
Red D: But yeah, Jingle has some emotions.
Jamie: is
Jen: Don't personify the jingle.
Red D: Yay.
Jen: um So this week we are discussing season three, episode 12, Macrogosm. And I'm very excited because I like this one. And I remember that I know that I say the title and I know exactly which one it was before I started watching.
Jamie: Yeah, yeah
Jen: I really like this one. So Jay, you want to start with the one minute summary?
Jamie: in a complete instance of the universe reversing in on itself, While the Captain and Neelix return from engaging with some of the most interpretative emo dance aliens imaginable, the Taktak, they return to a ship that resembles little more than a space Marie Celeste.
Jamie: They investigate and come across all the horrors of the Macrobiotic.
Jamie: zi
Red D: Very nice. as does Is Marie Celeste another word for ghost town?
Jamie: it's you Oh, have you never heard of the Marie Soleste?
Red D: Is it a ship that was found deserted in like 1770 or something?
Jamie: A ghost ship, Red. A ghost ship. You can't just say was found deserted like as's nothing when we're talking about this episode.
Red D: Okay. Okay.
Jamie: It might have been, you know, full of a macrobiotic alien virus that destroyed the crew, which was only stopped from destroying the rest of the Earth by the heroic sacrifice of, i don't know, Henry VIII's beard.
Jamie: It might have been.
Red D: I just wanted to translate for those of us who don't know that reference directly, but I think it made sense.
Jamie: one thing
Jamie: Everyone knows that reference directly. No plebeians listen to this podcast.
Red D: Hey, we have a varied geographic audience according to the stats I was saying.
Jamie: Yeah, geographically varied, not socioeconomically varied, said he in the voice of a gammon.
Red D: Ah.
Jen: Oh, wow. There's no sense of knowing what I read.
Jamie: No, you're quite right. So the Marie Celeste was ship ship. which was found floating deserted in the ah period I think, Henry the the Rain, I should say, of I believe, Henry VIII.
Jamie: And it was the second ship in the fleet of memory serves. And it was a great mystery as to how a ship had just been entirely deserted by its crew.
Red D: ah But like the MH370.
Jen: Mm, 317. Mm.
Red D: That
Jen: Mm.
Jamie: And the SS SS.
Red D: so one I don't know, but yeah.
Jen: Well, that was very helpful because I was just assuming what the Marie Celeste was from context because I did not know about that. I like it.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Thank you, Jamie. So initial reactions.
Jamie: That's a good one.
Jen: I'm the only one to have written something.
Red D: I like to leave my initial reactions for an initial live reaction.
Jen: terribly miss
Jen: Oh, great.
Jamie: It's not.
Jen: I fully approve.
Red D: Sometimes I do.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Well, I guess just, just to put hold up a mirror or be in contrast to your reaction. I did not remember this for quite a long time, but it's not to say I didn't enjoy it, but i was like, is this like a, is that two parts episode, which is like the year of hell or something?
Red D: Um, you know, that one i was like, is this that, uh, so I was a bit, it didn't come back to me immediately.
Jen: yeah
Red D: But I did enjoy it. So yeah, I guess that was my next reaction. Sorry, Jamie. over d
Jen: What about you, Jay?
Jamie: So as mentioned, I never really think that Star Trek does particularly well trying to embrace the grimdark and I'm not um not a thousand percent sure that this one landed for me. um I just sort of found the floating blobs a little bit, you know.
Jamie: How should we put this? Non-convincing.
Jen: and
Jamie: ah um
Red D: Jamie, this episode was filmed like 20 years ago. Doesn't that give it a bit of a grace?
Jamie: Red Dwarf still managed to be convincing all that time ago.
Red D: Wow.
Jamie: um and yeah, and there's sort of like elements of, oh, but we're magically saved at the end, which was a bit like this. Doesn't really mesh with the the slightly gritty feel of the entire thing.
Jen: Magic? No, it was like medical sci-fi. See, and this
Jamie: magic.
Jen: this is a this is what why is this leads on nicely to my initial reaction was that, oh, I like this. It's one of my favorites. But I think that's understandable because it's it's got a little bit of sort of medical disease, disease life cycle, epidemics, treatment kind of element to it, which I always find kind interesting.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: Yes, you're our resident ah medical medical expert, so it makes sense that you would like this one.
Jen: It's very worrying that that you would think of me in that way. I have no medical training.
Red D: I think in the context of the three of us, you're definitely the resident.
Jen: Okay, good. just It needs that clarifying factor. you
Red D: In the context of many other people as well, so yeah.
Jen: um Yeah, for me also, as well as the medical stuff, you get Tomb Raider Janeway.
Red D: Yes.
Jen: think she looks hot. Or not just hot, I think she looks tough, which like.
Red D: Yeah, we get to see her biceps.
Jamie: Tomb Raider or Sigourney Weaver from Alien pastiche?
Jen: Yeah, I think definitely that element too, but for me it's more of a Tomb Raider kind of.
Red D: Okay, so now my homework for the weekend or the next few weeks is to watch.
Jen: It's too much.
Red D: Oh, I'm getting bit of an epic guy. Maybe I'll my head on.
Red D: Is to watch Tomb Raider and Alien, which I've never seen. which I don't want anyone to understand about.
Jamie: You've never seen Aliens?
Red D: So let's just move on from that quickly, please.
Jamie: Wait, you've never seen... Wait, which is more shocking? You've never seen Tomb Raider if you've never seen Alien.
Red D: I mean, I played the little video game Tomb Raider, but yeah.
Jamie: I suppose you want a teenage boy so you can be forgiven for not going and watching it as well.
Red D: Well, I just didn't watch a lot of movies and I still haven't watched lot of movies, I guess.
Jen: I mean, I'm not sure Tomb Raider is that fantastic, really. I mean, um I prefer the Janeway version of it, personally.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: There we are. Cool. So noticed we have one cool thing from someone.
Red D: I do want to watch it. Yeah, can you hear me? There is an echo. What's going on? do want watch
Jen: What's happening? Red, can you hear us?
Red D: yeah can hear me
Jen: I can hear you. Yes, good.
Jamie: Just an echo though.
Red D: there is an echo what's going on
Jen: Oh, I can put headphones on if needed. i just need to run together.
Jamie: Well, I don't know if it is red and now it seems to have gone, so maybe some sound damping has happened. Or you're on mute. Say something.
Red D: I muted myself, but I think it's kind of maybe everything sorted out itself out now.
Jamie: How un-life-like.
Jen: Okay, let me know if it happens again. I'm running out headphones in this, you know, very professional of podcasts.
Jamie: Hey, we're pros.
Jen: o
Jamie: We can get the job done.
Jen: So I was saying someone's got one cool thing to say. Who is it? is anyone going to own up?
Red D: Oh yeah. Oh yes, oh my god, because this was like two weeks ago when I set this up, sorry, and then we postponed, I was like, someone has a cool thing.
Jen: i was thinking I'd have to read out. No, I didn't.
Red D: I was like, oh yes, I remember writing this. You know how I complain all the time about how I don't understand star dates and all this kind of stuff, and like I think they just kind of 400.
Jamie: How do you not understand Stargate, dude? That's like, you know, anything Stardates?
Red D: Star dates, star dates. and like but i didn't realize on the wikipedia page each episode has the star date of when the episode is happening which i think is quite a cool i even though i look on that wikipedia page every time i set up an episode i just notice it for the first time so yeah it's like so this was star date uh 50165.2
Jen: I'm like, I don't know. Even
Jamie: Hmm...
Jen: though we don't know if it could be a patient.
Jamie: That is hysterical. Seriously.
Jen: I'm going to. I mean, I love that. i But I also don't understand the dates. So that's no meaning for me. I don't have to learn how the dates...
Red D: Yeah, I mean, now that I'm like, I've noticed that I'm like, maybe i can pay more attention each episode that I look at and then I'll kind of absorb what that means. But I also don't know what it means yet. But yeah, it's on the Wikipedia page.
Jen: This is true.
Jamie: Mm-hmm.
Jen: That's a good idea. Maybe I'll try and do that as well.
Red D: Mm-hmm.
Jen: I'm always wishing that there were more regular, like, allusions to... well how much time they've been stuck in the Delta Coral. I'm always wondering and how long they've been now and how long they've been now. And they don't tell you that often.
Red D: That's true. They could have had it at the start of the episode. like I guess... I mean, are you supposed to believe it's one week later every time? Is that how TV was supposed to be? Or... Because sometimes I feel like it's more time has passed.
Jen: Exactly.
Red D: So...
Jen: Yeah. I never knew exactly if it was supposed to be one week later or not.
Jen: Anywho, that is a very Cool, one cool thing Red. Thank you for that. So shall we go backwards?
Jen: Go backwards. So come up Red goes first.
Jamie: Oh gosh.
Red D: Okay, I mean, by going backwards, we risk, so like, triggering a inter-podcast war.
Jamie: We might need to reboot each of our individual you know microchips and we can't handle this.
Red D: um But in the opening scene, we had, I guess, Neelix and Janeway returning from some kind of away mission with a tuk-tuk, which reminds me of TikTok, but that's a separate thing.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: um And it turns out, like, Janeway obviously unintentionally and offended someone by adopting the power pose.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: I
Jen: don't know I'm going to put it up.
Jamie: Yes. this is
Red D: and putting her hands on her hips and that was incredibly rude and Neelix had to apologize and all this kind of stuff and Neelix obviously adapted to their language and culture pretty well but on the way back I have to say Jamie and I'm very sorry for saying this because I know how much you don't like this character but when Neelix said something like it seemed like more than a language and then he like elaborated on what he meant it's not like exactly like something Jamie would say on a podcast so he reminded me really really A lot of Jamie in that moment.
Jen: It's not going to be a good thing.
Jen: Can I
Jamie: any by way all
Jen: can i just clarify, that sounded like Jenny or Jamie?
Red D: Jamie, Jamie.
Jen: ah Okay.
Jamie: yes and this to annoy me because She's trying to say that I sound like Neelix.
Red D: No, not most of the time, but the way he said, like,
Jamie: eyes She's trying to say that I sound like Neelix and now she's trying to avoid a fight she doesn't have encourage her convictions. i Get out of that one. So I would like to robust rebut with the words of Neelix, the captain, in that moment.
Jamie: Reds are embarrassing me, or captain are embarrassing me, which was like, this is hysterical. So I will dive in with my point, which was, no wonder Voyager are both in the situation they are and indeed struggling to get back, if Neelix is the better ambassador, then their skipper.
Jamie: Because if that's the case, I would just like to suggest it's no surprise that they haven't managed to wangle a lift back to the Delta Quadrant from Q, for instance.
Jen: Servile.
Red D: I have to rebut this point, sorry Jane.
Jamie: So, before you say anything else, afraid you're embarrassing
Red D: Yes, but is he the better ambassador because he's so vile and is allowing this other culture so vile?
Jamie: Is he so what? He's so what? Vile! That's a bit...
Red D: So vile.
Jen: levile
Jamie: Oh, I thought you were saying he's so vile, and I was like...
Red D: You really need to rein in your hatred for Deluxe.
Jamie: ah know I don't like him, but I don't describe him as vile, just, you know, ridiculous and stupid and ironic, but never vile, not morally vile.
Jen: Oh.
Jamie: um So you think he's so vile, do you?
Red D: Well, Janeway just expects a little bit more like grace and you know like give and take in an intercultural exchange, whereas Neelix knew how to like do exactly everything that the other culture wanted to get them back on side, which didn't require the other side to have any grace or give and take.
Red D: So who's really the better person?
Jen: Mm.
Jamie: Tell you what, Red, next time that we stop in the Delta Quadrant, you can be on the shuttle that has Neelix as Skipper, and I'll be on the shuttle that has Janeway as Skipper. Now, yes, I will drive her crazy.
Red D: You would be dead!
Jamie: I will drive her crazy, and she might well boot me out the airlock, but I'm pretty sure my shuttle makes it back before yours does.
Red D: Deal.
Jamie: Yeah. Possibly because she sold my organs off, but that's a different question. She's always putting herself before the crew. um Jenny, I think that makes it your one, doesn't it?
Jen: Wow, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of...
Red D: Sorry.
Jen: We're not even having a discussion about this one with the agency
Jamie: A little unpackaged there, and we're not even having a discussion about this one with the aliens who collect people's organs.
Jen: Oh, yeah, you did remind me of them when you mentioned about the organs.
Jamie: Well, then that would be who she'd sell my organs to.
Jen: Oh, they're horrible. um I do like that opening scene, I've got to say. um Yeah, it's quite hilarious the way Leelix is having this conversation with the TAC-TAC and then Janeway tries to apologise and he says, Captain, please!
Jamie: with a TikTok.
Jen: it just I like that. It's funny. um And Leelix gets a promotion. I mean... you
Jamie: I mean, does does he get a promotion?
Jen: I
Jamie: It feels more like he's getting it, you know, dangled to keep his hopes up, but not that he actually gets promoted.
Jen: think it's I think it's official.
Red D: I think this is official because from i from what I remember, he's now the ambassador, right Jenny?
Jen: Yeah, it's going from officer to ambassador. say that's an pro information.
Red D: I guess we'll see in the future episodes, but I think it was a real promotion.
Jen: It's very important that HR gets paperwork and, you know, all that nonsense. um So my point is just, oh, I might have already said it a little bit. I just really like this episode.
Jen: really like the concept of the macro virus and how it infects people and then it multiplies and it grows by stealing the host's growth hormone. And I just think there's a lot of, like, little concepts from real life episodes.
Jamie: suspicious
Jen: viruses and disease all woven into one with a little bit of um just artistic license and imagination thrown in as well. And I just love that combo. I think it's quite creative. And it's all very like thought provoking as well about how, you know, disease is always evolving, right?
Jen: And and how obviously, I'm not suggesting it will one day e evolve into what we see here on the show. But it does make you think about how it could change in the future and and epidemics and viral pathogens.
Jamie: Well, it's actually rather similar to the vision of the Grimdott Warhammer 40,000 universe of the sort of plague flies and followers of a deity, know it well, you know, a chaos entity known as Nurgle, which is honestly some of the most revolting sounding fantasy literature descriptions I've ever heard of in my life. But the whole, you know, fly that bursts out of someone's neck and then sort of starts growing growing until it's enormous and chasing around with, you know, a stinger, that's very from that particular bit of the Warhammer canon.
Jen: Well, I think a lot of it's from actual science though, because that bit in particular reminds me of a particular, sorry.
Jamie: we have i'll just see it Do we have germs that large
Jen: No, no, but so um interesting, Jamie, it's a real um coincidence, but this, that particular aspect of it, the way it, um it will sort of, it'll look like an ulcer or a pus, something on your skin and then, and then actually the organism will come out. Um,
Jen: weirdly we were watching an episode of vr ah the other night and they've an actual real life disease where that happens it's not a fly that comes out it's like ah a worm and they have to pull pull the worm out and in particular they have to pull the worm out only two centimeters per day um for the many days until they get the whole thing out because you can't just pull it all out at once because then it it like breaks off and bits of it die so
Jamie: yeah yeah yeah the
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: m Yeah, I mean, it sounds horrible, doesn't it? It's all very horrifying, but it's all just really interesting, I think, as well. And I just think they had all these interesting elements, um especially because viruses, right?
Jen: There's a sort of question over whether they're living.
Jamie: Um.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: you know what mean? Like they're they have RNA in them, but they're not.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: As in, do they want to keep on living? Or do you mean as in they're living?
Jen: No, as in, are they a living organism?
Red D: Oh.
Jen: Because they're not they they have ah RNA. there's there's From what I um recall, and my memory is very foggy on this, but they're basically like a a cell membrane with some ah RNA strands in them.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: um So, yeah, but they're not like...
Red D: That's ringing a bell.
Jen: They're very difficult to classify. You wouldn't necessarily say they were alive, but they're sort of in inbe between. They're not as they're not dead. and They're not not alive in the sense that, you know, like an inanimate object like a chair is
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: But yeah, they're just a really kind of interesting, um well, whatever they are. um
Red D: Yeah, that is interesting.
Jen: So I just felt i thought, I thought about learning, a bit going into virology a bit more like many, many years ago, because ah I just found them quite fascinating, which is probably another reason I like this episode.
Jen: Even though I accept it as all total medical sci-fi, and I'm not really suggesting that giant macroviruses are going to fly around, you know, killing everyone.
Jamie: aren't
Jen: Well, who knows?
Red D: We hope not. We can only hope and pray.
Jamie: they? I've seen no evidence to prove that they won't.
Red D: 2026, some people might say it's already been pretty big year. So let's save that for have giant flying viruses, then I have to have, sorry, my own weapons.
Jamie: yes
Jen: Yeah, want to jinx it. I mean...
Jamie: I'd kind of quite like to get it out of the way. I mean, it feels a bit weird. Like two weeks ago, we had a weekend when we weren't at war, for instance.
Red D: My own laser weapons. Just putting that out there.
Jamie: I think it's time to dust off the zombie escape plan.
Jen: i
Jen: I do have comments about the weapons later on, actually.
Red D: Just think.
Jen: But shall we go to you next, Red?
Red D: Yeah, sorry, that doesn't remind me.
Jen: and one
Red D: This is very random and I always talk about other podcasts, but I listen to, I sometimes watch this like crime talk with Scott Reich. Please nobody judge me on YouTube in the morning when I'm getting ready. And one of his sponsors or products that he recommends, there's a few things.
Red D: Like there's always like these background checks that you can do on people. Like um in America, you can do like extensive background checks but i that I don't think you can do in the UK. And then he's always got like these, I guess, emergency...
Red D: like there's these companies that have a subscription service for like a emergency box, like, and you just basically collect supplies every month in case one day there's some kind of apocalypse, which I'm like, I don't have space in my flat to store that.
Jen: Really?
Red D: So I can't do that. But it's amazing that there's a company that does that. Anyway, sorry, that just reminded me. And you can get like three months supply of food that doesn't go off for like 25 years and all this kind of stuff.
Jamie: It's
Red D: It's like,
Jamie: it's basically for preppers then, right?
Red D: Yeah, it's for preppers. Yeah, I guess preppers is the extreme. I guess, i mean, if you're in an area that gets hit by, like, very bad weather, you might also want some of this stuff.
Jen: Yeah. Yeah.
Red D: So, yeah.
Jen: we did yeah
Jamie: I mean, it becomes more and more plausible.
Red D: All I could think was, like, my flat. Yeah, my flat is very designed for daily shopping. It's not designed for storing stuff and prepping.
Jamie: that Or a siege situation in which the entire block has banded together to hold off you know a ravening horde of zombies.
Red D: Yeah, I guess in a siege situation and we could collaborate. Okay,
Jamie: You just need to you know break out the handguns.
Red D: okay the lasers, the lasers.
Jen: written We haven't..
Jamie: let's you know next
Jen: Yes,.
Red D: Sorry, on to my next point. When this episode started, I was like, wait a minute, is this a buddy comedy in the style of Rush Hour or something like that where you have the mismatched kind of police colleagues like Jackie Chang and, oh, who's the other guy?
Jen: mr ro
Red D: Yes, Chris Rock. Because we have Janeway and Neelix, who are very opposite-style characters.
Jen: okay
Red D: Then she, at some point, dropped Neelix. Then she was on her own.
Jen: I'm coming to the territory.
Red D: So then i was thinking more to Raider Alien. Then she picked up another buddy in the form of a Doctor.
Jamie: she was totally alien the entire time
Red D: but but I do think there was a very funny line at the start that made me think oh it could be going into buddy comedyary comedy territory until it went into um more serious territory which was something about along the lines of um well Ambassador we've got an unexpected guest from Janeway and the ex's response which was like I don't think he's the diplomatic type after he's just been given the promotion which I enjoyed
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. of Yeah. I really loved it.
Jen: then yes yeah no elements of horror I was thinking it's more diehard that kind of line more than John Wayne
Jamie: I thought there was, you know shades of John Wayne Western as she says that. We've got an unexpected guest and I think he's the diplomatic type. And, you know, spats about the juice.
Red D: That so good!
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: But then I went into more like horror-ish? I mean, not but not very scary horror, but I think it...
Jamie: yeah John Wayne knows Bruce thing
Jen: Like the yippee-gay-ay, motherfucker.
Red D: Yeah, that's also a good...
Jamie: I don't think he's the diplomatic type motherfuckers yeah I don't know
Red D: good
Jen: her Yeah, I really enjoyed the ghost comedic elements. And a little bit of the Doctor's later A little bit of Doctor comedy in there as well.
Jamie: Yeah, I mean, could I, if it if we've if it's my time to come in, yeah, i was going to say, could we talk about how the Doctor is dumb enough to suggest beaming one of the miners on board the actual ship?
Jen: It's your turn. I was going to say, when I thought about how the Doctor was dropping off, was it
Jamie: Like, the Doctor's confidence seriously has to be called into question this episode, because A, he suggests bringing an infected person onto a ship, which is just mega thick.
Jamie: And then even when he doesn't bring the infected person onto the ship, he still manages to bores up the bio purge so that the actual infection gets on the ship.
Jen: Oh my God, you're going steal my main point.
Jamie: because
Jamie: I haven't even seen, like, competence questions massively, massively called there. That was my point.
Jen: Yeah, no. um Yeah, I mean, i think the first one is sort of, they try to explain it a little bit in that he was, his, you know, it's like a Hippocratic oath.
Jamie: Build, build.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: He tries to save life and so he he wants to save the miners life.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: and But yeah, realistically, you'd think he'd be also programmed to
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: protect against infection of the rest of the group.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: But no, my main, my main, my main issue here is I am not at all impressed with the process of bio filtering. Like, I think, I think there is some serious artistic license going on because there is no way like, first of all, why on earth would you wait for the transportee to get themselves back to the controls to purge the filters?
Jamie: yeah hu
Jen: And especially because there was already someone at the controls who could have done it much quicker.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: So there's like this three second gap. That's like completely ah like why was the reason for that?
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And then also, I just think surely you'd beam the transportee into a containment field and then, and then, you know, purge it and you know, like basically there's biohazard protocols in the real world that are,
Jen: more thought through and better processed processes than what they've done there.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: like so I was just, I i just think that the protocols need a thorough reviewing. That's my run over.
Red D: I mean, yeah I think because what we learn is that the doctor has been studying the away ah mission protocols and there is a specific protocol for a medical emergency on alien terrain.
Red D: So should of like, which he did study and
Jamie: Yeah, and he's theoretically like a machine, not a lot machine, but like he's a computer programmer. It should be like, rule, follow it.
Red D: Yeah, and I mean, it's funny that Chakotay was way more insistent and knew the rules better than a program that we should understand.
Jamie: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Red D: He was like, at least trying his best, like, no, you cannot beam a supposed abort. No, you cannot beam a sample off of the virus abort.
Jamie: yeah
Jen: go ahead and see what I'm doing.
Red D: Like, no, no, no
Jamie: yeah
Red D: But I think you're right, Jenny. There was a bit of a loophole or something in the process.
Jen: Yeah, ah artist I forgive them though because I really like this episode and, you know, they had to somehow get the ship infected for the episode to, you know, happen. soon
Jamie: It could have been hit by a meteorite that had the virus from Resident Evil on it.
Red D: Yes, that's true.
Jen: Yeah, but then you wouldn't have the really cool element of the sort of horror element where there's, they first discover a population that has already been
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: like massively decimated or it's some unknown disease or it looks really serious and scary it's killing everyone we must make sure it doesn't come onto our you know but there's like that element of you know that it's going to happen and the sort build up to it um which i quite like which you want me to
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Jamie: I don't want drama. I want competence from my medical staff. And the only one who shows any competence this episode is Kez.
Red D: But actually, sorry, now that we're talking about it more, it makes me think because obviously the doctor is very swayed by that um when he goes to the planet, the mining colony or whatever, and that person comes out and is like, oh, please take save me whatever.
Red D: And he is really swayed by that person's argument.
Jamie: Yep.
Red D: That is terrible decision-making from an algorithm.
Jamie: Yep.
Red D: but I'm just going to say.
Jamie: Yep.
Jen: Yep. Yep.
Red D: Like, you should be like, no there's 170 people back on Starship that I have to make sure don't get sick and die.
Jen: yeah it
Red D: Yes.
Jen: I did have like another um point that I wrote down, but then I deleted it because it was going to be like a question to you guys, like, why is this like this? And then I answered it myself. But um basically, i at first I was like, and also, is this an artistic license thing? Why is it the doctor afraid of the macroviruses? Because he's a hologram.
Jamie: Yeah, I was like, what the fuck?
Jen: Well, then I realized that the, yeah,
Red D: yes
Jamie: But his emitter can be destroyed. Chakotu fed it so that there wasn't a fothole.
Jen: and yeah And I realised actually that mobile omitted thing is quite a good um like storytelling creating device because it allows the doctor to be not totally invulnerable to everything.
Jamie: Pothovite.
Jen: um So he can't like always come and save the day.
Jamie: They do seem to make a point off that any time the Doctor is there to sort of give him points of vulnerability. use So when he's 90s era Earth, the guy who can torture him by actually pressing a button on his emitter and then this, his emitter getting damaged.
Jen: yes
Jamie: It's a useful plot device, I agree.
Jen: And the fact that if he something happens to the mobile emitter while he's out of the, you know what do call it, holodeck, then his program will be lost, which is basically he dies. They add jeopardy to the doctor's life um in a creative way.
Red D: Yeah, that is very clever because they're giving him more scope and freedom, but more risk. So it comes at a cost, that's good.
Jamie: yeah ah Otherwise you just send the doctor in to sort out every situation the way that you you know you're going to send drones in to every situation now.
Red D: ah I don't know if it's just me, but Jamie, are we getting a quote I'm getting a big echo from you, but I don't think it really matters. So I'm just gonna say, like I think when and everything gets produced at the end, it will be fine, but so...
Red D: um I don't know, Jenny, if you're getting the same thing from Jamie. a bit of a ah
Jen: um' not getting anything but i'm happy to go grab some headphones if it's distracting
Red D: No, I don't think really matters because our audio is uploaded locally and then combined. So as long as it's not bothering you during the podcast, and that's fine.
Jen: i know i haven't heard it at all at any point for some reason i'm immune um cool well then back to you reg
Red D: OK, great.
Red D: OK, let me just bring up my notes. Okay, so, i mean, maybe we've discussed this before, actually, but um I'm glad to see Nelix's podcast is still going, or his YouTube channel. Oh, no, I'm going to...
Jamie: That's so grim, you sort of come in and the thing to bring horror is like an endlessly repeating reel of Neelix.
Red D: Yeah, in ah Ensign Wildman's quarters, she's been watching. She's one of his most devoted listeners, which made me think it's more like a podcast or a YouTube channel than just a normal news broadcast.
Red D: So a very early prototype, yeah.
Jen: definitely
Red D: So I enjoyed that, but yeah, that was my, that's all I had to say about it. Just more like, oh yeah, he's like an influencer. He's a little influencer on Starship Voyager. Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, and it's still going on. It's still going strong.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: So, it's doing well. Excellent. Jamie, over to you again.
Jamie: I would like to engage with the fact that how enjoyably flouncily emo are the tak-tak.
Jen: on.
Jen: Come on. Come
Jamie: It's just so much drama any time they say anything or do anything. For those who can't see this podcast because we're not filmed, I'm pulling a pose every time I say something.
Jen: on. Yeah, I like that as well. The gestures are part of the language, not just the words.
Jamie: It's sort of all, you know, dramatically posed, which I very much enjoy. And maybe that's why the captain doesn't go down so well, because she doesn't really do drama, she's just business, whereas they're dramatic and its absence is rude.
Jen: sister yeah i i like that as well they their gestures are part of their language not just the words
Red D: Yeah, I did like that. I didn't think of it as the emo angle, but it there is, I mean, they had quite, what's the word, overt body language to go with each message, which must be pain to learn if you didn't grow up with that, but um it was fun to watch, for sure.
Jamie: They're a vibe.
Jen: It's sort of like learning, it must must be what considered one of the hardest languages in the universe to learn.
Red D: Yeah, I...
Jen: You're learning two languages at once, aren't you? Because it's a bit like learning sign language whilst also learning a new verbal language.
Red D: And I wonder if there's actually like a dual track or like parallelism, i don't know that's the right word, where you could say something, but your body is saying something else. So you're like, yes, I accept your apology, but your body language is like, I definitely do not.
Jen: Oh.
Red D: And you'll be banished forever.
Jamie: like when you say something with your voice but the way that you say it says something opposite like I accept your apology
Jen: or sorry you know not really sorry i like
Red D: Yeah, exactly.
Jen: yeah or sorry you know not really sorry
Jamie: or I know what your heart meant when you say to someone i accept your apology and they said I never apologised no no no that was a line from Deadpool actually
Red D: That wasn't a diggin journey.
Jen: a
Jen: I kind of lost lost the... I did not see that one.
Red D: Lost track.
Jen: Yeah, I lost track of that one.
Jamie: I accept your apology, Jenny.
Red D: That's fair.
Jen: Sorry?
Jamie: I said i accept your apology.
Jen: I said I accept your apology. Oh, well, good. I'm glad.
Red D: I'm just going to go on the record and say, I don't think Deadpool is very good.
Jen: haven't seen it, but Jamie advises me I would like it.
Red D: The end.
Jen: yeah i haven't seen it but ja
Jamie: Okay, unrelatedly, HR have just emailed something about we need to talk about the personnel on this podcast.
Jen: maybe he advises me i would like
Jamie: I'm sure it's nothing in our case, but you know, Red, say I'd probably start polishing up my CV if I was here, just just based on those last comments.
Red D: Uh oh. I've been cancelled.
Jamie: <unk> as you
Jen: I think that feels good.
Red D: I love Ryan Reynolds from Two Guys, A Girl, and A Pizza Place.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: Do I think that pulls very good?
Jen: I mean, HR on one stick when...
Red D: Nah.
Jamie: I mean ah HR or once again sending me non-specifically passive aggressively menacing emails about career limitation due to association with quote unquote people in inverted commas.
Jen: our problem
Jen: non-specifically passive aggressive.
Jamie: So yeah, that ah probably outlines my position on the whole position you have of Deadpool not being very good.
Red D: Oh dear, the cat's elated is spreading. Sorry, Jamie.
Jamie: Not a critic, not a cancellation, just good solid HR process.
Jen: So, i think it's me. um And i'm I'm afraid, even though I like this episode, I did not write many comments, so is sort of my last one. But I'll try and think of some ones. Basically, i do love the Tomb Raider Janeway.
Jen: That is brilliant. I am a bit confused as to where all the weaponry comes from. And these like giant bazookas that basically... See you again. you know like Is there a secret stash of weapons and kit and stuff that we don't know about in voyager that they basically never need to use again for colonies
Jamie: Can I be an absolute teenager and reference the the things that made Tomb Raider famous when I was a teenager? In the sort of comment would have made, can I just be specific, when you talk about General's bazookas, you are talking about weaponry.
Jen: yes um that was
Jamie: Right, I thought I'd ask the question.
Jen: that was
Red D: But we see, we have the little scene in where she, I think she's in engineering and you know, like they have that like jewel, what's that word?
Jamie: Well, everywhere seems to have weapons caches when they're boarded, doesn't it?
Jen: weapons ca is when the board edge doesn't it it's just that
Jamie: It's just they're hidden under panels.
Red D: Because she opens that big like chest and pulls out the bazooka as you call it Jenny.
Jen: because that was a big one train.
Red D: But I think that was an engineering.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: Phrasing!
Jen: I mean, I don't know. It might not be a bazooka. I mean, I'm not exactly up to speed on gun and linguistics, guys, but the the big thing.
Jamie: more big rifle.
Jen: um Yeah, I just don't think i've so we ever see them using that and again, but I could be wrong. Don't they just always lasers, apart from this episode?
Jamie: when When did this episode come out and when did Aliens come out?
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: Just because like there were strong similarities that were being referenced there.
Red D: I think that's always a good question.
Red D: I can find out when the episode came out and then if you can find out when Alien came out. It was ah between 1996 and 97.
Jamie: Aliens came out...
Red D: No. Yeah.
Jamie: Oh, Aliens was in 86, so maybe it was a 10-year anniversary thing.
Jen: Oh, nice.
Red D: so
Jen: That makes sense. I would be shocked if this came before Alien. like That would be really surprising. Because it does play as a bit of a...
Red D: yeah
Jen: um ah What's the word? You know when you're sort of venerating something.
Red D: Homage?
Jen: Say again?
Red D: Homage?
Jamie: Pastiche or homage?
Jen: ah Yeah, you know, like you're celebrating the um the original.
Red D: Homage.
Jen: by hi Yeah,
Red D: Yeah, which I mean, most TV writers love TV and films, so they will draw from, I think, the kind of fun influences, I presume.
Jen: I quite like that. um That was it really for mine. So we're back to you, Red.
Red D: Back to me. Okay. So I think my next point was when ah had a couple of references that are not going to be the same as Jamie, but they were, you know, when that you sometimes get, I guess, the perspective of the giant insect as it's like buzzing around Voyager.
Red D: And I was like, like it kind of like depths and rises, depths and rises, like a kind of a insect buzzing around.
Jen: Hmm.
Red D: which reminded me of some cartoon which I can't please but then when they come into the I guess it's the mess hall I think where a lot of the crews gathered and passed out or asleep or succumbed to the virus I was like ah the tsetse fly sleeping sickness like it all came like back to me which is something I haven't had to think about for a very long time since I've lived South Africa or Southern Africa
Jamie: Oh, we know the tzatzah. We know the tzatzah very well.
Red D: Yeah, but you, I mean, I remember learning about that, like, ah either at school or through literature, I can't really remember. But I was like, Oh, i wonder if this is all based on that concept a bit. Because, I mean, to be fair, you could just say those people had, were kind of a bit unconscious, because they were very ill.
Jen: and
Red D: But there's something about it that reminded me of the Zetsi Blythe's Leading Sickness.
Jen: yeah no i no I agree I think they definitely are just drawing on all kinds of different elements of different diseases and certainly in that aspect it's like the sleeping sickness isn't it yeah totally agree yeah yeah
Red D: Yeah, because no one is dying, but they are just kind of asleep. Which I think is a good thing.
Jen: yeah
Red D: I don't know how real sleeping sickness manifests. It's a long time since I learned about this, but yeah.
Jen: Yeah. No, Jamie and I remember the sexy floats from the safari.
Jamie: honeymoon just being so infestably.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Such fuckers. Like stinging up through shoes.
Jen: It's amazing what they can sting through.
Red D: shoot.
Jen: Yeah, yeah well, that was the amazing one.
Jamie: Yeah, like shoes, shirts... Yeah. Yeah, they stinging me through a set trainers.
Jen: i was... six
Jamie: They...
Red D: Oh my god. I'm never going back to Africa.
Jamie: like...
Red D: every
Jen: You know,
Red D: I am from South Africa, listeners.
Jen: you
Red D: I go there every year.
Jamie: WHAT?! YOU'RE FROM SOUTH AFRICA?! WHAT?! WHAT?! NO!
Red D: I'm like, in London there are no insects and I've kind of got it used to this lifestyle so so I don't know if I can go back to it.
Jamie: I mean, again, feel that...
Red D: And that one time I cycled through the highlands there were no midges. So that was lucky, I believe, but
Jen: Oh, lucky.
Red D: I'm so grateful. That's all I can say.
Jen: Yeah. Absolutely. So, Jamie.
Jamie: Right.
Jen: Over to you.
Jamie: Hang on, just consulting my notes here.
Jen: like
Jamie: i was just going say the Sigourney Waiver homage slash pastiche, which to me is the strongest of the sort of homages that I get from this, um to the point where I'm quite surprised they didn't get sued for creative infringement.
Jamie: um Yeah, how the Doctor, the Emo Aliens. I just, do we really, I mean my last thing is just really to ask, do we really think that it lands like as Star Trek grimdark?
Jamie: Because like, there's a bit of an element of everything goes to pot but it's fine by the end of the episode. You're a bit like, would it be fine?
Jen: would it be fine i was really curious about it when you mentioned that earlier because um to me it's like but there are episodes like that that i think but this is for me definitely not one of them like it really because they they he synthesizes an antidote
Jamie: I refer to growing out of flies that come out of people's necks, that's pretty grim, dog.
Jen: oh so you mean more as the overall atmosphere they're going for, not how the episode resolves.
Jamie: Well, I sort of feel like the way it resolves undermines the ah the atmosphere they've been driving.
Red D: But if it's all scientifically driven, then it's kind of plausible. Right?
Jen: Yeah, I mean, he he takes a ah ah you know bit of the virus and uses it to synthesize an antidote, and then he inoculates everyone.
Red D: ail
Jamie: Come on, it's friends, come on, it's not magic.
Jen: And that seems very like sort of logical and and scientific to me. um and it's a nice clean cut resolution um but maybe it doesn't fit with the atmosphere you're talking about jake is it's um you know every everyone's fives and is fine and covered and um i guess if it was truly one of these sort of dark horror episodes then you know only one person would survive
Red D: But if we think a little bit in the context of our recent pandemic, coronavirus, and like you're more at risk, I guess, you're older, it and no one on the crew is old, they're all healthy, young, service.
Jen: Yeah, I was a bit like, why does it have to be bomb?
Jamie: You're right, they should have all been made to self-isolate in their quarters.
Jen: That's really weird. I don't understand why you
Red D: I'm just trying like, make it seem more reasonable, but Maybe that like anti-virus bomb at the end in the holotech was a little bit of a stretch.
Red D: Yeah, they
Jen: yeah i was a bit like why is it have to be a bomb that's really weird' understand why he would exclude
Jamie: Why can't it just be like a scent diffuser?
Jen: yes and But they've got to add, like I say, it's ah this artistic license in this kind of thing.
Red D: got one hour to tell a story. So the bomb was quicker.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: bomb it is, I suppose children, a bomb it is.
Jen: I'm just trying to think what else I can, it's back to me. And I've kind of, even though I really enjoyed this episode, ran out points. um So I might have to just, I just add on to whatever you guys say, because you whenever you but say your points, they're always really interesting and they always like inspire other thoughts. So I'm going to hand back to Red.
Red D: Yeah, so let me think. Let me see. So, I mean, I think we already covered this a lot of detail, but, and as you pointed out, Jenny, from that ERI episode, there's already a version of this probably in real life, but the idea of insects emerging from an orifice on the side of my neck was pretty gross.
Jen: I'm sorry, been working many
Red D: I mean, that really brought about some visceral reactions while was watching this episode. I don't know how you guys found it.
Jen: Oh yeah, yeah, really. It's a really disgusting. Yeah, concept.
Red D: I think it's like as a kid you grow up and you like start to learn about the concept of like worms and like I don't know if this is true but like remember I don't know if you've been learning this I've eaten a lot of sushi since I was a kid but as a kid I remember learning not learning like through the myth grapevine that like if you ate sushi you get brain worms or something I don't know
Jen: Oh, yeah. I mean, they do exist, but I think they're really, really rare.
Red D: yeah so it's really tapping into that like kind of
Jen: Hmm.
Red D: There's an element of truth, but that also that kind of hyped up fear or like, um a what's the whole term I'm looking for? What's, I've gone blank, but those kind of fake stories that spread around as a kid.
Red D: And as it turns out, just spread around on social media now. But um yeah, it was ah when the little like things flutter out of the side of the neck, that was very disturbing for me.
Jen: no It's horrible, yeah. Horrifying. And it also, um unfortunately, always reminds me of like, oh yes, I must make sure the cats are fully worm.
Jen: Because you can actually get worms from your cat.
Red D: Yes. No, that I do know. That I do know. Yeah.
Jen: Which is horrifying. So, really don't want that happening.
Red D: Yes.
Red D: No.
Jen: No, I having some flashbacks.
Red D: And then, no, was going to, I was having some flashback to some terror.
Jen: That were terrible.
Jamie: Sorry.
Jen: our turn
Red D: Jamie, you back with us?
Jen: Jamie, you back with us?
Jamie: I mean, is ah is one ever truly back with one? um No, sorry. My internet died during a gust of wind. Outside,
Jen: Well, you're back at just the right time. It's back to you. Yeah.
Jamie: Well, actually, I've rather exhausted my points. So I, like you, Jay, am in the stage where we look Red to lead us. Lead us, Red. Lead us.
Jen: you
Red D: Okay. I think i have my last points are very minor, but I will say I did enjoy the little bit of Paris and Bologna banter in the idiom the mess hall before everything went to virus.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: But with I think he'd been cooking. I missed a little bit of it. And then like she was there to try and fix something and he was like, oh, don't know. There was like a little...
Jamie: You can't leave me! The natives are restive!
Red D: Yes. Planting little seeds maybe for later. But there's little banter back and forth, which I enjoyed.
Jen: yeah
Red D: Yes.
Jen: I think he was blaming the engineering for the cooking that he first, wasn't it?
Red D: Yes.
Jen: Yeah, I like that.
Jamie: And he wasn't wrong because the replicator was up the spout.
Red D: Yeah. And then later on it was actually quite nice when I guess they're now all collapsing and succumbing to this virus. I mean, not nice. And then him and Rolana are like near each other at the same table and I don't know. It's just planting some seeds for later, I guess.
Jen: It is it is. It's actually making me
Jamie: Looks.
Jen: think about a very specific Ballada Tom episode, which is like, that's going to be a really interesting one to discuss where you probably already know which one I'm thinking of. The one with Pon Far and all sorts of things.
Red D: Oh yes. Oh yes, that's so good.
Jen: Oh, God, there's a scene between Tom and Ballada.
Red D: That's so good.
Jen: Anyway, we'll get to that one
Red D: um And then I think they did a good job in terms of continuity on Janeway's arm of her like, you know, she gets bitten by the kind of insect or and then slowly her bite.
Jen: one. Yeah.
Jamie: So actually, I i have an element of plot incongruousness in that the moment that Janeway first presents herself to the Doctor on getting back to the ship, he scans her with the tricorder, but he scans the wrong arm.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: He scans the one that's had nothing happen to it.
Red D: Yes, I was wondering about that.
Jamie: um like
Jen: Oh.
Red D: So he picks up a broken rib and torn muscle, but not the bite, I think. is's a bit of a
Jamie: And like, it has like a massive bubo on it and everything.
Red D: Well, hook i can I tell you a funny story?
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: and this This goes back to ah me living in London and not encountering any insects.
Jamie: Only if it doesn't include you having an enormous bubo.
Red D: It does include me having an enormous fever.
Jen: it
Red D: Well, not quite that at all. No, I'm exaggerating, so that you let me tell the story. Let me tell the story, but I went to Nottingham to watch my friend play touch rugby. So I guess I was standing on the edge of like rugby fields for like a weekend.
Red D: And then like a few days later, i was back in London and I had like a sore, similar to what Janeway had, but much less aggravated, let's say, on like the front of my ankle.
Red D: And I was like, oh my God, what is...
Jamie: That sounds like a good weekend.
Red D: what is that? Like, oh my gosh, how like could that be like, whatever? So I like i took a picture and I Google lensed it and i was like, that's a mosquito bite. and I just hadn't had mosquito bite for so long that I forgot what a mosquito bite looks like.
Red D: And so I was like, oh, wow, I've been in London too long and not exposed to mosquitoes. Because i was just like, what is this sword? Anyway, that's my story.
Red D: And that's my point.
Jen: i mean you wouldn't necessarily expect it in nottingham though would you so i think i would might might wonder what it was i you
Jamie: Yeah, you'd just go far worse, wouldn't
Red D: Yeah, I mean, I didn't like come back from Rottingham thinking I'd be into the malaria capital the UK or something.
Jen: exactly so
Red D: I'd already thought about it, but but in hindsight, I was like outdoors, you know, for I don't know.
Jen: Yeah, yeah.
Red D: Sorry, Jamie, were saying something?
Jamie: you? No, I was just probably going to be smutty, so don't worry about it.
Red D: I was just very upset that, I mean, I grew up in South Africa, i got mosquito bites all the time and I forgot what mosquito bite looked like.
Jen: That's, it's a good thing, surely, you have been so little.
Jamie: I was so small it didn't even register on the scale of what you used to get back in South Africa.
Red D: that's hard I'm very pleased. I hate mosquitoes.
Red D: Yes. I'm very pleased. And my final point, which I will go, is the my two-piece, my favorite two-piece blue piece is back.
Red D: Because when they um I guess reignite the holodeck, they play the tropical paradise program and we get to see that.
Jen: Oh my god, that was hilarious.
Jamie: Oh, that was hysterical.
Jen: I forgot about that scene.
Red D: And I, yeah, who knows how many times that scene, but that like, program comes back, but yeah, so my favorite, that like, real, that like, turquoise blue, like sports bra, lycra leggings is really growing up, that's all I can say.
Jamie: Oh.
Jamie: Yeah. Stop, Léo. Right there.
Jamie: This, this, this.
Jen: i just think that is hilarious that they've got this like... this very glossy, bright, cheerful, everything's perfect beach world on the holodeck and then in come these like morphed macroviruses and then the next scene you see is like all of the holo characters just lying on the floor dead.
Red D: Yes!
Jen: with
Red D: I know, it's quite, it's quite traumatic actually.
Jen: It is, but it's also like really comedic, I think. I really like that.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: I clearly have a dark streak. I guess it reminds it reminds me a little bit of the Barbie movie, you know, like It's Barbie, so it's all like you know overly you know sugar and spice, ah but then also there's this really dark streak to it as well.
Red D: that my favorite part of the Barbie movie is that Barbie who's had her hair cut, who's being completely like destroyed by her owners. do you remember that character? Like she is so real. She's so funny.
Jen: Weirdly, know I didn't actually like the Barbie movie, but it did it did remind me of that, that Holotech scene.
Red D: Yeah. I just want to clarify. i thought the Barbie movie was terribly written, but I love that character. And I liked like just Barbie universe.
Jen: Oh, good. I found someone on my wavelength thread. Yes, I just
Red D: Oh, no, it's it has no plot. It has no purpose. It has no. Yeah, I can't. I can't get into it, but everyone loved
Jen: Yeah, I fully agree.
Jamie: used to be a weird silence from the HR email address, so carry on, guess.
Jen: with
Red D: And everybody, everybody before I saw saw the film was like, oh, Ryan Gosling, he's amazing. He's amazing. He's amazing. But yeah he was good. But he wasn't amazing.
Red D: I'm sorry.
Jen: I mean, I'm not, yeah, I mean, they were all okay.
Red D: Like.
Jen: I i really didn't understand the hype. i I sort of look back and think maybe I was just um just marketed to, you know, and to to to in order to go and see it.
Jen: And then in reality, when you see it, you're...
Red D: I mean, to be fair, I saw it on a plane. And sometimes when you see a film at different points in your life, it has different impact. So I don't want to... But I was just like, it doesn't have... The film didn't have good structure.
Jen: Hmm. Right.
Red D: So I think for me, that is always going to let it down because that's going to bother me the whole way through. Yes.
Jen: Yeah, I feel like it was definitely lacking and I don't know if it was like a combination of factors for me. Like, I i don't think the screenplay was anything, or but also the delivery wasn't anything.
Red D: yes
Jen: I just, yeah, I really liked the concept, but um in theory, but just, yeah, how it came together was...
Red D: It was fun to see the different Barbies. And then I did go see the Barbie exhibition at the Design Museum like a year or two later, which was fun because that was fascinating. It was a good exhibition.
Red D: um But...
Jen: did you have did you Did you have like the Barbie house red?
Red D: i mean
Red D: ah Okay, so first of all, yes, I adored Barbies growing up. But when I mean when i say Barbies, I mean that type of doll. Although I think most of my Barbies were Barbies, not like knockoff Barbies, if that makes sense.
Jen: Barbies, not both Barbies.
Red D: But I never had any of the, oh, no, I lie. I had an amazing doll's house that my grandparents got me. That was a beautiful like dormer framed, like wooden, like it wasn't plastic.
Jen: Oh,
Red D: And it had like carpeted. i mean, it was amazing. But I think I did have like a Barbie jacuzzi.
Jen: ah you had classy version, yeah. yeah
Red D: Like, I'm playing. And I remember, like, you know tucking my Barbies in at night and all this kind of stuff. I mean, I love playing with them. But so, yeah.
Jen: I had toride the very tacky, yeah, plastic Barbie house, which I enjoyed.
Red D: And you?
Red D: I'm sure.
Jen: think It even had the pink Barbie car as well.
Red D: Oh, amazing. I mean, that's what everyone wanted. I'm not sure that's what I had was what I wanted. But by the time i was 18, I was like, oh, this was amazing. Yeah.
Jen: you So, themes. I'm the only one who's written themes.
Red D: Yeah, themes, I'm not sure.
Jen: Yeah. Yeah.
Red D: Oh, themes is, themes is, okay, I have a theme. It just came to me, but it's like, it really annoys me in the workplace or whatever, when people are like, oh, this has happened, what should we do?
Jen: game is like
Red D: and I'm like, don't we have a procedure for that? And the theme should be stick to the procedures for predictable things, which 99% of things are. We don't have to reinvent it every time.
Red D: And as you kind of, we've all alluded to, huge mistake to get these viruses on board.
Jamie: Could we have predicted the doctor being incompetent?
Jen: Yeah,
Red D: That's true. Normally it's pretty competent.
Jamie: Can't really write a process for human incompetence. Android-ing.
Red D: That's what most processes are for, to avoid human competence.
Jen: eat me yeah it assumes that all all human error.
Jamie: And yet, most incompetence happens when people switch their brains off. And guess what process does? It switches people's brains off.
Red D: That's true.
Jen: I do not agree with this.
Red D: Well, I don't know when I joined my, like I started working in like management consulting and everyone's like the processes, process that. I was like, our processes are what you have when you have to hire people that aren't very smart.
Jen: first of have to
Red D: But that seems pretty.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah.
Jen: See, I think I learned something different starting out, the starting out as an editor. And that was, and there there's little like tests you can do to prove it as well. It's like, no, no, no, that um basically it doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, how clever you are, um human error will always exist.
Jamie: You can prove that someone is smart and dumb.
Jen: And so processes, i.e. review processes, for example, um that's why they're there. Because everyone is infallible and that's why you need a reviewer.
Jamie: Everyone is fallible.
Jen: Say again?
Jamie: I think what we've said everyone is fallible, and that just sort of proved the point.
Red D: Yeah, no, that's a very good point.
Jen: sagan
Jamie: So you said everyone is infallible. I think what you meant is everyone is fallible. And by saying that everyone is infallible, you proved the point.
Jen: Oh, I see. no i Yeah, you're right. What have you said?
Jamie: Although, you know, strong man's spination on my part. So, you know, winning at life too.
Jen: That's a very edited thing you just said, Jamie.
Red D: So I, oh, go ahead.
Jen: You're like, you know, critiquing and pointing out these minor little, you know, everyone knew what I meant, but you had to point out that they were right.
Jamie: did they Did they? I don't like to make assumptions on the part of the good viewership of Janeway's children. So, um you know, they might not be as smart as you'd be from credit for.
Jen: Did you hear that listeners? He thinks you're all idiots. We
Red D: You know, this is interesting because...
Jamie: Not all of you, just there might be some. We're okay having some idiots in.
Red D: I think I mentioned there's a podcast that I really enjoy called The Date with Dateline, which I think is the closest I've come in style to our podcast, which it seems, to be fair, they do do editing.
Jen: have a style.
Jamie: Yeah, can you articulate our style in three words?
Red D: I mean, our style is no editing.
Red D: Freeform, no editing to it. I don't know.
Jen: Oh my God.
Red D: um But it is funny, interesting listening to them because... I hear them say stuff and i'm like, I know what they meant, but the wrong words came out their mouth, which you know happens to me all the time. And I'm like, oh, it's kind of nice to hear that that happens to other people.
Red D: That's all I want to say.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: yeah and you and you you do know what people mean and it's it's like when you're learning um not a new language but say your native language as you grow up um you learn what words are, not because someone's telling you them or or you're looking up definitions, but because you can understand from context and then next time then you can use that word.
Jen: do you know what i mean? Like it's, but it's not conscious thought process.
Red D: Yeah, yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: If that makes any sense.
Jamie: It's
Red D: Definitely, definitely.
Jen: I just put down loads of, um you know, disease themes, you know, epidemics, disease life cycles, medical science fiction, and that was it really. What about you, Jay? Any themes come to mind?
Jamie: Again, because this didn't learn so well with me, so it didn't sort of strike so many chords. Um, I know there's a little bit of every sort of, oh plague at sea sort of thing, plus elements of gross out, but no i think i'll I think your themes are better than mine this week.
Jen: I also have this like feeling like that there are other themes that are really of us that i I've missed but I don't know what they are today but if there are I'm glad you two I don't know if that makes any sense um
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah.
Red D: yeah i mean now you're likeable now i've got me thinking i'm like um unacknowledged attraction in paris or something from that tiny movement uh cultural differences from that tiny opening sequence yeah
Jen: Yeah, diplomacy, although not really, because I mean, most of it's not about it. What with the
Jamie: Do you reckon the virus and the crew of Voyager were prevented from a more positive outcome by cultural differences?
Jen: virus? Yeah.
Jen: what with the virus
Jamie: Yeah. The
Red D: I thought because the tactact with the originator of the impact.
Jamie: fence looking of contempt for the morony of that comment is priceless.
Jen: Well, we haven't yet established whether um viruses are living beings. Are they alive? They're just some RNA in a membrane.
Jen: Anywho,
Red D: Yeah, yeah, sorry. I was thinking that I got lost in thought.
Jen: there's a rhetorical you know thought question. a Star player, star player. um who
Red D: I'm ready, fine, if I, I'm ready.
Jen: Red's wedding. Excellent. Go to Red's wedding.
Red D: So I'm gonna give a joint, in defiance of Jamie's opening comments, I'm gonna give a joint style player to the doctor, Robert Picard. Sorry, I get confused.
Jamie: How can any anyone not succeed in Star Trek with Picard in their name?
Red D: Yeah,
Red D: yeah that's true. um
Jen: I'm
Red D: Janeway, because for the acting with the, ah non-green screen, but somehow put on top of them viruses.
Jen: going to use for you, but somehow.
Red D: They had to do combat. And I thought the doctor was pretty good but when he had to, like, inject the the virus. And then the Janeway, I thought she wasn't that good, but then she whipped out a knife and she stabbed the virus. And I was like, oh, that was pretty good. So they both get the award, the star player award from me.
Jen: Yeah, I mean,
Red D: for their acting with a non-existent entity in the scene, but pulling it off somehow.
Jen: I think I have to agree with you on both of those, Red. I think they would be my joint top two for this as well. um I guess slightly different reasons though.
Jen: um The Doctor, for as always, i know there was not much of it, but his comedy. um You know, I just, I love when he was going around the caves and he was keeping his open comms link and describing in great depth everything.
Jamie: Yeah, that so funny.
Jen: And Hector be told, Doctor, you know, you don't have to, why don't you just tell us when you find the aliens? Yeah.
Jamie: goes his comments of great detail, meaning not great detail, was hilarious.
Jen: Exactly. And then also, you know, all his work he does to basically, um you know, find an antigen and how to distribute it and all that stuff. and And also, yeah, Janeway, because, you know, Lara Croft, Janeway, it's awesome.
Jen: What about you, Jay?
Jamie: Yeah, I just think whichever whichever the virus managed to make it into the beach paradise did pretty well for themselves.
Jen: I just think which of the virus managed to make it into the beach paradise did pretty well for themselves.
Jamie: I yeah i don't think anyone else had as good a time for the entire episode.
Jen: Yeah. I don't think anyone has had as good time for the
Red D: Even if it was very short lived, I guess, before the
Jamie: Quality, not quantity, Redwynn. Quality, not quantity.
Jen: entire episode.
Red D: antivirus bomb went off. that was scar over
Jen: There's not a lot of options for Starplayer, to be fair, in this episode.
Red D: There were only three characters that were really involved. Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, like Dr. Jane Moon. Even Neelix wasn't in it for that long, really, was he?
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: Yeah. Yeah. So Jeremy chooses the virus. Excellent. Well, then we're done. And that is it, guys.
Red D: Very good.
Jamie: I'd like to raise a clarificatory point. I don't choose the virus as a collective. I only choose the elements of the virus that made it into the holodeck during that program.
Jen: Thank you for clarifying. Very helpful.
Jamie: I think it's important.
Red D: Acknowledged.
Jen: On that note, yes, acknowledged. On that note, where is our jingle red plays out?
Red D: Okay, pia I just wanted to just anyone remember anyone remember what episode we're covering next.
Jen: ah Yeah, I was thinking I should say that as the, you know, as the facilitator this week.
Jamie: What episode are we covering next?
Jen: I have forgotten. him
Red D: I think it's fair trade. Hmm. I wonder what that's going to be about. I look forward to reconvening.
Jamie: Ferengi.
Red D: It feels like it will have to have Ferengi, but you never know. ah
Jen: Seems likely.
Red D: Seems likely.
Jen: i don't remember it from the name.
Red D: No, me neither.
Jen: let's see. Hmm.
Red D: Sorry, guys. I'm very tired, but that was great and fun episode. And look forward to fair trade.
Jen: ones
Jen: And any update on the metrics, Red?
Red D: I think...
Jen: Who's listening? Wow.
Red D: Yeah, China, Australia, America, Spain, UK.
Jen: Bye.
Red D: And hang up. I'm going to hang up right now.
