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We watch "Coda" (S3 Ep.15)
10 Plays23 hours ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Coda", in which Janeway really has a hell of a time, and has many near-death (actual death?) experiences!
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Theme music by Alain D
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Transcript
Kick-off and Jingle Discussion
00:00:00
Jen
we do on this podcast i'm very excited to moderate
00:00:01
Red D
We never do the same things. Every week is a discovery. Have I hit the jingle? I thought I hit the jingle.
00:00:10
Jen
think i can hear it i can't hear the jingle there we go the jingle has lost its mojo to death what happens when you get to a certain age can go very common an age for certain age
00:00:12
Red D
There we go, there we go.
00:00:16
Red D
Oh, Mojo.
00:00:19
Red D
Or Austin Powers.
00:00:24
Red D
Oh gosh, that is some strong base on that jingle.
00:00:29
Red D
I don't know what I have done to my son.
00:00:31
Jen
well let's just Almost as though the jingle is overcompensating.
Season 3, Episode 15 Excitement
00:00:36
Jen
Can
00:00:38
Red D
I do like this jingle.
00:00:40
Jen
I start saying things over the jingle?
00:00:43
Red D
You can, you can speak over the jingle.
00:00:44
Jen
You can say things whenever you like. I mean, typically I try and find something to pick you after this stage, but it's kind of weird when you're the same room and you can be hit. Sort been intimidated by it.
00:00:55
Jen
Do you find intimidated by it?
00:00:55
Red D
Jamie, you might have to come closer to the mic a bit, but maybe maybe it'll also realize.
00:00:58
Jen
Oh, oh, yeah. I was just going to say that I was intimidated to bicker about things when the moderator is literally right next to me. Also, we could adjust this, but if we we both sit back and then bringing with when we bring we bringing...
00:01:13
Red D
Oh, you guys are so cute.
00:01:15
Jen
I mean, you know, we are specimens of Beverly Beauty, so obviously, but there's a lot of arranging going on next to me. Right. Hopefully, to anyone listening, there's a little rearranging going on because someone's laptop charger is still at work and we are using one laptop. Yeah. So we're having to dress in the middle. That's the explanation for all this all this madness.
00:01:38
Jen
So today we are discussing, we're discussing, wait for it, season three, episode 15,
00:01:48
Red D
Nice. don't know why I said nice.
00:01:50
Jen
It is nice. It's very nice. like this one. don't know why I'm saying that. It's more like Coda. Because, I mean, and well we'll get into this, but I did happen to look up because I was curious how Coda, the title, connected with Coda, the actual story.
00:02:11
Jen
And I i had an idea, but i wanted to make sure, so I looked up. But I'll get to that later. Anyway.
00:02:16
Red D
I'm intrigued.
00:02:17
Jen
Okay. Oh, good, you don't know it. Okay, great, good. I figured you might just know it so it'd be super boring, but I will reveal that later. So, over to Jamie for the one-minute
Cult Movie Summary Choice
00:02:28
Jen
summary.
00:02:28
Jen
Well, there are two versions of this, right? And there's one in which I actually did it properly, and there's another which is just so much cooler, and, like, references cult movie and everything like that. Which do you want?
00:02:42
Red D
The second one, obviously. And as I asked...
00:02:44
Jen
Let's do the time warp again!
00:02:46
Red D
Okay, why? Why did I fall for that? Why?
00:02:51
Jen
ah Well, you know, it's not quite it's not quite those janitorial assistants of Chiyo tourist assets of the Delta Quadrant, but it's close.
00:03:04
Jen
Was that it then? so that was i no It was Let's Do the Time Warp Again. Does it need more? Reference to a cult movie, an incredible song... I mean, I guess as the moderator...
00:03:15
Red D
I guess for anyone who hasn't watched the...
00:03:15
Jen
You asked for the second version, not the first version.
00:03:17
Red D
Okay, now can we have the first version, please?
00:03:19
Jen
just Oh, gosh. I'm actually going have to ad-lib this the way that I normally do, as opposed to just coming up with a catchphrase. um Well... In stark contrast to the last episode in which we dealt exclusively and extensively with the asset technicians of geotourist
00:03:48
Red D
Oh yes.
Metaphysical Time Loop Plot
00:03:49
Jen
parks in Delta Quadrant, this episode deals with the captain's voyage of metaphysical discovery as she finds herself caught in a time loop in which she and Chakotay are repeatedly shot down and then assaulted by Vidian's on-and-away mission to a moon the team happened to be passing.
00:03:49
Red D
my gosh, i was like, how do you even remember the last episode? But yes.
00:04:17
Jen
This develops even further when the captain starts realising that she keeps living the same sequence of events and is confronted by a figure who appears to be her father telling her to let go of her relationship to the crew.
00:04:33
Jen
and walk into a ball of light that just seems to be appearing in each of these repetitions of the same series of events. It later transpires that this is not the captain's father, but actually an alien that hijacked her consciousness the first time that she landed on the planet, and is trying to convince her to enter a matrix into which the consciousnesses of dying souls are stored, and then, presumably given comments he made, fed on by members of this alien's race.
Initial Reactions to Time Loop Theme
00:05:07
Red D
Brand.
00:05:08
Jen
Wow. You need to understand the detail if you're going follow it. i mean I'm impressed with the level of remembering of specific words as well, you know, into his matrix. and Well, it wasn't his bum.
00:05:23
Jen
Or was it? I liked it. I mean, no, it was not that was not what I liked. Just to clarify. His bum. No, no, no. was I was actually suggesting that, you know, rather than his Matrix, it may have been his bum, as opposed to that you liked his bum, which it's only me that did. So anyway.
00:05:40
Jen
Moving on. What did you ever say here? I'm going to appreciate behind of the older man. Oh, no, no, no. Not that older man.
00:05:51
Jen
I'm sorry, whoever actually played that. Good morning, boys. Good morning, ladies. Okay, initial reactions. So... Let's do the dive walk.
00:06:04
Jen
Okay, we've had Jamie's initial reaction. And to be honest, mine was just kind of similar, but going down a different movie route of, it's Groundhog Day!
00:06:14
Red D
Yes.
00:06:15
Jen
That's a good one.
00:06:16
Red D
They were in their own personal Groundhog Day for sure.
00:06:19
Jen
yeah Yeah, but like the worst version of it where you die in 100 different deaths. Anyway, on to that later. um What about your initial reaction, Red? I can't
00:06:32
Red D
Well, my initial reaction was, you know, because when I set up the podcast, then I obviously go to Wikipedia to check the next episode. and um But i don't normally read the plot.
00:06:41
Jen
do it.
00:06:42
Red D
um because I don't know why, but this time I started reading it and i was like, in the first sentence, it was like, Janeway dies. i was like, what? was like, I'm sure I'd remember if Janeway died halfway through the episode or through the series.
00:06:50
Jen
yeah pretty slow
00:06:55
Jen
<unk>
00:06:56
Red D
And as I read, like nothing rang any bells and then obviously, you know, I mean, not any spoilers yet. And then when I started watching the episode during the teaser before the credit, um before the title, was like, I'm not ringing any bells.
00:07:09
Red D
And actually, i don't know if I remembered any of the episode at all. But I think this is gonna tie back to something that happens at the end, because there's a possibility that I blocked this episode
Reflections on Near-Death and Aliens
00:07:19
Red D
from my memory due to a traumatic thought experiment.
00:07:19
Jen
system Oh.
00:07:24
Jen
Did you have a near-death experience in which someone tried to get you to let go so that they could feast on your soul forever?
00:07:29
Red D
Well, as a kid, I was terrified of near-death experiences and I was terrified of aliens. So when Janeway posits that maybe all near-death experiences are encounters aliens, that might've been too much for my brain to comprehend.
00:07:42
Jen
i have similar sentiments, but I'll get to them in my comments.
00:07:45
Red D
Yeah, so I just had no memory.
00:07:46
Jen
Oh, wow.
00:07:47
Red D
So I'm wondering if I blocked it out.
00:07:48
Jen
Yeah. I mean, my initial reaction was, oh gosh, not a time loop sort of episode, because i typically hate those, but i actually really quite enjoyed this one. um the
00:07:58
Red D
And so does Janeway. She hates time travel.
00:08:01
Jen
yeah Yeah, exactly. Doesn't she make some comment about when she left the Academy, she was like, there's two things I'm never going to do, time loops and something else. I don't know if was cocaine or something.
00:08:10
Red D
Yeah.
00:08:12
Jen
Yeah. We all heard the stories. um Yeah, I agree. m So, one cool thing. How do you spell it?
00:08:20
Red D
Yes, I actually had something because I don't think that last time I rewatched Voyager, I had recently rewatched Monashy Road, which I have subsequently done.
00:08:29
Jen
nothing decision
00:08:31
Red D
And Janeway's dad, i was just looking it up now, is paid played by an actor called Len, I can't say his surname, Cario? Cario? Cario? C-A-R-I-O-U. He um
00:08:41
Jen
how do you spell it
00:08:42
Red D
c a r i o u
00:08:45
Jen
Carry you.
00:08:45
Red D
he Yeah, he's Canadian, apparently. But I recognized him from Murder, She Wrote, where he plays a very cheeky Irish-British MI5 officer who's always getting Murder, She Wrote, I mean, Angela Lansbury into scrapes.
00:08:58
Red D
So i was I was like, oh, when she was like, Daddy, I was like, I know that guy.
00:08:58
Jen
listen no
00:09:04
Red D
i wrote but better she wrote So I always love seeing, as I think I've explained before, these, I guess, what are called character actors. You know, when you you're like, oh, they actually had a whole career and they played, they were on lots of different things.
00:09:16
Red D
And to spot them across different things you watch is fun for me.
00:09:17
Jen
yeah
00:09:20
Jen
I love when that happens. That's been happening a lot lately for me and I'm sure it's happening with everyone where there's this new show coming out which has um the Carter Doctor from yeah ER r in it um and as a result they've put the old ER on Netflix.
00:09:33
Red D
Oh, yes.
00:09:37
Red D
Oh, yes.
00:09:38
Jen
Now of course everyone's watching ER, I'm watching ER.
00:09:41
Red D
Yes.
00:09:42
Jen
and then
00:09:42
Red D
Are you going to see so many people, I'm sure, in ER?
00:09:44
Jen
Oh my goodness, so many, it's wild. like And lots of really famous people as well, like surprisingly famous people.
00:09:50
Red D
Yes.
00:09:53
Red D
Like, what did I watch the other day? I'm watching some silly series or procedural. What was it? um
00:10:02
Jen
The Wire.
00:10:03
Red D
No, no, that's not silly. to up but not But you know Miranda from Sex and the City? she was She's in an episode of Murder, She Wrote, to actually.
00:10:11
Jen
Oh, and in ER!
00:10:13
Red D
Yes, and I saw her. She was in an episode of something I just watched the other day. now what was it? Because she's like a very young... um yeah and then she's actually a murderer or something in the You're like, oh, this is so exciting.
00:10:25
Red D
But
00:10:25
Jen
I always knew she could do two careers at once.
00:10:31
Red D
ah yeah.
00:10:31
Jen
Cool. So that is that is the one cool thing. um
00:10:35
Red D
Yes, if you happen to be a Star Trek Voyager fan and a Murder, She Wrote fan, then perhaps you can that call.
00:10:40
Jen
That is quite a combination. i think that's a big Venn diagram. course Yeah, you might be quite unique.
00:10:47
Red D
Just for the fellow, i don't even know what the term would be, the fellow people like me out there.
00:10:49
Jen
suspicious yeah
00:10:53
Red D
ah
00:10:54
Jen
Murder, she voyaged.
00:10:55
Red D
Mercy voyage, yes, yeah.
00:10:58
Jen
okay so um i'm afraid i'm going to be very um boring about this and do it in order and that means i'm going to go to me first i'm sorry guys it's the the joy of being the moderator um you will rue this day people you will rue this day i'm sure we will when you're moderator that's sort of what was implied yeah
00:11:04
Red D
Yes.
00:11:06
Red D
Great.
00:11:19
Jen
very directly. I could not, to quote Captain Holt, I could not have been more obviously hinting that. Oh, I mean, he is wonderful. um So, i have I have a feeling when I wrote my first point that um either read, you would either appreciate this, or you may well have also written this.
00:11:36
Jen
written a
00:11:37
Red D
I didn't read yours. I think we were writing at the same time, so but now I'm intrigued.
00:11:40
Jen
Good. Okay, well, we can find out. I'd just like to appreciate another classic example of why Star Trek is the best in that, you know, there's none of this, oh, I'm hallucinating and seeing things and no one else is, so I'm going to be in denial and pretend it's okay and it'll go away. This is a very old TV troupe, which seems to happen with every character and every single time it happens, I think. But surely you would i get that denial is a thing but surely most people with half a brain would in fact just say i'm seeing stuff other people aren't sensible to for me to go and get checked out by the doctor and that's exactly what she does
00:12:19
Red D
Yes. She did! I did admire that. She was like, I'm just taking myself off to the sickbay, want to the doctor.
00:12:25
Jen
no yeah yeah yeah
00:12:25
Red D
Instead of, like, every other TV show, whatever, it's like, I'm in denial, never going to let anyone know, and everything's gonna escal to escalate again. Much, much, much worse.
00:12:31
Jen
yes no yes exactly and it's a really unusual behavior because you know the rest of us just try and ignore it until it goes away we see you are the tired um but also and also i do appreciate though that she says meanwhile keep the scans up you know she's not she's not saying oh well then definitely it's me and i'm crazy but she's saying right well then very sensible approach i'll get checked over by the doctor in case there's something going on with me Meanwhile, also continue the scans in case it is some kind of time loop.
00:13:00
Jen
It's just, that's the way to do it, Star Trek.
Star Trek's Approach to Hallucinations
00:13:04
Jen
Yeah.
00:13:04
Red D
Yeah, she just, she knows, I mean, I hate to use this terminology, I guess, but she knows, well, she knows what she's supposed to do so well, and she sticks to it.
00:13:11
Jen
consistent
00:13:12
Red D
You know, she's not, not to say she, was about to say she doesn't improvise, whatever, but actually she has to improvise a lot when they're in these perilous situations, but she doesn't, it's always subliminate her own needs to the goal.
00:13:13
Jen
You're
00:13:19
Jen
a loose cannon. Loose cannon!
00:13:27
Jen
You alright? Uh
00:13:28
Red D
Sorry, low battery, please recharge headset. I'm going to turn off my headphones. I'll still be able to hear you.
00:13:33
Jen
oh.
00:13:34
Red D
um
00:13:34
Jen
Are you nudging me by the way?
00:13:35
Red D
I just won't have noise canceling.
00:13:37
Jen
Oh sorry, I thought youre go oh you were going like shh.
00:13:40
Red D
You guys are very cute on this tiny little screen.
00:13:42
Jen
Oh no no. Oh is that just nervous energy? I thought you were like shh, Jamie.
00:13:45
Red D
I might just take a little picture.
00:13:48
Jen
Oh no, I think that's, don't know what that is. That's just me. a doing i don't know sorry i genuinely thought you were like james you're jamie you're talking a lot it's great but now it's a podcast you're supposed to talk a lot you know as long as you're not you know talking over read how's the headset going is it okay yeah
00:14:08
Red D
Oh, it's fine. It's fine. It's just that i like it works with power off. But I had the noise cancelling on earlier. But it's fine.
00:14:18
Jen
Okay, we're in business too.
00:14:19
Red D
It's all good.
00:14:20
Jen
We're in business. okay Okay, in that case, it is over to Jamie.
00:14:21
Red D
We're in business.
00:14:24
Jen
Okay, I would like to start by noting that that alien would scare the piss out of me. An extraterrestrial wasting to harvest and be suckered by my soul in a matrix post-death.
00:14:37
Jen
That's like from the DC Universe level of dark, to quote Deadpool in Deadpool 2. Like, am I not the only one who thinks that's like a thousand times too dark for Star Trek?
00:14:48
Red D
It's pretty dark.
00:14:49
Jen
Unless it's the Borg.
00:14:50
Red D
It's pretty dark.
00:14:50
Jen
I'll just throw in one of my points there.
00:14:51
Red D
And i think maybe I'll just throw in one of my points there. oh
00:14:55
Jen
You're not getting that good.
00:14:55
Red D
I hope but you're not getting an echo. um Which was this kind of concept around, i was like, oh, they're playing little bit with, you know, like the five stages of grief. I think denial is the first phase.
00:15:07
Red D
um And I think the quicker you can get through denial, or that's what they say, the healthier your grieving process will be. Or maybe I'm just making that bit up.
00:15:15
Jen
Hmm.
00:15:16
Red D
But yeah, there's like, now you're questioning denial.
00:15:16
Jen
Hmm.
00:15:19
Red D
Denial for her was a healthy reaction to what she was seeing and experiencing. um And she could have, yeah, I think it is pretty dark because denial is,
00:15:28
Jen
yeah we should all be way less yoga and accepting about shit deny or mort I actually was more frightened less of the alien ah but much more of the first half the videos no I mean the videos are awful but no to me the horror of that this episode is the idea of being stuck in a time loop where you are just dying dying over again in horrible ways
00:15:33
Red D
yeah.
00:15:52
Red D
Oh yeah, that was awful.
00:15:54
Jen
I mean, that I'd much rather be the alien than that, to be honest. Yeah.
00:15:59
Red D
That was pretty bad. like that By the third or fourth time, I was like, oh my gosh, I think I would just dive off the side of that shuttlecraft.
00:16:04
Jen
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, well what what can you do? Because you're just...
00:16:09
Red D
Yeah, if it's actually a bit you can do
00:16:11
Jen
Yeah. It's horrible. Anyway, i any other thoughts on... ah or before we move on to Red? No, none. No?
Talent Show and Crew Morale
00:16:22
Jen
Then over to you, Red.
00:16:22
Red D
Okay, my turn. Well, I'm surprised that Jamie didn't say something about this, but in the teaser, I believe the term is called, the opening little sequence, there was a lot of innuendo where you're trying to figure out what Neelix and Jane were talking about.
00:16:37
Red D
He's like, oh my gosh, you were so good last night. And she was like, oh, it's been so in long. And he was like, oh, you would never know. And then
00:16:43
Jen
i want yeah I'm yeah trying to be very clear about why I didn't pick up on that red. It's because I don't want to exhaust supplies of mind bleach. Hoping we could get through this without that image being in my head and I've ruined it Yeah, that was a pretty weird choice, that innuendo between Janeway and Neelix. Yeah.
00:17:03
Red D
Well, I mean, yeah, I thought but there was an innuendo. And then you find out all this excitement is because of Talent Night or the talent show that, um... the crew had the night before.
00:17:13
Red D
um And I have to say, i think it was a successful social. cu you know, I think in the previous, or kind similar the previous episodes, we commented on the forced work socializing on the holodeck.
00:17:23
Jen
this
00:17:25
Red D
But from what I can see, Neelix was in a good mood, Janeway was in a good mood, Chakotay was in a good mood when she got onto the shuttle with him.
00:17:31
Jen
you then we cool
00:17:32
Red D
They all really enjoyed that that work socializing event. Thanks, you.
00:17:37
Jen
and even Tuvok participated yeah not too much detail here people i i would like to reference that point a little bit later oh you know what guys just mentioning Tuvok
00:17:39
Red D
Although he invited back. okay
00:17:47
Red D
Great. Well.
00:17:51
Jen
um although it's not actually really to do with him, but it's funny because a couple of episodes ago, possibly the last one, we were talking about that Pon Far, and I happened to notice before I clicked on this one to watch this episode, ah that one I think is the next one.
00:18:07
Red D
Oh, great.
00:18:07
Jen
yes is it why Is it SFW or NSFW?
00:18:13
Jen
Safe for work or not safe for work?
00:18:15
Red D
Yeah, it's safe for work. It's Star Trek.
00:18:17
Jen
Oh, no, definitely not safe for work. I think that's a good one.
00:18:21
Red D
I mean, you're not supposed to be behaving like that at work, but we can watch it.
00:18:24
Jen
I wasn't talking about behaving that way at work. I don't think that's an excuse for an HR tribunal for sexual harassment, Red. I had pon far going on in my head.
00:18:33
Red D
Yeah.
00:18:34
Jen
name it on the pond for Anyway, I just think i'm I'm quite looking forward to our next podcast already because I'm like, that's going a really funny one.
00:18:34
Red D
Yeah,
00:18:42
Jen
um
00:18:42
Red D
that's great.
00:18:43
Jen
I also just really like that one with the whole banana, Tom. Anyway, sorry, I'm getting totally diverted and um I think it's back to me now.
00:18:53
Red D
Yes.
00:18:53
Jen
And I have a question for you guys.
Resolving Plot Points and Alien Plan
00:18:57
Jen
So I'm probably just being really dense. But um given this ended up being about the alien trying to draw Janeway into his dimension for nefarious reasons, and that whole second half of the episode is about persuading her and her potentially dying all this, um'm it did seem a bit disjointed in that it's very separate from the first half, which is all about this death-triving.
00:19:19
Jen
deathaf time loop roundhog day. um And so then when it ended, it resolved the first half, but I feel like there were quite a lot unanswered questions about the the first half. But then I think maybe I just missed them, which is why I'm asking you guys. like The reason for why she kept dying at the start, was that part of the aliens' plan in some way? And why why were the Vidians out of their territory? Was that ever answered?
00:19:44
Red D
were there even for demons?
00:19:45
Jen
No.
00:19:46
Red D
I'm not sure.
00:19:47
Jen
Yeah, because I sort of feel like
00:19:49
Red D
Okay, we're definitely shocked in the shuttle. That's true.
00:19:51
Jen
Yeah.
00:19:52
Red D
We find that out there.
00:19:53
Jen
But like, yeah, I think the time loop was a hallucination he, the alien, inflicted on Janeway to convince her that she was in a time loop of her death, to try and give credence to why he kept having multiple cracks at trying to get her to let go.
00:19:53
Red D
I do think it was a bit disjointed. I have to agree. Sorry, Jamie.
00:20:15
Red D
Yes, I thought the time.
00:20:16
Jen
Possibly also to dis-anchor her grip on reality.
00:20:21
Red D
Yes, I think I don't have to be honest, even though it was written by Jerry Taylor, who I definitely admire. I think there was some
00:20:33
Red D
Yeah, I felt the story is a bit disjointed.
00:20:34
Jen
There were some plot gaps.
00:20:36
Red D
But I do think that, like, I think he was he was trying to get her to let go. And every time she, Kasama, fought back or was brought back and had to keep trying to... I don't know why.
00:20:47
Red D
I guess you could make the argument, why does he have to go back in time each time to do it?
00:20:52
Jen
Yeah, it but it does tie in, though, you say that with, yeah, in the second half when she's fighting, when she starts to glimpse herself back in real life, she's fighting to get out. And it's that is a continuation of that fight, I guess.
00:21:06
Jen
So it sort of links up. It's just it was a bit, I was a bit confused about that bit. It was weird because you think it's going to be one type of episode and then it can completely turn into something else.
00:21:20
Red D
Yeah.
00:21:22
Jen
because
00:21:23
Red D
Yes.
00:21:23
Jen
I thought it was going to be a time loop type episode. How are they going to get out of it? Temporal nebulas or I don't know what. It turns out there's an alien in heaven and her brain wants to feast on something.
00:21:39
Jen
Anyway, so
00:21:40
Red D
yeah Yeah,
Speculation on Janeway and Chakotay's Relationship
00:21:41
Red D
that's true.
00:21:41
Jen
That's true, that is true.
00:21:41
Red D
That is true. They can like take a twist, which is good.
00:21:42
Jen
And I think Twist was just... Pretty, yeah. So I would like to take the mood in a lighter direction. are the Skipper and Chakotay! don't know why I feel like calling Chakotay for this one. Out on a hot date of champagne and a yacht at the end. And also, does anyone get a get a bit of a vibe at the end of this is the end of the opposite episode and we've miraculously set the universe well again and sort of vibe to it that you get quite a lot with Star Trek episode endings.
00:22:18
Jen
That's why they're the best.
00:22:19
Red D
Yes, I mean, I've never...
00:22:20
Jen
world yes That's great.
00:22:21
Red D
That's why watch.
00:22:23
Jen
And are the skipper and jacquette out on a hot date at the end?
00:22:27
Red D
Well, again, i have something to maybe not contribute, but to add here from one of my points that wrote down, which is...
00:22:32
Jen
Okay. if If Jenny takes me out on a yacht with champagne, is she taking me out on a date?
00:22:39
Red D
Yes, and what I will say about this episode is, you know, I've mentioned the kind of the term, and Jenny, maybe you've heard it if you listen to Delta Flyers, the term JC shippers, the people who really wanted Janeway and Chakotay to get together in the series.
00:22:52
Jen
Yeah. yeah yeah i think they I think they were together on the She says, your day so
00:22:53
Red D
Well, they watched this series, episode, of course they wanted that to happen. I mean, how much more, like...
00:23:02
Red D
Yeah, because, I mean, even from the opening, like, scene, or when they shot down, and then he resuscitates her, and then she's like, Chakotay, or whatever she says, and she comes back, and he's, I mean, he's, like, leaning over and kissing her hands, and this, like, so dramatic scene of her, like, prone or soupied, and him, like, me, like, next to her, and I'm like, oh my god, i no other people want them to get together.
00:23:25
Red D
This is pretty intense. Like, the, the,
00:23:29
Jen
good point yeah
00:23:29
Red D
Romantic energy there. All the young. And so yes, and then at the end when she suggests sailing a champagne, i'm like, that is not helping.
00:23:38
Jen
or is it what is it helping i'm just i'm just right i'm just asking questions here guys
00:23:40
Red D
Yeah, well.
00:23:46
Red D
Just very good friends, but it's hard to, I can see why people are JC shippers.
00:23:49
Jen
Very good friends. Very good friends. It's very hard to comment without thinking about the future of where it the storylines go.
00:23:59
Jen
as I don't want like go to or a focus on this episode.
00:23:59
Red D
Yeah.
00:24:03
Jen
Jenny, if I take you out on a yacht champagne, am I taking you on a date? Yeah, it sounds like a date to me yeah
00:24:08
Red D
I'm sure I have actually taken on on your champagne. It wasn't really a date in the end, so...
00:24:11
Jen
me. By one person only, though. By one person only.
00:24:17
Red D
Yeah. then they we came We came back to shore, and then next week he was dating someone else. I mean, I'm compressing timelines a bit.
00:24:24
Jen
oh
00:24:26
Red D
But yes.
00:24:27
Jen
Still.
00:24:27
Red D
Yes.
00:24:28
Jen
Still, you're champagne out of it, so that's a win.
00:24:28
Red D
So... It wasn't really a yacht. It was ah a launch for row rowing. And we were on yeah a dam at a rowing regatta. And we regard of anything
00:24:35
Jen
we waited Did Matt just bring a champagne bottle in a launch when we were at Vesta?
00:24:39
Red D
and it wasn't champagne. It was probably beer. But yes, you get the drift.
00:24:43
Jen
ah So it wasn't champagne, it wasn't a yacht, it was questionable if it was a date.
00:24:48
Red D
But from an objective, you'd be like, wow, that was very romantic. You must be into her. Nope. Anyway, yeah.
00:24:53
Jen
What? Warm beer in a coaching watch? That's not it.
00:24:58
Red D
At night after the after party, not directly after rowing. Sorry, that's so, so loud.
00:25:02
Jen
I mean, that should that just screams acute sensitivity to the sun. Was he a vampire? Or she?
00:25:10
Red D
He was not a vampire. Anyway, I'm just saying if you are a very good friendzoning people, it doesn't necessarily have to be a date, I guess is what I'm saying.
00:25:13
Jen
That's what you say.
00:25:20
Jen
Do either of the captain or Chakotay... I love that now so much. Do they strike you as friendzoning type people?
00:25:29
Red D
Yes, Janeway definitely, because she's the captain and she has to keep things professional.
00:25:33
Jen
No, she friendzones other people. They don't friendzone her. No one puts me in there, really.
00:25:36
Red D
No, no, but and he has explained in that episode that he'd basically follow her to her death or whatever, but he doesn't ever expect more.
00:25:37
Jen
Yeah.
00:25:44
Jen
yeah Yeah. That's how I always see it, that like you know they both care about each other, but um it's just not they wouldn't go there in the position they're in as captain and replacement captain on a ship stranded within a 70-year journey.
00:25:59
Jen
all All of which being said, I guarantee you someone somewhere has written the most awful plan fiction where they are a thing, and it starts there. and It's just horrific.
00:26:10
Red D
That is such a good point. My God.
00:26:12
Jen
That is absolutely horrendous. I do not want to think about that. Let's move on, move on, move on.
00:26:17
Red D
It could be well written.
00:26:20
Jen
Fanfic is never well-written, Red.
00:26:21
Red D
Sorry. I don't know.
00:26:23
Jen
Never. Oh my god. I've just seen how many points you have. oh so many points. What the hell? are we out
00:26:31
Red D
Because I throw them in when you guys are saying, because I don't want to forget something that... Anyway.
00:26:36
Jen
Red, are you actually putting ticks by the ones you've said?
00:26:36
Red D
okay Yes.
00:26:39
Jen
Oh my God, amazing. I love the organisation.
00:26:44
Red D
I can't help
00:26:44
Jen
I'm not going to talk about the head. No, no, no, sorry. I'm not going to do that. This is just like my work day. I have my little list. I do tick them. I grade them out. We could, you know, give 60 comments worth of feedback back.
00:26:56
Red D
Please don't.
00:26:58
Jen
Oh God, no. No more. No more feedback. Oh, feedback. That's the worst part of the job. on that's Giving feedback. Red, we'd like to feedback that you have a lot of points, so you should get
00:27:08
Red D
Yes, but I don't ah have to go through them all and they'll probably be eaten up by the time we get through.
00:27:12
Jen
You have to go through them all.
00:27:13
Red D
Except we don't have
00:27:13
Jen
Okay, well... Okay, we... oh yeah that got lost in translation. It's your turn. So you're allowed one? Or if you can combine them, you then more than No.
00:27:20
Red D
is it my turn? Well, mine one is very short.
00:27:22
Jen
she's just
00:27:24
Red D
So, it's the first time I've ever noticed the Federation-issued grey flat square hair bobble, hairband that Janeway has on her hair.
00:27:32
Jen
had her January brain.
00:27:33
Red D
Did you notice it, either of you?
00:27:35
Jen
no oh she's just had a janeway ra
00:27:37
Red D
I wasn't sure if they were like drawing attention to her.
00:27:40
Jen
I thought she just had her Janeway braid. She had, yes, she had her braid.
00:27:43
Red D
She had, yeah, she had ponytail a lot of the time and she had this square gray like hair bobble, like with a beveled square in the center.
00:27:51
Jen
Oh, it's a bit more fun.
00:27:54
Red D
No,
00:27:55
Jen
That thing they put on her forehead to resuscitate her.
00:27:57
Red D
no but almost exactly like that, but at the back of her head.
00:27:59
Jen
I'll see.
00:28:00
Red D
So quite similar. And I was like, I've never seen that before. Are they trying to draw attention to her head because the aliens in there later are on? Or like what's going on?
00:28:12
Red D
But um yeah.
00:28:12
Jen
I wonder. That could be. think I know what you mean now. That's a sort of buckle hair clip.
00:28:19
Red D
Yeah, but it was square gray plastic, which I think is bit different to like the round.
00:28:22
Jen
a
00:28:24
Red D
I don't know. I just never noticed it before. Maybe it's been on millions of times, but first time.
00:28:28
Jen
no Well, I mean, I'm amazed I didn't notice it because ah you know how obsessed with Jamie's hair I am. difference Okay, i think it's back to me.
00:28:38
Jen
And oh, yeah, so we kind of touched on this earlier about the whole like, ah, horrific, horrible, this of dying over and over. And it just horribly reminded me of, I was quite into Greek mythology when I was a kid and they were teaching us classics.
00:28:55
Jen
and And so we had a fantastic classics teacher who would really bring all the stories to life, you know, she had loads of energy.
00:29:02
Red D
that's nice.
00:29:02
Jen
But some of them are, I mean, a lot of them, most of them are pretty gruesome. And the one in particular that this episode may always reminds me of is this whole Prometheus one.
00:29:06
Red D
Yes.
00:29:13
Red D
Oh.
00:29:13
Jen
where He's punished by his Zeus by dying over and over. He basically gets his liver or something eaten.
00:29:21
Red D
Oh, yes.
00:29:22
Jen
Eagle. And then because he's immortal, it grows back the next day and he gets eaten like again. horrible oh It just stayed with me. as well to be honest oh It's a horrifying story. And then this reminded me of it.
00:29:36
Jen
Oh.
00:29:36
Red D
That's a good point though, Jenny, because often these writers are very well read, well educated, well, very smart. So I wonder if there's some...
00:29:45
Jen
Maybe he was or she was thinking of the pre-Pometheus myth.
00:29:48
Red D
Yeah. Yeah,
00:29:51
Jen
When you get in a time leap, the infinite nature of it can be part of the horror. No, that is specifically it.
00:29:57
Red D
no yeah.
00:30:00
Jen
The sort of dying however the whatever in whatever way is pretty scary alone. What could possibly be worse? The only thing worse is that you have to die multiple times in death.
00:30:12
Red D
Oh, yeah.
00:30:14
Jen
what worse horror is there? I mean, yeah. Oh, anywho. Oh gosh. I'm done. I'm done with that point now, guys. Right. No more harking on.
00:30:23
Red D
Yes,
00:30:24
Jen
I mean, talking about, I'd like to move on from that talk point and talk about death again. um I want to talk about equally terrifying me, the mercilessly euthanizing doctor decides the appropriate way to respond
00:30:36
Red D
yes. yes
00:30:40
Jen
to Janeway having the phage is basically to lock her behind a bio force field and then basically euthanise her with some sort of nerve gas.
00:30:54
Jen
Like, that was unbelievably dark for Star Trek.
00:30:54
Red D
That was, I mean, yeah, that was... so
00:30:58
Jen
Like, is that what the Doctor would actually do in that situation?
00:31:01
Red D
No.
00:31:02
Jen
Is that what the Captain thinks the Doctor would do?
00:31:03
Red D
Oh,
00:31:05
Jen
Because both are terrifying.
00:31:08
Red D
yeah, that's a good point, because a lot of the stuff is coming from her imagination. But, yeah, that was, I mean, that was obviously a clue, a sense...
00:31:14
Jen
Is that what the alien thinks the Doctor would do?
00:31:17
Red D
Yeah. That was a clue that something wasn't quite right because we know the Doctor and Janeway go to the ends of the earth to save one person like every week.
00:31:25
Jen
I mean, I think it's a completely realistic take on the Doctor's character. You can absolutely see him cold-bloodedly doing that.
00:31:30
Red D
the Doctor was even...
00:31:33
Red D
no i
00:31:34
Jen
Pologram, doesn't have feelings.
00:31:34
Red D
know that you're joking. But the way the Doctor was being played was slightly different and it was a kind of very unnerving and terrifying.
00:31:41
Jen
What? Competently.
00:31:42
Red D
one Yeah, no.
00:31:43
Jen
I'm joking, for the record. course Yeah, but I find it horribly
00:31:48
Red D
And was headline recently. I haven't read the article, but a woman was euthanized against her will. So I mean, it's a bit of a country. um
00:31:58
Jen
Where?
00:31:59
Red D
As I said, I've read the headline, not the I can't attest to anything.
00:32:05
Jen
Which paper?
00:32:05
Red D
that's it I don't know.
00:32:07
Jen
So
00:32:07
Red D
I just saw the headline somewhere. Here we go.
00:32:10
Jen
if it's something... right If it's against her will, isn't that just murder? Yeah, that's not easy.
00:32:14
Red D
Well, that's what I think a lot of people would... Yeah, it's happened in Canada. So...
00:32:19
Jen
I don't think euthanasia is legal in Canada.
00:32:20
Red D
and Oh, you're joking. It's very legal.
00:32:24
Jen
No.
00:32:25
Red D
um
00:32:25
Jen
In Canada.
00:32:26
Red D
Yes, in Canada. It's one of the leading, I guess, countries, if you consider of that.
00:32:27
Jen
Hmm. Hmm.
00:32:31
Red D
So yeah, i was it was just a bit like, it just so happened that I saw the headline. And then this happened to Jane when I was like, oh, this, yeah, the doctor being so callous and cold and just making the decision for her was really scary and unnerving.
00:32:45
Jen
also also incorrect surely because it isn't euthanasia if it's against her will is it yeah that's the whole point of euthanasia is that it's a choice by the person yeah
00:32:54
Red D
So again, ah let me just read. yeah Well, I won't read it here on the pa arts podcast, but I guess someone, it seems like this woman was like, yes, please. Then she withdrew her like consent for the, and was like, I'd rather want palliative care. And her husband pushed for the procedure anyway.
00:33:08
Jen
yeah that sounds like a
00:33:09
Red D
So yes, another case of, yeah, just typical.
00:33:12
Jen
Well, well but it depends, doesn't it? if um Having been watching a lot of ER lately, if if ah someone says when they're in their right mind, yes, I would like to die, you know, whatever is in terminal illness, say um and then part of the illness makes them lose their capacity to make decisions.
00:33:31
Red D
I think this woman was just 80 years old. That's that seems to be the, yeah.
00:33:34
Jen
oh yeah But in that scenario then someone who they had signed over the decision making right to could say no I believe what she still in her right mind really wants is to end her life.
00:33:46
Jen
Even though now she's i mean yeah
00:33:47
Red D
I don't think I could be that person to do that. If someone was saying, I still want to live, I'd be like, okay, fine.
00:33:54
Jen
I mean i think the people who are having to who are resorting to that they were like
00:33:54
Red D
But yeah.
00:33:59
Jen
probably potentially in situations where they've watched someone they love for like years and years extreme pain and I guess the decision makes this a bit easier if that's the situation but ah who knows I mean it it sounds it's a horrific
00:34:13
Red D
Yes, and also, I mean, we're just talking about TV, mostly. And then they are pushing ideas to the extreme, right, I think, a lot of the time.
00:34:19
Jen
I would like to register a question before we move on to Red.
00:34:20
Red D
Yeah.
00:34:24
Jen
I've just noticed that you have put a tick against something that was about the doctor deciding euthanasia, which was in there. Are you ticking off because I said it?
00:34:33
Red D
No, I'm taking off because I've already contributed my point, which you, up to your point, yeah.
00:34:35
Jen
Oh, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. shook who guys
00:34:37
Red D
So we don't have to repeat it later, right?
00:34:39
Jen
I'll tell you what, I don't know how I feel about being the moderator with Jamie sat next to me right here.
00:34:44
Red D
It's very stressful, I imagine.
00:34:45
Jen
It's okay okay. It's okay. If you're intimidated, Red can step in and referee. He's basically like, just coming along and scrolling through the notes. I'm like, excuse me. I am sorry. I am i would like to... pay our charge I have managed to offend 66% of the podcast, so I must be doing my job.
00:35:01
Jen
I'd like to withdraw my objections and ramp down my notes.
00:35:03
Red D
This is why I have so many points it's because like I'm go like, oh, I'll just write that down in case someone mentions it. And then I can just add this because it's not like a full point, you know, but i'll be like and I'm not, i maybe I should just rely on my memory.
00:35:11
Jen
Yeah.
00:35:15
Red D
But for some reason, I refuse to do that.
00:35:17
Jen
I have found that that does happen. i i don't write it down, but I'll think, and I think, I bet someone else brings up, and then when they do, i can say, I had the same idea, or a different one.
00:35:28
Red D
Yeah.
00:35:29
Jen
I find a really useful phrase in those situations is, and another one, and another thing. And another Yeah. um Since you guys have so many more points than me, I'm actually going break mine into two now, um and say that...
00:35:46
Red D
But I haven't had my point. i just added to Jamie's point so I can throw in a separate thing.
00:35:50
Jen
honestly stop signing some red this is the best moment ever everyone says not me
00:35:55
Red D
then you Then you don't have to worry about too much about so you know spreading, like breaking up your points.
00:35:59
Jen
i do apologize you go for it i i'm appalled red i'm sorry about her
00:36:05
Red D
But I did think when Janeway was back on, officially dead or between lives or in a coma or whatever was happening, I'm not sure, but she was on the Voyager.
00:36:16
Red D
But when the crew was like rallying to see if they could like find evidence of her because Kez had picked her up and all that stuff, I thought it must be very fulfilling, at least in the early stages, um to watch her whole crew operate so effectively without her there.
00:36:22
Jen
well
00:36:29
Jen
Yeah.
00:36:30
Red D
Like they all just like,
00:36:30
Jen
Oh my days, yes.
00:36:33
Red D
getting on, they know exactly what to Koti's setting the plan, everyone's executing and they're so competent.
00:36:38
Jen
Yeah.
00:36:38
Red D
And a lot of that is due to her great leadership.
00:36:41
Jen
yeah i mean absolutely i also think um i think it shows in the way she acts it she's got this amazing sort of closed mouth smile throughout when she sees that that i do think also it's a real sign of her own like uh
00:36:50
Red D
Yeah.
00:36:56
Jen
strong character that she is pleased about it because I feel like I know people who would feel insecure about that, you know?
00:36:59
Red D
Yes. Yes.
00:37:05
Jen
um yeah Maybe even a little bit myself, you know, though I wouldn't like to admit it, that, you know, if you you feel like you've developed a team so well that they can basically function without you and you're very pleased about that. But there's also a small part of you that's like, oh but but what do I do now? Yeah.
00:37:21
Red D
Why isn't everything falling apart, not me?
00:37:23
Jen
Yes, exactly. I'm not needed. you know I move into strategy. is Exactly. I just oversee. um Yeah, really good point.
00:37:33
Red D
Yeah, so that that was just my point. Back to you, Jenny.
00:37:37
Jen
I appreciate the um letting me know they're registered. I just want just to make absolutely sure that I'm not going ahead.
00:37:44
Red D
I know. I know.
00:37:46
Jen
Yeah. So, I mean, I was just going to say, and this is a very lighthearted, i but it has to be done. It's another HR alert, people. alert. Yeah.
00:37:56
Red D
What is it? Yes.
00:37:58
Jen
Well, I just think that Janeway has been on quite an intense away mission here, where she's basically been repeatedly murdered and killed or killed in different ways. So she might need a little bit more time off than the usual away mission recovery period. Can I put my hand up and ask a question?
00:38:16
Jen
o How long is the usual away mission recovery period? Well, they never specify, but I get the distinct impression it is not long enough.
00:38:26
Red D
It's funny that you mention that because one of my last, think one of my last points, but we'll throw it in here if that's okay. It's like in hindsight, when you're thinking what what happened in the episode, the first time that they, she is killed or she nearly dies and is like resuscitated by Chakotay.
00:38:32
Jen
Hmm.
00:38:38
Jen
Hmm.
00:38:41
Red D
One minute later, she's doing fine motor skills wiring of a thing and then fighting the Medeans.
00:38:44
Jen
yes
00:38:48
Red D
And I was like, that doesn't seem very realistic. But at that point in time, I still thought it was... you know, they're like what was actually happening? That was just what was in her head. And then hindsight was like, oh, that should have been a huge clue that things were not quite right.
00:39:01
Red D
But...
00:39:01
Jen
That's a really good point. Yeah, I did have the same thought when, um well, in particular, it was when, after she'd just been revived, Chikote said, I'll go and do whatever.
00:39:02
Red D
Yes.
00:39:11
Jen
You stay here and perform this task. And I was like, what do you mean? but You're asking her to do something?
00:39:14
Red D
Yes.
00:39:16
Jen
She's basically still horizontal, for God's sake. Her heart has just stopped. You're like, oh, this is your job.
00:39:20
Red D
And then the next scene she's got a screwdriver and a wire and the homing beacon and i'm like, how is this possible?
00:39:25
Jen
Yeah. Yeah. But artistic license, I guess.
00:39:31
Red D
yeah um Yeah, so I agree that overall she needs to be allowed to rest.
00:39:37
Jen
Yeah. It does. um
00:39:39
Red D
For sure.
00:39:41
Jen
I've kind of, I've lost, where we, it was it you next, Jake?
00:39:43
Jen
Yes, yes. Okay, right. yes ah So, yeah. I would just like to comment on the fact that almost uniquely, we have a ah another comic Neelix leave me alone starter moment at the start of the episode and uniquely Neelix comes out looking better Tuvok to vol in a talent competition related question in that he manages to get the captain to agree to manipulate the talent comp to make sure that Tuvok doesn't get to perform Balkan poetry again which I think is unbeli is punching unbelievably above his weight as you know a contributor to the crew um and frankly I for one am a fan of
00:39:43
Red D
Now it's Jamie.
00:40:25
Red D
ah
00:40:32
Jen
the epic Vulcan classics and I find this marginalisation of them outrageous.
00:40:40
Red D
Yeah, there's a part of me that was like, well, I've never been to like a slam poetry evening, so maybe I wouldn't.
00:40:44
Jen
A Vulcan slam poetry evening.
00:40:45
Red D
But I do like it. If someone can do something well, you can get really drawn in to like a good poetry reading.
00:40:51
Jen
why Why do we think Tuvok did it well?
00:40:54
Red D
Because it's 2BOK.
00:40:55
Jen
Well, yeah, by very definition, it's the exception that proves the rule. if everyone's trying to get him kept off.
00:41:03
Red D
Yes, I mean, it doesn't seem like anyone else had enjoyed it. So I think we have...
00:41:07
Jen
I mean, Vulcan Slam poetry is renowned across the Alpha Quadrant, um you know, um even amongst
00:41:15
Red D
Maybe it's just too long.
00:41:17
Jen
well yeah the geotourism asset technicians of the Delta Quadrant. See what interested me most about that conversation was um as I just thought it's little bit of discontinuity of character here because um isn't Tuvok the one who tries his utmost to avoid these kind of social... Oh.
00:41:37
Red D
doesn't like socializing, but I figured he would like a talent show. I don't think he likes drinks on the holodeck, but I can imagine him being, yeah, I'm gonna read my poetry at this talent show.
00:41:49
Jen
I think that you know his better character better than me, Red, so I'll defer to you on that one.
00:41:53
Red D
No, I mean, I think that's just the way i would, um I mean, you know I'm always jumping to the defense of any potential, but that's how I would make the argument and stuff.
00:42:05
Jen
It is a fair point. And we are back to you, I believe. Hmm.
00:42:10
Red D
Me, have you heard your point?
00:42:12
Jen
I think that was your comment, wasn't it? Yeah, no, that was me.
00:42:14
Red D
Oh, yes, that's...
00:42:15
Jen
You know, threw in the geodeals and massive technicians and everything.
00:42:17
Red D
Well, you'll be happy to know that I was able... Yeah, you'll be happy to know that I was actually able to take off a few things that I realised I've already mentioned in passing. Um...
00:42:24
Jen
I mean, I would have mentioned, but you got annoyed last time I did. You got annoyed?
00:42:29
Red D
You got annoyed because you thought i was taking it off because you said it.
00:42:30
Jen
You got annoyed?
00:42:32
Red D
It's like, did you not hear what I just said, Jamie?
00:42:34
Jen
Seriously?
00:42:35
Red D
Um...
00:42:36
Jen
Let's be honest. I've always thought the communication is a one-way street, not a two-way one.
00:42:45
Red D
Ah, right. was trying to make sense of something I wrote. I was like, what was that? Well, I guess another, I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this. Maybe you have. So apologies. haven't looked at your notes, but I mean, when Tuvok makes the log into his log, his diary, I don't know what the terminology is.
00:43:00
Jen
What is that? I was like, what the hell?
00:43:03
Red D
His entry into his log ah while Janeway is standing there about his friendship and, um,
00:43:07
Jen
oh yeah.
00:43:11
Jen
That's so touching.
00:43:12
Red D
it was so touching. And actually, sadly, my uncle passed away last month and he's in Zimbabwe and they live streamed the, um, memorial.
00:43:17
Jen
Oh, I'm so sorry.
00:43:21
Red D
And you're like, you're watching this. You're like, Oh my God, this guy was like adored.
00:43:23
Jen
Oh. Oh. Oh.
00:43:25
Red D
I wish he was here. and then, although I think he knew that he was, um, adored by his family and extended family, but, uh, then at the very next scene, it is Janeway's memorial or pretty soon after that.
00:43:36
Jen
oh
00:43:37
Red D
And she does get to hear what everyone says about her. Uh, and B'Elanna's story and and Harry's story um and that is was very touching, i enjoyed that.
00:43:50
Jen
Yeah, I agree. I love that. I even i even put that down myself to comment on the two-walk moment later on. um But in the meantime, I think um my next...
00:44:06
Jen
probably I think my last point in fact um so probably I'm just really gullible but I was thinking I would believe the alien and I do think that I would still want to say to the alien you know I'm going to stay longer though because I want i agree with Janeway I want to see a little bit of what happens to everyone and yeah I'm sure long term it would get lonely but for now I'm going to stay for a while so probably I'd be safe in that way but in terms of the alien being convincing. I'm not i'm not sure I would have the the brain power. I'm quite impressed with the detective work, basically.
00:44:42
Jen
um Just realising that you know she knows her father always let her make her own mistakes, so by all this pressure to go into the light, and you know if he was...
00:44:52
Jen
an alien inhabiting her mind and obviously he'd know her memories so he'd be able to give her all these stories about when she was young which he does um but yeah I just I think I would probably not be able to work that out maybe i'm underestimating myself I don't know do you think you guys would be convinced?
00:45:12
Red D
um yes i don't think i'd be as cynical or questioning as janeway but i think the thing that would save me like you jenny is that i wouldn't want to go like i would want to stay for sure and then eventually that alien would just be like okay fine whatever ha yeah because i definitely would have stayed
00:45:13
Jen
moving
00:45:24
Jen
yeah yeah they'd move on they'd get bored yeah what about you day i bet i think you'd work out i don't know i think the fact that have some religious views might actually count against me i'll just be like oh this is what's supposed to happen clearly okay oh that's okay
00:45:47
Red D
yeah it's not exactly what I was taught, but okay, fine. because It makes sense in a broader framework.
00:45:50
Jen
can care yeah um it's going into the light i suppose i can see how that would yeah be um what you might one might expect if you were religious i mean
00:46:05
Red D
I guess they do have a bit of life experience that a lot of aliens are out to deceive them. But...
00:46:12
Jen
yeah but you wouldn't necessarily assume alien you might assume just spiritual
00:46:14
Red D
No, you did't i did' I mean... Yeah, it's...
00:46:16
Jen
I mean, you've been engaging with Chakotay at the start of the episode, which is always a dead giveaway that shit's about to get all spirit quest-y.
00:46:24
Red D
spiritual as we said yeah no i i would i would have no reason not to believe that alien for sure
00:46:33
Jen
Yeah. I mean, if I was the captain and I found myself at the start of an episode-sized period of time engaging with Chakotay, then I would just assume that was what was going to happen.
00:46:45
Jen
That or, you know, some love time, but mostly what I said. You make a good point, Red, about um how, I mean, really, at the end of all this, this crew must be incredibly paranoid the point of it being serious mental illness, because the amount they've had to put up with and that they've been subjected to, they're sure surely you're going to come out of being basically suspicious of everyone and everything around you.
00:47:12
Red D
I mean, they should be. I mean, it's body swapping and body snatching and inhabiting and
00:47:16
Jen
You know, Desvedeans and... Stealing organs and... yeah god Stealing Tuvok's sperm. Heaven knows why you'd want to do that. Oh, you mean Chakotay?
00:47:27
Jen
Oh, yeah, good point. Chakotay's sperm. Goodness knows why you would want to do that. Whatever that alien was called that did it. Oh, Seska. Seska, yeah. Mentioning her name, Seska.
00:47:39
Jen
loads Loads of shit going there, really. yeah um People selling state secrets, people whanging you six million light years across to the Delta Quadrant. You've obviously got to deal with the geotourism asset technicians of the Delta Quadrant.
00:47:54
Jen
Again, formidable and terrifying opponents.
00:47:55
Red D
I can't believe you remember that phrase you made up three weeks later.
00:47:59
Jen
that's my Which phrase is that, Ruid?
00:48:04
Red D
As a technician or whatever. cool
00:48:06
Jen
of the Delta Quadrant, don't forget it. The ultimate predator foe, Red. Be ready. They are out there. They are waiting for you. And with that...
00:48:16
Red D
ah yeah
00:48:18
Jen
I think we move on to Jamie's potentially last point. Oh, gosh, yes. Well, you have had your moment. I am going to have what I'm calling an HR moment, but really it's an odd model design moment because, again, there are serious questions to be asked about the maturity of the crew's telepathy division capability.
00:48:37
Jen
They don't pick up on the skipper running around. The alien is neither detected by them, Dr. Death finds it, or exorcised by it, by because, again, Dr. Death does that too.
00:48:47
Jen
So really questions need answering there because this is at least two episodes running where we needed a big performance from them and it just hasn't been there.
00:48:59
Red D
I think maybe i have to see that you're right, agree that you're right that they have a bit of a lack of capability around the.
00:48:59
Jen
They
00:49:06
Jen
really do. it's It's a gap and it's starting to show. Maybe they're just lulling you into that as part of the storyline, because I think later on we discover that Kes is super powerful with her abilities.
00:49:18
Jen
Yes, but right now, right now, in the moment in which the captain was dying repeatedly and had her brain hijacked by an alien,
00:49:20
Red D
You might regret that comment yeah.
00:49:29
Jen
where were they yeah because she's still learning you she's yeah the capability isn't there the potential is there but the capability isn't there i'm just saying like that's what makes it a storyline might want to review this for you know a personal if improvement plan i'm gonna pip maybe that's how why she got better is because she's got a pip yeah um ah right anyway sorry about this I just decided to ruin everything with HR chat you can bring it always back to HR every time anyway ah I wonder what the aliens HR division are making of its failure to make its quotient of souls harvested from eternity this month well bills to pay ah bills to pay mouths to feed yeah that species whatever species 0472 whatever it's basically KPIs is how many humans can you kill you know not kill hijack before they take the last step uh anywho back to you red yes
00:50:00
Red D
actually an HR podcast.
00:50:09
Red D
Yeah, he's probably got a KPI estimate. I forgot.
00:50:23
Red D
Yes.
00:50:32
Red D
Yeah, I think I'll just... think something's already been touched on. But um
00:50:39
Red D
um was just surprised to see the Eye of Sauron in the episode. Did you notice that?
00:50:44
Jen
I was going ask, I saw that on your notes and with the tick and I was like, she hasn't mentioned this. How has that ticked?
00:50:49
Red D
I was just pre-empting my tick.
00:50:50
Jen
where Where is it? The Ives. Oh, is it the shining light?
00:50:52
Red D
When he, no, like the shining light, then he, don't know if it's before, after he enters back into the light, you get the full on eye with the iris or the red and everything. Maybe you're writing down a note.
00:51:03
Jen
Yeah, now know where Peter Jackson got it from. I definitely noticed the light change from white to red. And I was like, oh, that's nice. So it's basically like connotations of heaven turning into hell.
00:51:14
Red D
Yes.
00:51:14
Jen
Yeah. As you realise he's evil. The captain telling her to go back to hell. He's actually evil.
00:51:18
Red D
Yeah.
00:51:19
Jen
but also he's actually, because you're finding out he's evil and not, you know, a sort of spirit, good spirit come to guide her to the light. Not the kind of spirit that Chakotay prays to when he's going like, if there are some random spirits here who, you know, I haven't pissed off too much, can you, you know, look on this prayer kindly? Yeah.
00:51:38
Red D
Yes, no, that's a good point about the life change actually as well. So, but yeah, I just noticed little, what I would call, I have Saren, but I'm sure has much longer um history as a trope or an image.
00:51:42
Jen
Yeah.
00:51:52
Jen
Well, given Jamie is now um he's now um dealing with a cat who is demanding to be fed, am going to just say it any last, I think I'm done with my comments, but any last comments before we move on to themes?
00:52:08
Jen
Anyone else?
00:52:08
Red D
No?
00:52:08
Jen
I would like to say that when I found B'Elanna's speech genuinely affecting and thus it made a good element of comic relief to have Tom Paris basically playing the funeral version of the groomsman at the wedding who has prepared his wedding speech ushering the one who hasn't prepared the wedding speech off going, thank you very much, that was great when it's clear that his speech isn't going well.
00:52:36
Jen
all Sorry, momentary pause while we... um There is a cat that's flooring a sofa. like The cat's...
00:52:43
Red D
Okay.
00:52:44
Jen
is trying to get our attention so that we feed it by clawing the good sofa. yeah so Just in case there's ever a Netflix documentary about this podcast and how we've been developing humans, Jenny was the one just chewing it away with the cushion.
00:52:48
Red D
Oh, no, not allowed.
00:52:56
Jen
Chewing, chewing, yes. um Okay, so on to themes. um I put death and afterlife, the obvious one. Always got to go for the obvious one.
00:53:07
Jen
But any others, guys? Yeah.
00:53:11
Red D
Yeah, well, picking on i like what i'm picking up on what I said and what Jamie just said, I think just, I mean i don't know it's a theme, but maybe a message, which is like, tell people how much you admire them and care about them and love them while they're alive.
00:53:22
Jen
Yeah.
00:53:23
Red D
Because they don't all get to hang around as ghosts at their memorial or funeral. So, um yeah, I'll say that.
00:53:28
Jen
That's a very good point. I would like to talk about the entire episode being about one ginormous piece of pre-shadowing from the captain saying, I want to know if Tom and B'Elanna ever get over the LNC and develop into genuine friends.
00:53:43
Red D
Yes.
00:53:46
Jen
Oh, yes, yes.
00:53:47
Red D
Yes.
00:53:48
Jen
Friendship, yes. Friendship. Just like you with that bottle of champagne on that yacht at the end, captain. Woo! Which is what slash friends Slash warm beer, slash launch, slash Thames.
00:54:02
Jen
Wait, what's the Thames?
00:54:02
Red D
Oh, sorry. It was a dam in South Africa. Yeah.
00:54:04
Jen
Oh, which one? Zenin?
00:54:06
Red D
No, no, um I don't even know where we were. I mean, that's enough of question. Sorry.
00:54:10
Jen
To be honest.
00:54:10
Red D
Um, Anna Stavridisky- Honest, the point. Stavridisky- Check. Stavridisky- That is so funny. Yes. Great foreshadowing. Anna Stavridisky-
00:54:19
Jen
Yes, and clearly i hadn't twigged that that is right before the episode with the Bonfar nonsense. So yeah, very much foreshadowing.
00:54:28
Red D
Oh, yeah.
00:54:30
Jen
Is it me or is there just about like to be an enormous amount of sex foreshadowed in this episode? Or am I making it far cruder than you are?
00:54:42
Jen
I would say it's a pretty sexual tension-filled episode coming up next. Prepare yourself
00:54:47
Red D
Repair yourself.
00:54:49
Jen
I'm wondering which countries I go with. Do I go for Bamshackawawa or do I go for Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang?
00:54:55
Red D
Bangity bang. ah
00:54:58
Jen
No? no Have I ruined it? No, you can't ruin that episode. I love it. Okay, on to Star Player. i actually have already chosen mine this time.
00:55:09
Red D
Yes, me too.
00:55:10
Jen
first, Red.
00:55:14
Red D
Well, I will go because I see, you yeah, strange well, not strangely, but I'm actually selecting Kate Mulgrew, the actress, um because I did love her acting, even she say anything, during Harry's speech um when she really, ah, just was very powerful, I think, when she was listening in to what he was saying about her.
00:55:20
Jen
And then
00:55:29
Jen
when she was coming, it her.
00:55:35
Red D
and then even little addition is her facial expressions when her dad is trying to convince, oh, sorry, I'm getting it, okay.
00:55:35
Jen
And then even a little additional expressions when her dad is trying to convince them to whatever.
00:55:43
Red D
um trying to convince her to let go and her eyebrow twitch and her muscle movement whatever she doesn't get to say anything but it was really great
00:55:55
Jen
yeah i agree i think the facial expressions yeah it was fantastic um however i went for um to rock weirdly um because um i
00:56:04
Red D
nice
00:56:10
Jen
felt that he gave the most memorable sorrow filled line when they all thought Janeway was dead. um Even though it wasn't even at the memorial.
00:56:21
Red D
Yes.
00:56:22
Jen
But just for that line that you mentioned earlier, Red, I would also like to the record to show that I have lost a good friend as well, one whom I can never replace. And the words aren't that special. It's just the delivery was really well done you know in terms of it's a Vulcan and emotions are a thing but also the way he conveyed it in a Vulcan personality um I thought it was great.
00:56:46
Red D
Yeah.
00:56:47
Jen
Yeah
00:56:47
Red D
No, I loved it.
00:56:51
Jen
it was really really touching. um I feel bad about continuing my theme of the sort of star player that I choose. um
00:57:00
Red D
Is it an element object that was spotted? It's the hair bubble! It's the hair bubble!
00:57:03
Jen
No, wrong side of the head. It is the cortical stimulator that actually gets Janeway out of the situation. And I'll tell you why. The reason I say that is because that thing is doing double time. Because like those things were never designed to do exorcism of demonic alien diseases. They were only designed to cortical stimulate. And that thing just steps into that role fills the gap left by the crew's telepathy division, doesn't moan about it, doesn't whinge about it, doesn't bitch about it, doesn't ask for a pay rise, just gets in, gets the job done, kicks out the demonic presence, and I think it's an undersung hero in this episode.
00:57:48
Red D
Jamie that is the funniest thing you have ever said and your delivery of those things were not designed for that was so funny
00:57:56
Jen
It's bit disappointing if that's the funniest thing I've ever said. Okay, you must think laughing an awful lot in our acquaintance.
00:57:59
Red D
I think it's extremely funny that's why I'm saying that
00:58:02
Jen
It's okay. We also know that when ah referencing myself, these things weren't designed to be humorous in this language, but it's fine.
00:58:10
Red D
Okay, maybe for me it's the funniest thing you've ever said, but I have a very specific sense of humor.
00:58:14
Jen
No, no, Red. It's fine. It's fine. gosh it's fine It's fine. Don't worry about it It's fine.
00:58:20
Red D
These things are not designed.
00:58:21
Jen
Bye!
00:58:24
Jen
Well, look at that, guys. I've brought us in at exactly 90 seconds under an hour.
00:58:29
Red D
Nice.
00:58:31
Jen
So...
00:58:32
Red D
Brilliant.
00:58:33
Jen
Well, mean, we haven't finished yet.
00:58:35
Red D
Should I start the jingle?
00:58:35
Jen
okay no no, no. I think play for time, Red. No!
00:58:40
Red D
No, let's get this under an hour, baby.
00:58:40
Jen
I think there valid questions that we need to discuss about the metaphysical nature. And do you think it's ever done a cue?
00:58:49
Jen
cue? Yeah. A cue near-death experience into the Matrix. Q powers the human.
00:58:49
Red D
Say that again.
00:58:58
Red D
Next week is blood fever. or Next time is blood fever.
00:59:00
Jen
Q is like Q? Like it's in the Q. Yes. The Q continues. Oh, it's like a Q like people queuing up? No, no, I don't think it does Qs in that respect.
00:59:12
Red D
People are going like, do these people know they're on a podcast?
00:59:13
Jen
Q continues.
00:59:14
Red D
We are talking over each ah
00:59:17
Jen
Well, I'm just saying that, you know, we someone claimed victory before we got there. Also, where's the is the jingle over?
00:59:22
Red D
other.
00:59:24
Jen
Are we done?
00:59:25
Red D
It's over. It's a very short jingle for the end and a very long jingle for the beginning.
00:59:26
Jen
we've got to play the jingle play again. No, we've got 30 seconds to be back on one hour. Play the jingle. Thanks very much, everyone, for listening.
00:59:33
Red D
Bye.
00:59:34
Jen
next week.
00:59:35
Red D
Thank you for moderating.
00:59:35
Jen
Unleash the Cayman. Bye.