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We watch "Resolutions" (S2 Ep.25)
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Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Resolutions”, in which the JC Shippers very nearly get their wish. So close!
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Theme music by Alain D
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Jingle Confusion
00:00:00
Red D
Let's play the jingle.
00:00:04
Red D
Jamie, that's some good directing there.
00:00:05
Jen
Oh, thank you.
00:00:06
Red D
If only we had...
00:00:06
Jen
There was a conductor and a formula.
00:00:09
El Platypo
Make it so.
00:00:10
Red D
oh If only we had Jamie's clapper. Do remember the clapper from that party?
00:00:16
El Platypo
was not my clapper, that was the people's clapper.
00:00:17
Jen
Oh, yeah. Is that what they're called? Cluppers?
00:00:21
Red D
such a dumb name, but I think that is what they're called.
00:00:21
El Platypo
Well,
00:00:24
Jen
Oh.
00:00:24
El Platypo
are we sure it's a clapper?
00:00:27
Red D
You can Google it, but I did look it up afterwards. It's a very disappointing name, I've got to be honest.
00:00:31
El Platypo
I'd rather not Google things that rhyme with clapper.
00:00:31
Red D
No offense.
00:00:34
Red D
OK.
00:00:35
El Platypo
I feel like, you know, the internet might judge me. and changed my algorithm from the carefully curated cats and comedy sketches that it is currently to one populated by things that rhyme with clapper.
00:00:47
Jen
mr
00:00:48
Red D
Slap-up? Sorry. ah
00:00:50
El Platypo
So what was that? Say again.
00:00:52
Red D
I'm going to end the jingle now.
00:00:55
El Platypo
Don't. The algorithm will hear you.
00:00:57
Red D
I didn't know the jingle was that long. I'm a bit confused by these jingles, but I know.
00:01:01
Jen
I think it gets longer every week.
00:01:02
El Platypo
I mean...
00:01:04
Red D
I'm like, I thought they were 15 seconds long. don't know what's going on.
00:01:07
El Platypo
Mm. Mm.
00:01:08
Red D
Maybe it's like a secret AI agent that just goes like, I like the jingle.
00:01:10
Jen
What? Yeah, it was always one minute 13 in. That's a long jingle.
00:01:16
Red D
Yeah, that was long. I don't think my brother would have created such a long jingle. So I don't know what's going on.
00:01:22
Jen
Have words, have words read.
Episode Overview: "Resolutions" and Jamie's Summary
00:01:24
Red D
ah But welcome back, everybody. ah and for Janeway's Children, Season 2, Episode 25. This week, we're talking about the episode called ah Resolutions.
00:01:38
Red D
Gosh, sorry. I don't know why I can remember that without looking at my notes.
00:01:42
Jen
I think it's another one of those that I did.
00:01:42
Red D
So
00:01:44
Jen
like That's a weird title for the actual content. I don't, well, we'll get to it, but.
00:01:48
Red D
that's a good point. That's a good point, Jenny. I can see Jamie is very enthusiastically sitting there waiting to give his one minute summary.
00:01:57
El Platypo
Doing the cat wiggle, I'm doing the cat bum wiggle!
00:01:58
Red D
I
00:02:00
El Platypo
You know when like a cat sort of crouches down and its horn is about to pounce on something and wiggles its butt from left to side? That's me.
00:02:07
Red D
think it's exactly, yep.
00:02:07
El Platypo
I'm here. I'm ready. I'm amped.
00:02:08
Red D
Yes.
00:02:09
El Platypo
Chakotay blows it.
00:02:13
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:02:13
Red D
yes
00:02:14
El Platypo
i There's so much more, but like ah just in the manner of him doing it, Chakotay blows it. That's all anyone needs to know. Chakotay blew it.
00:02:24
El Platypo
Nothing else.
00:02:26
Red D
um Would you like
00:02:26
El Platypo
Chakotay had a shot. He took the shot. He blew it. That's all. No one needs more.
00:02:32
Red D
Well...
00:02:33
El Platypo
That's it. He blew it.
00:02:35
Red D
I feel like Jenny wants to say something.
00:02:35
El Platypo
Oh, wait, you're warm? He blew it, and he blew it back.
00:02:37
Red D
Ooh.
00:02:37
Jen
Well, did he blow it? Because one of my notes is you know, did they or didn't they? Because, you know...
00:02:44
Red D
Ooh.
00:02:44
El Platypo
The very fact you ask, did they, means he blew it. Right.
Isolation on the Planet: Janeway and Chakotay
00:02:50
El Platypo
ah So basically, the Skipper and Chakotay start the episode letting themselves out of stasis pods on a strange natural landscape, which transpires to be a planet where the crew have deposited them...
00:03:05
El Platypo
due to the fact that they appear to have some weird virus that they got from an insect bite to basically be isolated from the crew and also because there was something in the planet's atmosphere that kept it suppressed.
00:03:18
El Platypo
The rest of the episode covers the... travels and the journey of the crew as they struggle with a post-Janeway and Chakotay landscape and end up embracing an ongoing vista of challenges and contrasts with the cold Vulcan logic of Tuvok contrasted against the emotive drivers of a crew who were suffering.
00:03:47
El Platypo
And then Chakotay blows it.
00:03:49
Red D
That's what I was waiting for because when you said and the rest of the episode i thought you were going say was Chakotay blowing it. and You didn't actually give us.
00:03:57
El Platypo
I'd just like to be very clear when I say Chakotay blows it, what I mean is his chance and nothing else.
00:04:03
Red D
Yes. That's Janeway.
00:04:06
Jen
Thank you for the clarification.
00:04:09
El Platypo
I don't know why you're all smirking at the back there, you immature so-and-sos.
00:04:09
Red D
ah
00:04:13
Jen
Well, no, in, you know, that is maybe like English vernacular, I don't know, maybe that means a different thing in America?
00:04:21
El Platypo
yeah
00:04:23
Red D
where most of our listeners seem to be when I bother to check.
00:04:25
Jen
Yes.
00:04:25
El Platypo
Well, I don't know. Maybe if we actually have one of these illusory American fans, they could tell us what blowing something means.
00:04:33
Red D
Answers on a postcard. Okay, I
Episode Reactions and Fan Theories
00:04:35
Red D
can tell we're very excited to talk about this episode.
00:04:35
El Platypo
yeah
00:04:37
Red D
But first, we have some initial reactions. So, unusually, going to put myself first for my initial reaction.
00:04:44
El Platypo
That's completely unacceptable.
00:04:46
Red D
And as the episode started, all I thought was, Ooh. Maybe Jamie, you could do that sound better. But I had a sudden, I'd be like, yes, like, oh yes, this is that episode where, ooh.
00:04:53
El Platypo
Woo!
00:04:58
Red D
I don't know.
00:04:59
Jen
this is
00:05:01
Red D
That was me trying to make the sound of like,
00:05:02
El Platypo
I mean, you sure you don't mean Bing Bang, main amount of Bing Bang?
00:05:06
Red D
oh yeah, that's also a good one. But was like, oh yes, this is the Jay-Z shippers, I think as they're called, the people that really want Janeway and Chakotay to be in a relationship. This episode must have really taking them to the edge, I guess. so but
00:05:20
Jen
Hedge of their seats. Yeah.
00:05:21
Red D
Yes, exactly.
00:05:22
El Platypo
Ah, yes.
00:05:22
Red D
They
00:05:23
El Platypo
I mean, they'd be very happy if Chakotay hadn't blown it.
00:05:27
Red D
would be, what did your guy what did you guys think? Initial reactions, Jenny?
00:05:31
Jen
Oh, well, um I agree with your ooh, except mine would be slightly different ooh. It wouldn't be ooh.
00:05:38
Red D
Oh,
00:05:40
Jen
It'd be more like, ooh, it's this episode, which is what I thought when the opening, because like I couldn't remember what was. The title for me bore no real ah memory, but then the opening scene did.
00:05:54
Jen
And I do like this one. I think this one's quite interesting.
00:05:57
El Platypo
Yeah, I found it a bit of an odd one as a season closer, to be honest with you.
00:06:03
Jen
Was it a season closer?
00:06:07
Red D
I can't comment because I can't remember when I looked at the list of episodes on Wikipedia earlier this week.
00:06:10
Jen
and and might I might look it
00:06:11
El Platypo
like It was the last one of mine, and...
00:06:14
Red D
I think it's either the last one or second last one. We definitely near the end of season two.
00:06:17
El Platypo
Yeah, it felt like a weird one for a last one.
00:06:20
Jen
Yeah. Okay.
00:06:21
El Platypo
Hmm...
00:06:21
Red D
Hmm. Normally they do quite like a dramatic episode for a...
00:06:26
El Platypo
Yeah, i it felt almost like one to say, okay, we've done this season, maybe future ones have a bit more plot arc or direction.
00:06:32
Red D
Hmm.
00:06:36
El Platypo
I don't know. it felt almost like a little bit like the last one of the just having a bit of a random explore across a new quadrant and maybe future ones accelerate the plot and the journey back to Earth a bit more.
00:06:49
El Platypo
I don't know.
00:06:50
Red D
How interesting. Interesting. Jamie looks like she's doing some research there, but feel so feel free to interject when you...
00:06:55
El Platypo
ah
00:06:55
Jen
I am. No, yes, its it is not the last one.
00:06:57
Red D
but Okay.
00:06:57
El Platypo
Wikipedia, how you survive the podcast.
00:06:58
Jen
It's
00:07:01
Jen
we we it's not the last one. The next one is the last one. Oh gosh, I
00:07:05
El Platypo
What's the next
00:07:06
Red D
So they are just little pots are around through space, Jamie, I guess.
00:07:09
El Platypo
one?
00:07:10
Red D
um
00:07:10
Jen
and oh gosh i just saw what the next one is.
00:07:13
Red D
Oh no, what is it?
00:07:13
Jen
Anywho. yeah
00:07:14
Red D
He's all upset.
00:07:15
El Platypo
A few... what's the next one
00:07:17
Red D
Um...
00:07:17
Jen
Well, I think you guys will like it, but you know how I feel about like the but what they call Kazon.
00:07:21
Red D
Not one.
00:07:21
El Platypo
q
00:07:24
Red D
Oh.
00:07:24
El Platypo
oh more case I mean, their hair is amazing, but I think they're poor plot agents.
00:07:29
Red D
The hair is amazing. Right, so should we dive in to our favorite points or interesting discussions?
00:07:32
Jen
I
00:07:35
Red D
Oh, Jenny, I see you have quite a lot this evening.
00:07:37
El Platypo
This is...
00:07:37
Jen
don't know, just blowing out of me.
00:07:37
Red D
Great. So would you like to kick us off?
00:07:41
Jen
Oh, okay. um With a really like minor trivial one. They're the best ones.
00:07:46
El Platypo
this
00:07:46
Jen
I just found it really hilarious.
Character Critiques: Neelix and the Doctor
00:07:48
Jen
The very early scene where we have them, ah well, all the leadership team, minus Dakota and Janeway, sat, you know, brainstorming, what are we going to do about this situation?
00:07:58
Jen
And they all give their, you know, official stance, you know, and i don't know, think you probably have like Balana talking about it from a, what can we do, is there anything we can do in terms of, um ah I want to say the engineering, engineering and a various different, you know, stances in keeping with characters roles.
00:08:17
Jen
And we have Neelix chiming in with his official, as official morale officer representative Well, I can tell you that the morale of the crew is going to suffer.
00:08:30
Jen
you i just I just thought, where would we be without his critical leadership team role of morale officer and that kind of you know insight in a seriously important leadership team meeting?
00:08:41
Red D
so Well, when i as you were saying that and I was reading along with your notes, I did remember that Neelux basically forced himself onto the leadership team and gave himself that role.
00:08:52
Red D
so
00:08:52
Jen
and I feel like he'd do really well in a corporate environment.
00:08:54
Red D
Yes. yeah he would Because people do like him ah or tolerate him or... Yeah, but yes. i mean I mean, also, i had a little point that I'll just throw in here so i don't have to say it later, but we find out during this discussion that I think the doctor hasn't deactivated himself in like 30 days.
00:09:11
Red D
So, you know, i guess if you contrast their contribution
00:09:16
Jen
Yeah.
00:09:16
El Platypo
ah
00:09:17
Red D
and just so problem solving, sorry, Nelix, you are going to come down on them.
00:09:20
Jen
yeah
00:09:23
El Platypo
I mean, I just think you're all being very unfair on a much-loved character with an underrated reputation for competence.
00:09:31
Red D
You've changed, Jamie.
00:09:33
El Platypo
Well, I just think you guys have been awful bullies and enabling me in some quite negative and toxic reactions to him, and I think that I won't stand for any longer.
00:09:33
Jen
Changed his tune.
00:09:44
Red D
My, how times have changed.
Thematic Exploration: Logic vs Emotion
00:09:46
El Platypo
don't see.
00:09:48
Red D
um Jamie, I saw you did cut out there, but it was very flawless your return to the podcast. I don't know there's anything you want to say about Neelix or are you happy to move on to your next point?
00:09:59
El Platypo
Everything that needs to be said has already been said by the popular reaction to your meanness about him behind his back where he can't defend himself.
00:10:10
Red D
So it's all you, 0.1.
00:10:10
El Platypo
He said morale would suffer and it suffered.
00:10:11
Red D
point one
00:10:13
El Platypo
That's all you need to know.
00:10:14
Jen
come <unk>ing him I him. mean, you know, how well he'd do in a corporate environment.
00:10:15
El Platypo
That's all you need to know.
00:10:18
Jen
i mean, that's a compliment, surely.
00:10:20
El Platypo
Yes, if you're the devil. ah I'm not allowed to say this. No, sorry, carry on. ah Yes, i I didn't actually hear what was said about Neelix, but I assume it was negative, so I'm in opposition.
00:10:36
Red D
Well, it depends what you think of the corporate world, I think. So moving on. Jamie, are you ready to hit us with your first point?
00:10:40
Jen
hey
00:10:43
El Platypo
What?
00:10:43
Red D
right
00:10:44
El Platypo
For a change on this, rather than going for immediate humour, I thought that I would go for an attitude and a style of podcasting for this particular episode, known as beard stroking.
00:10:59
El Platypo
So I decided this when I realised that as I was writing my notes throughout this, I just constantly ended up contrasting things. So I decided I would say that found this to be an episode of constant contrasts while stroking my beard.
00:11:14
El Platypo
And for the remainder of my comments, it will always be a contrast of something which is contrasted in a scene. So I think that the overall theme of the episode being one of
00:11:21
Red D
Okay.
00:11:22
Jen
Thank you.
00:11:30
El Platypo
logic-driven order adherence versus emotion and loyalty-driven desire to engage the Bideans and do something, inverting the typical scene of things, was the first contrast I'd like to be as striking you want people's attention to.
00:11:45
Red D
I wish this was a video podcast because your beard stroking of your non-existent beard is thing to behold. To be honest, I can almost see your beard.
00:11:53
Jen
so
00:11:54
Red D
I love it.
00:11:54
El Platypo
I mean, as I look at my reflections as I do this, it's a bit like watching a ferret fellate itself, but yes.
00:11:55
Red D
It's not. You really look like a little beard. Tchaikovsky beard? Marxist beard?
00:12:05
Red D
I don't know.
00:12:06
El Platypo
Guy Fawkes-peared.
00:12:08
Red D
Okay, yeah. Jenny's trying to stroke her non-existent beard.
00:12:11
El Platypo
Jenny is just horrified by the mental image of the ferret.
00:12:16
Jen
I'm just trying to outdo Jamie's beer stroking with my own female take on it.
00:12:18
El Platypo
You have to point the chin up to the side. You have to point it up and to the side as you do it. Anyway, that was me doing it striking.
00:12:25
Red D
So I...
00:12:26
El Platypo
i'm I'm willing to do it for other people's contributions as well, though.
00:12:26
Red D
Nice.
00:12:30
Red D
Great. So you're going to be, I guess, sticking a bit to that theme through this episode of Contrast.
00:12:34
El Platypo
Oh yes, contrast.
00:12:35
Red D
Nice.
00:12:36
El Platypo
And I'm going to be drawing your attention to notable examples.
00:12:36
Red D
Okay.
00:12:39
Red D
Very good. I will dive into my first point then, which is... I don't really know what this meant. And you guys had so many, so trying to make up for some on the spot. But um ah Jenny, how did you feel about hearing the Vidians again?
00:12:54
Red D
Because I know how much you hate them.
00:12:54
El Platypo
Riddians.
00:12:55
Jen
Oh well fortunately once I you know got over the strange choice of name for this episode did actually remember it really well and I knew this was one of those where the the scary side of the Badeans has I think they've largely moved on from that now um you know and they've got I I remembered the character that um the doctor sort of had that sort of semi-relationship with um and that she was sort of going to come along and um there wasn't any real risk in my mind
00:13:04
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:13:17
Red D
Yes.
00:13:24
Jen
organ harvesting for this particular episode.
00:13:25
Red D
OK, good.
00:13:26
Jen
So, you know, it was safe.
00:13:29
Red D
I was safe. And I guess at the beginning of the episode, because when Janeway and Chakotay are left on the planet, she hands over the helm, leadership command, to Tuvok with very strict instructions not to contact the Bidians.
00:13:39
El Platypo
six
00:13:44
Red D
so uh i couldn't remember but yes i knew it wasn't going to be like the dian heavy also i think as the memories came back but i was just curious if there was a shiver of horror down your spine every time yeah
00:13:56
Jen
o Well that's- this is the problem with knowing some of them too well I guess. Probably that was the first time I watched it
00:14:03
El Platypo
There's nothing like watching organ melting plague to totally take the edge off it.
00:14:03
Red D
ah
00:14:08
Red D
yeah well yeah i had a very small voice point so back to you jenny um
00:14:13
Jen
Oh well, um well it's another- I mean, you know, I think a lot of mine are quite and little silly things. Maybe later on there's a bit more like yeah
00:14:22
El Platypo
This
00:14:22
Jen
But this one is just, I really just want to take a moment to appreciate tough managerial balana, which is hilarious, ah where a crewman has you know done some shoddy work.
00:14:26
El Platypo
is.
00:14:29
El Platypo
sister
00:14:32
Jen
um And she's saying, oh, so much wrong with this, typos or whatever it is, she says. And the crewman says, yes, I apologize. I have been a bit distracted.
00:14:42
Jen
you know They basically just lost their captain and first first officer.
00:14:46
El Platypo
i
00:14:46
Jen
And the response is, we've all been distracted, crewman. That's no excuse. She's a tough manager.
00:14:50
Red D
ah
00:14:50
El Platypo
I love that moment. I loved her deadpan delivery. There are mistakes. It's incomplete. exactly.
00:14:58
Jen
unacceptable.
00:14:59
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:14:59
Jen
see
00:14:59
El Platypo
yes exactly
00:15:01
Red D
and also I think in that scene i mean yeah she has very little sympathy for the her fellow crewman but she's also probably being harsher on her because she's also distracted ah by the like you know
00:15:13
El Platypo
Taking out her frustrations on those who can't punch back at her.
00:15:18
Jen
Outrageous.
00:15:19
Red D
Silver Outrageous they're gonna stroke your beard there Jamie it was close. Sarah Silver PB, A. Mean thing
00:15:24
El Platypo
I only stroke at my own comments. I'm not mean to other people's.
00:15:27
Red D
i main thing okay. PB, A. But yeah she was buts the delivery was great agree. Sarah Silver PB, Jamie on to you.
00:15:37
El Platypo
So I'm going to stroke my beard at this. The first contrast I would like to draw everyone's attention to is the captain's extremely clear orders to Tuvok as her last order. Do not contact the Vigilians.
00:15:51
El Platypo
The very first line we hear from anyone else who isn't Tuvok, Chakotay, or the captain in the sort of last farewell comms is Tom, so we rescind the order to Paris as the very first reaction the captain's order.
00:16:05
El Platypo
Just showing you the amount of discipline and army led efficiency that is the Starfleet brand a well oiled military machine
00:16:14
Jen
and subordination
00:16:17
Red D
I don't even, I don't think I noticed that. that's right That's very funny. um I guess it would be Paris.
00:16:23
El Platypo
yeah and well you say that you say that but he's not the most rebellious or the most unlikely rebelious rebel on this
00:16:34
Red D
No, I'm sure we'll touch on that more. Do you have anything to say about Tom, Jenny?
00:16:40
Jen
Well, I was just thinking actually, I didn't think of it during the episode, but Jamie referring to Tom being the first one to mention this. um I don't know if this is lim trying to show Tom's influence on Harry, you know, he's starting to like, you know, over the course of however many seasons, you see Tom taking on a lot of Harry's, in my opinion, fabulous qualities.
00:16:54
Red D
Hmm.
00:16:59
El Platypo
see. I'm used
00:17:02
Jen
and But you also see like a bit of it an influence on Harry from Tom, where Harry is by the book, you know, ba all the rules, follow, follow like a sheep.
00:17:02
El Platypo
to see.
00:17:07
El Platypo
he
00:17:12
Jen
um
00:17:12
Red D
so
00:17:12
Jen
But he's sort of learning, you know, when it counts, it sometimes is a good idea to voice your, your opinions.
00:17:22
El Platypo
Hmm. Oh, you picked up my main rebel. So proud of him.
00:17:28
Red D
i love me yeah I love that but they have that influence on each other. Well I'll throw in my next point here because at the start of the episode
00:17:32
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:17:38
Red D
When they're having to make this hard decision, i was like, yep, perfect. Make Tuvok in charge. If you really want to do once something done, he's the perfect person to do it because he will follow it strictly. And then as I was watching this, i was like, or does he?
00:17:51
Red D
Because I guess has to go on his own.
00:17:52
El Platypo
Yes.
00:17:54
Red D
But he is a very safe pair of hands if you have to be your crew in someone's hands.
00:17:58
Jen
and
00:17:59
Red D
And I think Janeway knows that.
00:18:00
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:18:02
Red D
And what a comfort it must be to be able to delegate that to someone who will do a good job.
00:18:07
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:18:09
Jen
It is and I mean I have to say I'm just going to bask in the glory of you using the phrase read there a safe pair of hands which
00:18:09
Red D
Yes, Jenny.
00:18:19
Jen
I got my latest work contract based on, according to, according to me being a safe pair of hands.
00:18:22
El Platypo
Thank
00:18:26
Jen
So I am in the same league as Tuvok.
00:18:27
Red D
There we
00:18:28
Jen
I mean, I, world star for me.
00:18:29
Red D
You are! You're now operating in the ah galaxy level.
00:18:33
Jen
Yeah.
00:18:36
Red D
but Amazing.
00:18:38
Jen
Um,
00:18:39
Red D
Amazing. High praise for sure. um Right. So ah back to you, Jenny. We have a whistling round.
00:18:46
Jen
yeah um I realise my next point is kind of linked to another one I have later, so I'm going to sort of skip that a bit. um Getting on to slightly more of the, you know, deep and meaningful elements now.
00:18:59
Jen
I really love the delivery of Tuvok's line, the classic live long and prosper.
00:19:04
Red D
yeah
00:19:05
Jen
I mean, it was used to great effect, I feel.
00:19:05
El Platypo
I
00:19:07
Jen
You know, Janeway gave her, you know, pretty and move emotional goodbye speech, and then Tuvok followed it up with, you know, talking about how um critical she was as a leader and you know and may I add it has been an honor serving with you live long and prosper oh brilliant loved it
00:19:25
Red D
It was so good. It was really good.
00:19:28
El Platypo
she was just thinking there it was great until he got derivative, but yes, it was good.
00:19:28
Red D
jane
00:19:32
Jen
hmm
00:19:33
Red D
I think it's so hard because that, it just, for me, that moment is delivered so well, it like kind of references all Star Trek in a sense, like, and it's, I mean, sorry, just call it all Star Trek, the original Star Trek, I guess, maybe.
00:19:42
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:19:42
Jen
and
00:19:48
Red D
and
00:19:49
El Platypo
Genesis of Star Trek.
00:19:51
Red D
And it's such, it's like, you know, it's a phrase that everybody knows it could be considered corny. It could be considered, um, whatever, but but the delivery just makes it so meaningful.
00:19:57
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:19:59
Red D
I mean, really did enjoy that moment.
00:20:00
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:20:01
Jen
You're right. I think a lot of it is like the history of it as well. There's a lot of history behind that phrase. But that's another reason why i think he delivered it so well because yeah, it totally was Courtney, but you know, I love a bit of cheese.
00:20:09
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:20:13
Red D
No, i don't think it was I don't think it was corny, but it's like an overused, not just overused, they don't overuse it in the in the series whatever.
00:20:14
Jen
Yeah,
00:20:21
Jen
and
00:20:21
Red D
I think they use it quite sparingly, but you know as a kid, like live long and prosper.
00:20:21
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:20:25
Red D
but i I don't know, you're just joking around with it and all this kind of stuff.
00:20:26
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:20:28
Jen
yeah.
00:20:28
Red D
so
00:20:29
Jen
yeah
00:20:29
El Platypo
um with
00:20:29
Jen
No, you're right. They just used it to to great effect. ah And I think, you know, when you use things like that, there is, as an actor, a lot of pressure, like I would imagine, and like um options for it to go wrong.
00:20:33
Red D
Yeah.
00:20:39
Red D
Yeah.
00:20:44
Jen
You know, you're delivering a line that is super famous and has been and in the vocab of some, you know, very famous actors over the years.
00:20:48
Red D
Yes.
00:20:56
Jen
um
00:20:56
El Platypo
Agree, agree.
00:20:56
Red D
Yeah.
00:20:57
Jen
So i think he does a great job.
00:20:59
Red D
Great.
00:21:00
El Platypo
great agree
00:21:02
Red D
Amazing. Jamie.
00:21:08
El Platypo
I would like to bring the next contrast, it stroking you to your attention, of the Captain and Chakotas choice in deck or style.
00:21:20
El Platypo
Initially presented to us as beige versus grey, but then we find out it's beige versus grey versus polka dots.
00:21:23
Red D
Bye.
00:21:27
El Platypo
And I'd just like you to comment on the psychological intricacies of that comparison. or the false comparison initially, and then the actual comparison. Because in fact, when offered the comparison of Beige or Gray, the correct response is, they're the same.
00:21:43
Jen
yeah
00:21:44
Red D
Well, you're referring to Chakotay's unpacking the all the stuff that's been beamed down to the path so they can build their module house or something. And he asked as if there's a choice which color wall should be on the inside.
00:21:57
Red D
And I was like, isn't
00:21:57
El Platypo
I don't hear it. If you're telling me he said Beige or Gray, then yes I am.
00:22:00
Red D
Yeah, he did say page of gray. But i was like, isn't one side the outside and one side the inside?
00:22:04
Jen
That is exactly what I thought.
00:22:05
Red D
I didn't understand.
00:22:08
El Platypo
Only if
00:22:08
Jen
thought, look at that panel. It's quite clear there's an outside and inside.
00:22:11
Red D
But obviously, that
00:22:12
El Platypo
you assume that it can only go outside out. Maybe it's multifunctional. Maybe it can be put to show the inside, to give it a little bit of zazazaz to a Star Trek ah temporary hab.
00:22:26
El Platypo
Maybe that's the case.
00:22:26
Red D
Anna Bryson- Which was quite down on the staff eat interior design, but i was like. Anna Bryson-
00:22:32
El Platypo
and this And this is the juxtaposition that is owed us. Beige or grey versus polka dots. Beige or grey versus polka dots.
00:22:40
Red D
At pinstripes and someone mentioned pinstripes.
00:22:42
Jen
Chakotay wanted pinstripe, yeah.
00:22:42
Red D
Anna Bryson- yeah.
00:22:44
Jen
Blue and green, if I remember correctly.
00:22:45
El Platypo
To me, that's just another version of beige or grey. So uniform, so linear, as opposed to the crazy freedom of polka dots.
00:22:56
Red D
Well, do you think someone who wants polka dots could be with someone who wants pinstripes? That is the question.
00:23:02
El Platypo
Are you telling me that one of them wants pinstripes? Because if you're telling me that, then I am surprised.
00:23:04
Red D
Yes, someone said pinstripe.
00:23:08
Jen
That's what Chakotay wants, and Jane Ray wants Polka Dots.
00:23:10
Red D
Yes. ah Yeah.
00:23:12
Jen
That's the whole...
00:23:12
Red D
Yeah.
00:23:12
El Platypo
but we're We're saying that the person who's supposed to sort of represent a sort of, ah
00:23:22
El Platypo
I don't know, Native American tribesman is into pinstripe.
00:23:26
Red D
It's a very stylish stripe.
00:23:27
Jen
Apparently.
00:23:29
El Platypo
Okay. Fair enough. I take that back.
00:23:33
Red D
But a good contrast example. And maybe that's, you know, foreshadowing that they don't really match. I don't know.
00:23:40
El Platypo
think he blew it then.
00:23:40
Jen
Maybe.
00:23:41
Red D
I think that's a step too far.
00:23:43
El Platypo
I questions, I think he blew it. Hmm. ah haveque
00:23:46
Red D
Ah, yes.
00:23:46
El Platypo
i think
00:23:48
Red D
He did blow it there. You're right. He should have been yeah, pulpitors would be great.
00:23:52
Jen
I also feel like we might be reading too much into the inside outside thing too read.
00:23:56
Red D
i
00:23:57
Jen
I think maybe it was like a jokey jokey banter.
00:23:59
Red D
Yes, yes. Oh, that's why I'm so bad at banter.
00:24:01
El Platypo
I
00:24:02
Red D
I'd be like, why are you asking me that, you stupid idiot? Like, what's that?
00:24:06
El Platypo
mean, to be fair, that's a pretty good intro to banter, it's just to call someone a stupid idiot, but they're doing something ridiculous.
00:24:06
Jen
Yes, same.
00:24:10
Red D
that's
00:24:13
El Platypo
It's worked for me in every one of our interactions.
00:24:13
Red D
Why wasting my time?
00:24:14
Jen
and
00:24:16
Red D
whole life falls into place. Okay.
00:24:18
Jen
yeah
00:24:23
El Platypo
I mean, I haven't been there for all of it, but, you know, just the bits where I've mocked you.
00:24:27
Red D
Yeah, that is, that's
00:24:27
Jen
yeah The best part is, i don't know if you've been like in a work scenario talking about work and then someone drops some sort of banter comment in and you're so focused on work that it just does not compute.
00:24:40
Jen
Like you take it on board and you only realise Um, five minutes later when you've still been talking about work and, oh,
00:24:40
Red D
true.
00:24:46
Red D
That has happened, I think, for myself. But it sounds like you can relate, Jenny, so ah i don't feel so bad.
00:24:52
Jen
ah I can.
00:24:55
Red D
um
00:24:55
El Platypo
That's
00:24:56
Red D
like my I'm going to jump in here to my next point because, well, we haven't really, ah well, I'm not going to get into Janeway and Takote just yet, but I have to honest, they seem to literally be quite giddy about their camping trip on this planet that is going to last for the rest of their lives.
00:25:11
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:25:12
Red D
I mean, like...
00:25:13
El Platypo
Hmm. I can't feel like they're taking it seriously. I just don't know why. It's difficult to count on.
00:25:18
Red D
They seemed quite happy and... As Chakote pointed out, they're not really roughing it. They have science equipment.
00:25:24
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:25:24
Red D
They have and a house. They have all this stuff. um Except the bath, which we'll get into, I'm sure.
00:25:27
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:25:29
Red D
But, I mean, are they looked...
00:25:30
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:25:32
Jen
Are we all getting into it or just one of us?
00:25:34
El Platypo
so
00:25:34
Jen
All together? See they can banter!
00:25:36
Red D
Very good, Jenny. Very good.
00:25:39
El Platypo
This
00:25:39
Red D
um But, yes, i was just like, wow, they're not even pretending to be sad about the fact that the two of them are not going to be straddled on a planet alone together.
00:25:45
El Platypo
is.
00:25:48
Jen
This is true.
00:25:48
Red D
What did you guys think? Maybe... i maybe I mean, I do like camping. So I understand but
00:25:53
El Platypo
this success
00:25:54
Jen
oh I hate camping. um Yeah, I mean, maybe a part of it, I kind of interpreted it as their, like, you know, officer, you know, start trick type Star Trek not Star Trek, Starfleet type training to, you know, red get on with things, take the positive, you know, put a po positive spin on it, be sort of proactive and and also that,
00:25:57
Red D
Oh,
00:26:10
El Platypo
um
00:26:17
Jen
You know, Jane Way especially was very focused on the scientific aspect to try and solve the problem and get back to the group. um
00:26:26
Red D
that's a good point yeah
00:26:27
Jen
And, you know, maybe she's happy because she isn't facing reality.
00:26:31
El Platypo
yeah
00:26:32
Red D
yeah that is a good point actually i didn't think of it like that but she has like a very specific concrete challenge which she thinks she can solve and as long as she's got enough time and that's just her no you can also have an opinion like yeah yeah it's denial in her character sorry jimmy
00:26:32
Jen
like
00:26:40
El Platypo
I think she's in denial. I mean, yes, what you said. Sorry.
00:26:45
Jen
That's it, in denial.
00:26:51
El Platypo
Yes, everyone has to deny things occasionally. I, for instance, deny the fact that I have been known to make a comment that hasn't gone down perfectly.
00:27:01
Red D
so Oh, ouch. No, I'm kidding. Okay.
00:27:05
Jen
yeah i mean it might not be right i don't know that she's someone you'd expect to be in denial or if she's on denial she's ah i would imagine her to be aware of it which i think she is like she you know she specifically says to chakotay i'm not ready to give up yet and stay maybe she knows how to um like manage herself so she knows that she needs to stay in the headspace of we still might get out of here
00:27:12
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:27:16
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:27:23
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:27:31
Jen
at least for a bit longer before accepting the reality of the situation. And that's very, you know, self-aware, guess.
00:27:41
El Platypo
yeah Yeah, I agree.
00:27:42
Red D
yeah that's all Yeah, I agree. Those are all great points. And i I didn't necessarily think of them. um
00:27:47
El Platypo
I agree. Yeah.
00:27:48
Red D
Great. ah Jenny, back to you.
00:27:51
Jen
Oh, sorry.
00:27:52
El Platypo
It's
00:27:52
Jen
I feel like I'm just taking over this episode. I'm just jumping on your point.
00:27:55
El Platypo
amazing.
00:27:55
Red D
Dora, you're speaking the same as everybody else.
00:27:56
El Platypo
We're here for it.
00:27:57
Red D
You are supposed to talk.
00:27:58
El Platypo
People want to hear a voice that isn't mine, damn it.
00:28:00
Red D
it's It is called a podcast.
00:28:01
El Platypo
Give it to them.
00:28:02
Jen
but
00:28:04
Red D
ah A terrible name, but it means you're supposed to talk.
00:28:04
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:28:04
Jen
but
00:28:06
Red D
Yeah.
00:28:07
Jen
Excellent, good, right, well in that case. um Oh there's quite a lot good lines in this one so I also really liked Chakotay's very good point I felt about not sacrificing the present for a future that may never happen and I just feel like there's probably yes and there's a lot of situations I think you know you could probably apply that to at various times in your life
00:28:14
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:28:21
El Platypo
That was a good bid, Stryker.
00:28:32
El Platypo
No.
00:28:32
Jen
um However, and this is where you can be in strict, Jamie, because on the other hand, or aka in contrast, Janeway is a scientist and the search does give her something to focus on and it's something that she's like passionate and interested about.
00:28:40
El Platypo
No.
00:28:47
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:28:49
Jen
And then this kind of leads me on to another point, which is that I know we're probably going to talk a lot about Janeway and Chakotay and all of the various things that go on you know, the Nick the towel, the flirting, but I do find Chakotay quite off-putting throughout this episode, like, I mean, he's got, like, he's got the ogling when she's in the bath towel to start with, and then there's all these, like, weird postures where he's, like, you know, he's got a leg up on a rock and he's leaning over.
00:29:00
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:29:08
Red D
Oh,
00:29:09
El Platypo
yeah
00:29:17
El Platypo
Yes!
00:29:17
Red D
oh he's got the Jonathan Ryker posture.
00:29:20
Jen
Yes, is exactly that.
00:29:20
El Platypo
Yes!
00:29:21
Red D
yes.
00:29:22
Jen
and
00:29:22
Red D
Well, he is not
00:29:22
El Platypo
Oh, dear.
00:29:23
Jen
And then, in addition to that, it does feel like he's being quite pushy, like, you know, she's not, he's not really supporting this, like, passionate, like, this ah this passion project that Jamie's got going with the like investigating all the bugs um and quite sort of pushy.
00:29:27
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:29:33
El Platypo
Yeah. True.
00:29:36
Red D
well he is not So good.
00:29:38
El Platypo
S-s-s-s-s-s.
00:29:39
Jen
Now go on.
00:29:40
Red D
No, interesting, interesting, interesting. But no, well, i also feel like I'm...
00:29:43
Jen
I think Red has a different view or she goes in.
00:29:47
El Platypo
Batman is buff and I will not hear otherwise.
00:29:47
Red D
might
00:29:50
Red D
Yeah, he is.
00:29:51
El Platypo
All right, well that is, i sorry, I thought I was going with that as your piss-take feed. That's your actual feed. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
00:29:57
Red D
take. No, Jamie, let's hear from you first. Let's hear the male perspective.
00:30:00
El Platypo
Batman is buff and I will not hear otherwise.
00:30:03
Jen
I think he's Red's type.
00:30:03
Red D
Agreed.
00:30:04
El Platypo
I didn't actually have a view. I just thought I'd go with sexy and he knows it.
00:30:09
Red D
Well, first of all, does he need to support her passion project? That's the only bit going push on now. He doesn't distract her from her passion project. And they're not partners in any sense.
00:30:18
Jen
True.
00:30:21
Red D
So he's all they' not obliged to support.
00:30:22
El Platypo
I mean, does one have to be having sex to be a partner?
00:30:23
Red D
And no, that's true.
00:30:26
Jen
Hmm.
00:30:26
Red D
But also, it's a little bit to the way they both ah kind of coping. Because we were just saying Janeway copes by being very focused on this project, believing she'll succeed.
00:30:34
El Platypo
So does Chakotay on his project.
00:30:37
Red D
Chakotay could be like, I can't hold it on to this.
00:30:39
El Platypo
Oh, getting his hair plans. Sorry, carry on.
00:30:42
Red D
My God. and Chakotay is more like, maybe his perspective is, I can't hold on any hope. I have to adapt to how things are now. ah So it's kind of difficult for him to be excited about something that might not work out.
00:30:55
Red D
Just going to throw that out there.
00:30:55
Jen
yeah.
00:30:57
El Platypo
I mean, there's a lot... I'm not going to be... I promised myself after my last comment I wouldn't be gratuitous. So I won't. You are very right. That is all.
00:31:08
Red D
No, be gratuitous because now no one's talking and someone will hear what you actually say because everything you've talking since you said.
00:31:13
El Platypo
Well, I was just going to say that if he's looking for things to give up hope on, shot at Captain Catherine Janeway is one of them at the end of this episode.
00:31:24
Red D
Oh.
00:31:27
Jen
but
00:31:28
Red D
But Janie's gonna, yeah.
00:31:28
Jen
But I just feel there is a question as to, you know, did they or didn't they?
00:31:30
El Platypo
Unless he gets turned into salivander.
00:31:35
Jen
You know, the moment when they both touch hands and they've had this very serious talk and Chakotay's basically declared that he'll follow her to the ends of the earth and how he's found peace in, you know, serving underneath her.
00:31:51
Jen
And then it cuts out onto the next morning. so
00:31:55
El Platypo
I mean,
00:31:55
Jen
I think they purposely left that open-ended.
00:31:56
Red D
Oh.
00:31:58
El Platypo
I think they shut it down pretty hard, to be honest, given the fact that she sees straight through this whole bullshit story about, my father told me a story of in his tribe, a warrior who was an angry man.
00:31:58
Red D
Mm.
00:32:10
El Platypo
He only found peace in serving his woman who captured him. And then he just looks him and says, that's not really a story, is And he's like, no, no, I just thought that's the reason why.
00:32:20
Jen
Yeah, but the look on her face as she says it.
00:32:22
Red D
They are.
00:32:23
Jen
She's smiling, her eyes are beaming, she's crying, tears rolling down.
00:32:23
Red D
Yes.
00:32:27
El Platypo
Is she? is she is she is she just trying not to laugh?
00:32:28
Jen
Yeah.
00:32:31
Red D
No. No. Because...
00:32:33
El Platypo
And being so mean.
00:32:34
Red D
i mean, he only tells her that story because they have that massage moment, I guess. Which I thought was handled kind of quite well because...
00:32:40
El Platypo
Yes. Much like the object of massage, but carry on.
00:32:46
Red D
ah Because she's company complaining about a sore neck. Then he's like, oh, let me help. um And then he's like, he kind of lowers the sexual tension by bringing up his mother and saying, yes, my, only my, was like, if he hadn't said that, Sparks would have blown.
00:32:56
El Platypo
Yeah, I think that's when he really blew because up until that point, he was generating some resin until he brought his mum into the conversation.
00:33:05
Jen
It was a bit creepy because you're like, well, did you massage your mom like this?
00:33:06
Red D
Well,
00:33:08
Jen
I mean...
00:33:09
Red D
Well, yeah I mean, yes, I think it's like a, like, because sometimes you do give someone a massage because they have a sore neck and you want to make it clear that this is not a sexual thing.
00:33:16
Jen
It's true.
00:33:17
Red D
I'm just helping you out. i think
00:33:19
El Platypo
Do you typically have to specify that during interactions?
00:33:20
Jen
Yep.
00:33:22
El Platypo
This is not a sexual interaction.
00:33:24
Red D
Well, because I mean, I'm just saying, and I think he,
00:33:26
El Platypo
I mean, do I need to do that when I start shaking hands with my coworkers? Because I really want to.
00:33:31
Red D
shaking hands.
00:33:32
El Platypo
Can you never imagine anything would just make for a better vibe in the office? You got to say hello to someone, you take the hand and you go, this is not a sexual interaction.
00:33:42
Red D
ah you
00:33:42
El Platypo
You figure it's shaking hands.
00:33:42
Red D
No, you say, my mom is that my mom only lets me shake her hand because I'm the best handshaker in the
00:33:48
El Platypo
I mean, Red, i didn't I don't mean to make you feel awkward, but I think that would make it sexual.
00:33:52
Red D
family. Okay, well, you mean watching too much Game of Thrones or something?
00:33:53
Jen
Okay.
00:33:56
Red D
don't know.
00:33:57
El Platypo
why Why does everyone put me in that bracket? you know You're the one who is suggesting every interaction on a physical level is preceded by the comments. This is not a sexual interaction, which I still feel is a great thing to bring.
00:34:07
Red D
That's not what I was saying. I was just the whole early reason I had a whole discussion is because Jamie picked up on this, I guess, sexual tension between them.
00:34:16
El Platypo
and right chi It's chill. This is not a sexual interaction. You don't need to get annoyed about it.
00:34:22
Red D
well, I'm glad we're all clear on that, just in case any. Well, that ah so
00:34:26
El Platypo
For anyone listening, this is in fact a podcast and not an audio.
00:34:26
Red D
but
00:34:29
El Platypo
Sorry, I'm in a really weird mood tonight. I'm going to read back about 10% now.
00:34:32
Red D
well that
00:34:32
Jen
Do you know what?
00:34:33
El Platypo
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:35
Jen
I actually think, I felt in that moment, you know, that it wasn't because Janeway was picking up on something from him, but it was like the first moment where she realized she was really enjoying the massage a bit too much herself.
00:34:44
Red D
Yes. Yes. It was a very mutual thing. ah Yeah, sorry.
00:34:49
Jen
Mm.
00:34:49
Red D
I don't think she wanted to have that conversation because she thought Chakotay was making the moves on her and had to set up a boundary.
00:34:50
El Platypo
and
00:34:55
Red D
i think it's because she was like, if I'm not careful, yes, she wanted the promises because she also felt something.
00:34:57
El Platypo
She needed to find some parameters.
00:35:00
Jen
and
00:35:03
Red D
That's how I interpret it, for sure.
00:35:03
Jen
no Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:05
El Platypo
So what would have happened?
00:35:05
Jen
I wonder what her parameters would have been if Chikote hadn't spoken first.
00:35:10
Red D
No touching.
00:35:10
El Platypo
What would the parameters have been if Tukoti had just been, i like you?
00:35:11
Jen
I don't
00:35:15
El Platypo
How about it?
00:35:18
El Platypo
As opposed to going down someone, I can't define the parameters, but I can make up some BS pseudo-tribal tale to tell you.
00:35:18
Red D
I think...
00:35:18
Jen
and
00:35:26
Red D
But, because, like, I mean, before... Sorry, now we're getting really deep into this.
00:35:28
El Platypo
That takes some doing.
00:35:30
Red D
But she does keep telling her, telling him that she is no longer his captain. So that is not an excuse or boundary she can fall back on and say, like, because we worked together...
00:35:39
El Platypo
I take it all back. JW's been leading him on.
00:35:42
Red D
They're just two free adults, but and she would have but to come up with something.
00:35:43
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:35:46
El Platypo
Free spirits.
00:35:48
Red D
Anyway, Jamie, what would you like to say next?
00:35:50
El Platypo
Dark hearts free. Sorry, anyway. um Right. Wow. I mean, I'd like to bring us back onto the Stration Narrow after all that smut. I would like to bring my next beard, stroke and contrast of Harry the Rebel, a new role for him versus Bellana, just take a breath, Torres, as her response to his suggestion. We need to do something.
00:36:14
El Platypo
need to go out. Does this not sit wrong? She's going, we all need to take a breath. and get on with our jobs and shutting him down, which I very much enjoyed.
00:36:25
El Platypo
And was, again, not a sexual interaction, which I think is something, because you can't say that of all the interactions on this episode. And therefore, it's a positive that it's not.
00:36:36
Red D
Well, Janie, sorry. I feel like you all have something to add, yeah?
00:36:41
El Platypo
you going to challenge my call that that wasn't a sexual interaction?
00:36:42
Jen
He did.
00:36:43
Red D
No, I have something just to move right past that.
00:36:44
El Platypo
Because I'm here for that challenge.
00:36:44
Jen
Yeah.
00:36:47
Red D
But I think, what I mean, you already alluded to this earlier, but the changing characters or of Tom and Harry and the infants on each other.
00:36:54
El Platypo
I know. no He used to be such a good little ensign as well. I see trouble in his future.
00:36:59
Jen
he did yeah
00:37:02
Red D
His reaction here does remind me a bit about his reaction to being... uh, stranded in space, he's always the one that is the most desperate to get home or the most, like, determined to find a solution for that something or to give some crazy theory a chance.
00:37:11
Jen
and
00:37:19
Red D
And his reaction, ah feel like it's it's in keeping with his, I mean, to rebel is not, is like a new thing, but his kind of, um, yeah.
00:37:23
El Platypo
yeah
00:37:27
El Platypo
I think it's not...
00:37:28
Red D
Yeah.
00:37:29
El Platypo
ah we We don't really analyse it well if we think of it in terms of rebellion or nay. It's just he'll always push most strongly for the thing that gets folk home slash keeps the crew together.
00:37:39
Red D
Yes, that's good.
00:37:40
Jen
I think he's very loyal as well.
00:37:40
Red D
Hmm. Yeah.
00:37:42
Jen
Like, you know, when he's he's willing to stand up for something and disobey the rules when it's something that's about loyalty, you know, he wants to save Jamie and Touba, you know, and he wants to get back home to his beloved family and friends.
00:37:42
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:37:48
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:37:58
Jen
And, you know, there are those certain situations where he's all for breaking the rules.
00:38:08
Red D
yeah
00:38:10
El Platypo
That makes sense.
00:38:12
Red D
Anything else to add about that, about Harry at this point in time?
00:38:17
El Platypo
I mean,
00:38:21
El Platypo
I like Rebellious Harry.
00:38:23
Red D
ah
00:38:23
Jen
Yeah, I didn't write too much about Harry this episode actually.
00:38:24
El Platypo
That was it, really.
00:38:30
Red D
Well, that's great because now I'm going to go into my Chakotay point, I think.
00:38:30
El Platypo
by
00:38:31
El Platypo
yeah
00:38:35
El Platypo
before so I would like to point out that Harry decides its HR appropriate behaviour to visit Tuvok at one in the morning when Tuvok is in some pretty sexy jams.
00:38:48
Red D
Oh yes, I did have that coming up later, but I did like that scene between the two of them.
00:38:51
El Platypo
oh
00:38:55
Red D
But yes. Gosh, I watched correctly.
00:38:57
El Platypo
Cracking.
00:38:59
Red D
I watched it just this afternoon. don't know why I can't remember, but it was a good contrast, I guess, of the... ah do i don't want to take it away from you, Jamie. Sorry, it's a contrast. I'll leave it for you.
00:39:07
El Platypo
No, no, no, no, you do it.
00:39:07
Red D
Okay.
00:39:08
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:39:08
El Platypo
You do it. You do it. ah need, I've been being a dick this episode, so you should, you know, nick my shit.
00:39:14
Red D
Well, you know, I guess Harry i goes at 1am to Tuvok's, Tuvok? Oh my God, that's just going to live with me forever. Courtesis to plead with him to, like, well, i' actually not plead, to present a plan that he's come up with the rest of the crew who also feel the same, some of the way.
00:39:30
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:39:30
Red D
And I like the way Tuvok was like, yes, I'll listen to your plan. Like he was, and he accepted his initial apology for like what had happened earlier.
00:39:36
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:39:38
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:39:39
Red D
ah And Harry has this plan because they have these kind of, Whiting have a bit of leverage or things they can barter with the Medians like B'Elanna's DNA because she's half Klingon and Anna Whiting Sorrell- The relationship with Dr.
00:39:45
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:39:47
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:39:52
Jen
Good
00:39:55
Red D
Tell or something.
00:39:56
Jen
and
00:39:57
Red D
Anna Whiting Sorrell- But yeah, i thought it was a great scene because I'm not sure we actually see that much of Tuak and Harry like one on one.
00:39:58
El Platypo
and smellllus metal
00:40:06
Red D
or And the contrast, I guess, of Tuvok. And also, I think it's at this point where he's like, says that, like, well, all those people that you're talking to, they don't have the responsibility of the whole crew, like, to think about.
00:40:17
El Platypo
Just like bang.
00:40:18
Red D
Which, yeah, it's like, that's a good point.
00:40:19
Jen
and point
00:40:22
Red D
That's a good point. But then they do end on a bit of a harsh note, because, yeah, like, Tuvok threatens Harry with the brick, if you...
00:40:33
Red D
If he even thought if he disobeys orders and the even questions orders, which I thought was like, that's quite.
00:40:38
El Platypo
I think that's an entirely proportionate response to an insupportable flouting and insupportant level of insolence from Harry.
00:40:49
Jen
It's the second time, isn't it, in a short space of time. And yeah, I can see why Tuvok like logically was thinking I really need to shut this down, you know, this could lead to some serious consequences as
00:40:54
Red D
That's true.
00:41:00
Red D
Hmm.
00:41:01
El Platypo
sorry Harry is, you know, secondarily completely wrong and really annoying.
00:41:08
Red D
Yes.
00:41:10
El Platypo
I'm just telling you it from Tuvok's perspective.
00:41:15
Red D
But yeah, we will we will come back, I'm sure, to that those two. But I will move on to my next point, which is all the things Chakotay built for Janeway while they were on this planet, starting with the bath, which was, wow, what a nice thing to do for someone.
00:41:27
Jen
Hmm.
00:41:27
El Platypo
Yep.
00:41:32
Red D
um Then he built her a headboard.
00:41:34
El Platypo
Yep.
00:41:35
Red D
but her bet Because he noticed that she liked sitting up in bed or reading a bed.
00:41:38
El Platypo
a
00:41:38
Red D
I don't quite remember.
00:41:40
El Platypo
Yep.
00:41:40
Red D
Then he was going to build her a log cabin. I mean, that is like the quintessential romantic destination.
00:41:45
Jen
yeah
00:41:45
El Platypo
so
00:41:47
Red D
And by the end, they were planning on he was going to build a boat so she could explore the river. i mean, wow. I mean, he is a perfect man. He's the perfect man.
00:41:53
El Platypo
i I mean, this is maybe again when he blows it.
00:41:54
Red D
um
00:41:56
El Platypo
He's trying to build a love shank.
00:41:58
Red D
Yeah, i mean, he is. He's like, it's really very idyllic. and the way he notices her needs, her wants, and then just builds them. There's something to be said for that, I think.
00:42:07
El Platypo
It's a good love language. It's a good love language.
00:42:09
Jen
That's true.
00:42:09
Red D
It is a good love language. Maybe that's why it... Maybe building things.
00:42:13
Jen
Building things. Although i think I'd rather that I knew how to build them. I'd be very proud of myself being able to build a log cabin and a boat.
00:42:25
Red D
and Well, yeah, I think it's just that he was aware of her needs and was happy just to
00:42:29
El Platypo
I
00:42:32
Red D
meet them But the other thing I put in here was I noticed that she didn't bring her peach silk robe with her. And I thought Chakotay would not have been able to handle that.
00:42:44
Jen
No, no, that sort of negligee.
00:42:44
Red D
ah for brother She was swatting around.
00:42:46
El Platypo
i told um can't believe she left that.
00:42:47
Jen
Yeah.
00:42:48
El Platypo
How can anyone leave that?
00:42:48
Red D
She's just in a very grey, grey, like, nondescript robe.
00:42:50
El Platypo
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
00:42:53
Red D
And I thought that is for the best. That is for the best.
00:42:57
El Platypo
If she
00:42:57
Jen
She does wear a sort of dress, day dress though.
00:43:01
Red D
Yes.
00:43:01
Jen
So she's, you know, you get to see her in like civilian, her own chosen civilian clothing.
00:43:01
El Platypo
wanted it. Well,
00:43:07
Jen
Because there's loads of episodes where she's like disguising herself and dressing up as an alien and all these kinds of things.
00:43:09
El Platypo
yes.
00:43:11
Red D
Oh,
00:43:12
Jen
But these are like, her own clothes. Fascinating!
00:43:16
Red D
yeah. That is a good point. But I just thought, I mean, if she had brought the rope, they would definitely be together. That's all I was saying.
00:43:24
El Platypo
if she wanted it well yes
00:43:25
Red D
Yes. Yes. But I think there was a part of her that definitely...
00:43:28
El Platypo
The fact that she didn't suggests she didn't.
00:43:30
Red D
Well, yes maybe she has two sides. Her passionate side and the wanting to keep her professional side.
00:43:36
Jen
Yeah I think that was just a part of her as you say Red that did and part didn't.
00:43:38
El Platypo
Sorry. Sorry.
00:43:42
Jen
It's a contrast, Jamie. You should be beard stroking.
00:43:44
Red D
Yes. Yes, you should be.
00:43:46
El Platypo
It would be if we'd seen the robe. That's all that I'm going to say.
00:43:49
Red D
ah Okay, Jenny, back to you.
00:43:51
El Platypo
And it's like that's probably what Chakotia was thinking.
00:43:52
Red D
oh
00:43:54
Red D
Would be if she'd seen.
00:43:55
Jen
That's enough of that smut from you.
00:43:58
El Platypo
I'm rich!
00:43:59
Jen
It's my turn, my turn.
00:43:59
El Platypo
How outrageous!
00:44:00
Red D
Take us back to the straight and narrow, Jenny.
00:44:01
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:44:03
El Platypo
hi
00:44:03
Jen
um Okay, okay.
00:44:05
El Platypo
ah
00:44:05
Red D
I stole your line, sorry.
00:44:05
Jen
So, okay, now I know that you guys You guys are fans of Kes. But for me, you know, not so much. um And I thought the conversation between her and Tuvok was really interesting.
00:44:18
Jen
Because on the one hand, i was a little bit confused about what appeared to be her manipulating Tuvok. Because she started out with just, seat which seemed completely random to me, basically telling him that she was like a dad to her.
00:44:23
El Platypo
yeah
00:44:30
El Platypo
Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:31
Jen
And I thought, okay, where is this leading? Oh, it's the only reason she could possibly come out with that is to then She basically is trying to persuade him to change his mind about going to the Bedians, which she succeeds at.
00:44:42
Jen
And then what also is really interesting is that ah she seems to do it with an emotional argument, which you wouldn't think would work.
00:44:48
Red D
Yes. Yes.
00:44:51
Jen
So I was thinking, oh, is that a bit like out of character? um But then I was thinking about, and then this followed onto when he changed his mind and he gave the speech to the crew about why he was changing his mind.
00:45:01
Jen
And he talks about at first, obviously, you can't be held hostage to the cruise emotions.
00:45:03
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:45:05
Jen
It's a really good point, but very, you know, Vulcan. um But then he talks about having sensibilities. um And it genuinely made me look up what sensibility means because I think I know, but then I think there was, I detected, I thought it detected some kind of nuance there.
00:45:17
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:45:23
Jen
And basically it was quite interesting ah for for my for me anyway, I like linguistics and things.
00:45:27
Red D
Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:28
Jen
um
00:45:30
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:45:30
Jen
He was talking about obviously We all sort know what emotional means, emotional, sensitive, but sensibility, having sensibility is the quality of being able to appreciate and respond to complex emotional influences.
00:45:42
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:45:43
Jen
So that is interesting because that you probably could describe Tuvok as.
00:45:48
Red D
yeah
00:45:48
Jen
So he's appreciating and responding to those emotional needs, but not necessarily having them himself by choosing to go along with what the crew want to contact the Badeans.
00:45:48
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:45:53
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:45:59
Jen
um And I just found that that whole, his speech and the sort of, you know, persuasion of Kes really interesting. But I gotta say, yeah, to me, i just think, well, Kes, this is very manipulative of you.
00:46:12
Jen
I mean, i know this is, you know, best interests of the crew at heart, but Dero did.
00:46:12
Red D
ah
00:46:13
El Platypo
yeah
00:46:17
El Platypo
I don't get why he yields to her line of argument.
00:46:21
Jen
Well, that was my, yeah, initial thought. Hmm.
00:46:24
El Platypo
Because she says nothing that anyone else hasn't said.
00:46:27
Red D
She does say, she does raise the point that he's very focused on their physical safety, not but not their mental, psychological um safety, which I think cuts through bit.
00:46:37
Jen
Mm.
00:46:39
El Platypo
they'd have got over it.
00:46:42
Red D
I do think it was very interesting that if you contrast Harry, that Harry's approach is the more data-driven, approach.
00:46:48
El Platypo
Amen.
00:46:49
Red D
Her approach the more storytelling approach, I guess if you put it in today's vernacular.
00:46:52
El Platypo
Amen. Amen.
00:46:53
Red D
And she succeeds. So now whenever I meet with a senior stakeholder, want to be like, I want to tell you a story about my dad. And then take it around there and see what happens.
00:47:02
El Platypo
was he a tribal warrior who struggled to find peace was always angry and sought peace in the midst of battle in a way that made him a hero to his tribe but only ever found peace when he was captured by a strong and beautiful warrior who called him to serve his tribe
00:47:20
Red D
I just heard tribe a few times.
00:47:20
El Platypo
and
00:47:21
Red D
Sorry, because i was thinking about what i was going to say next.
00:47:23
Jen
yeah
00:47:26
El Platypo
I was just quoting Chakotay's final shot story.
00:47:29
Red D
That's what I thought.
00:47:30
El Platypo
Daddy?
00:47:30
Red D
That's what I thought.
00:47:30
Jen
But I mean, you raise a point here, Red.
00:47:31
El Platypo
Daddy?
00:47:34
Jen
um This is the thing which I think I was trying to get at. She doesn't actually give any kind of story about her dad. I thought she was leading up to some kind of story that would explain to two of her why he needs to change his mind. But no, she's just mentioning, casually mentioning that, you know, she's always sort of seen him as a father figure.
00:47:47
El Platypo
ah do
00:47:50
Jen
It's just very...
00:47:50
Red D
Well, I mean, that is a high praise, so that is buttering him up a bit.
00:47:53
El Platypo
do do we need yeah do we need to um Do we need to try a different tack of Kez is a gold digger and Tuvok is the sugar daddy?
00:47:55
Jen
Yeah.
00:48:04
Jen
hello
00:48:05
Red D
I think that's your fan fiction series that you can write in your spare time, your free time.
00:48:08
Jen
yes
00:48:08
El Platypo
Sorry.
00:48:09
Jen
yeah
00:48:09
El Platypo
Oh, dearie, dear.
00:48:11
Jen
He's married with kids Jamie, how could you?
00:48:13
El Platypo
Do we mean the actor or the character?
00:48:14
Jen
And she's like two years old.
00:48:14
Red D
This is not something we, yeah.
00:48:16
Jen
Isn't he 150 something and she's two.
00:48:18
Red D
so
00:48:18
El Platypo
Well, I mean, she's one year year old, but yeah, it didn't stop Neelix. And he's Chief Morale Officer, so it must be okay.
00:48:25
Red D
It's also not as old as Tumag. And anyway.
00:48:28
Jen
but Morale, not morality.
00:48:30
El Platypo
it Oh, is it different? I never realised.
00:48:33
Red D
Very good. and Yeah, that was, I mean, I'm trying to think of why the motion did work on
00:48:43
Red D
and Tumag. If I could come up with like a rational explanation, I'm not coming up with anything on the spot.
00:48:46
El Platypo
Oh.
00:48:48
Red D
But she does move him from like the ah captain role into the more like father figure role, which is maybe... He can see himself in a different way, like oh, maybe I should care a bit more about these people's feelings.
00:49:00
Red D
Yeah.
00:49:00
Jen
Yeah, maybe, you know, there's the element of him needing to, as a father, care not just about the physical safety of his children, but presumably he has to care about their emotional well-being.
00:49:11
Red D
yeah
00:49:13
Jen
But I really don't know, because they're Vulcan children, so do they have emotions? I don't know, it's all great.
00:49:19
Red D
um
00:49:19
El Platypo
Bad people too.
00:49:22
Red D
Say that again, sorry.
00:49:23
El Platypo
and said there were people to i know that that wasn't precisely what you meant by do they have emotions but it felt like an opposite time to remember and bring all this back to a restrained civilized place of discussion
00:49:36
Red D
Yes. ah And so Jamie, can you continue on that vein?
00:49:42
El Platypo
no i i i can't go more civilized than that gosh my I mean, my next my next point was just going to be, how do we get from, like, a monkey pointing out a lightning storm to their presumably vaguely robust Starfleet equipment having all smashed up around them and them snuggling under a table?
00:49:46
Red D
Just continue, not more.
00:50:02
Red D
Oh, that was great.
00:50:03
El Platypo
My answer, my comment was, why are they snuggling?
00:50:03
Red D
Great.
00:50:06
El Platypo
There is no need to snuggle or hide under a table.
00:50:10
Red D
Jamie, have you never been... Okay, Ava, one piece of advice I know about an earthquake, which I know there was that wasn't strictly an earthquake, but it was a plasma storm.
00:50:13
El Platypo
i have never snuggled under a table in a thunderstorm.
00:50:19
Red D
And at some points, it looked a bit like an earthquake when she got like fell to the ground. So you yes, you go under a table or a doorframe or something there's an earthquake happening.
00:50:22
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:50:26
El Platypo
Yeah, that explains why they're under a table red. It doesn't explain why they have violated HR and rank protocol and started snuggling.
00:50:35
Red D
Well, first of all, they can do whatever they want on that planet because they're no longer part of Starfleet, but B.
00:50:40
El Platypo
They're always part of story red. They just aren't in a chain of command.
00:50:44
Red D
Yes, that's true. But B, he was very protective of her.
00:50:45
El Platypo
Those colours don't run.
00:50:49
El Platypo
Yeah, well, why is...
00:50:49
Red D
I really had my...
00:50:50
El Platypo
what i think I just find that so heteronormative. Why is he protective of hermage?
00:50:54
Red D
They are heterosexual, so i don't see what the problem is there.
00:50:57
El Platypo
Heteronormative, heteronormative, not heterosexual.
00:51:00
Red D
No, but the two of them are heterosexual.
00:51:00
Jen
He's just winding you up. He's just winding you up, Red.
00:51:02
El Platypo
Why is she cuddling him?
00:51:04
Red D
Oh, I felt like I'm winding.
00:51:04
El Platypo
you need emotional support?
00:51:07
Red D
Did you see how big his muscles were?
00:51:07
El Platypo
one is Why is he Big Spoon?
00:51:08
Red D
I think the more toned person should be on the outside.
00:51:10
Jen
just Just mute him, Red.
00:51:10
El Platypo
Why is he Big Spoon and she's
00:51:13
Jen
Mute.
00:51:14
Red D
No, I want to say I honestly did put on like my 90s rom-com brain for this episode.
00:51:17
El Platypo
a big spoon? Big Spoon. Sorry.
00:51:20
Red D
And I loved it because I was like, oh gosh, he's so strong. He's protecting her.
00:51:23
Jen
Yeah, I think that's the thing.
00:51:25
Red D
Loved it.
00:51:25
Jen
I could totally see that viewpoint. um And I do love a bit of rom-com.
00:51:27
El Platypo
Oh, God.
00:51:28
Jen
I mean, four weddings and a funeral is a classic. um However, i i just, so hard to see Janeway who's like, you know, the epitome of female leadership and assertiveness and, you know, female being dominant for once, you know, being, as Janeway put it, snuggled onto the table.
00:51:38
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:51:46
Red D
I mean, I don't think it snuggling. Just because she's dominant all the time doesn't mean like someone can't help her, protect make stuff for her.
00:51:51
El Platypo
Dominant people can be Little Spoon.
00:51:52
Jen
It's true. Yeah. She's still a person.
00:51:54
El Platypo
Dominant people can Little Spoon.
00:51:55
Jen
She's still a woman.
00:51:59
Red D
so I love the snuggling under the table, but I didn't really think of it as snuggling. I have to be honest, it seemed just more like it's just like huddling.
00:52:03
El Platypo
Oh, what did we think of it as?
00:52:07
Red D
Well, huddling. Huddling together for like protection.
00:52:12
El Platypo
I am not huddling with you anytime soon.
00:52:14
Jen
you
00:52:17
Red D
and
00:52:17
El Platypo
I would not be honestly able to say if that's how you huddle that this is not a sexual interaction. I also think it's not something that Tuvok couldn't have honestly said in that situation.
00:52:27
Red D
ah
00:52:28
El Platypo
Or indeed Chakotay.
00:52:29
Red D
Yes. Well, okay. Well, we obviously very much disagree about that, so I will move on to my next point. But I had like in a little flashback. So...
00:52:41
Red D
I guess this going back a little bit, but when we have a scene ah on a bridge and Harry is kind of... has that kind of like explosive outburst with Tuvok and it's like, why aren't we doing anything and why don't we go it back?
00:52:53
Red D
I can't actually remember the words, even though I watched it like two hours ago. Anyway, but...
00:52:57
El Platypo
Why are you all being so quiet?
00:52:59
Red D
Yes, and it was exactly like the scene with Tuvok on the bridge that we just saw two weeks ago because everyone was kind of like, dude, why are you making such a big deal? We have to follow the orders. I don't...
00:53:09
Red D
It was like very...
00:53:10
El Platypo
ah
00:53:11
Red D
um
00:53:11
El Platypo
He's gonna die! Of course he's gonna make a big deal over here.
00:53:13
Red D
um It just reminded me of that episode and everyone on the bridge had a similar reaction to both people.
00:53:15
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:53:19
Red D
Although behind the scenes, people were more supportive.
00:53:19
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:53:21
Red D
Or maybe even behind scenes, both.
00:53:21
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:53:23
Red D
But yeah, I had a little, it just kind of was like, oh, it's quite similar.
00:53:25
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:53:27
Jen
And Tom gives him this sort of look, this sort of shake of the head.
00:53:31
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:53:32
Red D
Yeah.
00:53:32
Jen
So if you notice that like, no Harry, not not now, i not like this kind of, that's what it seemed to say.
00:53:33
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:53:36
Red D
Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:39
Jen
Stand down. Mm.
00:53:40
Red D
and not Stand up, stand up. So I just thought that was... I just gave it a little flashback for me.
00:53:48
Jen
and
00:53:49
Red D
And yeah, um and then we already discussed, I guess, the following on scene in Tuvok's quarters. So that's all all I had to say about that.
00:53:54
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:53:57
Red D
I guess, in a way, it may be because we really kind of dived or dug into, you know, why, how could everyone just not react to this poor guy who's about to be
00:54:06
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:54:08
Red D
executed for it. So Harry's not in the quite the same position, but the reaction was quite similar. It seemed perhaps cold, um or it could be interpreted a bit.
00:54:13
Jen
yeah interesting
00:54:19
Red D
But yeah.
00:54:21
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:54:22
Red D
ah Okay.
00:54:22
El Platypo
Yep.
00:54:23
Red D
We again, what's wrong? Oh, sorry, Jamie, do you want to say something?
00:54:29
Red D
Jenny, back to you.
00:54:31
Jen
well i um i'm actually the my last one but i did actually think of a new one during this discussion it was something i thought right at the start because jamie brought something up um and
00:54:36
Red D
Great. Great. right
00:54:43
Jen
I just really enjoyed seeing a very brief scene where Shmullis and Dr.
00:54:48
El Platypo
yeah
00:54:48
Jen
Pell interacted again. And it felt very bittersweet. And i just I just kind of loved that scene. I don't know why. they were just They were both so focused on, you know, only have a few seconds here.
00:55:00
El Platypo
um
00:55:01
Jen
We've got to, you know, life or death situation. We've got to transfer the serum. And, you know, there's no time for catching up or anything like that. And, you know, um the only sort of real romantic interest, the doctor something.
00:55:12
Jen
experienced and he just has this sort of 30 seconds and they can't even say how are you? have you been? you know I just thought that was really like aww kind of
00:55:18
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:55:23
Red D
I agree and ah I love the moment and I also just loved to have her back as a character and an actress I don't know it's like because there's so much like something happens move on something happens move on something happens move so just from like oh it's nice like hark back to that relationship like just have a bit of continuity or something there I really liked it yeah um Jamie anything to add there
00:55:45
Jen
Yeah. Revisit it. Yeah. I agree.
00:55:52
El Platypo
i mean all I mean, I loved again the contrast of Dr. Powell and the Bidean treachery, but I'm also wondering who from HR signed off on luring the shields just because someone from an enemy starship texts you.
00:56:14
El Platypo
I think that doesn't bear particularly hard examination. um But sort of skipping ahead also to my last point, um by the end of this episode, I was slightly hysterical and I went with, he actually tries to bullshit her when he finally fires his shot, which I think we all know is the pseudo story about the warrior that he makes up on the spot to try and explain his feelings for her.
00:56:38
Jen
you
00:56:39
El Platypo
and then followed that with capitalised Bahahahaha with exclamation marks.
00:56:45
Red D
So what do you think the point of...
00:56:46
El Platypo
What do you want to engage with? have
00:56:48
Red D
yeah well, what do you think there was the point of that story that he told her? but
00:56:55
El Platypo
An inability to express his feelings directly and a use of, in brackets, false metaphor to do the job for him.
00:57:04
Red D
Interesting.
00:57:05
Jen
I think it's easier to talk with a certain detachment about your feelings sometimes.
00:57:10
El Platypo
Yeah, I'm probably...
00:57:10
Red D
Yeah.
00:57:11
Jen
I mean, isn't that what therapists tell you do when you're, you know, you've got phobia or something, you're supposed to like view your emotions from afar.
00:57:21
Red D
I actually saw this video on Instagram or something, and which I did think was quite genius.
00:57:25
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:57:26
Red D
this I've never seen this woman again or before, so I can't give more details. But ah she seems to give life advice while filming herself, ah pushing herself on a scooter.
00:57:37
Red D
I can't. that's So it's very fast-paced. But she did say something about she's named her brain or her mind. um And it's for this detachment thing. Because if your brain starts, or you start thinking like, oh, that's never going to work, never going to work, you'd be like...
00:57:52
Red D
Okay, thank you, Sarah. I will come back that later. She's like named her mind, or her conscious thought, given it a name.
00:57:56
Jen
man
00:57:57
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:58:00
Red D
And that I think does the same thing, like ah gives a bit of detachment.
00:58:04
Jen
Yeah, and some it's in, there's this book, it's funny, I literally was just talking about this at the game of Petoncred with a colleague about and this book, The Chimp Paradox.
00:58:11
Red D
Oh,
00:58:15
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:58:15
Red D
ah, no.
00:58:16
Jen
Did read that? It was basically that kind of thing. And it's talking about how, you know, imagine all humans have a chimp inside them. And it's the side of your humanity that is basically like a little toddler, you know, and and it's impulsive and it wants this and that and it wants to eat loads of sugary food and do all these bad things.
00:58:31
El Platypo
Who
00:58:34
Jen
And, um you know, that will never go away. And also, if you try and completely repress it all the time, bad things will happen. So um it's it talks about how you um you learn to live with the chimp.
00:58:46
Jen
You speak to the chimp, you know, and you say to the chimp that you were saying, Red, chimp, not right now.
00:58:48
Red D
oh
00:58:51
Jen
now we have to work and eat some salad and then later on you get an ice cream you know
00:58:57
Red D
Yes, the same. I'm gonna try that.
00:59:00
El Platypo
the
00:59:00
Red D
I'm gonna try that. well One of those tactics for sure. and Sorry, Jamie, did we already get your... Yeah, yeah no, we're sorry, we're talking about your final point.
00:59:09
El Platypo
you You got me. like i get I fired my shot.
00:59:11
Red D
No.
00:59:13
El Platypo
Again, not unlike Shikoto.
00:59:16
Jen
it sounds so like that phrase is horrible it sounds weirdly sexual and
00:59:16
Red D
well
00:59:21
El Platypo
Sorry.
00:59:21
Red D
that's it i mean it's pervertly sexual i think is what you mean yes was he trying to get her to fall for him or was he just saying i don't expect anything back even if i have these feelings
00:59:22
Jen
disgusting
00:59:23
El Platypo
note meaning I just mean he gave it his best shot to you know try and get her to form for him.
00:59:40
El Platypo
um so We keep posing the provocative, thought-inspiring questions, Red.
00:59:44
Jen
and i think that
00:59:49
Jen
his uh what's the word like conscious self was you know just trying to stay back step back and be happy with whatever the situation but you know deep down he wants her and that comes through
01:00:00
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:00:02
Red D
Oh, yes. Yes, yes. um And so i I think, Jenny, I think you're going wrap us up with your ah question, but I'll just quickly put in my final point, which was some of the acting towards the end, because through this deal the Vidians and Dr. Pell or Tell, they managed to get the cure for this insect. Oh, this is something that came up, so this is not really related, but I'm going to put it in here.
01:00:32
Red D
you know jane we had those insect traps she was trying to catch the insects that had bitten them and they were all hanging in trees or the ones that she went to but then when doctor when they were asking the vadean doctor doctor mean what's her name dr pell she was like yes it's a burrowing insect so would they have ever found the insect anyway very minor points was like oh they were on the wrong track anyway but if that was the point of that comment i'm not sure but
01:00:53
El Platypo
Thought provoking, yeah.
01:00:58
Jen
Yeah.
01:01:01
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:01:03
Red D
ah But then obviously Star Voyager makes contact with Janeway and Chakotay and they find out they're going to be reunited with the crew, go back on their journey. And just the scene that's shot from like behind the little tomato plants that Janeway had planted and had started to grow.
01:01:21
Red D
Her face, she looks distraught, I think.
01:01:24
El Platypo
yeah i agree with that she looked mean they both she looks distraught then and they both look distraught when they're back on the bridge
01:01:32
Red D
Yeah.
01:01:33
El Platypo
um
01:01:33
Red D
And I think I mean,
01:01:35
El Platypo
issue <unk> Is she teasing Tuvok when she says, if I didn't know better, i'd know I'd think that was a decision made with emotion to disregard my last orders. Is she teasing or is she serious?
01:01:46
Red D
well, that's, yeah, that's back.
01:01:47
El Platypo
Yeah. Yeah.
01:01:48
Red D
I think she's teasing, but in a, but yes, I just, her face, she kind of looked a bit bereft that she was going have to now leave this life that she was starting to create, even though obviously she's very happy to go back to Voyager. But then The other face, the other Alex thing noticed, is when she walks back onto the bridge, Harry's face.
01:02:05
Red D
He looks so happy and pleased that she's back. So there was a nice contrast. Jamie, you were right. There's all this contrast in this episode that didn't even realize.
01:02:14
El Platypo
Not just a pretty face, as much as it's a beard-stroking one.
01:02:18
Red D
and Not just a pretty face. But yeah, I actually burst, I don't know if burst into tears, but I teared up when I saw her face from behind those tomato leaves.
01:02:27
El Platypo
Oh, I feel really bad now. I've been taking the piss this whole episode and you were emotionally engaged.
01:02:29
Red D
What? What?
01:02:33
Red D
No, that's okay. That's the point of this podcast.
01:02:36
Jen
But that's the joy of Star Trek, you know, you laugh, you cry.
01:02:37
Red D
Yes. you don Yeah, you can have all the emotions in one episode.
01:02:42
Jen
Yeah, I got a bit like, you know, teary eyed at the whole leaving speech and, you know, two books thanking her for her, whatever it was he thanked her for.
01:02:47
Red D
ah yeah.
01:02:47
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:02:48
Red D
Yeah.
01:02:52
Jen
Leadership.
01:02:53
Red D
Let's do it.
01:02:54
Jen
I don't know.
01:02:54
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:02:55
Jen
That was a good one.
01:02:56
Red D
So, Jamie, I think we, most of us are out of our last points, but you do have, like, I guess, some more slash a question that we've just kind of touched on through the episode.
01:03:03
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:03:05
Jen
wonder which one you're referring to. I have in my mind one more which I haven't covered but I don't know if it it's not questioned so it might not be the one.
01:03:11
Red D
Well, we haven't really, really answered do we think they did or didn't. We know that you think they might have.
01:03:18
Jen
Well I think they left it ambiguous on purpose so that we can decide for ourselves.
01:03:19
Red D
Jamie?
01:03:23
Red D
ah Jamie, what do you think?
01:03:26
El Platypo
Undecided. I'm not sure i understand the question particularly well.
01:03:32
Red D
Did they take that snuggling from under the table back to the bed?
01:03:32
Jen
Well
01:03:35
Red D
I don't know.
01:03:36
Jen
Yeah it's the moment you know when they touch hands and then it cuts out and then it goes to the next morning.
01:03:36
Red D
Oh yeah.
01:03:42
El Platypo
Are we really being as crass? And I know there's a hypocrisy in me being the the one asking if we're being crass, given exactly how crass how often I've been in this podcast. Are we really asking what I think we're asking?
01:03:55
Red D
Janie's question number eight. So did they, what did they, exclamation mark, question mark.
01:03:59
Jen
What? Yeah what? How other way could you interpret that?
01:04:02
Red D
yeah
01:04:02
Jen
i
01:04:04
El Platypo
um I mean, did they or didn't they find cure?
01:04:07
Red D
I don't- Oh, the cure.
01:04:08
El Platypo
That's what I thought you meant. Gosh. He gossips.
01:04:11
Red D
Boring.
01:04:12
El Platypo
Um...
01:04:13
Jen
I mean, we don't need like <unk>s like the the specifics details.
01:04:17
Red D
Yeah, sorry, you don't have to tell us what you think happened.
01:04:17
Jen
like i just mean, you know did they did they take it to ah the next level? be Whatever level you you see that as, just.
01:04:24
El Platypo
I mean, what what do we mean by the like next level here?
01:04:24
Red D
I, for the record, i don't think- Never mind, for the record,
01:04:28
El Platypo
Surely we don't need a sexual interaction.
01:04:31
Red D
but that They are two grown people. um
Star Trek Relationships and Ambiguity
01:04:35
El Platypo
Look...
01:04:35
Red D
For the record, I don't think they did. But that's also because, you know, when I watched Star Trek as a child and refused to believe that anyone on Star Trek was having any kind of...
01:04:43
El Platypo
I have a way of determining this. Had they taken it to the next level, wouldn't this podcast have more people podcasting on it?
01:04:56
El Platypo
Dare I put it, wouldn't there be more little salamanders?
01:05:00
Jen
Well, you've got to presume they've got some kind of birth control in the whatever, whatever century they're in.
01:05:05
El Platypo
Right, well that's an avenue of discussion shutdown.
01:05:08
Red D
Okay.
01:05:09
El Platypo
Um... I mean, presumptuous much?
01:05:12
Jen
I wonder if that was in the, in the packing when they sent them to the plan.
01:05:14
El Platypo
No, I don't i don't think they did. I don't think they did. Because I don't think that...
01:05:18
Red D
Okay.
01:05:20
El Platypo
I mean, I'm assuming that Jane and we wouldn't be able to just do that and then leave it there. So I don't think they did.
01:05:26
Red D
Hmm. Interesting. Okay. So two people feel no, Jenny, you think it's a bit more re ambiguous, but interesting.
01:05:33
Jen
Yeah, but I think they did it on purpose in a way, because like you say, Red, it was, you know, a lot of kids watching this, and I think if if you're a kid, you wouldn't even remotely, it wouldn't even enter your brain as a possibility.
01:05:38
El Platypo
did it on purpose.
01:05:42
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
01:05:43
Red D
Yes.
01:05:45
Jen
um But as an adult, a lot of that is the formula for the characters have had sex, FYI. You know, that a scene ends with them like looking longingly into each other's eyes and whatnot, and then it cuts to the next morning.
01:05:53
Red D
That's true. That's true. that's true
01:06:00
Jen
um But... I do think they left it deliberately and vigorously.
01:06:02
Red D
that's true
01:06:04
Jen
And well, but I tell you, my final point was just, I just love the final final moments of the episode when they go straight back to super professional.
01:06:05
El Platypo
but
01:06:15
Jen
And, you know, ah i just have a lot of respect for it.
01:06:17
El Platypo
and and
01:06:19
Jen
I mean, imagine like if you started to develop, even if nothing happened, they started to start to develop some kind of emotional relationship, let's face it.
01:06:25
Red D
Yeah.
01:06:26
Jen
So it's going to be a little bit like a breakup, a little bit like you're working with someone you've just sort of broken up with. So, you know, well done then.
01:06:36
Red D
Yeah, excellent part.
01:06:36
Jen
Very grown up.
01:06:39
Red D
And they were very professional, but I also feel like they were very comfortable being back in those roles. Orchakote seems to handle being back better than, as you say, it is essentially a bit of a but little bit of a end of a dream for him, I think.
01:06:46
Jen
Hmm.
01:06:54
Red D
Yeah.
01:06:56
El Platypo
Long live the dream.
01:06:56
Red D
So he was very professional. Anything to add there, Jamie?
01:07:02
El Platypo
I think we have covered it. i
01:07:05
Red D
Ah, brilliant.
01:07:07
El Platypo
i am comfortable with our analysis of how it ends out. And I'm happy that they were able to take their relationship to a professional place that they felt comfortable with.
01:07:19
Red D
Excellent. So moving on to themes. I think sticking to
Leadership Dynamics and Character Standouts
01:07:23
Red D
the same order. Jamie, do you want to kick us off?
01:07:25
Jen
and I totally forgot to have a think about that beforehand. So...
01:07:30
Red D
Well, it does sound like Jamie i was ready say something.
01:07:31
El Platypo
Red hot sexual tension. I'm very interested it.
01:07:36
Red D
ah As Josie Groosey said in, what's that movie? Never Been Kissed. That's not a theme. Anyway, that's a very random reference.
01:07:47
El Platypo
Are you kidding me?
01:07:47
Jen
my goodness.
01:07:48
El Platypo
i saw that massage. There was sexual tension there.
01:07:51
Red D
That's not a theme.
01:07:51
El Platypo
Someone said after that that they wanted to define parameters. And if that's not sexual tension, I don't know what is.
01:07:58
Red D
That is something that happened. That is not a theme.
01:08:00
El Platypo
can't be too good parameter. Fine, then my theme is going to be parameters, interpersonal ones, of a certain nature.
01:08:05
Red D
Okay.
01:08:07
Jen
I think there's a theme there's a theme around like being a good leader and that balance between um you know being in charge and not being led by the people you're leading but also listening to them enough that you take their feelings and opinions into account as well
01:08:11
Red D
Hmm.
01:08:28
Jen
but sure how to say that theme in shorter words less words
01:08:32
Red D
You don't need to be more concise because that is a theme. It's not just something that happened
01:08:40
El Platypo
Right.
01:08:44
Red D
Jamie. I did really like what what you've already said, Jamie, which was Chakotay's like, you didn't want to sacrifice the present for a future that might not happen, but we've already discussed that. So another theme, I don't know if this is a theme, so you can use my words back at me, Jamie, but the adaptability. I mean, I felt like they must've gone through this, like, okay, we stuck going back to earth. It's goingnna probably going to take 70 years unless we can somehow speed it up.
01:09:08
Red D
Okay. Now we're going to be the only two people on this planet living in the rest of our lives that we have to adapt to.
01:09:12
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:09:14
Red D
Oh no, now we're going back to the point. I mean, like, that's like, a yes, I just, I felt them because I mean, in terms of like, it reminded me of, but I know they didn't really break up.
01:09:20
Jen
Yeah.
01:09:26
Red D
It's not really, but you know, If ah in people's romantic lives, you have a very serious partner.
01:09:28
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:09:31
Red D
This is someone you know that you're going to marry and have children with, and then you break up. Your whole life trajectory changes. And the mind bendingness that must take to adjust from one trajectory to another is hard.
01:09:45
Jen
yeah
01:09:46
El Platypo
yeah
01:09:47
Red D
And they had to do it quite and lot in this episode.
01:09:50
Jen
Yeah, they also I think it's mirrored.
01:09:51
El Platypo
no It does does make me regret my slight giggling and smut about it all. You are correct there, Red. It's difficult and they do have to manage their hopes and veer between expectations and coping strategies.
01:10:04
Red D
Yeah. Jenny, I think you were going to say something?
01:10:08
Jen
Oh, no, I was just gonna say, i yeah, it's a really good. It's really good point. agree. And that, you know, it's sort of mirrored a little bit in we don't think so much about Tuvok. I mean, he was basically captain for really long time.
01:10:18
El Platypo
and
01:10:20
Red D
Yes.
01:10:21
Jen
i mean, there was a six-week period, wasn't there?
01:10:22
Red D
Good point.
01:10:23
El Platypo
i
01:10:24
Jen
And then it went on for longer. so And then he just immediately, quite happily, goes back to his ob security office officer role.
01:10:33
El Platypo
Day job. Well, quite right, because if he can be emotionally influenced by amateur players, then he's no business in high command.
01:10:35
Red D
Yeah, that's a really good point.
01:10:43
Red D
Star players. Who's ready at star players?
01:10:45
El Platypo
mean There was another theme there that I thought we wanted to cover off.
01:10:49
Red D
Oh, yeah.
01:10:50
El Platypo
I mean, I think it's there in black and grey.
01:10:53
Red D
Oh, I'm sorry. Did you add something in the notes? I stopped looking at the notes now. Okay. I mean, in very big letters, interpersonal sexual parameters underlined font size 50.
01:11:05
Red D
It's getting bigger and bigger. What am I looking at? Oh, I wish.
01:11:09
El Platypo
I mean, it's lot of sexual interaction, that's all. Yeah, so star players.
01:11:12
Red D
If
01:11:15
Red D
if I was any good at like clipping sound from other videos and movies, I would clip the scene from Never Been Kissed where Josie sits, suggests a theme for the prom, and someone's like, that's not a theme.
01:11:27
Red D
But I guess I'm the only person that's seen this movie like 50 times.
01:11:27
Jen
No, I
01:11:30
Jen
mean, well, yeah, I haven't seen it 50 times, but I do remember that specific, yeah, I have seen that movie.
01:11:34
Red D
Okay, okay.
01:11:36
Jen
That's what I've seen.
01:11:36
Red D
Oh, great. Exactly.
01:11:39
El Platypo
Yeah,
01:11:40
Red D
Who's ready with their star player?
01:11:43
Jen
Oh, there's quite a few options, I think, this one, isn't there?
01:11:46
Red D
There are.
01:11:50
El Platypo
yeah I know my stop there.
01:11:51
Red D
Would it help if I go? Because I think I've kind of decided.
01:11:53
Jen
Yeah, you hear it.
01:11:53
El Platypo
I know my stop there.
01:11:55
Red D
Oh, Jamie, kick us off.
01:11:57
El Platypo
B'Elanna is the only one able to command dispassionately.
01:12:01
Red D
Okay. Very nice shout out for Belaya. I guess you're referencing her.
01:12:08
El Platypo
absolutely appropriate management of minions under performance under losing Janeway level stress.
01:12:17
Red D
Very and good. Jenny.
01:12:19
Jen
ah Yeah, I've got mine. I'm gonna go Tuvok.
01:12:21
Red D
Great. Oh.
01:12:24
Jen
Yeah, because I really did enjoy him in this episode. I think he did a great job for various reasons and I really didn't... I know Janeway was the one who gave the goodbye speech and it was a very good speech but I just thought his response was very well delivered.
01:12:37
Jen
um And like his scene with Kes and then and then again the speech he gives to the crew where he describes his original thoughts on
01:12:41
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:12:47
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:12:47
Jen
the decision and how that has changed and why. um You know, he sort of because the way he describes it also is that he's basically ensuring they understand that he's not in future or at any time believes that it's a good idea to be, as he says, held hostage to the emotions of your crew.
01:12:56
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:13:04
Jen
But in this particular set of circumstances, X, Y, Z, I just think that the whole through he was very clear, know, and he was very clear in his delivery, but also it was weirdly emotional, some of it as well.
01:13:14
Jen
So just think he got a great balance there.
01:13:18
El Platypo
Yeah.
01:13:19
Red D
Great. ah Well, he was also one of my choices. I'm glad he he's not being selected. So I will go for...
01:13:26
Jen
The monkey!
01:13:26
Red D
I'm going to go for Chakotay for his Riker impersonation, which was very good.
01:13:29
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:13:33
El Platypo
Yep. Yep. He does that well.
01:13:36
Red D
But also, i think, I mean, I know it's hard to watch that like sometimes these episodes a bit through the 2025 lens, but you I think um I just couldn't believe he kept noticing all Janeway's little needs and then just delivered them.
01:13:41
El Platypo
ah
01:13:49
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
01:13:49
Red D
So, with no expectations in return, I think.
01:13:52
El Platypo
this
01:13:53
Red D
So, it was very sweet, I think.
01:13:54
Jen
It is rather sweet when you put it like that.
01:13:58
Jen
And he did have that great line about sacrificing the present.
01:13:59
Red D
ah
01:14:02
Red D
Yeah, good lines. sir So, it's a code tag. And i I don't think I've yeah I'm not sure I've ever been nominated him for star player and I really like his character so I don't know why. ah But yeah, so great.
01:14:13
Red D
Jenny, do you know what next week's episode, not next week, but the next episode that we watch is called because you did look it up earlier.
Preview of "Basics Part One" and Wrap Up
01:14:19
Red D
Sorry to put you on the spot.
01:14:19
Jen
Adieu! I remembered it!
01:14:22
Red D
Brilliant. What are we watching?
01:14:22
Jen
but
01:14:25
Jen
Basics part one.
01:14:26
Red D
oh
01:14:26
El Platypo
i
01:14:27
Jen
It's a cliffhanger.
01:14:29
Red D
It's a cliffhanger. Very good. I will be recording from South Africa. Yes, definitely.
01:14:34
Jen
Ooh, fun.
01:14:34
Red D
yes definitely
01:14:36
Jen
Yep.
01:14:36
El Platypo
yeah
01:14:36
Red D
uh so i'll be in touch but for now let's i'll play out the jingle oh very oh very good but uh yeah she comes back a lot here
01:14:42
El Platypo
Can we just be clear i again that this jingle is not a sexual interaction?
01:14:43
Jen
As we play...
01:14:47
Jen
something Also, as we play the jingle, not only do the Kazon come back, but there's also a returning character in the next one. Someone who I think Red quite likes.
01:15:00
El Platypo
escar
01:15:01
Jen
you ruined it!
01:15:06
Red D
Is this like you, Jenny? I've like watched so many times. I'm like, where are we in there? But will she also have a baby?
01:15:11
El Platypo
Like a turd that can't be smashed.
01:15:14
Red D
is that like, anyway, on that I'm going to hit stop.
01:15:17
El Platypo
Yeah, Portakote.