Transcript
Jamie: Righto.
Red D: And I'll even hit the wrong jingle. Oh, God.
Jamie: I want hear the...
Red D: Oh, no, I'm playing both jingles, I think. This is a new intro.
Jamie: So, not only do I get downgraded to a discussion lead as opposed to a moderator, but I also don't get the right jingle.
Jen: Ooh, remix. remix
Jamie: Way to make the moderator feel valued. yeah
Red D: I think maybe we need an official complaint channel where you can submit a complaint to the three of us and then we can evaluate it on a separate podcast. And then...
Jamie: Well, as we've already established, HR flat out trying to stop some of the frankly dodgy goings on on a spaceship. So it's not likely to be looked at anytime soon.
Red D: It does seem like low priority.
Jamie: Yeah, out of interest, which of us is head of HR for this podcast?
Red D: not me.
Jamie: I don't think it can be me given some of the things I've said.
Jen: No way
Jamie: think it's natural owner is Jenny.
Red D: I think that's how it works. HR takes care of the most problematic people and everyone else just has to put up with them.
Jamie: Hey, I will not hear you stereotype those valued members of the team coked up reprobates who couldn't get a job elsewhere, Red. Outrageous. Let
Red D: Also that was a bit mean and if you're in my HR at work, I apologize because you're not bad.
Jamie: me repeat that. I will not have you mischaracterize those reprobates that way again, Red.
Red D: Noted, noted.
Jamie: but Does this thing ever, you know, stop?
Red D: Oh, now he's complaining. He's always like, don't stop the music, don't stop the music.
Jen: Yeah, I'm usually the one who's, what's it turned out?
Jamie: Well, didn't say stop it. I said, does it ever? You know, it's a little bit of back and forth, a little bit of chemistry, a little bit of whinging. leads to, you know, bit of a feeling of humanity on a podcast, which as someone who's regularly filled failed the Turing test, I think is something we can all get behind, unless you you all want me to continue failing that particular one.
Jamie: Welcome, dear friends. This is Janeway's Children, season three, episode 10. Give me, with all the excitement you possibly can, the name of this episode. Over to you guys. Harder, harder, harder.
Jamie: More caps locks, more bold.
Red D: Wolo, woloz.
Jen: Warlord.
Jamie: No! Give it more! Give it more! Once more with feeling!
Red D: Wolo.
Jen: Warlord.
Jamie: Feeling! BORNARD!
Red D: Wolo.
Jen: I'm not
Red D: I like Jenny's really long pronunciation, I was copying that.
Jamie: Yeah, I'll finish.
Jamie: yeah Yeah, that was some, uh...
Jen: out. I kept hearing Warlock instead of Warlord recently. recent
Red D: Yes, I kept mispronouncing war, so I was really on a bad start.
Jamie: Well, i it's a good thing that we can all read and write, as we've got a lot of notes for this one.
Red D: Just.
Jamie: But yes, this is Season 3, Episode 10, Warlord. And in my one-minute summary, I'm going to be less plot detailed and more saying that this is a work of science fiction, Sionia overlap, in which we see such diverse movies as B-movie classic Scanners and other genres referenced as the intrepid crew intercept a distress call, rescue three aliens, one of whom dies, inplots their personality onto Kez who goes on a political journey of liberation and discovery as she hijacks a shuttle, undertakes a coup, all whilst under the guidance slash of Tiernan.
Jamie: The malevolent former warlord of that planet who has worked out a way to jump consciousness from body to body. And in so doing, unlocks powers that no one ever dreamt Kes had in scenes not unreminiscent of said BBB scanners. How are we feeling about that team? Are we there? Are we there?
Red D: I gotta say, I love that um that woman at the summary and I have to ask because I don't know when I'll bring it up again. In this movie Scanners, do people wear such high heels as Kez does when she embodies this warlord? Becomes the warlord.
Jamie: Yeah, no, it's more sort of, you know, people pretending to be, you know, demonstrating psychic power and their own head exploding.
Red D: Wow, I've got to watch this movie. I've written it down.
Jamie: it's it's pretty It's pretty grim, actually.
Red D: Okay.
Jamie: i haven But is it is also so bad.
Red D: Okay.
Jamie: It's not bad, but the special effects are so of their period that they are hilarious.
Jen: I have to echo red. That was an excellent one minute summary. well done
Jamie: It's alright, I'm just trying to bring the energy, guys. I'm just trying to bring the energy. Reactions. Beyond my initial want of one of... Warlord! Did I mention that? Warlord! I don't know why I'm really into the title, but you guys, reactions.
Red D: You really, really are.
Jen: That is a great title.
Jamie: I'm amped, team.
Jen: ah
Jamie: I'm amped.
Jen: I agree. i didn't even clock it before. So thank you for bringing it to my attention. And also the high heels. I did not notice that either. And presumably that was Tiran's choice of
Jamie: Yeah, Subject Fankez, Red.
Jen: work which to makes it even with it
Jamie: yeah which is
Red D: I mean, I did also realize how tiny Kez is in this episode, or the actor, um,
Jamie: we just
Red D: So perhaps they're just trying to elevate her. But there was one scene where she strode across that hall in that on the other planet. was like, wow, those are really some intense hills. It
Jamie: I didn't really notice them.
Red D: it was just one scene where I was like, oh, gosh. But otherwise she'd be even tidier.
Jamie: i'd also like to point out that I didn't notice them and in this instance it wasn't an excuse to tell you not to objectify the women on the show, Red. Or indeed say that that's my job as you know stereotypical white man.
Jamie: But yeah, other reactions.
Red D: I don't think it's confined to white men. But anyway.
Jamie: I know, I know.
Jen: is
Jamie: just It's just stereotypical, I said.
Jen: just Just the male palestales, yeah.
Jamie: Stereotypical. I know. Yeah, describes me pretty well.
Jen: um Yeah, I, i yeah, i something about those aliens with the weird tubule prosthetics on their face really freaked me out.
Jen: And so that was my initial short reaction when I saw it was those.
Red D: Oh, but good reaction because when I read your note, I wasn't sure. of i didt Yeah, but they freak you out. That's, I guess, a sign of effective prosthetics, maybe?
Jen: I don't know why.
Jamie: yeah i'm just gonna warn everyone i'm keeping a log of hr violations this call and we're starting with xenophobia from jenny no i'm only joking
Jen: yeah I just...
Red D: It wasn't like you think they...
Red D: i don't like the way they bleed out of those tubules where they get psychically damaged or whatever, but...
Jen: yeah oh i mean that definitely made it worse but it's actually just the tubules on their own which don't know it sort of reminds me of something don't know like an octopus suckers or oh yeah
Red D: Oh yes, a bit like that character from Pirates of the Caribbean.
Jen: oh yeah that also freaked me out yeah it's exactly that yeah oh that was well
Jamie: ah but The octopus organ player.
Red D: Yes, he did freak me out.
Jen: and um And yeah, the other initial reaction was like, oh no, it's this one.
Jamie: They should.
Jen: Because I'm afraid for me, this one is super cringe. And I cringe all the way through. But you know, I've been talking to you.
Red D: That is fine because I really...
Jamie: Why? Why?
Red D: enjoy this one but I think the for the reasons that make you cringe...
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: I enjoy it, but let's I guess we'll get there.
Jamie: Hmm. Noted. Shall we any any more initial reactions before we dive in and start dissecting?
Red D: Well, I didn't remember this alien species at all. So unlike Jenny, I guess those tubules didn't really make an impression on me at any point in my rewatching career.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: but um So for a while i was like, oh, what is this episode?
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: But then it kind of came back to me.
Jamie: Noted. Okay. That's strange, because i I really enjoyed this one, actually, but it does feel like an antagonist species that's like a one-episode deal and nothing else, which is a bit harsh. But, you know, they they get Kez and they nearly get Tuvok, which is good for an antagonist species.
Jamie: So, thought... Oh, sorry, Red, was that a hand up?
Red D: No, sorry, that was just, I muted myself because I had to cough and then I muted myself, sorry.
Jamie: I mean, cough, by all means, and don't feel you need to mute yourself. It adds a certain humanity to this. Again, as someone studying for my Turing test, I really want to embrace that.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: Jenny, first one to you.
Jen: Okie dokie. Well, I feel like there's gonna be some on-PC things for me. I'm gonna try really hard to...
Jamie: you about to objectify folk here?
Jen: maybe. But surely it's okay because it's a ah female half-Klingon half-human hybrid. No, I just think...
Jamie: Okay, is it Jenny?
Jen: I just have to comment.
Jamie: Xenophobia again.
Jen: I just have to comment that in the first scene, Valana looks hot! You know, she's in her swimming costume and that is that is one hot outfit.
Red D: Oh, she definitely does.
Jen: um Although i was surprised by her selection of what Tom Paris terms, program modification.
Red D: Jamie, I'm sorry.
Jen: Went for someone with quite significant manscaping.
Jamie: no
Jen: And I don't know, I always imagined B'Elanna with more of an Aragorn type compared to you know the the smoothness of a Legolas.
Red D: Oh, yes.
Jen: So that was a surprise.
Jamie: Mmm,
Jen: I think he was also wearing like a multicolored thong or something.
Red D: There was a lot of colors on this.
Jamie: it was amazing!
Jamie: Multi-coloured and slitted as well.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: She did
Jamie: not that i was Not that I was watching.
Red D: she did look great and she is hot. I mean, i always i always i mean she's obviously beautiful and she looked great in that swimsuit. And now that i think now i'm just wondering because I remember that hearing on The Office when they um you know they the office they used to like an episode a week.
Red D: And there's an episode where they all go to a pool, party like a party, and there's like a pool.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: And so suddenly everyone has to be in their costumes. And when they interview people or discuss it they're like, we got no warning that we we're goingnna have to be in costumes.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: So many costumes, sorry, or bathing suits in this episode. I wonder if Bellana had warning or she just had to turn up and be like, yeah, I'm just hot. That's how I roll. november
Jen: Oh my goodness, you would need warning for that kind of thing, surely.
Red D: I feel like...
Jen: I mean, you'd have to shave and stuff, surely, at the very least.
Red D: But... that's true but in the late 90s early 2000s i wonder yeah
Jamie: Could we, on your point that it feels out of character, it does look a little bit physically like Tom Paris in terms of colouring, hair colour, that sort of thing.
Red D: oh i don't also i could i when i i guess maybe i was watching it and sorry to make my notes but
Jamie: I'm just saying, just asking questions here people.
Jen: That's true.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: I couldn't help thinking that, um may or maybe I'm like really reading too much into this, but when she said, I made some modifications of my own, like in response to the modifications other people had made, so maybe playing up some things that she wouldn't wouldn't normally be her actual choice. But if it's just a hot hot hologram following around, giving her a towel, then...
Jamie: Don't you try and defend I read.
Jen: Is that all he's given her?
Jamie: Objectification is subjectification wherever it is, even in the HR handbook.
Jen: I know, I apologise. This is a very un-PC thing to mention. But I feel like you always can't mention it. They make such a big deal of that first scene with all the naked, are they half-naked women's volleyball team?
Jamie: Mmm.
Jen: And then there's Lana in a swimsuit and then she's made her modifications and the you know man in a thong.
Jamie: Mmm.
Jamie: Mmm.
Jen: and
Jamie: c
Jen: I felt like it couldn't be glossed over the best.
Jamie: Okay, I'm going to have to step in here and reassert control in the interests of public decency because any more and we'll start visually describing the Thon in terms both onomatopoeic and obscene, to use two words that begin with O. So i I would like to jump in with, whilst there are elements of this episode that I also embrace your reaction to the physical on, my first reaction was, I love it when one of the crew go, Evil Willow from Buffy. aka so will it i mean kez has powers because i it sort of really reminds me of the uh uh the series of buffy the vampire slayer where willow suddenly becomes malevolent and evil um and i sort of of a bit like oh so now kez has powers does that mean the psionics department on voyager will be slightly more used than a fart in a hurricane the next time the crew is psychically attacked because can only remember their performance the last time it happened in fact that they weren't part of the solution
Jamie: just saying thoughts please on the potential for improved performance from the sarnix department this episode demonstrates
Red D: I feel like I said everything I usually just say when we covered that episode and defended guests the best of my ability. but so
Red D: Well, yes, I think it is hinting at more capabilities, which we will dive into in future episodes.
Jamie: notion deep
Jen: I do really appreciate the bringing up of the series where Willowgo is evil because that was a great, I love that character just to totally sidetrack us from Buffy.
Jamie: supposed
Jen: That was, love that character arc.
Jamie: Well, you know thing that makes it most to Star Trek podcasts is by basically you know throwing in references to pretty much every other genre going. So happy happy to oblige.
Jamie: But...
Jen: and In fact, while we're at it guys, When I was looking up the next episode to watch of this, I happened to note that currently, free on Netflix is Farscape.
Jamie: Amazing!
Red D: Oh.
Jamie: Except i already own it.
Jen: Yeah, so if anyone wants to rewatch and...
Jamie: already own it!
Red D: Okay. I don't think I've but you ever watched it. So I'm noticing it down.
Jamie: oh
Jen: Oh, Red, you gotta watch just one episode, just one, yeah.
Jamie: Oh, it is, it's such a classic. Fans, just watch it like you won't know what you're watching.
Jen: it'
Jamie: It's, it's, it's amazing.
Jen: If only because one of our pets is named after to a one of the characters. this
Red D: Oh.
Jamie: And not the one you think either. Not the, um, the small crustacean. Um, who is one of the characters, but, um,
Red D: Oh.
Jamie: restraining my instinct to try and refocus discussion on how this episode suggests we restructure the Voyager Psylamics Department. Red, would you care to tell us your own sort of first point of reaction?
Red D: Well, yes, but this is taking us back to the opening scene on the holodeck and the tropical paradise they were all in and modifying.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: And I see someone has been um messing with my notes, but I will stick to them.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: yeah
Red D: and But we see, I guess you were looking at the thongs and the topless man.
Jamie: Is there a
Red D: My attention was caught by Neelix's bare feet.
Jamie: Oh, I was not.
Red D: So I'm going to... They had taken the time to do the makeup on his feet. And I thought to myself, I wonder how early he had to get to set that day. Because I think I read or saw on a documentary, because of his makeup and prosthetics and everything, he his call time was 4am, generally.
Red D: So something crazy like that. So I wonder if he had to get there at 3am to do his feet. Which reminds me.
Jen: That's why he made such a fantastic job of the crazy Neelix dancing because you know he wanted the feet to be worthwhile
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Yes, exactly.
Jamie: Yeah. I mean, did anyone else feel like the movement pattern, whilst foot-based, was slightly similar to some instances we've seen of President Trump dancing?
Jamie: Just sort of how he moves.
Red D: don't think I know Trump's dancing as well as I'm supposed to. I just that.
Jamie: I mean, I don't know how well I'm supposed to
Jen: Yeah, I think isn't he does more with the fists, doesn't he?
Jamie: No, no, no, not with the upper body, just like the same movement pattern, but the lower body. It's got the same sort of slight jerkiness.
Jen: The lower body reminded me of Riverdance.
Jamie: ah River dancing Donald Trump Hobbit.
Jen: Like, attempted Riverdance.
Jamie: I'm going to put that in AI. I genuinely think that if I put that in AI, I will get a recreation of the scene.
Red D: I think, sorry, Jamie, I don't know if it's just me, but you're breaking up a little, but hopefully you're going to come back. So if we're talking over you, I apologize. But um but I'm going to carry on doing it.
Jamie: But justice.
Red D: But Jamie, believe it or not, recently i watched videos of Riverdots from like 10, 15 years ago, because somehow it came up on our YouTube. I am not sure. And i was like, wow, these people are really good, because I wasn't really paying attention at the time. But just a random coincidence.
Jamie: No, I agree. I think Rivenance is wicked.
Red D: Yeah, they're so good.
Jen: Fastbeat. Talented.
Red D: So fast. I think now that I'm doing tap, I'm like, wow, these people are really good. I could never do that.
Jen: know
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah.
Jen: Yeah. Jamie and I went to see um now what was it called? day
Jamie: Oh, HMS Pinafore.
Jen: Yes. That's one.
Jamie: Oh, that was amazing.
Jen: Gilbert and Sullivan. um I didn't realise that had some tap in it. And it was so good.
Red D: Oh.
Jamie: 10 out of 10 recommend.
Jen: Tap is fantastic, isn't it?
Jamie: Oh, my days.
Jen: I kind of forgotten about it, but
Red D: It's very entertaining, like as a viewer for sure, like i while I find it.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: I am going sort of break ranks because it makes sense to me given the choreography.
Jamie: I would like to say my next point, which is that, oh hell, this episode gives, this this episode messes with my feelings for Neelix, because I'm feeling all the feels for Neelix, because it feels like his world fell apart when Kez told him to s stop smothering her, in the first mature interaction I've ever seen from them.
Red D: It's your turn. Oh, it's not your turn. Sorry.
Jamie: Then I remember this was moments after he was getting his feet massaged by a hollow lady he designed online, after basically spending 48 hours with cyber babes, only to hope he gets his love
Red D: ah yes
Jamie: back, only to feel foreshadowing of a dark future when we have their interaction on the return. I'm sad for Neelix, and I hate this! um But I do love the certain irony of him sort of being gutted about her asking for a bit of a mature space in the relationship just after he's been, you know, making cozy for two days straight to the volleyball team.
Red D: I think there was a part of me that was like, if it when we have the opening scene on this, you know, this, um, as I said, tropical paradise, was like, wait, isn't Neelix with Kez? I like, because I was like, a but not that he was actually doing anything.
Jen: Hmm. Ah!
Jamie: He's doing it for morale, Red. He's doing it for morale.
Red D: yeah Yeah. He wasn't actually doing anything that you can't do if you're with someone, but, um, I think he might actually have a point there, Jamie.
Jamie: I would like to voice the words of Pulp Fiction. Would you give a guy a foot massage to say that a foot massage is sort of, you know, a step over a line?
Red D: Okay, that's another movie I haven't seen, so I'm just writing it down.
Jen: Oh, that's a classic.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Oh my gosh.
Red D: I know it's a classic, but it came out when I too young, believe it or not.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: And it's a bit violent, so that's probably why I, yeah.
Jamie: Hmm. But yeah, sorry. And Jenny, this sort of segues into you also. going to jump out, although I hate to think I may have stolen a bit of thunder. So sorry. Hmm.
Jen: No, no, you're right. It segues, segues nicely. and Yeah, I just really, although you guys probably read this, this isn't one of my favourite episodes. I did, one one bit that I did really enjoy was that conversation, that sort of breakup conversation, which i sounds a bit sadistic.
Jamie: Yeah, are you embracing my hatred of Neelix?
Jen: um
Jamie: Because that's a bit harsh to be like, I enjoyed him being crushed.
Red D: Wow, you guys.
Jen: nothing
Jamie: God, Jenny, even I wouldn't say that.
Red D: I guess it's just why i'm you're married and I'm not in a relationship. because Anyway, I'll get to my point after Jenny. Good.
Jen: Oh, oh, this is that that sounds interesting. um Okay, no the reason I enjoyed it was not because I'm sadistic. It's because I just thought that was a really like interesting, engaging interaction, which I thought for Star Trek it was fairly realistic display of like a relationship breakdown conversation in in a super non-confrontational adult rational conversation type way because of course it's Star Trek and they're not going to be in their soap opera screaming and smashing things um but I just really appreciated that they both calmly explained how they were experiencing the relationship you know Neelix is hurt because you know he obviously wants to spend time with his partner
Jen: know you should not spend time with your partner one would hope versus Kez experienced that as like an obligation and control and they both i don't know just communicated that both well to each other and it's all a bit sad and I appreciate also that during this time she is uh taken over by an alien and so actually ah
Red D: I was angry
Jamie: I'm pretty surprised by how restrained he is and how civilised a breakup conversation is given the fact that he's another human who's having to fend off advances from Neelix.
Jen: well exactly
Jen: Well, this is thing. I just, I just enjoyed it for that aspect.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: like yeah I mean i think I liked when he said when she was I mean regardless of why she was saying it and she was like a i you don't like it when I spend time with other people and you want me to spend all my time with you and he was like no, i don't, but I thought, like, we would want to spend time together, and I get, and then he's like, well, I guess if you don't, then that's it, like, you know, there's a problem, like, you're right, he did, um, um, I, this is much smaller moment, but you know, when he, um, can, like, he contacts her via the communicator, sometimes I forget, starting
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: this Hmm. Hmm.
Jen: There's a problem. no
Red D: top terminology and he's like where are you and she doesn't like apologize or say it I'm sorry she's like oh I'll be there now and I was like that's um I'm always too quick to apologize and all this kind of stuff so I thought that was um uh a bit like bit like the moment where Tom Paris got out of explaining what he was but why he was on that why he was on earth in the 90s in the previous episode like no like defensiveness or anything just like oh I'm sorry I'm coming now like
Jamie: too long enough the
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: destin
Red D: Let's actually, anyway.
Jen: Yeah. Yeah. get what you're saying.
Jamie: Ultimately there's nothing we should feel guilt about, as guilt is an artificial social construct. um
Red D: No, that's definitely not true, but anyway. Yeah.
Jen: I mean Hitler might have something to do with it. I mean it's a useful emotion.
Jamie: Just thought I'd trial that one you know as a potential line for warlording when I'm warlord, having lived 200 years through body snatching.
Red D: i can I can jump a point and I will go and I'll throw this in because we're discussing this, but it is I think it is my turn.
Jamie: I'm just trying to pretend. I'm just trying to...
Red D: Because you went, then Jenny went, then I went, and then we'll go back.
Jamie: ah i'm just trying to pretend
Jen: but But Jamie's like a like a podcast version of Tyrion and he wants to be in control, Red.
Red D: Okay, sorry. But it is related to what we're discussing.
Jamie: umm just trying to put um Now, can I, before you do, can I say I love that you're doing this as I always try and mess you around when you're moderating by jumping out of sequence and you are fantastic at staying in sequence and I love the fact taking control out of sequence.
Red D: I'm just a rule follower. that's That's all. It wouldn't occur to me to try this with your sequence.
Jamie: Except now, except now, except now.
Red D: Well, because we've... cut Anyway, let me throw it in. But um I felt very bad for...
Jamie: Stop apologizing, remember.
Red D: Yes, I felt very bad when niles when he was getting this kind of
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Red D: new knowledge download from KISS and a different view of their relationship.
Jamie: I
Red D: um But I did thought think to myself, oh, I wish I could you know blame all breakups that I've had on a body snatching like ah experience and just say, oh, no, that guy's been inhabited by a new consciousness, not my fault.
Red D: So... ah
Jamie: i mean, that's genius. And I don't see why you couldn't. Because you don't see them again to give them the opportunity to clear their name. You could just do this retrospectively.
Red D: I mean, if... Imagine if I said, oh, we broke up and people were like, why? i was like, well, I think he was body snatched by a separate consciousness and he wasn't speaking for himself.
Red D: I don't think.
Jamie: Let's do it. Why did your penultimate relationship? No, no, no. your Your fifth last relationship. I don't know who that might be. Why did that fail?
Red D: It was definitely body snatching, body snatching.
Jamie: so so just Just come out with line. Why did it fail?
Red D: He was taken over up by an evil consciousness that wanted to rule a different world and he had to break up with me to achieve it.
Jamie: Fifth last one.
Jamie: Yep. Yep. Sounds like if the loss the fifth last one to me. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. yeah You can do that.
Red D: oh
Jamie: It works. It sticks. I love it.
Red D: like of
Jen: can i Can I follow Roslead and go slightly off to and another point because it's related?
Jamie: love how you're both embracing my anarchism my work here is done continue to the end of the podcast I shall not intervene I shall just be here meditating in chaos
Jen: Because it's related.
Jen: Well, excellent with meditation hands as well. i like it. ah Well, I just have this question though, because we're talking about using that as a reason for the breakup.
Jen: But this is why I don't understand. um This is like the Neelix Keds breakup episode. That's, I think. um But
Jamie: is it?
Jen: I don't know, well, it seems to me from this point on, they sort of are breaking up or have broken up. And I never understood this when I was younger because I couldn't understand, like the initial breakup, she has just been taken over by an alien.
Red D: Oh, I don't know.
Jen: So obviously that just doesn't stand. um And then I guess there's the conversation with Tuvok at the end, but I feel like that's not really an explicit, I want to end my relationship with Elix.
Jamie: No take backs. No.
Jen: It's more, they're just talking about how she's had an experience and it will change her and change her relationships so it's really ambiguous to me but maybe ah that's not how other people other people view it like is it more obvious to you guys that this is like a breakup episode
Red D: Oh, no, not at all. i mean, I don't remember. I don't I don't remember that this is actually their relationship does change after of this, because to me, I just assume they're going to go back to normal in the next episode.
Red D: have to be honest. Like, so.
Jen: maybe they maybe I'm misremembering maybe they do
Jamie: I mean, I could imagine if this happened in real life that like the aftermath would be pretty horrific, so I can't imagine it going straight back to normal.
Red D: No, I just don't remember.
Red D: Yeah, that's true.
Jamie: So it sets, I suppose, the dramatic platform in which the relationship can fail, but it doesn't to me signal it has failed it has ended from this point on. There's you know loads of dramatic breakups and then getting back to together and breakup sex and not getting back together sex and all of that you know potentially to happen in my head.
Red D: Well, you know, in that conversation they're having on the holodeck, I mean, even though she is inhabited by this Tyrion or whatever, like, this it did seem like there was some elements of truth in it.
Jamie: All the fun of the fair.
Jen: Interesting.
Jamie: um this Sounds like she's reading from the heart.
Red D: Or, like, I mean, it wasn't, like, so out of the blue that couldn't be...
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: um But...
Jamie: I mean, Neelix is a bit smothering as a character.
Red D: Yeah, but... and Maybe there was feedback that, I mean... I think Jamie, you've said from the beginning, you don't really buy them as a couple. Oh, like, you know, that kind of conversation has come up.
Red D: So maybe there was this feedback that was like, no, I, I,
Jamie: don't know where you get these slanders from. i have been... four square behind Neelix and Kess since the start and I resent you implying otherwise. Can't imagine where you get the idea dislike either of them.
Red D: um, but oh no i um
Red D: I mean, I am with you, Jenny, in the sense that if this was their breakup, that wouldn't make sense to me. But, you know.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, it's interesting what Davie said about how I guess that yeah, even if it's not a strict breakup, like, if you'd had that kind of conversation.
Jen: guess it wouldn't be like, guess it would cause some challenges.
Jamie: Yes.
Jen: um m
Jamie: Psychologically on both sides. Guilt guilt and oh my gosh, what's the that's how she really feels.
Jen: Yes, exactly.
Jen: Yeah, lets see what you mean.
Jamie: And is foreshadowed because the one interaction they have is a bit like, ooh, at the end. um But anyway, let let us pass on from speculation about poor Stout Neelix's relationship status and why he immediately downloaded Tinder after the events portrayed in this episode as beneath the dignity of this podcast, even in fur.
Jamie: And I would like instead to talk of dignified matters of can we please get HR involved at all our high command? Tyrion is getting his thang out on literally everyone.
Jamie: Like, I don't know if that's, you know, deliberate or just how Kez decided to play the character.
Red D: I was also wondering that.
Jamie: But, like, i don't want to I don't want to speak to that aspect of it. I want to speak to what H.R. would do that got in there and started kicking ass and taking names. Discuss.
Red D: Well, HR would file those complaints away and nothing would ever happen.
Jamie: Cynical. Again, i won't hear those poor so-and-sos maligned as depraved cookheads who wouldn't do their job or indeed know what their job was if it came and sexually harassed the eight child
Red D: Who are all these crockheads you keep referencing? Sorry, you made this joke like three times and it keeps going over my head.
Jamie: them.
Red D: Okay.
Jamie: HR department of Warlord Command. i just I have to think of them that way because Clearly folk have been getting away with literal, no, with metaphorical, not literal murder down there in HR perspectives.
Jamie: I mean, body snatching, ah gaslighting of not a hold of command, I'll scratch that one. There's clearly a lot going on there for a you know human resources professional to add some value addressing.
Jen: i think I think you're misunderstanding the the problem here, Jamie. It's that there is only one character doing all of this and they are the top and they are an authoritarian dictator, which means if there is a HR, HR is below them.
Red D: Yes.
Jen: So what can HR do?
Red D: Good point.
Jamie: Yeah, I mean, it is a bit of a flaw with the HR model in Corporatlandia in general, I agree.
Jamie: than ah HR being unable to sanction the big boss, which is making ah HR the big boss. And there, you know, you really are letting the lunatics run the asylum. So, yeah, it's bit difficult that perspective.
Jen: Thank you.
Red D: I can see some pushback there.
Jamie: Yeah, want to file away. um Right, who's next? Who wants it?
Red D: No, no, I think that was a really good point because i don't know if I wrote it down, um but Tyrion...
Jamie: What, the fallacy of putting HR in command? Yeah, I agree.
Red D: No. Tyrion, okay, and for clarity, played...
Jamie: Thurion, Tiernan, Tiernan.
Red D: Oh, TNN. Played... Is Kiz, so is Kiz. I mean, i haven't any we haven't really commented on this and I do love her transformation and the fact that she does act differently and is playing a different character from like the acting perspective because you can...
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm. Yeah.
Red D: When they don't change, you don't know the acting, guess, in a sense.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: And I thought she did a pretty... I liked her transformation, let's say.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: um But then, yes, she just is like using power and sex to make promises to everybody to wi get more power. And um whether it's the brother of the opposition, the wife, the...
Red D: um Yeah, like he was tapping into his... new body to get the opposition promising the wife that she'll still get lots of i guess money or power but um he did remind me of when i watched a little bit of i don't think i watched a lot of it but the that um no no the white house show or whatever and then i was like oh politicians all they do is promise other people something like trying to get people to give them something in
Jamie: Oh, that HL documentary. Yeah, I know the one. Yeah,
Red D: like exchange for a promise of doing something in the future. That's all they spend their time doing basically. And this seemed like a very clear example of that. um
Jamie: I thought that was just working life, really.
Red D: Well, yeah, okay. um ha where Maybe it was West Wing or what's that one with, ah.
Jamie: Sorry, I'm taking the piss, I'm so sorry. And yeah, I do know what you're saying. It does it does sort of remind of the West Wing. It's sort of...
Red D: ah
Jamie: VP? vi who House of Cards.
Red D: ah Robin White Pen or Robin White Pen and the the guy...
Jen: Oh.
Red D: Oh, anyway. That's got my mind.
Jen: Oh, Kevin Spacey.
Red D: Yes. Yeah, that one.
Jen: Oh, that one, yeah.
Red D: I watched a lot of them.
Jen: ah
Red D: Yes, there we go.
Jamie: thought you were going say Olympus has fallen.
Red D: No, but this promise thing... Convince people to do something for you in exchange for a promise of doing something in the future seems to be... It's very tiring way off of being...
Red D: think But...
Jamie: Yeah, can imagine. Imagine having to keep track of like that and not having like a debit card account to keep track of all of that. You could be owing favours without even knowing it and they could be accumulating interest.
Red D: yeah
Jen: I mean, it's disappointing as well to think that so much, if that is accurate, which I have no idea because politics is terrible. um If that was accurate, it's disappointing to think that so much time would be spent on that rather than like running a country. Mm.
Red D: oh so much is spent on because i can see this even in work projects keeping people happy not like doing analysis and figuring out the best solution you're oh this person's happy now but i've called them others but oh my god like just get a life and move on to answer
Jen: oh
Red D: Anyway, as you can see, Eldna,
Jen: yeah or rather than you know having the actual evidence of for making a next step or a proposal or that's only one tiny element it's then you can't just show that evidence and everyone says yes accurate let's go you you then have to do this additional convincing element that takes way more effort and way more time and it's a bit ridiculous than if you've got evidence to support the next step that you've proposed
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Yes, I understand that people might not accept everything at first, but that you know, first presentation or that, but like, then let's all discuss it together.
Jamie: hmm
Red D: It's all the one-on-one that has to be happening that I just think is super inefficient.
Jamie: yeah i mean it's it's a flaw in the human condition that people don't like to be convinced or change their minds in front of people which is basically what leads to the very dynamic
Red D: Okay.
Jen: really good point.
Red D: okay
Jen: Humans, honestly, they're the worst. hey
Jamie: yes Yeah, I don't disagree, apart from whatever the species are that we're talking about. um Red, I think you went. I think Jenny, it's it's over to you, Chief.
Jen: Okay, well, since we're talking about all the sleaze, I have a point about sleaze, which was originally like a small point and then it morphed into like an essay.
Jamie: like a Wow, embarks on a paragraph long rant here.
Jen: So I'm gonna...
Red D: Yeah, you guys wrote long notes. I haven't read them. I just see long...
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: I got to make admission here. I had about... two sentences and they were about 10 words but i said I couldn't think of anything else so I just decided to I'm just gonna have to expand because like it's really struggling with this one for some reason it occasionally happens um yeah so I mean I also thought what is with all the weird sleazy sexual stuff that the Kez Tyran character
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: is uh embodying will is like coming on to practically everyone you know like trying to coerce the the wife and the new husband into some polygamous threesome when the wife is not happy about it yeah yeah and
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Oh yes. Well, well, no, she is, she's like, there've been some unexpected changes.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: No, she's very doubtful, but
Jen: yeah yeah and then and then there's this weird situation where oh don't worry you want my reassurance well here it is i don't think she's very reassured And then, and yeah.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: no she's very doubtful but
Jamie: I mean, yeah.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Red D: I think in a very, at first I was a bit like Jamie. i was like, is this Kez, the actress, Jessalyn, making these character choices? Like I wasn't, because sometimes actors always trying to, you know, like sometimes infuse something.
Red D: But then I was thinking about, or not to, we don't have, this is not to get into all the details, but obviously the Epstein file, all these files that have been released recently, and you realize that powerful people,
Jamie: Oh my gosh. I just had film.
Red D: And I have heard this not just like, I mean, I've heard on podcasts and stuff like when you can have all the money in the world, all the power in the world, you have to start breaking taboos because then like, what's the point of having all that power and money in a sense? Like no one's going to hold you accountable.
Red D: And now you feel like you don't have to live by the rules as ever, same rules as everyone else. So while I was a bit like, at first was bit like, I'm not sure I'm getting this maybe, then in light of recent events, I'm like, maybe this is how powerful people behave.
Red D: i don't i don't know. I'm not hanging out with them, but
Jen: ye
Jamie: I would like to put my hand up and offer a different interpretation and say that whilst this has been the traditional view of this episode, it's been completely preserved. We've all got completely the wrong stick.
Jamie: This isn't a story about body snatching. This isn't a story about a political coup. We've been demonising the wrong person. This is a story about a sex addict and all his actions are a cry for help.
Jen: okay
Jamie: It fits.
Red D: Well, he's stayed alive for 200 years.
Jamie: It just fits everything. It fits everything.
Red D: yeah
Jamie: 200 years propelled by addiction, extreme actions, body snatching, coups, everything just in pursuit of getting their next fix. Indiscriminate sort of come-ons to everyone going.
Jamie: It's it's pure sex addiction, tell you.
Jen: they are indiscriminate um i have an additional an additional i do think that's a really good point read about um like what happens when you
Red D: That's true. That is a bit sex addict-y.
Jamie: it's it's it's it's I'm just saying it's consistent with. And if that turned out to be the case, wouldn't we feel like dreadful people for being mean about it?
Red D: I don't have any better compassion for sex addicts. I don't know what your point is.
Jamie: That's so harsh. Poor sex addicts.
Jamie: I was hoping you could say that's a really good point about sex addiction.
Jen: No, no, well I mean that's a fair point but I think the whole you know what else do you do them in power and then it drives them to these mad you know things but I just I think though what it was is that that is very much that sort of Epstein scenario it's the men exploiting women isn't the men of power exploiting women and with this one I did think well yeah maybe it's a character choice um
Jamie: It's an interpretation.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: that could have been one that Kess made as well, but also, apart me, it's like, my ranty feminist part is like, who wrote this? Who directed this? It was quite clearly men, wasn't it? And they they chose the the pretty blonde female little lead to be dressed up in some kind of like S&M leather outfit and then play out, play out, I can only...
Jamie: Yes.
Jamie: sister system
Jen: guess it's some authoritarian fantasy that they had in their head and that they pitched it as this female empowerment thing but in fact it's basically their opportunity to you know play that out anyway these are just thoughts I had I mean i could be very wrong and but I think I think the problem that made me that's what makes me uncomfortable about the whole episode and why I don't enjoy it that much and I could be reading way too much into it of course
Jamie: yes this just system
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Yeah.
Red D: Interesting.
Red D: Yeah, but I think she's not, she's not, it's not Kez that's trying to seduce the men. It's the men, the man in her that seduce.
Jamie: yeah
Red D: So it is a man using his power. um She's just the vessel. He has a new, he has a new tool in his arsenal, which is her attractiveness, let's say.
Jen: Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, like in the story, I get that, but it's more what's going on in into in the real life situation.
Red D: yeah, yeah. yeah
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: um
Jamie: In response to this, I am, I think, making a note to stroke my beard knowingly and say gender power dynamics in an insightful voice when we discuss themes at the end.
Red D: I thought it was quite interesting that I kept referring to her as a child and I had to keep reminding myself, why do I keep doing that? And then I was like, oh, she is like two years old or three years old or something.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: But yeah.
Jen: Yeah, they used this a lot, which also I think is part of what creeps me out about it as well.
Red D: but i think that's a fair criticism, but...
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: It's like, yeah, I don't know. I just, I'm just just imagining the people sitting down writing this episode and then directing it and choosing the costumes and all those things. And yeah.
Red D: And you didn't notice her high heels.
Jen: I didn't notice that.
Jamie: I'm too busy focusing on the volleyball team.
Jen: ear No, no.
Red D: Okay.
Jen: I mean, it felt very SNME, but more from all the black PVC.
Red D: Oh,
Jamie: So wait.
Jen: And the neck brace, the metal collar as well.
Jamie: You didn't.
Jen: Like I just, add them yeah, I just, it had bad vibes to me.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: yeah, that was an interesting choice. Yeah.
Jamie: I just wanted to point out that... So, you telling me that you didn't notice the high heels, but you did notice the thong?
Jen: The thorn on the guy, yeah. Although.
Red D: Which I have to admit, I did not see what I don't know.
Jamie: Oh, yeah, here we go. i didn't see that. I wasn't looking for that.
Red D: All butts are covered to me. I don't know what this is.
Jen: Yeah, to be fair, i'm not sure
Jamie: All butts are a closed door.
Jen: that we can confirm it was a thong because I don't think he turned around.
Jamie: Oh, dear.
Red D: Oh, well, that's maybe why I didn't see it. Yeah.
Jen: It just looked like it might be.
Red D: It looked thongy.
Jamie: Okey dokes. I would like to move from this serious topic and important discussion to ask a question of almost equal profundity.
Jamie: So, Deimos, the son of the Autarch who spends time moonlighting on Voyager, is there any reason why he sounds at times like a whiny John Lithgow or John Malkovich?
Jamie: And did anyone else get that snap?
Red D: His voice did sound familiar. That is true.
Jamie: I mean, I don't think he was acted by them, but like, it was really striking.
Red D: i've No.
Jamie: I don't know how you do that.
Red D: Maybe he's from the same part of town because I now have lived in the UK long enough where, sorry, like I'll hear an accent on TV and be like, wow, that's like the accent my colleague has.
Red D: They must be from the same, like they from the Lake District or they from, yeah sorry, I'm trying to think of another way to say this.
Jamie: Shire.
Red D: um
Jamie: Are you telling me that prior to the time in the UK, all of us people sounded the same to you?
Red D: Except for Cheryl Cole, yes.
Jen: but
Jamie: She doesn't sound the same to her. I No, joking. Sorry, that's that's very hard.
Red D: I knew she had a Geordie accent, but that's about it.
Jen: I met someone. um
Jamie: so So I'm not the only one who hears that. Other people sort of hear that Lithgow slash Malkovich in them.
Red D: His voice. Yeah, I think that's a very, yeah, I think John Lithgow, that's a good, Lithgow, that's a good, um, comp. Sorry, Tani.
Jen: Which character was it Jay?
Jamie: Deimos, the Autarch's son.
Jen: I'm gonna have to re-listen I think. I didn't notice it but...
Red D: He had a distinctive voice, that's for sure.
Jen: um
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: I noticed it. So, yeah, that's interesting.
Jamie: Yeah, very very sort of, in my head, East Coast money, maybe? i don't know. No, maybe West Coast money. Maybe Central America money.
Jen: I mean, i was going to say also that I met the ah acquaintance of ours, of all three of us.
Jamie: Maybe Greenland.
Jen: um I met her voice doppelganger. It was freaky. It literally, I don't know if I could have if I heard this person speaking, I would have been able to tell the difference between her and this friend, our mutual friend who, ill you know, say name with one of the podcast, but who we've all known for 10 years, you know, it was so similar.
Red D: That is so crazy.
Jen: And I asked this lady where she was from, just in case, you know, no, but they she wasn't from the same area at all. It was so weird.
Red D: that's crazy.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: you're gonna have tell us when we finish recording. Now so intrigued.
Jen: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm, fascinating. i Yeah, TV notions. Red, i think it goes to you, Chief.
Red D: Uh, is it me? So I guess, yeah, this concept of this Tier- Tier- Tier- sorry, being so power hungry that he, like he, well, he finds a way to his, like, stay alive for 200 years, which is actually not, like, a feature of the Arabian race.
Red D: And when he lands, and they've, like, executed the the coup and stuff, he's, he seems so convinced that he deserves this power.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: And I just kept thinking, he shouldn't even be alive. Why are you entitled to this, like, be the Ohtok or talk whatever? And then also, a little thing that stood out to me is when they were on the shuttle, he was on the shuttle with his crew returning to the planet, and they get the update, like, 400 men are ready to go into battle.
Red D: I'm like, This is about 400 men. Like how tiny is this power?
Jen: So
Red D: It's like when people struggle for power and these tiny non-significant things, I'm like, what is the point?
Jamie: Yeah, they might as well be trying to be chief on the parish council.
Red D: What is the point? i mean, the example I bring up all the time is when they...
Jen: so
Jamie: I do not recognise your authority here, Nicky Weaver. Sorry, Carrier.
Red D: The example I bring up all the time, and now going do it a public-owned podcast, when I was rowing at one point, and... some people got together, kicked out one rowing captain so they could install another rowing captain. I'm like, what is the point of this? We're at university.
Red D: This is not the UN or like the US government where or China where it might have some bearing on something like,
Jen: What
Jen: what i what I'm taking from this read is that you will only be an authoritarian leader if it's in the tens of thousands because 400 people is not worth your time, only real power.
Red D: Well, I will never be an authoritarian leader because I can't see the point of wielding a little bit of power to get more power to get more power to get more power.
Jamie: It's
Red D: It's too much effort. It's too much effort.
Jamie: more just showing that you can do it, really. It's more just showing that you can do it, really.
Red D: Say that again?
Red D: Yeah, but really believing in your, that that has any meaning. I'm like, that's, wow. um I'm kind of impressed, but don't get it.
Jamie: But I mean, if you're there, you probably find it difficult to find anything in life having meaning.
Jen: maybe on their world and their planet.
Jamie: Cartesian dilemma undermines everything.
Red D: I don't
Jamie: Maybe these people are just sex addicts who you know have been undermined by the Cartesian dilemma. Did you ever to think about that?
Red D: know. I just thought people are always trying to, well, not people, not all people, but some people are always struggling for a bit of power and in such insignificant ways. I don't get but that's just me.
Jen: Maybe on their planet there are only 500 people.
Red D: That's true.
Jen: and they but then the thing is they obviously have capable of space travel and they obviously are aware of all these other worlds and other aliens so that argument doesn't really hold up because
Red D: That's true.
Red D: I'll just be like, if I can live my little life in my little Shire, then I'm happy. That's, yes. Yes. Yeah, but
Jen: and that is why you will never be an authoritarian leader Red
Red D: that's
Jamie: Yeah, that's what that you fail at being an authoritarian and leader.
Red D: yes
Jamie: Shame! Yeah, it doesn't really feel like something that you're gonna feel that bad about for reasons that don't occur to me.
Red D: yeah but
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: I mean there is the yeah obvious element of yes what one would hope that none of us understand it is as otherwise
Red D: Yes, yeah, yeah.
Jen: we've got problems
Red D: That's... but but
Jamie: I mean, I have found the sense of absolute power that goes with being a cox quite appealing, but yes, other than that...
Red D: Yeah, that's why you make a good cox. you do And I would make a bad one. So there is that. Yeah.
Red D: He's raising his finger. He's got something to say. Keep rolling, guys. I think he's...
Jen: Oh no, oh the finger was a, do we need talk Red.
Red D: Oh, he's having a technical difficulty.
Jen: Technical, technical difficulty.
Red D: um oh yeah, we can't hear him.
Jen: um Okay, can't heal, can't heal, we're gonna have to.
Red D: Jamie, we can't hear You're talking.
Jamie: Sorry, my headphones ran out of battery.
Red D: there we go.
Jamie: Dreadful things.
Red D: You're back.
Jen: I was about to say we're gonna have to continue about authoritarianism, Red. Anything else to say on matter?
Jamie: You cannot continue rudderless. You cannot. nickcky Weaver, you have no authority in here. i'm Sorry, you were saying, Karen.
Red D: Jenny, just to say, it's not that I don't fan fantasize about being a benevolent dictator, because back to our earlier point, I would just run everything according to evidence and everyone's lives would be much better. so it's ah it's a tension.
Jamie: Ah.
Red D: There's a tension there.
Jamie: There is a tension, especially as you can consult consult, you can construct an entirely logical argument for two diametrically opposed positions and indeed evidence them. ah So I'm just thinking that might impact. Right. Who's next?
Red D: Not me, Jenny.
Jamie: Not Red. Excellent. Jenny.
Jen: Oh, okay. What do I have left? Let's see. and
Jen: I only have the one minuscule, slightly trivial non-point, but there we I think also part of the reason why i really offend I do find it cringy, other than all the other reasons I've already given it.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Sorry, Kes, whoever the actor is.
Jen: is that obviously her normal character is very, tends to be, at least at the start in the earlier episodes, quite like sweet and innocent and Disney.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And so it really reminds me of like watching a teen Disney star go straight from that to a really over the top sex scenes, you know, but like like a Miley Cyrus type thing, because they want to prove that they're an adult and prove themselves.
Red D: And they have no good adults in their lives, i think, helping them, but yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: This is a good point, yeah. um And it just like, it really reminds me of that. I feel like it's, you know, they've taken her character, which this really you know innocent sort of girl and then gone straight for the, I am an authoritarian dictator in my tight leather, trying to have it off with everyone. and um That element of it, like the sharp sort of U-turn makes me cringe a little bit.
Red D: I think that is a good analogy, but I still, I think that is a really good analogy, but I i think I really saw her as a completely different character, like, except when she was trying to fight through, I guess.
Jen: I'm sorry, Star Trek.
Red D: um
Jen: Oh, like those bits.
Red D: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because she was, you know, overcoming him with her the power of her mind, which, you know, I believe in a lot, the power of the mind, but I think that is a good analogy.
Jamie: to make it.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: I mean, I didn't necessarily see it that way, but i could see I think that's a really good way of explaining it That was always very disappointing.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: was like, oh, not another one. They have to already break the mold to like, yeah, yeah.
Jen: I know, right? Yeah, why couldn't they just sort of gently test out other things and get to know what they want to do outside of Disney? No, they have to go full on, you know, swing on a pendulum.
Red D: They have to do full nudity straight away.
Jamie: I would like to present the case for the opposition, which is that I think they're trying to generate a dramatic contrast by making it so stark.
Jamie: Successfully. And if it jars, it's supposed to.
Jen: Well, we are talking about it, which I'm sure is what they wanted.
Jamie: is the point. Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, so...
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: But also, yeah, I mean, it's it's very, it's like art or whatever. It's very subjective. So I just, i think your analogy right is really a good one because I know exactly what you mean and the feeling I had when that happened watching these stars. I didn't happen to have it watching this episode, but it makes a lot of sense.
Jen: I think I was slightly influenced as well by, I so i saw some kind of meme or something, a pop-up
Jamie: should influence you.
Jen: or a feed I know, I know it's terrible isn't it? Oh, the dangers of social media. It was, yeah, well, yeah, this is the problem.
Red D: It's going to influence your Star Trek opinion.
Jen: um I need to read more literature.
Red D: No, I'm joking Jenny. Oh yeah.
Jen: Oh, no, I genuinely worry about, you know, all the stuff that goes into your brain without you actively like picking up a book on it, you know, because you're just scrolling.
Jamie: hmm
Jen: Anyway, um It was ah like an Emma Watson quote. um And it was something about how she felt after being Hermione in the Harry Potter movies, that she didn't she didn't want to follow that path, like go from that, um you know, just, she was so, be so desperate for people to see her as something other than the Hermione character that she goes completely the opposite way.
Red D: Yeah, yeah, no, yeah.
Jen: And she didn't feel like she should have to prove that she's not Hermione. And so,
Red D: But yeah, I mean, that is a dream world that actors are living in, if I may say, because ah like ah you hear this a lot from people who are very successful for a specific role and they really hate it, but you're like,
Jen: Yes, true.
Red D: Well, not that they really hate it but but it is it does seem like a struggle and something that you either accept or you fight against. Like I'm thinking of, I'm not listening to the How Met Your Mother podcast and it has the actor who plays Ted and the writer.
Red D: And yeah, he really, it seems like he was kind of resentful of Ted for a while, the character, because, you know, he couldn't get something that wasn't Ted.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: and He was probably not Ted, thanks.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: But I'm like, that's unfortunately...
Jen: It's first world problems, isn't it?
Red D: It's kind of how it works.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: And also, even if you think of like character actors, like there's that one guy who always plays like baby creepy neighbor, the guy from like Scrubs and Cougar Town and a couple of, he's like always playing the same character.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Crucial sound.
Red D: And he said, he's actually said, I'm really happy to do that because that pays my bills, my mortgage, my whatever. But you know, says...
Jen: It's very down to earth.
Jamie: Well, I mean, you say this, but Dan Radcliffe managed to break out of that.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: I mean, granted, he had to get naked in front of, you know, the horse playing very quick.
Jen: like
Red D: I think that's Jenny's point. ah
Jen: I mean, he did do non-stationate nudity, didn't he? But that was I think that theatre, I guess. It's slightly different, maybe.
Red D: Yeah, you have a bit, yeah.
Jen: please
Jamie: Fine, that makes it arty. It's fine. It's fine if it's arty. It's not fine if it's, you know, while you're leading a coup of a planet, try and bring peace and prosperity back to a 600-strong village, which you've conquered with 400 soldiers. Just...
Red D: Janie, going back to your point about literature, i am actually reading a book that I'm begrudgingly reading it.
Jamie: Well done.
Red D: um But it's related to this topic. It's called The Seven Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle. And the concept is that this guy has inhabits eight different hosts of someone.
Jamie: I'll have hope of it.
Red D: He's going to try solve the murder of someone to escape from being in this loop over and over again.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: But he does keep inhabiting different people, um which I can't say I'm really enjoying it, but I'm forcing myself to carry on really good.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: I was gonna say is this a recommendation or
Red D: But if you want, well, I mean, it was very popular. So i don't think you should take my my opinion. But yeah.
Jen: maybe I'll enjoy it you know I'm on the last Philip Pullman book of dust currently which um well did you read the Philip Pullman trinity when you're a kid read at the originals the northern northern nights ah
Red D: Nice.
Red D: is this Is this the one what they called? No. I think my friend did.
Jen: okay yeah it's a
Red D: Yeah. No.
Jamie: Love the first two, last ones a bit. Seems to be a theme in his trilogies.
Jen: Well, I think, I think I was just thinking that if you read them as a kid, I think that's what, yeah, like that's what makes it exciting to read the, because there's that nostalgia and familiarity, but probably less so if, I'm not sure I'd recommend them for, the just for a read particularly.
Red D: You definitely want to read them.
Red D: I think there's some things that didn't filter through just the Africa, although I have a feeling I remember one of my friends reading, but it could be wrong.
Jamie: I mean you sort of have to read it in a European winter at Christmas time, i feel, um because it is sort of a whole
Red D: Maybe that's why.
Jamie: world set in a European winter that then sort of moves north through Scandinavia or at least a recognizable version of Scandinavia.
Jen: Yeah, sort of centres around Oxford. Well, alternative reality at Oxford.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: And then, yeah it moves, like Jamie says, to, yeah, Arctic.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Oh, OK.
Jamie: And regretfully, because I love talking about that series and I love i love winter and the idea of Scandinavian climbs at winter, I feel I need to sort of bring us on. And I only had one last thing and it was around ah that very, very niche B movie that I mentioned, Scanners. And I was just wondering because so many, so many elements of this reminded me of it. Neither of you guys saw it, did you? So it would typically be when Kez employs psychic powers to make someone physically submit, you know and you know they suddenly get nosebleeds and things like that. It was just that. You guys didn't watch Scanners, and that didn't ring any bells, did it?
Jen: No.
Red D: No, but I feel like that is a, ah but not a trope, but, but you've, see yeah, you've seen, I must've seen it somewhere else, but I do want to watch Scanners and you never know where people get the inspiration for their episodes when they're writing them.
Jamie: Common trope of psychic powers.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: So, um,
Jen: That's no, I agree.
Jamie: Well, you...
Jen: That's definitely, I've definitely seen that elsewhere as well. the Using mind control and that's a signal that it's working that someone gets a nosebleed. I feel like that's been on a few programs.
Red D: Oh yeah, good point.
Jamie: I need to go more, even less niche than scanners then. notice is um Right, I think I've passed the baton to you now. Having had an absolute dud of a last point on my side, for which I apologise.
Red D: it wasn't i've written scanners down it's just that we don't know the movie that's all um well that's what makes it sounds very intriguing i like more cult classics than i think very random taste in movies um
Jamie: It was a dud! Don't lie to me, people. It was a dud.
Jamie: Very few people do to be fair. I think it's better in the way.
Jen: I'm quite excited to see what you think of Farscape. You have to watch one episode, really.
Red D: yeah
Jamie: Oh, dear.
Jen: And take it with, you know, it's supposed to like laugh, I think. It's supposed to be funny.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Anyway, carry on.
Red D: I will keep that in mind. This is supposed to be funny. This is supposed to be funny.
Jen: um I don't know if it's supposed to be funny, but you should definitely take it as comedy.
Red D: Okay. Some British comedies, when you're not used to them, hopefully I am now, like Greenwing is an example that I think back to, which I watched Italy, Africa, just did not get.
Jamie: Oh, Graydon's amazing.
Jen: Oh, yeah.
Red D: And I'm like, I should probably try and watch that again now. Because, um
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Jen: Yeah, maybe you might have a completely different take on it now.
Red D: oh, I should have tried again, like a few years after living here. You know, like, him
Jen: Just clarify, Farscape is Australian.
Red D: Oh, okay.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: yeah
Jen: think Make of that what you will.
Red D: Ah, I have been watching a lot of Australian old TV, so maybe... Yeah. This was more like a random question. And back to the power conversation, I guess, a little bit. But Tianan, when he's getting upset and he doesn't like what everyone's saying, he's like, clear the room.
Red D: And I feel like you see this on TV a lot, like powerful, when powerful people or rich people are getting in a way, they're like, clear the room, clear the room.
Jamie: system that's a good question.
Red D: And is this something that really happens in real life? And so why? Why does everyone have to leave the room? like why god No, I've never experienced it.
Jen: Interesting. I have never experienced it myself.
Red D: I'm happy to say.
Jen: I wonder.
Jamie: Sorry, I've got the hiccups, which is most unhelpful. I feel I have i have seen it before.
Red D: real life. Wow.
Jamie: I'm not sure where, though.
Jen: Real life?
Jamie: Yeah, yeah.
Jen: Oh
Jamie: Yeah. I mean, consider the organisations that I work for.
Red D: Hmm, not so surprising.
Jamie: Yeah, and also consider how annoying I am. haven Likewise, similarly surprising. i Can I pick up on one of the points that you make that I feel is sort of related? I love the, along with clear the room, i have taken power, decorate the room!
Jen: Oh yes, he wants to read it.
Red D: Who said, oh, yes.
Jamie: Because actually, when I'm misinterpreting, because when you said clear the room, I thought you were talking about when Kez was literally like everyone out, as opposed to
Red D: Yes, that's what I was talking about, but...
Jen: Yeah, that's how I thought.
Jamie: So you weren't like when she was like, clear the room of the former decorations.
Red D: But it was also that. That's a good point. ah
Jen: Take down the wall hangings.
Jamie: I wasn't really sure what you were going for.
Red D: Like that, but I understand, because people always want to rip down the previous regime and put their own stuff with things. But does everyone get out the room and everyone has to obey?
Jamie: Yeah, it's interesting.
Red D: Happy to say I've never seen it in real life, but you do see it on in like film and TV.
Jamie: Yeah, absolutely. Right. Any more for any more, I think.
Red D: I just had one tiny point, but like imagine being betrayed by your brother like that.
Jen: I'm done.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: I feel that's pretty, pretty bad.
Jen: Though he seems like he
Jamie: I imagine praying my sister all the time. i Sorry, you were saying.
Jen: he seems like he knew it was coming.
Red D: he did, he did.
Jen: I think you know I didn't have a great relationship.
Jamie: Yeah. He knew that was going to happen. He said that his brother was one of his unreliable allies, there you go. And if you have to call family member an ally as opposed to just family member, it probably tells its own story.
Red D: I guess I'm being very naive because if I just think about the big things I know about Roman history it's pretty common to stab a member of a family in the back so yeah so
Jamie: Yeah. Et tu frateris.
Jamie: Themes? Thoughts?
Jen: sex power control and in ah according to jamie drugs
Jamie: There's so much enthusiasm.
Jamie: What the hell? I didn't say drugs.
Jen: well you kept talking about hr coke sniffers or something don't know
Red D: Cocaine.
Jamie: Oh, I see. I thought you'd misunderstood my sex addiction point. Actually, I'm gonna put it in. Sex addiction.
Red D: I...
Jamie: Plains everything.
Red D: Clearly some of this went over my head. But um I guess... ah Yeah. but During the episode... um i I thought it was a bit like a, I wasn't really picking up strong themes.
Red D: was more like Kez in an action anti-hero movie type thing, um which was, i as I said, quite thought quite fun.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: But when she has a conversation with Tuvok at the end and she's been doing the meditations that he's like prescribed or suggested as she is trying to, I guess, return to normality.
Red D: And he does point out that, you know, something's happened in your life that just changed their trajectory. forever and there's nothing you can do about that. And, um, how it's like kind of how you handle that.
Red D: But, um,
Jamie: yeah
Jen: you But you get a choice in how it changes from this point.
Red D: yeah.
Jamie: Yeah, where you go with that change.
Jen: Like, I think that, yeah, I know what you mean. I love that quote at the end. It's like, um you can't go back to what it was. Things have changed, but you can choose the trajectory from this point on.
Jen: I thought something like that, but I thought it's a really wise Tuvok quote again read another one.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: It is, yeah, it is very wise, but it also makes me feel bad for people when those things happen through no choice of their own, you know, like, and yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. in
Jamie: yeah yeah Kes didn't choose to get possessed by a sex addict.
Red D: Yeah.
Red D: But she's the same person.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: She's, and as you and how she handles it going forward has more bearing as Tumak and you said, Jenny, but yeah.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: And, you know, she has a bright future in the Sionics Defence Department.
Red D: Did you just make up the word psionics? I just- I keep meaning to ask.
Jen: I think you've forgotten the word is it polyphonic spay or something is that the actual word
Jamie: Polyphonic Spree, the band from the 2000s.
Jen: the name for the...
Red D: The pyrotechnics bainer, what's it called when you grow plants in water?
Jen: do
Jamie: I think if you look up psionics it means what I said it does.
Red D: I've never heard this- I believe you, I've just never heard this term before.
Jamie: P-S-I-O-N-I-C-S.
Jamie: I think I saw it in Akira. Yeah, psionics was a proposed discipline that applied principles of engineering to the study and employment of paranormal or psychic phenomena such as extrasensory perception, telepathy and psychokinesis. Thank you Wikipedia, the thinking man's AI.
Red D: Guys, this is very random, but something kind of creepy happened to me yesterday.
Jamie: Look, I've said before I'm sorry about hanging out outside your flat.
Red D: is
Red D: i mean, this is a real stretch, but I haven't told anyone else's story, so I'm going to share it off. But I often listen the History Extra podcast, and I started listening to this old episode, which is about like the study of the of the supernatural and like, ah you know, this kind of thing.
Jamie: I
Red D: And so the guy was like you saying from the Victorian era, where they started trying to study these things scientifically and the society was founded.
Jamie: will walk through a dark garden to get home. Sorry, carry on.
Red D: And um no no, and I was walking home.
Jamie: I've got to walk through a dark garden which is dark behind me.
Red D: And then at the end of the episode, the host was like, oh yeah, you have something interesting to play for us. so Like a recording, right? Because now we're in the modern era. So people can actually make recordings of these phenomena where they, when they happen.
Red D: And he started playing this recording and you could kind of hear like school children, like singing, but it was like very faint. And as that recording started playing, I walked under a street lamp and I went out and I walk on the street all the time.
Jamie: Oh, dear.
Red D: and um it's never happened before that the lights were going to light up.
Jamie: Oh,
Jamie: oh dear.
Jen: Oh no.
Red D: And this recording was taken by this ghost investigator big at a school that has now been turned into a business. And the people said, like, oh, yeah, when we work here late at night, we can hear children.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: And sometimes it feels like children are brushing past us. And he went there.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: I captured this recording. Anyway, I don't really, um but it was just very strange coincidence that as the recording played, the lights above me went out. And I was like, oh, my God, should I be freaked out?
Red D: And then I carried on walking home.
Jen: timing oh the timing yeah oh would you like me to come and walk you back
Red D: Yeah, the timing, exactly.
Jamie: I mean, I now feel horrific about my walk back through this completely dark 15 metres of garden.
Jamie: I actually really would, yeah.
Red D: Jamie, I would get freaked out. or As a child, I would have definitely been freaked out.
Jamie: I mean, the hair the hair on the back of my head has, you know, of my neck has actually stood up a little bit.
Jen: i'll come and walk you back can i tell you an opposite actually joe i'll save it for offline podcast because it's completely off topic it's not remotely to do with star trek
Red D: That means that was my story, so don't worry.
Jamie: us
Jen: But I have discovered it's Airponics, guys. Airponics Bay is the name.
Red D: ah Thank you.
Jamie: Air what?
Red D: Thank you.
Jen: So we were close, but not quite.
Jamie: Airponics?
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: For what?
Jen: That's the name of the bay that Kes works in with all the plants.
Jamie: The hydroponics bay.
Red D: With plants.
Jen: Airponics. Yeah.
Jamie: Are you sure you don't mean hydroponic?
Red D: Oh, maybe they're not even using water. Maybe it's just air.
Jen: Well, it says converting cargo bay into an Airponics Bay in brackets or Hydroponics Bay. So maybe they use the two words interchangeably, but just why we keep getting confused.
Red D: Oh, yeah.
Jamie: Agroponics, maybe? I don't know.
Jen: No, it literally says here, it's in the Star Trek info.
Jamie: Oh, sorry. Wiki.
Red D: You know, I think, well, I think it's kind of common.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: It's like when you have to think of a word on the spot, well, my brain always loses the word. Like if someone, like, you know, then my brain, well, it doesn't happen to everyone, but I think it's kind of common. I noticed this, that even if I'm not in front of people, but in my brain, I'm like, what was that word again?
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: And I put pressure my brain. I lose the word. Like even when no one is around, it's just in my thoughts.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah,
Red D: I'm like, oh my gosh.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: I get that.
Jen: This is one of the joys of marriage, right? Sometimes that happens and then the other half will know what you are, what word you're looking for.
Red D: Oh, that's very handy.
Jen: Yeah, very handy.
Red D: That's very handy.
Jamie: Yeah. When does that happen from... No, I'm not gonna say that. um
Jen: Yeah, does, you're right there, it does happen more you guessing, guessing what I'm thinking, it's worrying.
Jamie: I know you so well. Right, star player.
Red D: Oh yes, start playing.
Jen: I'm going to go for Tuvok because i do love his point at the end and you can always rely on Tuvok for a wise, thoughtful quote
Red D: Goji.
Jamie: Hmm, nice.
Red D: Love it.
Jamie: Red?
Red D: I am going to go for the actress Jennifer O'Lean. Because I think it's always fun for the actors to go outside their normal scope.
Jamie: nice
Red D: I think she did... I didn't love everything about her performance, but I thought she did change character, basically, b which I think is, yeah, was great.
Jamie: yeah yeah it's pretty impressive uh i would like to go for demos
Red D: Hmm.
Jamie: Because I think he goes from bit part son to effectively taking power well in advance when he would have. He is the puppet master orchestrating Voyager to help him take back power and take advantage of, you know, the end of 200 year old dictator. So well played, sir. You have advanced your position throughout the course of this episode.
Jamie: Prove me wrong.
Jen: I also like to give special mention to Bilala for the swimsuit.
Jamie: Right.
Jen: She's hot!
Red D: Yeah. I don't know why made that noise.
Jamie: On which note? Cue end thing.
Red D: Yes. Well, i don't think anyone minds me I don't think anyone minds being told they're hot.
Jen: Wait before Jenny says anything else on PC.
Jamie: You can't learn about the swimsuit. I want to hear about it.
Red D: Well, i hope not.
Jen: I hope not as well.
Red D: but
Jamie: don't know.
Jen: I mean, I'm not a ah creepy, creepy old guy.
Jamie: I find if there's a bloke who's not randomly shouting at people, you get sort of locked up.
Jen: I think...
Red D: That's correct, Jamie. And Jamie, what did you say?
Jamie: I find, as a bloke, that if you start randomly shouting, you're hot at people on the street, you get locked up.
Jen: Oh, double standards.
Jamie: Untold.
Jen: Gotta love them.
Jamie: i know. The sexist double standard implied there. It's been a pleasure, everyone.
Red D: hit stop and then, great.
