Transcript
Jamie: Let's do it.
Red D: Oh, that's perfect timing, Jamie.
Jamie: That's a loud jingle.
Red D: Yes, that when I hit play or record, all the buttons moved and so I had to remove my cursor to get back to the shingle button.
Jamie: It's okay, it's okay. I acknowledge the hand-eye coordination asks of using a keyboard.
Red D: That is some behind the scenes deep knowledge listeners, in case you're wondering.
Jamie: Using a keyboard needs hand-eye coordination.1 went one And point two, the knowledge is deep.
Red D: I think I remember something happened to my laptop where my hand-eye coordination really seemed to go down and I was sharing a screen it was very hard for me to know that people were watching me.
Jamie: Yeah, I've been meaning to apologize for giving you LSD that time.
Red D: ah But yeah, welcome back guys. Maybe we could start doing the intro while the music is playing.
Jamie: Yeah, especially those 90 of you who listened to this podcast.
Red D: Should we try that?
Jen: Oh, yeah.
Jamie: Some of you apparently from Vietnam.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Get in touch.
Red D: Some of you.
Jamie: We'd love to hear from you.
Red D: Well, very nice. But this week,
Jamie: I mean, we'd be quite worried as we very deliberately made sure that no one can find us through traceable email addresses or anything like that, but we'd still love to hear from you.
Red D: Yes, we would, if you are listening, we would love to hear from you because we can't believe that you exist. So the email is in the show notes. Feel free to reach out.
Jamie: I mean... It's a niche strategy to try and dismiss those few supporters or listeners we may have by calling them fictional. You know, keep them keen by insulting them in the same way that Flight of the Conchords used to insult the rogue unicorns that were the issues in the famous Kiwi acapella flunk tune issues.
Jen: oh, the jingle's coming back.
Jen: We love the jingle so much.
Red D: I'm sorry, this is a new, sorry sorry to interrupt you Jamie, but this seems to be like a new feature of Zencast, a platform, which is like, it will just repeat it on repeat.
Jamie: This is my turn.
Jamie: I think we should go with it. We get soundtrack effects as well. And, you know, we don't get editing, so we may as well get soundtrack.
Red D: That's true. yeah But sorry, Jamie, you were saying?
Jamie: i would I think I was applauding your reverse psychological tactic of dismissing our viewers as fictional in a bid to try and get them to prove their non-fictional existential qualities.
Red D: kind of a weird reverse psychology. I don't believe you exist, so to prove you exist...
Jamie: So is all reverse psychology. So is all reverse psychology. Except in this instance it's I don't believe you exist, so prove to you to me you exist, but I won't give you any out of avenue to be able to prove to me you exist.
Red D: Oh, there is an avenue. There is an avenue.
Jamie: Is there? Is there?
Red D: In the show notes, there's an email that they can reach out to.
Jamie: That's outrageous!
Red D: There is. It's
Jamie: I never signed up to be contactable by humans.
Red D: not your personal email. but it ah
Jamie: May as well be outrageous!
Jen: And we haven't had any, you know, death death threats or, you know, for, you know, dissing a really popular Star Trek episode or anything.
Jamie: What are you, Peter Thiel?
Jamie: Gathering my personal data?
Jen: I'm amazed.
Red D: Yeah, so again, if you're real and listening, please reach out. And if you're a new listener, we watch a new episode of Star Trek Voyager every two weeks or so.
Red D: Not really strict on that schedule, but we're going in chronological order. And now we're in season three.
Jamie: Yeah. If on the other way you're a way of harvesting data about what folk in art society do and listen to for popular culture and entertainment, I would say that this is probably a bit of a dark alleyway for you.
Red D: Uh,
Red D: Okay, so let me get this going. ah It's season three, episode 14, Alter Ego, we're talking about this week. And now my phone has gone into dark mode or black mode, so hopefully I can still read everything.
Jamie: Oh no!
Red D: um But yes, Jamie, are you ready to give us your one minute summary? This is one of the highlights.
Jamie: I really was, but i mean this is just the perfect episode for, frankly, a description that is just so against what this character is about that I was tempted just to give the one line to what gets his riz on.
Jamie: But, sorry, someone has made an ill face as though this was not entertaining. By riz, I just mean you know makes himself attractive as opposed to anything disturbing. So my one-minute summary is... The intrepid crew of the Voyager find themselves in an unfamiliar, or is it unfamiliar, situation when one of their crew turns to Tuvok for advice about how to handle affairs of a personal nature.
Jamie: These affairs you ask? His infatuation and emotional love affair with a hologram in an entertainment program called Mirena.
Jamie: Now strangely enough, this holoprogram was set up by Neelix, so there's always a Neelix link in there when things are going to mischief.
Red D: Bye. there
Jamie: But in amongst various showpiece scenes, like a Hawaiian-themed party at which Mr Tuvok is in attendance, events take a darker turn when it transpires that this hologram may not be all it seems.
Red D: Very nice, Jamie. Perfect. Only one question. Are you protecting the anonymous anonymity and non amenity shahar of the in love character on purpose or can we reveal who that was?
Jamie: I mean, I'd love to see how we did this if I said that you can't reveal who it was. So I'm going say you can't reveal it. No, no one can say who it is. Our fictional listeners have to tell us who it is by the end of this episode, if they can work it out.
Red D: Pop quiz.
Jamie: No, no, of course you can.
Red D: Shame poor Harry Kim classic Harry Kim.
Jamie: Yeah, I know, know.
Red D: ah
Jamie: It's very surprising that he can't find a human partner given you know his status as sixth most sexy human at some stage in the 90s.
Red D: Number one.
Jamie: Was he number one? Number one most sexy human and not counting androids either.
Red D: Well, you was certainly in some people magazine list. Um, but yeah, thank you, Jamie.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: That was great. On to initial reactions, Jenny, Do you want to kick us off with some reactions, emotions, revulsions? Oh, she's
Jamie: News. Oh, we may not be able to hear you.
Jamie: Yeah, we can't hear you.
Red D: just
Jen: Ah, sorry, sorry, mute.
Jamie: Oh, now we can. Now we can. Have you been saying things?
Jen: i I did the, yeah, I did the classic thing of, you know, sorry, I was on mute that everyone's sick of hearing a fro from all their COVID Zoom calls.
Jamie: Because, like...
Jamie: Oh, we said things before. I'm sorry. We didn't know.
Jen: I'm so sorry. um Yeah, my initial reaction was, the title of this confused me a bit. It said alter ego. And I thought, oh, this is gonna be one of those ones where, you know, aye like the one where Kez turns into some maniacal dictator.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Jen: or you know someone has some kind of massive change of personality because they've been invaded by an alien or something um and then I was pleasantly surprised because it turned out it's this one which is actually quite fun and light-hearted and funny and a bit silly um so initial reaction I have a question about initial reactions do you guys do this bit as in initial reaction on watching the whole episode for the first time or initial reaction on like the opening.
Jamie: Now that's a very, very interesting question. I get entirely all gives me more precatious line.
Red D: Coming from the... Yes, can i also just say, coming from the designer of the segment, but I would say I kind of... um Sometimes my initial reaction to the episode overall is related to my initial reactions watching it, but it can't be, if that makes sense.
Jen: Yeah, yeah.
Red D: But...
Jen: But as to the overall,
Red D: Yes.
Jen: <unk> episode.
Red D: That's how I've been thinking about it.
Jen: Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is way late in the game to be asking this question, but it only really just occurred to me.
Red D: The more behind the scenes. The more behind the scenes.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Jen: i mean, yeah, because i I think it occurs to me because usually i do it based on like the early opening scenes and I'm thinking it's the initial reactions early and on in the episode, but actually this time I didn't. I'm not sure I had an initial reaction to the early early scenes. So um initial reactions at the end of the episode were a Yeah, I quite liked it It had some interesting themes about loneliness and, you know, how to address that and some excellent Tuvok quotes and some comedy and it was all quite lighthearted and bit silly.
Jen: So I liked it.
Red D: Yeah, maybe it's more overall impression before we get into the detail, you know, I guess. But yeah. And very good. Jamie, initial reactions or overall impressions?
Jamie: it's good question. Tuvok, you silver-tongued devil you. It was one of my reactions. um
Jamie: I mean, I have a number that I've sort of committed there, but I i generally found this a more light-hearted and enjoyable episode. um i enjoyed seeing a little bit of Tom Paris being a saving grace as opposed to escape grace as well.
Jen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Red D: very good yeah you'll have to remind me about that maybe in the detail or we'll see maybe it'll come back to me um my initial reaction is did I write anything down I don't um I think my initial reaction was like I didn't remember the episode 40 I was like oh no I hope Tuvok doesn't like
Jamie: well hmm
Jamie: sister
Red D: you know, stray from his moral compass or whatever.
Jamie: isn
Red D: But in the end, that's not really what the episode was about. But that was my initial reaction. Now, I do have a one cool thing question. So even though it's not anything about this episode, but i
Jamie: Ooh.
Jen: Oh, fun.
Jamie: Ooh. Ooh. Sorry, we've got to build the Atmos.
Jen: Ooh. Drum roll.
Jamie: Ooh.
Jen: Hmm.
Red D: Well, this is the first year I've ever learned about the lyric.
Jamie: Ooh. Sorry, I just needed to get that out of my system. Carry on.
Red D: Yeah, well done.
Jamie: Thank you for appreciation.
Red D: I don't know how pronounce it. Lyrid, Lyrid Meteor Shower. That apparently happens every year around this time. But I was curious if you managed to see any of the meteors that are rushing past Earth from your vantage point more in the countryside.
Red D: Because I think last night was the peak, but you still got a chance if you didn't see it.
Jamie: I did not and I did look at the night sky last night.
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: what' the go of this
Jen: I have tried to keep track of them because they, they do, there are a few that seem to happen, especially now we're out in the countryside a bit and it seems they always happen when it's cloudy. It's so frustrating.
Red D: Oh, Mark, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jen: Um, but it's very useful to know red because we will, I think tonight is very clear. so maybe I'll go have a look. We did see, um, I guess it was just a shooting star really, but, um, when we were driving back from London out into Surrey one time in the car from the car, we saw the shooting star.
Red D: Oh, that's so... Oh.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Oh.
Jen: That was really nice.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Um, But no, wait, have you seen any?
Red D: No, because, I mean, A, this was this episode did revolve a bit around inverse nebula, so that reminded me, you know, um that they were like kind of very intrigued with this beautiful nebula.
Red D: And then, yes, I had read about on the news yesterday. So when I got home last night around nearly 10 o'clock, I went up and stood for like 10 minutes and i called on the top floor to see if I could see anything. And then I kept looking outside my window before I went to bed. And then I thought, you know, sometimes I wake up at two in the morning and that was actually when you would be able to see the most. I thought, if I wake up, I'll leave my curtains open and then I'll i'll remember to look up. I probably had the best night's sleep of my life and woke up at seven when my alarm went off. So that didn't happen.
Jen: oh shame
Red D: So, but I just thought you probably have a better chance of seeing them than I do. But yeah.
Jamie: we' we've not seen them yet but we may we may try this evening
Jen: not not yet oh yeah i will have look tonight i would love to see some i've never actually seen a meteor shower and uh we've seen the northern lights from our garden which that that that has been on my list forever
Red D: Yes, that's why i asked you because I'm a very, already very jealous about that.
Jamie: Yeah, from south of London, very northern.
Red D: Oh, so jealous. So many people have seen them but not me. Okay, move on. So onto our discussion. Jenny, do you want to kick us off on your first point?
Jen: Okay, I don think I'm gonna do mine backwards um because I think I had a lot more real thoughts, if that makes sense.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Okay.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: But I started out with them not not actual, nothing very interesting, just random comments.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: So I think I'll start the book. um Yeah, I kind of half mentioned it, but I really thought this episode, well, actually not just the title from the title, but also I expected this episode to go in a slightly different direction to the one it did.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: not just from the title, but then the first half of it, um i thought it was going one of these where an alien has taken over Harry and is somehow coercing him or he's having some kind of mind altering substance or um or, you know, alien drug induced madness.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: I don't know. um And then it turned out to go a completely different direction because it was nothing to do with Harry. he He was in fact genuinely feeling like he was in love at first sight. And it was all about this alien that then, you know, hooked in Tuvok.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: um And then it turns out she, you know, had this really interesting backstory. So that that was all really interesting the second half. But it did feel a bit like there were sort two sections to this episode and they were slightly apart.
Red D: Yeah, yeah.
Jen: And also... I just feel like maybe the Harry storyline, it didn't feel, it left left a bit unexped unexplained to me because it seems quite random that Harry fell in love with this holodeck character.
Jen: And also that...
Jamie: I mean, she was very seductive.
Red D: Interesting, interesting.
Jen: But also that she attracted both Tuvok and Harry. That's quite a
Red D: Well, I mean, how attracted was Tuvok? I think this is a good question. Maybe it's a deep question for us to ghost bang.
Jamie: Hugely so.
Red D: But he like deleted her in the blink of an eye.
Jamie: Yeah, but that wasn't because he wasn't attracted to her. That's because he realised he was.
Red D: Yes, that's fair. That's fair.
Jamie: Yeah. Don't try and put Tuvok on this pedestal. like welcome You know, I mean, because a it's incorrect and B, it's speciesist.
Red D: Tuvok is on a pedestal and will never be removed.
Jen: no
Jen: but red is he's more on a pedestal if he was very attracted to her because he did all the correct morally principled things even though he had feelings
Jamie: I'd have no time to.
Jamie: Don't try and keep him on this pedestal just because he's Vulcan and spills emotions.
Red D: He certainly me found it intriguing. That's for sure.
Jamie: Oh yeah, intriguing.
Red D: lets um
Jen: they had a connection shall we say
Red D: A connection.
Jamie: These are all things that sound like a preamble to an affair.
Red D: Well...
Red D: ah An emotional affair. An emotional affair, anyway.
Jamie: The physical connection.
Red D: oh um Yeah, it was definitely an episode of, like, two halves or one half a twist and then... Jonakoski- or something they they were quite disconnected I think you're right, but.
Red D: Anna Jonakoski- it's a game for two hours.
Jamie: it's game of two halves
Red D: Anna Jonakoski- But it's still enjoyable, but as you maybe it was on purpose, a bit of a red herring, I wonder from like the writers perspective.
Jen: I bet it was.
Jamie: maybe maybe I had changed direction multiple times by the time the fat lady sung so I've just decided the cliches win podcasts I'm just coming up with the sporting cliches that I can but yeah
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: Well, great. Uh, Jamie, what's the first, your first, uh, favorite point or,
Jamie: So i'm I'm actually going with something far more lighthearted, and which actually reminded me of a moment that I absolutely loved in a different Star Trek publication.
Jamie: I don't suppose you guys remember Into Darkness, the first recent Star Trek movie. There's a moment in which Mr.
Jen: always
Jamie: Chekhov, basically the first time they're going off, he's this sort of young ensign and he's supposed to be a genius level intellect. and the captain says, punch it and hits it.
Jamie: And it just goes absolutely nowhere. He tries again and goes nowhere. And the captain just turns to him goes, is the parking brake on, Mr. Chekhov? and it sort of surreptitiously takes it off.
Jamie: But I really enjoy the moment at the start where Jane Loi casually goes, just back at up 2,000 kilometres to Tom Paris to keep them safe from the nebula in a similar sort of way, just casually as though they're reversing into a space on a pedestrian street to park.
Jamie: So I very much enjoyed that.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Red D: It's like ah the mundane, but on a gigantic scale, guess.
Jamie: Is the mundane still mundane if it's enormous?
Red D: Yeah, exactly. um Nice. Let me see what I have. I mean, I think I had mostly frivolous points.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: But I did love, I guess, you know, these episodes are like, I don't know, quite old now.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: 20, 30. I'm not keeping track. I refuse to keep track.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: But, you know, the kind of one of the opening scenes, I guess, after the credits, whatever, is Harry has come to Tuvok to explain that he wants to dampen his emotions, which is, I think, something that I could relate to, especially when you have a serious crush like that.
Red D: like, I just wanted this to go away. And there was, you know, the discussion is, had a couple of funny parts, but I did love Tuvok's line, you're in love with the computer subroutine.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: um But it did make me think about what we call nowadays, I guess, parasocial relationships.
Jen: Thank you.
Red D: I mean, obviously it's common to have a crush and it's probably common to, have a crush on like a celebrity and things like that or more. But um these kind of parasocial relationships where where you are seeing influences all the time in real life, I mean, not in real life, but on a daily basis, whatever.
Red D: And you can follow all the content and think you, not think that you're friends with them, but you're closer to them them than a normal celebrity, let's say.
Jamie: Yeah, well, I would say the extreme of that is for actually thinking that and feeling like they are.
Red D: Yeah, because you know them so well, but it's a one way, one way.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: um So this is not exactly a parasocial relationship, but he is interacting with someone, so you can understand how it's hard for your brain to distinguish that this is a computer versus a person, I guess.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: So I had some some totally understood, or i don't want to totally understood, but I had some empathy for Harry Kim's, of the Harry Kim character in this situation.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm...
Red D: And also they are on that holodeck where no one's ever wearing any clothes, so i mean, it's hardly to a surprise.
Jamie: Yes, and I will just sort of make a point about that later on, but, um... Yeah, it doesn't feel quite like a parrot. Well, depends on if a hologram can have feelings, I guess.
Red D: I guess the hologram doesn't have feelings. That's what he said. She can never feel for me the way I do for her. So...
Jamie: And yet the Doctor feels things, doesn't he?
Red D: That's true. But his his poor programming is so overloaded with so many subroutines. Yeah. But yeah, I just thought that was...
Red D: Just like thinking about it in what, I guess, terms that people use now. But like the concepts have been around for a long time.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: And probably even before Star Trek.
Jamie: Yeah. That's fine.
Jen: Yeah, hadn't really considered it that way. I think it, I mean, to an old fogey like me, who doesn't know much about influences, I liken it to, you know, when you're really familiar and really love an old TV programme, like Voyager, I guess, um or, you know, Friends or something like that, and you feel you really know those characters really well, you're so familiar with them.
Jamie: What was that?
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: It must be quite a shock to...
Jamie: What
Jen: see them in real life, the actors.
Red D: Yes, i think that was a huge shock before we discovered that actors are not the characters they play on TV.
Jen: Yes, exactly, exactly.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: You feel like you know them, but you don't remotely know them.
Red D: yeah Yes, yes.
Jamie: was that?
Jen: And they know you the less. So it's really weird story.
Jamie: What was that?
Red D: but That's a good point. At least I think nowadays it's easier to know that an actor is not the character because you see a bit more behind the scenes if you're interested in a show and stuff.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah.
Red D: But yes, I think that was for me growing up as a kid, the biggest disappointment all the time.
Jen: Thank you.
Jamie: Aww.
Red D: What? How are they? Why are they out there drinking, drugging and rock and roll? They should be a moral upstanding character like the person they play at this TV show.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. Bakio Hare was a real disappointment in real life when i met him
Red D: who
Jamie: Bakio Hare. Oh, I forgot, you don't know who Bakio- you haven't- oh.
Red D: Sorry sorry.
Jamie: No man, you need to watch umm Captain Bucky O'Hare. Best cartoon ever.
Red D: a cartoon. Interesting. um Back to you Jenny.
Jamie: But like Jessica Rabbit in that respect.
Red D: okay
Jamie: Also disappointing.
Jen: Oh me again okay well I think I'm gonna go with um basically I'm sure we're all going to be making this point a lot but just a lot of great two voc agreements really enjoyed them um and I have to highlight the one particular comedic two voc moment which I'm sure you guys noticed too when Nelix tells him he that he forgot to RSVP and he says that was not an oversight I assure you
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
Jamie: that' not what but um
Jen: I mean, that is, yeah, a great line. I feel like I need to use that more when I'm invited to stuff I don't want to go to
Red D: Yeah, Tuvok Day was very much channeling... um and like i don't know how to say this to my two British friends, but channeling a certain British quality, let's say.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: but
Jamie: That's okay. we We get that we're relationship and romance
Red D: So you can definitely use that line, Jamie, more often.
Jen: i just
Red D: Embrace your heritage.
Jen: I just I also love that it kind of it it cuts you know when someone's trying to pressure you into going intogo something and um you know they're sort like oh so you know you haven't let me know you know you're available and and you can you can just respond with you're right I haven't let you know you know that's it you know it's that kind of response but no response exactly
Jamie: a great line. Yeah.
Jamie: It's a great line.
Red D: And that is the only answer you need. You're like, oh.
Jamie: Yeah, and you shall have no more.
Red D: ah ah Yeah, so many good lines. As I said before, I wish I could have the memory to just extract lines from Star Trek Voyager and live my life only those lines.
Jamie: Nonsense.
Red D: I'd be so much more successful. Anyway, Jamie, over to you.
Jamie: nonsense
Jamie: I think I'm going to jump in the opposite end of the pool, right? So I would like to just talk about the fact that the start of the episode positions this, and it's clear that this is pre you know things like AI and also Tinder, like the fact that someone falling for a hologram is a new and embarrassing and weird and freaky thing.
Jamie: Like how Kim talks about it in that way. I'm just like, come on, like, no one has ever fallen for a hollow emotionally or um not emotionally before. Like, who feels that way?
Red D: Yeah, yeah. yeah
Jamie: And I was like, thank heavens for Tom just, you know, he was like, don't you don't need act like this is a big thing. Just stick to your routine and that's how you get through it. Bring a bit of worldliness to it.
Jamie: I was also sort reminded of an episode of The Orville with, i think it was Seth Green, in which the whole trope is that... ah basically the ship gets hijacked when someone buys a um ah porno program for the holodeck.
Jamie: And basically I was just reminded of that episode of Oracle and Seth Green's particularly smutty sense of humour by the fact that Kim was acting like no one does this or it doesn't happen to anyone.
Red D: But very funny.
Red D: He did seem overly embarrassed for something that must happen all the time. We know it even happens to Janeway. Like...
Jamie: she falls in love with, does she?
Jen: and
Jamie: With hologram characters.
Red D: I mean, no spoilers, but yeah. So...
Jamie: Well, okay, noted.
Jen: Oh yes, the Irish.
Red D: The Irish.
Jamie: D'Arsh.
Red D: ah
Jen: yeah
Jamie: Okay.
Red D: Hard to resist the Irish.
Jamie: Well, anyway.
Red D: But he, yeah, maybe it's because he's younger or he feels like he should be able to control his emotions more or because he's...
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Maybe it's just embarrassed because he's fallen in love with a computer game.
Jen: I mean, you would be embarrassed, wouldn't you?
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: I would be embarrassed. Even if it had happened to a girl.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: That's true. You're like, oh I've not done that thing that everyone does that I thought I was smart enough not to do.
Jen: Yeah, it makes you more embarrassing in a way.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: Hmm.
Red D: Yeah, that's true.
Jamie: Yeah. It's like cracking that respect.
Red D: Um...
Red D: um Yeah, so but I did like Tom. he was more... don't know what the word is.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: i think you used it already, but grounded or realistic. about It's pretty natural, even if you don't want it to happen.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: um Nice. So I did... um I guess following on from that a little bit is when he does come and say he's in love with this woman, Mariana, that he's met on the holodeck, And when, like, Tuvok is quizzing him and about his symptoms and how long they've lasted and all this kind of stuff, and you find it's only been a few days, which i was like, oh, Harry.
Jen: Thank you.
Red D: That's quite fast to fall in love with someone. But I did like the Vulcan term of the engulfment. I mean, there were quite a few terms sprinkled into the episode, none of the others of which I could catch.
Jamie: were quite negative as well when literally translated, weren't they?
Red D: Hmm? Hmm?
Jamie: They were quite negative when literally translated. I mean...
Red D: Very anti-love at first sight for sure.
Jamie: Well, I love that first sex sounds super interesting but the engulfment.
Red D: big off And then like, yeah, all the other symptoms, which was just entertaining. But I think we've all been there. Maybe if we reflect on our youth.
Jamie: Tuvok hasn't.
Red D: Two our cousin. and When I said we, I meant people in real life on this shop call. I don't know.
Jamie: I will not have them marginalised. the stars of this podcast, not us, just because, you know, they happen to be fictional. This podcast wouldn't happen without them.
Red D: But I'm just thinking it's like when I was like 13 and going on like summer camp, which lasted three days. I'm sure I came back in love with someone I met on that camp. I mean, I was 13, but exactly, exactly.
Jamie: That was what you went to summer camp for. It's what I go to school for, even though it isn't real.
Red D: But...
Jen: you know I'm not sure
Jamie: Sorry, I'm busted, sorry.
Jen: if I'm not sure I ever could say that I've experienced that you know because there were certainly there were certainly people who I found immediately attractive when I was younger but I was never under any illusion that I had fallen in love with them on first sight I was always very
Red D: Oh.
Jamie: Oh.
Red D: Not...
Red D: Yes, yes. I mean, that's fair. and When I say that, I mean, couldn't stop thinking about them when I came back from summer camp, but probably because I was attracted to them, not for any other reason.
Red D: You know, oh I thought, oh, they were fun or something, but yeah.
Jen: Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, I remember, yes, being, I mean, the main reason I could tell that I was one attractive when I was younger was just that I was, this is probably barely common, just a bit of an idiot around, like really, ne you know, and you're really nervous and you can't like, you have nothing to say, you can't think of anything to say, you act like an idiot.
Red D: Yeah.
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: Like now, when you just... Well, you just froze then as you were saying that, which was hilarious.
Jen: Yeah, reliving it as I tell you about it.
Red D: ah
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: It's
Red D: Blank brain symptom.
Jen: I even got that with Jamie.
Red D: ah Oh, that's cute.
Jen: Back in the day.
Red D: That's cute.
Jamie: As a boy, of course, I'm programmed to function even when I have blank for brain syndrome. Ogo, I was able to cover it through the metier of just continuing to talk absolute nonsense.
Red D: That is a fascinating insight. that's like
Jen: is this where? This is why it worked out so well, because i and I was in such a nervous state that I didn't notice that what was coming out of his mouth was absolute nonsense. So we were the perfect couple.
Jamie: I've been slightly trained by toxic masculinity that I have to keep out a constant air of patter the entire time. So even though I've got blank brain, I still come out with nonsense. So it works.
Red D: It's funny that like two people that are not operating at their prime mentally can maybe just move past that and then fall in love.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: Nice.
Red D: ah
Jen: does it give give give you hope rent that is
Red D: Yeah. i It's just funny because you're like oh, I'm so self-conscious because I'm not saying anything.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: I'm like, I'm self-conscious because i'm saying too much and neither of you are noticing those things about each other.
Jen: yeah Well, probably the alcohol has lot to do with it.
Red D: Ah, yes.
Jamie: Why
Red D: The lubricant of love. Yeah.
Jamie: do we have to use that L word?
Red D: ah lupbricate lubricate lubricate Anyway.
Jamie: Robbie?
Red D: I'm sorry.
Jamie: Robbie?
Red D: Sorry. Oh, dear.
Jamie: What do you feel if I just started randomly shouting lube at some stage in this podcast?
Red D: Anyway.
Red D: Yes, I'm sorry. i My brain was... It took me a second. I apologize.
Jamie: if If you'd been conditioned by toxic masculinity just to be able to keep coming out with nonsense, you'd have been able to tell that out.
Jen: where Were you, was your brain?
Red D: No, my brain was just like, thought that was a poetic thing to say. Because it was an alliteration. And so... ah
Jamie: I mean, throw saying it again just so that we get a feel for it, but i don't think it is.
Red D: No, it's good.
Jen: no no no, no.
Red D: rockca in
Jen: I was going to say, clearly Red, you were also reliving a certain moment with a certain young man when you were younger and had forgotten that you were repeatedly using this word.
Red D: Maybe.
Red D: Maybe.
Jamie: I'm just kidding.
Red D: And on that, let's...
Jamie: That is not the interpretation. Sorry. I'm so sorry.
Red D: So, back to you, Jenny.
Jen: Oh, me again already. My goodness. Okay. I have a question. What do you think hydrosaline is?
Red D: Ah, great question.
Jamie: Well, let's talk about what we know about it. It feels like you're on top of something that's an illusion on top of something else that's an illusion and there's water involved. So as far as I'm concerned, this could be waterboarding.
Jamie: It's the way that described way that she described it.
Red D: Torture.
Jen: they seem They seem to enjoy it though, as far as I can tell. so
Jamie: don't mean it. Hang on, what do you guys think I mean when I say waterboarding?
Jen: Torture.
Red D: The torture? her
Jamie: Oh no, I meant like, you know, some form of board sport on surfboard or something.
Jen: Oh, wakeboarding.
Red D: Or like my na- upstairs-
Jamie: why would you ever think torture? You sick-minded... No, I did originally mean that.
Jen: That's what waterboarding is.
Jamie: I did originally mean that, but I was just trying to mess with your heads. Sorry.
Red D: AKA my na- my neighbors upstairs having a leak in their cistern and just hearing running water for hours and hours and end is also a form of- anyway, that problem is solved.
Jamie: Sorry.
Jamie: No, i think that's Chinese water torture as opposed the water to waterboarding.
Jen: Oh, God. good
Red D: Yeah, a nightmare. But that's it.
Jamie: Anyway, let's let's move this on.
Red D: Well, I did a quick Google and um it is just a type of sailing, but I guess the key thing is that the Hydro-Sailing uses underwater wing-like foils to lift a sailboat's hull completely out of the water.
Red D: So, um looks like you can do it like one person, so a bit more.
Jamie: Yeah. And does it does it say how stressful it is is on the calves? Yeah.
Red D: Probably a lot of, you are standing, so you have to use your calves, I guess.
Jamie: I just want to find out if the the knot that's a nut is a realistic prospect.
Jen: Oh it's like windsurfing.
Red D: Oh yes, I see. Sorry.
Jamie: or you know I want to know how the hologram put a knot the size of a nut in her leg just to attract Harry Kim.
Red D: ah What's funny is I'm reading this book, which I'm not sure everyone loves, but I think I hate all new books. So, uh, Dark Wild Shore, where they mentioned a hydrophone and I was like, what is a hydrophone?
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: um So hydro sailing and hydro phone in the same day, but almost. I think a hydro phone is something use to record sounds underwater from the context of the book, but I never Googled it.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: like hydro sailing, which I just Googled. Anyway.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: um
Jen: I kind of had in mind that it was some kind of hoverboard sailing.
Red D: I think that's a more correct ah perception because I think if you're doing it, I just saw some pictures now, like a single hydro sail, you would be lifted out, your board is like lifted quite far out of the water.
Jen: so
Red D: Like, it's just the, what's that, what's the thing called that I just said? The fin that's barely keeping, can't kill with the water.
Jamie: you know Kiel?
Red D: So yeah, I think it is a bit like that.
Jamie: Hydra Falls?
Jen: So is this, hang on, is this an invented Star Trek? Is this actually, is oh my goodness.
Red D: No, it's a real thing.
Jamie: ah fun
Red D: From an Italian, apparently.
Jen: I'm gonna have to giggle it.
Jamie: and
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: And even if it was just a soul was invent Star Trek inventor thing back there, you can get hoverboards and everything now.
Red D: True. It's like a water hoverboard, but there's no engine.
Jen: Fascinating.
Jamie: Noted.
Red D: Good question, Jenny. i was also curious and didn't bother to look it up earlier, but now we know.
Jamie: Yes. Yes.
Jen: Well, I was also just curious in what you guys had to been imagining it was as well, if you didn't already know.
Red D: I imagine that it was like some kind of sailing thing, but a bit more maybe intense because you know what they say, like if you do something a bit more adrenaline-y, it makes you attracted to the person that you do it with.
Red D: So like if you go on a first date and take a roller coaster, you might have more intense feelings for that person because you've done that.
Jen: Oh, yes.
Red D: Apparently, maybe that research is outdated now, but it kind of, oh yes, I do know the movie.
Jen: I feel like that was a line in Speed, you know movie.
Jen: There's some kind of comedy line where Sandra Bullock says to whoever it is at the end. You know that romantic attachments vaunt and, you know, dramatic situations never last.
Red D: Oh yes.
Jamie: hmm uh no
Jen: Something like that.
Red D: Yes, yes, that's right.
Jen: Paraphrasing.
Red D: Nice. Good memory, guys. Let me remember these things. um Great. Over to you, Jamie. No, wait, who just went?
Jamie: well i
Red D: Me. No, Jamie.
Jen: Yeah, me.
Red D: Sorry. I didn't write my tick down.
Jen: see
Red D: Sorry. I have to do my tick. Now to you, Jamie.
Jamie: no well i a I want to talk about something and it goes back to my obsession with you know due process and and securitare on Voyager.
Jamie: Can we talk about the fact that Voyager apparently gets entirely hijacked by someone who is, to all intents and purposes, geotourism artefact maintenance technician and a geotourism
Jen: Thank you.
Jamie: maintenance technician manages to hack military grade Starfleet software. Can we talk about that? I mean, in sort move heads have to roll about the Cabinet Office here. I think someone should have serious, serious questions for the the head of CyberSec on Voyager because, you know, that's effectively the that's the equivalent of me going down to Chessington World of Adventures and someone managing to hijack my car through radio who works in one of the stalls there.
Red D: analogy. I think that's...
Red D: i think that's
Jamie: How do we feel about CyberSec performance on Voyager, team?
Jen: I think it's very realistic because right I'm likening this to hackers in the modern day and age and you're always hearing about hackers getting into the US military system and you know even in the UK like you know confidential government data.
Jamie: o
Jamie: And actually there there is a parallel, there's such a parallel. It's a seduction thing. This this is the sort of fictional prince who just needs $100 to unlock the account that has millions of dollars in which he'll share with you and also for romance.
Jen: Exactly.
Red D: Well, I would say, no, no I,
Jamie: We're all comfortable with that. We don't feel like there's leadership questions around Janeway's performance in in running this sort of tight ship.
Red D: I have a few thoughts, but I guess they are informed by very recent events. So before, um let's say AI, no, just before generate, generate,
Jamie: We need sign an NDA to continue this conversation.
Red D: generative AI. But I would say this woman was alone all the time, had nothing better to do, so strong motivation. And B, I'm assuming in 200 years has even better, well, I guess doesn't really make sense if you put it like this, but I've been coding a lot of stuff with Claude and stuff, and I could just do stuff I could never do before. So if you have good technology to hand,
Red D: um And there was some announcement recently with some company coming up with Mythos, which will uncover every security hole and every app and every whatever, probably a bit of an exaggeration.
Red D: But um I think if you'd asked this question a few months ago, it would have been like very unrealistic. Now you ask I'd be like, oh, seems possible that you could do this.
Jamie: Oh, wow. Okay.
Red D: I guess it depends on what um slope of the AI innovation curve into 2400.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: There are, I don't know.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: Yeah,
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Plus, you know, they're in the Delta Quadrant. They've never explored this. None of Starfleet have. So for all they know, they they could be very advanced aliens.
Red D: yeah that's very true. They could have totally different. ah Yeah, that's a very good point.
Red D: Jamie, did you want to finish that thought up? are you accepting about?
Jamie: Well, no, I mean, we we effectively did because, you know, my question was, are the hosts of intergalactic geotourism artifacts specialists in geology maintenance and or holographic seduction techers?
Jamie: And also, how does a tourist attraction maintenance technician hack military-grade Starfleet's tech?
Red D: Mate, tourist.
Jamie: But I think we've had answers to both of those, both in and out of the episode. So, no, I'm passing the baton on.
Red D: okay let's see what i have um a kind of okay jamie i have a little bit of a question for you well i'm gonna refer back to ah a quote from earlier ah two words that came out of your mouth um i was wondering if uh
Jamie: I deny all accusations.
Jamie: I wasn't in the room at the time. I have no memory of those events.
Jen: Thank you.
Red D: you thought that perhaps when you first met Mariana, um if your thought was, oh, <unk> does Harry Kim have a thing for older women? Because I think there is a bit of an age gap there. But then Jamie earlier said she was very seductive. So I would like to hear but of your thoughts, but especially Jamie's on this point.
Jamie: Gee, just pick on the one hetero male in the room. Cool.
Red D: Yes, you're my insight into that world.
Jamie: her
Red D: Thank you.
Jamie: um I mean, I'm going to answer the question number four with a yes. He does. It's not a question mark, um clearly. ah But I think the way in which she acts, it's not about her looks. It's the way in which she acts. It's very seductive.
Jamie: I mean, you know, yes.
Red D: As someone who would like to learn how to be more seductive, never going to happen, what are the top three points that I could replicate from her performance?
Jamie: You should claim to have a knot the size of a nut in your calf after running and get someone to probe it to see if they can do something about it. You should also spend 200 years as a geo-maintenance technician in the Delta Quadrant because I gather they get up to some stuff out there.
Red D: Okay.
Jamie: Rumour has it. um Is it a genuine question or like...
Red D: They're genuinely, I'm being genuine.
Jamie: Well, I mean, her body language and the way in which she physically interacts socially is completely, completely effectively a way of signalling that she is attracted to someone, but also putting herself in physical contact with them in such a way that, you know, one gathers probably would be attractive or seductive if you're on the receiving end of it in a certain way.
Red D: Yeah, that's... It's not to say that I didn't... Couldn't tell that she was...
Jen: Thank you.
Red D: I mean, I did think she was seductive, but I was just curious from your perspective, what were the the key points? But yeah.
Jamie: I mean, what would you have said were her seductive behaviours or qualities?
Red D: Yeah, her body language... or Shaw, but also her like, I guess, interest and insights in others, I guess they feel seen by her comments.
Jamie: But that's different to seductiveness, I think. That's something that makes you attractive, but it's not seductive behaviour.
Red D: That's true. That's true. Ah, you live and you learn. but That was very interesting. Jenny, you've been very quiet. No.
Jamie: i thought
Jen: yeah i'm listening and thinking and no i'm considering i i mean i think there's an element of you know she's and a very attractive woman in skimpy clothing that anyone in that scenario who is then being quite touchy-feely and smiling and looking into the eyes of the person i think all that is probably enough to be to be
Jamie: disgusted with my views of what's seductive. They're going to get taken and told very, very sternly.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah, and that's quite seductive.
Red D: smiling, looking into the eyes, two things I've never done. That is... Oh yes. Yes. ah
Jamie: It's a bit weird that we're doing this whole podcast and you'll look at you're doing it with the back of your head to the screen.
Jen: Yeah, like, here we go, who go Red?
Jamie: All right.
Jen: I mean, sorry if you list if there's any listeners, you can't see this, but who go like, oh Red, that is so interesting. Oh, tell me more.
Jamie: Yeah. Oh, what you're unique.
Red D: ah yes yes
Jamie: I feel such a connection to you while, you know, touching you on the chest. That is.
Jen: and go to You gotta do the eyes.
Jamie: The eyes, look me in the eyes, look me in the eyes.
Jen: Like.
Jamie: That also is personal.
Red D: Now that's a reference I do know.
Jamie: Yeah. The eyes, the eyes, the eyes, the face, not the eyes, the face, not the face, the eyes.
Red D: Look into the eyes, look into the b eyes, un around the eyes, into the eyes.
Jen: I mean, I have to say there, Red, I did have the thought about being quite surprised when I first saw her.
Jamie: Yeah, I was expecting her to be younger.
Jen: I did imagine someone younger.
Jamie: She's not like Deluxe's usual stable.
Jen: Yeah. Someone. um Yeah. But then I thought, actually, that's quite a good choice because he has dated and you know, been interested in women before that we've seen who are his age.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And this is like a real intensity, unusual, a feeling so it would make sense that it's someone with with something different and age can be a you know potentially different thing that he's fallen for because you know maybe she has a lot more i don't know wisdom than the past girls i something experience maturity because he's like 150.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: That's true.
Red D: Yeah.
Red D: I mean, she was very... Yeah, she had a presence. She held herself a certain way, for sure. And I guess it also then made more sense if Tuvok had an attraction to her. Because I think he needs an equal...
Red D: intellectually yeah yes 150 so but yeah um great so back to you jenny how are your points going there
Jen: Well, where am I think I have two left. So, first two.
Red D: great
Jen: Oh, poor Tuvok. Poor, poor Tuvok. Even in future enlightened Star Trek world, there is still obligatory enforced fun at work. it's This is unacceptable, guys.
Red D: Yes, yes, yes.
Jen: The worst yeah introvert discrimination.
Jamie: one
Red D: It forced by Janeway.
Jen: yeah and then, and then,
Jamie: yeah and who then gaslights him saying it wasn't an order yeah
Jen: yes and she says it's not an order it's just a suggestion as if your boss telling you it's just a suggestion not an order isn't in fact an order yeah she ordered with her her looks didn't she her gave him an eye yeah
Red D: And also, we all saw her give the order. think...
Red D: And she was like, I hope to see you on the whatever later. It seemed like an order. I think he interpreted it correctly.
Jen: yeah you did i'm very disappointed in this but even in this scenario in the in the future there is still
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: obligatory enforced work fund.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Oh, will it never end?
Red D: But if, it will never end. But if he hadn't gone, he wouldn't have met Mariana, who he did think was very intriguing and had some good games of cultic. mean, yes, the end.
Jen: And look where it led, Red. You see, this is the dangers of socialisation.
Red D: i mean yes the end Yes, I don't think we...
Jen: This is why we should all be hermits.
Red D: As someone who is verging on the hermit lifestyle, um I think that still good to get on every now and again. But yes, I did laugh when I think I had a similar comment, which was like, was Jamie forcing a everyone to attend work drinks?
Red D: like
Jamie: Yeah, it's lot work drinks, it's a Luai.
Red D: Yeah, that's true, but still...
Jen: and and the way it was done was very realistic because that is exactly how it's done at work you know there's no oh it's not forced it's a there's don't have to come and there's there's all these questions like oh so what ah are you coming oh oh but you know i'm sure you could finish that tomorrow and oh what you're busy what what are you doing instead and you i
Red D: Oh, they just like you. They just want you, though.
Jen: don't know
Red D: Dang, I can seem unsure about that.
Jen: yeah i'm highly suspicious
Red D: oh But yes, I also... also occurred to me a bit, but... Even in the 24th century, there's no escaping obligatory work drinks.
Jamie: All the most fun, the best kind of fun.
Red D: Organised fun.
Jamie: What fun doesn't happen without logistics plan?
Red D: To fair, I could just walk 100 meters and go to that nice holodeck with that, and like, Polynesian theme, I'd be like, yeah, that's fine.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: That's just, it's just like you have to go somewhere else, you have to go far.
Jamie: yeah then you'd Then you'd find yourself getting into relationship with the backing dancers of the Luai-themed hologram, and then you'd be the prime person who was complicit when the ship got taken over by the geotourism maintenance technicians of the Delta Quadrant sector, who are also seduction experts.
Red D: love that term. Oh. too
Jamie: You'd be a sitting duck for them, right? It's really lucky you've got me here to keep you on the straight and narrow.
Red D: I would be a sitting duck, that's fair. Now, over to you, Jamie.
Jamie: You're lucky I'm here today. Now I've got a bridge I can sell you if you're interested.
Red D: um I do want a point from you, so if you want to sell me that, go ahead.
Jamie: Okay. One point. There you go.
Red D: Huh?
Jamie: One point to red.
Red D: No, what's your next item of discussion?
Jamie: Well, I feel like the price of Diesel's been going up lately.
Red D: Oh, he's not even looking at his notes.
Jamie: Oh, you meant on this. Sorry, I'm being deliberately difficult. I mean, I was going to comment about the fact we have an episode which doesn't start with Neelix's tomfoolery, but that's rather been undermined by the fact that his...
Jamie: the holo program gets Harry into all sorts of trouble. i just kind of quite like a moment in which I think that when commenting on the beauty of the nebula, ah Chakotay tries to use it as a foil to tease Tuvok who said that he's quite capable of a preach of appreciating the phenomena without reacting emotionally to which Chakotay responds, emotion isn't always erroneous sometimes it's the entire point so sayeth Tom Paris and so sayeth Hannah Frye
Red D: Oh, Hannah Fry, the mathematician?
Jamie: yep she's the one Even when we think logically, the decision that we opt for is apparently taken due to our emotional reaction to the logical implications of that decision.
Red D: oh
Jamie: Is it still an emotional-based decision?
Red D: Interesting. It sounds a bit like the guy who was lee had his leaving drinks last week and he was like, there's no such thing as free will. Peace out. No, we had to have...
Jamie: Oh, gosh. Was it is he part of a particularly Calvinistic sect, or was it just a case of someone who thinks we all live the matrix?
Red D: No, not at all. but He's a data scientist. He's a data scientist.
Jamie: Right, well here that must be a grim outlook on life.
Red D: I think his argument was that because everything's biologically different and there's no space to intercept that, we don't have free will. But I'm not sure i buy that argument, or maybe I don't understand it.
Jamie: Well, I mean you can sort of suggest that everyone's, I mean it's the ultimate thinking machine idea of the mind and the human soul which is you have the illusion that you're taking a and all of the context that you're in and all of your lived experiences make your decisions inevitable and thus move you well the whole point would have been that rather than narrowing it down it makes it inevitable i'm not weighing in on either side of the argument but it's a pretty it's a pretty extreme
Red D: but
Red D: I think they narrow down your scope of decisions.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: conclusion to reach from something which could still very much be within the realms of the not certain by any means even if you do take that very bleak the human as a thinking machine or they a walking difference machine take of life which I'm assuming you don't so you know say you get to speak pretty well
Red D: No, well, I was like, I can't really engage. No, I can't really engage in this argument if you can't describe to me a world where free will does exist. and he was like, I have no idea what that would look like. And I'm like, well, then think this argument is moot. Is that what they say? feel like you have to be able to present both sides in a certain way. But yes, I think there's some free will.
Jen: If this guy accurate and we don't have any free will, then why the hell am I spending so long being so indecisive about all my decisions? All that time worrying it's wasted.
Jamie: Because that's just your personality removing from you the ability to not be indecisive and Ogo removing your free will from you. That would be the argument.
Jen: So I can, I could prove this theory wrong if I, from now on, I'm super decisive in all my decisions.
Jamie: except it won't be inevitable that you do that because your personality was always hardwired to react to precisely that set of stimuli and challenges about your character in just that way and ergo you have no free will that's how this argument continues and continues and continues and it's not a valid one because you i don't think you can ever say with enough weight of evidence for it to be sufficient to be certain that that is the case it's certainly not the subjectively experienced reality of day-to-day
Jen: Damn
Red D: That's true.
Jen: it.
Jen: thatmit
Red D: Oh.
Jamie: going through your choices not being certain how you'll choose in certain circumstances.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Red D: Agreed. did agree. um
Jamie: I'd probably have disagreed with you on the night, but you know, I get a bit depressed when I drink.
Red D: um
Jamie: Sometimes.
Red D: I don't even know how we got to that free will point, but I think it's my turn.
Jamie: Well, I mean, I'm just looking at it. i Yeah, emotion isn't always erroneous.
Red D: Ah, yes.
Jamie: Sometimes it's the entire point. And Tuvok got told. both in that instance and this episode.
Red D: A nicer sentiment, that's true. um
Jamie: Yeah, over to Red.
Red D: Yeah, over to me. So ah have a few...
Jamie: That's you.
Red D: This is a very minor point, but I was reminded of my own life experience in this episode.
Jamie: Oh.
Red D: Very minor life experience. So Tupac is welcoming everyone to the after-work drinks or after-work... and luau and he's handing out these beautiful leis, you know, the fat flower garlands.
Red D: And I think a lot of them look very, thought they were really beautiful. They looked like real flowers um and everything. And then the one he's wearing is exactly identical to the one that they handed out at Kanaloa like bar on Friday nights to people coming in to for drinks, which I went there very often after work for work drinks with colleagues.
Jamie: Oh.
Jamie: Oh no.
Red D: And i was like, why is he wearing the cheap, like,
Jamie: Well, I agree because...
Jen: so
Red D: Like the one they had on for free at the bar now at El Leigh and everyone has these beautiful...
Jamie: Yeah. I mean, because what's what does it say, the first sentence of this particular point?
Red D: like um What did I say?
Jamie: Because I think that's... What is it?
Red D: Everyone has beautiful
Jamie: Don't they trust with the ladies they've populated that holo program with? Sorry I couldn't resist.
Red D: And I said, Neelix has the same one from the much frequented Canelova from my younger days at my current company.
Jamie: What is Caneloa?
Red D: It's closed now, but it was a tiki themed bar, very close to work, which stayed open until two.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Oh, amazing. I have to say, Red, I did also have some flashbacks when I saw the lace.
Red D: Oh, yes.
Jen: I actually think the one, not just the one that um they're trying to give Tuvok, but the one that Neelix has given as well. Ah,
Red D: Yeah, Neelix is the one that's the cheap one.
Jamie: I'm sure.
Jen: okay, okay.
Red D: That's the one they hand out for free at all the bars.
Jen: Yeah, the one that Neelix wears. I had the exact same memory of like, oh my goodness, that's the one I had on for the entire week of my freshers week at university.
Jamie: I'm sure.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: I'm sure. I'm sure. I'm sure.
Red D: Yes, exactly.
Jen: That exact one.
Jamie: I'm sure.
Red D: That's my point.
Jamie: I'm sure. I'm sure.
Red D: That's my point.
Jamie: I'm sure.
Red D: Yes, anyone i think who's maybe, I know if it was the UK or young at a certain time will recognize the lei that Neelix is wearing because it was handed up freely at bars and Freshers' Weeks and clubs.
Jamie: I'm sure.
Jen: okay
Jen: Absolutely.
Red D: And everyone else is wearing these beautiful like magnolia, I don't know, whatever.
Jamie: shihi
Red D: like They look like genuine flowers and then he's got the kind of like The one you wake and you're like, I'm still wearing it from the night before. like
Jamie: Actually, could i could I talk to something that happens that particular time? Because I've realised that none of us have it. Sorry.
Red D: Yeah, go for it.
Jamie: No, carry on. I've interrupted you and I've realised that we haven't gotten it. And, you know, it'll be my last point, even if it's not there. Sorry. Carry on.
Red D: Okay, well, I think we're heading to Jenny and then you can you we'll have a chance very soon.
Jen: That is my last point. So I'm just going to end with saying that we do love how there is some more extant wise and kind advice from Tuvok at the end about, you know, how Marina's loneliness is more profound than she might be but willing to admit.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: and you know he's suggesting that maybe she could mix with her own kind again but with the important caveat which I love mix with your own kind again for a time because let's face it um when you're a bit of an antisocial hermit like I am you can only take so much of people and so the the for a time element is very important
Jamie: Yeah, that's
Jamie: such that's why I'm in the shed.
Red D: ah
Red D: I love the way they actually wrote that. Like, yeah. ah
Jen: but Jamie you don't count you you're you're You're always okay good.
Jamie: I'm not a person.
Jen: when i'm When I'm like, no more peopling today, i always mean more peopling apart from Jamie.
Jamie: I'm not human.
Red D: Yes, Jamie broke through.
Jen: It's like no more, you know, Jamie and the cats, they don't care.
Jamie: That's when I hide in the shed, people.
Jamie: This is cry for help from me, to be clear.
Red D: Of course.
Red D: ah That's so funny. even really notice that little tag onto that sentence, but it's but's such a big qualifier.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: And very well picked up, Jenny. Yeah,
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And I think it's probably, actually good advice for the character as well because she's she is clearly someone who's chosen to do a job where she just gets to stay away from people she maybe doesn't like them so much maybe they annoy her and um she's chosen that rather than the a job or a lifestyle that's going to be like constantly surrounded and overwhelmed by people and maybe that wasn't necessarily a bad choice based on her personality it's just maybe she just went a little bit too far with it you know just a little bit
Red D: yeah. yeah
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: would like, once
Red D: Yeah, a little bit. She did a lot of hacking. i so so Yeah, well.
Jen: yes
Red D: um Nice. Jamie, what did you want to say, earlier?
Jamie: i would like once again Flying the flag for better HR on Voyager. I'd like to talk about the issues of the Doctor standing in the middle of a group of holograms making them snog him one after the other.
Red D: Yes!
Jen: oh yeah oh that was rough
Red D: Very good point. Very good point.
Jamie: um i'd I'd like the post-feminist text of that to be dissected, please.
Jen: i purposefully didn't put it on my list because i didn't want to talk about it i just i really like the doctor's character at character and i really hated that scene that was so unnecessary that scene that's all i have to say
Jamie: Ha ha ha ha ha!
Red D: ah
Jamie: Well, at least one of us is standing up to this vile sexist trope.
Red D: Well, I mean, i guess if we put it in the context of the character...
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: reds Red's determined to defend the Star Trek at all costs.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Well, it's just that he, I mean, he's only recently, how long has he been able to leave the the medical bay? almost like bay? Since he got his, I guess he could always go to the holodeck, actually, now that I think about it.
Jen: name
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm
Red D: But um perhaps he wasn't always included in these early on, in these social events, because he has to fight for some recognition.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: And he is always looking for new experiences.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: But yes, watching him have those new experiences was a bit off-putting.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: ah
Jen: you know
Red D: New experiences and sensations, I guess. But yeah, there was something about it that was like, like when he kissed the second one on the lips, i was like, that's too far.
Jen: It's creepy. Yeah.
Red D: So is that enough post-feminist analysis for you, Jamie?
Jamie: I mean, like I just wanted quality HR here and I'm not getting it. And I suppose I won't.
Red D: Yes, they were at work drinks and he was like kissing these women in front of everyone.
Jamie: And, you know, presumably they don't have any free will to say no either.
Red D: I'm not sure about that, but I guess it depends how they're programmed.
Jamie: That or he's just the world's greatest seducteur.
Red D: It's
Jamie: Even better, even better than geotaurianism maintenance in the Delta Quadrant.
Red D: addictive.
Red D: wow GTMID.
Jamie: He's even better.
Red D: I'm trying, like, can we shorten that by any chance?
Jamie: No, we can't shorten geotouristic asset maintenance technicians in the Delta Quadrant.
Red D: GTAMID. I'm trying to...
Jamie: You tame it.
Red D: ah um
Jamie: But no, geotourism asset maintenance technicians in the Delta Quadrant. Rolls off the tongue.
Red D: It just rolls off.
Jamie: Rolls off the tongue. But they're no match for the medical holograms of the Alpha Quadrant.
Red D: Nope, nope, nope, nope. So I guess my final point, let's say, um I'll wrap a few things up, was ah it's a bit, I did love the minute where we discover that Tuvok has a bit of a stalker, where he's deleted our program, he enters his
Jamie: system
Red D: quarters and she's just sitting there being like aren't you happy to see me and he's like what's happening
Jamie: Do we think he's more attracted to her in a Starfleet uniform or not?
Red D: i think if that's well i'm not sure but in that situation he handled it very professionally and i immediately notified all the right people no well it this is after he deleted it but yeah
Jamie: By deleting her.
Jamie: so Right, yeah.
Red D: reporting her to the bridge and everything but um it was i mean it was a tiny scene but and it was just done and i guess that very classic way but you are like oh oh something's gone wrong here um and then um yes we find out i guess she's hijacked the hologram
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: graphic system to run things on the ship and everything. But then when he, when they figure out how to beam him to her ship, you're like, Ooh, are we even going to discover like a catfishing situation?
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Like, what is she actually going to be like back to some more like kind of contemporary concepts, I guess.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: and
Red D: Uh, but no, I wouldn't say he was catfished. I mean, she's an alien, but she's, she is who she is.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: She wasn't like really pretending to be someone else. I think, um, her personality and everything,
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: Uh, so, no catfishing, sadly. guess. Um, uh, yeah, I thought that was a good mystery. little mystery. The twist of the, she's not what she seems, now she's kind of stalking, now she's actually a threat to the ship, and then who is she actually?
Red D: Uh, was fun to find out.
Jamie: Yes.
Red D: Um, yeah. I think. And I thought she had a pretty thankless task. Um, being there out on her own and even if that's what you chose initially,
Red D: um you can get tired of your own company after a while.
Jen: I've heard it happens.
Red D: ah
Jen: I'm joking.
Red D: I thought actually the actress, I didn't look up her name, probably I probably could look it up now, but I thought she did a pretty good job switching from, i presume it's the same actress, the seductive person, to someone who, without a lot of backstory, explanation, or whatever, suddenly had to be quite emotional in a certain way, and like, convey that sense of, like, you believe her motivation behind what she was doing. She's not like an evil person or anything.
Red D: So...
Jamie: Yeah. Okay.
Red D: yeah i thought she was doing a good job right so does anyone have any final points before we move on to themes someone's just done a lot of themes i guess that person is jenny
Jamie: Oh my word, yes they have. um
Jen: I'm the only one who ever does the theme song.
Red D: i do think of i think of that more than on the spot like type question that's true but
Jen: and
Jamie: i I do the ah HR stuff, you know, none of you guys do that, so you know, quids in.
Jen: Yeah, yeah.
Jen: Okay, here we go, here we go. Loneliness, isolation, companionship and friendship, emotions versus logic.
Red D: Yes.
Jen: That's all my themes.
Jamie: I thought there was going to be some like Big Bang Theory type rap there, or something like an Elizabeth Cordova.
Red D: Yep.
Jen: I mean, I would love to be able to do that, but that's a bit beyond my skills, unfortunately.
Jamie: No, no way.
Jen: I bet you could do that, Jay.
Red D: yep Yeah, emotions versus logic. i There was a point that I didn't really mention, but I did love that Tuvok loved, well loved, found Mariana, I think, her logic so attractive. i was like, I wish more men were attracted to logic. But,
Red D: but um Maybe I'm not as logical as I think, so that's... Anyway.
Jamie: don't know if it's all true.
Red D: ah Themes. Yeah. the
Red D: Maybe another theme, which wasn't really a strong theme, though but just add something different, is the power and beauty of nature or the space. like They were really mesmerized by this nebula. They wanted to understand it, research it. And someone was there on their own, full-time, particularly preventing this nebula from burning out so other people could enjoy it and just appreciate it.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Oh
Jamie: Yeah, those geotourism asset maintenance techniques in the Delta Quadrant, you can't put it past the
Jen: m
Red D: my god, that was such a softball, why did I give that to you?
Jen: Sacrifice in the name of beauty. That's what I think about in terms of that theme.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie: I mean, could we also talk about the universality of the tourist asset in the Delta Quadrant together? I couldn't say it quite that time. Damn it.
Jen: hmm
Red D: Yeah, I mean, we all seem to have had a similar experience.
Jamie: I won't say I'm drunk, I promise, but still.
Red D: Well, most of us seem to have a similar experience.
Jamie: I mean Sorry?
Red D: You've not had a lay, Jamie? I said you've not had a lay.
Jamie: What? I've not had a lay No, I've not had a lay And I've not been seduced by geotourist asset maintenance technician from the Delta Quadrant either the way it happened here
Red D: lay. lay. Oh, why?
Red D: I'm sad if you've never had a lay around your neck.
Jamie: I'm sad if you've never had a G-Tamard around your neck but do I go around patronising you around that?
Red D: Star players. Let's wrap this up. Star players.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Jenny, do you have one to bind? Can I come to you?
Jen: yeah yeah i mean i'm just gonna go for the obvious tuvok because yeah just yeah these are the obvious choice you gotta trust your gut and that's my immediate thought because you know of all the great comedy and one-liners and also the sage wise advice and um there is we haven't we didn't actually discuss that little moment at the end which was quite lovely which i suspect red probably enjoyed as well where
Red D: Oh.
Jamie: yeah
Jen: he
Red D: Oh, yes. ah yes
Jen: basically realizes that he's been seen by this other alien as someone who's different because he's so isolated and alone and it someone else um outside of him recognizing him like in that way makes him reconsider his own situation and that maybe he needs to reach out whilst he's on this voyage home where he doesn't have his family with him and so he sits down with harry and tells him he'll teach him calto
Jamie: Mm.
Jamie: Mm.
Jamie: Mm.
Jen: I just really do that as like a little self-reflection on the part of Tuvok
Red D: called to this.
Jen: um which you know it's nice because Tuvok always seems so correct and right and he's accurate about everything and he's right about everything but even he you know is able to self-reflect and consider that in in this occasion it might be a good thing for him to build some relationships
Jamie: yeah thing yeah
Red D: Yes, and you reminded me that was a lovely scene. and But also, think, is it Harry who says something like, doesn't this take years to learn? And Tuvok is like, yes. But so it's like, this is not like a passing thing.
Jen: here
Red D: It's like, he's making a kind of a commitment to this work on this relationship and friendship.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Yeah, and it's not a sort of wild love at first sight kind of feeling.
Jamie: Deal
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: with Mr.
Jen: It's a
Jamie: Harikido.
Jen: it's just a, you know, building a bit over time.
Red D: But...
Red D: Because even actually now I remember when Harry introduces Tuvok to Mariana, he's like, this is my friend. And Tuvok's like, no, we're not friends, we're colleagues.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: like so he's had a bit of a change of heart, which is nice to see.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: ah Jamie, star player.
Jamie: Can I go for a group rather than individual?
Red D: You can go for, yeah, whatever you want.
Jamie: I would like to go for the geotourist asset maintenance team of the Delta Quadrant, who are clearly a fierce group and who I would back in a scrap with Starfleet Intelligence any day of the week in their performance thus far.
Red D: Why did I fall for that?
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Red D: Okay.
Jamie: yeah
Red D: Yes, you may.
Jamie: Would you like to rescind that decision?
Red D: You may. Is there more than one or is it a
Jamie: Would you... There must be. It can't just be a one-and-done thing. Like, they must have more.
Red D: I guess she could at the very least get a replacement, so yeah.
Jamie: I mean, would you like would you like me to give it elsewhere?
Red D: No, no, that's good because then...
Jamie: i mean, i'm I'm happy to give it elsewhere. You'll hate yourself, but I will.
Red D: no this is actually...
Jamie: I will. I will.
Red D: You'll give it to a rock or something, so let's just lock that in the bank.
Jamie: No, going to give it to Neelix, because he relatively stays out of trouble this episode.
Red D: He can be star player, what's the word?
Jamie: Along with the G-Tamets...
Red D: Understudy. Understudy.
Jen: Oh.
Red D: I will then go, because I did like the actress who played and Mariana, whose name I did look up now, I think Sandra Nelson, but think I already covered that. So um I will give it to Janeway for her lovely dress she wore to the office drinks.
Red D: I really liked her outfit.
Jen: oh
Jamie: slightly objectifying
Red D: cause I was like, what is she going to wear? Because is she going to turn up in a uniform? I was actually thinking that. And then she had a very nice dress on.
Jen: ah yes difficult to sit and ought to wear in that scenario if you're hurt yes i agree
Red D: Yes. So she chose Will.
Jen: nothing nothing
Red D: um Any final part your thoughts or anything?
Jen: no it was a long one an hour or seven minutes
Red D: Yeah, that was quite long today. So let's play that jingle. And... um
Jamie: Can I?
Red D: And let me check what's up next.
Jamie: What?
Red D: I think we have Coda. Does anyone remember Coda? Jenny, do you remember Coda?
Jamie: then
Jen: Oh, I do not. That's a mysterious one.
Red D: oh
Red D: So we will find out in two to three to four weeks time. ah
Jen: Based on our strict podcasting schedule.
Red D: Based on our straight podcast, we say so. But yes, if you ever listened, then you want to write in and let us know who you are. Please do.
Jamie: Just not to us personally.
Red D: Thanks and bye. ah
