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We watch "The Chute" (S3 Ep.3)
14 Plays13 days ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "The Chute”, in which Harry and Tom’s friendship is really put to the test in the worst prison in space.
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Theme music by Alain D
Recommended
Transcript
Opening and Rule Breaking
00:00:00
Red D
Oh,
00:00:13
Jen
Just letting the music run on this one for a bit.
00:00:16
Jamie
People, I think and thought we said we'd have music discipline this time around with no giggling or you know commenting while the music was there. Very disappointed to be the one who broke discipline and not see better sort of mime miming as we do this.
00:00:32
Red D
It's very hard to sit here in silence and think about the one person listening. They might be getting annoyed.
00:00:39
Jamie
Hey, I will not have people be mean about my one weirdo stalker who I don't know about. Who presumably lives Where is the last time that someone downloaded this?
00:00:50
Red D
America? Texas? North Carolina? Cut her up.
00:00:54
Jamie
Does it always have to be places where gun ownership is common? That's all I'm asking.
00:00:58
Red D
Ha ha ha.
00:00:59
Jamie
I can imagine us generating worlds for rage with hardcore Star Trek fans who happen to have guns.
00:01:07
Jen
This is always the length of the actual pop song now. that That is a long jingle.
00:01:10
Red D
Yes, I always have to cut it short because...
00:01:10
Jamie
How did you do that?
00:01:13
Red D
I don't
00:01:14
Jamie
How did you guys like my lip sync to it?
00:01:18
Red D
think I...
00:01:19
Jen
Very nice.
00:01:20
Red D
Very nice. Janie, that was a good tip. Instead of acting confused, just say, very nice. I see.
00:01:27
Jamie
Are you serious? You're giving my fellow podcasters tips on how to manage me? You little ratbag!
00:01:34
Red D
I didn't see your lips moving.
00:01:36
Jamie
You ratbags! This is outrageous!
Podcast Welcome and Host Introductions
00:01:40
Jamie
Well, anyway, o on that note, um I think so it falls to me said to say an absolutely massive welcome to my good person podcast hosts.
00:01:53
Jamie
How are we being referred to this evening?
00:01:57
Red D
Red?
00:01:59
Jen
and Jay, I don't know, how do you normally refer to me on podcast?
00:02:02
Jamie
Did you Jane?
00:02:04
Red D
Why
00:02:06
Jen
Jay Jay, first letter, first letter.
00:02:06
Jamie
What the hell? Righty-ho. that Red and Jane, who appears to be changing identity in the...
00:02:11
Jen
Not Jane, Jane. a chain
00:02:13
Jamie
Oh, right. Red and Jenny. It is a pleasure for me, if not for you,
00:02:18
Red D
bother asking?
00:02:21
Jamie
um to be
Star Trek Episode Summary
00:02:23
Jamie
here with you this evening. We are here, gathered ah in the sight this thing called life, to discuss the episode 45, The Shoot, which it is my absolute delight to give you this one minute summary, built on the fact that to me, this episode basically felt like the Star Trek universe decided it wanted to spend an episode in Judge Dredlandia.
00:02:46
Red D
ah
00:02:47
Jamie
ah and the shenanigans that ensue as both of Paris and Ensign Kim have weird mood-enhancing aggression enhancers built into their skull and they try and break out from a prison world slash ship into which they have been thrown after being falsely accused of a terrorist bombing.
00:03:13
Jamie
In which end there are such notable moments as Paris claiming to have killed 47 patrolmen and been dobbed in by Ensign Kim, and ah Ensign Kim losing it to the rage implant and trying to beat Paris to death, in spite of which we're left with a story that is all about the brotherly comradeship of two Starfleet officers against the universe and just about getting away with it.
00:03:42
Jamie
How does that sound for some of good people?
00:03:45
Red D
That was great and even helpful for our listeners.
00:03:46
Jen
That was fantastic.
00:03:48
Jamie
I bet you weren't expecting that when I said we'd moderate this one into submission.
00:03:52
Red D
ah no Very good, Jeannie.
00:03:55
Jamie
No worries. What were your guys'
Initial Reactions to 'The Shoot'
00:03:57
Jamie
reactions to this one? how Did you enjoy it? Did you think it was awful? What did you think of it? And any salient plot but points that someone listening who has only heard my description of it might need to have filled in?
00:04:11
Jamie
Disgust.
00:04:13
Red D
Well, I'll jump in. and well i as our as I read the blurb, I guess, when I was like falsely imprisoned of terrorism, and I was like, oh no, I remember this is going to be a bit hard to watch.
00:04:24
Jamie
Hmm.
00:04:25
Red D
um Just because, as as is always the case, whenever you watch something, maybe it's more relevant or less relevant to ongoing world events or things that you're more or less aware of, I guess.
00:04:32
Jamie
Hmm.
Theme of Friendship and Hardship
00:04:39
Red D
And... and I also remember they go through the, I kind of didn't remember exactly, but I remember they go through some kind of mental anguish because of this, the, the, the camp.
00:04:51
Red D
so was like, Ooh, this going to be a bit tough. And, and their friendship is kind of put to the test and it's very tough environment. So that was, but overall when I, that was actually my initial reaction as in, as it started, which is not really the point of this question.
00:05:03
Jamie
That's a long initial reaction.
00:05:07
Red D
But I do like this episode and, um, you know, I always like a romance basically or a friendship story. So yeah. yeah
00:05:14
Jamie
It does have one singular plot effect that I absolutely love. But before I sort of mention it, I'll sort of ask Jenny for your take on this one.
Critique of Episode Setting
00:05:25
Jen
Well, um not it's not my favorite one. I'm not a huge fan of this one, but um I think that's literally just because the setting and the storyline isn't, you know, your typical Star Trek exploration out in space.
00:05:35
Jamie
Hmm.
00:05:40
Jen
You know, lot of it is set in prison.
00:05:41
Jamie
Hmm.
00:05:44
Jen
So and um I'm not really one of those that goes and watches a lot of prison. and There's a lot prison dramas on nowadays, but they're not.
00:05:52
Red D
Yeah, I've never watched a single one except Prison Break back in the day.
00:05:53
Jen
Yeah.
00:05:55
Red D
Yeah.
00:05:55
Jen
susan I haven't even watched that one. Yeah, so when this one comes on, I'm always bit like, oh, you know, because most of it's in prison. Plus, I mean, they do a great job. I mean, I've noted it know later.
00:06:07
Jen
They do a great job in various ways of creating the prison environment and atmosphere.
00:06:12
Jamie
and
00:06:13
Red D
Yeah.
Prison Atmosphere Analysis
00:06:14
Jamie
Well,
00:06:14
Jen
So, you know, I think, you know, it's not that it's not well done.
00:06:17
Jen
But yeah, I'm always a bit like, oh, it's this one.
00:06:21
Jamie
I mean, you i hear what you're saying. and I mean, almost rather than announcing it, diving straight in, I think your segue from that into your first point is probably quite a natural one around how the plot and the storyline create an atmosphere.
00:06:37
Jen
Yeah, do you want me to go first?
00:06:39
Jamie
Well, I mean... numerically that that's how it looks on the... you
00:06:43
Jen
Oh, well, we're going numerically, okay, well.
00:06:46
Jamie
Well, like I mean, we've we've already you know moderated this one into submission just by giving it to me to moderate, and you know if we don't, Red might just smack me, because you know I feel like she doesn't like it when I shift from the order of things, and quite rightly not.
00:07:01
Red D
you
00:07:04
Jamie
She does like it when I'm flouncy, though, so i'm I'm revving up the flounce for this evening.
00:07:09
Jen
Those really good flounce. Well done.
00:07:11
Jamie
La, madame.
00:07:11
Jen
Good flounce.
00:07:12
Jamie
So, to your first point, madame.
00:07:13
Jen
So, yes, so basically it's just expanding of what I've said, but I just think the whole present atmosphere is really like, you know, this threatening, paranoid,
00:07:26
Jen
um vibe going on and I think they do that really well I'm not entirely sure how they manage it it's something about the scenery and the different bits of the scenery they're in you know there's like a little they they managed to this initially when the first character I think we start with Harry arrives in he's completely surrounded no way out um by all of these aggressive threatening violent other aliens so
00:07:34
Jamie
Yeah.
00:07:40
Jamie
Hmm.
00:07:47
Jamie
Hmm.
00:07:50
Jamie
Yeah.
00:07:54
Jamie
Hmm.
00:07:56
Jen
And then, you know, they're running around this enormous um sort of dark, dilapidated, what they think is underground caves, but turns out to be a ship.
00:08:03
Jamie
Hmm.
00:08:07
Jen
um And they can't find any shelter.
00:08:08
Jamie
Hmm.
00:08:09
Jen
And they finally they do find a shelter. it's just like this awful little dark, I don't know, casing shell of an old ship. I don't know even know what it is. And then even that is then taken over by another violent gang.
00:08:21
Jen
i' And then they don't have any safe. Not that that was particularly safe in the first place, And there's just like constant threats of being knifed or like, you know, having your food stolen or your shoes stolen.
00:08:29
Jamie
hmm
00:08:33
Jen
And it's a sort of seemingly never ending, you know, stuff going wrong.
00:08:35
Jamie
and
00:08:40
Jen
you know um So I think i think it's the way it's written was was quite well done because it really, i mean, I really do feel that sense of like threat and, you know, paranoia.
00:08:48
Jamie
and
00:08:51
Red D
and
00:08:52
Jamie
Yeah. and good I mean, I'd like to sort of jump in there because it sort of segues onto rather naturally onto one of my points and I'm breaking all of my promises about being sequential but with Vlantz now.
Dystopian Setting Enhancement
00:09:05
Jamie
I'm going to be unsequential but i'm going to take this seriously, which is that I really feel artistically they achieved that by the very first, from the very first instant You don't get any starships, you don't get any of the sort of sense of space and wide vistas you traditionally associate with Star Trek. From the very first moment, you're in the most un-Star Trek universe-like
00:09:28
Jen
Hmm.
00:09:29
Jamie
environment and magic enclosed yes dystopian like something out of blade runner dark it's dirty there's violence uh there's no star trek uniforms and they do everything barring making it a different science fiction fright sci-fi that they possibly can to take you out of that universe and it's like
00:09:29
Jen
Dystopia.
00:09:43
Jen
There's no prime director. No morals.
00:09:51
Jen
Hmm. It's the world west.
00:09:52
Jamie
just as though you were being dumped out of that shoot at the same time, dumped in the middle of that.
00:09:55
Red D
Oh.
00:09:57
Jamie
And I think that that's a really effective device to sort of shake up the audience for an episode like this. um And I think they employ it very, very effectively. So yeah, I completely agree with that.
00:10:07
Jen
Yeah. I
Acting Quality Discussion
00:10:09
Jen
think that's why I, even though I don't enjoy it so much as an episode, I i respect it, I guess.
00:10:09
Jamie
um
00:10:13
Jamie
I was gripped by it, yeah.
00:10:13
Jen
I think, yeah, it's well done, you know.
00:10:17
Jamie
Yeah. Because I agree, i it wasn't necessarily one that I most enjoyed, but I was... more and even more engaged than i often am um but red do you have any thoughts or or do i have the torch to you for your point or how's this work yay build build build
00:10:29
Red D
and I mean, I can add to this. and Well, I mean, I don't know if it's built, but it is related.
00:10:34
Jen
there
00:10:37
Red D
so And I see i have I have like nine points and Jenny's got four, so I better get rid of some of them.
00:10:42
Jen
I know I really struggled this one.
00:10:42
Jamie
i guess everyone's wondering let's just type build in chat
00:10:43
Jen
I really struggled for some reason.
00:10:44
Red D
But, um speak I mean, it was a terrifying, it was a terrifying hellscape. And I kind of laughed to myself a little bit, Jenny, when you said that gang that took over that sanctuary or that accommodation that they found, because the gang was just like,
00:10:58
Red D
two old Katerians who had just like lost their mind for being in prison too long.
00:11:00
Jamie
Yes. Yes.
00:11:02
Jen
But they were crazy.
00:11:03
Red D
And they were so, yeah, they were acting so like, you know, they were so unstable that it was just very creepy.
00:11:03
Jamie
Yes.
00:11:03
Jen
you crazy
00:11:08
Red D
and
00:11:09
Jen
Also, can i just say I love your phrase, their accommodation. It's like this like dilapidated crate in a dark corner.
00:11:12
Jamie
yes
00:11:16
Red D
don't know.
00:11:16
Jamie
yeah
00:11:18
Red D
I to it. also,
Role of the Clamp Device
00:11:19
Red D
my brain's not working that well, but, um, um, but you know, I'd also, when i I was like, at first when I heard that it was a prison of without guards, was like, Oh, this is,
00:11:21
Jamie
this just
00:11:28
Red D
this can't be a good thing at all.
00:11:30
Jamie
I
00:11:31
Red D
But then they introduced the concept of the clamp. So I'm like, okay, maybe that's how they control the prison population. But actually, that's, no, that's actually how they promote more violence in this population.
00:11:37
Jamie
don't want to control it
00:11:42
Red D
so I found that very, very, very tact terrifying. And I guess, and very chaotic, again, which is what contributed to that feeling of instability and
00:11:51
Jamie
really
00:11:53
Red D
more i guess i think i was trying to make a joke to myself there but someone gets killed when they're all scrabbling for what looks like dried wheat books i mean that's kind of
00:11:59
Jamie
yeah
Character Messiah Complex
00:12:02
Red D
like the level of um
00:12:04
Jamie
Or, you know, what they've actually done is they've gathered the Universal Convention of Weetabix fans in one place.
00:12:11
Red D
yeah so it was very well done i guess and maybe it's also why i was like oh i don't want to watch this because it's so uncomfortable
00:12:17
Jen
Yeah. yeah
00:12:22
Jamie
I like it. Yeah. up i I'm more engaged in this one, actually, in this discussion than I anticipated being, which is is a great way to to be. I sort of... I feel like I'm going to zoom from the serious and the deep and the artistic to something that made me smile, as yet again we have the Delaney sisters used as light relief slash something to fixate and fantasize on for our unreconstructed Star
00:12:49
Red D
They
Humorous Delaney Sisters Discussion
00:12:53
Jamie
Trek males as
00:12:54
Red D
already mentioned them quite a lot in this episode.
00:12:56
Jamie
Well, there must be something they're looking forward to getting back to, um to the point where I actually Googled them, because I don't actually recall ever seeing them in an episode. um But I'm also quite amused because there's a very, very... So I'm into Warhammer, which is incredibly naff, but there's a very...
00:12:56
Jen
ah
00:13:16
Jamie
funny sort of, you woke me up from a good dream, twins they were, meme in the Warhammer fictional universe, ah which I was reminded of as a cross science fiction franchise parallel that inevitably makes me smile as the teenage boy that I am, or at least to claim to be.
00:13:34
Red D
but least tom had the decency oh sorry go ahead at least tom had the decency to only dream about one of them i think i think he mentioned a name i think so
00:13:36
Jamie
Huh? No, no, you...
00:13:40
Jamie
Well, you didn't actually specify, to my knowledge, yeah if you're trimming out about i mean they are twins how would he how could he ever be sure
00:13:45
Jen
I mean,
00:13:49
Jen
well, I like to think that they bring them up so much because, you know, there's two of them. So at least, you know,
00:13:53
Red D
yes yes exactly damie looks very disappointed and not on board
00:14:01
Jamie
yeah three is better than four anyway sorry i didn't say that
00:14:06
Red D
ah
00:14:06
Jamie
um Right, gosh. On that note, it forced me to pass the torch back up the chain to Jenny to bring some order and some seriousness of engagement for this one.
00:14:17
Jen
oh it's affecting me already okay so i'm gonna just i'm gonna go like this is there's a phrase that i was taught in in in my working life um and you use the less you know vulgar expression like a poop sandwich basically yeah where you
00:14:30
Jamie
Okay.
00:14:38
Jamie
Oh, oh, what?
00:14:39
Jen
when you're on like a client call and you give some bad news, or
Character and Emotional Criticism
00:14:44
Jen
like bad feedback or or receive some. And so you start with something really positive, and then you end with something for really positive. So I'm going to say a little bit into I think why I didn't enjoy this one so much.
00:14:57
Jen
um Other than thinking, you know, like, as we discussed, like, they did a really good job of creating this like threatening atmosphere.
00:14:58
Jamie
Hmm. Oh.
00:15:04
Jen
um I did find like the actual acting really grating for this one. um Like the of all the prison, the prison extras. um
00:15:14
Jamie
oh
00:15:14
Red D
ah
00:15:15
Jen
Yeah, like I just it was very, I was very conscious of them being actors, which i always think is kind of a bad sign. Like, you know, it it felt very, like too hard to get away from that. Like, and I didn't really believe in any of their characters.
00:15:29
Jen
um So I think there was the the guy that sort semi helped Harry
00:15:35
Red D
The Messiah complex guy.
00:15:37
Jen
Yeah, the Messiah Complex guy.
00:15:37
Jamie
Yeah, dude.
00:15:38
Jen
And he was doing this, like, monologue. And it was just, thought it was great.
00:15:40
Jamie
Massa complex meets
00:15:43
Jen
Yeah, not so brilliant, not only delivered, yeah.
00:15:44
Red D
His name is Zia.
00:15:47
Jen
It was just, it made me cringe a little bit, Which, you know, I never cringe at Star Trek. I mean, Star Trek's amazing. um So, yeah, I don't know what it was.
00:15:59
Jen
um But it just, yeah, felt a bit OTT on the acting front.
00:16:03
Jamie
but I mean, that guy...
00:16:05
Jen
I don't did any of you guys find that?
00:16:07
Jamie
Yeah, he did annoy me. It felt a little bit like they were trying to do a messianic religious...
00:16:14
Jamie
God help me, Jordan Peterson style version of Karl Marx in prison before Jordan Peterson in the thing.
00:16:20
Red D
I don't think Jordan Peterson was around. ah but um But you're not really referring to him.
00:16:23
Jamie
Sorry?
00:16:27
Red D
I mean, you know, I don't know if this very sacrilege to say, but I think Harry's acting was the most over the top. um
00:16:35
Jen
I mean, I didn't want to say it, but yeah, it's not my favorite.
00:16:37
Red D
I know, but you've got to be...
00:16:37
Jamie
Oh!
00:16:38
Red D
up
00:16:39
Jamie
You do not say that about Planet Earth's most attractive man one year in my company.
00:16:39
Jen
He does an amazing job in other episodes.
Character Dynamics and Acting Choices
00:16:45
Jen
I mean, I love Mason, but yeah, go on, Red.
00:16:45
Red D
But he was...
00:16:48
Red D
No, i was going to say, I mean, it was like he was... he was ah He's put in a new situation, so you're seeing a new side of him, and it's not as controlled. So maybe it comes across as a bit ah over the top, too emotional.
00:16:59
Jamie
and Yeah.
00:17:03
Red D
But I don't know, maybe...
00:17:05
Jamie
I really appreciate it being a difficult...
00:17:05
Jen
Maybe he's just not used to playing an aggressive, losing it, violent kind of character.
00:17:09
Red D
Hmm.
00:17:09
Jamie
Yeah.
00:17:12
Jen
and
00:17:13
Jamie
It's also quite hard for that character to be played with that in that emotional range because of the fact that he is portrayed as quite an open and open with his emotions guy normally and he has to basically to really show a difference really really sort of dial up everything it's very hard to dial up that much to the point you get that he has like a clamp implant in the back of his head driving him slowly insane with aggression to the point where he's vulnerable to Jordan Peece and Karl Marx messianic impersonated person without hamming it up slightly I agree
00:17:55
Jen
What did think of Tom's sort reaction to the clamp?
00:17:58
Jamie
Mm-hmm.
00:18:01
Red D
I like that he's always scratching his head.
00:18:03
Jen
this
00:18:03
Red D
ah was Because they mentioned that it's itchy. So it was like kind of like a...
00:18:07
Jen
Oh, I know, he'll look at his shudders.
00:18:08
Red D
um
00:18:09
Jamie
all
00:18:11
Red D
But I, for me, I just, I don't know if was correct on that, but I just felt like maybe of all the actors, the one that was the most different or was Harry, but yeah.
00:18:26
Jen
But Tom was playing this kind of, well, after he got stabbed anyway, he sort went into this quite almost like a scared animal kind of reaction, which I presume was also the clamp as well.
00:18:30
Red D
Oh yeah.
00:18:34
Red D
Hmm.
00:18:36
Jamie
Mm. Mm.
00:18:41
Jen
I guess if you have something making you respond more aggressively, but then you're injured, then that sort fear and confusion would make sense.
Emotional Depth of Tom and Harry
00:18:52
Red D
Yes, I mean, I'll throw in one of my points here, but but he's, while he's strong and uninjured, he's like, Harry, if you can get a chance to leave, get out, get out.
00:19:03
Red D
He says that least twice.
00:19:03
Jamie
in
00:19:04
Red D
And then when he's injured, and he's like, Harry, don't leave me.
00:19:04
Jen
Hmm.
00:19:08
Red D
And then Harry lies down next to him, and then they hear the prison sounds. but and a lot but I thought that was a very nice moment, but horrible moment to live through, I guess.
00:19:16
Jen
in
00:19:17
Red D
But yeah, he really is weakened by that, like his... so Stopping.
00:19:22
Jamie
And I mean, talking talking and building slightly of elements within this episode that touch on that emotional piece, I do enjoy the
00:19:22
Red D
stopping
00:19:34
Jamie
element of tell me a widow tell me you're a weirdo without telling me you're a weirdo of the messianic figure we've just sort of mentioned chasing people around to try and get them to read his manifesto and I have control I am more powerful than everyone when he's literally a loner in prison
00:19:47
Jen
ah Yeah, as soon as the word manifesting appears.
00:19:54
Red D
Who is writing manifestos? And if anyone ever asked me to read their manifesto, I'm out.
00:19:59
Jamie
And on what? it looks like its It looks like it's been written on Cured Spin on that one.
00:19:59
Jen
Block.
00:20:01
Red D
I'm out.
00:20:01
Jen
Yeah, just back away slowly.
00:20:04
Jen
Oh.
00:20:05
Jamie
like It looks like the creepiest thing ever. Yeah.
00:20:09
Jen
to
00:20:10
Red D
I thought he was like an interesting character because at first he seems like very dangerous by pure violence. I think he kills that.
00:20:18
Jen
He stabs or cuts someone's throat or something.
00:20:19
Red D
but such a hypocrite actually, which is I think the point. Then you see him writing and he seems like a bit erudite and you're like, okay, he's the intellectual in this prison. He's the leftist Karl Marx communist.
00:20:29
Jen
And he's meditating or advising.
00:20:30
Jamie
Do
00:20:32
Jen
Yeah.
00:20:33
Red D
I don't know what. and And then, i mean, now I'm throwing in another one of my points, but that scene that scene where he's saying, I know I'm meant to be here because I'm figuring out why this prison is being run this way.
00:20:40
Jamie
did it, do it. Guard of scope, guard of scope, guard of order.
00:20:47
Red D
I don't know if you noticed, but the shoot, the round shoot was like behind his head, like a halo while he was like,
00:20:51
Jamie
Yeah, no, it's, yeah.
00:20:53
Jen
Oh!
00:20:54
Red D
I'm meant to be here.
00:20:54
Jamie
Very effective.
00:20:55
Red D
ah have a purpose. And they're like, oh, okay, do I see. i kind of see what they're doing with this character.
00:20:59
Jamie
Yeah.
00:20:59
Red D
And then he's like, I can control myself and that's why people leave me alone.
00:21:00
Jamie
that's
00:21:04
Red D
And I could, like when Harry throws his manifesto on the ground, like any normal person would.
00:21:08
Jamie
c
00:21:09
Red D
And he's like, I could have killed you, but I didn't. But then, so he's like claiming to be all like in control and everything. But then he tries to get Harry to kill Tom. So i'm like, oh, you still want violence.
00:21:17
Jamie
Yeah.
00:21:19
Red D
You just don't want to do it yourself. Like, um,
00:21:21
Jamie
Yeah. and And the whole, we'll never be able to move ahead. If you're just held down by that guy, move ahead, where you're trapped down there. It's nothing.
00:21:30
Red D
Oh, yes, his plan of like progress is getting disciples and becoming the leader.
00:21:34
Jamie
Yeah.
00:21:36
Red D
It's like, no, we want to get out.
00:21:36
Jamie
Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:38
Red D
Why are you focused on this?
00:21:40
Jen
I just love that manifesto is associated with okay crazy person back away hilarious
00:21:40
Red D
That was...
00:21:43
Jamie
oh
00:21:45
Red D
But these people that, I mean, not to be like, well, it's very sad, but all these mass shooters, they always have like a manifesto.
00:21:46
Jamie
yeah
00:21:52
Red D
Like, what is the point?
00:21:54
Jamie
Yeah.
00:21:54
Red D
Why do you feel the compelled to do this?
00:21:55
Jamie
no one No one will do what you suggest they do because you've just shot a pile of people, you twathead.
00:22:02
Red D
Yeah.
00:22:02
Jamie
Which is slightly how I feel about Zio. Was it Zio you mentioned his name being?
00:22:06
Red D
See, oh yes, I just checked.
00:22:07
Jamie
Yeah, fair. Could I possibly move to a slightly lighter-hearted element of this that to consider? And I need to make the point that we now have to consider, and it is part of a dynamic that I really
Neelix's Heroism and Star Wars Parallels
00:22:22
Jamie
liked.
00:22:22
Jamie
ah the thing I don't know if i mentioned it before, but they changed something. They saved the Neelix comic relief. in this episode to the end so that I don't have to spend the entire episode having been annoyed by something completely jarring and I'm here for it.
00:22:42
Jamie
However, the change is so extreme they go too far that it's enraged me.
00:22:43
Red D
Oh
00:22:49
Jamie
They've made Eelix Luke Skywalker.
00:22:53
Jen
Well, he saves the day, really.
00:22:53
Jamie
They've made him an estate pilot who can, you know, outrun two fighters that apparently Voyager is scared to take in a fight. Apparently Neelix in a Talaxian cruiser can outrun and outmaneuver them off the prison station.
00:23:11
Jamie
I just like...
00:23:12
Red D
Well, he could go through the gaps. Isn't it that...
00:23:14
Jamie
Just...
00:23:14
Red D
mean, even as he flew off, was like, wow, good piloting.
00:23:17
Jamie
Yeah, that's...
00:23:17
Red D
And then the next scene was him saying how great he piloted his own ship. And I was like, okay...
00:23:22
Jamie
Well, I...
00:23:22
Jen
But wouldn't they just catch him after that?
00:23:23
Jamie
Yeah. Yes.
00:23:25
Jen
I mean, that's what I wondered as well. I did think that was... But presumably that that's what they're trying to say the storyline is.
00:23:28
Jamie
Yeah.
00:23:33
Jen
So it's not like a plot hole or anything, but it was maneuvering.
00:23:33
Jamie
yeah So, um can we talk about Nelix being Luke Skywalker and the patent fact this was an attempted diss at the Star Wars franchise? Yeah.
00:23:45
Red D
I don't know too much about Star Wars franchise, so...
00:23:47
Jamie
what What franchise is that? Sorry, just fill in a Star Trek podcast.
00:23:49
Red D
The Star Wars franchise, sorry.
00:23:50
Jamie
It's good to mention that franchise quite often to annoy people.
00:23:55
Red D
What is the first one? I finally watched that recently.
00:23:57
Jamie
a
00:23:57
Red D
The very, very first one, like, chronologically in time.
00:24:00
Jamie
Star Wars A New Hope? Or Episode I, The Phantom Menace?
00:24:03
Jen
No, that's really new, isn't it? No, no, no.
00:24:06
Red D
Phantom Menace. Is that it? I think I need to watch The Empire Strikes Back.
00:24:08
Jen
Wait.
00:24:10
Red D
Apparently that's very good.
00:24:12
Jen
That's really early.
00:24:12
Jamie
What?
00:24:13
Jen
Is that maybe the first one?
00:24:13
Red D
Yeah, that's what I- So I'm in the first one as in- no.
00:24:15
Jamie
People, I will have discipline. We will not be the Star Trek podcast that talks about Star Wars.
00:24:17
Red D
No, no. I'm in the first one as in the order that they came out. I'm not going into this dumb order of when they acknowledge the prequel.
00:24:23
Jamie
Not on my watch. I'm moderating this, and I moderate you in submission.
00:24:25
Red D
Okay.
00:24:28
Jamie
We are not doing a Star Wars podcast here. However, I...
00:24:31
Red D
But then I the references. think I need to watch-
00:24:34
Jamie
I know, but I am loving, loving the anarchic nature of the rebellion from you guys on this, just to throw in a rebellion reference.
00:24:40
Red D
Jane and I are really tired and we're just like, I'm just copy.
00:24:44
Jen
I'm just really glad Jamie's moderating.
00:24:45
Jamie
People...
00:24:46
Red D
Yes, me too.
00:24:47
Jamie
gone to chaos and we're here for it.
00:24:47
Jen
Great job.
00:24:49
Red D
Me too.
00:24:49
Jamie
we're We're emulating the spirit and feel of the episode. But that said, I'm going to ricochet over to Jenny. ah Let's hear it. Your next point.
00:25:00
Jen
Yes, well, now I'm back to positive. So all is good and well.
00:25:03
Jamie
It's a positive right, right?
00:25:04
Jamie
Over to you. thanks
00:25:04
Jen
is
00:25:05
Jen
no let me, oh, please, after, you know, i feel so bad being so negative and I couldn't even bring myself to say, you know, that I wasn't as enamored of Harry's acting in this one.
00:25:15
Jen
I had to let Red do the dirty work for me.
00:25:17
Red D
Yes.
00:25:18
Jen
oh
00:25:18
Jamie
Hmm.
00:25:18
Jen
yeah But you know, because I love Voyager. It's just, you know, can't love every single tiny thing about thinking. So that's my defense that I'm sticking to it. So now I get to stay on the positive side.
00:25:31
Jen
My favorite bit in this one um was obviously after they left the prison because
00:25:37
Red D
yes
00:25:38
Jen
or brother the horrible um i really like tom's delivery um of the line you want to know what i remember you saying this man is my friend no one touches him that's what i remember um that's just a really lovely little bromance moment between harry and tom
00:25:56
Jamie
all
00:25:57
Red D
Yes, I also really love that.
00:25:58
Jamie
was That was one of my favourite bits. and I will say adopting a serious persona for once.
00:26:01
Jen
yeah
00:26:06
Jamie
I think it's quite important because it shows that Harry is actually quite distressed when they sort of are through a storm, they have their debrief with the captain, when Tom tries to take him off to spaff a month's worth of replicated rations on everything they've been dreaming of, ah Harry doesn't look in a good place, and I think it's important that Tom reminds him of that.
00:26:31
Jamie
Yeah.
00:26:32
Jen
Yeah. I can understand Harry's desperate need to apologize.
00:26:34
Jamie
yeah
00:26:37
Jen
Like, I would feel the same, I think, you know, even though they weren't in their right mind, they had a clamp on their brain doing all sorts of madness, hormones increasing their aggression and all sorts.
00:26:38
Jamie
Hmm.
00:26:47
Jen
You would feel really bad and want to apologize. But I just like the way Tom handles it. I mean, he starts out with trying to talk over him about, you know, trivial things like delicious cherry pies. and And then, you know, when he does eventually um get his chance, Harry's chance to apologise he just cuts him off with that I want to know what I remember this man is my friend
00:27:11
Red D
Yeah, and he'll remember it for a long time. That was great moment.
00:27:14
Jen
yes that that was it, yeah that finished off
00:27:16
Jamie
I mean, can we can we talk about Janeway's leadership skills in this? Because I sort of feel like she should be noticing the fact that ah Harry is in pieces and doing something about it.
Captain Janeway's Leadership Evaluation
00:27:25
Jamie
And as the person who is a negative inevitably negative about anyone's leadership skills on this podcast, I'd like to throw open that question about Janeway's leadership approach, this podcast and people's reactions to it.
00:27:40
Jamie
Because I have one very, very important question ah that I would love to hear an answer to, but only after we've talked about Janeway's leadership skills. So, discuss. Is she up there with her peak skills and her peak moments, or is this a bit of a bad day for the diplomatic corps of Catherine Mulgrew?
00:28:03
Red D
Well, I think she was ah bit different this episode. Not necessarily in a good or bad way, but she she's obviously wants to get Tom and Harry back, but...
00:28:20
Red D
she kind of
00:28:24
Red D
results to threats and bluffs to kind of do that because when she can't negotiate diplomatically with the akritarians whatever and then they have those two they find that you actually planted the bomb um she's happy to send them to prison or at least act like she's definitely gonna send them back to that prison just to get harry and tom back and i was like oh
00:28:32
Jamie
Yeah.
00:28:45
Red D
and then um But there was a moment that I loved when that girl says to her, she's a coward. And her Kate Mulgrew's acting there was brilliant.
00:28:53
Jamie
Yeah.
00:28:54
Red D
But she was icy cold. And she's like, Tuvok, make sure they get a shower and a warm meal. I was like, she seemed so sinister there.
00:29:01
Jen
Yeah.
00:29:02
Jamie
I was like, is that a last meal? What the hell?
00:29:07
Red D
but More sinister than I've seen her.
00:29:07
Jen
She did. That
00:29:09
Red D
was like, ooh, okay.
00:29:11
Jen
expression, you're right. I was a bit confused by it, to be honest. I mean, I get that, you know, it can't be nice being called coward, especially when you're someone like Janeway, who's insanely brave.
00:29:23
Jen
um
00:29:23
Jamie
Jerusalem.
00:29:23
Jamie
Yeah. Well,
00:29:23
Jen
But yeah, it was such a strong reaction from the facial expression.
00:29:26
Red D
It was.
00:29:28
Jamie
I mean, a 12-year-old calling you a coward is never a good thing.
00:29:32
Jen
yeah That's true.
00:29:34
Jamie
Take it from me. That's interesting, because i my question is, why at the stage where it looks like she's being bullied out of sticking around for her crew members,
00:29:49
Jamie
by two piddly ships which presumably voyager being the biggest toughest nut in the sector could destroy why does she run off why doesn't she just disable them and say right you have a problem to deal with if you want to keep my crew members next question
00:30:07
Jen
Oh, I didn't find that. I found that completely in keeping, to be honest. and
00:30:13
Jamie
um
00:30:13
Jen
she She's not, I mean, ah currently she doesn't know that that this isn't a very um principled moral justice system. She doesn't know anything about the guitarians or the cause, but she knows that they've been arrested.
00:30:21
Jamie
I know. To me.
00:30:24
Jen
They've been accused of something and they've been arrested and she, and now, you know, understandably, if it was from, say, from our point of view, you've got an alien ship coming in.
00:30:26
Jamie
Hmm.
00:30:35
Jamie
Hmm.
00:30:35
Jen
you've found evidence that some of the crew members have done something illegal and so you put prison and then you've got the rest of their crew coming along and saying give them back, you know, without even attempting to adhere to the justice system.
00:30:42
Jamie
Hmm.
00:30:48
Jen
So I think what she does in that instance is right, you know, and she says, okay, we'll go back off. We'll go and find out who the true, try and find out who the true perpetrators are and then we can prove their innocence.
00:30:59
Jen
Because at that stage, she doesn't realise that it's a, what's the word, a banana, Banana justice system, is that thing?
00:31:05
Red D
but not Republicans.
00:31:05
Jamie
skin?
00:31:08
Jamie
Oh, Banana Republic.
00:31:09
Red D
Kangaroo court.
00:31:10
Jamie
Banana Republic.
00:31:10
Jen
Yes, kangaroo court, that basically they it doesn't even matter if they can prove their innocence, they're still going to be in prison.
00:31:11
Red D
so
00:31:15
Jamie
Yes.
00:31:16
Jen
clearly And at that point, I think she is willing to bluff and do anything because she realizes it's outrageous, I think is what she says.
00:31:17
Jamie
wait
00:31:19
Jamie
Yeah.
00:31:22
Jamie
Yeah. Agreed.
00:31:25
Jen
Not
00:31:25
Red D
Oh yes. It's an outrageous policy.
00:31:26
Jamie
seconds moderate yourselfve we it yourself Okay, don't moderate yourselves.
00:31:28
Red D
Moderate ourselves.
00:31:29
Jen
murdering ourselves.
00:31:30
Red D
Where's he gone? Moderate yourselves. But, um,
00:31:35
Jamie
Our feline commentator is there.
00:31:36
Red D
oh
00:31:37
Jen
oh there's a kitty
00:31:38
Jamie
And she hasn't even attacked anything, so it's all good. Right, anyway, as I was saying, play amongst yourselves.
00:31:42
Red D
I think I had another Jane...
00:31:46
Jamie
So we think we're behind her leadership style on this one, then, are we?
00:31:49
Jen
i don't think it was one of those that i thought wow you know jane was the best um but i i feel like yeah it was for me it was in keeping it was logical what she did and
00:31:58
Jamie
yeah although i knew um you've made some comments uh read about her attitude to being boarded yes
00:32:05
Red D
Yes, I did. I just gonna throw that in here because I thought it was quite funny and I guess they had to write a line to explain it. But the Akritarians at some point want to board Voyager. I was making some notes, so then I'm not sure what happened. I guess that's when Voyager withdraws.
00:32:18
Jamie
yes
00:32:18
Red D
Then when Voyager comes across the cargo ship and the two people who actually were responsible for the bomb, she's like, we're going to board you. And they're like no, we don't want you to board us.
00:32:26
Jamie
just
00:32:27
Red D
And Chakotay has this great line where he's like, I guess you're not the only captain who doesn't want this ship boarded.
00:32:32
Jamie
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:32:33
Red D
uh because it was kind hypocritical i guess because she had just like been very upset uh and then they'd be more of them aboard anyway was like well that is really useful technology that you can just pin these people aboard but uh a little a good line there from chakote to just kind of and acknowledge that kind of we didn't want to be boarded guess it's like they don't want to boarded either
00:32:39
Jamie
Mm-hmm.
00:32:43
Jamie
this this
00:32:50
Jen
That's a good point. Yeah.
00:32:53
Jamie
is
00:32:58
Jen
Thank you.
00:33:00
Jamie
Yeah, it's true. I mean, no i the more we talk about this, the more I actually feel that I enjoyed that episode, which is a bit weird of me. um I think it sort of tells as well that one of my favourite points in initial town was the same as yours, Jenny, about ah effectively saying, you know what I remember?
00:33:22
Jamie
guide saying, this man is my friend, no one touches him, is such a great line. It resonated for me as well, and in spite of all of the old stuff here, so yeah.
00:33:32
Jamie
ah I'm willing to put it up there as a good episode, albeit one that you know gripped me rather than touching me, if that makes sense.
00:33:37
Jen
you.
00:33:41
Red D
hmm it's a good tom and harry episode and like propels their friendship
00:33:47
Jamie
a That's true. um I hey think I have exhausted my points. Jenny, did you have any more yourself that struck you on this one, or read I think you are engaged so you get us over that finish line.
00:34:04
Red D
um yes i think i've got one more but um I did love the scene, that's not my point, where they make it to the top of the chute. Harry has collaborated with this year they up the stop the...
00:34:13
Jamie
Hmm.
00:34:18
Jamie
Hmm.
00:34:19
Red D
I can't. The wave that pushes them back, a force field whatever or And they get to the top and they're expecting... know what they're expecting, but what they see is definitely not what Harry was expecting, which is looking out into space and there's just like a...
00:34:29
Jamie
Yeah, it's a little...
00:34:31
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:34:31
Jamie
Massive prison complex.
00:34:36
Red D
Yeah, a massive prison complex floating in space and they just reach to kind of like portal. I don't know what the time
00:34:43
Jamie
It
00:34:43
Red D
And you they can't escape from like
00:34:46
Jamie
is, yeah, and it's a little bit... um Again, i always reference The Matrix because it takes from so many different...
00:34:53
Red D
Well, this is a reference I can get.
00:34:55
Jamie
So many, so many sort of different science fiction traditions. But in this instance, I'm very much reminded of that moment where
Realization of Prison's Vastness
00:35:04
Jamie
Neo has woken up from being in the Matrix and sort of finally gets clear of his pot and takes a look around.
00:35:04
Red D
Ah, yes.
00:35:12
Jamie
And he's gone out of his little computerized universe. He's looking at reality and it just scales out and scales out and scales out.
00:35:18
Red D
Yes.
00:35:19
Jamie
it's like this whole infrastructure of darkness is like so much bigger than anticipated. And that's kind of that moment where they get to the chute.
00:35:26
Red D
Yeah.
00:35:29
Jamie
Harry realizes the hatch is a window and he's rubbing it clean. He looks out and it's like, oh my gosh, it's space. And we're not in Alcaterrion planet, on the Alcaterrion planet.
00:35:40
Jamie
We're in outer space. and It's endless.
00:35:44
Red D
And it's just gotten a little lot harder.
00:35:45
Jen
Thank you.
00:35:46
Jamie
Yeah.
00:35:46
Red D
and like, yeah.
00:35:48
Jamie
I think that's a really well-done moment.
00:35:48
Red D
ah
00:35:50
Red D
Yeah, very good moment. But ah speaking of Harry, I think this is... I just felt really bad for him when he was trying to get people to collaborate because he's used to being on Voyager and Starfleet where people...
00:36:03
Jamie
Inside of the angels. Hmm.
00:36:05
Red D
And trying to get these people... I mean, he really was losing his mind a little bit just because people but not interested.
00:36:08
Jamie
Hmm.
00:36:11
Red D
you Like, they...
00:36:12
Jamie
Hmm.
00:36:13
Red D
um I just felt bad for him. He's really not on Voyager anymore. But, yeah. he He still did very well, I would say.
00:36:22
Jamie
Yeah, that's fair. No, I really enjoyed this one.
00:36:26
Red D
there you go.
00:36:28
Jamie
Right, themes. Hit me, people.
00:36:32
Jen
Well, I'm going to go because I only, with my entire time frame, can think of one. So I'm going say it before anyone else does. supply Survival.
00:36:37
Jamie
Better?
00:36:37
Red D
Go for it.
00:36:39
Jen
Survival. Survival of the fittest and, you know, survival at any cost in some cases.
00:36:47
Red D
Yes. And I mean, that's a good theme actually, because different people took different approaches to survival in this prison.
00:36:47
Jen
don't see.
Survival Strategies and Friendship
00:36:54
Red D
But the people there were not, it's funny how, I mean, it's not really funny because that's the point of the episode, but to carry and Tom's come in for someone to actually try escape, not just survive.
00:37:08
Red D
I think the other people are so worn down.
00:37:08
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:37:12
Jamie
Agreed. um I'm going to go with a different one, which I can't believe that didn't reference more, but the fact that this very much reminds me of a series called, classic series called The Prisoner with Pat, the incredibly named Patrick McGowan, which is an iconic series that I recommend everyone go and watch. And I think there was actually an American remake of it.
00:37:33
Jamie
um But again, that idea of a never-ending struggle for escape from a closed circle of an environment, and in many ways reflecting the struggle undertaken by Q as he tries to escape, I nearly said the mortal coil, but what I mean is the mortal existence in a previous episode.
00:37:41
Red D
Yeah.
00:37:50
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:37:55
Jamie
I think it's previous episode that we've covered.
00:37:56
Red D
yeah
00:37:58
Jamie
And I think that's the theme, and perhaps more of a theme in Voyager than I realise, this attempt to escape from a closed wheel. um Yeah.
00:38:10
Jamie
Also, Weetabix. Worth killing for.
00:38:14
Red D
oh yeah well by my my theme is a very obvious one i guess but friendship and um you can punch your friend in the guts he can try kill you back later but that it doesn't really matter if you're really true friends and you have each other's back all friendships have their ups and downs i guess
00:38:30
Jamie
excuse
00:38:38
Jamie
I
00:38:38
Red D
but they're true true friends
00:38:40
Jen
Noted. Oh dear. Jamie's noted.
00:38:42
Red D
Okay.
00:38:43
Jen
He's allowed stab his friends.
00:38:45
Red D
so like
00:38:45
Jen
Yeah.
00:38:47
Jamie
i was not treating that as an attempt to set a ah boundary of you can touch the stomach but not the face for a fist fight but if you guys feel that I should well I'll take that into consideration right then star players
00:39:04
Jen
I have my list this time around.
00:39:07
Red D
okay
00:39:07
Jen
Yeah, so you know, usually I'm like, leave me to last I can't choose. But yeah, just because I love that line, choose Tom. And also I hardly ever choose Tom.
00:39:15
Red D
ah
00:39:17
Jen
So I feel like this is the opportunity. Oh,
00:39:21
Red D
Nice.
00:39:21
Jamie
T Paris, T Payne for the win. Red?
00:39:26
Red D
I am actually, know was the one that said what I said earlier, but I'm going pick Harry.
00:39:31
Jamie
I said what i said.
00:39:31
Jen
ah o
00:39:32
Jamie
Sorry, just went to do something.
00:39:33
Red D
ah Because he did a lot in this episode.
00:39:34
Jamie
so i just let's do
00:39:38
Red D
And ah I would say he he carried, he still carried the episode. And But his character did save the day, basically. I mean, well, you know, it's always that you always have to meet Janeway halfway, but he he he was there doing what he could to get up.
00:39:55
Red D
So, yeah, Harry's my star player.
00:39:59
Jamie
I continue my theme of going with inanimate objects or objets I'm going to go with whichever AI program was assisting Neelix in piloting his cruiser to get them out of there without that
00:40:12
Red D
So, indirectly, Neelix is your star player.
00:40:14
Jamie
Without that, Neelix gets them all killed.
00:40:14
Red D
Yeah.
00:40:17
Jamie
I think we can tell from previous experiences that he is not someone you want to be trusting with a high-stakes endeavour, especially not if there's any degree of skill involved.
00:40:28
Red D
I'm not sure that's true, but I don't have the energy to argue that right now.
00:40:32
Jen
Yeah.
00:40:34
Red D
Oh, very good, Jamie.
00:40:35
Jamie
Right. No problem. That was an absolute pleasure, Mere Chérie. Is it time to cue the finishing music? Any final thoughts?
00:40:43
Red D
Yes. Oh, I did have one question. Sorry. I'm just going to throw this in here.
00:40:47
Jamie
Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, DQ, DQ the music. Stop playing the music so loudly.
00:40:52
Red D
Uh... If you were in prison, although you don't be in prison, but you were somewhere where you hadn't eaten for four days, would your strategy be to fantasize about all the food you're going to eat one day or try not to think about food?
00:41:05
Red D
Because they were obviously, they obviously were like, we used this like fantasizing about food as a coping mechanism, but i'm like, I'm not sure that would work for me.
00:41:05
Jamie
I really thought... Oops, sorry.
00:41:15
Jen
I had the same thought I gotta say i I mean maybe though because if you're that hungry you're so starving and it's all you can think about maybe if you try and visualise eating somehow you'll feel full I don't know
00:41:25
Red D
Yeah.
00:41:30
Red D
Maybe. This is curious.
00:41:32
Jamie
I well I would like to draw your attention to the fact of the Delaney sisters presence in this episode as the way in which they fantasize about filling an appetite that doesn't have to do with food
00:41:41
Red D
ah
00:41:47
Red D
Or it's not fullable at that point in time, I guess is the parallel.
00:41:52
Jamie
well I mean they can't fill themselves with the Delaney sisters there either but you know such stuff
00:41:57
Red D
that's okay and on that note I'll stop playing this single but thank you Jamie great moderating okay Jenny you're up next time and the next episode is the swarm
00:41:59
Jen
Yeah.
00:42:00
Jamie
what are you trying to say there always always
00:42:01
Jen
Time to cut.
00:42:09
Jen
Oh, okay.
00:42:14
Jen
oh
00:42:14
Jamie
swarm argh i don't know why getting with pirate accent but yeah go with it
00:42:21
Red D
so thanks guys And see you next time.
00:42:29
Jamie
Oh, Titi is very unhappy about me being loud. Hello, Moya.
00:42:34
Red D
and stop.