Transcript
Red D: And hitting our jingle. Ajayini, I know you find this jingle too long, so just let me know when to start.
Jen: It's so long!
Jamie: is It always varies, doesn't it?
Jen: It's not a jingle, it's the song.
Jamie: like We're always like, is it longer this week? Has it sped up? Do you have your secret podcast people doing weird things with it, Red? And I don't just mean lengthening it and extending it.
Red D: No!
Red D: What is strange is that my view has changed, but I guess...
Jen: ah Oh!
Red D: um Maybe... um There we go.
Jamie: Is it because I've put that the cat has grown toxic masculinity?
Jen: This is where I'd end it.
Red D: but Okay.
Jen: I think when the beat comes in, you know, and then that's
Red D: Yeah, good point.
Jamie: Wait, why have we gone down?
Jen: that sir
Jamie: I really like the beat.
Jen: Yeah, so that's like the funky beat coming in and then and then a fade out just after it's...
Jamie: ah So why don't we listen to the funky beat?
Red D: Maybe we should know how to do this two seasons into our own podcast, but maybe we should start talking over the beat and then and the in editing, I can fade it out to something.
Jamie: Maybe we should try this again.
Jen: Oh, fancy.
Jamie: Well, I thought that was what we were doing. Except someone seems to have ended it early.
Red D: Well, you know that there's normally no editing, but I could maybe do that.
Jen: I was gonna say, yeah, aren't we edit free? I mean, don't wanna pile more work onto you, right?
Jamie: i i just much you thought that was a useful fiction that you told us.
Red D: No, it's the truth.
Jamie: Yeah, what I said, a useful fiction.
Red D: so ready It's it's like at least 20 minutes work to, let's say a little bit more to set up each podcast and produce each podcast, which is more than enough time, I think.
Red D: Oh no.
Jen: oh well I think you know we've got to season two and we still have not said ah huge thank you to Red for being the founder the founder and the sometimes editor and the also administrative leader of the podcast so round applause for Red
Jamie: So there is some editing.
Jamie: Yes. Yes indeed, you are correct. We have not yet thanked her and that will continue. no next Yeah,
Red D: Yes. Sorry, that wasn't me digging for couple of minutes.
Jen: but
Red D: That was just me saying what did a ridiculously small amount of time I spent.
Jen: We know, we know, but it is a really good point that came to mind that we should do the, we should do the thank yous, you know.
Jamie: thank you. It's amazing. Yes, and any of our listeners who are listening should also thank Red, as without them, the experience of listening to our dulcet tones, presumably in accents distinct to their own, ah would not happen.
Jen: um
Red D: Yes.
Jen: Yay, Red!
Red D: Sorry. Sorry, I kind of distracted because I was trying to see if there was this like a little soundboard and that I have. And I was like, is there like some applause jingle that I could have played? But there's only...
Jen: Oh yeah.
Jen: Oh nice. I like it. ah Yeah, I know to see, you know, these days on teams, you have all kinds of emoticon reactions and people can do the little clappy hands and it looks like we only have hands up.
Red D: Oh, yes.
Jen: Yeah, that's sorry, Jay, hands up. It's not the same with clappy hands.
Jamie: Well, my question was going to be how do I access that sound? But I feel for reasons of sanity and self-preservation, the two might make available to me.
Red D: Oh my god. All I can say is I'm so glad that I was the one that found this tool and set it up. Otherwise you would have access.
Jamie: I bet you wouldn't be so glad if in finding it you'd made it known to me.
Jen: if
Red D: Oh
Jen: I don't know Red, I mean on a recent workshop for work we we were handling virtual breakout groups and virtual whiteboards so you know we're down with the time
Red D: oh wow.
Red D: Yeah, but no, no, I think, I'm sure you could handle it. i'm just don't know if ja Jamie could hold himself back from doing the bullpog sound.
Jen: times.
Jamie: I mean...
Jen: Well I tell you what Jay, you can get it out system now because
Red D: Frequently.
Jen: We need the one minute summary for you. From you, sorry.
Jamie: And I'm not allowed to do it through either interpretive dance or... Yeah, okay. I am slightly reminded, actually, of the Paul Merton show, which we saw where someone had to pretend to be speaking a foreign language while someone interpreted for them in a very realistic way, which could be an improv thing that we try here.
Jamie: In any case, yes?
Jen: And up, and up. I forgot to say which episode it was.
Red D: Oh, well done.
Jamie: Yeah, I mean, I was going to do the swarm again, but as you've reminded me, Sacred Ground.
Jen: Whoops.
Jen: So, yes, sorry.
Jamie: Which episode is it?
Jen: Terrible, terrible facilitating job today. um So we are on ah season... Oh, season three. Goodness. i thought we were still season.
Red D: Oh yeah, even I forgot that earlier.
Jen: Oh, wow. Season three, episode seven, Sacred Ground. Off you go, Dick.
Jamie: Okay, Season 3, Episode 7, Sacred Ground. This episode finds our intrepid crew focusing on the exploits, and indeed the ployt, or plight, of Kez, who has gone down to the planet, populated by a species called the Nakai, and along with Neelix, which should have been a massive red flag to anyone organising the shore leave to tail,
Jamie: wandered into a sacred shrine whereupon she has been zapped by energy wave, rendered unconscious and on the very edge of death, and the episode centres on the crew's efforts to find a cure for her and latterly focuses on the captain and her efforts to undertake a sacred cleansing ritual to commune with the spirits believed to reside within the shrine in order to save Kez's life.
Red D: Nice.
Jen: Very nice. Good summary.
Jamie: You are both very welcome. I do find myself viewing this episode through a very particular lens though, and I'm sure it won't surprise you guys what it is when we get into it.
Red D: Is it got something to do with Battlestar Galactica? That's normally your reference.
Jamie: No! No!
Red D: I'm teasing.
Jamie: Absolutely not!
Jen: I don't think I can guess either.
Red D: I'm teasing.
Jen: I'm intrigued.
Red D: I guess he'll Get into it later.
Jen: You're going to reveal it later. Okay, okay. So initial reactions in that case then. um And I can see we've moved down two. And the second one is going to, I think, follow on from the first one.
Jen: So but the first one was me, which was that I couldn't remember this at all again. um But I realized after having taken that note that it was just that the starter, like scene or or teaser, is a bit of a, it throws you off the center a bit.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: because it's quite Neelix and Kes focused.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And actually, then when it got into the meat of the episode, it's all quite Janeway focused.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And that's when I remembered it, basically. um It was just at the start, you think it's going to be one about Kes and Neelix. And then turns out that Kes is unconscious for the rest of it. So I remembered it in the end.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: Yes, well, as you saw, i put under your statement, me too, because for the first, I know, five, seven, eight minutes, I had no memories.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Then I had a memory that doesn't exist, but could conceivably have been in this episode, which was of Janeway in a white shroud, like, or white, like, um like in that, like, you know, let's say, let's call it religious God, but
Jamie: susan
Red D: In my memory, it was pale and she had like a hood. But then she never wore that in this episode.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: So I don't know where that memory came from.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Ooh, I wonder what that one's from.
Red D: But I kind of realized she was going to have to do this like kind of challenge or the spiritual journey to save Kess. It kind of came back to me.
Red D: But it took ages.
Jen: So possibly not memorable one. Although I did really enjoy it in the end, so maybe it's not, you know, sometimes I think, oh, is it a bit forgettable?
Jen: It's because it's not particularly good one, but I quite liked it in the end, so I don't know why.
Jamie: What?
Red D: Yeah, me neither.
Jamie: No
Jen: And I see we have one cool thing.
Jamie: way!
Red D: Oh, yes. I actually just spotted it because wanted to check something else. And I was like, when we saw Tom Paris on the bridge, I was like, oh, he was hardly in this episode because he was directing.
Jamie: one what
Jen: Oh, it was one of Tom Paris's.
Red D: So Robert Duncan McNeil.
Jen: Oh.
Red D: Oh, gosh, I can never. Yeah, Robert is.
Jamie: Robert Duncan McNeil.
Red D: Is that his name? I'm like getting i just assuming I'm getting it wrong.
Jen: I think that's right.
Red D: So yeah, he was directing.
Jen: Here's a bit of a mouthful of his name, to be fair.
Red D: Thank you.
Jen: Like hyphenated and everything. um Oh, wow. Well, I think he did a great job. Not that I know anything about directing, but seem good.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: And also who was mad enough to throw him the keys?
Jen: What?
Red D: Well, it was that the actor, not the crazy character, I guess. Yeah.
Jamie: Can't let the lunatics take over the asylum though, sure surely there's something against that.
Jen: Okay, on to... thoughts and comments I'm gonna go backwards because it just doesn't seem right for the moderator to go first that's that's too good um so I'm gonna get over to Red
Jamie: Yes.
Jamie: There you go.
Red D: Okay, gosh. Well, yes, I do have quite lot comments. don't have to go through them all. But I...
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: This is such a tiny comment. But I think... I don't know we've seen it yet with Kez, but she can be really strong-willed in a certain ways, which I think gets stronger in future episodes.
Jamie: Mm. Mm.
Jamie: Mm.
Red D: And then you know it really culminates. But when she wants to do something, even though she's very accommodating and kind and empathetic and whatever, she's like, I'm going to do it. I'm going walk up to this shrine, whether I'm supposed to or not, or whether we're supposed to meet the others or not.
Red D: It was just like an edge in the way she delivered that line. Or maybe I'm reading this through a very particular lens. I don't know. But, um, which I think it makes her more interesting.
Red D: Like, cause I know she's everyone's favorite character, but sometimes I'm like, or I sometimes I almost thought of a, this is a bit of a stretch, but I'm like, well, maybe she's in the toddler stage of development because she's,
Jen: Hmm.
Red D: you know, she's actually only three years old now or something. She's like, I'm going to look at that thing.
Jamie: I mean, i really i really want to stay away from that because that leads to some very, very wider context problematic questions.
Red D: ah
Jamie: But I'd also like to throw in the challenge, is she strong-willed or is she just being like a rubbish tourist?
Red D: No, because I think ah she didn't really do anything wrong and she wasn't really being that inconsiderate even though, like, were they not allowed?
Jamie: You wasn't allowed to go to that shrine.
Red D: Were they told that?
Red D: ah cause ah Yeah, I'm not sure.
Jamie: Well, I mean, you could say that, but then you've...
Red D: You could say she could have sensed that perhaps they weren't supposed to. Oh,
Jamie: Yeah, isn't...
Red D: ah
Jamie: yeah I could say something about that too. In fact, you've sort of put your finger in two directions that I want to engage in, but on my points.
Red D: go for it.
Jamie: So I'm not going to do that. No, no, no, no, I would would give my points away far too early and far too cheaply.
Red D: It's not a game.
Jen: oh
Red D: Okay. ah okay
Jen: Well, I definitely agree. think that's part of her character, isn't it? That she has that like strong-willed side.
Jamie: What?
Jen: And I mean, she originally came onto the Voyager by like wanting to explore above ground. which is very unlike the rest of her race or her species.
Jamie: Is Kez Borg?
Jen: So I guess it's, yeah, it makes sense as part of the character. And I'm also thinking about this later episodes where she, I think we get like evil, evil cast, you know, like alternate reality or whatever it is.
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: what is kes a ball
Red D: No, but she gets more stronger and stronger willed against this time.
Jen: No, I think,
Jen: yeah, yeah. So she's, this is a start.
Jamie: This is...
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: well
Jen: Over to you, Jake.
Jamie: Fair enough. I mean, i think really, I'll probably be all, not with the first point that I was going to, but with ah your whole thing of she doesn't know that she's not supposed to be there.
Jamie: I would like to point out that for an episode which is about sort of psych and convenience psychic communion with spirits, can I just talk about another episode where the psychic staff of Voyager epically underperformed? I mean, Chakotay, my man,
Jamie: Vision quests are your thing. Where are you this episode? Oh, my days. ah So that that's Chikoshi done. Kes herself, you know, theoretically psychic at some stage or to some degree.
Jamie: Where is she? um
Red D: Well, she's knocked out.
Jamie: And as for Tuvok, who is also supposed to be psychic to some sort of degree, we we need to talk about the underperformance of the psychic staff here.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Red D: First of all, a telepathic.
Jamie: off
Red D: Some telepathic.
Jamie: Oh, telepathic. Potato, potato.
Red D: And the only case is truly telepathic. And maybe they didn't sense anything because they aren't any spiritual guides there?
Jamie: It quacks.
Red D: Maybe it's all scientific.
Jamie: ah It quacks and not like a platypus. Although I'm going to say my way of response to that.
Red D: I'm just making...
Jamie: And also, you know, again, Chakotay, the king of the spirit guide, a spirit quests. Where art thou this episode?
Red D: That is probably a fair comment to make about Kiz because should she not have sent something? Or maybe she did send something and that drew her in. Hmm.
Jen: well that's what I got yeah exactly that but maybe she was hearing voices you know that no one else could hear because they don't have that telepathic ability telling her to go to that archway
Jen: never know
Jamie: I'm just saying yeah I think my my does not meet expectations for the psychic or telepathic spirit quest guide of the ship sounds good
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Glad to hear you both endorse it by you know not arguing.
Jen: Okay, let let's see, what did I put down? Oh, well, i have I have some, you know, slightly critical later notes. So I'm i'm starting with my positive one, um which I really like when they have episodes where there's bit of a crossover between ancient culture and rituals and story storytelling that then actually links up with scientific fact.
Jamie: tomorrow
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: um I love throughout this whole episode that there was this, um there was actually a scientific explanation for all of it.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Even in the end scene, the doctor could come up with a scientific explanation for why all happened.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: um But you know the whole reason that they were able to say guess in that way is because they read and an ancient old fable in a book, you know and then they based their scientific theory on that.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: um And i just I just kind of love that, I don't know why, but the idea that you think these are myths and legends and and you know nonsense, and sometimes I'm sure they are, but also, you know it i always think, well, it would be arrogant to just dismiss it completely.
Jen: because you know some sometimes these things come from somewhere that is based in fact. um So that's why I like the episodes that have that crossover.
Jamie: Yeah, that makes me, I like that.
Red D: yeah that's a great point sorry jamie
Jamie: I really like that. No, no, I really like that, that was all.
Jen: It also there reminded me of Deep Space Nine.
Red D: was that yes i saw your comments so can you elaborate why because i had a theory but i wasn't sure if it was correct
Jen: Oh, you know, I thought you might ask me to elaborate and I was like, oh, this is why i wasn't sure whether to put it in because I'm not sure I can. You know, when you just think something about it reminds me of that.
Jen: There's something about the Explains of Mind because I know there's this whole, I remember there's this whole spiritual element, but I feel like there's also quite a lot of scientific background that goes into the spiritual element, but I don't feel like I remember it well enough to explain why.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Oh yeah, thought maybe was just because they have the wormhole and the...
Jamie: a
Red D: And people treat... And there's Like they ask these unknown spurts behind the wormhole, in the wormhole, the other wormhole, that do act as...
Red D: Guys to some people, like Sisko. Oh yeah, so I was just curious. But i also haven't watched Deep Space Nine in a while, so...
Jen: Yeah, it's been a while, but I feel like there's, if I'm remembering correctly, they sort of are recognising him as some kind of Messiah or something. um
Red D: Yes.
Jen: But also there is some reasons behind that that aren't just spiritual. So there's a bit...
Jamie: Is he a bit of a naughty boy?
Jen: I don't know. I don't get what... Oh, okay.
Jamie: He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
Jen: oh okay
Jamie: I swear it was too easy.
Red D: ah okay
Jen: Yeah, sorry, I afraid that one went right over my head. But yeah, Monty Python.
Jamie: Yes, it wasn't a highbrow, believe me, but it was fun.
Jen: Love it.
Jen: Are you saying Monty Python isn't highbrow? Outrageous. So,
Jamie: a I mean, I don't do I have the the armless knight behind me? If I don't, then no.
Jen: so back red.
Red D: um Okay. um ah For a second there, I was like, wait, do have to do my points backwards? So I wouldn't do my last point because we're doing this reverse reverse round.
Jen: Hey, if you want to mix it up.
Red D: But um i
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: I did really enjoy and this like ah probably a lesson for everyone there, but the conversation between Janeway and Chakotay in preparation for her to go down and do this...
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: um I'm calling it a spiritual challenge. I don't know if that was really the right term. Because he's like... She's like, oh, I'm definitely going to find scientific explanations for everything that's happened. And he's like, yeah you know so couldn't she be open to the fact that there could be like some other elements going on? And she's like, no, I'm not convinced that it's going to be really scientific. and But they...
Red D: they don't get upset with each other. They love each other so much that they can have a civil conversation and look at each other and be like, oh yeah, you would say that because that's what you believe in. Yeah, you would say that because that's what you believe in.
Red D: Kind of as what the woman says later on, none of this matters. um
Jamie: Well, maybe you believe that.
Red D: No, but I'm just saying like, ah it was great to have this, you know, up,
Jen: Like a grown up conversation and
Red D: but grown up conversation modeled to people that have a differentness of opinion that touches at the core of their beliefs.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: But they...
Jen: They're able to respect each other's...
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: yeah.
Red D: Sorry, I really enjoyed that.
Jen: Yeah, I completely get that. And this is um kind of unrelated Red, but I was just looking through your talking points and I noticed you are able...
Jamie: yeah
Jen: you've put something in them, but that throughout my talking points, was desperate to do but didn't know how to. And that is, you've got the laughing, crying emoji.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: So
Jen: i And I, you know, it's such, apparently it's such a millennial thing. But I was desperate to use it for for my talking points.
Red D: do you want to do it?
Jen: And in particular, in a similar way, you've used it, which I think we'll get onto, to for a lot of the things that the guide says.
Red D: yeah
Jen: ah so So um I'm going to have to like copy and paste that because, yeah, I just,
Red D: You know why I can do it? It's because I do my notes on my phone.
Jen: Oh, that that's the thing, yeah.
Red D: So when I'm watching, yeah, yeah.
Jen: Because I know how to do my phone, but not in the docks.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Thank you.
Red D: But now you have it.
Jen: Now I have it! Yes! Over to you, Jay.
Jamie: That's fair enough. In which case, it's quite interesting seeing someone else highlight my net as I do. I would like to point out that I see this episode through a very particular lens.
Jamie: And that is the lens that we get started on this with a familiar conceit, which is Neelix visiting a planet, something going wrong, and it all going into absolute chaos.
Jamie: shambles. I'd just like to say this is another example of it.
Jen: But it wasn't, but Neelix was saying don't go near the arch.
Jamie: He was in the room, he was in the room, he was part of the individuals violating the tourist restrictions. I am sorry, that makes him guilty in my view.
Jen: He was holding her back.
Red D: you know but um when people
Jen: Sorry, I've got
Jamie: Even he said it He felt like he should have held it back too.
Red D: ah in lots of like rewatch podcasts whatever people will start tracking things like how many times the pock plot moves or how many times
Jamie: yeah
Jen: of
Red D: out of this bad, i don't know, something. And i was like, if only we'd been tracking this metric of Janies of how many times Neelix is the cause of all the disaster and the episode.
Jen: Oh!
Jamie: Well, I'm tracking it now. We got one for one.
Red D: Yeah, so we'll ah start tracking.
Jen: You're making a tally.
Jamie: And and i I am going to track it aggressively, no matter how tenuous. If he's the problem, it will be known about.
Red D: You gotta...
Jen: Oh, so mean! Poor Neelix.
Jamie: I know, we love it really though.
Jen: But I don't think you can count this one. I mean, come on, this is Kes.
Jamie: Watch me, I just did.
Red D: Jamie's going to go out and buy a new journal and a special pen. So I'm trying this.
Jamie: pen.
Red D: Yes, one of those.
Jen: Felix hatred.
Jamie: The ink's colour will be green for my vicious vendetta.
Red D: I thought it was going to be one of those pens that like change color or something.
Jamie: Rita's scissors pen.
Red D: I don't know.
Jen: Oh yeah, depending on your mood.
Red D: ah
Jen: Red for anger.
Jamie: will never change colour, because my mood is set constantly to fury about Neelix's unsafe interactions and disrespect for tourist restrictions.
Red D: Aww.
Jamie: Anyway, I think that's quite enough of my impersonal vendetta. I feel that maybe we have more upbrow things to engage with about this episode than me and my relationship with a fictional character.
Jen: Well, I don't know about that because my next point is not about Lennox, but it's along the same vein.
Jamie: Don't say it.
Jen: of um So, ah the guide. I mean, can we just talk about the guide for a moment? Like, ah worst see because she Because her appearance is so...
Jamie: Oh
Jamie: oh
Red D: Why?
Red D: I'm going to go and delete your point. What's happening?
Jamie: I have a whole point for the opposition for this, actually.
Jen: Oh okay, okay so it's just me then. Okay that's fine, I'm fine with that.
Red D: No, no, I think, no, no, go ahead.
Jamie: Well, whenever we we let's each put our case because, you know,
Red D: Go ahead.
Red D: I think I might actually have a point that is on Jenny's side. oops, go ahead, Jenny.
Jen: Yeah, hurrah!
Jamie: And Red, I think you've disappointed all of the ancestors.
Jen: She's, I just found her enter it entrance so cringy and she's so patronizing and antagonistic and this whole really try hard to be mysterious.
Jamie: And me.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: um And honestly, she actually in a little bit, which is maybe why she aggraves me a bit, she she a little bit reminds me of certain young religious types that I met at university back in the day, which is um so sure of themselves and and very patronizing No, but they,
Red D: But they did not speak in this many riddles, I'm sure.
Jamie: well i wouldn't be so sure about that because they're always they i know the type that jenny is alluding to they would always they would always delight in the fact that you can never prove a negative i mean i say this someone who's religious himself and sort of sees both sides of this coin
Jen: no but they
Jamie: And the type that Jenny is talking about would probably act quite similar to this sort of guide as though they know something that you don't and can never prove doesn't exist and always sort of keep throwing those sorts of things at you, which is bit infuriating.
Jen: Yeah, it's a really sort of antagonistic attitude. it's It's sort of,
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: oh, you believe in science, do you? Oh, well, I know better than that, you know, with my faith.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: It's just not something you could ever like win against, which du you know you don't want to win against you, you know, each to their own.
Jamie: But then they they come to antagonize you and that's kind of difficult.
Jen: And, you know, that's the thing, like, it's not that, you know, you're antagonistic in response.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: So it's it's really annoying. And she reminds me of that.
Red D: So this happened a lot on university.
Jamie: Yeah, Many of whom fun time you humans.
Jen: ah Well, the reading I went to was,
Red D: Okay.
Jen: like it had a lot of religious students.
Red D: okay
Jen: I think it was one of the sort of top for theology in the country or something.
Red D: Oh, okay.
Jamie: many Many of them were fantastic humans, but some of them were just like everything that you don't want from fundamentalism.
Red D: Sorry.
Jen: Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, like I don't, I don't, I have fond memories of them as people, like there were they were lovely people, but you get into a discussion with them and they're so aggravating, like they're just, they're just,
Jamie: Yeah. there There isn't much tolerance and there isn't much discussion.
Jen: yeah, yeah.
Jamie: or even much you know acceptance that there may be uncertainty in certain things.
Jen: I remember them fondly.
Jamie: Again, let's say this to someone who is religious, and it annoyed even me. You all right?
Red D: Yes, I'm just trying not to wrap my cable on my jacket. Maybe I'll... But in case so you can hear it, sorry. That's why I'm fiddling.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: No, you're all good, you're all good. But yeah, she's just, she's, um yeah, she, she rubbed me off the wrong way. What do you think, Red?
Red D: Yeah, well, I did write a few points about it, and I think... I mean, I found... i always find these kind of episodes, I think, as a writer, I'm like, how do you make this come across as
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: reason, like, and you know what they're trying to achieve, right? Like, there's this guy, they've got to make this twist, so there is some kind of miracle, but it's still going to be, like, I think it's quite a hard thing to pull off, writing-wise, to give this person dialogue, which I think, I mean, as i one of my notes, I think one of the first things is, and I don't know a lot about mythology and the hero's journey and the
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm. Yeah.
Red D: like But there's definitely the guide the guide in disguise trope. So it starts off where she's like, oh, thank goodness she was helpful to that woman because it turns out she's her guide.
Jamie: yeah
Red D: you know And like she could have failed at the first hurdle by dismissing her or whatever.
Jamie: The face paint.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: um And then she has to speak in all these riddles. And yes, she's infuriating.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: But she reminded me because she had that like tattoo or ah face face paint along the side.
Jamie: yeah spen
Red D: and i was I'm sure this was not intentional, but it reminded me of that microphone that you saw a lot like on stage like with those big self-help gurus like Tony Robbins or like whatever, like that that image of those guys on stage with those kind of self-help people.
Jen: Oh.
Jen: Oh, yeah.
Jamie: in
Jen: that
Red D: So I did pick up, I guess, just ah on, I guess, like you're saying, the cheesiness in a sense, maybe. or But I don't think she...
Red D: and't Even though I wrote those things, I don't think she annoyed me as much as she annoys you.
Jamie: Well, I see the thing is even though can I can i interject with my thoughts on the same one because i almost reverse point in that i i found her to be that sort of liminal as you say guide between the realm of the county and the uncanny that you talk about i i quite like that as a liminal uh sort of figure not dissimilar from the anansi uh one that you occasionally get in neil guyman books with that playfulness always sort of taking advantage of the fact that she can hide in the realm of well you can't totally ever disprove something there's always space to it but it might be x or it might be y um you know with with that sort of question okay you can come up with an explanation for what has happened here at the molecular level but that doesn't mean that that wasn't the tool through which something divine uncanny
Jamie: spiritual operated and she sort of seems to inhabit that negative space from which she delights in sort of teasing and tormenting well not tormenting teasing and laughing at Jane where she guides her through her journey and so I i sort of I so saw that and I enjoyed it I possibly didn't take against it as strongly as Jenny did ah because I recognised the character or the trope and I didn't find her too annoying.
Jamie: But, you know, it it's all relative. I did find it interesting the first way, though, in which she interacted with Janeway, which was such an interesting way of presenting the most basic level of Janeway, which was she's she sees someone...
Jamie: and undertaking a task an engineering task and needing help and just immediately gets caught up in helping her with the lamp as the most sort of as a way of understanding Janeway that is like the most sort of fundamental building block and that's quite a telling one that that's the first level of her that they reveal as she starts this journey someone who is just immediately and unconsciously goes off over to help someone else
Red D: Yes, very true. I think it's yeah.
Jamie: And engineering and engineering focused.
Red D: Yes, yes. Very like just Janeway in one little interaction.
Jen: Yeah. I think we're back to you, Red.
Red D: Okay. Okay, this is a very random one. It's so random, but in case any of our eight listeners I'm sure I've spoken about the podcast.
Jen: Eight? That's enormous amount.
Jamie: Oh, yeah.
Jen: High expectations.
Jamie: Oh, yeah.
Red D: I was going to say how I met your mother.
Jamie: All this what?
Red D: No, my dad wrote a porno, which was the top one of the top podcasts ever made, the funniest podcasts ever made.
Jamie: yeah
Red D: But in one of the chapters... in the first season, which was remastered recently and re-released. So I listened again. So this is why I remembered.
Jamie: and
Red D: There's an episode where Belinda, the main character is in this maze and she's having to do all this.
Jamie: no
Red D: Anyway, it's, it's with all these different like,
Jamie: all this sex all this want
Red D: business people from the pots and pans industry. But anyway, such a funny part the And one of the men, and she's in this maze, like, makes some mud and writes some symbols on her back, like, with the mud.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: And I was like, where is this coming from? I've never...
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: don't even know people did this in a non-sexual way. So it made very little sense to me.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: And then I watched this episode, and when Jane was getting ready to go into her challenge, there's that scene where she's quite...
Jamie: yeah
Red D: underdressed and they're painting the mud symbols on the back.
Jen: Yeah. quiteed
Red D: And I was like, ah, maybe the famous Rocky, the author of that book read this, or maybe there's a whole ah side of life.
Jamie: ah since
Jen: yeah
Jamie: yeah
Red D: I don't know about where mud symbols are frequently used in different ceremonies, et cetera.
Jen: yeah
Red D: So.
Jen: Maybe this is like typical religious foreplay and in some spheres that we we don't know about naked get naked and paint each other.
Red D: So that, that, Yes, the crossover I didn't see coming or the the link I never saw coming between these two things that I enjoy.
Jamie: and
Jamie: A crossbow you never saw coming.
Red D: yeah So.
Jen: that was a That was a weird part of the ritual, wasn't it? When they approached her to strip her naked.
Jamie: Take off your clothes.
Jen: yeah
Red D: Yeah, and then paint stuff on her back.
Jen: mr
Jamie: Is that her back or is it not her face with the face bit?
Red D: Also her face, but her back, her lower back, they have big symbols on there.
Jamie: I didn't see that.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: But apparently that was all pointless and medium.
Red D: Yes, that's what I was just thinking.
Jen: It's meaningless. So why were they doing it?
Red D: Why did it? Yeah.
Jen: So many questions. um Over to you then, Jay.
Jamie: Yeah, well, I thought I'd rather made my point with the whole liminal Anansi figure one, but
Jen: Yeah, I didn't know whether that was like a commenting on a talking point or a new talking point? So...
Jamie: and that was my talking point, which was in direct contra to yours.
Jen: oh okay so shall we...
Jamie: So, yeah.
Jen: oh ah I'll skip over to mine then. favor I mean this is just a classic which I'm sure Red has in her notes as well somewhere. It's just classic doctor...
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Oh yes, it's in my mind.
Jamie: yeah
Jen: classic doctor comment with the you know characteristic eye roll as well, very important. Mr. Neelix, you are wallowing, wallowing in useless remorse.
Jamie: Oh, I love that.
Jen: I'll have to ask you to stop. It's bad for the patient.
Jamie: absolutely love that.
Red D: Yes.
Jen: Classic Dr. Bowman.
Red D: Very good.
Jamie: yes this
Jen: That's literally all I have to say. i just love the Dr. Bowman, you know. And after I, you know, badmouth the guide so much, I feel like I've got a good, you know, positive feeling. It's back to you, Red.
Jen: I'm whizzing through.
Red D: Yes, back to me already. So I think another funny line, but this time I think it was delivered by the guide, right? Who says, you are fond of your little devices. Yeah.
Jen: Oh my goodness, that's so funny because like to me that was one of the like antagonistic patronizing comments rather than humorous so it is interesting because different takes and responses on it.
Red D: yeah
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: ah
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: I think it's because now watching it through a 2025 lens or like, let's say when this came out, we didn't have little devices on us all the time. So I'm thinking of it more like, yeah, everyone's on their phone the whole time, but the line still stands, even though that's not what it's referring to, but it's how you could interpret it in a way.
Jen: yeah
Jen: That's a really good point.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: Back then, yeah it wouldn't have run so mean true for everyone watching in the same way it does now.
Red D: I think i would have just thought, oh, that's very patronizing of like towards Janeway. But now I'm like, oh, yes, we are all obsessed with our little devices. So think that's why I found it funny.
Jamie: new There's loads of parallels with everyday life. Although, you know, we don't wear iPhones under our skin yet.
Red D: No, but someone's trying.
Jen: Not yet. I think Enol must Yeah, isn't he developing like a microchip in the brain or something?
Jamie: and Oh god, that's nightmare fuel.
Red D: ah that's the mind reader thing for the brain now that I should know bit more about. but I've forgotten.
Jamie: just Am I not the only one to find that absolutely nightmarish?
Jen: Yes.
Red D: I think it's, I mean, it makes a lot of sense if you think of it from a hasn't someone already been able to like move like um a robotic a hand something like someone who needs a prosthetic, like using that technology?
Jamie: Yes, that's not the bit that's terrifying. Like the idea that someone can mechanise ability to read folks' mind.
Red D: Oh yeah, but people, I mean, yes, I don't think it's a long way to get to, but I mean, even when ah my ah master's thesis many years ago was on brain activity during real unimagined exercise.
Red D: And at that point in time, you just realize, oh everything you're thinking is just electrical signals in the brain.
Jen: Hmm.
Red D: So eventually someone's going to be able to decipher it, I guess. Well, sorry.
Jamie: is that one Is the prospect of someone being able to decipher it and read minds not terrifying?
Jen: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: Well, if it's this technology that they have to get very close to me, then no. If they could do it from far away, then I guess that would be more concerned.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: And also, i just say everything that's in my mind, which is probably explains a lot about my life. But yes.
Jamie: Yeah, i you you will not convince me that it's not terrifying slash horrifying.
Red D: but yes
Jamie: i just The concept of that negative liberty space that is ultimately every human's final recourse of freedom, even under the most sort of terrifying, tyrannous conditions, is just horrifying for me.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: That's a good point.
Jen: Yeah. I think, yeah, part of it is how it's um regulated as well. That would be concern for me. I'm not sure I'd want it being like developed by a billionaire commercial enterprise, enterprise enterprise like Musk's company in an ideal world.
Jamie: I wouldn't believe it could be.
Jen: But here we are. I mean...
Red D: I do think it's a long way from ah being able to tell someone's thinking of a triangle to really make thoughts, though. So I think we stay for a while.
Jen: for a while.
Jen: ah can't remember where we were. Who's talking point was that?
Red D: I think it's, well, Devices, over to you, Jamie.
Jamie: Fair enough. um so i For someone like me, who is like immensely... i think self-analytical at times, I tended to really sympathise with the captain and her dilemma at the very end, where the the spirits kept saying to her, you must only go to the temple if you have absolutely no doubts, and if you have any doubts whatsoever, then you will both die.
Jamie: I'm like, it's physically not possible to Vanish all doubts, even if you, you know, could even get to the level of the Cartesian of being able to convince yourself that I am.
Jamie: You can't convince yourself to have absolutely no doubts about something. So I could really empathise with the captain's perspective on it. And I really, really struggled with you know that as a task that the spirits were giving Janeway and all as an entry-level step.
Jamie: So yeah, that shone to me as a non-coherent plot point.
Red D: Well, you won't be surprised that I'm going to to defend this one by now.
Jamie: Okay.
Red D: But I was also thinking about this in a sense because I'm like, how did she get there so quickly?
Jamie: To a place of no doubts.
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: Does she?
Red D: like ah
Jamie: Does she get to place of no doubts as opposed to just risking it?
Red D: Well, I guess the theory is that it wouldn't work if she has doubts, right? um so even Because yes, the logic mind could say, well, I might as well try this because Kez is going to die anyway.
Red D: So what's
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: to lose but I guess the risk was she could be killed if she didn't really believe or had zero doubts but then I remembered sorry this this is back to what we discussed before we came on the podcast the fear of flying and Jenny shared that in like what's the word meditation that I used once before a flight and honestly like it doesn't work every time but the one time it worked so well
Jamie: me I remain unconvinced that...
Red D: that I flew through turbulence and it felt like, all I can explain is like all that normal stimulus was hitting me like the way it would. And it just was having zero effect, like zero effect on my nervous system or my whatever, the way it normally would.
Jen: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: And so that was what I kind of used to rationalize how perhaps she could have so quickly, know she didn't meditate or anything, but that she kind of built that faith or a hundred percent um certainty and a,
Red D: really short space of time. But anyway, that's what it made me think of, or how I rationalized it from like a plot point.
Jamie: I find it, I understand what you're saying, it feels like something that doesn't feel well scripted to me, or plausibly scripted.
Jamie: yeah But then everything like this is um a subjective matter of opinion.
Jen: Ready?
Red D: Yeah, I mean, yeah.
Jen: Hmm. No good.
Red D: No, no, that's all I have to say. um But also, now I have something else to say. I am listening to The Office Ladies and they're doing a rewatch of The Matrix and they've just got to the bit where Neo knows that he's not the one, but he knows he's the person that can save Morpheus.
Red D: And he just develops that, like, he just has that certainty that he can do that based on, I guess, all the training and everything he's done until that point. And sometimes I've never been in a situation where I have to rescue someone from, like, a an evil army of agents but you know like sometimes you're on like you're in a meeting at work or you're on a uh activity uh bonding work bonding thing doing some kind of crazy physical activity outside you suddenly you're like know how to do this and you like take over a like maybe it's like some you suddenly like no i can do that i don't know where that comes from
Red D: So just another very mild reference point where you can just, you can sometimes develop that confidence or that confidence comes from something or previous experience that you're not aware of, but you're like, no, I can do that.
Jen: yeah
Red D: I do believe that. what i didn'
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: I don't think I'm not convinced Jamie, but those are just some random thoughts that came into my mind.
Jen: It's a really interesting discussion. and And also, I'm really glad the flight thing worked really well.
Jamie: Mm. Mm.
Jen: I have the same experience with that hypnosis app. like Sometimes it works amazingly and other times not so much, but it can be helpful. ah Yeah, really interesting question.
Jen: and Yeah, i'm I'm kind of, I think they're already good points. I'm kind of in and between, not really knowing, yeah, where she would have that certainty from, or how she'd get it.
Jen: But do see what you mean right about that sort of meditative state and focus.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And also what you're saying about, especially with knowing suddenly how to do something, and not knowing where that comes from.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: It reminds me of that book Bounce by Matthew Syed, where he's talking about how people who are really at the top of their game, like athletes or firefighters or or nurses, after years and decades and decades of work in their field, they there's instances and examples of them um doing things where they didn't even think about doing it, but it turned out um to be the right thing to do.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: since
Red D: Oh, yes.
Jen: And it was just instinctive. And it's something that is just inbuilt in them now. I think like an example they used was um like a firefighter um choosing a different route and then the route he would have chosen collapsing immediately in the fire and there was no way to tell that that was the route that was going to collapse and maybe it was just luck but maybe it's more to do with the many decades of experience and there's something that his unconscious mind recognised about the situation to know that that was the route that would collapse if you see what I'm saying
Red D: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Jen: and and I wonder if there's an element of that for Janeway as well. So it might still be scientific like it's just that it's buried in her unconscious that she knows that she's going to be safe in the arch but that's me i'm I'm bound to find a scientific explanation that isn't um isn and about the the faith.
Jamie: hmm
Red D: I'll Janeway and Al Chakotay.
Jen: Yeah and then I think yeah I'm almost out of talking points but um
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: It's kind of related actually, the one I have here to our discussions. It was all the chat about it all being meaningless. Everything is meaningless, you know. um And,
Jamie: But if life needs meaning, then why it's so good?
Jen: ah well, I just, I find that comment that she kept making about it's it's all meaningless.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: I was like, such a frustrating thing for her to keep repeating because to me, meaning is determined by the individual and it's subjective. So yes, to random alien lady, it's not meaningful that Kes dies,
Jen: maybe to those who love Kes, that is quite meaningful. you know And I know I'm taking it way too literally, but...
Jamie: yes
Red D: No, that's a really good point because there was i had a fleeting thought in my mind that I didn't really like kind of put down.
Jamie: hmm hmm
Red D: But the magistrate, I think he was, who you know right in the beginning Janeway is dealing with after the accident, ah she goes to see him.
Jamie: hmm
Red D: He's like oh, I'm really sorry for your loss. And she's like, we haven't lost anything yet. She's still alive. And it's almost like he was so detached from this outcome that happened on his planet. It's like, that was kind of, well, maybe he had a bit, um,
Red D: embrace that everything is meaningless philosophy, but he didn't seem all that perturbed.
Jen: Yes, but bit too ah too much.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm. agree. agree.
Red D: So I, um, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt that because I think there's more to discuss.
Jen: No, I finished that.
Jamie: Oh, yeah, it's OK.
Jen: Yeah, it's a really good point. Yeah, maybe he's detached from it all so much because he's got this all, is it like nihilistic view that everything is meaningless?
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: And I think because that kind of everything is meaningless is kind of a alternative view, it's at odds with faith, isn't it? Whereas I guess I'm in in the middle of those two because yeah, to me, you know, even if you're not religious, you're...
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: it doesn't mean that everything is meaningless. It means that meaning is determined by, know, the individual and, you know, the love you have for your family or the work you do to help the community or whatever, you know, your cats, I I know.
Jamie: yeah
Red D: ah Yeah.
Jen: you
Red D: It's funny because if everything was really meaningless, people would be much happier. Even like from a, well, okay, maybe I'm speaking really out turn here, but I kind of find it find it funny that from an evolutionary perspective, what is the benefit of needing a healthy, happy family to have a healthy, happy life, basically?
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Like, you know, like your family, early childhood conditions have such an impact on your later life or whatever. But so us little humans are so fragile and something little can go wrong.
Jamie: and
Red D: I can really set you off on a kind of destructive path or, you know, and I'm like, what is the evolutionary benefit of that? Because, you know, evolutionary files or whatever, always like, oh, this evolves so that this happens, this evolves so that that happens. And ah we do need meaning to have a good life.
Red D: Like, I guess that's what I was actually trying to get at.
Jamie: I
Red D: to us And a lot of it, as you were saying, Jenny, it comes from our relationships with people. Like, yes, those people wasn't, didn't mean nothing because they care about kids. um Anyway, I think that's a lot random points in one thing, but.
Jen: I love it. i love all the philosophical random thoughts.
Jamie: i mean, there is There was sort of the finding from the prisoner of war camps in North Korea during the Korean War, which was that effectively the way that they found that folk were broken, the torture that broke folk was they were made to do work that was...
Red D: Oh, yes.
Jamie: made then be sort of meaningless they were made to sort of dig and pile up all of the earth and then in front of them you know for instance it would be just thrown straight back in or you know made sort of water all of these plants and then all those plums plants dug up and then made to burn them and things like that life is about the meaning you find in it whatever that might be and
Red D: yes
Jamie: it's effectively without that you have very little compass to orientate yourself. i mean, even if you're moving away from meaning of life questions, just ah being able to find the meaning of your day-to-day situation. I'm sat in a room doing a podcast, the meaning of what the interactions are that others have with me, they're communicating this, and the other.
Jamie: Without meanings, all of those orientation points are just not there.
Red D: Yeah, that's a good point. you mean And,
Jen: Hmm. Yeah.
Red D: No,
Jamie: Life is meaningless without meaning.
Jen: Go on, go on. Last point, Red.
Red D: no, no, I think that is a really good point. Like, you're moving from moment of meaning to moment of meaning. And it it can be little meaning. It can be a big meaning. But
Red D: I like that.
Jamie: Yeah,
Jen: I think um my next point is my last, but I feel like you guys have more. Ah, okay.
Red D: I have already, I've wrapped up some of mine in others. So I don't think I have that many more.
Jamie: you see.
Jen: ah okay So I'll maybe pass over to you for last thoughts, Rhett? And then one more round rumble round each.
Red D: uh okay no no i have oh one more um okay do have three points okay but one is not really a point but you know last episode we had lots of people from seinfeld and lots of seinfeld links which i've now probably forgotten so go back and listen to that episode but one of the ah waiting room people i don't know what else to call them because they weren't the spirits or the guides or maybe they were and i didn't get it i don't
Jen: What you think?
Jamie: have to go. Hmm.
Jen: Three's fine. Mm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: no
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: was Estelle Harris, who's also very, very, very, very famous for playing George's mom in Seinfeld. And she was great.
Jamie: me
Red D: And so i enjoyed her.
Jen: So much Seinfeld, oh my gosh.
Red D: But then all Janeway had to do was knock.
Jamie: this
Red D: Remember that scene when the first time she's trying to go through the challenge?
Jen: Yeah, yeah, I like that scene.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: And I thought, oh dear, if I was, I'm definitely not like Janeway, because it had been me, I would still be in that waiting room. Like with those three others.
Jamie: And then you might have made friends with the spirits and, you know, they might have done the job for you.
Red D: Maybe, but I was like, I'm not a go-getter like Janeway.
Jamie: Mm.
Jen: Do you know, i i it would depend entirely on my mood, I think, because I have experienced this, guys. you know what I liken it to? It's when you go into a women's toilet and there's a queue and there's some cubicle that the green is showing as if it's vacant. and there But there's a queue, right?
Jen: So there's sort of a, oh, I'm sure the people in front know what they're doing and they've tried those doors and it's blocked or there's no toilet paper or something.
Red D: Oh, yes.
Jen: but you don't know that so do you assume and join the queue or do you say oh is there something wrong with those toilets or should i just check them and honestly depending on what mood i'm in i'll go with one or the other that's my equivalent the the toilet conundrum
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: yeah I think that is a good equivalent. That is a good equivalent. But when Janeway started banging on that door, was like, oh my god, how rude! I was like, I would be... like ah would be so
Jen: jumping the queue
Red D: ah I'd be stuck in that purgatory forever.
Jen: What would you...
Red D: But yes. Sorry, go ahead.
Jen: was going ask what Jamie would do.
Jamie: I have no idea because I'd just be caught in that. You've absolutely nothing to orientate against or with to help you decide what's the right thing to do.
Jen: I reckon you'd knock on the door.
Red D: Yes.
Jen: couldn't imagine Jamie.
Jamie: um not sure. I mean, maybe, but respectfully.
Red D: Not as loudly as Janeway, yes.
Jen: um Yeah, yeah. I reckon you'd sit down. And then after a minute you'd say, has anyone tried knocking? Very politely.
Jen: yeah
Jamie: This is...
Jen: Anywho, so any final points from Red before I go over to Jane?
Red D: Yes, I do have a final one. But it was a nice moment again with Chakotay and Janeway, although they were not in the same scene.
Jen: Go on.
Red D: But when they're monitoring her remotely and she hasn't slept for three days and He wants to bring her back and Tupac and the doctor are like, no, she's coping. Like, she wouldn't want to come back. She'd want to complete the mission.
Red D: And then he agrees, but he's and he says something like, I'm not moving from this monitor until she gets back, which I thought was very sweet.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Devotion.
Red D: So worried about her.
Jen: Oh, yeah.
Jamie: Or maybe he's just feeling bad because Spirit Quest Guy hasn't managed to sort out the Spirit Quest for his...
Red D: I didn't think of that angle, but you might have a little... Yeah, maybe, but it's just his concern.
Jen: It's very sweet. And then over to Jay.
Jamie: I have a... hypothetical situation I wanted to put past you guys would Janeway's actions have been the right ones if it had transpired the spirits are actually malevolent
Jen: Hmm.
Red D: think you have to go with your evidence, the evidence of your experience and eyes.
Jamie: well they they had just killed one of her crewmates so they could be malevolent based on the evidential angle
Red D: Yes, I mean, you I didn't want to get into the whole thing, but what type of belief system like harms you and then only sometimes restores you if you're the king the book?
Jamie: I'm just...
Jen: yeah
Red D: Anyway, I didn't want to get into that. But...
Jen: Yeah, it seems pretty cool, doesn't it, really? But then, you know, God of the Old Testament is pretty stern.
Red D: ah
Jamie: Sounds like Trumpian oligarchy to me.
Red D: Yeah, I don't think that's an uncommon on an uncommon pattern, but think...
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: I mean, we didn't really discuss this, but I do think she did the right thing.
Jamie: Hmm
Red D: She had to step outside her comfort zone, and she was kind of moved, shook, something about the experience which we see in the final scene where she...
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: ah Here's the Doctor's explanation, but you feel like she's retaining some of her own experience to explain
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: I like to think that she was also using a bit of her gut feel and that if they were malevolent she would have sensed it because you know as a starship captain one of her one of her skills is having that gut you know instinct that you know like Captain Kirk had and you know especially when it comes to people and contact with new aliens not always right but
Jamie: ah
Jen: you know, you gotta trust your gut, that kind of attitude.
Red D: Yeah. And you, Jamie? What do you think?
Jamie: I do not know which is what why I'm asking. Again, it's one of these things where I think she had absolutely no orienteering points. um
Red D: Yes, I think you're 100% right. She had no, uh, orienteering points, which is why I would have gone into freeze mode and just spent the rest of my life in that room.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: She was much much more self-directed, but then in a sense that led her to doing that part of that quest that was totally unnecessary.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Or was it necessary because she pulled up the antibodies from the venom?
Jamie: leave
Red D: I'm not sure!
Jamie: all was it necessary she needed to go through that journey in order to get to a place where the spirits were happy to
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: this this
Jamie: many reasons it might have been necessary
Red D: You're probably always supposed to go on a journey and not just freeze, so I don't know. Yeah. Sorry, Jenny.
Jen: no I was just thinking this does actually bring me nicely onto to my final point ah which I'm afraid is back to the guide again I know I know I need shut about the guide but if this is this was this is when I wanted to use the laughing emoji as well on this one so it's more of a like um comical comment but uh basically
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: No, it's fine!
Red D: oh yes
Jen: She said, Janeway made the challenges herself. And was like, how did she make the challenges herself? The guide said, stand there and hold this. That is very direct guidance.
Jen: but
Red D: and
Jen: And I know I'm being too literal again, but that was just one of those little things. I just thought, honestly, but i get the whole idea that, you know, you set challenges for yourself. ah And, you know, the concept's quite nice.
Jen: It was just the way it was phrased. I'm a very literal person, guys.
Red D: I mean it wasn't yeah I don't think it was do I phrase this it wasn't like the movie version of this type of journey it was like the TV version so there were like some shortcuts and don't look too deeply into like what the guide is saying just let it flow over you be like yes that's kind of what a guide would say in that situation oh Jamie we can't hear you but you're not muted
Jen: I can't take it.
Jamie: I was just saying you're not supposed to understand all of the ayahuasca journey.
Red D: ah Okay, yes, this could also be part of it.
Jen: So any final thoughts before we move on to themes?
Jen: Silence.
Red D: Oh, not for me. Oh, yeah, sorry.
Jamie: Revolves.
Red D: Oh,
Jen: Excellent. Okay, themes. I put the obvious one, belief versus science.
Red D: ah yeah, very good point.
Jen: And I can see another one there.
Red D: Yes, so, I mean, maybe it's going to annoy you, but this was a line from the guide. But I think it's, like, it's a ah common, and I think it's maybe something I relate to because I feel like I do this.
Jamie: So agree.
Red D: um And it's not, I don't say it's really a strong theme, but I just like the line. So most of the challenges in life are the ones we create ourselves. um
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah.
Red D: I do think there's an element of truth to that.
Jen: Yeah, no, absolutely. That's part of the um satisfaction from life in a way, isn't it?
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Is setting yourself challenges and goals.
Red D: Oh, but yes, so I think challenges can also conflicts, obstacles, like um things that get in your way, things to overcome, not just achieve.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: But yeah.
Jen: I do struggle a little bit with that concept, you know, because
Red D: I think that's a sign that you're a mentally healthy, Jenny.
Jen: I sort of see it, really?
Red D: Yes.
Jen: Well, I just sort of see, when you think about challenges that you don't set yourself, but that just come your way, like, um you know, grief, um you know, bad things that happen to you, maybe being bullied in early life, or all kinds of things that, you know, I don't know, you break your leg, or these kinds of things.
Red D: ah yeah
Jamie: um
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: i You know, challenges that these you need to overcome, but they aren't really set i wouldn't see that I wouldn't see it that I set them, you know what mean?
Red D: No, you didn't.
Jen: and
Red D: You didn't. And I don't even see this as challenges compared to the things I said for myself.
Jamie: my
Jen: I think that's how struggled.
Red D: But anyway, I mean, again, not, not said, but it's more like, I think as I've admired about you for a long time or whatever, like if you're unhappy in a situation, like, oh, I'm unhappy.
Red D: I'm going to change it. Whereas like, I'll be like, I'm unhappy. I'm unhappy. I'm unhappy.
Jen: oh
Red D: I'm unhappy.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Then I get unhappy and happy and unhappier.
Jen: ah but
Red D: It's harder to change it. So then I've got to overcome my own self-induced unhappiness.
Jen: but
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Then I can change the situation. Like, yeah.
Jamie: So maybe what's really needed is a really
Jen: Well,
Jamie: immediate and extreme response to the very first rearing of the head of the unhappy. The
Red D: Yes, but that's not the way I'm wired. That's true.
Jen: well
Jamie: human is to change. None of us evolutionarily started as fully clad humans walking around with you know vaccines and shit like that.
Red D: ah's true
Red D: So, no, no, no, but I do love this insight into further insights into Jenny's brain.
Jamie: That's not the human condition.
Jen: I've got a cat who's, who she can sense nearing the end of the podcast has just come along.
Jamie: Yes.
Red D: Oh, they could tell.
Jen: ah That's, yeah, I mean, I would say they read that um I have a different difficulty in that, to you, in that, um yes, once I identify that I'm unhappy, I'll want i'll just do something about it.
Jen: However, it takes me a long time to work out that I'm unhappy, I think.
Red D: I also have that problem.
Jen: That's the problem.
Red D: also have that problem.
Jen: and I think,
Red D: ah but Okay, that's good to know.
Jen: Yeah, Jamie knows before me, I think.
Red D: Yeah, okay.
Jamie: Oh, it's very obvious.
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: It's very obvious indeed.
Jen: It's not obvious to me, though. I think that's quite common, though, like people, it's easier to see stuff going on with other people than for you to see it.
Jamie: Well, are you shouting at me because of things that happened at work? If you find yourself shouting at me because of things that happened at work, I would like to you know make a bet with you about that, what that shows.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: But I think it's like when you're in it, you're like, oh, I'm managing, I'm tolerating it. Oh, it's tough. But you don't.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Yeah, sometimes it's very hard to tell.
Jen: Yeah, it's boiling frog syndrome.
Red D: Yes. Yeah.
Jamie: I don't believe that for a minute. Excuses. Lies.
Jen: Yeah, actually, I don't know that you get Boylan-Frogg syndrome today.
Jamie: in front of my head spoiling.
Jen: Although, i don't know, maybe in your
Jamie: Well, I just have a far more people are antagonistic sense of life and the workplace. So, like, I'm far more likely to react to a colleague's interaction by thinking X is being a tool bag and acting in this way to try and get one over me.
Jamie: So I'm far more like, oh my gosh, that cat is so cute. I'm far more likely, why have you got a cat butt on your face? Far more likely to leap to the conclusion, this is a piece of shit, they're a piece of shit, fuck them.
Jen: Sorry.
Jamie: Early than you guys.
Red D: That is so healthy. i wish I could do
Jen: Could lead to its own set of problems though.
Jamie: I mean, you just need to realise that when someone interacts with you and you leave unhappy, they're an asshole.
Jen: That is an extreme, wow.
Red D: it.
Jamie: I could help you demonstrate that if you want, by each having some interactions with you that make you unhappy.
Red D: No, I think you're onto something because...
Jamie: like I could do it by interacting actually in the way that we did when we first met, if constantly interrupting you if that helps.
Red D: No, I think you are.
Jamie: and Actually, like what I was saying...
Red D: I think it's probably this kind of coach, there's this coaching at work and stuff and they share some resources and one of things was like when something happens there's three lenses to view it through.
Red D: need to go back and read it because like it can help like just I guess there's people and situations where sometimes you just assume everything is your fault or And you don't you don't consider any other motivations for why that person might be acting that way.
Red D: And it is better to just at least be a bit more balanced about what could be going on.
Jen: yeah I'm kind of on that the same vein as you read with the balance because I don't know I do I think sometimes in some situations surely you can come away from something feeling bad and it isn't necessarily it's not necessarily your fault but it's not necessarily the other person's fault either it's just you know one of these things that so I struggle with identifying that versus someone's
Red D: Yes, just miss.
Jen: treating me or or anyone else really badly and behaving very badly and um you know like identify the difference between those two situations um because you want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt don't you?
Jen: um
Jamie: Well, I would prefer to take Helen Mirren's perspective on it which was if I could have given my younger self one piece of advice, it would be to use the words fuck off much more frequently.
Red D: I
Red D: um mean, yes, I wish I could be.
Jamie: I think you'd both be far more healthily employed doing that than, you know, all this cycle wank.
Red D: That would be amazing. I do sometimes fantasize about saying that What do you hope my...
Jamie: Well, I mean, there's a very simple way of doing it.
Jen: It seems...
Jamie: After an interaction, as they're just leaving you go Barry, and they turn back, fuck off.
Red D: i mean i could do it if i was pretending i was in a sitcom then i could probably do it because i won't do anything if i think it's funny but haven't no i've never done that but if i think it could be funny i might do it but it's never been
Jamie: Simple as that.
Jamie: Why don't you pretend you're in a sitcom?
Jamie: It's always funny to humiliate someone who's being a dick to you.
Jen: And on that note, over to Starplayer.
Red D: yes yeah stop yeah
Jen: And I'm gonna have to make you guys go first because I'm still thinking. and So does anyone have an idea is a bit isn't
Jamie: I
Red D: This is a tough one.
Jamie: think... Hmm.
Jen: And no Jamie you cannot choose the rock that Janeway held. You can really if you want.
Red D: Oh, gosh, that's so funny. That thought flashed through my mind. um
Jen: Do you know what? Okay I've got mine.
Red D: ah great.
Jen: Because I feel that I should be true to myself with my scientific very literal roots. I'm gonna go with the doctor because he had all of the explanations like for why all happened.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Absolutely no spirituality at all. um And also because although you know shout out Janeway because do think she's very good in this but again i always try not to pick her because otherwise I'd always pick her.
Jen: So I'm going I'm going with the doctor.
Jamie: i would oh sorry
Red D: No, go for it.
Jamie: I would like to choose as my star player for this episode a philosophical perspective on the existence of the divine slash otherworldly rooted in fideistic ad ignorantiam
Jamie: That is my star player for this episode.
Red D: Can you say that again for the...
Jen: hi
Red D: for the
Jamie: Fideic ad ignorantiam, known as the argument from ignorance that the inability to disprove the existence of God with the spirit source supernatural explanation, in fact, proves them.
Jamie: Philosophically flawed in a number of ways and comes from pragmatic arguments like Pascal's wager. But that is my star player for this episode.
Red D: Gosh, I think Jamie should start another podcast that deep dives into these things.
Jamie: I can't have off.
Jen: Yes.
Jamie: i
Jen: My God.
Jamie: It just feels relevant to this episode.
Red D: I'm just hanging on here, just trying to Very nice.
Jamie: That's all I'm saying.
Jen: Thank you.
Red D: I will take us back to TV World with my star player. And it will be for... And this is how they credits it on Wikipedia. So please, old woman, old man one and old man two.
Red D: um I did love that little trio of characters, actually. um I loved their faces, I loved their acting, I loved and their Enigma.
Red D: um
Jamie: Is there a parallel with the fates
Red D: Oh yeah, probably.
Jen: and
Red D: Again, I'm not that...
Jamie: in the existence of three of them and the way they
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: that was the best challenge as well but whether to sit or to knock on the door that's a great challenge
Red D: So they will be my star player for this episode.
Jen: oh no no i have to change my to jane with then because no no i'm fake jane no no no it's fine i think there's ones that she's even better in so they she she risked her life to save kes i mean
Jamie: No one speaks anyway.
Jamie: Rash and immature leadership, that's all I'm going to say. mean, no, sorry.
Jamie: I know. She's not supposed to risk her life. She's the captain. That's what she employs Chakotay and Tuvok for.
Jen: Okay, so I think we're just about time for the jingle.
Red D: Very good. I mean.
Jamie: Interpretative dance, interpretative dance, interpretative dance, interpretative dance.
Jen: Yep, and a bit of interpretive dance to go with the jingle.
Jamie: I'm narrating the others interpretative dance here on the video.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: it
Red D: Yesterday I went to a two dance classes on one day.
Jen: Oh, I bet they were tap and ballet.
Jamie: Really interpretative.
Red D: ah it was tap and ah it was hip hop before tap.
Jen: Oh, sickles.
Jamie: Boom.
Red D: Yeah, I'm still trying to find ballet class. Oh, and that's it. Okay. Thank you, everyone. See you next time.
Jamie: Nice.
Red D: i don't know what the next episode is but I'm going press stop.
Jamie: Mmm.
Jen: Bye.
Red D: Bye.
