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We watch "Remember" (S3 Ep.6)
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Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Remember", in which we had a few technical difficulties (sorry!) but we also loved this episode where B'Elanna has some crazy dreams, but for a very good cause.
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Theme music by Alain D
Recommended
Transcript
Playful Beginnings and Podcast Introduction
00:00:00
Jamie
Proper salutes for the theme tune, please.
00:00:01
red23
ah Okay, we're saluting this evening. This is new.
00:00:04
Jamie
Oh my gosh. ah but but No.
00:00:06
red23
Okay, keeping this in the salutes up.
00:00:10
Jamie
Jenny, if I don't see salutes, I'm restarting the music.
00:00:13
red23
Jenny's got a little rebel in her. She's you can't tell me what to do.
00:00:15
Jamie
Right, Red, restart the music.
00:00:16
red23
I'm not going to salute.
00:00:17
Jamie
like
00:00:17
Jen
if Do not restart the music.
00:00:17
Jamie
Restart the music. Restart the music!
00:00:20
red23
I'm not restarting the music. And also, I love the way Jenny won't even salute to her own podcast. So I know...
00:00:25
Jamie
Let's... but No, you've gotta hold the suit, right? Let's edit it as though, you know, we had a furious argument and then it's been cut and then we're like talking calmly so the editor has been like, get your shit together, people.
00:00:25
Jen
I did, I saluted and then, you know, my arm's tired.
00:00:37
red23
Well, I just heard the words editing and then I laughed inside because we know that doesn't happen on this podcast.
00:00:42
Jamie
Yeah.
00:00:44
Jen
Editing's for amateurs.
00:00:46
red23
Yes.
00:00:46
Jamie
Hmm.
00:00:47
Jen
we can We can get it in one run, guys. That's how professional we are. decision
00:00:53
red23
Some say some say MacGyver-esque.
00:00:55
Jamie
Hmm.
00:00:58
red23
But
00:01:00
Jamie
I'm loving
00:01:01
red23
but I'm waiting for you to tell me where to stop the jingle, Jamie, because when I try to stop it before, okay.
00:01:04
Jamie
this. I'm doing it.
00:01:06
red23
okay
00:01:08
Jamie
yeah
00:01:09
Jen
I mean, it's going to not be a jingle soon. It'll be an actual three-minute song.
00:01:14
Jamie
um um
00:01:14
red23
You know, actually, this is how long in like jingles, theme tunes on TV used to be like in the 80s.
00:01:15
Jamie
until
00:01:20
red23
Like, wow, they devoted a lot of screen time to this intro.
00:01:24
Jamie
Yeah, like we've only given it like 1 minute 20 seconds, so you know, frankly I see people disrespecting the jingle in the same way that MAGA people see people disrespecting the flag. um You know, treasures
00:01:36
red23
Famously, not a very political podcast, but yeah.
00:01:39
Jamie
yeah who must be gone to be you know told off. Anyhow, hello and welcome to this episode of Janeway's Children. We are talking Season 3, Episode 6, Remember.
Voyager Episode Summary and Themes
00:01:53
Jamie
So, we've had theme music. Theoretically, this is when we do the one minute summary, but it feels a little bit weird asking myself to do the one minute summary.
00:02:01
Jamie
Red, can you ask me to do the one minute summary?
00:02:01
red23
I think you should ask yourself to do the one minute...
00:02:04
red23
I'll ask you to do the one minute summary. Jamie, why don't you do the one minute summary? I don't
00:02:07
Jamie
Well, I don't really feel like doing it. Convince me.
00:02:10
red23
know why you always pick on me to do the one minute summary, when you can also ask your wife.
00:02:15
Jen
sit
00:02:15
red23
Jamie.
00:02:16
Jamie
I feel you fundamentally misunderstand the risks that go with marriage, Red.
00:02:20
red23
Okay, okay.
00:02:21
Jen
I can do it if you really, really want.
00:02:21
red23
You know I'm...
00:02:23
Jen
I mean, i think I've done it once in the entire
00:02:24
red23
I think it's...
00:02:25
Jamie
I think I'll do the one minute summary rather than risk my wife you know telling me off. ah So, in this episode of Star Trek Voyager, we see the intrepid crew of Voyager playing chauffeur to a group of apparently peaceful aliens called Anorans, who seem to have a lot in common with Voyager, with whom they're forging trade links and who have exchanged...
00:02:30
red23
Brilliant.
00:02:54
Jamie
notes on technology to do with energy efficiency and energy savings that would presumably be a value to Voyager. In return, Voyager are taking this group of colonists from the Anorans to their home planet.
00:03:10
Jamie
All seems to be going well until Balana seems to be getting some rather intense dreams which turn out to be the portal via which one of the Anorans is trying to tell an ancient and dark historical secret about their planet and its people and how they have treated one of their group.
00:03:33
Jamie
I see a hand up. This isn't a team's call, so I'm going to ignore it.
00:03:37
Jamie
No, go for it.
00:03:37
Jen
Thank you.
00:03:38
red23
Well, I thought that was a brilliant summary, but I did have to push back on the term ancient. I think it happened in that woman's lifetime and she wasn't that ancient when she died. So she seemed about a normal age,
00:03:48
Jamie
She's ancient if I say she was ancient, Red. i think I mean, anyway, the folks who are pushing the fiction that it never happened would like it to be considered ancient.
00:03:56
red23
but otherwise brilliant.
00:04:01
Jamie
So just maybe I was entering into the spirit of that historical fiction.
00:04:07
red23
Good point.
Initial Reactions and TV Nostalgia
00:04:08
red23
Good point.
00:04:09
Jamie
So initial reactions. How are we feeling, pet team? What did we think about it?
00:04:15
red23
I'll let Jenny go.
00:04:16
Jen
Oh, but well, my initial reaction was a comment on someone else's initial reaction.
00:04:19
red23
Oh, yes. Sorry, sorry. but
00:04:21
Jen
then So it's difficult to go first.
00:04:21
red23
That's true. Let me go. ah had no memory of this episode. Like, for ages and ages, that I was really trying to remember because I thought I knew what was about, but then it started and i was like, I don't remember these people, this race.
00:04:35
red23
And then only when they're in the scene in the mess hall and Janeway, or that, that, um, and Orin is playing the musical instrument. as Ah, yes. Okay. I remember, I remember now, but it was strange how it felt very, very new or like, I didn't know it for quite a while.
00:04:44
Jamie
ah
00:04:50
Jamie
I do think having no memory of it is quite ironic given that the telepathic transfer of memory and its denial is the key plot device.
00:05:01
Jen
Oh, and it's called Remember as well.
00:05:01
red23
Uh, yes.
00:05:03
Jen
yeah
00:05:04
Jamie
Exactly.
00:05:05
red23
I agree.
00:05:05
Jamie
Yeah, but i was I was trying to be a little bit more, you know, flouncy about it than just saying, it's called Remember and we don't remember it.
00:05:06
Jen
and
00:05:13
Jamie
um Which is also a valid standpoint. How about you, Jenny? What did you think of it?
00:05:19
Jen
I also have no memory of it, which which is especially weird because I really liked it. um normally i remember the ones I liked. So maybe there's some kind of weird psychological block because it's called Remember.
00:05:26
Jamie
Yeah.
00:05:28
Jamie
Yeah.
00:05:31
Jamie
Yeah.
00:05:31
Jen
you automatically your brain just that blanks it out.
00:05:35
red23
like, I will not remember this episode.
00:05:36
Jen
thank yeah
00:05:36
Jamie
Yeah, I mean, it's true.
00:05:36
red23
Don't tell me what to do.
00:05:37
Jen
We're just really stubborn, Red, we have stubborn brains.
00:05:39
red23
yeah come
00:05:41
Jamie
and And I too had no memory of it, which is ironic because I never watched it. But yeah, but I'm sure I'm finding common ground.
00:05:49
red23
oh
00:05:50
Jamie
You know, we've had a rocky start. People didn't salute the jingle, but, you know, I'm finding common ground. I'm building bridges here. Right. One cool thing.
00:06:00
red23
Yes. Well, I don't always have one cool thing or we don't always have one cool thing, but,
00:06:03
Jamie
Red, you are a cool thing.
00:06:04
red23
ah
00:06:05
Jamie
Don't you dare let me hear you be so down on yourself.
00:06:08
red23
but i did recognize a lot of the guest stars so i thought okay let me for like for once do a proper little bit of a deep dive and i love the fact that so many of them were from motor she wrote and seinfeld i mean they
00:06:18
Jamie
um
Guest Stars and Cultural Portrayals
00:06:19
red23
all had very long filmographies in film and television but i watched very limited slice of film and television mostly
00:06:26
Jamie
Give us some examples and indeed how you describe them.
00:06:27
red23
Mostly Motor She Wrote and Seinfeld. So, um, Dathan, oh, this is a good one, though. The guy who was the hot lover, young lover, if I may call him that.
00:06:34
Jamie
could could we Could we put the correct anagram in front? I.E. Hot Lover.
00:06:41
red23
I, hot lover, but charles he was played by Charles Esten. I don't know if I pronounced that correctly correctly.
00:06:45
Jamie
Hmm.
00:06:46
red23
Who has done many things, but who I recognize from whose line is it anyway?
00:06:51
Jamie
Oh, I have no idea.
00:06:51
red23
um yes, so from back in the day, then, um, Eugene Rush, who played the
00:06:53
Jamie
Hmm.
00:06:57
red23
the kind of leader, Joe Brel. but He was on many, many shows that I loved, including like a guest starring in Webster, Airwolf, Magnum P.I., Perfect Strangers, which I found out only had two seasons, which is very sad because as a child, I felt like I watched a lot of it.
00:06:59
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm.
00:07:12
red23
um Then they there was actually, I didn't write her down, but the woman who, she only had like a smallish part, although in the end, she had quite a big part.
00:07:21
Jamie
arms?
00:07:23
Jamie
any the and the engineer in our
00:07:23
red23
ah
00:07:25
red23
The engineer, yeah, she was played by Brennan, no, sorry, Athene Macy. And she was on an episode of Seinfeld, a very funny episode of Seinfeld called The Engagement. She has like a tiny, tiny little part where she's eating peas one by one.
00:07:37
Jamie
Oh, wow.
00:07:37
red23
But yeah, ah she was, um yeah, so there was a lot of, and then, and The final guy, I think Bruce Davison, the guy who played her dad, um the character, Balanis flashback character, Dad.
00:07:50
red23
He was, I recognized him again. He was in many things, but I recognized him from Seinfeld. He played, and i think i wrote it down here, the chairman of the Susan Ross Foundation, which if you've watched Seinfeld, you'll know.
00:08:00
Jamie
ah wow
00:08:02
red23
If you haven't, then nevermind.
00:08:05
Jamie
I have to admit I haven't, but it sound sounds like he's done quite a lot of stuff and I hear that's not going to be in the end.
00:08:09
red23
You haven't watched Seinfeld. Okay. I'll be on next podcast.
00:08:12
Jen
I have not watched any of those shows, Red.
00:08:13
Jamie
I know.
00:08:14
Jen
i i
00:08:16
Jamie
Has anyone here...
00:08:16
red23
Well, you are from the UK.
00:08:16
Jen
well
00:08:17
red23
So that is a, like, that's fair. Yeah.
00:08:20
Jamie
I'm sorry, where are we, Citizen of? Where are we, Citizen of?
00:08:23
red23
No, I'm saying I always said this, but like, I feel like as a kid, I saw British and US TV, but a lot of people, I think back in the day, like, I just get the impression that some UK people, dont I don't know what it was.
00:08:29
Jamie
Hmm.
00:08:34
red23
Maybe these shows weren't available here. I'm not sure, but I feel like I had got a good mix growing up as well.
00:08:40
Jamie
No worries. And also, has anyone here actually watched any of that 70s show?
00:08:46
red23
Yes, of course.
00:08:47
Jamie
Is it any good?
00:08:48
red23
The original, yes. Then they did that 90s show, I think.
00:08:50
Jamie
Okay.
00:08:51
red23
But that that's the only show I watched a lot as ah as a teen, for sure.
00:08:54
Jamie
Okay, noted. Interesting. Cool. I suppose we had better get on with this discussion of the Inarans and the concealment of historical genocide that is the plot device of this episode Jenny I believe you're first would you like to go for the series or would you like to take down the gravity of what I have just come out with with something less serious
Humor, Symbolism, and Content Tone
00:09:21
Jen
I'm gonna start Les series because you know it's the chronology of the episode.
00:09:24
Jamie
that is that is what I hoped you would do
00:09:28
Jen
Yes I mean i just don't know what was going on with that musical instrument. I mean it was basically very phallic in shape.
00:09:39
red23
The musical instrument.
00:09:39
Jen
He held it he held it on his groin. He's stroking it on his groin and then and then Janeway's
00:09:43
Jamie
And just like massaging it with his fingers.
00:09:43
red23
Oh God.
00:09:46
Jamie
Yep. Yep.
00:09:49
Jen
oh, that was wonderful when he finishes playing. and Like, it was just all this sexual innuendo, which obviously ties in nicely with all these, you know, dreams that Valada is having.
00:10:00
Jen
um But, oh, it was just a bit, like, I put, as Frasier Crane would say, it was a bit on the nose.
00:10:00
Jamie
Hmm.
00:10:08
Jen
It was it's just too much for me.
00:10:08
Jamie
Hmm.
00:10:10
red23
I think it was on the nose.
00:10:11
Jen
It was vomit, vomit emoji for me.
00:10:13
Jamie
I actually love the way they've written it, so it's not the vomit emoji, it's the might emoji.
00:10:13
red23
If you...
00:10:18
Jen
yeah
00:10:20
Jamie
20 years for man's laughter. Must have been one hell of a joke. Sorry, carry on.
00:10:24
Jen
well that's what you do isn't it you do it all in one you
00:10:27
Jamie
I just love the idea of the might emoji.
00:10:28
Jen
you do all in one
00:10:29
Jamie
That this makes it sound even more vomity.
00:10:34
Jamie
having Having had a colleague spend a good half an hour at lunchtime today explaining to me that there was reasons why Hershey's, quote unquote, in her view, tasted of vomit. And then bring me a Guardian article up as well. I quite like the vermite emoji thing as a way of expressing that.
00:10:52
Jamie
I have never seen it. I've never, I do. I have never had a Hershey that tasted a vomit to me. So don't
00:10:59
red23
Other brands are available. Is that what people sometimes say when you mention a brand on a book?
00:11:03
Jamie
know.
00:11:03
red23
Although he just said it tastes like vomit, so I don't think it's really considered a promotion.
00:11:07
Jen
I mean I don't understand it's just a really tasty chocolate I mean
00:11:10
Jamie
Yeah, I really enjoy it as well.
00:11:10
red23
Yeah. Maybe she had a bad experience.
00:11:13
Jamie
maybe i like Maybe I like that particular flavour of Bertie Botts over every flavour beans too. Who knows? Maybe all of Dumbledore's disliked Bertie Botts beans would have been my thing. Don't know.
00:11:25
red23
Showing my lack of some British TV shows there, I think.
00:11:25
Jamie
Right.
00:11:28
red23
But anyway...
00:11:28
Jamie
No, no, no. That's not a British TV show. That's Harry Potter.
00:11:31
red23
Oh, yes, sorry.
00:11:31
Jamie
Yeah, Bertie Botts.
00:11:31
red23
I heard Dumbledore and I was like, that sounds familiar, but I kind of...
00:11:35
Jamie
Dumbledore always gets earwax and vomit flavoured Bertie Pots, every flavoured beans. It's a thing for him. Whereas Harry, the little golden child, apparently tends to always get delicious ones.
00:11:46
Jamie
Or so we're told.
00:11:47
red23
All right. Well, I just want to go back to Jenny's point, if I may, because I did write...
00:11:48
Jamie
Moving on to...
00:11:51
Jamie
Oh, sorry, yeah, go for it.
00:11:52
red23
It's not my point, but I just want to...
00:11:53
Jamie
Go back to the phallic musical instrument. It's important to engage with it.
00:11:56
red23
I feel like... I mean, I've forgotten how you finished that sentence, but you were like, it was very phallic. But I was like, only you have sex on the brain, Jenny, I would say, because I, well, I did not pick that up at all. But what I did write down is that Jenny actually wrote in her notes, WTAF, which I thought was hilarious.
00:12:13
red23
And so for my first point, it was, Jenny just said, WTAF? Question mark, question mark. So...
00:12:21
Jamie
so What? Jenny says WTF and WTF many times.
00:12:24
red23
oh
00:12:28
Jen
maybe I only say it to you Jamie
00:12:28
red23
I'm so open. Yeah.
00:12:30
Jen
yeah
00:12:30
Jamie
That is my privilege.
00:12:32
Jen
I I mean I I mean find it really hard to believe that wasn't intentional that that musical instrument that it it sat directly on his groin and stroking it
00:12:33
Jamie
That was my privilege.
00:12:40
Jamie
Yeah. The way he touches that musical instrument especially, like, that's weird.
00:12:47
red23
Yeah, maybe I'm going to go. i did I did go rewatch something and I'll show you a little bit later, but maybe I'll go rewatch that. What I did think about that musical instrument was like, it's a little bit like ChatGPT. Like, does it really need skill to play?
00:12:58
red23
Like, because you just wave your hands over it and then like...
00:12:59
Jamie
Shit, shit, shit. And fills your emotions. Yeah, Janeway, I've never ever learnt how to play a musical instrument.
00:13:06
red23
And suddenly she could do it.
00:13:07
Jamie
Yeah, let me touch you and you can play.
00:13:09
red23
Yeah, exactly. So that was, I guess I'm too focused on the technology side of things at the moment, Shay.
00:13:11
Jamie
Yeah.
00:13:14
Jamie
Yeah. I, yeah.
00:13:15
red23
You've got...
00:13:16
Jamie
No, I totally get that. And I share your absolute disgust at Jenny swearing by saying WTAF. That's a point.
00:13:26
red23
This wasn't disgusting.
00:13:26
Jamie
I'm not having this devolving into the sort of emotional shambles we see on the Delta Flyers. People swearing left, right, and centre. Anarchy. Emotions bubbling far too readily to the surface. We're not having any of that. So, Jenny...
00:13:40
Jamie
I'll ask you to keep the language under control. This is a family production. We'd like to keep it universal.
00:13:46
Jen
did
00:13:46
red23
want to apologize for outing Jenny because she didn't actually say on the podcast. She just wrote it on her notes.
00:13:51
Jen
I think, well...
00:13:51
Jamie
It was indicative. People would have thought it. I'm sorry. And as Ted Lasso's youngest actor says, it counts if you make someone think it and therefore have to put money in the swear jar.
00:14:02
red23
Okay.
00:14:02
Jen
and I think also, you know, I didn't think there would be any authenticity to be
Character Analysis and Costuming
00:14:07
Jen
using it now because when I wrote that, I was watching the scene and I did feel
00:14:11
red23
Yes. Yes.
00:14:13
Jen
WTAF. But now here with you guys, you know, it doesn't seem such a big deal.
00:14:15
Jamie
yeah yeah
00:14:20
red23
I get I get it.
00:14:21
Jamie
so i if i may would like to take the conversation in another direction but once uh once more as ever don the mantle of the ship's crews hr representative and performance manager And I would like to talk about the performance of the ship's telepathic staff during this episode, specifically Tuvok and Kes.
00:14:44
Jamie
Can we just talk about how they're about as useless as wet sock made of tissue this episode?
00:14:49
red23
oh
00:14:52
Jamie
We have a situation in which someone is receiving telepathic messages from a mystery person. They don't get involved to help out. They have no idea what's going on. We need better from them.
00:15:04
Jamie
The performance level in this episode of the ship's telepathic staff, I think, is abysmal. Prove me wrong.
00:15:13
red23
I can't, that's a really good point.
00:15:16
Jamie
We keep them around for a reason and put up with all their weird shit and, you know, making making cocoons and eating Earth and terrifying Neelix. We put up with that for a reason, because they can protect us from telepathic attack.
00:15:28
Jamie
What use are they this time round?
00:15:32
red23
Hmm. I'm trying to quickly think on my feet to see. i to say i mean, the doctor could sense all the telepathic activity.
00:15:40
Jamie
You can't sense it. You can only stand it on the frontal lobe.
00:15:42
red23
i mean, he could, sorry, not sense it. Yes, he could actually measure it.
00:15:46
Jamie
But it's not about movement.
00:15:46
red23
I guess they...
00:15:47
Jamie
It's about to fence and what's going on.
00:15:47
red23
Ah. I think you've raised a good point, Jamie. You know when the leader says, oh, she must just be picking up our, like, residual memories or something. um It's actually a lie, because if that was the case, then...
00:16:02
red23
Don't you think Tuvok or Kez would also also have be having the same experience? She was actually only getting those memories because someone was intentionally sending them to her.
00:16:07
Jamie
Exactly. And they don't pick up on that. And they don't pick up on that. I'm sorry, but I just... Performance Improvement Plan for all of them.
00:16:17
red23
ah
00:16:17
Jen
Thank you.
00:16:18
Jamie
Right. There will be order. We will follow the order of the list. Red, over to you.
00:16:24
red23
OK, yes. um Well, maybe I'll skip that one. It was very minor. ah But Tying into a little bit, oh, don't know.
00:16:34
red23
Maybe this is going to tie into what someone else has said. I only read but Jenny's first WTF comment, so I don't know. Sorry. OK, maybe I'll go with my original second comment. Wow, that's annoying and listening to me.
00:16:46
red23
ah For a minute, when this episode started, i thought we were back with the Banayans. You remember when Tom Paris nearly got convicted of murdering the scientist because he was having, he was attracted to her wife and it was that kind of film noir episode because the headgear was quite similar except the Bunnians have the feathers and these guys just have, um I guess, not feathers, but the...
00:16:55
Jamie
Yeah.
00:16:57
Jen
Oh yeah. um
00:17:04
Jamie
I
00:17:08
Jamie
don't know. I was really struggling until you described that to remember who the bird race were. There
00:17:14
red23
Yes. I mean, I had to look it up. I didn't know that off the top. So ah that to me, there was a bit of a similarity in the costumes, which I'm sure will happen from time time.
00:17:19
Jamie
you go.
00:17:25
red23
But then I remember just like the big game. It wasn't the same race.
00:17:28
Jamie
interesting it's kind of yeah I had almost forgotten entirely about that film noir episode and um there is something maybe there that they sort of often use that slight style of headgear to provide a little bit of cultural differentiation where the crew of Voyager are engaging with species who are so culturally close to Voyager that um
00:17:29
red23
and embrace
00:17:44
Jen
Well,
00:17:56
Jamie
ah little bit of differentiation is needed to make that credible
00:18:00
red23
know Yeah, yeah. But I do like it when you re-meet a species. So but that didn't happen in this episode. But yeah, anyway, that was just a tiny, tiny point.
00:18:11
red23
So back to you, Jamie.
00:18:12
Jamie
no no that's okay goofy go for it jen that's okay
00:18:13
Jen
well remember
00:18:17
red23
Oh, sorry. Yes, Jamie.
00:18:18
Jen
Oh, me again. was just thinking about Red's Point. Do know, this isn't a point, it's just a comment on Red's Point, I guess. I really didn't like that costume, that headdress for the aliens.
00:18:32
Jen
I don't know why. I
00:18:35
Jen
just i think because it doesn't really ring true, it just looks like netting on the head. And I don't know like if they committed to that, like this is actually like a headdress,
00:18:40
Jamie
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:40
red23
yes
00:18:43
Jamie
Was it
00:18:46
Jen
then ah probably be okay but I think they were trying to make it into some kind of anatomical feature.
00:18:52
Jamie
was it anatomical or was it clothing? It's difficult to say.
00:18:56
Jen
Maybe it was supposed to be clean or their hair. don't know. It's very weird choice.
00:19:01
Jamie
i mean what what What did you think, Red? Did you think it was clothing or did you think it was anatomical?
00:19:06
red23
That's good point because on the one character, let's call him the leader, because I'll never remember the names. I kind of got the impression anatomical, but then on the young engineer, it seemed very clearly a headdress, at least the way I'm remembering it.
00:19:17
Jamie
Hmm.
00:19:20
Jamie
Hmm.
00:19:21
Jen
Yeah, because it was different colour and...
00:19:21
red23
So not very consistent. Yeah.
00:19:24
Jamie
Oh, bro.
00:19:25
Jen
I don't know. it was just a... on On to the next. ah So, this is a bit controversial. um I am not really, that I can remember, ever a fan of any sex scenes. Like, in anything, ever.
00:19:42
Jen
Like, I know, it's really prudish, but I i just have never not thought... there was no need to put that scene in. Like it didn't add to the story whatsoever.
00:19:50
Jamie
Yeah.
00:19:53
Jen
So to me, it always feels like ah like an unnecessary scene, I guess.
00:19:53
Jamie
Yeah,
00:19:59
Jen
And it's just been put in for a bit of, you know, to get the punters in.
00:20:00
Jamie
I don't know.
00:20:04
Jen
Do you know what I mean? um So, however, ah
00:20:05
red23
Yes.
Workplace Dynamics and Dream Themes
00:20:09
Jen
ah so, you know, I'm coming at this with already like a negative, you know, because I'm one of those.
00:20:14
Jen
ah I have to say though, I think Balarna did a great job at acting it. I really believe she was like having a really great time with that guy. So kudos to Balada.
00:20:25
Jamie
What?
00:20:26
red23
Yes, I think it is a nice scene. And I forgot that I did remember that I did read your next point. Sorry, Jenny.
00:20:33
Jamie
ah
00:20:34
red23
And I was like, what sex scene? And I went back to the beginning and re-watched it because I like, I guess I was...
00:20:37
Jamie
There's
00:20:39
Jen
okay
00:20:41
Jamie
nothing but sex scenes in this thing.
00:20:41
red23
i mean I mean, maybe there was a second sex scene because I stopped after the first one. but um and Because often when I'm starting to watch the episode, I'm like making my notes and everything. And I'm like you.
00:20:53
red23
i don't really... I don't need... I like it.
00:20:55
Jen
Yes, join the prude club.
00:20:56
red23
Sometimes a romantic scene is like, if it's really, you like really wanted them to get together.
00:20:59
Jamie
Hmm.
00:21:01
red23
You're yay. Like that classic, whatever.
00:21:01
Jamie
Hmm.
00:21:02
red23
But I don't need gratuitous sex scenes.
00:21:03
Jamie
Hmm.
00:21:03
Jen
but But then it's like, you're really happy that you see them kissing and then maybe they just go into the bedroom and shut the door.
00:21:05
red23
Oh.
00:21:08
red23
Yes.
00:21:10
Jen
We don't really need to see the...
00:21:10
red23
Well, I love the era where, yes, they're like two, they lock and then they disappear below screen. You're like, I don't know if you remember.
00:21:16
Jen
Yeah, like that's enough. Like why prolong it?
00:21:18
red23
But.
00:21:20
Jen
You know, feel like lately there's lot of shows that they do they kiss and they're like going through.
00:21:23
red23
Oh, yes. Yeah.
00:21:25
Jen
And it's like, it could end there, but it doesn't. It goes on for like five, it feels like, to me it feels like five, 10 minutes of just fake sex.
00:21:32
red23
you
00:21:33
Jen
And I'm like, I did not sign up for porn. So why is this still going, this scene still going on?
00:21:36
Jamie
yeah
00:21:39
Jen
Anyway, maybe it's just me.
00:21:40
Jamie
yeah wait you didn't sign you didn't sign up for fake porn did you say?
00:21:40
red23
Well,
00:21:43
Jamie
just porn?
00:21:44
Jen
Just, well, I suppose it's fake porn, isn't it?
00:21:44
red23
I just, yeah, I just laughed because I was like, I guess I am a bit desensitized now, even though i hardly watch any shows with any girl too sexy.
00:21:46
Jen
Yeah, because they're acting.
00:21:47
Jamie
yeah I'm not actually not going to engage with that I'm not going engage with that
00:21:48
Jen
Just to probably clarify that.
00:21:58
red23
But I was like, what sexy? Then I went back and then i was like, oh, this is so sweet. They really like each other. But yes, they, she actually like that shirt comes off her shoulder and you get her whole naked back, which seems quite a lot for Star Trek.
00:22:10
red23
Not a lot for primetime TV, but yes, you are reminding me.
00:22:10
Jen
It's quite risque.
00:22:15
red23
I sort of, I watched this series called Rebecca Martinson, which is, is it Swedish? I think it was Swedish. Like, you know, it's based on a series of books by an author whose name I read, but we'll never remember now.
00:22:27
red23
um And so this first series is very good, I would say, because she is a lawyer and then she has to go back to a small hometown and someone's died. Then she realizes they've been murdered and she solves the case. And then it's like, it's only eight episodes, I think, but you know, Rebecca Martinson.
00:22:41
Jamie
What is it called? Rebecca...
00:22:44
red23
um But in the very first episode, in the very first five minutes, there is one of those very gratuitous sex scenes. It's like, why is this happening?
00:22:51
Jamie
gosh.
00:22:52
red23
We don't know this character yet. We don't know who she's with.
00:22:54
Jamie
Hmm.
00:22:55
red23
Is it to say that what is actually happening? And honestly, it was like they could have cut that and it would have made zero difference to the show. Yeah.
00:23:04
Jen
It's just, it's clearly just to get people, new not even me and you, because we don't like it, but presumably other people like interested and hooked and watching it.
00:23:08
red23
yeah
00:23:11
red23
Well, know if you remember like Game of Thrones came up, but I just remember some guy friends or my friend.
00:23:11
Jamie
Hmm.
00:23:17
red23
I don't know. It was just very well acknowledged that a lot of men were watching it because there was a lot of naked ladies in it.
00:23:22
Jamie
That was.
00:23:23
Jamie
That was. Until.
00:23:23
Jen
Hmm.
00:23:23
red23
A lot of boobs.
00:23:24
Jen
It's the duration as well.
00:23:25
Jamie
Until.
00:23:26
Jen
Like I genuinely have now. I mean, I only did it recently, but for the first time I fast forwarded because I was like, these people have been been faking sex on screen for what feels like the last 10 minutes.
00:23:32
red23
ah
00:23:37
Jen
I want to see the rest of the story progress.
00:23:39
red23
Yes. Well, that is a long time.
00:23:39
Jen
Like I get it. They had sex. Move, we can move on. I don't know. Maybe I sound like someone who's not getting enough sex, don't I?
00:23:46
red23
No, I'm sure i am sure that's not... But I think it's also like I don't watch a lot of new shows. um
00:23:52
Jamie
I thought that's when this was going to end so differently.
00:23:53
red23
um
00:23:55
Jamie
You just got new shows.
00:23:55
Jen
Yeah.
00:23:56
red23
I don't watch a lot of pornography.
00:23:57
Jen
you
00:23:58
red23
No, I didn't watch what you thought I was going say there. So I'm not exposed... like you know The older shows just don't do it that much. But yeah, sometimes you see you're like, that was totally pointless.
00:24:09
red23
And I think it sometimes it's like it's more like we're known for this or now we're Swedish so we've got a show like our... I don't know. I don't know. But I was like, this... I gotta cut this. This is totally pointless.
00:24:22
red23
Because especially you don't know the characters yet, then like what is the point?
00:24:22
Jen
yeah
00:24:25
red23
I mean, I don't care she's having sex with that guy because i don't know who she is and I don't know who he is.
00:24:27
Jamie
Yeah.
00:24:30
red23
like, I don't...
00:24:31
Jen
i I think, you know, I could never, I'd never make it as an actor for many reasons, but this is one, like, I would never be convinced that there was an artistic requirement to do a sex scene.
00:24:32
Jamie
Yeah.
00:24:43
Jen
I'd be like, how would it change the the movie or the show if I just refused to do this sex scene?
00:24:44
Jamie
Yeah.
00:24:47
Jamie
yeah
00:24:49
Jen
Not at all. So I just would never do them.
00:24:51
red23
Well, yes, I think some actors do have a no sex scene or no duty to see flaws.
00:24:57
Jen
Very special.
00:24:57
Jamie
Yeah. Fair enough.
00:25:00
Jen
and Anyway, that's my rant over.
00:25:01
red23
But I think you're 100% right that she did such a great job in that scene because, yeah, really in a very short space of time, he's just climbing through her window.
00:25:01
Jamie
Yeah, that's...
00:25:05
Jamie
Yeah.
00:25:11
red23
She's excited to see him, but there's a lot of emotion there already, like in that short scene.
00:25:18
Jen
I really believe they are a couple and that they're wild about each other you know
00:25:21
red23
Yes, yes.
00:25:25
Jamie
I mean, I think... prompted by that I'm going to skip ahead from one of my points and go from B'Elanna does a fantastic job of making that believable and well acted to I think empathising with the character rather than the actor I feel like saying B'Elanna good for you at the very end making a scene and going for justice even when you might feel that your credibility was was not there and you know i think it's Joel Brel the lead in Arun is is just relentlessly gaslighting you and it looks like the captain isn't going to side with you although she does the moment that there's a moment sort of consider i find myself really impressed by the character as someone who just i find I struggle with
00:26:16
Jamie
even making a point when I don't feel like I have a position of credibility in a room and I just think she does a magnificent job as a character of doing that but also as an actress of I suppose expressing the vulnerability and the challenge in doing so does that make sense?
00:26:37
Jen
Absolutely. And I empathise. I'm the same. i
00:26:43
Jamie
hmm
00:26:43
Jen
i mean, maybe it's an age thing as well, but certainly more as I get older, I think I feel the same in situations where I just I know I'm not going be able articulate well enough.
00:26:46
Jamie
Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.
00:26:54
Jamie
Hmm.
00:26:55
Jen
And I just say, see I'm not gonna not going to get involved in this. It's not I don't know how
00:27:00
Jamie
yeah
00:27:03
Jen
ah um would. try and get across what was happening to B'Elanna, if it was me, um better than she does in that scene.
00:27:17
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm.
00:27:18
Jen
But also, i mean, the fabulous thing about that scene is that, you know, she goes in there and she's she's a little bit like, you know, you could mistake, i mean, we none of us would mistake it, but you could mistake it for so someone, crazy person, you know, who's just, you know, acting crazy, hysterical woman,
00:27:33
Jamie
yeah
00:27:35
Jen
um But all of her all of her crew immediately, despite the f fact she's acting a little bit a little bit over OTT, immediately want to hear her out, which I love.
00:27:46
Jamie
Yeah.
00:27:47
Jen
Such a Janeway characteristic.
00:27:49
red23
Yes, definitely.
00:27:51
Jamie
That's true. I'm glad.
00:27:54
red23
And she doesn't back down. she i think she finished it.
00:27:56
Jamie
No.
00:27:56
red23
She goes on until she is finished. Like she doesn't like get halfway through and then, which I feel not that I'd be in that situation, but I would, I would, even if I, if I could start, I'd be like, okay, never bye.
00:28:00
Jamie
Yeah.
00:28:04
Jamie
right Yeah.
00:28:06
Jen
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:09
red23
Sorry.
00:28:09
Jen
hey Easily, easily, yeah. Both, yeah.
00:28:14
Jamie
I felt blue. um Red, I think it's it's you, my friend.
00:28:18
red23
Ah, yes. um Oh, man, I wanted to say when, ah back to your point, sorry, Jane, this but I mean, I'll have my own point. But when, actually, no, actually, it's related to my point.
00:28:32
red23
Sorry, well, but I thought there's a bit of a dream oversharing between Bellana and Chakotay. I don't know if you thought this, but when she tells them about
00:28:38
Jen
I
00:28:41
red23
It's the most sensual dreams or the most sensual dreams she's ever had. um And I love talking about dreams with people, but even my colleagues sometimes, but I don't think I would tell them I was having my most sensual dreams ever.
00:28:56
red23
But, uh, so i was like,
00:28:57
Jamie
Can check something? Are we using central as code for sexual here?
00:29:00
red23
no, she said sensual. She did say I'm having, said, oh, kitty.
00:29:02
Jamie
yeah I know, but I feel... What?
00:29:06
red23
I saw kitty and Jenny's background. Sorry.
00:29:08
Jen
Oh, wait, where is... I didn't see Kitty.
00:29:09
red23
I went down your passage. Walk past your door?
00:29:13
Jamie
no
00:29:13
Jen
Oh, I missed her.
00:29:16
red23
Sorry, I can't see a cat and not say kitty.
00:29:18
Jamie
Oh, Kitty.
00:29:18
red23
It's... Oh, kitty!
00:29:19
Jen
There she is, she's back.
00:29:19
Jamie
Oh, she looks tiny in that.
00:29:23
Jen
Oh, she's in an affectionate
Serious Themes and Character Debates
00:29:25
Jen
mood. Oh, sorry, this is very boring for listeners.
00:29:28
Jamie
this So we mean central.
00:29:32
red23
Um... Yes, no, but B'Elanna says to Chakotay, because he's trying to dig into why she keeps oversleeping, and then she's like, I'm having these dreams, and they're more like, you know, they're so intense. And then she does say the most sensual dreams of her life.
00:29:45
red23
So I was like, oh yeah, of course she is.
00:29:46
Jamie
I feel like she's using that as code, but anyway.
00:29:49
red23
I mean, she's not using it as code. She just can't say sexual in the workplace, because that would be really inappropriate, I think.
00:29:54
Jamie
I'm sure I've said the word sexual in the workplace, normally followed by harassment, but anyway.
00:29:59
red23
Yes, but ah so then i was like, oh gosh, this is very, very intimate conversation at work, even though I know they have a very more than work background. I mean, just as in being part of the Marquis and, you know, that kind of thing. But I thought they ended that scene on firmer footing when she was like, if you tell anyone about this, he's like, yes, I know you'll rip my heart out and kill me and everything. And was like, yes, that's back to normal, normal B'Elanna Chakotay. But yeah.
00:30:23
red23
Speaking of the dreams, I did have a little laugh when he wakes her up because she slept through alarm and she's just woken up from that sensual slash sexual dream. And I think she's hugging her her pillow, like her my body.
00:30:34
Jamie
yeah
00:30:36
red23
She's got the body pillow. Come on, which I just thought was quite funny. So that's that.
00:30:42
Jen
Yeah, it's pretty, they're pretty open with each other, aren't they? they do
00:30:45
red23
Yeah.
00:30:46
Jen
I think they, do you know what, I think sensual was the right word though, because yes, it was sexual, but that wouldn't convey all of it, because it was this
00:30:53
red23
and
00:30:54
Jamie
Yeah, no, that that's fair. I'm just being a smutty teenager.
00:30:58
Jen
and teenage boy.
00:30:59
red23
Hugging his body pillow.
00:31:00
Jen
Yeah.
00:31:01
Jamie
Her, Monty Dillow, red, her, but yes.
00:31:01
red23
Sorry.
00:31:01
red23
Oh. Oh.
00:31:03
red23
ah sorry
00:31:06
Jen
yeah I mean yeah like Hugh read I love discussing dreams but I don't think I'd be discussing any dreams of that nature with anyone but well actually I do tell Jamie
00:31:06
Jamie
oh dear
00:31:13
Jamie
yeah i can neither confirm or deny um jenny i think it's over to you
00:31:21
Jen
Oh, what next? Oh yes. ah I mean, it's a bit of a non, and on I don't know, maybe you guys will have some thoughts on this.
00:31:32
Jen
I just found, I really enjoyed this episode. ah I did think it was a bit of a weird progression. Like it started out quite sexual innuendo, sort of quite jokey jokey, um you know, between B'Elanna
00:31:46
Jamie
Hmm.
00:31:49
Jen
and Chakotay where she tells them all about it and then basically threatens to kill him, don't you, don't tell anyone.
00:31:53
Jamie
Hmm.
00:31:54
Jen
And then you've got Harry who's hitting off with one of the aliens, I can't remember what they're called.
00:31:58
Jamie
Hmm.
00:32:00
Jen
um And it's all quite lighthearted and then it ends with like genocide and brainwashing and loads of serious stuff.
00:32:07
Jamie
mr
00:32:08
Jen
um I loved it, but yeah, it was a really strange concoction of themes. Anyone else find that?
00:32:16
red23
That is, yeah, I mean, it is, um, I guess from the minute she's having this intense dream, you know, something's going on, but I, because you said like, oh, that sex scene, I was like, and I was like, what sex scene?
00:32:26
Jamie
Hmm.
00:32:29
red23
So i went back towards the beginning. I was like, oh yes, I'd totally forgotten about the fact that there was that scene where Harry's like, oh, let's all go to dinner.
00:32:31
Jamie
Hmm.
00:32:37
red23
Then one lady drops out, then it's him, B'Elanna, and the engineer, um And then Blahn is like, oh no, I'm going rest. Why don't you go without me? And they're like, okay. And then she's like, no, i insist.
00:32:48
Jen
Thank you.
00:32:49
red23
Like, that it why didn't they like try pressure me to join them?
00:32:51
Jamie
Yeah.
00:32:51
Jen
since this
00:32:52
red23
But, and it's funny because I had like, oh, I totally forgot that that that there there was this potential setup between Harry and this visiting engineer, um which is often the setup for other types of stories.
00:33:01
Jamie
Hmm, yeah, yeah.
00:33:05
red23
So it was almost a little bit like a, um not a red herring, But like, just not a distraction, but like you're expecting one kind of story. Oh no Harry's going get into some kind of, kind of get himself been into all kinds of trouble with this alien species because he's going do something wrong.
00:33:22
red23
I don't know. But then it actually went in a completely different direction.
00:33:23
Jamie
Hmm.
00:33:27
Jen
Yeah.
00:33:27
red23
So yeah, I mean, I don't think I would have noticed, or realized that without kind of rewatching the beginning, but I was like, oh yeah, it was that set up. And then we never heard about it again. Like, yeah.
00:33:38
Jamie
yeah interesting
00:33:40
Jen
Maybe they were just trying to introduce her because then later on she
00:33:44
red23
Yeah.
00:33:44
Jen
um becomes ah crucial part of the ending but yeah it's a weird way to introduce her with oh she's gonna get together with Harry there's gonna be this whole storyline yeah I know what you mean
00:33:53
Jamie
Well, it's a useful plot device and it lends an innocence to proceedings that, you know, with the rest of everything that's going on of, you know, X-rated TV and B'Elanna's head and, you know, random genocide.
00:34:06
Jamie
The likeness is much appreciated, which I think Harry's innocence brings to it. um i I would like maybe to, ah I mean, i'm I'm tempted between making a point about something that doesn't chime or making another HR focused complaint about one of the crew's performance.
00:34:26
Jamie
which Which would you like me to go for?
00:34:28
Jen
Hey, chop. Hey, chop.
00:34:30
red23
Okay.
00:34:30
Jamie
guess Right, well, then I'm just going to go come straight ahead and say what everyone is thinking. I find Chakotay's tolerance of ah bridge officer's continuous lateness due to having horned dreams outrageous.
00:34:46
Jamie
Multiple times she's late, and we know very well that if that was a man who was Starfleet officer, where it was with Tom Paris, he'd have been Brigadooned in short order.
00:34:58
Jamie
I find this outrageous, sexist, marqueist, and I think it should be stamped out.
00:34:59
red23
okay ae two i have I have to interject here because if this ties in with, sadly, nothing I've ever said before, but what I have been thinking recently is people don't understand equivalence.
00:35:13
red23
I see a lot of social media posts where like, well, this is like this, and why is this like this? And I'm like, those are two different things. Why you trying to make them equivalent? First of all, B'Elanna is never late.
00:35:24
red23
So for her to be late is...
00:35:25
Jamie
She's late three times in this episode.
00:35:27
red23
is very unusual and when she if she's sleeping through her alarm there's very little that she can do if she's not like she's not going out and staying up until 3am it's just something very strange going on tom paris on the other hand has a record of tardiness and being like disobedient and partying all night so they are not the same
00:35:42
Jamie
i I think that's just judging someone on their past behaviour rather than their present behaviour. You realise that I'm coming up with all of these things to annoy people rather than anything that I sincerely think.
00:35:49
red23
that's how people are judged
00:35:55
Jamie
And Balada has laced at least three times in this episode. And I think it's outrageous that once the cause is known as Horn Dreams, it should be tolerated. and find that appalling.
00:36:03
red23
Well, then she explains that she thinks something else is going on and then she has to go to sick bay, And then, um,
00:36:08
Jen
Also she can't control her dreams.
00:36:09
Jamie
Well, doesn't stand as straight there.
00:36:10
Jen
i mean
00:36:11
Jamie
He more sort of hangs around and listens and is like, ooh. But yes, I think that HR will take a dim view of this. And as the HR officer of the podcast, I'm taking a dim view of it. So, no, no, no, no.
00:36:24
Jamie
I do, however, understand the point you were making about false equivalence, which I'm rather gratuitously drawing in the interest of humour as opposed to a sincerely held view. ah
00:36:33
red23
just funny that it tied in with something I've been thinking every day for the last couple of days.
00:36:38
Jamie
oh god
00:36:39
Jen
Too much Twitter Red or...
00:36:39
Jamie
you want do want to share or for sharing off
00:36:43
red23
Huh?
00:36:44
Jamie
want to share or for sharing all
00:36:45
red23
No, no, I wish I could save something, but they'll be like, if these people ought do that, then why can't these people do that? Oh, I'm like, that's just not the same thing.
00:36:52
Jamie
Yeah, I know.
00:36:53
red23
I'm so confused.
00:36:53
Jamie
Oh, I totally get it
00:36:54
Jen
thank
00:36:55
Jamie
I think we should pretend that we're actually talking about that for a few more minutes and then you can just sort of edit it with like blanked out sounds on the podcast.
00:37:04
red23
ah
00:37:04
Jamie
We're having the most explicit chat about, you know, vile goings on ah from various folk who are just being willfully blind and not seeing the reality of life.
00:37:14
red23
Yeah, it's just, I feel like everyone, I mean, it's all sides of all all things and something probably not even that important.
00:37:14
Jamie
However...
00:37:19
red23
It's just me being like, why you trying to say those things with the same? Maybe I'm wrong though, so who knows. yeah
00:37:25
Jamie
Everything, everywhere, all the time.
00:37:25
red23
But Jenny jaie was right that, Jenny was right, Valana can't help her dreams. And in this case, she really can't because someone is like telepathically significant to her.
00:37:35
Jamie
And what what can I say?
00:37:35
Jen
I really thought you were gonna say...
00:37:37
Jamie
The telepathic staff aren't making that clear doing their job for a job. Sorry, Jenny, your hand has leapt up.
00:37:43
Jen
i really thought you gonna say, Red, Jenny's right. Too much Twitter.
00:37:48
Jamie
and Too much what?
00:37:50
Jen
that Jenny was right. Too much to Twitter. I'm reading too much Twitter. Or what's it called?
00:37:54
red23
yes that that's x that's x now to be fair yes i think ah i'm going to take a break because this equivalence is like i can't read this it's too i guess it's to maybe i just keep thinking it's dumb but maybe it's more dishonest so yeah
00:37:55
Jen
It's called X now. thanks
00:38:04
Jamie
All right.
Themes of Denial and Brainwashing
00:38:09
Jamie
I probably is willfully dishonest. Does someone say just asking questions by any chance? OK, because that's often a giveaway.
00:38:15
red23
no what was
00:38:18
Jen
Do you know what they do say though, Jamie?
00:38:18
Jamie
Red. Sorry?
00:38:20
Jen
That you have said on this podcast earlier, you say, blah, blah, prove me wrong.
00:38:20
Jamie
sorry
00:38:26
Jen
and i was like, oh no, that is such a social media post.
00:38:26
red23
Oh,
00:38:30
Jen
but It's quite a right wing social media posting.
00:38:31
red23
um
00:38:33
Jamie
Well, i mean i I mean, I deleted my account years ago, actually.
00:38:33
red23
a
00:38:34
Jen
Too much Twitter for you i
00:38:39
Jen
two.
00:38:40
Jamie
About the time it was becoming X, weirdly.
00:38:43
Jen
I was going to prescribe you both like, like,
00:38:44
Jamie
um No, but anyway, I hear what you're saying.
00:38:47
Jen
Great from social media. Ooh.
00:38:50
Jamie
um
00:38:51
red23
Actually, I am, well, I mean, I think I'm just going off a bit, reading all people's stupid thoughts, but some, I mean, I do like the ill historian and the, ah you know, the lady who talks about medieval medieval um seasons and the lady who does her walks in the Lake District, but yes, I think it's ruining my eyes, so I've got some books from the library, Anthony Horowitz.
00:38:51
Jamie
i
00:39:08
Jamie
Yeah. I also really like Suzy Dent on it, but anyway.
00:39:11
Jen
o
00:39:13
red23
Oh yeah, Susie Dent, more of my Swedish crime, Hakannessa.
00:39:18
Jen
Do you know what comes out in one week?
00:39:20
Jamie
on
00:39:20
Jen
Which, read ah you might not be as excited because I know you read one and you're like, eh, medium. But um the new Miles Cameron, Whale Song.
00:39:25
Jamie
What?!
00:39:28
red23
Oh yes, yeah, okay.
00:39:30
Jen
I'm very excited about this, very excited.
00:39:34
Jamie
Noted. I think it's one of the best novels I've ever read, Fight Me.
00:39:35
red23
Yeah, that is exciting.
00:39:38
Jamie
Just to throw in another catchphrase of stuff, you know, prove me wrong.
00:39:40
Jen
Right, no.
00:39:41
red23
I guess that's like, guess not right wing, it's right literature? I don't know, what does that prove me wrong?
00:39:46
Jamie
I think I can't talk to you.
00:39:46
Jen
yeah
00:39:47
red23
is the best novel, prove me wrong.
00:39:52
red23
um Yeah, so i think... Whose point was it? Was I talking? I can't remember.
00:39:58
Jamie
It's to you. It's to you, Red. We've been talking about my HR complaints that are false equivalents to be annoying.
00:40:02
red23
Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
00:40:04
Jamie
Let's go with you, Chief.
00:40:06
red23
Well, ah okay, maybe this is too much sex for one podcast, but... As soon as I...
00:40:12
Jamie
Is there
00:40:14
red23
As soon as I missed the initial kind of, you know, the music instrument scene. I thought they were putting the telepathy telepathy to good use in that scene between, wish I could know these characters' names, the young woman and the young man when they meet like in secret.
00:40:33
red23
when she i guess it's B'Elanna's memory. um There's just been some announcement in the square and they're like, we're going to fight for our race or I don't know. And then she runs into her lover um and he's like, oh, come see me tonight. She's like, oh, I can't. I've got dinner with my dad or whatever.
00:40:47
red23
And then she's like, well, what would you do? i came and he's like, let me show you. And then he puts a hand on my back to do the telepathy. And I was like, good use of telepathy, but I wouldn't say, I don't know, putting it to good use.
00:40:59
Jen
Yeah, I was expecting a dirty talk scene, but no.
00:40:59
red23
But, yes.
00:41:02
Jen
it's
00:41:02
Jamie
Yeah!
00:41:04
Jen
I mean, that is a great way star Trek Get Out Claws as well, you know, like pre-Watershed wave.
00:41:07
red23
Yes, exactly. Yes, very family friendly.
00:41:10
Jen
to
00:41:11
Jamie
I don't know.
00:41:13
red23
ah Like they can just, they don't have to
00:41:13
Jamie
I'm going to look at it.
00:41:19
red23
I'm just gonna sound pretty biblical. Defile themselves with words they can just share thoughts.
00:41:25
Jamie
with words.
00:41:29
Jamie
Red... Reddy Roo.
00:41:33
Jen
Jamie's blushing red.
00:41:35
Jamie
I don't know what, that's just, I think the word defile is like really...
00:41:37
Jen
it
00:41:40
Jamie
I don't know what I dislike about it, but ew.
00:41:42
red23
It's pretty scary.
00:41:43
Jen
I don't know why it just always that word it always springs to mind like not biblical things but the scene in Harry Potter where you know Rowena Ravenclaw of the grey ghost of Ravenclaw Tower is talking about the
00:41:51
Jamie
Oh, I know the one, I know the one, wait.
00:41:58
Jamie
Yeah.
00:42:01
Jen
what was it like the tiara relic thing that he defiled it with dark magic.
00:42:03
Jamie
Yeah, he defiled it about the tier I've been made into a Horcrux.
00:42:08
Jen
Yeah.
00:42:09
Jamie
Oh dear.
00:42:11
Jen
Anyway, tangent.
00:42:11
Jamie
That makes me smile.
00:42:12
red23
No, another Harry Potter tangent. No problem.
00:42:14
Jamie
Um, Tony, I think.
00:42:14
red23
I really need to catch up.
00:42:17
Jamie
I think you're next in the...
00:42:17
Jen
Over to me. Oh, is red still there?
00:42:20
red23
Yes.
00:42:20
Jamie
Yeah.
00:42:20
Jen
Oh yes you are.
00:42:21
red23
Yeah.
00:42:22
Jen
um my goodness, you were sitting so still red, I thought you'd frozen.
00:42:25
Jamie
Anyway. I actually actually thought she had as well.
00:42:27
Jen
um My next point. my last one.
00:42:38
red23
Yes. Oh, has Jenny frozen?
00:42:39
Jamie
Rowena Ravenclaw.
00:42:41
red23
Oh, maybe I have frozen.
00:42:41
Jen
So I just had a point about the ending that I love it, I love the ending.
00:42:45
red23
Oh,
00:42:47
Jen
I just think it's just really well done.
00:42:49
red23
what is going
Character Motivations and Standout Elements
00:42:50
red23
on? I've got your internet.
00:42:50
Jen
Leaves it open, you know there's room for hope, it's resolved but you're still left wondering a little bit, kind of but left wanting more but
00:42:52
Jamie
Oh
00:42:59
Jamie
no, oh no.
00:43:00
Jen
but does feel kind of... oh oh I think we lost red! oh no!
00:43:06
Jamie
ah no this This is happening a lot in our podcasts. Either Red's computer or Red herself are becoming so disgusted with what we say she dives off.
00:43:17
Jamie
But hopefully it continues recording.
00:43:17
Jen
oh dear do you have any comments?
00:43:17
red23
Oh dear.
00:43:20
Jamie
Quick, let's say some mean stuff.
00:43:21
red23
Oh dear.
00:43:22
Jen
do you have any any comments on my comments Jamie while we wait for it?
00:43:25
Jamie
Well, no, I agree. I really did love the ending. um I love the fact there is ah pathway through sharing of the secrets. I love the fact it isn't sort of Star Trek's saviour complex of a Starfleet crew riding in roughshod to save the galaxy. I really like that.
00:43:48
Jamie
I like the sort of the reverse telepathy and the concept of I know your memory, I know that it's true, that something happens and it feels like just by something being communicated and believed, that feels like breakthrough.
00:44:04
red23
um Hello? No, you're not back.
00:44:09
red23
Not back.
00:44:11
Jamie
Yeah.
00:44:12
Jen
yeah does.
00:44:14
Jamie
um Yeah, I agree with you I absolutely love it. um And especially ah ah such a contrast from, and this is my last point, the gaslighting from the head and iron throughout the entire episode of, well, maybe it's your cultural difference, or maybe it's an aggregation of memories, maybe it's this or that.
00:44:36
Jamie
um And constantly trying to throw doubt.
Dreams and Personal Experiences
00:44:40
Jamie
It feels such a pure moment, I suppose.
00:44:42
Jen
It's especially the, I think one of the suggestions, or at least B'Elanna asks, are you suggesting that it's all in my head? but I imagine it true gaslighting going on.
00:44:53
Jamie
yeah yeah yeah well yeah and from a position of absolute strength and superiority by a telepath an actual telepath who knows what might be going on um yeah
00:45:08
Jen
Oh, I think I can see Red's name.
00:45:12
Jen
Might be coming back.
00:45:18
Jen
ah
00:45:19
red23
Oh my god, wow.
00:45:20
Jamie
ah.
00:45:20
Jen
She's back!
00:45:22
Jamie
Wow.
00:45:23
red23
I'm on my phone, I don't know what's going on.
00:45:23
Jamie
You made it!
00:45:26
Jen
Oh no.
00:45:26
Jamie
Oh, unbelievable. I mean, I'm impressed that your phone Wi-Fi can maintain this connection.
00:45:29
Jen
We managed to keep it.
00:45:32
red23
Yes, maybe I should try cut off some.
00:45:33
Jamie
Oh, no.
00:45:34
Jen
Oh.
00:45:35
Jamie
I turned it to... Ah, there you yeah I was just saying I'm impressed your phone Wi-Fi can maintain this connection and then it didn't.
00:45:43
red23
Am I not still here? I hope I'm still here. I'm trying to close.
00:45:45
Jamie
You are, yes.
00:45:45
Jen
you You're back, you're back.
00:45:47
red23
Okay. I don't know who who knows what was being recorded, not
Conclusion and Next Episode Preview
00:45:51
red23
recorded. So I will have to edit. because
00:45:54
Jen
Well, we managed to keep the chat going.
00:45:54
Jamie
um
00:45:55
Jen
So if we keep going now,
00:45:56
Jamie
Yeah, we we we did a whole podcast conversation, like including gaslighting from head and arms and
00:45:58
red23
Okay, maybe then. Great. Let's
00:46:04
Jamie
contrast between that and the purity of the last scene with the inaran who sees balana's memory and believes her it was um we were saying it was a very pure moment and we liked it for that i said um what did you think red where where are you and and indeed mine where where are you red
00:46:17
Jen
That was my last point.
00:46:21
red23
Okay, well, I have, let's say, maybe two things that I'll save for the themes.
00:46:27
Jamie
hmm hmm oh
00:46:27
red23
But i thought there were two very good lines, or funny, some funny lines, interesting lines. But the doctor, Tupulana, who's like, I don't want to suppress the dreams. I want, you know, out of curiosity, I want know what happens to this person, because he's like, oh if you take, you know, put this cortical thing on or something.
00:46:37
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:46:45
red23
Um, ah you know we can suppress your dream dreams and then he's like after she's like no i don't want to do that he was like i don't think satisfying your curiosity is worth risking brain damage which i think is his understated humor which i loved and then um later on i can't remember exactly one when but tuba predicts exactly oh yes that jane will continue um the investigation into this kind of potential crimes of this race and then she says to him I wonder how long it's been since I did anything that surprised you, which is again, just another little line about their friendship, which I really liked.
00:47:14
Jen
Oh yeah.
00:47:17
red23
And I can see Jamie's hand is raised in the digital way. So you want to.
00:47:22
Jamie
I just wanted to say that I really, really loved that moment with the captain and Tuvok as well. I absolutely loved it and yeah, totally get where you're at at And I also wanted to say, I never realised on this we could raise hands.
00:47:35
red23
Yeah.
00:47:35
Jen
It's... it...
00:47:36
Jamie
I just found this ability. I'm going to annoy people so badly with it.
00:47:40
Jamie
But yeah, it was an absolutely wonderful moment.
00:47:40
Jen
oh
00:47:44
red23
Yeah, I really liked it.
00:47:45
Jamie
Yeah, probably the one where I most felt a sense of crew camaraderie. though I don't know, the relationship between the crewmates rang a bit false for me this one. like I can't imagine Harry Kim just ditching B'Elanna the way that he does at the start when she says, oh no, um we insist, thanks for asking.
00:48:03
Jamie
I just can't imagine that. That's not Harry.
00:48:05
Jen
who
00:48:05
Jamie
No, Harry's way nicer than Tom Paris maybe, but not Harry.
00:48:06
Jen
I absolutely found that in keeping with his character. no, no. When Harry you gets smitten with someone, he's like in Harry dream world and that is so in keeping.
00:48:14
Jamie
He's still decent.
00:48:17
Jen
What do you think, Red?
00:48:18
Jamie
I don't know.
00:48:19
red23
ah
00:48:19
Jen
The sliding rope?
00:48:21
red23
I'm leaning... i leaning towards Jenny's take, yes. Like, yes. Was he a good crewmate for doing that? Not really.
00:48:32
red23
Is it very Harry? Yes.
00:48:35
Jamie
i so I don't know I'm not sure I agree with that I felt a lot of the captain's behaviour was very out of place this one as well with the whole you know allowing herself to be touched without consent and then mentally telepathed without ah consent as Jobrell puts it but yeah anyway I think that was one line what was the other one that
00:48:56
red23
I think I already gave it the one, the doctor, that the doctor, you know, don't risk brain damage, just to satisfy your curiosity, basically.
00:48:59
Jamie
oh yeah
00:49:04
Jamie
So i I have a question.
00:49:04
Jen
That's very good point.
00:49:04
red23
Seems like good advice.
00:49:06
Jamie
Does the Doctor have the right to ban people doing things for their health as the ship's Doctor, or does he only get to advise?
00:49:13
Jen
I think he did advise. think it was like a question.
00:49:14
red23
Yeah.
00:49:16
Jamie
no, I know that he can advise, but i wonder if he can ban? Because, like, I would surely ban someone from doing something that gives them brain damage, no?
00:49:25
red23
Yes, because he can even take a command away from the doctor if he thinks her health is impaired enough.
00:49:32
Jamie
Yeah.
00:49:32
red23
one
00:49:33
Jamie
Yeah.
00:49:33
red23
But you can't control other people do.
00:49:36
Jamie
Hmm.
00:49:37
Jen
I think it's, yeah, I think it's about how, whether they're mentally capable of making the decision.
00:49:43
Jamie
Hmm.
00:49:45
Jen
So like if someone, you know, it's like DNRs, if someone refuses resuscitation and that's, you know, a legitimate choice for them due to their religion or whatever, i think it's that kind of situation with doctrine as well.
00:49:51
Jamie
Hmm.
00:50:00
Jen
But if they are, you know, compromised, some alien has invaded their brain and made them mad, ah I think he's allowed to step in. That's my understanding of it anyway.
00:50:10
red23
Yeah, he's, I mean, on a much more lesser severe example, I think he's allowed to command someone to take Sigleev, like even a captain, like if he thinks it's in there. I feel like we've seen that in some episodes, or he was threatened.
00:50:23
Jen
Yeah, that rings a bell.
00:50:24
red23
Like if, if you're not, if you you're so stressed, you need to take a break and Jamie's like, no, he's like, I can force you basically. So, um,
00:50:31
Jen
Did you know what? That a really good point because that does break that code. because he's forcing treatment on someone. Yes, it's just to take some holiday, but still the principle is the same, isn't it? So that is a weird one.
00:50:45
red23
i think Well he does also have to be looking out for the health of the crew and the safety of the whole crew. Like if you have someone in charge who's not...
00:50:52
Jamie
Yeah, empowered.
00:50:52
red23
you know, I don't know.
00:50:54
Jen
Hmm.
00:50:56
Jamie
maybe Maybe Dr Powers needs to be a theme on this.
00:51:01
red23
Dr. Powers. Dr.
00:51:02
Jamie
Yes.
00:51:03
Jen
Hmm.
00:51:03
red23
Leham.
00:51:04
Jamie
Powers of a doctor. Not a doctor called powers, but like powers that doctors have.
00:51:04
red23
I was like Austin Powers? Okay, okay. Oh yeah, sorry.
00:51:09
Jamie
Anyway.
00:51:10
red23
I think as soon as so you guys, I think you don't have any more points. I will just wrap up. Actually, ah i can wrap up. My final point is Volana got that suppressor or whatever, that cortical suppressor.
00:51:19
Jamie
Hmm.
00:51:21
red23
And then there's a scene where she's like, no, I don't want to use this. I want to like go back into this dream world and find out the story.
00:51:26
Jamie
Hmm.
00:51:27
red23
It reminded me a little bit of when i I was going through a phase of having like, written I mean, years when I say phase. sorry to bring up dreams, having these really intense dreams.
00:51:35
Jamie
Hmm.
00:51:37
red23
And accidentally discovered that taking magnesium will like, I don't, I either don't remember them or I don't have them.
00:51:41
Jamie
Hmm.
00:51:43
Jamie
Oh, wow.
00:51:44
red23
And so like I would religiously take magnesium. like Even if I forgot to take it, I would get out of bed to take it, which is really not like me.
00:51:47
Jamie
Hmm, interesting. Hmm.
00:51:52
red23
I mean, if I need to pee, I would get out of bed. So it was a big deal for me to get out of bed to take it.
00:51:54
Jen
yeah
00:51:55
Jamie
Hmm.
00:51:56
Jen
okay
00:51:57
Jamie
Hmm.
00:51:58
red23
And the scene where she like rips this cortical or suppressor kind of reminds me im like every now and again, and i was like, oh, screw it. I'm just going to go to sleep with up my magnesium and have the dreams and suffer the consequences.
00:52:08
Jamie
yeah yeah
00:52:10
red23
um But ah yes, 99% of the time I would not choose the dreams.
00:52:15
Jen
I am so fascinated fascinated by this magnesium situation because I occasionally have a week, the old week, where
00:52:15
red23
But anyway.
00:52:24
Jen
I will just have stress stream every single night and it is so tiring and so unpleasant and then it will be fine again for like a month.
00:52:27
red23
Oh, that is so tiring.
00:52:31
Jen
um But I can tell when it's coming and it would be really nice to be able to do something. good I have noticed one thing has been really helping because it it's just lately it seems to have gotten worse.
00:52:40
Jamie
Hmm.
00:52:42
Jen
It's probably just going to work stress but um this is so obvious it's quite embarrassing but I literally just cut out reading anything negative.
00:52:47
Jamie
Hmm.
00:52:51
red23
ah
00:52:52
Jamie
Hmm.
00:52:52
Jen
So like
00:52:52
red23
ah yeah
00:52:53
Jen
I stopped reading the news for a week. um No like negative forum chat. I didn't watch any gritty stuff. No Netflix, nothing like that. only Well, I watched the sort of lighthearted comedy stuff, you know so just really lighthearted stuff like Friends or Big Bang Theory or you know just really fluffy.
00:53:15
red23
yeah wow
00:53:16
Jen
And yeah, they just stopped. So yeah. a Maybe I don't need the magnesium.
00:53:23
red23
Yeah, I mean, I don't...
00:53:23
Jen
but I'm gonna remember that.
00:53:25
red23
i would I would give it a try. I accidentally discovered this when I was actually putting on, like, a magnesium oil on, like, a torn hamstring because someone said, oh, like, magnesium oil might help that.
00:53:32
Jamie
wow. Oh, how'd you tear your hamstring?
00:53:35
red23
Oh, it's many... It's a long time ago and I was by stepping off a pavement, strangely, so don't know what that says about my hamstrings, but...
00:53:37
Jamie
Whoa.
00:53:40
Jamie
Oh.
00:53:40
red23
um And then i was like... So it took... And now I just take it... And now there's all this research about how more it's become more and well-known, I guess, how it can help with sleep and stuff, but I was a fan for a long time, but...
00:53:46
Jamie
Hmm.
00:53:54
red23
My dreams are, it's always the same kind of dream. i don't know if your stress dreams are the same, but I'm traveling, I'm packing, I've gone back to university.
00:53:57
Jamie
Hmm.
00:54:00
red23
I forgot I left stuff at university. Now i'm trying to pack it all up, but I'm going miss the plane.
00:54:02
Jamie
Hmm.
00:54:04
red23
I can't find my ticket like that. So it's always the same thing. But I did notice that I can't, I should not listen to a true crime podcast as I'm falling asleep because one night I did dream about like violent murder something.
00:54:15
red23
I don't know. i don't remember the details. was like, ah okay, no, that's a new kind of dream. And that's directly linked to what I was listening to as I fell asleep.
00:54:21
Jen
That's related, yeah. Yeah.
00:54:22
Jamie
Yeah.
00:54:23
red23
So,
00:54:23
Jen
No, that's what triggered me to try it as well, because but mine are always different, like wildly different about all kinds of different stuff.
00:54:29
Jamie
Hmm.
00:54:29
red23
Okay. Yeah.
00:54:30
Jen
But it's more, some of them as well, I would describe them to you and they wouldn't seem stressful at all. It's more about that they feel stressful, you know, when you wake up and you think, well, the content of that was not stressful.
00:54:35
Jamie
Hmm. Hmm.
00:54:37
red23
Yeah.
00:54:41
Jen
Anyway, anyway um but yeah, the the similar thing happened. It was one morning when I woke up and I thought, you know what, that was, that dream was, well, it's really a nightmare, I guess, but like stress dream. that was directly related to what I'd been reading or watching before I went to bed and so I thought I'm going to just try a little experiment here and it worked!
00:54:54
red23
Yes. Yes.
00:54:59
Jamie
hmm no
00:55:00
red23
Yeah, nice. Glad works.
00:55:04
Jen
Any... sorry, deviating slightly there.
00:55:06
Jamie
no no gosh I mean these sorts of side discussions what make this the podcast our fans know and love um and indeed I love being part of right themes hit me
00:55:18
Jen
I've got loads of themes sex, gaslighting, genocide and also Denial which reminded me of the film Denial which is a great film if you haven't seen it um
00:55:23
Jamie
What's that?
00:55:31
Jamie
ah wow, what's it about?
00:55:34
Jen
it. Oh gosh. So i I can't remember it well enough I just remember that it was fantastic and it had Rachel Weisz in it.
00:55:43
red23
Ah, okay.
00:55:43
Jen
um It was I think it was basically like she's Jewish and
00:55:47
Jamie
Hmm.
00:55:48
Jen
she's taking legal action against someone who is denying the Holocaust ever happened.
00:55:53
Jamie
Oh gosh. Oh yeah, is it is it a British historian who's denying the Holocaust?
00:55:59
Jen
think so. I feel like I don't remember enough to, like, I feel like there's more complexity to it than that, but that's the basics that i remember.
00:56:00
Jamie
Hmm.
00:56:03
Jamie
Yeah.
00:56:06
Jamie
Hmm. Fair enough.
00:56:08
Jen
I just remember that it was absolutely, i was absolutely gripped.
00:56:13
Jamie
Hmm.
00:56:14
Jen
And it it you know how some films just stick in your memory? Obviously, like the content hasn't stuck in my memory very well, but you know, the feeling of having watched them sticks in your memory.
00:56:17
Jamie
Hmm.
00:56:20
Jamie
Yeah.
00:56:22
Jamie
Hmm.
00:56:24
red23
Is it a good courtroom drama from the 90s or is it more recent than that?
00:56:24
Jen
That was one of those.
00:56:29
Jen
Ooh, I didn't do that either.
00:56:32
Jamie
I think...
00:56:33
Jen
I'm sorry, I knew very little about this considering I watched it.
00:56:33
red23
I'll look it up. don't know, I'll look it up.
00:56:35
Jamie
No, I can't. it was actually in 2016,
00:56:40
Jen
I just think she was really good in it.
00:56:42
Jamie
that movie.
00:56:42
red23
I saw her in a streetcar named Isaiah in London.
00:56:45
Jen
Hmm.
00:56:46
red23
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:47
Jamie
Yeah. so it was actually in twenty sixteen
00:56:49
red23
Oh, yeah, so i'm more recent form.
00:56:50
Jamie
um ah movie i yeah
00:56:55
red23
I'm gonna look it up.
00:56:56
Jamie
Absolutely. i recommend it. She is a fantastic actress. um Right. Red, any themes yourself?
00:57:07
red23
Yeah, I mean, i think Jenny's also kind of touched on these, but don't know say this.
00:57:17
red23
But it was an interesting example, an exploration of, I guess, brainwashing, being brainwashed by your
00:57:23
Jamie
Hmm.
00:57:25
red23
loved ones in a sense, because um it's very, I think it's very hard to fight against that when you're young.
00:57:26
Jamie
Yeah, yeah.
00:57:27
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:57:33
red23
But I was pretty shocked.
00:57:33
Jamie
Hmm.
00:57:36
red23
I've got to say when she, so she is torn between these two worlds, the regressives, that what they called them?
00:57:41
Jamie
Hmm. Yeah, progressives and regressives.
00:57:43
red23
and Yeah, and then the kind of, let's say, mainstream society.
00:57:48
Jamie
Hmm.
00:57:49
red23
ah So she was aware of this other society, and she had a lover from this other and element of society, and um just one...
00:57:52
Jamie
Hmm.
00:57:59
red23
kind of very manipulated conversation from her dad and she gave him up and he is executed.
00:58:04
Jamie
Yeah.
00:58:04
red23
So i was pretty shocked that she, but I guess that's, that's obviously, it was just like pretty shocking, but how difficult it is to believe bad things about people that you love or to, that we just accept what they say is the truth basically.
00:58:05
Jamie
Yeah.
00:58:17
Jamie
Hmm.
00:58:20
Jamie
Hmm.
00:58:22
red23
And it's, and I'm not saying she should have, I'm just saying she should have had evidence before she made a decision and instead of just listening to what people say, even if they are.
00:58:31
Jamie
Hmm.
00:58:33
Jamie
Difficult in the moment, but yeah, I know what you mean.
00:58:36
red23
She didn't have to give up that guy.
00:58:39
Jamie
Yeah.
00:58:39
red23
She could have remembered that she knows him and that she spent time with him. um Yeah, but tough.
00:58:48
Jamie
Yeah.
00:58:49
Jen
Yeah, it's quite a jump, isn't it? Like, my thoughts on it we were also just, it's interesting that they chose, I mean, obviously they want a little bit to make it a dramatic episode, but also the fact that rather than just, okay, Dad, I agree with you, fine, but
00:58:59
Jamie
Hmm.
00:59:01
red23
Yes, yes.
00:59:08
Jen
still don't, you could still just not let her dad know that he's hiding, you know, let let him out.
00:59:10
Jamie
Yeah, you could just lie him and get Dathan out of trouble.
00:59:14
Jen
And you know, then you kind of, um you know, he he gets his freedom, but you're not, you know, getting wrong side your dad.
00:59:14
red23
Yeah.
00:59:15
Jamie
Yeah.
00:59:18
Jamie
Yeah.
00:59:20
Jen
So the fact that she specifically decided to give him up, as you say, for execution is, I wonder if it was some kind of, um the story was trying to say something about in order for her to believe
00:59:27
Jamie
Yeah.
00:59:38
Jamie
Hmm. They were killed. Yeah.
00:59:38
Jen
that her family her family
00:59:41
Jen
um don't wouldn't commit murder and wouldn't commit genocide and be involved in something so horrible. She has to convince herself entirely the other way.
00:59:52
Jen
And that means going to the extreme and giving him up.
00:59:52
Jamie
Yeah.
00:59:56
Jamie
Yeah.
00:59:56
Jen
um
00:59:56
red23
Yes, because, I mean, ah you that is a good point, because I was like, surely guy being executed is proving his own point, because he didn't do anything wrong.
00:59:57
Jen
I wondered if it was something like that.
01:00:07
red23
He was just, was he executed for being in her house?
01:00:08
Jamie
Yeah.
01:00:09
red23
I mean, that's not a crime, I presume. So ah and if that doesn't convince her that something is not quite right, then yeah, but maybe she didn't, yeah, like as you were saying, maybe subconsciously
01:00:14
Jamie
Yeah.
01:00:21
Jen
Yeah.
01:00:21
Jamie
Hmm.
01:00:26
red23
And also, I guess, from a story perspective, as we're discussing this, it gives more weight to the ah character's motivation why she would share this experience, perhaps, with Brianna.
01:00:30
Jamie
Hmm.
01:00:37
Jamie
Hmm.
01:00:37
red23
You know, like, she's carrying this real guilt all her life, I think, that she's suppressed and now needs to unload, I would maybe.
01:00:47
Jen
yeah
01:00:50
Jamie
Fair play. Star players, people.
01:00:54
Jen
Yes I choose, well not B'Elanna the actress this time round. I should really learn her name shouldn't it, Roxanne isn't it?
01:01:02
red23
Yes, well done.
01:01:02
Jamie
Roxanne Dawson.
01:01:04
red23
Sorry, Jamie, what?
01:01:04
Jen
Roxanne.
01:01:05
Jamie
Roxanne Dawson.
01:01:06
red23
Oh, yes, of course. Thank you.
01:01:07
Jen
Dawson, okay.
01:01:07
red23
I mean, the fact that I don't know these things.
01:01:10
Jen
I'll try and remember the surname.
01:01:11
Jamie
Oh! I mean, I'm outraged. if You're supposed to be the ex- I'm just the person who doesn't watch Star Trek, and even I know that.
01:01:13
red23
I do know these things.
01:01:18
red23
The thing is, I do know these things when I'm like, when I'm listening to Star Trek podcast during lockdown, I knew every tiny little thing, but then the minute my brain doesn't need that anymore, just like, let's go. I have to reload it all over again.
01:01:28
Jen
you
01:01:31
Jamie
bless.
01:01:31
red23
Hmm.
01:01:33
Jamie
So.
01:01:33
Jen
Yeah, I just thought she's a fantastic actress and I think this was a prime example of her talent.
01:01:38
Jamie
Yeah.
01:01:40
Jen
Mmm.
01:01:41
Jamie
Yep.
01:01:42
red23
I think I'm going to pick, um,
01:01:47
red23
uh, this is a bit, David, the guest actor, because I'm sure he's a very good actor and he was a very good actor.
01:01:51
Jen
Mmm.
01:01:51
Jamie
Oh.
01:01:55
red23
And I thought he did like a very good job in this, uh, role and selling that whole, you know, and love affair.
01:02:02
Jamie
Yeah.
01:02:04
red23
But I only know him from improv on whose line it is it anyway? So to see him in this was really great.
01:02:07
Jamie
Aww. Aww.
01:02:09
red23
Like, yeah. So I think I'll pick him as my star player.
01:02:11
Jamie
Awesome. Fair play. I'm going continue a long theme of myself lightening the tone and also picking inanimate objects and say that in an episode full of action, this object was getting a lot of action.
01:02:28
Jamie
I'm going to pick that musical instrument.
01:02:29
Jen
you
01:02:31
red23
ah The easiest musical...
01:02:33
Jamie
Keyplot device and person having the most fun out there.
01:02:38
red23
I was just about to say the easiest musical instrument to play, and I guess that does tie back to...
01:02:42
Jamie
And easy in more than one way.
01:02:44
red23
Yes. Tie back to the phallic symbolism that Jenny picked up earlier on.
01:02:48
Jamie
yeah
01:02:50
red23
Oh.
01:02:51
Jamie
Absolutely. Absolutely.
01:02:53
red23
ah
01:02:54
Jamie
I think that might be us. I don't know.
01:02:57
red23
Yes, I think so. i guess. um
01:02:59
Jamie
it music cue the music. Salutes.
01:03:01
red23
So it's I don't know what episode we're doing next. I can quickly look it up.
01:03:09
red23
It's gonna take me a little while now because it's not the right.
01:03:13
Jamie
Salutes down.
01:03:14
red23
See you next time. want to know what episode you watching next. Oh yes, sacred ground.
01:03:21
Jamie
No shit.
01:03:26
Jen
the jingle, Red?
01:03:26
red23
See next week and don't hang up because I've got an amber, amber glowing next to me.
01:03:27
Jen
Where's the jingle?
01:03:30
Jamie
Yeah. Also, do we have a jingle? Because I haven't heard the jingle. And I was saluting for it.
01:03:35
red23
Oh, I played it Maybe you didn't hear it because of I'm on amber.
01:03:38
Jen
Ooh.
01:03:39
red23
Okay, I'm going to, yeah.
01:03:40
Jen
oh