Transcript
Jamie: Proper salutes for the theme tune, please.
red23: ah Okay, we're saluting this evening. This is new.
Jamie: Oh my gosh. ah but but No.
red23: Okay, keeping this in the salutes up.
Jamie: Jenny, if I don't see salutes, I'm restarting the music.
red23: Jenny's got a little rebel in her. She's you can't tell me what to do.
Jamie: Right, Red, restart the music.
red23: I'm not going to salute.
Jamie: like
Jen: if Do not restart the music.
Jamie: Restart the music. Restart the music!
red23: I'm not restarting the music. And also, I love the way Jenny won't even salute to her own podcast. So I know...
Jen: I did, I saluted and then, you know, my arm's tired.
Jamie: Let's... but No, you've gotta hold the suit, right? Let's edit it as though, you know, we had a furious argument and then it's been cut and then we're like talking calmly so the editor has been like, get your shit together, people.
red23: Well, I just heard the words editing and then I laughed inside because we know that doesn't happen on this podcast.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: Editing's for amateurs.
red23: Yes.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: we can We can get it in one run, guys. That's how professional we are. decision
red23: Some say some say MacGyver-esque.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: But
Jamie: I'm loving
red23: but I'm waiting for you to tell me where to stop the jingle, Jamie, because when I try to stop it before, okay.
Jamie: this. I'm doing it.
red23: okay
Jamie: yeah
Jen: I mean, it's going to not be a jingle soon. It'll be an actual three-minute song.
Jamie: um um
red23: You know, actually, this is how long in like jingles, theme tunes on TV used to be like in the 80s.
Jamie: until
red23: Like, wow, they devoted a lot of screen time to this intro.
Jamie: Yeah, like we've only given it like 1 minute 20 seconds, so you know, frankly I see people disrespecting the jingle in the same way that MAGA people see people disrespecting the flag. um You know, treasures
red23: Famously, not a very political podcast, but yeah.
Jamie: yeah who must be gone to be you know told off. Anyhow, hello and welcome to this episode of Janeway's Children. We are talking Season 3, Episode 6, Remember.
Jamie: So, we've had theme music. Theoretically, this is when we do the one minute summary, but it feels a little bit weird asking myself to do the one minute summary.
red23: I think you should ask yourself to do the one minute...
Jamie: Red, can you ask me to do the one minute summary?
red23: I'll ask you to do the one minute summary. Jamie, why don't you do the one minute summary? I don't
Jamie: Well, I don't really feel like doing it. Convince me.
red23: know why you always pick on me to do the one minute summary, when you can also ask your wife.
Jen: sit
red23: Jamie.
Jamie: I feel you fundamentally misunderstand the risks that go with marriage, Red.
red23: Okay, okay.
Jen: I can do it if you really, really want.
red23: You know I'm...
Jen: I mean, i think I've done it once in the entire
red23: I think it's...
Jamie: I think I'll do the one minute summary rather than risk my wife you know telling me off. ah So, in this episode of Star Trek Voyager, we see the intrepid crew of Voyager playing chauffeur to a group of apparently peaceful aliens called Anorans, who seem to have a lot in common with Voyager, with whom they're forging trade links and who have exchanged...
red23: Brilliant.
Jamie: notes on technology to do with energy efficiency and energy savings that would presumably be a value to Voyager. In return, Voyager are taking this group of colonists from the Anorans to their home planet.
Jamie: All seems to be going well until Balana seems to be getting some rather intense dreams which turn out to be the portal via which one of the Anorans is trying to tell an ancient and dark historical secret about their planet and its people and how they have treated one of their group.
Jamie: I see a hand up. This isn't a team's call, so I'm going to ignore it.
Jen: Thank you.
Jamie: No, go for it.
red23: Well, I thought that was a brilliant summary, but I did have to push back on the term ancient. I think it happened in that woman's lifetime and she wasn't that ancient when she died. So she seemed about a normal age,
Jamie: She's ancient if I say she was ancient, Red. i think I mean, anyway, the folks who are pushing the fiction that it never happened would like it to be considered ancient.
red23: but otherwise brilliant.
Jamie: So just maybe I was entering into the spirit of that historical fiction.
red23: Good point. Good point.
Jamie: So initial reactions. How are we feeling, pet team? What did we think about it?
red23: I'll let Jenny go.
Jen: Oh, but well, my initial reaction was a comment on someone else's initial reaction.
red23: Oh, yes. Sorry, sorry. but
Jen: then So it's difficult to go first.
red23: That's true. Let me go. ah had no memory of this episode. Like, for ages and ages, that I was really trying to remember because I thought I knew what was about, but then it started and i was like, I don't remember these people, this race.
red23: And then only when they're in the scene in the mess hall and Janeway, or that, that, um, and Orin is playing the musical instrument. as Ah, yes. Okay. I remember, I remember now, but it was strange how it felt very, very new or like, I didn't know it for quite a while.
Jamie: ah
Jamie: I do think having no memory of it is quite ironic given that the telepathic transfer of memory and its denial is the key plot device.
Jen: Oh, and it's called Remember as well.
red23: Uh, yes.
Jen: yeah
Jamie: Exactly.
red23: I agree.
Jamie: Yeah, but i was I was trying to be a little bit more, you know, flouncy about it than just saying, it's called Remember and we don't remember it.
Jen: and
Jamie: um Which is also a valid standpoint. How about you, Jenny? What did you think of it?
Jen: I also have no memory of it, which which is especially weird because I really liked it. um normally i remember the ones I liked. So maybe there's some kind of weird psychological block because it's called Remember.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: you automatically your brain just that blanks it out.
red23: like, I will not remember this episode.
Jen: thank yeah
red23: Don't tell me what to do.
Jamie: Yeah, I mean, it's true.
Jen: We're just really stubborn, Red, we have stubborn brains.
red23: yeah come
Jamie: and And I too had no memory of it, which is ironic because I never watched it. But yeah, but I'm sure I'm finding common ground.
red23: oh
Jamie: You know, we've had a rocky start. People didn't salute the jingle, but, you know, I'm finding common ground. I'm building bridges here. Right. One cool thing.
red23: Yes. Well, I don't always have one cool thing or we don't always have one cool thing, but,
Jamie: Red, you are a cool thing.
red23: ah
Jamie: Don't you dare let me hear you be so down on yourself.
red23: but i did recognize a lot of the guest stars so i thought okay let me for like for once do a proper little bit of a deep dive and i love the fact that so many of them were from motor she wrote and seinfeld i mean they all had very long filmographies in film and television but i watched very limited slice of film and television mostly
Jamie: um
Jamie: Give us some examples and indeed how you describe them.
red23: Mostly Motor She Wrote and Seinfeld. So, um, Dathan, oh, this is a good one, though. The guy who was the hot lover, young lover, if I may call him that.
Jamie: could could we Could we put the correct anagram in front? I.E. Hot Lover.
red23: I, hot lover, but charles he was played by Charles Esten. I don't know if I pronounced that correctly correctly.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: Who has done many things, but who I recognize from whose line is it anyway?
Jamie: Oh, I have no idea.
red23: um yes, so from back in the day, then, um, Eugene Rush, who played the
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: the kind of leader, Joe Brel. but He was on many, many shows that I loved, including like a guest starring in Webster, Airwolf, Magnum P.I., Perfect Strangers, which I found out only had two seasons, which is very sad because as a child, I felt like I watched a lot of it.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
red23: um Then they there was actually, I didn't write her down, but the woman who, she only had like a smallish part, although in the end, she had quite a big part.
Jamie: arms?
red23: ah
Jamie: any the and the engineer in our
red23: The engineer, yeah, she was played by Brennan, no, sorry, Athene Macy. And she was on an episode of Seinfeld, a very funny episode of Seinfeld called The Engagement. She has like a tiny, tiny little part where she's eating peas one by one.
Jamie: Oh, wow.
red23: But yeah, ah she was, um yeah, so there was a lot of, and then, and The final guy, I think Bruce Davison, the guy who played her dad, um the character, Balanis flashback character, Dad.
red23: He was, I recognized him again. He was in many things, but I recognized him from Seinfeld. He played, and i think i wrote it down here, the chairman of the Susan Ross Foundation, which if you've watched Seinfeld, you'll know.
Jamie: ah wow
red23: If you haven't, then nevermind.
Jamie: I have to admit I haven't, but it sound sounds like he's done quite a lot of stuff and I hear that's not going to be in the end.
red23: You haven't watched Seinfeld. Okay. I'll be on next podcast.
Jen: I have not watched any of those shows, Red.
Jamie: I know.
Jen: i i
Jamie: Has anyone here...
red23: Well, you are from the UK.
Jen: well
red23: So that is a, like, that's fair. Yeah.
Jamie: I'm sorry, where are we, Citizen of? Where are we, Citizen of?
red23: No, I'm saying I always said this, but like, I feel like as a kid, I saw British and US TV, but a lot of people, I think back in the day, like, I just get the impression that some UK people, dont I don't know what it was.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: Maybe these shows weren't available here. I'm not sure, but I feel like I had got a good mix growing up as well.
Jamie: No worries. And also, has anyone here actually watched any of that 70s show?
red23: Yes, of course.
Jamie: Is it any good?
red23: The original, yes. Then they did that 90s show, I think.
Jamie: Okay.
red23: But that that's the only show I watched a lot as ah as a teen, for sure.
Jamie: Okay, noted. Interesting. Cool. I suppose we had better get on with this discussion of the Inarans and the concealment of historical genocide that is the plot device of this episode Jenny I believe you're first would you like to go for the series or would you like to take down the gravity of what I have just come out with with something less serious
Jen: I'm gonna start Les series because you know it's the chronology of the episode.
Jamie: that is that is what I hoped you would do
Jen: Yes I mean i just don't know what was going on with that musical instrument. I mean it was basically very phallic in shape.
red23: The musical instrument.
Jen: He held it he held it on his groin. He's stroking it on his groin and then and then Janeway's
Jamie: And just like massaging it with his fingers.
red23: Oh God.
Jamie: Yep. Yep.
Jen: oh, that was wonderful when he finishes playing. and Like, it was just all this sexual innuendo, which obviously ties in nicely with all these, you know, dreams that Valada is having.
Jen: um But, oh, it was just a bit, like, I put, as Frasier Crane would say, it was a bit on the nose.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: It was it's just too much for me.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: I think it was on the nose.
Jen: It was vomit, vomit emoji for me.
Jamie: I actually love the way they've written it, so it's not the vomit emoji, it's the might emoji.
red23: If you...
Jen: yeah
Jamie: 20 years for man's laughter. Must have been one hell of a joke. Sorry, carry on.
Jen: well that's what you do isn't it you do it all in one you
Jamie: I just love the idea of the might emoji.
Jen: you do all in one
Jamie: That this makes it sound even more vomity.
Jamie: having Having had a colleague spend a good half an hour at lunchtime today explaining to me that there was reasons why Hershey's, quote unquote, in her view, tasted of vomit. And then bring me a Guardian article up as well. I quite like the vermite emoji thing as a way of expressing that.
Jamie: I have never seen it. I've never, I do. I have never had a Hershey that tasted a vomit to me. So don't
red23: Other brands are available. Is that what people sometimes say when you mention a brand on a book?
Jamie: know.
red23: Although he just said it tastes like vomit, so I don't think it's really considered a promotion.
Jen: I mean I don't understand it's just a really tasty chocolate I mean
Jamie: Yeah, I really enjoy it as well.
red23: Yeah. Maybe she had a bad experience.
Jamie: maybe i like Maybe I like that particular flavour of Bertie Botts over every flavour beans too. Who knows? Maybe all of Dumbledore's disliked Bertie Botts beans would have been my thing. Don't know.
red23: Showing my lack of some British TV shows there, I think.
Jamie: Right.
red23: But anyway...
Jamie: No, no, no. That's not a British TV show. That's Harry Potter.
red23: Oh, yes, sorry.
Jamie: Yeah, Bertie Botts.
red23: I heard Dumbledore and I was like, that sounds familiar, but I kind of...
Jamie: Dumbledore always gets earwax and vomit flavoured Bertie Pots, every flavoured beans. It's a thing for him. Whereas Harry, the little golden child, apparently tends to always get delicious ones.
Jamie: Or so we're told.
red23: All right. Well, I just want to go back to Jenny's point, if I may, because I did write...
Jamie: Moving on to...
Jamie: Oh, sorry, yeah, go for it.
red23: It's not my point, but I just want to...
Jamie: Go back to the phallic musical instrument. It's important to engage with it.
red23: I feel like... I mean, I've forgotten how you finished that sentence, but you were like, it was very phallic. But I was like, only you have sex on the brain, Jenny, I would say, because I, well, I did not pick that up at all. But what I did write down is that Jenny actually wrote in her notes, WTAF, which I thought was hilarious.
red23: And so for my first point, it was, Jenny just said, WTAF? Question mark, question mark. So...
Jamie: so What? Jenny says WTF and WTF many times.
red23: oh
Jen: maybe I only say it to you Jamie
red23: I'm so open. Yeah.
Jen: yeah
Jamie: That is my privilege.
Jen: I I mean I I mean find it really hard to believe that wasn't intentional that that musical instrument that it it sat directly on his groin and stroking it
Jamie: That was my privilege.
Jamie: Yeah. The way he touches that musical instrument especially, like, that's weird.
red23: Yeah, maybe I'm going to go. i did I did go rewatch something and I'll show you a little bit later, but maybe I'll go rewatch that. What I did think about that musical instrument was like, it's a little bit like ChatGPT. Like, does it really need skill to play?
red23: Like, because you just wave your hands over it and then like...
Jamie: Shit, shit, shit. And fills your emotions. Yeah, Janeway, I've never ever learnt how to play a musical instrument.
red23: And suddenly she could do it.
Jamie: Yeah, let me touch you and you can play.
red23: Yeah, exactly. So that was, I guess I'm too focused on the technology side of things at the moment, Shay.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. I, yeah.
red23: You've got...
Jamie: No, I totally get that. And I share your absolute disgust at Jenny swearing by saying WTAF. That's a point.
red23: This wasn't disgusting.
Jamie: I'm not having this devolving into the sort of emotional shambles we see on the Delta Flyers. People swearing left, right, and centre. Anarchy. Emotions bubbling far too readily to the surface. We're not having any of that. So, Jenny...
Jamie: I'll ask you to keep the language under control. This is a family production. We'd like to keep it universal.
Jen: did
red23: want to apologize for outing Jenny because she didn't actually say on the podcast. She just wrote it on her notes.
Jen: I think, well...
Jamie: It was indicative. People would have thought it. I'm sorry. And as Ted Lasso's youngest actor says, it counts if you make someone think it and therefore have to put money in the swear jar.
red23: Okay.
Jen: and I think also, you know, I didn't think there would be any authenticity to be using it now because when I wrote that, I was watching the scene and I did feel
red23: Yes. Yes.
Jen: WTAF. But now here with you guys, you know, it doesn't seem such a big deal.
Jamie: yeah yeah
red23: I get I get it.
Jamie: so i if i may would like to take the conversation in another direction but once uh once more as ever don the mantle of the ship's crews hr representative and performance manager And I would like to talk about the performance of the ship's telepathic staff during this episode, specifically Tuvok and Kes.
Jamie: Can we just talk about how they're about as useless as wet sock made of tissue this episode?
red23: oh
Jamie: We have a situation in which someone is receiving telepathic messages from a mystery person. They don't get involved to help out. They have no idea what's going on. We need better from them.
Jamie: The performance level in this episode of the ship's telepathic staff, I think, is abysmal. Prove me wrong.
red23: I can't, that's a really good point.
Jamie: We keep them around for a reason and put up with all their weird shit and, you know, making making cocoons and eating Earth and terrifying Neelix. We put up with that for a reason, because they can protect us from telepathic attack.
Jamie: What use are they this time round?
red23: Hmm. I'm trying to quickly think on my feet to see. i to say i mean, the doctor could sense all the telepathic activity.
Jamie: You can't sense it. You can only stand it on the frontal lobe.
red23: i mean, he could, sorry, not sense it. Yes, he could actually measure it.
Jamie: But it's not about movement.
red23: I guess they...
Jamie: It's about to fence and what's going on.
red23: Ah. I think you've raised a good point, Jamie. You know when the leader says, oh, she must just be picking up our, like, residual memories or something. um It's actually a lie, because if that was the case, then...
red23: Don't you think Tuvok or Kez would also also have be having the same experience? She was actually only getting those memories because someone was intentionally sending them to her.
Jamie: Exactly. And they don't pick up on that. And they don't pick up on that. I'm sorry, but I just... Performance Improvement Plan for all of them.
red23: ah
Jen: Thank you.
Jamie: Right. There will be order. We will follow the order of the list. Red, over to you.
red23: OK, yes. um Well, maybe I'll skip that one. It was very minor. ah But Tying into a little bit, oh, don't know.
red23: Maybe this is going to tie into what someone else has said. I only read but Jenny's first WTF comment, so I don't know. Sorry. OK, maybe I'll go with my original second comment. Wow, that's annoying and listening to me.
red23: ah For a minute, when this episode started, i thought we were back with the Banayans. You remember when Tom Paris nearly got convicted of murdering the scientist because he was having, he was attracted to her wife and it was that kind of film noir episode because the headgear was quite similar except the Bunnians have the feathers and these guys just have, um I guess, not feathers, but the...
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: Oh yeah. um
Jamie: I
Jamie: don't know. I was really struggling until you described that to remember who the bird race were. There
red23: Yes. I mean, I had to look it up. I didn't know that off the top. So ah that to me, there was a bit of a similarity in the costumes, which I'm sure will happen from time time.
Jamie: you go.
red23: But then I remember just like the big game. It wasn't the same race.
Jamie: interesting it's kind of yeah I had almost forgotten entirely about that film noir episode and um there is something maybe there that they sort of often use that slight style of headgear to provide a little bit of cultural differentiation where the crew of Voyager are engaging with species who are so culturally close to Voyager that um
red23: and embrace
Jen: Well,
Jamie: ah little bit of differentiation is needed to make that credible
red23: know Yeah, yeah. But I do like it when you re-meet a species. So but that didn't happen in this episode. But yeah, anyway, that was just a tiny, tiny point.
red23: So back to you, Jamie.
Jamie: no no that's okay goofy go for it jen that's okay
Jen: well remember
red23: Oh, sorry. Yes, Jamie.
Jen: Oh, me again. was just thinking about Red's Point. Do know, this isn't a point, it's just a comment on Red's Point, I guess. I really didn't like that costume, that headdress for the aliens.
Jen: I don't know why. I
Jen: just i think because it doesn't really ring true, it just looks like netting on the head. And I don't know like if they committed to that, like this is actually like a headdress,
Jamie: Yeah, yeah.
red23: yes
Jamie: Was it
Jen: then ah probably be okay but I think they were trying to make it into some kind of anatomical feature.
Jamie: was it anatomical or was it clothing? It's difficult to say.
Jen: Maybe it was supposed to be clean or their hair. don't know. It's very weird choice.
Jamie: i mean what what What did you think, Red? Did you think it was clothing or did you think it was anatomical?
red23: That's good point because on the one character, let's call him the leader, because I'll never remember the names. I kind of got the impression anatomical, but then on the young engineer, it seemed very clearly a headdress, at least the way I'm remembering it.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Yeah, because it was different colour and...
red23: So not very consistent. Yeah.
Jamie: Oh, bro.
Jen: I don't know. it was just a... on On to the next. ah So, this is a bit controversial. um I am not really, that I can remember, ever a fan of any sex scenes. Like, in anything, ever.
Jen: Like, I know, it's really prudish, but I i just have never not thought... there was no need to put that scene in. Like it didn't add to the story whatsoever.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: So to me, it always feels like ah like an unnecessary scene, I guess.
Jamie: Yeah,
Jen: And it's just been put in for a bit of, you know, to get the punters in.
Jamie: I don't know.
Jen: Do you know what I mean? um So, however, ah ah so, you know, I'm coming at this with already like a negative, you know, because I'm one of those.
red23: Yes.
Jen: ah I have to say though, I think Balarna did a great job at acting it. I really believe she was like having a really great time with that guy. So kudos to Balada.
Jamie: What?
red23: Yes, I think it is a nice scene. And I forgot that I did remember that I did read your next point. Sorry, Jenny.
Jamie: ah
red23: And I was like, what sex scene? And I went back to the beginning and re-watched it because I like, I guess I was...
Jamie: There's
Jen: okay
Jamie: nothing but sex scenes in this thing.
red23: i mean I mean, maybe there was a second sex scene because I stopped after the first one. but um and Because often when I'm starting to watch the episode, I'm like making my notes and everything. And I'm like you.
red23: i don't really... I don't need... I like it.
Jen: Yes, join the prude club.
red23: Sometimes a romantic scene is like, if it's really, you like really wanted them to get together.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: You're yay. Like that classic, whatever.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: But I don't need gratuitous sex scenes.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: but But then it's like, you're really happy that you see them kissing and then maybe they just go into the bedroom and shut the door.
red23: Oh.
red23: Yes.
Jen: We don't really need to see the...
red23: Well, I love the era where, yes, they're like two, they lock and then they disappear below screen. You're like, I don't know if you remember.
Jen: Yeah, like that's enough. Like why prolong it?
red23: But.
Jen: You know, feel like lately there's lot of shows that they do they kiss and they're like going through.
red23: Oh, yes. Yeah.
Jen: And it's like, it could end there, but it doesn't. It goes on for like five, it feels like, to me it feels like five, 10 minutes of just fake sex.
red23: you
Jen: And I'm like, I did not sign up for porn. So why is this still going, this scene still going on?
Jamie: yeah
Jen: Anyway, maybe it's just me.
Jamie: yeah wait you didn't sign you didn't sign up for fake porn did you say?
red23: Well,
Jamie: just porn?
Jen: Just, well, I suppose it's fake porn, isn't it?
red23: I just, yeah, I just laughed because I was like, I guess I am a bit desensitized now, even though i hardly watch any shows with any girl too sexy.
Jen: Yeah, because they're acting.
Jamie: yeah I'm not actually not going to engage with that I'm not going engage with that
Jen: Just to probably clarify that.
red23: But I was like, what sexy? Then I went back and then i was like, oh, this is so sweet. They really like each other. But yes, they, she actually like that shirt comes off her shoulder and you get her whole naked back, which seems quite a lot for Star Trek.
red23: Not a lot for primetime TV, but yes, you are reminding me.
Jen: It's quite risque.
red23: I sort of, I watched this series called Rebecca Martinson, which is, is it Swedish? I think it was Swedish. Like, you know, it's based on a series of books by an author whose name I read, but we'll never remember now.
red23: um And so this first series is very good, I would say, because she is a lawyer and then she has to go back to a small hometown and someone's died. Then she realizes they've been murdered and she solves the case. And then it's like, it's only eight episodes, I think, but you know, Rebecca Martinson.
Jamie: What is it called? Rebecca...
red23: um But in the very first episode, in the very first five minutes, there is one of those very gratuitous sex scenes. It's like, why is this happening?
Jamie: gosh.
red23: We don't know this character yet. We don't know who she's with.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: Is it to say that what is actually happening? And honestly, it was like they could have cut that and it would have made zero difference to the show. Yeah.
Jen: It's just, it's clearly just to get people, new not even me and you, because we don't like it, but presumably other people like interested and hooked and watching it.
red23: yeah
red23: Well, know if you remember like Game of Thrones came up, but I just remember some guy friends or my friend.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: I don't know. It was just very well acknowledged that a lot of men were watching it because there was a lot of naked ladies in it.
Jamie: That was.
Jen: Hmm.
red23: A lot of boobs.
Jamie: That was. Until.
Jen: It's the duration as well.
Jamie: Until.
Jen: Like I genuinely have now. I mean, I only did it recently, but for the first time I fast forwarded because I was like, these people have been been faking sex on screen for what feels like the last 10 minutes.
red23: ah
Jen: I want to see the rest of the story progress.
red23: Yes. Well, that is a long time.
Jen: Like I get it. They had sex. Move, we can move on. I don't know. Maybe I sound like someone who's not getting enough sex, don't I?
red23: No, I'm sure i am sure that's not... But I think it's also like I don't watch a lot of new shows. um
Jamie: I thought that's when this was going to end so differently.
red23: um
Jamie: You just got new shows.
Jen: Yeah.
red23: I don't watch a lot of pornography.
Jen: you
red23: No, I didn't watch what you thought I was going say there. So I'm not exposed... like you know The older shows just don't do it that much. But yeah, sometimes you see you're like, that was totally pointless.
red23: And I think it sometimes it's like it's more like we're known for this or now we're Swedish so we've got a show like our... I don't know. I don't know. But I was like, this... I gotta cut this. This is totally pointless.
red23: Because especially you don't know the characters yet, then like what is the point?
Jen: yeah
red23: I mean, I don't care she's having sex with that guy because i don't know who she is and I don't know who he is.
Jamie: Yeah.
red23: like, I don't...
Jen: i I think, you know, I could never, I'd never make it as an actor for many reasons, but this is one, like, I would never be convinced that there was an artistic requirement to do a sex scene.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: I'd be like, how would it change the the movie or the show if I just refused to do this sex scene?
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: yeah
Jen: Not at all. So I just would never do them.
red23: Well, yes, I think some actors do have a no sex scene or no duty to see flaws.
Jen: Very special.
Jamie: Yeah. Fair enough.
Jen: and Anyway, that's my rant over.
red23: But I think you're 100% right that she did such a great job in that scene because, yeah, really in a very short space of time, he's just climbing through her window.
Jamie: Yeah, that's...
Jamie: Yeah.
red23: She's excited to see him, but there's a lot of emotion there already, like in that short scene.
Jen: I really believe they are a couple and that they're wild about each other you know
red23: Yes, yes.
Jamie: I mean, I think... prompted by that I'm going to skip ahead from one of my points and go from B'Elanna does a fantastic job of making that believable and well acted to I think empathising with the character rather than the actor I feel like saying B'Elanna good for you at the very end making a scene and going for justice even when you might feel that your credibility was was not there and you know i think it's Joel Brel the lead in Arun is is just relentlessly gaslighting you and it looks like the captain isn't going to side with you although she does the moment that there's a moment sort of consider i find myself really impressed by the character as someone who just i find I struggle with
Jamie: even making a point when I don't feel like I have a position of credibility in a room and I just think she does a magnificent job as a character of doing that but also as an actress of I suppose expressing the vulnerability and the challenge in doing so does that make sense?
Jen: Absolutely. And I empathise. I'm the same. i
Jamie: hmm
Jen: i mean, maybe it's an age thing as well, but certainly more as I get older, I think I feel the same in situations where I just I know I'm not going be able articulate well enough.
Jamie: Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And I just say, see I'm not gonna not going to get involved in this. It's not I don't know how
Jamie: yeah
Jen: ah um would. try and get across what was happening to B'Elanna, if it was me, um better than she does in that scene.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Jen: But also, i mean, the fabulous thing about that scene is that, you know, she goes in there and she's she's a little bit like, you know, you could mistake, i mean, we none of us would mistake it, but you could mistake it for so someone, crazy person, you know, who's just, you know, acting crazy, hysterical woman,
Jamie: yeah
Jen: um But all of her all of her crew immediately, despite the f fact she's acting a little bit a little bit over OTT, immediately want to hear her out, which I love.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: Such a Janeway characteristic.
red23: Yes, definitely.
Jamie: That's true. I'm glad.
red23: And she doesn't back down. she i think she finished it.
Jamie: No.
red23: She goes on until she is finished. Like she doesn't like get halfway through and then, which I feel not that I'd be in that situation, but I would, I would, even if I, if I could start, I'd be like, okay, never bye.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: right Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, yeah.
red23: Sorry.
Jen: hey Easily, easily, yeah. Both, yeah.
Jamie: I felt blue. um Red, I think it's it's you, my friend.
red23: Ah, yes. um Oh, man, I wanted to say when, ah back to your point, sorry, Jane, this but I mean, I'll have my own point. But when, actually, no, actually, it's related to my point.
red23: Sorry, well, but I thought there's a bit of a dream oversharing between Bellana and Chakotay. I don't know if you thought this, but when she tells them about
Jen: I
red23: It's the most sensual dreams or the most sensual dreams she's ever had. um And I love talking about dreams with people, but even my colleagues sometimes, but I don't think I would tell them I was having my most sensual dreams ever.
red23: But, uh, so i was like,
Jamie: Can check something? Are we using central as code for sexual here?
red23: no, she said sensual. She did say I'm having, said, oh, kitty.
Jamie: yeah I know, but I feel... What?
red23: I saw kitty and Jenny's background. Sorry.
Jen: Oh, wait, where is... I didn't see Kitty.
red23: I went down your passage. Walk past your door?
Jamie: no
Jen: Oh, I missed her.
red23: Sorry, I can't see a cat and not say kitty.
Jamie: Oh, Kitty.
red23: It's... Oh, kitty!
Jen: There she is, she's back.
Jamie: Oh, she looks tiny in that.
Jen: Oh, she's in an affectionate mood. Oh, sorry, this is very boring for listeners.
Jamie: this So we mean central.
red23: Um... Yes, no, but B'Elanna says to Chakotay, because he's trying to dig into why she keeps oversleeping, and then she's like, I'm having these dreams, and they're more like, you know, they're so intense. And then she does say the most sensual dreams of her life.
red23: So I was like, oh yeah, of course she is.
Jamie: I feel like she's using that as code, but anyway.
red23: I mean, she's not using it as code. She just can't say sexual in the workplace, because that would be really inappropriate, I think.
Jamie: I'm sure I've said the word sexual in the workplace, normally followed by harassment, but anyway.
red23: Yes, but ah so then i was like, oh gosh, this is very, very intimate conversation at work, even though I know they have a very more than work background. I mean, just as in being part of the Marquis and, you know, that kind of thing. But I thought they ended that scene on firmer footing when she was like, if you tell anyone about this, he's like, yes, I know you'll rip my heart out and kill me and everything. And was like, yes, that's back to normal, normal B'Elanna Chakotay. But yeah.
red23: Speaking of the dreams, I did have a little laugh when he wakes her up because she slept through alarm and she's just woken up from that sensual slash sexual dream. And I think she's hugging her her pillow, like her my body.
Jamie: yeah
red23: She's got the body pillow. Come on, which I just thought was quite funny. So that's that.
Jen: Yeah, it's pretty, they're pretty open with each other, aren't they? they do
red23: Yeah.
Jen: I think they, do you know what, I think sensual was the right word though, because yes, it was sexual, but that wouldn't convey all of it, because it was this
red23: and
Jamie: Yeah, no, that that's fair. I'm just being a smutty teenager.
Jen: and teenage boy.
red23: Hugging his body pillow.
Jen: Yeah.
red23: Sorry.
Jamie: Her, Monty Dillow, red, her, but yes.
red23: Oh. Oh.
red23: ah sorry
Jen: yeah I mean yeah like Hugh read I love discussing dreams but I don't think I'd be discussing any dreams of that nature with anyone but well actually I do tell Jamie
Jamie: oh dear
Jamie: yeah i can neither confirm or deny um jenny i think it's over to you
Jen: Oh, what next? Oh yes. ah I mean, it's a bit of a non, and on I don't know, maybe you guys will have some thoughts on this.
Jen: I just found, I really enjoyed this episode. ah I did think it was a bit of a weird progression. Like it started out quite sexual innuendo, sort of quite jokey jokey, um you know, between B'Elanna
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: and Chakotay where she tells them all about it and then basically threatens to kill him, don't you, don't tell anyone.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And then you've got Harry who's hitting off with one of the aliens, I can't remember what they're called.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: um And it's all quite lighthearted and then it ends with like genocide and brainwashing and loads of serious stuff.
Jamie: mr
Jen: um I loved it, but yeah, it was a really strange concoction of themes. Anyone else find that?
red23: That is, yeah, I mean, it is, um, I guess from the minute she's having this intense dream, you know, something's going on, but I, because you said like, oh, that sex scene, I was like, and I was like, what sex scene?
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: So i went back towards the beginning. I was like, oh yes, I'd totally forgotten about the fact that there was that scene where Harry's like, oh, let's all go to dinner.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: Then one lady drops out, then it's him, B'Elanna, and the engineer, um And then Blahn is like, oh no, I'm going rest. Why don't you go without me? And they're like, okay. And then she's like, no, i insist.
Jen: Thank you.
red23: Like, that it why didn't they like try pressure me to join them?
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: since this
red23: But, and it's funny because I had like, oh, I totally forgot that that that there there was this potential setup between Harry and this visiting engineer, um which is often the setup for other types of stories.
Jamie: Hmm, yeah, yeah.
red23: So it was almost a little bit like a, um not a red herring, But like, just not a distraction, but like you're expecting one kind of story. Oh no Harry's going get into some kind of, kind of get himself been into all kinds of trouble with this alien species because he's going do something wrong.
red23: I don't know. But then it actually went in a completely different direction.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Yeah.
red23: So yeah, I mean, I don't think I would have noticed, or realized that without kind of rewatching the beginning, but I was like, oh yeah, it was that set up. And then we never heard about it again. Like, yeah.
Jamie: yeah interesting
Jen: Maybe they were just trying to introduce her because then later on she
red23: Yeah.
Jen: um becomes ah crucial part of the ending but yeah it's a weird way to introduce her with oh she's gonna get together with Harry there's gonna be this whole storyline yeah I know what you mean
Jamie: Well, it's a useful plot device and it lends an innocence to proceedings that, you know, with the rest of everything that's going on of, you know, X-rated TV and B'Elanna's head and, you know, random genocide.
Jamie: The likeness is much appreciated, which I think Harry's innocence brings to it. um i I would like maybe to, ah I mean, i'm I'm tempted between making a point about something that doesn't chime or making another HR focused complaint about one of the crew's performance.
Jamie: which Which would you like me to go for?
Jen: Hey, chop. Hey, chop.
red23: Okay.
Jamie: guess Right, well, then I'm just going to go come straight ahead and say what everyone is thinking. I find Chakotay's tolerance of ah bridge officer's continuous lateness due to having horned dreams outrageous.
Jamie: Multiple times she's late, and we know very well that if that was a man who was Starfleet officer, where it was with Tom Paris, he'd have been Brigadooned in short order.
Jamie: I find this outrageous, sexist, marqueist, and I think it should be stamped out.
red23: okay ae two i have I have to interject here because if this ties in with, sadly, nothing I've ever said before, but what I have been thinking recently is people don't understand equivalence.
red23: I see a lot of social media posts where like, well, this is like this, and why is this like this? And I'm like, those are two different things. Why you trying to make them equivalent? First of all, B'Elanna is never late.
red23: So for her to be late is...
Jamie: She's late three times in this episode.
red23: is very unusual and when she if she's sleeping through her alarm there's very little that she can do if she's not like she's not going out and staying up until 3am it's just something very strange going on tom paris on the other hand has a record of tardiness and being like disobedient and partying all night so they are not the same
Jamie: i I think that's just judging someone on their past behaviour rather than their present behaviour. You realise that I'm coming up with all of these things to annoy people rather than anything that I sincerely think.
red23: that's how people are judged
Jamie: And Balada has laced at least three times in this episode. And I think it's outrageous that once the cause is known as Horn Dreams, it should be tolerated. and find that appalling.
red23: Well, then she explains that she thinks something else is going on and then she has to go to sick bay, And then, um,
Jen: Also she can't control her dreams.
Jamie: Well, doesn't stand as straight there.
Jen: i mean
Jamie: He more sort of hangs around and listens and is like, ooh. But yes, I think that HR will take a dim view of this. And as the HR officer of the podcast, I'm taking a dim view of it. So, no, no, no, no.
Jamie: I do, however, understand the point you were making about false equivalence, which I'm rather gratuitously drawing in the interest of humour as opposed to a sincerely held view. ah
red23: just funny that it tied in with something I've been thinking every day for the last couple of days.
Jamie: oh god
Jen: Too much Twitter Red or...
Jamie: you want do want to share or for sharing off
red23: Huh?
Jamie: want to share or for sharing all
red23: No, no, I wish I could save something, but they'll be like, if these people ought do that, then why can't these people do that? Oh, I'm like, that's just not the same thing.
Jamie: Yeah, I know.
red23: I'm so confused.
Jamie: Oh, I totally get it
Jen: thank
Jamie: I think we should pretend that we're actually talking about that for a few more minutes and then you can just sort of edit it with like blanked out sounds on the podcast.
red23: ah
Jamie: We're having the most explicit chat about, you know, vile goings on ah from various folk who are just being willfully blind and not seeing the reality of life.
red23: Yeah, it's just, I feel like everyone, I mean, it's all sides of all all things and something probably not even that important.
Jamie: However...
red23: It's just me being like, why you trying to say those things with the same? Maybe I'm wrong though, so who knows. yeah
Jamie: Everything, everywhere, all the time.
red23: But Jenny jaie was right that, Jenny was right, Valana can't help her dreams. And in this case, she really can't because someone is like telepathically significant to her.
Jamie: And what what can I say?
Jen: I really thought you were gonna say...
Jamie: The telepathic staff aren't making that clear doing their job for a job. Sorry, Jenny, your hand has leapt up.
Jen: i really thought you gonna say, Red, Jenny's right. Too much Twitter.
Jamie: and Too much what?
Jen: that Jenny was right. Too much to Twitter. I'm reading too much Twitter. Or what's it called?
red23: yes that that's x that's x now to be fair yes i think ah i'm going to take a break because this equivalence is like i can't read this it's too i guess it's to maybe i just keep thinking it's dumb but maybe it's more dishonest so yeah no what was
Jen: It's called X now. thanks
Jamie: All right.
Jamie: I probably is willfully dishonest. Does someone say just asking questions by any chance? OK, because that's often a giveaway.
Jen: Do you know what they do say though, Jamie?
Jamie: Red. Sorry?
Jen: That you have said on this podcast earlier, you say, blah, blah, prove me wrong.
Jamie: sorry
Jen: and i was like, oh no, that is such a social media post.
red23: Oh,
Jen: but It's quite a right wing social media posting.
red23: um
Jamie: Well, i mean i I mean, I deleted my account years ago, actually.
red23: a
Jen: Too much Twitter for you i
Jen: two.
Jamie: About the time it was becoming X, weirdly.
Jen: I was going to prescribe you both like, like,
Jamie: um No, but anyway, I hear what you're saying.
Jen: Great from social media. Ooh.
Jamie: um
red23: Actually, I am, well, I mean, I think I'm just going off a bit, reading all people's stupid thoughts, but some, I mean, I do like the ill historian and the, ah you know, the lady who talks about medieval medieval um seasons and the lady who does her walks in the Lake District, but yes, I think it's ruining my eyes, so I've got some books from the library, Anthony Horowitz.
Jamie: i
Jamie: Yeah. I also really like Suzy Dent on it, but anyway.
Jen: o
red23: Oh yeah, Susie Dent, more of my Swedish crime, Hakannessa.
Jen: Do you know what comes out in one week?
Jamie: on
Jen: Which, read ah you might not be as excited because I know you read one and you're like, eh, medium. But um the new Miles Cameron, Whale Song.
Jamie: What?!
red23: Oh yes, yeah, okay.
Jen: I'm very excited about this, very excited.
Jamie: Noted. I think it's one of the best novels I've ever read, Fight Me.
red23: Yeah, that is exciting.
Jamie: Just to throw in another catchphrase of stuff, you know, prove me wrong.
Jen: Right, no.
red23: I guess that's like, guess not right wing, it's right literature? I don't know, what does that prove me wrong?
Jamie: I think I can't talk to you.
Jen: yeah
red23: is the best novel, prove me wrong.
red23: um Yeah, so i think... Whose point was it? Was I talking? I can't remember.
Jamie: It's to you. It's to you, Red. We've been talking about my HR complaints that are false equivalents to be annoying.
red23: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
Jamie: Let's go with you, Chief.
red23: Well, ah okay, maybe this is too much sex for one podcast, but... As soon as I...
Jamie: Is there
red23: As soon as I missed the initial kind of, you know, the music instrument scene. I thought they were putting the telepathy telepathy to good use in that scene between, wish I could know these characters' names, the young woman and the young man when they meet like in secret.
red23: when she i guess it's B'Elanna's memory. um There's just been some announcement in the square and they're like, we're going to fight for our race or I don't know. And then she runs into her lover um and he's like, oh, come see me tonight. She's like, oh, I can't. I've got dinner with my dad or whatever.
red23: And then she's like, well, what would you do? i came and he's like, let me show you. And then he puts a hand on my back to do the telepathy. And I was like, good use of telepathy, but I wouldn't say, I don't know, putting it to good use.
Jen: Yeah, I was expecting a dirty talk scene, but no.
red23: But, yes.
Jen: it's
Jamie: Yeah!
Jen: I mean, that is a great way star Trek Get Out Claws as well, you know, like pre-Watershed wave.
red23: Yes, exactly. Yes, very family friendly.
Jen: to
Jamie: I don't know.
red23: ah Like they can just, they don't have to
Jamie: I'm going to look at it.
red23: I'm just gonna sound pretty biblical. Defile themselves with words they can just share thoughts.
Jamie: with words.
Jamie: Red... Reddy Roo.
Jen: Jamie's blushing red.
Jamie: I don't know what, that's just, I think the word defile is like really...
Jen: it
Jamie: I don't know what I dislike about it, but ew.
red23: It's pretty scary.
Jen: I don't know why it just always that word it always springs to mind like not biblical things but the scene in Harry Potter where you know Rowena Ravenclaw of the grey ghost of Ravenclaw Tower is talking about the
Jamie: Oh, I know the one, I know the one, wait.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: what was it like the tiara relic thing that he defiled it with dark magic.
Jamie: Yeah, he defiled it about the tier I've been made into a Horcrux.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: Oh dear.
Jen: Anyway, tangent.
Jamie: That makes me smile.
red23: No, another Harry Potter tangent. No problem.
Jamie: Um, Tony, I think.
red23: I really need to catch up.
Jamie: I think you're next in the...
Jen: Over to me. Oh, is red still there?
red23: Yes.
Jen: Oh yes you are.
Jamie: Yeah.
red23: Yeah.
Jen: um my goodness, you were sitting so still red, I thought you'd frozen.
Jamie: Anyway. I actually actually thought she had as well.
Jen: um My next point. my last one.
red23: Yes. Oh, has Jenny frozen?
Jamie: Rowena Ravenclaw.
red23: Oh, maybe I have frozen.
Jen: So I just had a point about the ending that I love it, I love the ending.
red23: Oh,
Jen: I just think it's just really well done.
red23: what is going on? I've got your internet.
Jen: Leaves it open, you know there's room for hope, it's resolved but you're still left wondering a little bit, kind of but left wanting more but
Jamie: Oh
Jamie: no, oh no.
Jen: but does feel kind of... oh oh I think we lost red! oh no!
Jamie: ah no this This is happening a lot in our podcasts. Either Red's computer or Red herself are becoming so disgusted with what we say she dives off.
Jamie: But hopefully it continues recording.
Jen: oh dear do you have any comments?
red23: Oh dear.
Jamie: Quick, let's say some mean stuff.
red23: Oh dear.
Jen: do you have any any comments on my comments Jamie while we wait for it?
Jamie: Well, no, I agree. I really did love the ending. um I love the fact there is ah pathway through sharing of the secrets. I love the fact it isn't sort of Star Trek's saviour complex of a Starfleet crew riding in roughshod to save the galaxy. I really like that.
Jamie: I like the sort of the reverse telepathy and the concept of I know your memory, I know that it's true, that something happens and it feels like just by something being communicated and believed, that feels like breakthrough.
red23: um Hello? No, you're not back.
red23: Not back.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: yeah does.
Jamie: um Yeah, I agree with you I absolutely love it. um And especially ah ah such a contrast from, and this is my last point, the gaslighting from the head and iron throughout the entire episode of, well, maybe it's your cultural difference, or maybe it's an aggregation of memories, maybe it's this or that.
Jamie: um And constantly trying to throw doubt. It feels such a pure moment, I suppose.
Jen: It's especially the, I think one of the suggestions, or at least B'Elanna asks, are you suggesting that it's all in my head? but I imagine it true gaslighting going on.
Jamie: yeah yeah yeah well yeah and from a position of absolute strength and superiority by a telepath an actual telepath who knows what might be going on um yeah
Jen: Oh, I think I can see Red's name.
Jen: Might be coming back.
Jen: ah
red23: Oh my god, wow.
Jamie: ah.
Jen: She's back!
Jamie: Wow.
red23: I'm on my phone, I don't know what's going on.
Jamie: You made it!
Jen: Oh no.
Jamie: Oh, unbelievable. I mean, I'm impressed that your phone Wi-Fi can maintain this connection.
Jen: We managed to keep it.
red23: Yes, maybe I should try cut off some.
Jamie: Oh, no.
Jen: Oh.
Jamie: I turned it to... Ah, there you yeah I was just saying I'm impressed your phone Wi-Fi can maintain this connection and then it didn't.
red23: Am I not still here? I hope I'm still here. I'm trying to close.
Jamie: You are, yes.
Jen: you You're back, you're back.
red23: Okay. I don't know who who knows what was being recorded, not recorded. So I will have to edit. because
Jen: Well, we managed to keep the chat going.
Jamie: um
Jen: So if we keep going now,
Jamie: Yeah, we we we did a whole podcast conversation, like including gaslighting from head and arms and
red23: Okay, maybe then. Great. Let's
Jamie: contrast between that and the purity of the last scene with the inaran who sees balana's memory and believes her it was um we were saying it was a very pure moment and we liked it for that i said um what did you think red where where are you and and indeed mine where where are you red
Jen: That was my last point.
red23: Okay, well, I have, let's say, maybe two things that I'll save for the themes.
Jamie: hmm hmm oh
red23: But i thought there were two very good lines, or funny, some funny lines, interesting lines. But the doctor, Tupulana, who's like, I don't want to suppress the dreams. I want, you know, out of curiosity, I want know what happens to this person, because he's like, oh if you take, you know, put this cortical thing on or something.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
red23: Um, ah you know we can suppress your dream dreams and then he's like after she's like no i don't want to do that he was like i don't think satisfying your curiosity is worth risking brain damage which i think is his understated humor which i loved and then um later on i can't remember exactly one when but tuba predicts exactly oh yes that jane will continue um the investigation into this kind of potential crimes of this race and then she says to him I wonder how long it's been since I did anything that surprised you, which is again, just another little line about their friendship, which I really liked.
Jen: Oh yeah.
red23: And I can see Jamie's hand is raised in the digital way. So you want to.
Jamie: I just wanted to say that I really, really loved that moment with the captain and Tuvok as well. I absolutely loved it and yeah, totally get where you're at at And I also wanted to say, I never realised on this we could raise hands.
red23: Yeah.
Jen: It's... it...
Jamie: I just found this ability. I'm going to annoy people so badly with it.
Jen: oh
Jamie: But yeah, it was an absolutely wonderful moment.
red23: Yeah, I really liked it.
Jamie: Yeah, probably the one where I most felt a sense of crew camaraderie. though I don't know, the relationship between the crewmates rang a bit false for me this one. like I can't imagine Harry Kim just ditching B'Elanna the way that he does at the start when she says, oh no, um we insist, thanks for asking.
Jamie: I just can't imagine that. That's not Harry.
Jen: who
Jamie: No, Harry's way nicer than Tom Paris maybe, but not Harry.
Jen: I absolutely found that in keeping with his character. no, no. When Harry you gets smitten with someone, he's like in Harry dream world and that is so in keeping.
Jamie: He's still decent.
Jen: What do you think, Red?
Jamie: I don't know.
red23: ah
Jen: The sliding rope?
red23: I'm leaning... i leaning towards Jenny's take, yes. Like, yes. Was he a good crewmate for doing that? Not really.
red23: Is it very Harry? Yes.
Jamie: i so I don't know I'm not sure I agree with that I felt a lot of the captain's behaviour was very out of place this one as well with the whole you know allowing herself to be touched without consent and then mentally telepathed without ah consent as Jobrell puts it but yeah anyway I think that was one line what was the other one that
red23: I think I already gave it the one, the doctor, that the doctor, you know, don't risk brain damage, just to satisfy your curiosity, basically.
Jamie: oh yeah
Jamie: So i I have a question.
Jen: That's very good point.
red23: Seems like good advice.
Jamie: Does the Doctor have the right to ban people doing things for their health as the ship's Doctor, or does he only get to advise?
Jen: I think he did advise. think it was like a question.
red23: Yeah.
Jamie: no, I know that he can advise, but i wonder if he can ban? Because, like, I would surely ban someone from doing something that gives them brain damage, no?
red23: Yes, because he can even take a command away from the doctor if he thinks her health is impaired enough.
Jamie: Yeah.
red23: one
Jamie: Yeah.
red23: But you can't control other people do.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: I think it's, yeah, I think it's about how, whether they're mentally capable of making the decision.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: So like if someone, you know, it's like DNRs, if someone refuses resuscitation and that's, you know, a legitimate choice for them due to their religion or whatever, i think it's that kind of situation with doctrine as well.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: But if they are, you know, compromised, some alien has invaded their brain and made them mad, ah I think he's allowed to step in. That's my understanding of it anyway.
red23: Yeah, he's, I mean, on a much more lesser severe example, I think he's allowed to command someone to take Sigleev, like even a captain, like if he thinks it's in there. I feel like we've seen that in some episodes, or he was threatened.
Jen: Yeah, that rings a bell.
red23: Like if, if you're not, if you you're so stressed, you need to take a break and Jamie's like, no, he's like, I can force you basically. So, um,
Jen: Did you know what? That a really good point because that does break that code. because he's forcing treatment on someone. Yes, it's just to take some holiday, but still the principle is the same, isn't it? So that is a weird one.
red23: i think Well he does also have to be looking out for the health of the crew and the safety of the whole crew. Like if you have someone in charge who's not...
red23: you know, I don't know.
Jamie: Yeah, empowered.
Jen: Hmm.
Jamie: maybe Maybe Dr Powers needs to be a theme on this.
red23: Dr. Powers. Dr.
Jamie: Yes.
Jen: Hmm.
red23: Leham.
Jamie: Powers of a doctor. Not a doctor called powers, but like powers that doctors have.
red23: I was like Austin Powers? Okay, okay. Oh yeah, sorry.
Jamie: Anyway.
red23: I think as soon as so you guys, I think you don't have any more points. I will just wrap up. Actually, ah i can wrap up. My final point is Volana got that suppressor or whatever, that cortical suppressor.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: And then there's a scene where she's like, no, I don't want to use this. I want to like go back into this dream world and find out the story.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: It reminded me a little bit of when i I was going through a phase of having like, written I mean, years when I say phase. sorry to bring up dreams, having these really intense dreams.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: And accidentally discovered that taking magnesium will like, I don't, I either don't remember them or I don't have them.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Oh, wow.
red23: And so like I would religiously take magnesium. like Even if I forgot to take it, I would get out of bed to take it, which is really not like me.
Jamie: Hmm, interesting. Hmm.
red23: I mean, if I need to pee, I would get out of bed. So it was a big deal for me to get out of bed to take it.
Jen: yeah
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: okay
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: And the scene where she like rips this cortical or suppressor kind of reminds me im like every now and again, and i was like, oh, screw it. I'm just going to go to sleep with up my magnesium and have the dreams and suffer the consequences.
Jamie: yeah yeah
red23: um But ah yes, 99% of the time I would not choose the dreams.
Jen: I am so fascinated fascinated by this magnesium situation because I occasionally have a week, the old week, where
red23: But anyway.
Jen: I will just have stress stream every single night and it is so tiring and so unpleasant and then it will be fine again for like a month.
red23: Oh, that is so tiring.
Jen: um But I can tell when it's coming and it would be really nice to be able to do something. good I have noticed one thing has been really helping because it it's just lately it seems to have gotten worse.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: It's probably just going to work stress but um this is so obvious it's quite embarrassing but I literally just cut out reading anything negative.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: ah
Jen: So like
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: ah yeah
Jen: I stopped reading the news for a week. um No like negative forum chat. I didn't watch any gritty stuff. No Netflix, nothing like that. only Well, I watched the sort of lighthearted comedy stuff, you know so just really lighthearted stuff like Friends or Big Bang Theory or you know just really fluffy.
red23: yeah wow
Jen: And yeah, they just stopped. So yeah. a Maybe I don't need the magnesium.
red23: Yeah, I mean, I don't...
Jen: but I'm gonna remember that.
red23: i would I would give it a try. I accidentally discovered this when I was actually putting on, like, a magnesium oil on, like, a torn hamstring because someone said, oh, like, magnesium oil might help that.
Jamie: wow. Oh, how'd you tear your hamstring?
red23: Oh, it's many... It's a long time ago and I was by stepping off a pavement, strangely, so don't know what that says about my hamstrings, but...
Jamie: Whoa.
Jamie: Oh.
red23: um And then i was like... So it took... And now I just take it... And now there's all this research about how more it's become more and well-known, I guess, how it can help with sleep and stuff, but I was a fan for a long time, but...
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: My dreams are, it's always the same kind of dream. i don't know if your stress dreams are the same, but I'm traveling, I'm packing, I've gone back to university.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: I forgot I left stuff at university. Now i'm trying to pack it all up, but I'm going miss the plane.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: I can't find my ticket like that. So it's always the same thing. But I did notice that I can't, I should not listen to a true crime podcast as I'm falling asleep because one night I did dream about like violent murder something.
red23: I don't know. i don't remember the details. was like, ah okay, no, that's a new kind of dream. And that's directly linked to what I was listening to as I fell asleep.
Jen: That's related, yeah. Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah.
red23: So,
Jen: No, that's what triggered me to try it as well, because but mine are always different, like wildly different about all kinds of different stuff.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: Okay. Yeah.
Jen: But it's more, some of them as well, I would describe them to you and they wouldn't seem stressful at all. It's more about that they feel stressful, you know, when you wake up and you think, well, the content of that was not stressful.
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
red23: Yeah.
Jen: Anyway, anyway um but yeah, the the similar thing happened. It was one morning when I woke up and I thought, you know what, that was, that dream was, well, it's really a nightmare, I guess, but like stress dream. that was directly related to what I'd been reading or watching before I went to bed and so I thought I'm going to just try a little experiment here and it worked!
red23: Yes. Yes.
Jamie: hmm no
red23: Yeah, nice. Glad works.
Jen: Any... sorry, deviating slightly there.
Jamie: no no gosh I mean these sorts of side discussions what make this the podcast our fans know and love um and indeed I love being part of right themes hit me
Jen: I've got loads of themes sex, gaslighting, genocide and also Denial which reminded me of the film Denial which is a great film if you haven't seen it um
Jamie: What's that?
Jamie: ah wow, what's it about?
Jen: it. Oh gosh. So i I can't remember it well enough I just remember that it was fantastic and it had Rachel Weisz in it.
red23: Ah, okay.
Jen: um It was I think it was basically like she's Jewish and
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: she's taking legal action against someone who is denying the Holocaust ever happened.
Jamie: Oh gosh. Oh yeah, is it is it a British historian who's denying the Holocaust?
Jen: think so. I feel like I don't remember enough to, like, I feel like there's more complexity to it than that, but that's the basics that i remember.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm. Fair enough.
Jen: I just remember that it was absolutely, i was absolutely gripped.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: And it it you know how some films just stick in your memory? Obviously, like the content hasn't stuck in my memory very well, but you know, the feeling of having watched them sticks in your memory.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: Is it a good courtroom drama from the 90s or is it more recent than that?
Jen: That was one of those.
Jen: Ooh, I didn't do that either.
Jamie: I think...
Jen: I'm sorry, I knew very little about this considering I watched it.
red23: I'll look it up. don't know, I'll look it up.
Jamie: No, I can't. it was actually in 2016,
Jen: I just think she was really good in it.
Jamie: that movie.
red23: I saw her in a streetcar named Isaiah in London.
Jen: Hmm.
red23: Yeah, yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. so it was actually in twenty sixteen
red23: Oh, yeah, so i'm more recent form.
Jamie: um ah movie i yeah
red23: I'm gonna look it up.
Jamie: Absolutely. i recommend it. She is a fantastic actress. um Right. Red, any themes yourself?
red23: Yeah, I mean, i think Jenny's also kind of touched on these, but don't know say this.
red23: But it was an interesting example, an exploration of, I guess, brainwashing, being brainwashed by your
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: loved ones in a sense, because um it's very, I think it's very hard to fight against that when you're young.
Jamie: Yeah, yeah.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
red23: But I was pretty shocked.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: I've got to say when she, so she is torn between these two worlds, the regressives, that what they called them?
Jamie: Hmm. Yeah, progressives and regressives.
red23: and Yeah, and then the kind of, let's say, mainstream society.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: ah So she was aware of this other society, and she had a lover from this other and element of society, and um just one...
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: kind of very manipulated conversation from her dad and she gave him up and he is executed.
Jamie: Yeah.
red23: So i was pretty shocked that she, but I guess that's, that's obviously, it was just like pretty shocking, but how difficult it is to believe bad things about people that you love or to, that we just accept what they say is the truth basically.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: And it's, and I'm not saying she should have, I'm just saying she should have had evidence before she made a decision and instead of just listening to what people say, even if they are.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Difficult in the moment, but yeah, I know what you mean.
red23: She didn't have to give up that guy.
Jamie: Yeah.
red23: She could have remembered that she knows him and that she spent time with him. um Yeah, but tough.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, it's quite a jump, isn't it? Like, my thoughts on it we were also just, it's interesting that they chose, I mean, obviously they want a little bit to make it a dramatic episode, but also the fact that rather than just, okay, Dad, I agree with you, fine, but
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: Yes, yes.
Jen: still don't, you could still just not let her dad know that he's hiding, you know, let let him out.
Jamie: Yeah, you could just lie him and get Dathan out of trouble.
Jen: And you know, then you kind of, um you know, he he gets his freedom, but you're not, you know, getting wrong side your dad.
red23: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: So the fact that she specifically decided to give him up, as you say, for execution is, I wonder if it was some kind of, um the story was trying to say something about in order for her to believe
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: that her family her family
Jamie: Hmm. They were killed. Yeah.
Jen: um don't wouldn't commit murder and wouldn't commit genocide and be involved in something so horrible. She has to convince herself entirely the other way.
Jen: And that means going to the extreme and giving him up.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: um
Jamie: Yeah.
red23: Yes, because, I mean, ah you that is a good point, because I was like, surely guy being executed is proving his own point, because he didn't do anything wrong.
Jen: I wondered if it was something like that.
red23: He was just, was he executed for being in her house?
Jamie: Yeah.
red23: I mean, that's not a crime, I presume. So ah and if that doesn't convince her that something is not quite right, then yeah, but maybe she didn't, yeah, like as you were saying, maybe subconsciously
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: And also, I guess, from a story perspective, as we're discussing this, it gives more weight to the ah character's motivation why she would share this experience, perhaps, with Brianna.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
red23: You know, like, she's carrying this real guilt all her life, I think, that she's suppressed and now needs to unload, I would maybe.
Jen: yeah
Jamie: Fair play. Star players, people.
Jen: Yes I choose, well not B'Elanna the actress this time round. I should really learn her name shouldn't it, Roxanne isn't it?
red23: Yes, well done.
Jamie: Roxanne Dawson.
red23: Sorry, Jamie, what?
Jen: Roxanne.
Jamie: Roxanne Dawson.
red23: Oh, yes, of course. Thank you.
Jen: Dawson, okay.
red23: I mean, the fact that I don't know these things.
Jen: I'll try and remember the surname.
Jamie: Oh! I mean, I'm outraged. if You're supposed to be the ex- I'm just the person who doesn't watch Star Trek, and even I know that.
red23: I do know these things.
red23: The thing is, I do know these things when I'm like, when I'm listening to Star Trek podcast during lockdown, I knew every tiny little thing, but then the minute my brain doesn't need that anymore, just like, let's go. I have to reload it all over again.
Jen: you
Jamie: bless.
red23: Hmm.
Jamie: So.
Jen: Yeah, I just thought she's a fantastic actress and I think this was a prime example of her talent.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: Mmm.
Jamie: Yep.
red23: I think I'm going to pick, um,
red23: uh, this is a bit, David, the guest actor, because I'm sure he's a very good actor and he was a very good actor.
Jen: Mmm.
Jamie: Oh.
red23: And I thought he did like a very good job in this, uh, role and selling that whole, you know, and love affair.
Jamie: Yeah.
red23: But I only know him from improv on whose line it is it anyway? So to see him in this was really great.
Jamie: Aww. Aww.
red23: Like, yeah. So I think I'll pick him as my star player.
Jamie: Awesome. Fair play. I'm going continue a long theme of myself lightening the tone and also picking inanimate objects and say that in an episode full of action, this object was getting a lot of action.
Jamie: I'm going to pick that musical instrument.
Jen: you
red23: ah The easiest musical...
Jamie: Keyplot device and person having the most fun out there.
red23: I was just about to say the easiest musical instrument to play, and I guess that does tie back to...
Jamie: And easy in more than one way.
red23: Yes. Tie back to the phallic symbolism that Jenny picked up earlier on.
Jamie: yeah
red23: Oh.
Jamie: Absolutely. Absolutely.
red23: ah
Jamie: I think that might be us. I don't know.
red23: Yes, I think so. i guess. um
Jamie: it music cue the music. Salutes.
red23: So it's I don't know what episode we're doing next. I can quickly look it up.
red23: It's gonna take me a little while now because it's not the right.
Jamie: Salutes down.
red23: See you next time. want to know what episode you watching next. Oh yes, sacred ground.
Jamie: No shit.
Jen: the jingle, Red?
red23: See next week and don't hang up because I've got an amber, amber glowing next to me.
Jen: Where's the jingle?
Jamie: Yeah. Also, do we have a jingle? Because I haven't heard the jingle. And I was saluting for it.
red23: Oh, I played it Maybe you didn't hear it because of I'm on amber.
Jen: Ooh.
red23: Okay, I'm going to, yeah.
Jen: oh
