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A Gospel-Centered View of LGBTQ Identity with Adam Westlake
221 Plays1 year ago
In this deeply personal and redemptive conversation, Ken Freire sits down with Adam Westlake, a biblical counselor, to explore a Gospel-centered approach to same-sex attraction (SSA) and LGBTQ identity.
Adam vulnerably shares his own story of growing up in West Texas, wrestling with his identity, and finding true healing through Christ, community, and biblical counseling.
Whether you’re in Nashville, TN, or anywhere in the world, this episode offers powerful encouragement and practical steps for those struggling with sexual sin, identity confusion, or shame.
📌 Key Topics Covered:
- Adam’s journey from hiding same-sex attraction to walking in the light
- The difference between experience and identity
- How shame and silence grow without Gospel-centered community
- Why sexuality is often a search for connection, validation, or healing
- How Jesus satisfies our deepest longings as the Bread of Life
- The role of the church in counseling and loving those with SSA
- Common lies people believe when struggling with sexual identity
- Reframing disordered desires through God's redemptive story
💡 Practical Takeaways:
- Name the struggle: Bring your sin or confusion into the light with someone trustworthy.
- Seek connection: Shame dies in community; isolation only feeds the struggle.
- Confess early: Don’t wait until you fall—share what’s going on before the sin.
- Feed on Christ: Only Jesus can truly satisfy the deep spiritual hunger in all of us.
- You’re not alone: Many believers silently wrestle with SSA—freedom begins with honesty.
Powerful Quotes:
“I had to learn that I wasn’t that different… and that was actually a really good thing.” – Adam Westlake“We don’t need less hunger. We need the right Bread.” – Adam Westlake
“It’s not about subtracting sin, it’s about living with purpose and mission.” – Ken Freire
Guest Bio:
Adam Westlake is a biblical counselor, worship leader, and producer who spent over a decade creating music with The Worship Initiative alongside Shane & Shane. Based in Texas, Adam now counsels individuals through his ministry, helping them reframe personal struggles through the lens of God’s larger redemptive story.
Connect with Adam Westlake:
- adamwestlakecounseling.com
- Instagram: @adamwestlake
Join the Mission:
Love this episode? Share it with a friend who’s struggling with shame, addiction, or confusion around their identity.
Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review—it helps more people discover the Gospel truth that shame doesn’t have the final word.
Recommended
Transcript
A Gospel-Centered View of LGBTQ Identity
00:00:30
Ken Freire
Welcome back to another fantastic episode where today's topic, I believe, is a sensitive topic, but it's also going to be a very redemptive conversation because today we're going to talk about a Gospered Centered View of LGBTQ identity.
Introduction to Adam Westlake
00:00:46
Ken Freire
And the person I have with me to talk to us about it is Adam Westlake. He is a counselor and he has his own counseling ministry, but his focus on reframing personal struggles within God's larger redemptive story. And on his either full-time or side hustle, Adam, you'll tell me, ah you you are a musician, you are a musician, producer, you do all those things all day, every day. ah But I'm excited to have you here today. Welcome, Adam.
00:01:14
Adam Westlake
Thanks for having
From Music to Counseling
00:01:15
Adam Westlake
me, Ken. I'm glad to be here.
00:01:16
Ken Freire
Yeah, Adam, you know, before we get into this, I know I mentioned that you were a musician producer. ah Tell me a little bit of of your music musical background and what you've done.
00:01:25
Adam Westlake
Yeah, i I tell folks from before the time I could actually speak English as a little, little one. i was humming along the songs, match and pitch. So it was just kind of obvious from an early point in my life that music was gonna be a part of what I do, ah either for fun or what turned into occupationally. And so that looked like piano lessons, that looked like playing the bassoon in middle school and high school. At some point I picked up a guitar and over my young adult life and and now on into my thirties, it's become what I do primarily for work is ah produce music, travel and play guitar, um primarily in the kind of Christian music
00:02:04
Adam Westlake
space. And so I just kind of write songs and make songs and spend some time at an organization called the Worship Initiative over the past decade or so with Shane and Shane making songs and resources for worship ministers and worship teams and to create some things to help them as they lead their congregation. So that's that's what I've been doing. And over the last maybe half a decade, I've waited more and more into the council in space. and So that's kind of what
Adam's Upbringing and Personal Struggles
00:02:28
Adam Westlake
brings us to today.
00:02:29
Ken Freire
I love it, man. You know, funny story. I was just in a conversation with one of my coworkers and they were talking about creating a hobby and they're like, oh, maybe someone should start the mandolin.
00:02:40
Ken Freire
Well, I started taking mandolin lessons and no joke. I had no idea what it was. I'm Googling it because I was like, oh, did you mean to say like, learn Mandarin, like the Chinese language? Like, like I had no idea.
00:02:52
Adam Westlake
You're like, I didn't even know that was a thing.
00:02:52
Ken Freire
So they're just... I didn't know the thing. And when they saw it, I'm like, oh, it's a type of guitar. you know like So I'm sure you would have known exactly what it is as soon as I said it.
00:02:59
Adam Westlake
It's amazing.
00:03:01
Ken Freire
so
00:03:02
Adam Westlake
I would have known.
00:03:02
Ken Freire
ah I thought you would have gotten a kick out of that. Okay, so Adam, you've been doing that now over the last five years. You've kind of been weighing into this counseling thing. I know you and I talked a little bit and you started doing it within your church as a ministry, something that you did for yourself. And then you started to really plug in and start to work there. But give us a little backstory of yourself and what made you decide to like get into this world of counseling.
00:03:29
Adam Westlake
Yeah, I grew up in church in West Texas. I tell people picture an episode of Friday Night Lights and then plop a little 14 year old sensitive me into an episode of that. And you'll get a little bit of an understanding of what my upbringing was. My high school literally plays the team that Friday Night Lights is based off of. ah And so I grew up as a pretty artistic sensitive kid in West Texas, which was pretty challenging. um Grew up in church as well, kids choir, music, youth band, worship band on Sundays.
00:03:59
Adam Westlake
um And just got kind of left and by that I mean I think my parents assumed that the church was discipling me I think the church assumed that my parents were discipling me and so I spent a lot of time in and around church but with very little formation or discipleship and it wasn't until I got to college and really kind of came to the end of my ability to manage some of my struggles on my own, that in kind of an act of desperation, I reached out to a pastor who connected me to another guy in our church that led me into a recovery ministry at our church. Then I ended up interning in that recovery ministry some years later. That's what connected me into the kind of Christian counseling, biblical counseling world that led to seminary.
00:04:43
Adam Westlake
So just kind of my own story of really struggling to to map the truth of scripture that I was reading meaningfully onto kind of the challenges of my day-to-day life. and Once I kind of learned that that was possible, ah I was just kind of all in first just to experience it for myself, but then over time gaining some skills and some some wisdom to hopefully begin to be able to do that for others.
00:05:10
Ken Freire
Yeah. Dude, I cannot tell you how many times I've talked to people. And it's my so story too, right? Where like, I've bought so much into counseling and coaching because of how much it changed my life.
00:05:21
Ken Freire
And I was like, wow, I want to do this to others.
00:05:22
Adam Westlake
Right.
00:05:23
Ken Freire
But i want I want to take a step back in your story. And you talked about like these struggles that you faced and particularly sexual identity.
00:05:27
Adam Westlake
Yeah.
00:05:30
Ken Freire
Can you take us a little bit deeper of like, how did that manifest
Facing Same-Sex Attraction and Seeking Help
00:05:34
Ken Freire
for you? And how did you live life with that sin or struggle?
00:05:35
Adam Westlake
Yeah. Uh, poorly. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I really probably early adolescence, like pre-teen years, started to kind of notice, uh-oh, I'm finding myself drawn to ah guys that I'm around in a way that seems different than just I want to be friends with them.
00:06:02
Adam Westlake
It's not just I want them to like me, but I want to be liked by them, you know, in maybe ah a deeper kind of way.
00:06:09
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:06:10
Adam Westlake
um And I didn't really know what to do with it, frankly. I just knew that i it was bad. from culture, from what I heard on TV, from things that I would hear people say. And so it pretty quickly, when I when i discovered this was something that I was dealing with, it sent me pretty underground. I just kind of perceived this isn't something either at church or at home that would be a really good idea for me to bring up. um And so that just kind of began this secret of I experienced same-sex attraction and I don't really know
00:06:48
Adam Westlake
what to do with it. um In the the Lord's mercy, that's never really moved beyond, um like ands it's never really moved into like a ah relationship with another man or another guy, um but has it just looked like really personal temptation and lust over a significant portion of my life.
00:07:13
Ken Freire
Yeah. What was the the turning point of you being like, oh my gosh, this is an issue and I need to deal with it.
00:07:23
Adam Westlake
Yeah, I think I got to college and if for anybody that struggles with really any kind of compulsive behavior, but there's there's all these like ultimatums you make with yourself along the way and there's all these like arbitrary like road marks or mile markers that goes oh well.
00:07:32
Ken Freire
Oh yeah.
00:07:40
Adam Westlake
once I start college or once I move into my new house or once I whatever, I'll stop then or i then I'll make sure from there. like there So i I had told myself one of those moving into college and I kind of worked for like two or three months and then it stopped working. I think I acted out looking at pornography and it was just one of those like the the the floor fell out and I just and just kind of gave up.
00:08:09
Adam Westlake
I called a friend. I was just in full blown, like midnight crying. My roommate was gone for the semester because it was a ground Christmas break. And I had like one friend that I called and he just came and sat with me for a couple of hours. And then that next Sunday, I went up to one of the pastors at my church and was just like, I need some help. And so there was just this sort of, I came to my senses or came to the end of myself and was just like, well, I guess we have to,
00:08:39
Adam Westlake
figure this out in a more significant way now.
00:08:41
Ken Freire
Yeah. What was... that So, like, you decided to go talk to someone then, right? Where you're like, I need help now. But then you had all these years previously where you were trying to hide underground, right? What were like the the the lies or the excuses that you were telling yourself of, like, why didn't you come and get help sooner?
00:09:06
Adam Westlake
I think two things. One, the fear of the proverbial hammer falling. And so I think the fear of judgment was one.
00:09:11
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:09:16
Adam Westlake
A second thing would be, the the and I think accurately, ah my perception that the people around me didn't really have the skill necessary to help me navigate this.
00:09:33
Adam Westlake
um And then three, my own thought of, I bet I could figure this out. So I think the fear of judgment kept me silent.
00:09:43
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:09:45
Adam Westlake
I think the ineptitude of other people to know how to meaningfully help. And then three, ah this this really deep-seated, and I think this is in all people ah living east of Eden, but just this, I bet I can figure this out on my own.
Identity and Community in Christ
00:10:04
Ken Freire
Yeah, I mean I see that all the time with people like that. I talked to even if it's not a Sin or struggle. They're like, oh I could figure this out, right? They're like, I don't need YouTube like I'll do I'll figure it out on my own It's like no, why don't you get help?
00:10:15
Adam Westlake
Yeah.
00:10:15
Ken Freire
They're like nah, I got this, right?
00:10:18
Adam Westlake
Yeah.
00:10:18
Ken Freire
um but I want to talk about the Ineptitude one right for a second because I think this one is really interesting you had this perception and I you know think about 20 years ago right 15 years ago there wasn't a lot of counselors and Christians talking about like, how do you help people in this situation?
00:10:35
Ken Freire
It was, it was for lack of a better word, very shameful to even come out and he'd be like, I struggle with this.
00:10:39
Adam Westlake
Yeah.
00:10:41
Ken Freire
How did you, in your mind, navigate those conversations when you're with people and you were struggling? And ah specifically, I'm thinking like those moments when you know you want to confess, but like, you're like, no, no, no, I know they're not going to be able to help me.
00:10:56
Adam Westlake
Yeah, I frankly didn't have any conversations. I think my parents because ah found pornography in our internet history, talked to me about it once or twice.
00:11:08
Adam Westlake
And then I really didn't talk about it to anybody else for the du until I moved away and went to college. And so I think there was a lot of just silence.
00:11:19
Adam Westlake
there was a lot of
00:11:21
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:11:22
Adam Westlake
it's not really a part of the conversation. Or if it is, it's lust in a general category. um Or it's talking to guys about how to not lust after girls. And in all of those, there was just always this asterisk next to whatever was getting talked about. And it was, yeah, but that's not quite for me because. And so the absence of any public conversation ah led to a real absence of any sort of private conversation that I would have because I didn't know how to talk about it and I was perceiving that from looking around that no one else was really even talking about it.
00:12:01
Ken Freire
Yeah. so So, how did you all of a sudden realize that the silence was not enough? You decided to talk to the pastor, and they started helping you. What started making this shift for you? Because you could have easily went to the other extreme and said, this was okay, this is for me, this is just who I am, and you're going to live that lifestyle.
00:12:22
Ken Freire
But you started to find a way where you're like, I want to honor God. And this is where where it gets messy right for a lot of people in in Christian circles of how do you help people who are struggling with SSA?
00:12:36
Adam Westlake
Yeah, well, as ah as a happy Calvinist, I think part of what I'll say is just ah truly and not in some like, well, I just read it in a book and I think it's like, I really do chalk it up to you.
00:12:47
Adam Westlake
the the sustaining grace of God that the he kept me.
00:12:52
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:12:53
Adam Westlake
I really do look at a lot of junctures in my life and say, I don't really have a good reason for why I went the way that I did apart from the ministry of the spirit.
00:13:04
Adam Westlake
um
00:13:05
Adam Westlake
Yeah, and so I think what it really, what really it really wisely this pastor that connect me with these other people. I think really wisely what they did was just spend time with me.
00:13:19
Adam Westlake
And it wasn't, okay, we got to figure out this issue. We got to start talking about and doing all this deep work. It was just older guys who treated me normal, and which helped me see
00:13:29
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:13:34
Adam Westlake
that maybe I wasn't that different. I think the the shame of a struggle like same-sex attraction says you are so you are fundamentally more different than other guys than you are similar to them.
00:13:49
Adam Westlake
and meaningful friendship has with other men has taught me that that's not true. And I think that actually created a kind of stability and steady footing for me and to actually begin to then look at and work through and process some of the more specific challenges related to sexuality. But I think first I had to just learn I'm not that different. And that's actually a really good thing.
00:14:21
Ken Freire
Yeah. I love how you said that, because at the beginning, when you were sharing your story, you were like, I was a sensitive, artistic kid, right? That, like, I was different than everybody from West Texas, or you felt like you were so different.
00:14:33
Adam Westlake
Yeah.
00:14:34
Ken Freire
But then the one of the culminating pieces or the shift was these guys were just treating you like normal. Like, hey. you're a guy, and we're going to care for you, we're going to love you, we're going to appreciate you, see your God-given gifts. Like, I'm sure all those things were happening. um What were some other... as As that started to happen, what were some other struggles that you see in yourself? Or maybe let's broaden it a little bit to the LGBTQ community that you see them having these struggles that are that
00:15:06
Ken Freire
they deal with when it comes to trying to reconcile their struggle and the gospel.
00:15:12
Adam Westlake
Mm-hmm. It's a great question.
00:15:17
Adam Westlake
I think one of the the things that comes to my mind going back to the like, I'm not that different. um The way that I would describe it, I've used this illustration with people all the time. It's like if I had two of these exact coffee mugs and I threw them both on the ground and they broke into a bunch of pieces, ah they're going to break into different shaped pieces.
00:15:40
Adam Westlake
ah However, they're made of the same stuff and all of the principles that are that that would apply to putting something like this back together work regardless of what shape the pieces break into. And so I really think it's understanding the the sameness as opposed to differentness or distinction because that that asterisk, that distinction of I'm different is so often used as sort of an escape hatch to go, well, here's why this wouldn't apply to me. Here's why this wouldn't work. Here's why you don't understand how hard this is, or this is unique and doesn't quite work for me because, and while I think there are unique applications of the gospel in specific ways that you need to put specific pieces back together, it's the,
00:16:38
Adam Westlake
It's the refusal to say, I actually need the same thing as everybody else. um And I need to learn how to repent and trust Christ and walk by the Spirit just sit like anybody else. It'll have some challenges that are unique to this particular struggle, but there will be enough grace for me. God will give me what I need. And so I think that's one of the things that I see.
00:17:05
Adam Westlake
is this hopelessness that comes from what i would what I would say is a false belief that I'm fundamentally in need of something else.
Desires and Identity in Christ
00:17:17
Ken Freire
Yeah. and And Adam, I would love for you to speak into this because as you think about them feeling fundamentally different, the language I've always used is that they see themselves, their identity is completely different.
00:17:28
Ken Freire
Like, they can never relate to this other side because they don't... They quite struggle with identity. Right?
00:17:36
Adam Westlake
that's right.
00:17:37
Ken Freire
And that's where I found many times people who who struggle with the SSA, they're like, well You know, I don't I don't like women so like God may not want to use me in that way I'm like, well forget about that for a second, you know, like let's just talk about your relationship with God How do you see that with as you are helping? um Men and women look at the gospel. How do you help them? All of a sudden and start to see their identity not in light of You know their LGBTQ identity, but who they are in Christ.
00:18:07
Adam Westlake
Yeah, I think it's first at doing the work to see where somebody lands on, do they really see this as part of their identity?
00:18:10
Ken Freire
I
00:18:18
Adam Westlake
I think experience and identity are different things. um Something can be a profound experience and a consistent experience, but not be something that's most fundamentally true of someone.
00:18:30
Adam Westlake
and And so I think first I'd start there and just going like, where are we with this? And then I would say,
00:18:37
Adam Westlake
The thing that i'm umm I'm often after with people, um I talked to somebody about it yesterday, this morning, I'll teach on it at a class this week at church, is that fundamentally, like we are as humans created limited ah dependent and dependent, and that Adam and Eve pre-fall needed to eat.
00:19:04
Adam Westlake
And so hunger is an innate part of what it means to be human, both physical but also spiritual, existential hunger. I think seeing that and then going, wow, in a myriad of ways, in a myriad of fallen ways, I'm prone to go try to find bread somewhere that will satisfy my soul, that will that will satiate my hunger.
00:19:29
Adam Westlake
And Jesus, i think is I think this is why he he very explicitly said that he's the bread of life. I don't think he means just one bite of Jesus and you'll never be hungry again. I think it's helping people see there will always be enough for you. This is what Jesus is saying. There will be hunger. It's going to come. There will be longing. There will be desire. It will come. But Jesus at the end of the day has promised to be enough for you.
00:19:58
Adam Westlake
um And when we can get to that place of going, it's not my identity, it's that I'm hungry for something. um And Jesus has promised to be the one that satisfies my hunger. That sounds so churchy, but when we learn to really actually believe that and learn how to actually live it, I think it it helps us disconnect our identity from our struggle and allows it to actually be seen for what it is, which is,
00:20:26
Adam Westlake
I'm trying to go after a shadow to fill myself, which will only actually make me more of a shadow, less real. Jesus said he's true bread. When I go and eat of his flesh, drink his blood, I will become more real. I will become more who he has made me and saved me to be. And then the struggles that I have.
00:20:49
Adam Westlake
um get put kind of in their proper place in terms of this is the thing I experience, this is the thing I struggle with, but it's not most fundamentally who I am.
00:20:58
Ken Freire
Yeah. Adam, I love how you're using the Bread of Life, you know, analogy, because it it really is. Right? Like, how are we satisfying these innate desires? And for all of us, we have these...
00:21:09
Ken Freire
I'm trying to remember who came up with this term, but disorder desires. Right? Because of the fall, we have these disorder desires, and we go to all kinds of different things. Right? I remember one time when I started first going through counseling.
00:21:21
Adam Westlake
Okay.
00:21:23
Ken Freire
um My counselor did this phenomenal thing. We were doing this group counseling session. And he said, hey, I know many of you in this room probably struggle with different things, because we just use the word porn, right? Like, oh, you've watched porn before, but then it's like... What he did was very methodically just said, this is all the types of porn out there that you might be into. And little by little, he just went through one thing at a time. And what he was dispelling, one, was the secrecy of it, right? But then he... What... The second part that he did was he was actually showing how Jesus was the bread of life to all these different scenarios.
00:21:58
Ken Freire
And I just remember sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, no matter, like you went from a very general concept of, hey, he's a bread of black to very specific, like, oh, you struggle with this type of pornography?
00:22:09
Ken Freire
Like, this is how Jesus is a bread of black.
00:22:09
Adam Westlake
Hmm.
00:22:11
Ken Freire
This is how he wants to satisfy you. This is what he's longing for. And my life radically changed in that once one session, dude. I mean, this was like five sessions deep in, but I was like, oh my gosh, I see what my heart is longing for.
00:22:24
Ken Freire
ah So, I say all that, long, long intro to this next question. What are some common themes that you see, and maybe there aren't, but some common themes you see with people struggling with SSA that are like, um that they long for?
Understanding Attractions and Desires
00:22:38
Ken Freire
Things that they're like, hey, I want this from God, but I'm actually pursuing it in other ways.
00:22:43
Adam Westlake
Yeah, gosh, a great question. I think you're right. there's there's I mean, a myriad of of different things. I think one would be using pornography to sort of anesthetize self-contempt. I see a lot of, if I was gonna put it succinctly, like I'm attracted to what I wish I was.
00:23:09
Adam Westlake
and ah So self-contempt for physical appearance or things like that. um I wish I was more blank and I find myself like I'm never going to be able to be that. And so since I can't be that, the next best thing is to possess that in someone else through sexuality. um I'll see ah in a really heartbreaking way, I'll probably cry if we talk about it for too long. um people being sexually attracted to ah characteristics ah physically or storylines physically ah storylines in their pornography that ah reenact or are really similar to ah characteristics of past abuse, whether physical characteristics or situations.
00:23:55
Adam Westlake
um Those are two that come to mind immediately. And and then I think a general one would be just a deep desire for connection um and to feel man enough.
00:24:13
Ken Freire
Yeah, okay. So let's talk about those two if you don't mind the the last two the second one was like they want to reenact the abuse I'm curious like I know a lot of people who want to like run away from it But then they want to reenact it.
00:24:16
Adam Westlake
Yeah.
00:24:23
Ken Freire
Why why would they want to reenact it?
00:24:26
Adam Westlake
i I've heard some say that reenactment is going back to a story in search of a different ending. um That there's something in our subconscious that says, if I can go back to this place, maybe I can make it go a different way.
00:24:46
Adam Westlake
um
00:24:48
Adam Westlake
That's been something that I, and again, um I've only been doing this a little bit. so There are probably people who know a lot more that could speak to this with more clarity, but um yeah, I see this like reenactment of, oh, ah it really confirms self-contempt. It really confirms shameful narratives that people carry about themselves. And going back to these things, ah the intensity of the experience helps us fly away from
00:25:22
Adam Westlake
the pain of self-contempt, but we often use the very things that created shame in the first place to to get away from that pain. And so it creates a kind of feedback loop.
00:25:32
Ken Freire
yeah Yeah, you know, what's interesting is that I have found... I'll use my own story. i I don't want to speak to to everyone else's. From my abuse, abusive past, that those were moments, if I've recalled before God redeemed me, those were the moments that I had the strongest emotions, right?
00:25:50
Ken Freire
And in some ways, as being human, I wanted to find a way to overcome those emotions. But it was the only emotions I knew. Like, I actually didn't know how to feel true joy.
00:26:00
Ken Freire
I didn't know how to feel true peace. All I actually knew was this, like, lustful confusion is the best way to put it.
00:26:06
Adam Westlake
Yeah.
00:26:07
Ken Freire
Anger, frustration, and fear. And it's like, oh, well, if those are the only emotions I know how to feel, what's the best way to to go out to it? So that's why I started to explore all these things.
00:26:16
Adam Westlake
Yeah.
00:26:17
Ken Freire
And I have found many people who come to me when they come with their abuse story that that's like similar, where they're like,
Coping Mechanisms and Isolation
00:26:24
Adam Westlake
Yeah.
00:26:24
Ken Freire
it's the only time I felt something.
00:26:27
Ken Freire
um
00:26:28
Adam Westlake
something Yes, it's something of aliveness. um George McDonald is known for saying, ah this little quote of he's saying, what we need is more life, um not more of the joy of life. um And so often, ah the intensity and and the the dopamine hit of sexuality is the most alive that we feel.
00:26:58
Adam Westlake
especially in the the the deadening of heart that can come from years of ah struggle or from moments of abuse, and learning to go, oh wow, that self-sabotaging behavior is actually because I don't know where else to go to feel alive.
00:27:17
Adam Westlake
And it's why actually people will slowly, over and time, isolate more and more ah because the real world actually wakes things up in them. ah But it's too difficult. It's too real. I'm thinking about ah the great divorce where the ghosts go up to heaven. They start walking towards the mountain and eventually the grass starts to hurt their feet and feel like nails ah because they're it's too real ah for how they currently are.
00:27:45
Adam Westlake
And the journey that Jesus, I think, is offering to take us on is that when we eat his flesh and drink his blood, he makes us more solid and more real to be able to actually enter into the mixture that life often is, which is joy and sorrow, hopefulness and loss, ah happiness and grief. And to say, I don't know how to live in tension like that so often, and that Sexuality allows me to just have all of one and then I feel bad and so I swing all of to another and it keeps me kind of all on one side of the line or not as opposed to ah the way Buechner talks about it where he says nothing's human that's not a broth of false and true. um Nothing is and nothing is not a mixture this side of things in some way.
00:28:36
Adam Westlake
um This is that part where I told you I'm prone to ramble. And so I just go, man, what we need is more life,
Stewarding Desires and Vulnerability
00:28:44
Adam Westlake
not more of the fruits of life.
00:28:44
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:28:46
Adam Westlake
So often people are tempted actually towards sexuality sexual sin on really good days, not on really bad days. And I think it's because of something like that, which is I'm more awake than I've been in a while.
00:28:59
Adam Westlake
I don't want it to stop.
00:29:01
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:29:01
Adam Westlake
Over here is where there's more.
00:29:04
Ken Freire
Yeah. i I mean, I think that's fascinating because so many times I've talked to guys who they're like, there's the common stories of the relapse, right? Of like, oh yeah, relapse when I had a hard day. But then the ones that scare them the most is where they're like, I had an awesome day.
00:29:18
Ken Freire
And then all of a sudden I was just prone to wanting to pursue this thing. Like what happened? And that's where actually more shame comes, right? Because they feel like, oh my gosh, I thought I knew who I was.
00:29:25
Adam Westlake
That's right.
00:29:29
Ken Freire
I thought I was good at something, but now all of a sudden it went away.
00:29:32
Adam Westlake
Yeah, and no matter what I do, even on good days where I feel like I'm doing well, ah it's still gonna be there. and going, yeah, that's your humanness. That's that good part of you that's hungry for life.
00:29:46
Adam Westlake
Now we have to learn not just how to shut down desire, which is so much of what, you know, the past 30 years of the purity culture, that whole thing, but ah not just shut down desire, but actually learn how to steward it and wield it as something to bring goodness into the world, as opposed to just, well, how do I not do bad things or want bad things?
00:30:07
Ken Freire
Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about that. you know as As we shift this conversation, for those who are struggling with SSA and they're struggling with just sin, sexual sin is in general, right how do you help them steward these desires ah so that they can live in wholeness and live within God's redemptive, beautiful story, saying, hey, it doesn't matter what sin you're committing or what struggles you have. like you You can be my son. You could be my child. That could be your identity.
00:30:36
Ken Freire
But now also as your identity, you also have a mission to be a part of.
00:30:41
Adam Westlake
Yeah, and I think that that last part's really huge because it says, hey, following Jesus is about more than just subtracting bad things from your life. um A relationship with Jesus that's about perpetual subtraction isn't really one that will feel very abundant.
00:31:02
Adam Westlake
and so
00:31:04
Adam Westlake
I think I'm after helping people notice when they get hungry and saying, what am I what am i hungry for right now? Okay, I'm feeling b blank. What's a way that I can meaningfully satisfy that desire in a righteous way that honors the Lord? And how can I offer humility and openness by sharing with other people what I feel like I need?
00:31:32
Adam Westlake
I think it's learning to not be ashamed of needing things, not being ashamed of hoping for things or wanting things from other people. Not in some co-dependent way, but just to say, my life is hard and I'm having a having a hard time right now or today. I just wanted you to know and wondered if you'd help me in this way. And so I think it's it's first going, is so getting someone to the place of saying, am I willing to do that? am i willing to Not just confess sin. This is something like real time. My accountability group of guys that I spend a lot of time with and I'm in a very active group text with, even in my own life, I'm going, guys, I want to all the more be talking about things on the front end instead of the back end. I want to talk on the front end of sin, not on the back end. I want to say I'm having a hard day and I'm feeling pretty lonely or I'm feeling disappointed or I'm feeling pretty angry.
00:32:29
Adam Westlake
And I know that might lead me to feeling tempted later. I think it would really help if I could spend some time with some of y'all tonight or one of y'all and your wives tonight. good Could I come to anybody's place tonight just so I could be around some folks? and And I think what I'm hoping people notice in an answer like that, especially if you're somebody who struggles with same-sex attraction,
00:32:53
Adam Westlake
is that nothing about what I just said used the words, sexuality, same-sex attraction. that's I'm trying to illustrate. It's just another expression of hunger and seeking food in a false way. And so when I can just acknowledge my hunger to other people, I think it neutralizes some of the shame and judgment that we can we can feel for feeling tempted in the ways that we are, and will actually allow us to experience God's power being made perfect in our moments of weakness as we're open about them.
00:33:27
Ken Freire
Yeah. and And that actually goes to that last um point when you were saying, hey, here's the three ways that people struggle. The third one was just connection. Like, using that example, I was like, I want to feel connected. I want to feel alive by being with people, you know? I told i told my wife this the other day because we were just chatting it up and we just moved to to Nashville, Tennessee several years ago, so we're still trying to build our community.
00:33:51
Ken Freire
And ah someone recently was just like... She was telling them, like, oh, man, I kind of feel lonely. And they were like, hey, well, you just need to, like, learn how to be satisfied in Christ. And we're like...
00:34:01
Adam Westlake
Thumbs down.
00:34:02
Ken Freire
I was like, yeah yes, like, I get it, but...
00:34:05
Adam Westlake
Yeah.
00:34:06
Ken Freire
But, right? Like, I was like, but we were created for community. We were created to connect with one another.
00:34:10
Adam Westlake
that's right
00:34:12
Ken Freire
Right? Like, as God is Trinity, right? He's three persons in one. We are also called to be in unity. I i told her this passage that's been super powerful in my walk was 1 John 4.12. It says, no one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, his love is made complete in us.
00:34:30
Adam Westlake
yeah
00:34:31
Ken Freire
And just that concept of like, well, if we actually want to see the true love of Christ manifested in our day-to-day lives, like we got to be with each
Theology and Relationship with God
00:34:39
Ken Freire
other. and ah and And just the way you talked about it, like, hey, I'm struggling.
00:34:40
Adam Westlake
That's right.
00:34:43
Ken Freire
I'm feeling hungry. I used to tell people this, I heard this from a communicator long ago. I don't remember who it was, but they always say, confess your thoughts before you have to confess your sins.
00:34:55
Adam Westlake
oh I love that.
00:34:56
Ken Freire
Yeah, and I was just like, oh, yeah like it's way easier. And I'm like, I tell my friends all the time, i' like, hey, I'm struggling with this, I'm struggling with that. like And I love it. I'm sure you're like, I'm about to go get a free meal now, right? Because you're like, hey, can I hang out with someone tonight? And they're like, come on over.
00:35:10
Adam Westlake
and Totally, totally. it It makes me think of this thing that was so common for me that I see, I talked about it with somebody today, um especially if you've like grown up in church or been around church for any amount of time. ah For so long, I'll use myself as the example, for so long I saw it like the truth, the right answers, proper understandings, proper systematic theologies, whatever.
00:35:38
Adam Westlake
thinking that those things would like solve the Rubik's Cube. um But those things on their own weren't changing me. And it's because I wasn't actually learning how to relate to God through them. It was actually how I was using ah theology and truth about God to keep God at arm's length. I was using my right answers as like a way to spiritually bypass my heart and to not have to acknowledge my sorrow, my longing, my anger, my soul hunger.
00:36:07
Adam Westlake
um Because I kind of thought if I knew the right things then I would change and I wouldn't have to really look at all Those things that were painful in my past or in my present and that really did prove feudal It was only I think as I learned how to live that Psalm 62 like pour out your heart before him yeah And really speak with God about the things I said I'll say it this this way to folks Why not talk to God about the things in your heart that he already knows are there?
00:36:18
Ken Freire
Yeah. Yeah.
00:36:36
Adam Westlake
um When you do that, like I think the Lord goes, now we're talking. Heck yeah. like He's like more like that, son. That's what i'm that's what I mean. and and i like When my heart was open and enough for him or to him, that meant it was also open enough for him to like reach into those parts of my heart and actually think about something of change or redemption.
00:37:05
Ken Freire
Yeah. and and And that's the the beauty, right? of Of everything we're doing here, right? And talking about is like, we want people to see what redemption could look like and how they could be redeemed. um Adam, as as you think about this conversation, I'm sure you and I can ramble and talk for a long time, right? um But as we wrap up with people who are struggling and they're like, Adam, I i know I'm struggling. I know I need help.
00:37:34
Ken Freire
But they don't know where to start. What's like a good first maybe one or two practical steps they can start today?
00:37:40
Adam Westlake
Yeah, gosh, a great question. I think first, can you like are you willing to name it? I would start by telling someone to ask themselves that question. like Are you willing to name it to yourself? like I talked with somebody recently who,
00:38:00
Adam Westlake
i you know somewhere between 20 and 30, and i I was the first person that they had ever told that they experienced same-sex attraction. They hadn't told their wife. They hadn't ever told anybody that they were in community with. and It was the first time they'd ever said it out loud. And and I just so blessed the courage in that person. And so I think the first the first piece of practical advice i would I would give someone is to say, look for someone that you trust, that you can be
00:38:40
Adam Westlake
truthful with. and Shame dies in the in the light and grows in the dark. And so you can take a really courageous step and to do a kind of violence to the evil that keeps you bound by walking in the light. This is first John 1. If we walk in the light as he's in the light, then we have fellowship with one another. So there's connection.
00:39:06
Adam Westlake
and the blood of Jesus, his son cleanses us from our sins. So that's healing of guilt and shame. And so I think it if you can have the courage to just find one person that you trust, um that can be a a therapist, that can be a pastor, that can be someone in your community, your small group. and If you can start there, you've actually taken one of the more pivotal steps you've crossed a kind of Rubicon that you can't really ever uncross.
Encouragement to Embrace Identity in Christ
00:39:36
Adam Westlake
You could never say, well, I've never told anybody before. And it creates a kind of movement that if you were if you if you're to hoist your sails even higher, I think you'll catch more of the wind of God and keep moving.
00:39:48
Ken Freire
Yeah. So Adam, for for those people, I'm going to do this. I'm going to throw the layup for you. ah But for those people who are like, I can't find anyone or I don't trust anyone, but they listen to this and they're like, I think I could trust Adam. I heard his story. he' He would understand me better than other people. What's like the best way that they could reach out to you or contact you and just be like, hey, Adam, I want to be truthful for the first time in my life with someone?
00:40:13
Adam Westlake
Yeah, there's there's two ways primarily. and First would be adamwestlakecounseling.com. there's a There's a contact form, there's a schedule and appointment with me button on the website, so that would be one way. I'm on Instagram, just adamwestlake for things there. I'm not the best at social media. It's basically just intermittent pictures of my house with Frederick Buechner quotes.
00:40:40
Adam Westlake
um but ah Those would be the two places. And gosh, if somebody wanted to do that from listening to this, I'd just be so happy to to receive a message from them.
00:40:51
Ken Freire
That's awesome. Adam, ah any final words of encouragement for those listening and they're like, I want the joy that you have. I want peace. I want to finally feel like I could be open and not feel ashamed um of what I'm dealing with. What would be the one piece of advice you got for that?
00:41:12
Adam Westlake
is a great question. I don't want to give a cheap answer.
00:41:18
Adam Westlake
I think I would say you'll always find in your and your fallen flesh and in the
00:41:27
Adam Westlake
multitude of voices in the world, you'll always have more reasons to walk away from Jesus than you have reasons to stay in one sense. But they won't be better reasons than the ones that the wisdom of God's word gives us.
00:41:49
Adam Westlake
um
00:41:51
Adam Westlake
My friend Shane, who I've spent the better part of a decade playing music with, ah It says there's no way to turn off our wanting spigot because we're made wanters. Psalm 23, 1 though, if the Lord's my shepherd, then I can find all of my wanting in him. um It's not that I stop wanting, but that he satisfies all my wants. And I just tell people it really is worth it to keep going and to not
00:42:26
Adam Westlake
turn to the right or to the left. he Jesus really is worth it and the goodness that he promises to bring into your life this side of his return and the the ultimate joy that he promises on the far side of it really are worth it.
00:42:45
Ken Freire
Adam, that's so good to remember that he's our shepherd, and he's a really, really good shepherd. And he's going to bring us to everlasting glory, you know?
00:42:51
Adam Westlake
Yeah.
00:42:54
Ken Freire
And and it's going to be... We're not going to have any more pain, any more sorrow, any more ah temptation. It's going to be like, wow, we're finally home, and all our desires are satisfied in him.
00:43:07
Adam Westlake
That's right.
00:43:07
Ken Freire
And that's going to be a beautiful day. ah Adam, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for sharing your story and also just sharing your wisdom, man. I got a lot out of this. I hope the audience will will get that too.
00:43:19
Ken Freire
And for those who of you who are listening and you're like, man, I really can speak to Adam or you want to speak to Adam, please, I'm going to put his information in the show notes. Adam Westlake. counseling Counseling.com. All right? So make sure, make sure, make sure you go check that out. Adam, thank you once again for being here. And for those of you who are still listening, remember every day, kill shame, stand strong, and be on mission. Hope you guys have a great day, and God bless.