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Becoming a Godly Sexual Man: What the Church Never Taught You | Guest: Sam Jolman
236 Plays1 year ago
What if everything you thought you knew about sexual purity missed the bigger picture?
In this powerful episode of the shame(less) podcast, Ken Freire sits down with therapist and author Sam Jolman, who wrote The Sex Talk You Never Got, to explore what it truly means to become a godly sexual man. They unpack how the church’s teaching on purity culture, while well-meaning, often left men with more shame than freedom—and why it’s time for a better conversation about sexuality, desire, and the body.
Together, they dive into:
- The difference between lust and arousal
- How to honor your God-given sexual design without guilt
- What healthy masculinity looks like in the context of Scripture
- Why desire is not the enemy—and how to reorient it toward worship
- How emotional dysregulation masquerades as sexual need
- Why Jesus was the most sensual man who ever lived—and still sinless
Whether you're married, single, or in recovery from sexual addiction, this episode will help you begin reclaiming your sexual story from a place of freedom, delight, and holiness.
🧠 Key Topics Covered:
- Why purity culture often led to shame and confusion
- Arousal vs. lust: understanding the difference
- The role of beauty, play, and pleasure in spiritual formation
- How Jesus modeled healthy sensuality
- Rewriting the narrative: what it means to be a godly sexual man
- The spiritual power of being fully present with your body
- Turning the tables on shame through God's kindness
📘 About Sam Jolman:
Sam Jolman is a therapist, counselor, and the author of The Sex Talk You Never Got. He’s spent years helping men heal from shame, understand their sexual design, and live as whole, integrated, godly men. Sam writes regularly about faith, masculinity, and sexuality on Substack, and offers resources and workshops through his website.
👉 Get the Book + Free Paperback: https://samjolman.com
🔗 Resources & Links:
- Sam Jolman’s Website: https://samjolman.com
- Join His Substack Community: https://samjolman.substack.com
- Buy the Book: The Sex Talk You Never Got – Available wherever books are sold
- Follow Sam on Instagram: @samjolman
🧵 Timestamps:
- 00:03 – The problem with how the church teaches purity
- 02:00 – Why “Am I sinning?” is not a deep enough question
- 05:00 – How purity culture mishandled the male body
- 13:00 – Arousal vs. lust: a biblical and scientific breakdown
- 20:00 – Why sex is often misused as emotional regulation
- 26:00 – What it means to be a good sexual man
- 32:00 – Jesus, sensuality, and the power of beauty
- 39:00 – Why play is essential for sexual wholeness
- 43:00 – Final encouragement: Turn the tables on shame
Recommended
Transcript
Intro
Challenging Traditional Views on Sexuality
00:00:30
Ken Freire
What if everything you were taught about sexual purity missed the bigger picture? Or why do so many Christian men feel more shame than freedom when it comes to their sexuality?
00:00:44
Ken Freire
What if your struggles with sexual sin aren't just about discipline, but something far deeper in your soul? And how can a man be both godly and sexual without guilt and shame?
Introduction of Sam Jolman and His Motivation
00:00:58
Ken Freire
These are the questions that we are going to be talking about today. And today's topic is becoming a godly sexual man. What the church never taught you. And today have a phenomenal guest, Sam Jolman. He's a therapist, counselor, and the author of The Sex Talk You Never Got.
00:01:15
Ken Freire
Sam has spent years helping men heal from shame, understand their sexual design, and reclaim a healthy view of masculinity. Sam, welcome to the show, man.
00:01:26
Sam Jolman
Ken, thanks for having me. It's such an honor to be here.
00:01:29
Ken Freire
I know, man. We've been talking back and forth through text and email and stuff like that and before this podcast.
00:01:31
Sam Jolman
Yeah.
00:01:35
Ken Freire
And I think we have such like-minded spirits of wanting to help men.
00:01:37
Sam Jolman
Mm-hmm.
00:01:39
Ken Freire
And I want to know from you.
00:01:39
Sam Jolman
I felt that too.
00:01:41
Ken Freire
Yeah, man, I just want to know from you. I told you this too. I read your book and I was like, this is such great stuff. Just the angles you hit and all the stories on them.
00:01:48
Sam Jolman
Mm-hmm.
00:01:48
Ken Freire
There are several that are hilarious, dude. was dying and I was like, I want to share all of them. I know we don't have time to share all of it.
00:01:55
Ken Freire
But I want to know from you, what actually inspired you to write this book and why this topic is so crucial for men today?
Integrating Godliness and Natural Desires
00:02:03
Sam Jolman
Yeah, you know, I would say couple things. The first is as a counselor, as a therapist, sitting with and having the honor of sitting with so many men over the years and hearing men approach their sexuality with only one tool, which was am I sinning or not sinning?
00:02:22
Sam Jolman
Right. That was kind of the only metric they had when it came to their sexuality is I'm behaving or not behaving.
00:02:30
Ken Freire
Thank you.
00:02:30
Sam Jolman
And it felt like, man, there's this whole other world of desire and what God created good in you and your lover heart. And it felt like men did not know how to even begin to talk about the integration of sexuality in their body or the things, how to process even parts of their own story.
00:02:54
Sam Jolman
So I would say, first of all, just feeling this deep ache to help men find a deeper conversation about their sexuality, both with themselves and with their community and really as a way to find freedom.
Cultural Influences and Personal Inspiration
00:03:08
Sam Jolman
Along with that, obviously, is my own journey. sexuality, I think of the young man I was and how sexuality has been such a place of some of my core struggles in life.
00:03:20
Sam Jolman
Sure, sexual struggles, struggles with pornography, but just even my own embracing of desire in marriage and how to integrate with my body and being a sexual being, all of that has, you know, been a part of my journey. And so I, in some ways I'm writing to that young man, right. Wanting to give other young men or men who didn't get any meaningful sex talk or who have struggled as they enter midlife even right in their sexuality or beyond just a greater conversation, greater way to approach their sexuality.
00:03:59
Sam Jolman
And then obviously is the larger conversation our culture is having. Honestly, one of the final kicks for me was the Me Too movement.
Beyond Behavioral Reduction of Sexuality
00:04:07
Sam Jolman
And, you know, as we all bore witness to stories, story after story of, you know, anything from, you know, the sexual overt sexual harm from a man, just the simple cat calling. Right. And I call it simple, but that the the struggles that women have suffered,
00:04:26
Sam Jolman
In the name of male sexual desire. And, you know, I think the cultural question was, are men just fundamentally monsters? Are they just sort of animalistically sexual?
00:04:38
Sam Jolman
You know, will boys just be boys, as we say, right? And obviously, as a Christian, I know, no, right? Like male sexuality is the artwork of God, right?
00:04:50
Sam Jolman
There must be a bigger vision here than just this sort of animal lustful slap on the hand to men of you just need to behave. So all of that came together and I finally had the motivation to write the book and here we
Church Teachings and Misunderstandings
00:05:08
Sam Jolman
are. It's out in the world.
00:05:09
Ken Freire
Yeah. Well, Sam, you know, and that's what brings us to today, right? Because when you and I started first talking about this, I remember you were like, hey, obviously sin is an aspect of it, but there's so many more aspects that the church has failed to talk about.
00:05:24
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:05:26
Ken Freire
And you and I both grew up around that purity culture phase.
00:05:30
Sam Jolman
Mm-hmm.
00:05:31
Ken Freire
And we could talk about that a little bit, but what were some of the issues that like the church kind of missed? And let me put this. I love the church. I love the local church.
00:05:40
Sam Jolman
Mm-hmm.
00:05:40
Ken Freire
I don't want to bash it like I'm a hater and don't go. But there are times where we just missed the mark on certain things. We're imperfect.
00:05:46
Sam Jolman
Mm-hmm.
00:05:47
Ken Freire
So for most men, many of them report receiving that guidance on sexuality from their parents in churches, and they've missed it. So what do you think are those areas that Christian communities have neglected?
00:06:02
Sam Jolman
Well, you know, you mentioned purity culture and purity culture being this attempt. And I love the church, too. I, you know, it is the bride of Christ. And I so I say these things as a lover of the church.
00:06:16
Sam Jolman
But, you know, purity culture was this attempt to create some sort of sexual ethic. a response to the sexual revolution, right? How do we have a, how do we invite godly sexuality?
00:06:30
Sam Jolman
And it was latching onto this one word purity, right? That, that purity is the aim of our sexuality. And, think what ended up happening is this hyper focus on purity as virginity and sexual purity as the only point of sexuality.
00:06:51
Ken Freire
Thank you.
00:06:52
Sam Jolman
For women, there was a hyper focus on modesty and not tempting men. But for men, you know, the lesson or the message, the primary message is, right, you're largely a lustful being.
00:07:06
Sam Jolman
And you're going to just always be on the brink of lust. And so you need to really be hyper-focused on making sure you're not acting out sexually with lust.
00:07:17
Sam Jolman
And it ended up creating this, I think, an over-identification of sexual desire with lust or sexual feelings with lust, right? That anything that moves in me.
00:07:28
Sam Jolman
is suspect, right? That I am largely an animal and I am, you know, always near to the brink of falling into lust sexual sin.
00:07:39
Sam Jolman
think it made enemies of our bodies, right? And then in the name of killing the flesh, we repented of having a body. Right? And we didn't know how to sit well with sexual desire or even bless sexual desire to notice that it's a gift given to us.
Recognizing Pleasure and the Body's Design
00:07:58
Sam Jolman
And that it, you know, obviously within relationship, within marriage, in courtship, but it's also a gift in the sense that it mirrors who we are as sensual beings, right? The church has struggled with how do we honor healthy pleasure?
00:08:17
Sam Jolman
Like, you know, even just the design of our bodies, you have 4,000 taste buds roughly in your mouth. You know, clearly God is saying, you know, I want you to enjoy the pleasure good Right. Not just survive and take in food as nutrition, although that's true, but also to enjoy all the pleasures I've created of a mango.
00:08:41
Sam Jolman
Right. Or a strawberry or chocolate. Right. That all of those pleasures were meant to lead you to worship God. You also have eight to ten thousand nerve endings in your genitalia.
00:08:54
Sam Jolman
Right again to Mark and not that everyone will be sexually active, but your body needs to be witness that you were created for pleasure.
00:09:05
Sam Jolman
You were created for good embodiment. And I think. You know, the church has wrestled with making the body an enemy in a certain way and over identifying sin with what moves in the body.
00:09:19
Sam Jolman
And, you know, I think that has made men suspicious of themselves or, you know, it's over brought shame or burdened men with shame about things that are just natural to your body.
Body and Desire: Philosophical Perspectives
00:09:35
Ken Freire
Yeah. You know, I'm trying to remember if it was Gnostic philosophy or Platonic philosophy. I can't remember when they started separating the sacred and secular. But part of that was the body, right?
00:09:46
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:09:46
Ken Freire
But like, oh, the body is secular.
00:09:48
Sam Jolman
Right.
00:09:48
Ken Freire
So because of that, it's bad. Everything about it is bad.
00:09:52
Sam Jolman
Right.
00:09:52
Ken Freire
Only the spiritual is holy.
00:09:55
Sam Jolman
Right.
00:09:55
Ken Freire
And I find that so much. I found that in my journey where I was like, oh, I have this sexual desire. I got to like kill every single desire I have. And it's like, no, there was a part of my life because we all live in a fallen world that things are corrupted.
00:10:10
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:10:10
Ken Freire
But just because it's corrupted doesn't mean it's completely destroyed and it's completely evil.
00:10:16
Sam Jolman
Right.
00:10:16
Ken Freire
It just means that we can reorient it back to God.
00:10:18
Sam Jolman
Right.
Arousal vs. Lust: Clarifying Misunderstandings
00:10:19
Sam Jolman
Right. And I mean, we have examples of church fathers, right, who literally maimed their body, right, castrated themselves or threw themselves into thorn bushes.
00:10:22
Ken Freire
Yeah. Yeah.
00:10:29
Sam Jolman
Or, you know, one man who said he he he threw his body against the rocks until he was black and blue. Right. This physical, I would say, literal self-hatred.
00:10:37
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:10:41
Sam Jolman
Right.
00:10:41
Sam Jolman
Right. That against God's design of your body, you know, and we've marked them. I mean, there are we've venerated them. There are stained glass windows of I can't remember the guy's name who one of the, you know, one of the church fathers who threw himself into a thorn bush.
00:11:00
Sam Jolman
Because he was afraid of experiencing lust, right? He had recalled a beautiful woman he saw. And so in response, threw himself into a bush. And, you know, again, we might say, well, that's, you know, that's outdated. We don't do that.
00:11:14
Sam Jolman
My goodness, I have sat with so many men who in the midst of their own sexual struggles have, you know, sex addiction recovery groups that will invite men to snap their wrists with rubber bands, right?
00:11:28
Ken Freire
I had been a part of that long ago. Sorry to interrupt you, but I remember one counselor was doing. They're like, just snap this rubber band every time you have the desire. And I'm like, I'm snapping all day, dude.
00:11:28
Sam Jolman
a
00:11:39
Ken Freire
just like, walking around like snapping. My wrist hurt after a while.
00:11:43
Sam Jolman
Right. And, you know, again, it's it is attempting to, I would say, rid the body of something that was created for, meaning arousal, sexual arousal is different than lust.
00:11:57
Sam Jolman
And when Jesus talked about lust, right, and let's say the Sermon on the Mount, you know, there's a sense that he. He's saying, yes, lust exists, but it's something that you participate in.
00:12:13
Sam Jolman
It's something, the best translation I've heard of that passage, you know, any man who looks lustfully at a woman is guilty of adultery, right? Is that there's a sense he's saying someone who goes on looking for the sake of lust, meaning you're intentionally cultivating something of fantasy. It's not simply, oh, I noticed a beautiful woman or a beautiful person and I felt something.
00:12:43
Sam Jolman
That's not inherently lustful. But we treat it as such, right? And I know men who have literally punch themselves, right? And the name of trying to, you know, rid themselves of their own sexual struggles or, you know, will take cold showers or, you know, create punishments for themselves to try to associate pain with lust. And, you know, my sense is God's invitation is to something far kinder,
00:13:15
Sam Jolman
Right. You know, Paul's words in Romans, it's the kindness of God that leads to repentance. So, you know, again, your question, what is the church done? I think it's made an enemy of the body inadvertently and in the name of trying to create sexual, a sexual ethic.
00:13:33
Ken Freire
Yeah. So let's redeem that in this conversation as we're talking about it. And you brought up something really profound that I don't want us to skip. You said that there's a difference between sexual arousal and lust.
00:13:45
Ken Freire
And I think that's one of the things that the church has done is they just made it where all sexual arousal feels lustful. I know sometimes we would use the line, well, if you look at a woman once, you're fine.
00:13:51
Sam Jolman
Yes. Yes.
00:13:56
Ken Freire
But if you look at her second, all a sudden it's lust. And you're just like... Man, that trigger can feel so fast that it feels like it's the first time anyways.
00:14:05
Ken Freire
How do you redeem that? Give maybe an explanation of the difference between sexual arousal and lust for those of you guys who are listening.
00:14:12
Sam Jolman
Yeah. So arousal is a body term and it, it, it's a statement of just the body's response to sexual stimuli. And it is, you know, it's something that was codified,
00:14:26
Sam Jolman
by a couple of researchers, Masters and Johnson in the sixties. And they, there's a very set arousal cycle that we go through. and it's, uh, it's the same for men and women.
00:14:37
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:14:40
Sam Jolman
only difference is men have a refractory period, after orgasm. But other than that, our bodies will track the same arousal cycle. And arousal, again, is a body statement.
00:14:52
Sam Jolman
It is, as one researcher says, Emily Nagoski, you know, arousal is just like sexual radar. It's just telling you something sexually relevant to you is happening.
00:15:07
Sam Jolman
Whether in the room with you or connected to something you were thinking about or something that you saw or something that somebody said, right? That something sexually relevant is happening.
00:15:19
Sam Jolman
It makes no statement about desire. So, and interestingly, by the way, men and women are equally sexually aroused visually.
00:15:32
Sam Jolman
So we often have this sense that men are more visual. And that is a lie. Men are not more visual than women.
00:15:40
Sam Jolman
There was a meta study done on that, meaning women are... Gender was the least indicator of arousal in the study they made, meaning like age or sexual orientation and et cetera, et cetera.
00:15:54
Sam Jolman
Gender was least indicative of arousal. So arousal, again, it's a body term and it's a response to sexual stimuli. And men and women are equally sexually aroused by visual stimuli or relational stimuli or emotional stimuli, whatever's happening.
00:16:11
Sam Jolman
Desire is the part where we get to participate. So desire happens in the heart. So again, you can have desire as a response to arousal or not.
00:16:24
Sam Jolman
And what you do with desire, meaning you see a beautiful person and you feel arousal, you now have a choice, right? Are you gonna carry it into a fantasy?
00:16:36
Sam Jolman
Certainly you could cultivate lust or you could say, wow, that's a beautiful person. And thank God, actually. Wow. Thank God for beauty in the world.
00:16:47
Sam Jolman
Right. That that you could honor that person's beauty and move on and not take it to lust. You know where again, this is called arousal non concordance, which is a big technical term just to say that arousal and desire are not the same.
00:17:05
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:17:05
Sam Jolman
I think the overlap for women is 10%, and for men, it's around 50%, meaning that arousal becomes desire or desire leads to arousal. How often does that happen?
00:17:18
Sam Jolman
And so, you know, as a therapist, I ran into this most often work with sexual abuse victims.
00:17:27
Sam Jolman
where it is not uncommon for a sexual abuse victim to experience physical arousal in abuse. Right. And, and of course we would say, you know, is, is that a statement of they
Sexual Desire as a Mask for Emotional Dysregulation
00:17:43
Sam Jolman
wanted to be abused?
00:17:45
Sam Jolman
No. Right. And this is often the confusion of a sexual abuse victim is it feels like my body betrayed me. Right. Why did my body experience sexual arousal in something that was terrifying or harmful to me?
00:18:02
Sam Jolman
Right. And that can feel very accusing. But it's simply this. Again, the body registers sexual stimuli. It's not a statement of if you want it or don't want it yet.
00:18:16
Sam Jolman
It's just naming the body's radar. So, again, know, We tend to burden, know, this can be a place where, again, victims in particular can feel burdened with shame or even accusation, right? Sometimes somebody who has abused or perpetrated abuse can actually use arousal to blame their victim and say, well, you wanted it.
00:18:44
Sam Jolman
You enjoyed it. You seem to experience arousal, right? And again, arousal is not a statement of desire. How do you know if you want something? The person will say it. I want this.
00:18:55
Sam Jolman
I don't want this. Right? Desire is that simple in a certain way. And again, even here, maybe it'd be worth naming. Like we often associate,
00:19:09
Sam Jolman
you know, sex as a drive. Right? in the body that it's, we call it a sex drive, right? And, but sex is actually a desire. It's not essential for living as other drives are like oxygen food and even love.
00:19:25
Sam Jolman
So again, the goodness here is you get to participate in desire. You get to shape desire, right? That's where we get to live out a sexual ethic and have choice and be curious and walk with ourselves in our desire.
Healthy Emotional Regulation
00:19:52
Ken Freire
feel like I need all the time. That's why I run to pornography or run to these women run to these things because I feel this intense emotion and the desire to go pursue that.
00:19:59
Sam Jolman
Yeah.
00:20:06
Ken Freire
How do you help them understand that that's actually not that... a need, but a want.
00:20:12
Sam Jolman
Yeah. You know, two things I would say, you know, desire can be very powerful in the body, right? We can experience very powerful desire, even powerful sexual desire. And that's a good thing.
00:20:27
Sam Jolman
It's just marking... you know, you're not going to die, even though you might feel like it, right? You're not going to die without it. You will survive. The other thing I would say is most times when men experience it as that powerful of an urge, I would say most times, think,
00:20:53
Sam Jolman
what's probably going on is actually emotional dysregulation that, you know, a man can get very stressed out and men can in particular can come to rely on sexual release,
00:21:09
Sam Jolman
for stress relief, for emotional regulation, for soothing, right? So, you know, had a client say to me, always knew what kind of day my husband had based on how he had sex with me that night.
00:21:25
Sam Jolman
And there were nights where it was obvious he had a bad day because I became the thing. It felt like He was driven to conquer something.
00:21:39
Sam Jolman
And so, you know, and she said it felt terrible. It was not lovemaking. I felt very tangential to the process. I didn't even feel like he was connecting to me.
00:21:51
Sam Jolman
And what I would mark there is, right, this man obviously had a bad day. And she could note that. And probably was emotionally dysregulated, stressed out.
00:22:03
Sam Jolman
You know, I a client that said to me, he was a high power attorney. And he would say in the midst of my hardest days, I would use pornography, you know, to manage stressful days and go get release. And I would feel better.
00:22:21
Sam Jolman
And feel like I was level headed again and I could keep going. So what's going on there? There's a body confusion happening where stressed out emotional dysregulation numbness or shutdown even, right? It might be high stress or it might just be like boredom.
00:22:42
Sam Jolman
Or numbness, like I just feel
Relational Sex vs. Coping Mechanism
00:22:43
Sam Jolman
numb. But either way, sex or sexual release is being used to try to emotionally regulate your body. Either get calmer or get more activated somehow, like wake yourself up.
00:22:58
Sam Jolman
And I would say actually, there are far healthier, more beneficial ways to emotionally regulate yourself. Sex is a stress reliever and that's okay.
00:23:09
Sam Jolman
But it was not meant to be
00:23:15
Ken Freire
The end all be all.
00:23:16
Sam Jolman
an end all be all, right? Like this is the one thing and this is my only way. There's actually highly... More effective ways to regulate yourself. Meaning like I think about that husband with his wife, right? And I wonder what it would have, how much better it would have been if he just talked to his wife about his stressful day, right? Like that could have been a far more regulating situation.
00:23:43
Sam Jolman
experience and actually connecting for him to talk out what was hard about his day. And again, if it led to sex, great, but it would have been more connected and relational and, and probably sex would feel less necessary, right.
00:24:01
Sam Jolman
And more free in their
00:24:03
Ken Freire
Yeah.
Reclaiming Sexuality and Sensuality
00:24:04
Sam Jolman
lives.
00:24:04
Ken Freire
And you're not talking and again, you're not saying they shouldn't have it or that they can't have it, but you're just talking about a healthy way to regulate besides just coping with sex.
00:24:09
Sam Jolman
Right. Right.
00:24:15
Sam Jolman
Right. I think that sex is best. It's best when sex happens when both partners are some level of emotionally regulated in present.
00:24:31
Sam Jolman
right to where it's actually a relationally connecting experience. um um There's a woman author, Alexandra Katahakis, I think, and I'm probably slaughtering her name.
00:24:46
Sam Jolman
She says it's possible.
00:24:47
Ken Freire
Don't worry. She probably not listening to this podcast. You're good.
00:24:50
Sam Jolman
If you are, that would be awesome. she's a researcher and she said, it is possible have partnered sex That's actually just auto erotic.
00:25:01
Sam Jolman
Meaning you are just simply using the person to get release. You're not actually bonding with them. You're not actually connecting to them. Right? It's not a relationally playful process.
00:25:15
Sam Jolman
And so what I'm inviting is, yeah, again, I'm not saying don't have sex when you're stressed. I'm saying, are you able to be relationally connected in that?
00:25:26
Sam Jolman
And have you brought yourself or done what you need to do to be present and able to relationally connect with your partner?
00:25:34
Ken Freire
Yeah. So, Sam, you know, let's turn the corner because we're talking lot about the like, here's the problems that we
Honoring Beauty and Sensuality
00:25:41
Ken Freire
see. Right. And here's how men are trying to cope with their sexual desire.
00:25:47
Ken Freire
But there are a lot of guys who are like, I want to become a godly man, but I want to become a godly sexual man.
00:25:53
Sam Jolman
Yeah.
00:25:53
Ken Freire
And I've had all this baggage and they could walk away listening to this and be like, wait a minute. So now I can't even have sex. And we're like, no, no, no.
00:26:00
Sam Jolman
Hmm. Yeah.
00:26:01
Ken Freire
That's not what we're saying. You know.
00:26:03
Ken Freire
What does a good sexual ethic and a good sexual man look like?
00:26:08
Sam Jolman
Yeah. Well, let's just start with, right. The idea of associating good with sexual, right.
00:26:14
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:26:14
Sam Jolman
Like to say, Oh, that man is so sexual is always a pejorative right now. Right. You know, we associate that as like, Oh, that's sleazy or, or, or dirty or something.
00:26:20
Ken Freire
Yeah, 100%.
00:26:25
Sam Jolman
Right. But so yes, like how do we fight to recover the goodness of our sexuality? Well, at first I, you know, I think at one level it's honoring you were made to be moved.
00:26:36
Sam Jolman
And so, to begin to reclaim the sensuality of your own body, which is you were made to be moved by beauty.
00:26:46
Sam Jolman
And so can you honor that it is good and God's design in you that you're moved by a beautiful person?
00:26:56
Sam Jolman
And meaning if you see a beautiful woman, it's not lustful that you feel something. Now, again, what you with that certainly could take you into lust, but it could also take you into just gratitude to God, right? That he's made beauty, similar to how you would feel moved by a sunset, right? Or, you know, I think of men who love a good cigar, right? What is a good cigar all about? It's all about sensuality.
00:27:30
Sam Jolman
It tastes good. It feels good. Right. The ritual of sitting on my deck with a fire, right. And in the fire pit, right. Can you just hear all the sensuality to that? The smells of the smoke.
00:27:46
Sam Jolman
Right. Or, you know, like, yeah, yeah.
00:27:49
Ken Freire
The feeling of ruggedness, you know, like I'm mistaken because you brought the fireplace in and you're just like nighttime and you're just like, I'm living out my best manliness kind of feeling.
00:27:59
Sam Jolman
Yes, right. There's a good virility am soaking in sensuality right now. The mood of the night, the fire, the smoke, the cigar, right? Like all of that is sensuality again. And so beginning to learn how to bless good sensuality in your body, can you take in the beauty of a good sunset?
00:28:23
Sam Jolman
And can you see that as similar to taking in the beauty of a person and learning how to reverence that. That is, I think, one way to integrate with our sexuality well.
00:28:37
Sam Jolman
Meaning like, you know, if you think of, this is my opinion, but two of the most virile men, good sexual virile men in scripture.
Biblical Examples of Sexual Expression
00:28:48
Sam Jolman
You know, I think of Adam in the garden. who experienced sexuality, sexual arousal, the only person who experienced it along with Eve, pre-sin, pre-shame.
00:29:02
Sam Jolman
And what did he do when he met Eve in her naked glory while he was also naked? Well, one of the very first things he did is break out in poetry.
00:29:14
Sam Jolman
It moved heart to become a poet. Or you think of Song of Songs, right? mean, clearly a portrayal of lovers who are escaping to make love in the countryside, right? Who can't hardly keep their hands off each other.
00:29:31
Sam Jolman
And very descriptive language around their sexual engagement. But again, it's in poetry. Meaning these are guys being moved not just to get release,
00:29:43
Sam Jolman
But there's something about their poet, what I've called the poet lover, right? This like they know how to be confident, sensual beings.
00:29:57
Sam Jolman
Right. Like the lover in Song of Songs is comparing his bride, his the woman he's making love to, to all the other things in his life.
00:30:03
Ken Freire
Thank you.
00:30:05
Sam Jolman
Right. Like good wine or the flock of goats coming down Mount Bashan. Right. Like he's he's connecting it to all these other sensual experiences in his life.
00:30:17
Sam Jolman
And so, again, I think being a good sexual man means learning how to integrate with healthy sensuality. Meaning not falling into addiction.
00:30:27
Sam Jolman
Right? So like the difference between tasting a good bourbon and throwing back 12 beers.
Responsible Enjoyment vs. Addiction
00:30:36
Sam Jolman
Right? You're probably not tasting anything.
00:30:40
Ken Freire
Yeah. At that point, you're trying to cope with something.
00:30:42
Sam Jolman
Right. Right. Like something has switched to a bad place.
00:30:46
Sam Jolman
But there is a way that you can enjoy the sensuality right, of a good bourbon without it becoming an abuse of your body or an abuse of your sensuality.
00:31:00
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:31:00
Sam Jolman
You know, so that's the picture is can you reverence beauty?
00:31:06
Ken Freire
Yeah, and Sam, I think you do really great job in your book of talking about how do you go from reverence to worshiping God.
Sensuality and Worship in Singleness
00:31:14
Ken Freire
And want to talk about, you know, as you point in Adam, you know, Song of Solomon,
00:31:14
Sam Jolman
Yeah. Yeah.
00:31:20
Ken Freire
But there's also Jesus, right? And Jesus, he fully embodied his sensuality and he was single.
00:31:22
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:31:27
Ken Freire
And one of the ways he did that was through worshiping his father and seeing the beauty in his father.
00:31:27
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:31:30
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:31:33
Ken Freire
For men who might be single and they're like, well, I don't have wife right now and I don't have these things. How do you guide both married men and single men to a place where they're worshiping God?
00:31:38
Sam Jolman
Yeah.
00:31:44
Ken Freire
And that's part of their good sexual ethic.
00:31:44
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:31:47
Sam Jolman
Yeah, you know, I would say, well, one of the stories I would point out that I share in the end of my book is the story of Jesus with the woman who bathes his feet.
00:31:59
Sam Jolman
right? With the, the, the alabaster jar of pure nard and, and weeps over him and, and literally is bathing his feet with her hair. Right. And, and tradition has said that this woman was an ex prostitute. Right. And we don't know.
00:32:16
Sam Jolman
It's just says she was a sinful woman or was known for being a sinful woman. Right. And so, but the sense is she's quite possibly an ex prostitute.
00:32:26
Sam Jolman
And,
00:32:26
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:32:28
Sam Jolman
And the men in that setting are like, Jesus, what are you doing? Do you not know who's touching you right now? Like, what are you, what is going on?
00:32:38
Sam Jolman
I would say it's a very sensual scene, right? Like Jesus is experiencing touch from a woman and she is,
00:32:51
Sam Jolman
pouring an alabaster jar of pure nard, right? Like the sensuality, aroma of that moment and the physical touch happening. And obviously the passion of her love for him, which was not sexual, right? Was just his, her gratitude for him.
00:33:08
Sam Jolman
but I, I would say Jesus knew the line between that healthy sensuality and connection and sexuality and violation.
00:33:18
Sam Jolman
and, And so I would say he's experiencing lots of sensuality, but he's not taking it to lust. So again, he's allowing for connection with women that is bonding, but it's not going into something violating. So that would be just one example I'd give of Jesus life.
00:33:40
Sam Jolman
But what I would say to a single person is, you know, cultivating the capacity for beauty, right? Meaning, can you be undone by symphony?
Deepening Relationship with God through Beauty
00:33:53
Sam Jolman
can you be undone by, a beautiful sunset? Like fill your life with beautiful things, learn how to take in good art, right? that will teach you reverence beauty,
00:34:10
Sam Jolman
Because it's the arrogant who can't be moved by beauty because it actually takes a secure person to let yourself be overpowered by something that's that moving.
00:34:28
Ken Freire
Yeah, and let me just jump in here real quick. Sorry, Sam, before you go in.
00:34:31
Ken Freire
You know, of things I have found sometimes with men, especially as they're digging into like the word of God, sometimes it can be so tactile, right? They're like, oh, I found this principle or this truth and I'm going to walk into it.
00:34:41
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:34:42
Ken Freire
But they don't see the beauty of God throughout scripture.
00:34:45
Sam Jolman
Yeah.
00:34:45
Ken Freire
So like if you can't see beauty in nature, you can't see beauty in life. It's so much harder when you're reading a book.
00:34:49
Sam Jolman
Yeah.
00:34:52
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:34:52
Ken Freire
And yes, it is God-breathed. It is the word of God. And it's sharper than any two-edged sword. It's active.
00:34:57
Sam Jolman
Yeah.
00:34:58
Ken Freire
But what I have found is that when you can all of a sudden start to see how good God is, and I love how you were talking about Jesus.
00:35:03
Sam Jolman
Yes. Yes.
00:35:06
Ken Freire
Like, wait, no, no, there was a sensual moment. I'm like, yes, there was. You think about that all throughout scripture of good our bodies are connected to what's happening.
00:35:16
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:35:16
Ken Freire
I think about like Zephaniah 317, where he says that he delights in you and he dances over you.
00:35:22
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:35:23
Ken Freire
Like if we can't just stop and just see like, wait a minute, God delights in me.
00:35:24
Sam Jolman
Right.
00:35:27
Ken Freire
He enjoys me, right?
00:35:28
Sam Jolman
Yeah.
00:35:29
Ken Freire
Most men don't even like to dance, right? So the fact that he's dancing, like he's celebrating about how good we are, man, that's the beauty of God.
00:35:31
Sam Jolman
Right.
00:35:35
Sam Jolman
Yeah.
00:35:37
Ken Freire
Or just even the cross where he's like, we deserve the wrath of God.
00:35:37
Sam Jolman
Yeah.
00:35:40
Ken Freire
And it's like, no, no, no. I shed my blood for you.
00:35:43
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:35:44
Ken Freire
And there's a beautiful thing there that's happening.
00:35:46
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:35:46
Ken Freire
But we don't equate those. What we tend to do many times is like, that's a good doctrinal statement. It might move us a little bit, but we don't sit. And I love how you said it, just to be undone by those things.
00:35:56
Sam Jolman
Yes. Right. To name that God likes you.
00:35:59
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:36:00
Sam Jolman
Right. And as you're saying that the language of delight and, you know, I would say even, know, what you're inviting is, can you learn to dance In your body, right? You think of David as a lover or David as a worshiper, right?
00:36:16
Sam Jolman
mean, here is a very prolific poet, David. Even, you know, most of his answer to things in his life was to write poetry. Even when he was caught in the horrors of his own sin, his own sexual sin with Bathsheba, what does he do?
00:36:33
Sam Jolman
He writes Psalm 51. Right. We, he wrote a poem. He's it's, there was something about his repentance that involved returning to his lover heart.
00:36:45
Sam Jolman
And, you know, you know, obviously where, I think Michael cast shame on him for dancing as the arc is coming back into Jerusalem, right? He's dancing.
00:36:56
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:36:57
Sam Jolman
uh, you know, I think some wonder if he was even maybe dancing naked. I think the language is that he was dancing in like an undershirt, right?
00:37:03
Ken Freire
Yeah, like his undergarments.
00:37:03
Sam Jolman
Like,
00:37:04
Ken Freire
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:05
Sam Jolman
His undergarments, right? Like he is dancing vigorously. And I think, you know, I make the connection stronger in my book, but the connection between sexuality and play is, I actually think sex was meant to be and is in its essence, its healthy form, a form of play.
00:37:27
Sam Jolman
And so, you know, as a single person, do you know how to play well?
00:37:33
Ken Freire
Thank you.
00:37:33
Sam Jolman
Have you ever danced to worship music?
The Role of Play in Sexuality
00:37:36
Sam Jolman
And the privacy of your own home may be right because of the vulnerability, but can you let your body be animated?
00:37:45
Sam Jolman
Can you learn?
00:37:45
Ken Freire
And I will say that like, that was probably one of my favorite chapters in your book, that whole play chapter.
00:37:50
Sam Jolman
Hmm.
00:37:51
Ken Freire
mean, there's a lot of guys that, by the way, I'm just going to a shameless plug on this. Sam's book, I'd recommend it, go read it. But it was one of my favorite books because I've read a lot of books on this topic.
00:38:01
Ken Freire
But just the angle you took on just playing and just having fun and just like all these different angles.
00:38:05
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:38:06
Ken Freire
I'm just sorry to interrupt you again, but it is fascinating. I would say this book is worth it for that chapter alone.
00:38:13
Sam Jolman
Oh, thank you.
00:38:14
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:38:14
Sam Jolman
That was a fun one write. I loved that chapter. And, you know, one of the things I say towards the end is even just cultivating healthy play in your life.
00:38:24
Sam Jolman
So when you're dating, you're One of the best things you can do to set up your sex life well, I think, is not just have good boundaries, but learn how to play well with the person you're dating. And that could be as simple as a card game, right? Or learning to dance.
00:38:42
Sam Jolman
Or, you know, I think of like just times I've been lost in play, right? Right? There's something about play that really sets the stage for healthy sexuality because sex is love at play, I would say.
00:38:58
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:38:59
Sam Jolman
And again, it's not the only place our love plays as a married couple, but it's one of them.
Sexuality as a Present, Intimate Experience
00:39:05
Ken Freire
Yeah. And I think, you know, as we wrap up here, one of my favorite parts that you said about play was that when you were a little kid and you were playing, you were just lost in time.
00:39:14
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:39:14
Ken Freire
And you just forget about what's going on because you're so living in the moment. And that's what sex is supposed to be about, right? You're in that moment with your spouse connected in this beautiful dance of intimacy.
00:39:23
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:39:28
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:39:28
Ken Freire
And I just remember that's what a good sexual ethic looked like.
00:39:28
Sam Jolman
Hmm.
00:39:31
Ken Freire
I remember thinking as a sexual man being like, oh, it's when I'm lost in the moment and just being present and enjoying life.
00:39:39
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:39:39
Ken Freire
And being who God created me to be, that's what a godly sexual man looks like. And I could use all of my desires to worship God and to help others.
00:39:45
Sam Jolman
Oh, that's so good.
00:39:49
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:39:50
Ken Freire
I love that chapter. I read it and I listened to it multiple times because it was just so much fun.
00:39:54
Sam Jolman
Oh, that's awesome.
00:39:55
Ken Freire
Sam, as we wrap up here, man, guys who are listening to this...
00:39:55
Sam Jolman
Thank you.
00:40:00
Ken Freire
What's the best way to get your book and also to just reach out to you if they're like, I love the way Sam's thinking and they want help from you.
00:40:08
Sam Jolman
Oh, I'd be so honored. You know, the book, you can buy wherever books are sold. my publisher is actually still offering a BOGO copy. So if you buy the audio book, the Kindle version, you can get a paperback copy free from my publisher. They're going to mail it to you.
00:40:25
Sam Jolman
can get that deal at my website. Just go to Sam Jolman, J O L M A N.com to get that. And I would love to connect to you. The place I'm most active right now is on Substack.
00:40:37
Sam Jolman
So I'm writing an ongoing conversations on sexuality, masculine sexuality, the Bible, the Christian story, how that all comes together over different topics. And then I do a regular Zoom call with readers.
00:40:52
Sam Jolman
And I'd love to have you guys jump into a conversation there with me.
00:40:57
Ken Freire
Awesome. Sam, you have been delight. I've loved our relationship and how it's been growing and hopefully can continue to grow.
00:41:04
Sam Jolman
Yes, I would love that too, Ken.
00:41:05
Sam Jolman
It's very mutual.
00:41:05
Ken Freire
Because what you're doing is huge, man. And I tell men, you know, lots of times we talk about overcoming sexual addiction overcoming shame. It's always about like where you're running from, right?
00:41:16
Ken Freire
Like you're trying to get rid of this thing, but not many people talk about what you're going towards.
00:41:16
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:41:20
Sam Jolman
Yes.
00:41:21
Ken Freire
And I think your book does an excellent job of focusing on like going towards a plan and a vision for what men should actually look like and how to walk out in their God-given giftings.
00:41:28
Sam Jolman
Yeah.
00:41:32
Ken Freire
So final encouragement that you could give to those who are listening to this, if they're just like, I get this, I need this, but I want to embrace my God-given sexuality without shame.
00:41:35
Sam Jolman
Yeah.
00:41:43
Ken Freire
What would you tell them?
00:41:44
Sam Jolman
You know, I would invite you to sit with evil hates your sexuality.
Transforming Shame into Growth
00:41:52
Sam Jolman
The realm of evil hates your sexuality.
00:41:54
Sam Jolman
The very first thing the realm of evil sought to attack with Adam and Eve is their sexuality through shame, their nakedness, right? The vulnerability of their nakedness and introduce shame.
00:42:07
Sam Jolman
So, you know, if what you're feeling is, Gosh, I've seen too much. I'm too far gone. don't even know how to begin feel anything like freedom here.
00:42:20
Sam Jolman
just want to invite you to be mad, really pissed off at some level at the realm of evil for holding sexuality in your life.
00:42:31
Sam Jolman
And I want to invite you to turn the tables on your shame. to begin to see shame as the primary weapon of evil, perpetuate cycles of sin in your life, that evil wants to keep you stuck in shame.
00:42:46
Sam Jolman
But your father, Jesus, wants to invite you to kindness and curiosity about your sexual journey, that his invitation is, you know, again, he is slow to anger rich in love.
00:43:03
Sam Jolman
And as Paul says in Romans 2, it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance. So want to invite you to begin to turn the tables on shame, to question it.
00:43:16
Sam Jolman
What is it that evil keeps accusing you of and whispering to you? Because you have a very kind and curious savior who wants to have a conversation with you about your sexuality.
00:43:29
Ken Freire
Sam, that's powerful. I love it. Thank you so much. And thank you for the ministry of what you're doing. Again, if you guys want to reach out to Sam, it's at samjolman.com. I'll make sure it's in the show notes so you guys can reach out and grab a copy of his book.
00:43:43
Ken Freire
Excellent book. I've enjoyed it thoroughly. Sam, thank you once again for being here and for all the men who are listening to this. Listen, I want you to stay focused, kill shame, stand strong, be on mission, go delight yourself in the Lord, and go enjoy beauty this week.
00:43:58
Ken Freire
Hope you guys have great day, and God bless.