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From Fetish to Freedom: Understanding and Transforming Your inner Child w/ Drew Boa
103 Plays1 year ago
In this transformative episode of Shame(less), host Ken Freire sits down with Drew Boa, founder of the Husband Material Academy and Podcast, to discuss the connection between sexual fantasies, childhood wounds, and addiction recovery. Drew shares his personal journey of breaking free from porn addiction, explains the importance of understanding triggers and fantasies, and offers practical advice for healing the inner child. Together, Ken and Drew unpack the power of vulnerability, self-compassion, and spiritual growth to help men overcome shame and live purposefully.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
- Drew’s personal story of overcoming porn addiction and discovering the deeper meaning behind his fantasies.
- How sexual triggers and fantasies are often connected to unresolved childhood wounds.
- Why self-compassion is more effective than the traditional “military mindset” of battling addiction.
- Practical steps for connecting with your inner child and reframing triggers as opportunities for healing.
- The difference between arousal and desire and how understanding this distinction fosters freedom.
- How opening up to others and being fully known can break the power of shame.
Important Links and Resources Mentioned:
- Husband Material Academy: Learn more about Drew’s program for men seeking sexual and emotional healing at HusbandMaterial.com.
- Porn Free Men’s Conference: Join Drew for a free live event on January 10–11, 2025. Details and registration available at thepornfreeman.com
- Jay Stringer’s Book “Unwanted”: A resource mentioned by Drew that explores the deeper meaning behind sexual fantasies and how to heal from unwanted behaviors.
- Shame(less) Podcast Website: BeShameless.org
Quotes to Remember:
- “Heal the boy to free the man.” – Drew Boa
- “Arousal is what your body craves; desire is what your heart truly longs for.” – Drew Boa
- “Any part of yourself that you hate will hide and retaliate.” – Drew Boa
- “Porn is a pacifier. One day, you’ll drop it because you’ve outgrown it.” – Drew Boa
Action Steps for Listeners:
- Reflect on your own triggers and consider what they might reveal about deeper unmet needs or wounds.
- Find a safe person or group to share your struggles and begin the journey of being fully known.
- Visit HusbandMaterial.com to learn about Drew’s resources and join the free Porn Free Men’s Conference in January 2025.
- Start practicing self-compassion by acknowledging your feelings and being present with your inner child.
Connect with Us:
- Drew Boa: Visit HusbandMaterial.com or follow him on social media.
- Ken Freire: Reach out through BeShameless.org for follow-up questions or support or Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/kenfreire
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Transcript
Introduction & Background
00:00:01
Ken Freire
Welcome back to another great episode of The Shameless Podcast. Today, I have with me Drew Boa. He is the founder of the Husband Material Podcast and Academy, and he's also the host of the Porn Free Mans Conference that's actually happening here in January 2025. Welcome, Drew, and that's correct, right? It's happening in January 2025.
00:00:25
Drew Boa
That's right, January 10th and 11th.
00:00:27
Ken Freire
I love it, man. It's a free conference. So already, we're just throwing out value for you at the beginning of the podcast that you should go check out that free conference.
Understanding Fetishes & Personal Stories
00:00:36
Ken Freire
But today, what we're going to talk about is how to understand fetishes and fantasies men have that entangle them in sexual addiction And Drew, you're going to be talking about your own story and how you've been helping men through this. But before we do that, I just want to jump, before we jump into the conversation, I want us just to get to know each other a little bit. And for my guests, or not my guests, but the listeners to get to know you a little bit, what's one quirky thing about you that you would want people to know?
00:01:08
Drew Boa
I love elephant seals.
00:01:11
Ken Freire
Okay.
00:01:11
Drew Boa
You know, those huge seals with the big noses and they fight each other on the beach. That's my favorite animal.
00:01:21
Ken Freire
That's awesome. but What turned you on to that animal being like, I love this animal out of everything that's out there.
00:01:29
Drew Boa
I was driving along the highway in California, right along the coast, and I saw these huge logs on the beach. They look like giant sausages. I was like, what are those? We pull off the highway come close to these creatures. And I was looking at the elephant seals, and I just thought they were big, lazy, ugly things. But then there was an interpreter at the beach.
00:01:59
Drew Boa
And he started telling us all about them and why they are the way they are. And my mind was blown. And actually, that's the exact same way I feel about my sexual fantasies. I used to think, I don't like this part of me. I i wish it didn't exist. But then now that I can interpret those fantasies,
00:02:21
Drew Boa
I see so much more that I can appreciate and it's given me a lot less self hatred, a lot more self acceptance.
00:02:30
Ken Freire
Dude, that's awesome. And I love how you just pivoted right into the conversation for today. You know, it's fascinating because earlier today I was talking to my kids about the Honey Badger. they're like, what's the honey badger?
00:02:42
Ken Freire
And I'm telling them these stories of like, they fight lions and vipers and all this stuff. And they're like, oh, so can they beat lions? I'm like, I don't know. And my son was like, I want to be a honey badger.
00:02:53
Ken Freire
was like, all of a sudden, this perspective of what this thing is capable of shifted.
00:02:57
Ken Freire
And that's what we're hopefully we'll talk a lot about today is that shift of like, when you have these mindset shifts, life can be transformative for you. So, before we dive into all the ways that you help men with their fetishes and fantasies, tell us a little bit about your story, man. Like, how did this come about with you and and struggle?
00:03:18
Drew Boa
Yeah.
Struggles with Pornography & Fetishes
00:03:19
Drew Boa
I was a kid who loved Jesus and hated porn. but I couldn't stop using it. And there was a very specific type of person that I would always want to look at. The images and videos all had the same theme. It was the same thing that felt irresistible. It felt magical to me that I always keep coming back to, but I didn't know why. I just thought, well, I guess maybe God made me this way, or it's just some random genetic flaw in me somehow.
00:03:55
Drew Boa
for some reason, have this fetish. And even after getting a year free from porn, I still relapsed. And it was because porn still had power over me. And this very particular type of porn had power. And so when I went on a deeper journey and began to understand where that came from,
00:04:21
Drew Boa
It became so much easier, porn lost its power, and I've been free for the last 10 years.
00:04:26
Ken Freire
Man, I'm amazed and thank God that you've been free for the last 10 years. But I know that when you've relapsed, that part must have felt completely destructive.
00:04:38
Ken Freire
I remember when I relapsed, it was just like, oh my gosh, what the heck? I've tried so hard. And it was around the one or two year marker. And I was like, Lord, am I just going to go back in a tailspin?
00:04:48
Drew Boa
Mm-hmm.
00:04:49
Ken Freire
And yeah.
00:04:50
Drew Boa
And have I really grown at all? Have you even healed me Lord because I feel like I'm back at the beginning?
00:04:57
Ken Freire
Yeah. Yeah. You forget about all the victories, all the small wins you had. It just kind of like you go back to square one, all the condemnation hits, the self hatred, the self-loathing.
00:05:05
Drew Boa
Yeah.
00:05:06
Ken Freire
And you're just like, what in the world happened?
00:05:08
Drew Boa
Yeah.
00:05:10
Ken Freire
So for you, Drew, you know, you talk about you had victory over porn in general, but there was this one fetish that you had. And I know a lot of guys, it's actually hard to talk about their fetishes, right?
00:05:22
Ken Freire
It's that one thing that they like to keep secret that they don't share because they're like, I don't know if people will get me or if people are going to make me feel a certain way or judged.
00:05:22
Drew Boa
Yeah.
00:05:32
Ken Freire
Can you just to help people feel a little bit free, share what were those fetishes that you struggled with?
00:05:38
Drew Boa
It was braces and orthodontics, which would often be found on teenage girls, but sometimes also adults. It could be an older woman with braces. When I got braces, I thought that would take away the fetish, but it actually only increased it. And I started to masturbate to myself and that was alarming and concerning to me. And I didn't know why. Now that I've begun to learn more about myself, it it just seems obvious that, well,
00:06:15
Drew Boa
Okay. Braces. Hmm. What's behind that? Where does that come from? Well, it goes back to middle school and what I experienced when I was 13 and 14 years old. And that was a time when I was surrounded by kids with braces going through puberty. And, and my first interactions with girls were all girls with braces. And there's more to it than that, but Wow. When I realized this is not the mature adult drew. It's the little boy in me that has this attraction and attachment. Um, it made a lot more sense. And I, all of a sudden had, had less shame because it's, it's something that I can look at with compassion.
00:07:15
Drew Boa
and say, yeah, it makes a lot of sense that this little boy was feeling those things. And it gives me something to do. Now I have a relationship with that little boy. And if I had to summarize my whole approach in one sentence, it would be this, heal the boy to free the man.
00:07:32
Ken Freire
And that is such a powerful statement. Heal the boy to free the man. And we'll do a deep dive on what you do and how you do that. let's go back a little bit because it's fascinating when you think about your fetish, right?
00:07:43
Ken Freire
When you think about braces, that's not something that like internet filters block or anything like that, right?
00:07:51
Drew Boa
Right.
00:07:51
Ken Freire
So you had almost unfettered access at that point to fall into your struggle, right?
00:07:58
Drew Boa
Yeah. I didn't need a porn website. I could use functional porn through social media and Google images. So porn blockers, internet filters, accountability software could never help me. Um,
00:08:19
Drew Boa
And so I needed a deeper approach.
Deeper Desires & Emotional Needs
00:08:23
Ken Freire
When you think about other men, because you work with a lot of men now in this ah ah arena and just helping them overcome pornography, what are some of the other fetishes that you see that people have that you're like, wow, it doesn't matter about internet blockers. It doesn't matter about these things that people struggle with.
00:08:44
Drew Boa
There are infinite sources of sexual arousal. Here are some of the common ones. Age, they're younger or older, gender, attracted to porn featuring men, attracted to porn featuring women, transsexual porn, lesbian porn, gay porn,
00:09:10
Drew Boa
diapers, feet,
00:09:13
Drew Boa
kissing, fight the new drug has research on all the different most popular types of porn, anime, porn, even non-human. Power and domination, either being more drawn to submission or drawn to bondage, domination. And there are endless combinations Some people are attracted to more like a group type of scenario or one-on-one. Some people want to be a participant in their fantasy and others just observe because that feels safer. But all of these things are significant and nobody's attracted to porn in general. There are always very peculiar particular things that turn us on and turn us off.
00:10:03
Ken Freire
Yeah. And those things end up being, I think you you said it earlier, or when we had talked initially, right? You have found that whatever that fetish is, or it could also be fantasies that you have, it's actually a window to something greater, a desire that you may have, or something pure within you that you're longing for. And what you've talked about, your inner child, right? Explain that a little bit more.
00:10:29
Drew Boa
Yeah.
00:10:31
Drew Boa
It's not the mature, logical adult you that's attracted to some of these things. It's more emotional, vulnerable, young part.
00:10:44
Drew Boa
Every trigger tells a story. And as we begin to understand those stories, we trace our triggers, they no longer become threats, they become opportunities for healing. And Ken, I was really encouraged in our first conversation to hear you share a little bit about what your triggers are and a fetish that you've dealt with in the past.
00:11:11
Ken Freire
Yeah. You know, it was interesting because when you and I talked, we were just talking about inner childhood and you actually said something that was profound. You were like, lots of times when you are a child, there's some security that you want. And if you can't find it, you try to find anything else to be secure.
00:11:27
Ken Freire
right? And you and I were talking and and was sharing my story ah ah of abuse and I don't know how or what you said, but I remember telling you, I'm like, oh my gosh, this explains so much why my fetish was anime, right? Or or like hentai is a proper vernacular, right? And I was just like,
00:11:46
Ken Freire
Oh my gosh, I like was so attracted to hentai and I was like, well, why was I so attracted to hentai? And it was because I remember the moments that I felt the safest was when I was a child, right? And I was... And back in the day when we were younger, right? Saturday morning cartoons was the jam, right? You put on WB11 or whatever it was and you're just watching or Cartoon Network, whatever, and you're just watching it. But those were the moments that I felt the safest.
00:12:15
Ken Freire
And when I think about Hentai, there is a correlation there of like, oh, that made me feel safe. I want to find something that makes me feel safe here too. And again, I've been healed from that for 15 years, but it wasn't until you and I were talking that I saw that connection and I'm like, oh, how did I never seen that before? And it's fascinating. So that's why I was like, Drew, we got to get you on the podcast. We got to talk about this stuff, right? So people could realize that there are things that happen to you in your childhood or even just the way you perceive your childhood, that frame
00:12:48
Ken Freire
why you want these things. So ka ka I gave my example. Can you give your example of like, you had braces and in middle school certain things started to happen. What was the things that started to happen in your own heart and mind that you were like, oh, I have this fantasy with braces.
00:13:05
Drew Boa
When I was in seventh grade, I was just getting to know girls for the first time. I attended an all-boys school and we were starting to have events and excursions with the all-girls school. And I was having my first time Just getting to know other girls and all these girls who I was getting to know had braces. Um, shortly after that we moved right as that was starting to blossom for me. And I moved from a place where I felt like I belonged, where I love my life to a place where I felt like a total stranger and I hated my life. And after we moved, I,
00:14:01
Drew Boa
became somewhat antisocial. And I spent a lot of time in my computer, i spent a lot of time playing video games. And that's really when I began to fantasize and masturbate every night. And I would be thinking about those specific girls from the place I moved from. And those images of these teenage girls with braces really burned into my brain.
00:14:26
Ken Freire
You know what's fascinating is I love how you were talking about like you felt belong. You know, like there was belonging there. But it was this height of like, I'm feeling belonging and you're probably going through puberty so you're seeing these girls and now you're like, imagine what it could be if I could find this connection with them.
00:14:33
Drew Boa
Yeah.
00:14:43
Drew Boa
Exactly.
00:14:45
Ken Freire
But then all that got ripped away.
00:14:45
Drew Boa
Yeah. Exactly. It got totally interrupted and cut off. And my fantasies were almost like trying to complete what was incomplete.
00:14:59
Drew Boa
Trying to finish what got started but never finished. And that's what happens in our sexual development. We can get stuck at a certain point. So even as I'm growing older, maybe I'm 17, maybe I'm 23, my fantasies are still stuck at that earlier age.
00:15:17
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:15:18
Drew Boa
And so, That's just one example. I think there's another part of it where I was not specifically fantasizing about female genitals because I grew up in purity culture and believed that nudity was evil.
00:15:38
Drew Boa
So I really had a negative view of women's bodies.
00:15:42
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:15:42
Drew Boa
And so I think that contributed to me being very drawn towards people's faces and mouths rather than the rest of their bodies.
00:15:51
Ken Freire
Got it. And so there's a lot of layers there that, and that's what you would say, like when you heal the inner child, heal the boy, right? And the man will be free, right? Like that concept of there's layers of multiple things that you have to heal.
00:16:03
Ken Freire
It's not just one thing, right?
00:16:05
Drew Boa
Yeah.
00:16:05
Ken Freire
It's not like just complete the fantasy. There's several things that have to be taken care of, right?
00:16:10
Drew Boa
Right. And so I'm not saying that the solution is to somehow live out your wildest fantasies, but find the desire that was underneath it.
00:16:20
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:16:21
Drew Boa
and fulfill that desire in a healthy, life-giving way. So for you, one of those desires was safety, to be safe, especially with your story of abuse.
00:16:28
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:16:31
Drew Boa
My story was one where I deeply desired to belong included, but I moved around so much growing up that that never happened. I never felt like I belonged anywhere.
00:16:42
Drew Boa
So that's what my healing really looks like is is is belonging. And then there are more layers. a sexologist named Michael Bader, who said that a sexual fantasy is like a microchip. It contains vast amounts of data in a very small space. And so it's almost like a window, as you said, into so many different things that contribute to those fantasies. So I would never say that somebody's experience caused a fantasy, but lots of different things contribute
00:17:20
Drew Boa
And as we understand those contributions, we see exactly where we need to heal.
00:17:25
Ken Freire
Yeah, and you know, as you think about that, the contribution, I think about my own life, right?
00:17:30
Drew Boa
Yeah.
00:17:31
Ken Freire
And going back to desires as well. Whenever I find myself struggling a lot more in that area of lust, right? Or like, oh my gosh, I desire someone else. I look back most of the time, like nine out of 10 times, it's because I desire to feel emotionally connected, seen, or heard.
00:17:51
Ken Freire
Right?
00:17:51
Drew Boa
Mm hmm.
00:17:52
Ken Freire
Again, and that goes back to my abuse, right? Where it's just like, I didn't feel seen, I didn't feel heard, I felt victimized. So what now I want to do is like, who's going to hear me? Who's going to listen to me?
00:18:02
Ken Freire
Who's going to be there for me? And most of my fantasies, and these are things I talked to my wife about on the regular, is like, oh, I felt this emotional connection with this individual. So now my fantasy world is thinking about this person. But that person can change next week. It's ultimately because of the desires that I've had in my heart that I want fulfilled.
00:18:24
Drew Boa
So this is a huge distinction we have to make. There is a difference between arousal and desire.
00:18:29
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:18:31
Drew Boa
Arousal is what my body craves. Desire is what my heart truly longs for.
00:18:38
Drew Boa
And those are two different things. They can be connected.
00:18:39
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:18:41
Drew Boa
But just because I'm aroused by something doesn't mean I desire it.
00:18:46
Drew Boa
But that arousal is connected to a deeper desire.
00:18:49
Drew Boa
Does that make sense?
00:18:50
Ken Freire
How do you help a guy distinguish those two? Because I think for most guys, they connect those. Those are interconnected, overlap. I think most of the time, people are going to hear them. They're like, what is he talking about? It's the same thing, right?
00:19:01
Drew Boa
Let me give you an example. One of the fantasies I've had is for oral sex, specifically from a woman with braces. And that's the arousal, okay? That's the surface level sexual symptom.
00:19:20
Drew Boa
That's what my body is telling me it wants me to do, to get oral sex or to look up images and videos of that, or just to masturbate to that. Those are the urges and attractions at the surface level. If we dig down to the soul level, we get to the desires. And for me, oral sex put me in a position of power.
00:19:45
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:19:47
Drew Boa
So underneath that is the teenage Drew who felt totally powerless.
00:19:55
Drew Boa
And Jay Stringer talks about this in his book Unwanted, which is a really great exploration of this.
00:19:58
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:20:01
Drew Boa
He says our fantasies include aspects of repetition and reversal. So this fantasy is repeating the story of my life with girls with braces, and yet it's also reversing that story because instead of powerless, I'm powerful. At least that's what is promising to my heart. That's what's going on at the soul level and why that arousal is there because it's connected to this desire to not be powerless. And when I was moving, when I was 13 years old, I was totally powerless. I had no voice. I had no choice. And when I went from this small all-boys school to this huge public school full of people who were
00:20:43
Drew Boa
like aliens to me, I felt like there was no way I could talk to girls. Like there was no way I could make friends.
00:20:50
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:20:53
Drew Boa
And that powerlessness and ultimately a feeling of futility and anger fueled that fantasy for being the one in control.
00:21:05
Ken Freire
Yeah. And the other caveat to that, too, is that anger fueled you to isolation, actually. Right? Because you isolated yourself, and then from isolation, then the fantasies were able to start having free reign.
00:21:17
Ken Freire
Because you felt like you didn't belong anywhere.
00:21:19
Drew Boa
Yes,
00:21:19
Ken Freire
Right? So you just... It was a cycle that you kept going through.
00:21:22
Drew Boa
it totally is. And one of the most important ways to break that cycle is to break the isolation and to tell someone to open up and be honest with a safe, trustworthy person about some of these details for your life.
00:21:42
Ken Freire
Yeah. How did you get to that place, Drew? Because, you know, it sounds like you grew up at a Christian home, you knew about Jesus, you loved Jesus, you had this struggle. But when did you get set free from this particular fetish and start to like share with people, hey, this is what's going on?
Bravery in Sharing Fetish Struggles
00:21:59
Drew Boa
It happened in stages. And one of the most important stages is when I got to college and there was a group of guys who wanted to pursue freedom together.
00:22:11
Drew Boa
A little bit of my story and I was a little bit vulnerable. And then one day I still remember the gut wrenching hesitation of like, okay, do I say it?
00:22:22
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:22:23
Drew Boa
And then I told the group,
00:22:26
Drew Boa
that all of my fantasies fixate on girls with braces. And they responded with nothing but love, acceptance, affirmation, friendship, hugs, tears, and I realized that my deepest, darkest secrets don't disqualify me from being loved.
00:22:53
Ken Freire
That's so powerful, man. You actually were able to now fully experience love because you were fully known.
00:22:59
Drew Boa
Bingo, that's it. That is one of the first steps toward being able to strip porn of its seductive power, being honest and open, bringing the darkness into the light. It's so cleansing. And these things that feel like they have a secret magical power, all of a sudden don't feel so scary anymore.
00:23:20
Ken Freire
Yeah. Yeah, I always think about it as like this big monster hidden in the darkness and then when you open... Like when there's light, it's like, oh, it's like a little ant, you know, like to squash it, right? For you, Drew, you know, one of the steps was being fully known, being fully loved. Walk us through some of the things that you have found to help men overcome they they their struggles with porn and then just understanding their fetishes and fantasies.
00:23:48
Drew Boa
We've talked about opening up to other people and connecting with others. Another important piece of this journey is connecting with yourself. and specifically connecting with the younger self. So here are some of the ways that I help guys do that. When you feel a ah sexual attraction or urge, that's not just a normal feeling, but it's very strong. It's disproportionate.
00:24:26
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:24:26
Drew Boa
It feels intolerable or irresistible when the feelings inside of you are bigger than the circumstances around you. It's reasonable to assume that they're connected to past experiences, not just the present. Something more going on. So we might ask the question, and if I'm not just feeling frustrated, but I'm feeling infuriated,
00:24:56
Drew Boa
When have I felt this way before? Hmm, I wonder. If I'm not just feeling lonely, but I'm feeling completely unreachable,
00:25:07
Drew Boa
oh, when have I felt that way before? On the other hand, if I'm not just feeling sexual pleasure, but I'm feeling like this magnetic pull, and how does that make me feel? Maybe with the type of person in the porn that you prefer, it makes you feel accepted.
00:25:23
Drew Boa
Okay, well then, when have I felt the opposite of that? When have I felt rejected?
00:25:28
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:25:29
Drew Boa
If this type of person makes me feel affirmed, well, when have I felt like a disappointment?
00:25:38
Drew Boa
And so we ask some of these questions and it's almost like a time machine. It takes you back to implicit memories, also known as body memories. And
00:25:51
Drew Boa
Oftentimes, underneath these big feelings, there's a little boy. Underneath these big monsters, there's a part of you that is screaming for attention.
00:26:05
Ken Freire
Yeah. You know, i I I remember there was this one time I was with a counselor, especially when I was in the midst of, like, heavy recognizing all the trauma that I went through, all that stuff. And he asked me this one question. I'll never forget it. He's like, Ken, when you look in the mirror, what do you see? And I was like, dude, I'm a man. I don't look in the mirror for longer than five seconds, you know, just to brush my teeth. He's like, no, no. I want you to look in the mirror, and what do you see?
00:26:32
Ken Freire
And I was like, that sounds super awkward, but I you did it anyways. And I remember looking in the mirror and seeing a scared Kenny. A scared little boy because of all the pain, all the trauma, and and fear that I had. And I was like, I see a scared person. And I didn't want to look in the mirror anymore. I was just like, I'm done. I'm out. I'm like, what kind of voodoo magic did you just pull off? I thought you were a Christian. right But somehow this thing brought this intense memory. And he's like, OK, here's what I want you to do.
00:27:01
Ken Freire
moving forward. I want you to look in the mirror every single time and there is a list of affirmations that I had to do. you I would say they're Christ centered affirmations, but affirmations that I was speaking life into that little boy.
00:27:14
Drew Boa
Yeah.
00:27:14
Ken Freire
And I was speaking identity into him and I remember looking at myself one day and I'm just like going through the list and I'm just like this... First, honestly, for everybody listening to, the first time I did this, it was so awkward. It was so weird. I thought that this was the most foolish thing I could have ever done. But I was like, I'm going to try it. Right? And I tried it and little by little, I just remember when it clicked. And I remember looking in the mirror and I didn't any longer see the seven-year-old boy. I saw a 19-year-old man in front of him and I'm like,
00:27:48
Ken Freire
This is who I am." And like something clicked in me and it was because what I felt like I was doing is like I was healing the inner child that you were talking about throughout those affirmations that I was walking through.
00:27:58
Drew Boa
Yeah.
00:28:00
Drew Boa
That's so beautiful. Sometimes you can also do that by finding a picture of yourself and spending some time with that picture.
00:28:07
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:28:11
Drew Boa
Find that fifth grade you or that second grade you, or maybe the time of your life when you first encounter pornography.
00:28:22
Drew Boa
Look into his eyes. Listen to his heart. What does he need? That's where we start.
00:28:31
Ken Freire
Drew, you use a lot of language and you said this earlier actually at the beginning of the episode where you want to help men with a lot of self-compassion. And a lot of things out there right now when it comes to ministry and helping men is kind of like the alpha male, like, let's go to war. Let's go fight. Like, let's kill sin. Which, and sometimes you need that, right? There's a spiritual battle that that all do face. I don't want to negate that. But your language seems very different. Walk us through that help us understand how do we
00:29:02
Ken Freire
For men who are listening to this, they're like, that seems so foreign to to that kind of language because they're more in the war mentality.
Approaches to Porn Addiction: Military vs. Self-Compassion
00:29:10
Drew Boa
Yeah, I call it the military mindset. So many men pursuing freedom from porn. are feeling frustrated and exhausted from fighting a constant battle against themselves, against their sexuality.
00:29:32
Drew Boa
The problem with the military mindset is that it ultimately leaves you in a ah ah battle that you can't win. So whenever we resist a thought or a feeling, we actually reinforce it. Research has shown that whatever you suppress will come out one way or another. In fact, by trying to get rid of sexual thoughts and feelings, we give them more power. Whenever you're fighting against something, you're giving it power. So when guys are trying to get free,
00:30:16
Drew Boa
They have the thought of maybe I should go watch porn. Immediately they want to either attack that thought, avoid it, or ignore it. Which, by the way, is a trauma reaction, fight, flight, or freeze. So if if you're stuck in that battle, you're still stuck in your trauma. What if instead of fight, flight, and freeze,
00:30:44
Drew Boa
you could face it, not having to avoid it forever, and not trying to annihilate it, but instead of battling yourself, befriending yourself, because there's a little boy in there who needs to be loved. If you're trying to fight a battle against him,
00:31:10
Drew Boa
like like It's going to be frustrating. It's going to be exhausting. Evil is real. We need to fight evil. In fact, I would say we need to fight for our sexuality. But a lot of us who grew up in purity culture especially it felt felt like we need to fight against our sexuality. Here's the truth. Any part of yourself that you hate will hide and retaliate.
00:31:34
Ken Freire
Ooh, that's good. that again. Any part that you hate.
00:31:38
Drew Boa
any part of yourself that you hate will hide and retaliate. And that is especially true for the sexual parts of us. So that's why we need to do this work of coming close to what's happening inside of us. Getting to know that little boy, giving him what he needs, and maybe,
00:32:08
Drew Boa
helping him grow up.
00:32:10
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:32:10
Drew Boa
That's a very different approach.
00:32:10
Ken Freire
How do you... It is a very different approach. And I think hopefully most men... You know, there's two things actually in this approach that I think is going to be the hardest thing to encounter, and I'm sure this is what you encounter, is most men...
00:32:24
Ken Freire
are lack the ability to want to go deep with their emotions because they're scared, right? Like, they're like, if I open up about this stuff, what's going to happen? So, most men only have like three emotions, right? Happiness, anger, sadness. That's all they know. They don't know the deep tentacles of those three. But the second one is really that like self-compassion for themselves as they walk through this. How do you Two-part question here, Drew. How do you help them to open up more, right? And then two, how do you bring Christ into it so that they can start to see, like, wow, Jesus actually can heal all these things?
00:33:05
Drew Boa
Well, you're so right that men are often emotionally immature, emotionally illiterate because we're taught that to be a man means to be less emotional. And oftentimes guys will apologize if they're feeling strong emotions. Like, I'm sorry that I'm crying right now.
00:33:25
Drew Boa
And so a huge part of what we do to to help guys feel more safe, to be emotional is just to go first and be vulnerable. like a guy witnesses somebody else being vulnerable, that makes it a lot safer. The word compassion is a compound word. Passion means suffering, like the passion of the Christ, and calm means with.
00:33:55
Drew Boa
Compassion means suffering with. So, self-compassion means suffering with myself, specifically my feelings, not trying to solve my feelings, not trying to fix my feelings, but just being with them in the pain, in the deep, dark cave that I sometimes feel like I'm in the middle of. Compassion means
00:34:25
Drew Boa
I'm right here. I'm not going anywhere. I'm with you. And I love you exactly as you are right now. I don't need you to change. I'm here. And that's how Jesus relates to us. That's what he came to earth to do, to suffer with us.
00:34:45
Ken Freire
You know, Drew, ah ah as I listen to you, one of the things that I think you are trying to communicate with people is that whenever there's been wounds that have occurred to you or things that have happened to you as a child, we try to disassociate with that person. And really, now you're saying, hey, let's come alongside and be with that person and then also see how Jesus was actually with us through the mire, through the muck, through the pain, that like throughout all of history, Jesus, that's what he came and did.
00:35:17
Drew Boa
Yeah.
00:35:20
Ken Freire
He came to redeem the lost, right? and He came to be with those who are hurting.
00:35:25
Ken Freire
He did not come to save those who are wealthy or those who are saved, right? Like he came for the poor, he came for the needy, he came for the lost. That's kind of what I'm hearing you say. Am I am right on that?
00:35:36
Drew Boa
Mostly I feel like that's what I'm saying because a lot of times we don't allow ourselves to feel
00:35:47
Drew Boa
We distract ourselves with our phones, or we say, oh, it was no big deal. Or we slap a spiritual truth on our suffering. Like, oh, you know, God works out all things together for good. And in doing that, we short circuit the process of healing. So a lot of guys will say, oh, I had a great childhood. My parents loved me. Everything was fine.
00:36:13
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:36:14
Drew Boa
Not realizing that trauma does not depend on the severity of your suffering.
00:36:20
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:36:21
Drew Boa
Trauma depends on whether or not it was processed. And if you were alone and powerless, then it was unprocessed. No matter how severe it was, no matter if you would call it a big trauma or a little trauma, if it didn't get processed, it is still stored within your body and it often will come out sexually.
00:36:41
Drew Boa
That's why we can't just skip over our suffering or spiritualize it. We have to get into it. Grief is not something you get over, it's something you get into fully. And Jesus is the one who can help us do that because he experienced death fully and resurrection.
Processing Trauma with Faith
00:37:00
Drew Boa
So as we choose to suffer choose to really allow ourselves to feel the suffering of our story, we're joining Jesus in his death so that we can experience his resurrection power.
00:37:13
Ken Freire
Drew, that's so good just to think about his death, burial, and resurrection. And that's how we have to process our grief.
00:37:19
Drew Boa
it.
00:37:20
Ken Freire
That's so good. I love it, man. Drew, as you think about helping more and more men, right? You got that free conference that's coming up January 10th, right?
00:37:30
Drew Boa
Yeah.
00:37:31
Ken Freire
I'm sure you guys will go deeper into these things. But how do you help men? I know that you have Husband Material Academy, but what kind of stuff happens there that maybe for some people who are listening might be like, man, I love what you're saying.
00:37:44
Ken Freire
I need help. I need to be pointed in the right direction.
Husband Material Academy & Resources
00:37:48
Drew Boa
The Academy walks you through the process of healing the boy step by step from the very beginning with support. So we have these coaching calls every week where men are sharing the specifics of their childhood experiences. They're sharing the specifics of their sexual fantasies.
00:38:08
Drew Boa
taking the risk to be known, allowing themselves to be loved, connecting the dots so that we get empowered, and then ultimately meeting those deeper needs and desires with God and with each other and within ourselves. We're becoming sexually and emotionally mature men. And and that's what this is about. It's not just about purity and the sense of trying to avoid negative things, it's about maturity, it's about growing up. And so we're doing that week in and week out in the academy and the free conference is gonna be a live experience where you're gonna have experts walking you through various aspects of this and I can't wait.
00:38:55
Ken Freire
That's awesome, man. Any final thoughts that you have for our listeners who might be like... And I think specifically where they might just feel stuck, like I resonate with what you're saying, I know I have inner child problem, like issues that I need to heal through, I have fetishes, I have fantasies, but man, I'm just scared. I'm stuck and and I don't know what to do. Just any final words of encouragement.
00:39:22
Drew Boa
The fact that you have listened to this entire episode is evidence of your bravery and the beauty and strength of your heart. Because you could have turned this off, you could have done something else, but instead you're here, choosing to ask these questions and be vulnerable. That says so much about who you are. You have not given up. There is hope.
00:39:50
Drew Boa
And if you're like me, probably tried a lot of things that haven't worked. You might even think that you've tried everything.
00:39:59
Drew Boa
And I'm asking you to consider if maybe, just maybe, there's a different way. And it's not based on fighting a battle. It's based on being loved.
00:40:14
Drew Boa
And you might think, oh yeah, I know God loves me, or you I know what love is all about. There's a difference between intellectually agreeing with love and experiencing love. And the more you experience it, the less power counterfeit versions of love will have. And eventually you'll get to the point where you don't need porn anymore.
00:40:43
Drew Boa
I like to say porn is a pacifier.
00:40:46
Ken Freire
ye
00:40:48
Drew Boa
One day you'll drop it because you've outgrown it.
00:40:55
Drew Boa
And I don't know when that will be for you, but I will be jumping up and down and celebrating with you every step of the way.
00:41:03
Ken Freire
Amen. I am the same way. It's a symptom. That's not the root issue. Let's solve the root issue. and and people are going to see a lot of freedom. And that's goal. That's why you have the husband with your academy. That's why I started the Shameless Podcast is because that's what I want for men, is that they would find that freedom, that relief, that love to experience where they'd be like, God, I know that you've created me for something far greater than this superficial mud pie like C.S. Lewis likes to talk about it, right? He's like, I'm made for so much more. And they start living that out.
00:41:39
Ken Freire
Drew, as we wrap up here, if people want to know more about what you do or just reach out to you, what's the best way?
00:41:47
Drew Boa
Go to husbandmaterial.com.
00:41:50
Ken Freire
Perfect. Simple. Husbandmaterial dot.com. I also put that in the show notes. Drew, thank you so much for being on the podcast and for doing this and for helping men learn to love themselves and be on mission. So, thank you, thank you, thank you. And for those of you who are listening, reach out to Drew. Reach out to myself if there's certain things that you want follow-up questions about. I'd be more than happy to answer and and help you. And so will Drew.
00:42:16
Ken Freire
That's what Jews have been doing for years now is helping men overcome this and be husband material. So with that, hope you guys have a great day and God bless.