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From Adultery to Redemption: A Powerful Testimony of God's Grace w/ Keith Johnson
145 Plays1 year ago
In this powerful and deeply honest episode of the Shame(less) Podcast, Ken sits down with Keith Johnson, a man who has experienced the devastating effects of sexual sin firsthand but has also seen the transformative power of God's grace. Keith shares his journey of being trapped in sexual sin for 35 years, his struggles with adultery both before and after coming to Christ, and how he ultimately found freedom. This conversation dives deep into the nature of shame, confession, and the hope that comes through true repentance and restoration.
Key Topics Covered:
- Keith’s background: A tumultuous family upbringing and early exposure to sexual sin.
- The devastating impact of sexual addiction and adultery on his life and marriage.
- The moment of salvation at 42 and how it initially felt like freedom.
- The relapse into sin and how God’s grace ultimately led to true, lasting transformation.
- The role of confession, repentance, and community in breaking free from sin.
- The importance of walking in true identity as a child of God rather than seeing oneself as an addict.
- The biblical perspective on shame, guilt, and condemnation.
- The structured 12-step program Keith developed to help men break free from sexual sin.
Notable Quotes:
- "There are two kinds of shame—one that leads you to Christ and another that keeps you in condemnation."
- "God’s arms are not too short to save. No matter how deep the sin, His grace is greater."
- "Confession isn’t about judgment. It’s about bringing things into the light so healing can happen."
- "We rejoice in our sufferings because suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character, and character produces hope."
Keith’s 12-Step Christ-Centered Recovery Approach:
- Admit powerlessness over sin.
- Recognize the need for a Savior.
- Fully surrender to God’s will.
- Conduct a fearless moral inventory.
- Confess sins openly.
- Become fully willing for God to remove defects.
- Ask God for transformation.
- Identify those harmed and seek to make amends.
- Actively seek reconciliation where possible.
- Continue self-examination and confession.
- Deepen relationship with God through prayer and Scripture.
- Share the message of freedom and disciple others.
Action Steps for Listeners:
- If you're struggling with sexual sin, don’t stay in isolation. Reach out for help.
- Confess and bring your struggles into the light. Healing begins with honesty.
- Renew your mind daily in the Word and embrace your identity as a redeemed child of God.
- Find a community or mentor who can walk with you through the process of restoration.
- Consider reaching out to Keith if you need guidance through the recovery journey.
How to Connect with Keith Johnson:
Email: kjohnson@livinglatechurch.com
Final Encouragement:
Your sin does not outpace the grace of God. No matter where you are in your journey, there is hope, freedom, and restoration in Jesus. Keep pursuing Him, kill shame, stand strong, and be on mission!
Closing Statement:
Thank you for tuning in to the Shame(less) Podcast. If this episode impacted you, share it with someone who needs hope. Until next time, stay strong in Christ!
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Transcript
Introduction and Family Background
00:00:01
Ken Freire
Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Shameless Podcast. Today, I have one of my favorite guests, I think, Keith Johnson. He is full of the spirit, very joyful, very exciting to talk to, and very passionate individual. I think we're going to have a ah lot lot of fun, but his story, there is a massive roller coaster that we're going to talk about.
00:00:26
Ken Freire
But Keith is married with three adult boys and that is because of God's grace.
00:00:32
Keith
Amen.
Struggle with Sin and Family Dynamics
00:00:32
Ken Freire
Today's topic, what we're going to talk about is actually adultery and how Keith, you had committed adultery several times. one time before coming to Jesus and one time shortly after that, but really ultimately like you are locked in the chains of sexual sin for 35 years.
00:00:39
Keith
Yeah.
00:00:48
Ken Freire
And today I hope to hear more of your story, how God broke you free from it and how you really started helping men recover since like 2020 and help them see the chains that really needed.
00:01:01
Ken Freire
So thank you for coming on the podcast, my friend.
00:01:03
Keith
Absolutely. Well, it's great to see you and talk to you guys. And I'm thankful to be part of your podcast and to be able to reach guys that are locked up or potentially locked up. And hopefully they have a see the story of hope and that, you know, the Holy Spirit can break us all free from it.
00:01:20
Keith
So really excited to be here with you and
00:01:20
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:01:22
Ken Freire
Yeah. And that's Keith, because you know sometimes people, you as we were talking before this and we did our pre-interview, there's like two streams of
00:01:23
Keith
yeah
00:01:31
Ken Freire
There's the guys who are currently committing adultery.
00:01:34
Keith
Yep.
00:01:34
Ken Freire
And then there's our guys who are walking that path and getting ready to commit adultery.
00:01:38
Keith
Yeah.
00:01:38
Ken Freire
They're flirting with it. They're either having an emotional affair, or they're having so many lustful thoughts that it could happen at any moment.
00:01:46
Keith
Absolutely.
00:01:46
Ken Freire
And I'm just excited because when I heard your story, how really you were so stuck in the muck, feeling like there was no way out, but man, God's grace and how powerful he was.
00:01:53
Keith
I really.
00:01:58
Keith
Amen. Amen.
00:01:59
Ken Freire
So let's jump into it, man. Tell me, just give everybody a few minutes of your background and what actually started to cause your struggle with lust and how did it manifest?
00:02:01
Keith
It's good.
00:02:11
Keith
Absolutely. So it goes back into like many of us family of origin, family dynamics, things like that. up in a pretty, I would say a hostile type environment. Hostile is a, it's a rough word, but it's true.
00:02:23
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:02:23
Keith
There's a lot of fighting, a lot of anger, a lot of, you know, arguments and things like that. So from an early on age, I learned. A couple unwritten rules, and I think that be a ah ah key for some folks for me, it was don't ask for anything, don't need anything, and don't say anything. That's how I kept peace in the house. But that was a seedbed for addiction. But at age nine, my stepbrother began sexually acting out with me and of course my three unwritten rules kept that secret and hidden but then I knew it was absolutely wrong but at the same time in some twisted way which sexual sin does it actually can feel good so there's creating a huge amount of confusion.
00:03:04
Keith
but that actually twisted and perverted all of my understanding of sex. And I was a young kid. I just didn't understand it to begin with. So from then on, I just started seeking things out. And by the age of 12 or 13, I was in a full blown addictive cycle. It ruled all of my thought patterns, all of my behavioral patterns and just finding and seeking things out.
00:03:23
Keith
And that varied and it escalated into my college years and into adulthood. And then obviously when I got married, I brought all of that with me. So in that my bride was aware of it and that caused a real gap between us. It really actually created a problem. And there's some things going on within like sexual inactivity.
00:03:47
Keith
which then I began using as a justification. So now I'm like, okay, this is wrong. So now I, I have a justification for fulfilling that need.
Adultery and Turning Points
00:03:57
Keith
most of this was pre-internet, or at least most of it was, you know, prior to, um, public using it in minor ways, but, that's what actually led to, you know, and when you're in these things, it start, it may start out with,
00:04:10
Keith
Poor masturbation, but it tends to grow with a need a perceived need again It's a lie of enemy but there's a need for more of that dopamine hit more of a thrill So it became a thrill-seeking thing as well Within the addiction and that led to that first instance of adultery eventually and so that happened you know of course again you're feeding one side of this that's just absolutely ugly and and and it's sinful and it's sin you know bible tells us that wages of sin is death and that's the road that i was on but then you know you also as a part of all of this you're just continually locked in guilt or guilt and shame
00:04:50
Keith
And that shame can hold you down. And all through this, of course, my unwritten rules were still applying to me. Don't say anything. Just keep it hidden. So now I've got a dual life. I've got a true addictive personality where I've got dual lives. So a lot of facades, a lot of masks, a lot of lying to cover all of this up. And I never really... understood it. I want to be clear that I was not born again through this period of time of my life. I was born again at 42. But this addiction was running all the way through my adult life. And even despite success in the corporate world and other things, this was still underlying and running and all of it.
00:05:30
Keith
Born again at 42, praise God for that. I was going through a divorce because of this was the main reason for that and I began seeking God.
00:05:37
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:05:39
Keith
I had somebody witnessing to me and finally surrendered at 42 and I actually felt like I was free. and I felt God did a miracle within me, which was amazing. But at the same time with that, I just kind of left most of this on confessed. And I think that's the bigger message that I have is through confession. The Bible tells us that confession, you God is faithful and just, then He will forgive us our sins, but then He goes further than that. He doesn't leave us in that, even He cleanses us his of all unrighteousness. And at the same time, Bible also tells us that it brings healing.
00:06:14
Keith
But so I left most of this unconfessed so when life heated up again stresses came in in in a second marriage I fell right back into that addictive cycle and I just kind of That idol crept back in my life But also God is faithful and He's just and He's also very kind. He brought me to a place where that was exposed in a fairly public way within my church leadership and directly to my wife. And at that moment I had a choice. Do I confess, repent, or do I run?
00:06:47
Keith
I just knew I had nowhere else to go. I was on the verge of losing everything. My marriage, my church, all of my friends, everything would have been swept away.
00:06:57
Keith
So where would I go?
00:06:58
Ken Freire
Wow.
00:06:58
Keith
I kind of felt like when Jesus asked the disciples, are you guys going to leave me too? And Peter just turned around and told him, I have you know we have nowhere else to go you have the words of life and and that was what it was and thankfully I had my best friend and church leader came and just met me gave me a big hug and told me he loved me and that he was going to work with me through this issue and that you know and that just gave me right in that moment a solid foundation from which to work and I just became a process of confession and that
00:07:29
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:07:31
Ken Freire
Yeah. So, so as I hear this, he gave you this process of foundation, like a foundational process, but there was still a lot to work through.
00:07:41
Keith
a ton.
00:07:41
Ken Freire
Right.
00:07:41
Keith
Yeah, this was just getting through those first moments of disclosure and first moments of discovery, you know, and and and you're literally, your life is blowing up and around you.
00:07:42
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:07:47
Ken Freire
Okay.
00:07:53
Keith
And it brings you to kind of like that Psalm 46 of where, you know, you know, the literally the mountains are quaking and falling into the ocean. I had nothing. I had no salad foundations, but I knew that I had somebody who was willing
00:08:02
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:08:06
Keith
to accept me in that moment and give me grace. And I knew that that was the love of Christ in the moment to me.
00:08:12
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:08:13
Keith
And I also felt like I've got nowhere to go. So I just started answering the questions and confessing this full body of sin. Most of it, I honestly couldn't even remember.
00:08:23
Keith
I just had to keep coming back to it and keep coming back to it. So it didn't last minutes or hours. It lasted days even months before everything started coming out.
00:08:35
Keith
And so coming back to that second period of adultery, you know, all of that shame and guilt, that was the first moment that I actually felt there might be something of life left. Because before
Healing and Confession
00:08:48
Keith
that, I had been feeling all along just broken and defective, especially being prior to being born again, when I was born again, I felt, okay, no, I can be free.
00:08:58
Keith
But as I came out of this moment, that that was the first time I actually felt like I can actually reach into this mire and mock and bring me out of it. so hope kind of began dwelling in now at the same time, they didn't just leave it there. I think, you know, the, the leaders actually wanted to bring more to me.
00:09:19
Ken Freire
Yeah. So as they were getting ready to bring more to you, that's what we'll discuss here in the latter half.
00:09:24
Keith
Yep.
00:09:25
Ken Freire
I want to dig into both these periods, right? Because one was before Christ and one was after Christ, right?
00:09:30
Keith
Yes.
00:09:30
Ken Freire
So it almost, I can imagine, be two different feelings of shame, right? One was just like the the internal before Christ like, Oh, I don't know. I shouldn't have done that, but okay, whatever.
00:09:41
Ken Freire
Like you justify it now being in Christ.
00:09:44
Ken Freire
You're like, Oh my gosh, the weight is even worse. Can feel worse. Let's talk about the, the, the first one.
00:09:47
Keith
Yeah.
00:09:48
Keith
Yeah.
00:09:51
Keith
Yep.
00:09:51
Ken Freire
What were the justifications you had in your mind that led you down this pathway saying this is okay.
00:09:58
Keith
Yeah, well, I never knew it was okay. I always knew it was wrong.
00:10:01
Ken Freire
Okay.
00:10:02
Keith
And so that's where that level of guilt and shame is always there.
00:10:05
Keith
And it would compound over time. Each time, you know, eventually the internet came out and I was, you know, it's lot of activity there. So I always knew that it was wrong. I always knew, and I always believed in God, but I just didn't have the conviction of sin.
00:10:19
Keith
At least have enough to do anything about it. So I just felt, I didn't have a choice. I felt like, I this was the way to survive kind of without dealing with all of the pain and without really comprehending anything I didn't understand the patterns I didn't understand how they started I didn't understand anything other than this was the one way that I actually felt pre like alive and somewhat fulfilled sexually.
00:10:47
Keith
The biggest justification was that things were not right with my wife and and she's not interested, I need to I need to fill that whole complete lie of the enemy and if I would have been able to at that point actually deal with some things and answer really hard questions, I could have potentially found something but ultimately, I just didn't.
00:10:55
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:11:10
Keith
It was just more shame and shame and shame.
00:11:12
Ken Freire
Yeah. At what point did that come out and your first wife was like, I'm done. I don't want to be a part of this.
00:11:19
Keith
Yeah, there were moments of discovery all along the way. And I think she had reached a point where there wasn't, you know, there just wasn't true intimacy. And then she actually ended up confiding in somebody else and they developed a relationship and she decided to leave the marriage. But I don't think any of that would have happened without the underlying issue that I was dealing with.
00:11:41
Ken Freire
Yeah. So what kind of, you know, when we talk about shame, shame can manifest itself in so many varied ways. How did shame manifest in you during that period where she's like, now I want to divorce you.
00:11:52
Ken Freire
Like there's this culmination of your sin coming up.
00:11:57
Keith
Yeah, it really brought me to a place of there has to be an answer and there has to be something better or what's the point. It wasn't suicidal but it was it just a point of absolute despair. was losing my marriage, I was losing being able to live with my children, I was losing all of that.
00:12:17
Keith
And I just had to come to a place where there has to be answers and there don't know what they are. And I i just started searching. And that's when my sister was kind enough to just start actually sharing the gospel with me and talking to me about Jesus. And that kind of gave me hope that there could potentially be something here.
00:12:36
Keith
At that point, it was all a mental exercise.
00:12:39
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:12:39
Keith
um um But I just could feel like, hey, there is a way to get free of these things potentially. I just don't know. And eventually, at the moment of salvation, I just could feel something that there is hope.
00:12:47
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:12:54
Ken Freire
Yeah, you know, I've never phrased it this way and and people may get really mad at me if I do after it comes out of my mouth, but it seemed like there was there's like a good shame and a bad shame and and for you in some ways that this was like really good shame because it would brought you to your knees and got you to a place to start asking God some really hard questions and and brought you to faith, right?
00:13:06
Keith
Yes.
00:13:13
Keith
Yes. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely right. and And shame is supposed to be working with guilt, right?
00:13:23
Keith
God designed us to feel shame, to point to guilt, which is more an objective term. It's a legal term, you're guilty, you're not guilty, right?
00:13:29
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:13:30
Keith
That's subjective. And so when that gets out of whack, and the guilt is never dealt with, the shame just starts getting, you bury yourself in it, you get locked in it, and that's when you start isolating, hiding, lying, you don't know what to do with it.
00:13:43
Keith
And it kind of oppresses you. When you're dealing with shame correctly, you can feel it and then you just have to examine, am I guilty or not? And if I am, okay, that's where confession and repentance comes in. I'm right before the Lord and I can get right with the brother or sister that I've harmed. And now I'm walking free with my head held high, knowing grace.
00:14:03
Keith
But if I don't do that, it still sits there on dealt with. And that's kind of what was happening. But yeah, it can actually it should point us into the point of, hey, there's some guilt here or at least ask the question, is there guilt here?
00:14:16
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:14:18
Keith
And if so, there's a right way to deal with that. That's why Jesus died on the cross. But without knowing that I was still kind of hung up in it. But I knew that there was something.
00:14:29
Ken Freire
Yeah. And that's where, you know, if if were to expand the shame aspect, right? It sounds like at the beginning, you felt the the the guilt and shame of it, right? That's the good shame. And then the bad shame, I would actually probably phrase it as condemnation, right?
00:14:41
Keith
Absolutely, I felt broken.
00:14:42
Ken Freire
Where there is no guilt.
00:14:44
Keith
Yes, you can't, you stop feeling guilt because it's just so unresolved and all you do for me, I felt absolutely broken and defective. I was beyond help. I couldn't figure out anything.
00:14:55
Keith
You know, along those years, yes, I had gone to some counseling. I hadn't tried any recovery programs, but it just all felt empty and I didn't get anywhere with it. So my only answer was I'm broken.
00:15:08
Keith
There's something actually wrong and defective here. And I don't know if it can be repaired is how I was really feeling. That was the oppressive way of shame. Yes, I can still function, but it just was not fruitful in any way.
00:15:16
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:15:22
Ken Freire
Yeah. So what was it that your sister communicated to you about the gospel that all of a sudden brought you just this like immense aha, like there's hope and freedom?
00:15:32
Keith
Yeah, wasn't one thing. It was a number of conversations reinforcing that she loved me number one, number two, that God loves me and Jesus died for all of this. And we started just pecking away at that. And in the meantime, she also handed me a ton of books, Bibles.
00:15:47
Keith
and started like, I know you want this to be a mental exercise. It really isn't, but there's gonna be, you have to do some exploration on your own to figure out where you're at to get to this point.
00:15:55
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:15:59
Keith
i I I finally got to a point of, God, if all of this is true, If all of this is real, I want to know you are real and I want to feel you move.
00:16:09
Keith
I want to, you know, it's almost like asking for a sign. Of course, Jesus speaks about those who ask for a sign, but it was my way of reaching for it.
00:16:14
Ken Freire
Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:17
Keith
So my prayer, I decided finally to go to church with her. Then we visited the current church that I'm at and the one I'm working for, walked in those doors and really quickly worship started and
00:16:30
Keith
everything the whole church vibrant worship the whole church is dancing singing and i just was unaccustomed to it but i'm like these people see something they know something they feel something and then all of a sudden the power went out there's no amps there's no there's no mics there's no screens there's nothing but the church kept worshiping and that's when i felt the spirit move and i'm like okay lord you actually are telling me you're showing me that you're real
00:16:55
Keith
okay now I've got to kind of start holding up my end of the bargain and then in between there was a prophetic word that came and somebody actually just shared the gospel saying I know somebody here is searching and now's the time to actually surrender and so I that's the moment that I just said okay this is it you've shown me lord I'm in I'm in
00:17:08
Ken Freire
Wow.
00:17:18
Ken Freire
It's so funny, you talked about that passage of like, hey, this wicked generation asked for a sign. But then you were genuinely asking for a sign, like you're exploring.
00:17:24
Keith
Yes.
00:17:27
Ken Freire
And there's like a dichotomy there, right? But he's like, I'm going to give it to you.
00:17:29
Keith
Yes.
00:17:30
Ken Freire
And he does.
00:17:31
Keith
Yes.
00:17:33
Ken Freire
Your life gets radically transformed. You feel like the guilt goes away.
00:17:35
Keith
Absolutely. Yes.
00:17:37
Ken Freire
Right. So walk us through like the first few months or maybe I don't know how long was it before you had that freedom and then you met your your second wife and started to feel the stress.
00:17:47
Keith
Yep.
00:17:48
Keith
Yes. Yeah. So there was a period of a couple of years or so where I was walking free and i I had disclosed some of these things. I've struggled with sexual sin. This was a part of the divorce. This was part of my history.
00:17:59
Keith
I never really got to brass tacks on it. And then obviously there's just an attitude of grace and love and acceptance in that. which is wonderful.
00:18:09
Keith
And I actually did feel free. I wasn't acting out. I wasn't really feeling super tempted either. I was really taken with Christ and just being a new creation, right?
00:18:22
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:18:22
Keith
And so there's that spiritual truth, the old is gone, the new has come. But the problem is I didn't take off the old man. and put on the new fully. I still held on to some of this stuff. So started dating my wife, we get married and we were just coming in and two adults trying to merge life together and there there's other issues that were happening and it created this environment of stress. I didn't know how to resolve the conflict well. I didn't know how to actually work through this well.
00:18:51
Keith
And, and so what ended up happening was it got to a place of, okay, but I need to feel, I need to, I need to medicate. And so i I ended ended up, it ended up just going back to the old coping mechanisms because I hadn't done the work and I hadn't gone through full confession. And so you just, and you don't start back from the beginning. You kind of.
00:19:12
Keith
Pick up where you left off in these things and so it just accelerated quickly But you know and then again now to talk about shame again It was heavier because I know being born again.
00:19:24
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:19:25
Keith
I know the truth now. I'm a still a young Christian I don't have much of this figured out yet, right?
00:19:28
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:19:30
Keith
But I know that I'm I am a new creation but yet I'm giving back now Romans 1 is true. God will give us over to the lusts of our heart without a repentant heart and without somebody who's willing to walk through confession and repentance and actually reach to him for his grace and forgiveness.
00:19:46
Keith
And so he did. He was true to his word. But he's also just a good shepherd who will leave the 99 and come find the one.
00:19:55
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:19:55
Keith
And he did. It was not an easy thing. And it wasn't like I saw the light and I came to confession. I was found out and I was disclosed.
Public Confession and Reconciliation
00:20:04
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:20:05
Keith
But that is actually the kindest thing that God could have ever done in my entire life.
00:20:08
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:20:09
Keith
He broke through and he did, he picked me up and he held me over his shoulder and he brought me back. And it was incredibly painful, incredibly embarrassing, but all that being said, that was the method that he used to break in to a complete degree, to push me into confession.
00:20:30
Keith
Didn't have a choice, confess or run, which one do you you want.
00:20:30
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:20:34
Keith
and, and, and it was just one of those things where, yep. Okay. I'm choosing life. I'm going to actually confess these things. I'm going to confront this thing. And I know I need more to actually break free.
00:20:46
Ken Freire
Yeah. When you started to confess, right? It all came out. It got like, you know, someone came to your pastors and your wife and like, hey, we did this thing.
00:20:50
Keith
Yeah.
00:20:55
Keith
Yep.
00:20:57
Ken Freire
I'm curious, what was the first thoughts that came to your mind?
00:21:01
Keith
My first thought was I'm lost. I've lost everything and I kind of want to just die. I really, I was felt physically ill and bankrupt again. And I didn't know where to go, but that's when, you know, I knew this was happening and I just reached out.
00:21:17
Keith
to one of the leaders and I just shared with him, hey, life is literally blowing up right now. And I don't know what to do. And he just said, we'll meet me in my office.
00:21:27
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:21:28
Keith
And so, yeah, I just I went.
00:21:28
Ken Freire
And first thing, you were just like, let's go.
00:21:32
Keith
I just I just let's go.
00:21:33
Ken Freire
Let's figure it out.
00:21:34
Keith
Yeah, and I didn't know what didn't know. I just kind of felt like, yep, they're going to be kind and generous, but they're probably going to tell me that I'm done in the church and that they're going to counsel her for divorce.
00:21:45
Keith
And, you know, biblically, she had all the grounds in the world for it. But it was also a time of they knew me in need and they started helping me.
00:21:57
Keith
And then that was kind of like, we just want confession. We just want to understand this entire situation so we can give counsel to both of you and we can help you both through it.
00:22:05
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:22:07
Keith
And so there wasn't Praise God, whatever judgments they had in their hearts and minds, it was just God.
00:22:15
Ken Freire
Yeah. is huge, Keith, because I think most people, when they hear confession, have you said that multiple times now, like, confess, confess? And we'll dig deeper of what that should look like here in a second. But what they did was they wanted you to confess so that once it's in the light, they knew how to help you not to judge you.
00:22:24
Keith
yeah
00:22:32
Keith
That's exactly right. That is exactly right.
00:22:33
Ken Freire
That's huge.
00:22:35
Keith
It's massive. and And I would pray that church leaders would understand. And they they I think they really do. They've been trained by it, but they also are filled with the Holy Spirit to understand confession comes from a place of pain.
00:22:49
Keith
It comes from a place of sin. And there's one way to restore it. And that's to actually bring it into the light with grace. and yes church discipline can be real and it should be real and it also there's we serve a holy god who cannot abide sin and yet so he loved us so much right that was Jesus humbled himself became man and died for it all and so that's real or not and I just pray that yes leaders would have that sense of grace without judgment judgment is proper we're called to actually judge right and wrong
00:23:24
Keith
you know, sin, all of those things. And so they have to do that. But if you can do it with love and grace, you can propel somebody into restoration. You can actually bring somebody and restore them. And the Bible calls us that, right? Speak gently, go to a brother and help him in truth and love, bring him around and and facilitate that confession and facilitate that repentance. And that's exactly what happened.
00:23:51
Ken Freire
Okay, so you started confessing, you started repenting, you started to feel free. I'm curious, how did your wife respond to all this? Because she had all grounds to leave you, but you guys are still married.
00:24:03
Keith
Absolutely.
00:24:04
Ken Freire
So we kind of know the future, but like during that moment you didn't.
00:24:04
Keith
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. She obviously you go through the range of emotions of betrayal, anger, just pain, sorrow, sadness, feeling of absolute loss, which is, which is right in it and all normal.
00:24:21
Keith
But she, she took that breath, measured it out, weighed it out. And we worked together for a period of time through my ultimate confession of infidelity and then there was a point of time where it's like, okay, I just need to know that that's true. And if so, then we need to take some other steps. And so she, along with council of church leaders, and I was involved with this, we separated for six months, or yeah, without contact, six months. So no calls, no texts, no emails, no nothing directly. Anything that had to be dealt with was through church leaders. But it gave us both time and space for her to be praying and seeking God.
00:24:59
Keith
What do you have for me? And do I have faith for this or not? And she had all the grounds to divorce and I knew that. And so for me, but for me, I had to end all outcome-based thinking of worrying about that. I had to put everything on the altar. Talk to Abraham and Isaac here. I had to put my marriage on the altar and be willing.
00:25:22
Keith
I had to sacrifice it. I had to because I knew first and foremost, I needed to get right with the Lord and I needed character to rebuild. I needed to be restored first as as just a child of God second as a husband, if that was his will. So we did embark on a six month separation, incredibly hard and painful. And we both felt it. And as we came back together, it was ah ah it was a kind of like
00:25:50
Keith
unknowns. And she just, you know, God worked through her a lot, too, in that whole period of time. And he basically basically told me, I don't have faith for divorce, but I'm not sure I have faith for marriage, we're just going to play this out and see how it goes.
00:26:05
Ken Freire
Hmm So so when you heard that when she was like now you need to prove it She knew you weren't gonna get divorced.
00:26:05
Keith
And kind of like a proof is going to be in the pudding type of thing, you know, from a practical standpoint. So that's how we came back together and have kind of walked along.
00:26:21
Ken Freire
But like you're like, oh gosh, how did you?
00:26:23
Keith
Not yet, anyway.
00:26:24
Ken Freire
Yeah, not yet. Anyway, right? You're like, okay.
00:26:26
Ken Freire
I got I got a day. I got like every day by day What changed in your heart or how did you start to like fight for the marriage?
00:26:28
Keith
Yep.
00:26:34
Keith
Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting, Ken, because I think all along, like early on, I got into therapy, I got into recovery all through this process. So through those whole many months, I still had to have a non outcome-based thinking. My only outcome-based thinking was I need to really walk day by day, free of sexual sin and deal with these things rightly. and And I knew like, if I did that day after day, I don't have to worry about months or years here. I need to worry about today and I need to worry about today only. And if I do that enough times in a row, God can work and rebuild trust. He can rebuild the marriage and he can actually not just rebuild it, but he can reconstruct it.
00:27:22
Keith
in a right way that is much better than anything we would have had prior.
00:27:28
Ken Freire
Yeah. So you started to... I love how you talked about this. It's not out-based, you know, thinking or outcome-based thinking, but like it was really just a process. Like, let me walk through this process.
00:27:38
Ken Freire
So walk people through what was the initial process. First confession, right?
00:27:42
Keith
First confession, yep, an ongoing confession. And then it was therapy. So I had to understand, you know, therapy is great to help you understand something, but it doesn't quite fix it.
00:27:54
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:27:54
Keith
It's not going to resolve things. The only time that I found resolution is in the Word of God and God himself. Like he brings healing and he brings restoration but I needed to understand it because I still was feeling defective like there's still something wrong with me so the therapy helped me sort out a number of things including my timeline what was the genesis of all this what's what's actually happening within my behavior patterns within my thought patterns
00:28:07
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:28:18
Keith
and physiologically even, so that was really helpful. The other thing though at the same time was, you know, church leaders referred me to a Christian counselor who also said, okay, in order to work through this, you're going to get into 12-step recovery programs, you're going to get into at least one of them, if not two of them, and you're going to go to as many meetings as you possibly can.
00:28:37
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:28:38
Keith
This isn't a request. This is what's going to be required. And I said, okay, that's fine. and because I knew he just, that was the best for me. So I started in recovery world as well. So I, I, I entered in two groups and I would go ultimately in the very beginning, I would go to at least two to three a week, through the period of separation, it jumped up to like three or four or five a week, whenever.
00:29:02
Keith
And the closest ones were like 45 minutes to an hour away. This wasn't extremely convenient, but it was just like, hey, this is what I needed. So this is 12 steps. As I looked at it and I understand them is the gospel veiled. I'm a sinner. I need a savior. I surrender. And then I start working through the body of sin through full confession. And then I started looking at my character and I start working on these things. And then I start actually making wrongs right. And then I start sharing my message.
00:29:30
Keith
And so I just went all in. I worked extremely hard through the recovery process. I had great people around me the counseling all along. It was like God was hemming me in from all angles. He just was providing me support through leaders. He was providing me support through counseling and through the recovery programs.
00:29:48
Ken Freire
Yeah. So, so how did, you know, going back to the therapy part, cause we're going to talk about the 12 steps here in in just a second, but going back to the therapy, one of the things that I recall you and I talking about was this understanding of the Genesis and then, you know, your brother, your stepbrother starting the Genesis of it.
00:29:51
Keith
Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:05
Ken Freire
How did you handle that and process that? Especially like, do you have a relationship with, with him now? Like what happened there?
00:30:12
Keith
Yeah. Yeah, good question. I mean, at first, I was really because I needed to really closely and deeply analyze timelines because I had everything out of place.
00:30:23
Keith
I didn't i I think it was just repressed.
00:30:25
Keith
I didn't really want to go back there. when I finally figured it out, it was this aha moment. And of course, anger comes, you know, and and there's this anger.
00:30:35
Keith
But I know roots of bitterness is what is going to feed this thing as well. So I had to work.
00:30:39
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:30:41
Keith
toward basically forgiveness. True and absolute forgiveness. And I spent a lot of time working on this and I was just praying about it. And God just showed me. He just asked me a simple question. How old was he? And of course, I'm in a victim perspective, right? And I'm thinking, well, i I was nine. I was a little kid. And when he asked me that, I'm like, he was 10.
00:31:03
Keith
Okay, and then he said, yeah, he was a kid in the same family situations that you were actually even a little worse. What do you expect? how are you really going to hold this against somebody like that or do you or can you know and you look at the cross and the forgiveness that i'm affording you how can you not actually be of an empty vessel and pour that forward and it broke me in it because i realized that he's faced the exact same things i did and had had no resources and so
00:31:36
Keith
It just kind of overwhelmed me in the moment. And now I have, let's just say, I mean, I can, I'm fine with him. I don't have any problems really with him in my heart at all.
00:31:46
Keith
We don't see each other very often at all. I don't communicate very, very much. but he is a critical part of my story.
00:31:55
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:31:55
Keith
And I just, I love him because he's a critical part of my story and he's my stepbrother. And so I don't really hold anything against him at all.
00:32:03
Ken Freire
Yeah. You know, it's fascinating to to hear that because I had a similar situation. I don't know if you remember I was talking like where I was abused and I remember God doing something very similar where I was so mad and I was like, he was like, you need to forgive, you need to forgive.
00:32:14
Keith
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
00:32:19
Ken Freire
And I was like, I will not. And I'm like, I'm like fighting him, you know, in my dorm room. I'm like, I will die before I forgive.
00:32:26
Keith
Yes. It's a process, isn't it?
00:32:28
Ken Freire
And it was a massive process. And even my forgiveness story, I should actually record that as a podcast episode, like what is forgiveness? But I remember going and be like, Lord, I just pray right now for this individual that they would get hit by a bus and see your
00:32:36
Keith
Yeah.
00:32:42
Ken Freire
was just like, that was my view of forgiveness.
00:32:46
Ken Freire
But then I just remember God was like, look at all your sin and how I died on the cross for it. If I could die for all your sin,
00:32:55
Keith
yeah
00:32:55
Ken Freire
I could also die for his sin.
00:32:55
Keith
Yep.
00:32:57
Ken Freire
And it was like the first time I just looked at it and say, man, if he truly is God and he truly did die for sin, it's not like there's certain sins that are out of the grace of God.
00:32:58
Keith
Yep.
00:33:09
Keith
Exactly.
00:33:10
Ken Freire
And I was like, okay, Lord, I had like, I forgive. And it took, ah ah it was months and months, but of I have the same feeling of like complete empathy of like, this person was not a believer.
00:33:18
Keith
Yes.
00:33:19
Ken Freire
They were stuck in the stuckin the same situations. And he was just like, God, how do you like come reveal yourself to this individual and save this individual, bring hope, bring salvation, right?
00:33:31
Keith
Yes.
00:33:32
Ken Freire
Because they're just as lost.
00:33:32
Keith
Absolutely. Yep. Exactly.
00:33:35
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:33:35
Keith
Exactly.
00:33:36
Ken Freire
And and and I'll add this as a caveat for those who are listening to this, by no means are Keith and I saying that like, we're just letting it be permissive, like it's okay or sexual abuse is okay.
00:33:47
Ken Freire
No, no, it like, if there are judicial processes that need to go through and there's stuff that needs to happen, like take action. But from my internal heart perspective, it's to be free from this.
00:33:56
Keith
Yeah.
00:33:59
Keith
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:02
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:34:02
Keith
Absolutely.
00:34:03
Keith
Yeah.
00:34:03
Ken Freire
So, Keith, you know, you started getting healed, you started forgiving, then 2020 comes around.
00:34:07
Ken Freire
You start meeting with people one-on-one,
Overcoming Addiction through Faith and Community
00:34:10
Ken Freire
right?
00:34:10
Ken Freire
And getting help with them. And then now you've kind of built your own 12-step program because you realize that there are some things that were teaching that you're like, that's not fully in the Word. And you kind of fleshed out something.
00:34:21
Ken Freire
So walk us through it very quickly. This is more like high level for people. And if they want help, they could come reach out to you.
00:34:25
Keith
Absolutely.
00:34:28
Ken Freire
But like, walk us through the 12 steps.
00:34:28
Keith
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, as I mentioned, 12 steps to me was the gospel veiled, and for reason, right?
00:34:35
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:34:36
Keith
It's watered down, it's worldwide, it's not specific to any religion, it's proven millions and millions of recovered people from it in all kinds of addictions, right?
00:34:42
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:34:44
Keith
But what I loved about it, first of all, was that it was very action-oriented, and it was very much, I have to own my own sin, I have to actually share it, I have to actually walk in the light.
00:34:55
Keith
And in doing so, this also is a practical framework for me to to to change behaviors, learn how to fight, and learn how to actually abstain from sin, and let God actually change the character defects, the underlying issues. Sexual sin is not just choosing sin for a sin's sake. It's actually, there's something that's propelling us forward. There's underlying issues and addictive processes.
00:35:18
Keith
It's understanding those, dealing with them, and walking day by sooner or later those things stop happening. Now this is again where we can rejoice in our sufferings, right?
00:35:27
Keith
Romans 5, we rejoice in our sufferings, right?
00:35:28
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:35:30
Keith
They produce endurance or perseverance, which leads to character, which brings hope. All of that's true, but you have to actually persevere day by day. And so I noticed in the secular world, most recovery programs will say once an addict, always an addict, and you got to go to meetings forever. and I just didn't truly believe that I believe in the redemptive power of Christ. So I wanted something with Jesus at the center. And I've looked at a bunch of other programs and Some of them were very good and and I'm not an inventor. I'm kind of more of a somebody who brings things together. So I took some of the best parts of a lot of different programs and then I just applied Jesus at the center of it all based on scripture and based on my testimony and seeing God move in power and came up with an alternative view of 12 steps.
00:36:17
Keith
and I had a brother reach out and again I wasn't really actively working it because I didn't know where the church would be in terms of faith of actually doing anything in the moment but a guy reached out he knew my story and he just said hey can we start working this I know you've worked them we've talked and I started doing it too but I just need I need a sponsor can you do that and I'm like absolutely and he started seeing breaking chains there and then
00:36:40
Keith
The church reached out out of the blue and said, Hey, we're working with something in men's ministries. We want to have some focus on purity.
00:36:45
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:36:46
Keith
Would you be willing to be a part of that? And of course I'm like, absolutely. And they said, well, would you be willing to share your story? And that was another moment of time of like. Yes, because we overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony.
00:36:59
Keith
And if God's brought me through all of this, I want it to be for power and I want it to be for use of others.
00:36:59
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:37:02
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:37:04
Keith
I want others to break free. And so I shared my story and we started working and I actually compiled this 12 step program and I ended up at one, you know, I've got, I think 11 guys in it currently at a height of 14, but I've seen marriages restored.
00:37:20
Keith
I've seen people break free. I've seen God work in amazing ways. that is absolutely incredible. So it's not me alone, you know, I'm not unique here, but it's somebody who's willing to stand up and stand and speak and say, hey, there is hope here.
00:37:28
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:37:36
Keith
It can look absolutely hopeless and broken, but all things are possible through God. And he will strengthen, he promises it will never leave us, never forsake us, but he will help us strengthen us and hold us up in his righteous right hand.
00:37:49
Keith
And all we have to do is just reach to him for it, participate with him, and he'll do the work.
00:37:55
Ken Freire
Yeah. Man, Keith, you know, and this is where you and I were talking. We're like, we could go for hours on this because it's so important, right?
00:38:00
Keith
Exactly.
00:38:01
Ken Freire
Like the step one is gospel veiled, right?
00:38:02
Keith
It is.
00:38:03
Ken Freire
But then needing him.
00:38:04
Keith
Yep.
00:38:04
Ken Freire
And I love how you're like, we're not addicts. And I think this is where you and I were like going back and forth because it's like, no, we're actually new creations. Like standing in our identity in Christ is the most foundational and important thing to walk in freedom.
00:38:12
Keith
That's right.
00:38:14
Keith
That's right.
00:38:18
Ken Freire
Like if you don't see yourself as a beloved child of God who's pure and blameless, you're always going to fall back.
00:38:18
Keith
Absolutely.
00:38:23
Keith
That's right.
00:38:25
Ken Freire
Right.
00:38:25
Keith
Absolutely.
00:38:26
Ken Freire
Uh, and that's part of the renewing of the
00:38:26
Keith
Absolutely.
00:38:27
Ken Freire
And there's a whole bunch of neuroscience that we could talk about, but I love how the Bible always talks about it.
00:38:30
Keith
Yep.
00:38:32
Ken Freire
Like renew your mind.
00:38:32
Keith
It does.
00:38:33
Ken Freire
What do you renew it with? You're a son of God, the word of God.
00:38:35
Keith
The word of God. Yeah, that's right.
00:38:37
Ken Freire
Right.
00:38:38
Keith
Yes.
00:38:39
Ken Freire
you know, for, for you, Keith, I don't know if it's possible, but can you walk us through the 12 steps really fast? Like if you know, then know them titles of them.
00:38:48
Keith
Yeah, yeah, I've rewritten them a little bit, but one is admitting
00:38:50
Ken Freire
Sure.
00:38:52
Keith
So you admit your powerlessness. And step two is you need a higher power. That's what the secular world will say. I need a savior is what I say.
00:38:59
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:38:59
Keith
I need i to recognize the Lord as my savior. The third one is surrender. I'm fully surrendering my will my way. to the way, the will of the word of God. And by step four, I'm going to do a fearless searching inventory of all of the things that I've done.
00:39:12
Keith
And so then I'm putting, I'm creating this list. My whole body of sin is in front of me. And I need to actually step five is confessing that and sharing that list.
00:39:20
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:39:20
Keith
So now I'm working into confession right away. Step six is, are you becoming completely willing to have God remove your character defects. Well, the reality is those defects were the coping mechanisms and the things that you've relied on for so whatever long period of time, are you willing to have them remove it?
00:39:37
Keith
And if so, then step seven is actually humbly asking him to remove those character defects.
00:39:42
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:39:42
Keith
And number eight is now I'm starting to, okay, I'm starting to break all that shame, but i I've done a lot of harm. I need to actually recognize how who did I harm in what ways?
00:39:48
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:39:51
Keith
Step nine is to ask for amends for those things. It's making amends, which is a term that means making it right. It's not about getting forgiveness. It's actually making a wrong right. Now there's a caveat in there, a lot of harms yourself or others.
00:40:04
Keith
That's an important caveat because you don't want to recreate problems or harm.
00:40:05
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:40:08
Keith
And then step 10 is actually taking inventories. It's understanding what am I thinking, feeling, doing in this moment, and how is that um um impacting me? And then step 11, right? Increase your conscious contact with God. I need to actually have intimacy with the Lord to walk this out on an ongoing basis. And step 12 is just sharing the story. So now I'm actually leading others through it, sponsoring people. I'm leading f other efforts. And so it's really kind of taking hold of everything that I just went through.
00:40:36
Keith
and and And in this process, you take off the old and you put on the new. Like you talked about, identity has to be extremely strong. In fact, I've written a step zero and I've written a step one half. And the step zero is let's do triage and stop the bleeding, put in some boundaries, barriers, and tall walls.
00:40:51
Keith
Let's stop the behavior.
00:40:51
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:40:52
Keith
Step one half is I need to understand my identity. And then I start building from there.
00:40:55
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:40:57
Keith
So it's really a journey. It's a practical framework for us. Because if we think about this, if we're in a hopeless situation feeling broken and defective, it's not like I'm just going to say, well, I'm going to get better tomorrow.
00:41:08
Keith
I need a way to actually building block method of of working through Getting rid of those addictive behaviors, but understanding what's underneath them dealing with them on an ongoing basis ongoing Confession and then trying to you know, and as you go through all of that you will break these patterns and it's incredible see but the beautiful part about this is and this is one thing that I It was just revelation to me as I walk through it But I see it in every guy that I work through this broken free.
00:41:27
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:41:39
Keith
It's not just sexual sin. What you're dealing with, what you're learning to deal with is sin in and of itself.
00:41:41
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:41:45
Keith
And as we build that spiritual character and we truly become disciples, followers of Jesus, we learn to obey, it affects every sin pattern. It affects every aspect of life. I'll become a better husband, I'll become a better father, I'll become a better employee, I'll become a better friend, and I will learn how to serve the Lord in an amazing way that I've never known before.
00:42:05
Keith
And so that's the real trick
00:42:05
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:42:07
Keith
and And it's all done by God's grace, which is the power for us to be transformed. And we you know we can't do it on our own, otherwise we would have, right?
00:42:17
Keith
But we can do it with Him, and we cannot do it alone without fellowship. We need others around us that we can actually share real things and walk through them well.
00:42:29
Ken Freire
Yeah, Keith, man, is so empowering. And I think, if anything, I want people to walk away knowing the hope that they have in God and how you're just saying, like, we can't do it on our own.
00:42:36
Keith
Yes, absolutely. Nope.
00:42:40
Ken Freire
God is the one who transforms us. And now he's given us the tools to be able to actually keep that transformation going.
00:42:43
Keith
Yep.
00:42:47
Keith
Absolutely. Yep.
00:42:48
Ken Freire
So, Keith, man, as we walk through this process and and wrap up, there might be a guy right now who is listening to this and they're like, oh my gosh,
00:42:49
Keith
Yeah.
00:42:58
Ken Freire
I want what Keith has. My marriage is in shambles. I know I'm going down the wrong path.
00:43:04
Keith
Yep.
00:43:04
Ken Freire
What's one thing that you could just empower him with him today that he can do so that he could feel the same freedom you felt?
00:43:12
Keith
Yeah, I think the thing is, is that God's arms are not shortened. He can reach into any situation, but we have to turn to him. We have to bring it out into the light. And even if it looks like it's going to cost you everything, that's a lie of the enemy. Don't let him win that battle. You just have to understand there's consequences to say yes, but there's freedom through confession. There's freedom through repentance and there's freedom in actually partnering with him in these things.
00:43:40
Keith
So it doesn't matter how far you've gone, it doesn't matter what you've done, it doesn't matter how many millions of times you've done it, the power of God is just a heartbeat away. It's a confession, it's just a bending of the knee and a confession with our mouth.
00:43:55
Keith
And it's there. And I know there can be a lot of stigma about recovery programs and 12 steps and stuff, but all that to be said, the power of God is in it.
00:44:04
Keith
But ultimately we have to reach to Him first.
00:44:07
Keith
And that forgiveness of sins is real, but the healing is real as well.
Reaching Out for Help
00:44:14
Ken Freire
Yeah. Awesome. Keith, thank you so much, man. This has been amazing. I walked away the first time, and now, again, the second time, being like, yeah, it's possible. Like, I'm just fired up, right?
00:44:25
Keith
Yeah, yes.
00:44:25
Ken Freire
Because men can really find the freedom and, like, excited. So, for men are hearing this and they're like, I need help, Keith.
00:44:30
Keith
Absolutely.
00:44:34
Keith
Yep.
00:44:35
Ken Freire
What's the...
00:44:35
Keith
Yeah.
00:44:35
Ken Freire
And if you have time and all that stuff, what's the best way to reach out to you so that they can get to know you more and and and more about what you do?
00:44:43
Keith
Yeah, absolutely. The best way, honestly, is through email, just because I won't lose track of it.
00:44:46
Ken Freire
Yep.
00:44:47
Keith
And, you know, I can, I can, I can get back to people as they can, and I can, I can walk through some things and, and, and actually, you know, if nothing else, impart hope. But that's probably the best way to do it.
00:44:58
Keith
K Johnson at livinglatechurch.com. It's the easiest, fastest, and most available way.
00:45:03
Ken Freire
Awesome. Keith, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate this. And for those of you who are listening, I just want you to know how much Keith... You know, we've been talking here for 40 plus minutes, but like...
00:45:17
Ken Freire
And it's a roller coaster ride. That's 55 years.
00:45:22
Ken Freire
of this roller coaster. And if you just met him the way I've met him the fast few times, he's full of joy. He's full of peace. He's very passionate. Like, Keith, you are so passionate about freedom and hope. Like, even if you guys re-listen to this, right? It's like five minutes in, he just wants to talk about the hope he has in Christ and how God's grace has transformed him. You can have that same type of feelings, the same type of freedom, and the same type of truth in your life.
00:45:51
Keith
Amen to that.
00:45:51
Ken Freire
All right. It's not your, your sin does not outpace the grace of God.
00:45:57
Keith
That's right.
00:45:58
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:45:58
Keith
Awesome.
00:45:59
Ken Freire
Well, Keith, thank you so much for being part for all of you men keep pursuing Jesus.
00:45:59
Keith
Awesome.
00:46:03
Ken Freire
And like I say, every single time kill shame, stand strong and be on mission. Hope you have a great day and God bless.
00:46:08
Keith
Yeah, thanks Ken. Take care.
00:46:11
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:46:12
Keith
Bye.