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I Was a Christian Therapist Addicted to Psychiatric Medications—Here’s What Finally Set Me Free
172 Plays10 months ago
What happens when the man everyone turns to for healing is secretly breaking down?
Dr. Mark McNear was a respected Christian therapist. But behind closed doors, he was overusing psychiatric medication to numb deep childhood trauma. In this raw episode, he shares how a confrontation with a psychiatrist forced him into rehab, how his family met his confession with grace, and how Jesus met him in the middle of his shame—not after he cleaned up.
This is a story of grace, healing, and learning to feel safe in your own skin.
Timestamps
- 00:04 – The double life of a therapist
- 01:24 – What people didn’t see
- 02:34 – Justifying the medications
- 06:24 – The turning point: “You need rehab”
- 08:03 – His wife's gracious response
- 09:07 – His daughter’s encouragement
- 12:47 – Childhood trauma resurfaces
- 15:20 – Learning to trust safe people
- 19:24 – Wrestling with God's presence
- 21:07 – Jesus asks, Do you want to get well?
- 27:10 – Learning to feel safe in his body
- 32:09 – Why Jiu-Jitsu became healing
- 36:15 – Final encouragement to men
Key Quotes
- I was dripping with shame.
- Addiction lied to me and told me I was fine.
- No one told me I was traumatized.
- Grace showed up before I believed it could.
- God didn’t wait for me to clean up. He met me in the mess.
Resources & Links
- Website & Coaching: www.markmcnear.com
- Book: Finding My Words: A Ruthless Commitment to Healing Gently After Trauma
- Scripture Referenced:
Romans 2:4
Ephesians 2:10
Psalm 36:9
John 5:6
Call to Action
If this episode resonated, don’t keep it to yourself. Share it. Reach out to someone. Even just one person. You are not disqualified. God’s grace gets the last word.
Subscribe to the Shame(less) Podcast and follow us for more stories like this.
Recommended
Transcript
Intro
Introduction to Dr. Mark McNair's Journey
00:00:30
Ken Freire
What happens when the man others go to for healing is the one silently falling apart? What if the Christian counselor or therapist who gives hope is drowning in addiction?
00:00:42
Ken Freire
And what if behind that addiction is something darker he swore he'd never speak of? Today's guest, Dr. Mark McNair, was a respected therapist and believer, but his double life brought him to the edge.
00:00:56
Ken Freire
This is a story of what finally set him free. Dr. Mark, thank you for coming on the show. So glad to have you here today.
00:01:04
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Ken, how are you doing today?
00:01:06
Ken Freire
Man, I'm doing great. ah The day of a a recording is a beautiful, beautiful day here in Nashville, Tennessee.
00:01:12
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Ooh, Nashville.
00:01:12
Ken Freire
So I'm enjoying it.
00:01:16
Ken Freire
Yeah. Yeah.
00:01:16
Dr. Mark M. McNear
I'm in New Jersey and it's really sunny here too.
00:01:19
Ken Freire
Oh, perfect. I don't know if you knew this.
00:01:20
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Wow.
00:01:20
Ken Freire
I was born and raised in New York City.
00:01:22
Dr. Mark M. McNear
I did not know that.
00:01:22
Ken Freire
So yeah, so you and we're like cousins at this point.
00:01:26
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, and I've been in Nashville many, many times. Love Nashville.
00:01:30
Ken Freire
I love it. Well,
Impact of Addiction on Family Life
00:01:32
Ken Freire
Dr. Mark, you know, you talked about when you have a book out and we'll talk quite a bit about the book today. But one of the things that I resonated with you was your story of wanting to just hide so much.
00:01:46
Ken Freire
And there's so many men who want to hide their story and what actually has happened to them. So I want to start with the image of people had of you, a successful therapist, a Christian man, but what was actually going on behind the scenes?
00:02:00
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Well, and that's a great question. I talk about that in the book, the idea that I was taking tons of medication to be able to kind outrun my childhood. And so one of the things I talk about book is I was sadly emotionally abusive to my family and a lot of mood swings.
00:02:20
Dr. Mark M. McNear
and was taking, as I said, a lot a prescriptions and abusing those prescriptions. And it seemed like the more I took, the more I needed to be able to rise to some level of, I'm gonna say normal, it wasn't normal, but it was, you I had so much pain inside from my childhood and just didn't know how to deal with it.
00:02:42
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And as you said, there's things that I was not comfortable talking about with anyone. And so that changed about 10 years ago.
Denial and Misdiagnosis in Addiction
00:02:53
Ken Freire
When you started to take all the medication and stuff like that, what was kind of the excuses or the justifications that you were making to say, yes, I could keep going this farther, knowing from your background that you're probably addicting or getting addicted to it?
00:03:07
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Well, You know, I don't, I don't know if I knew that I was addicted, addicted to it.
00:03:13
Ken Freire
Yeah. And
00:03:13
Dr. Mark M. McNear
I think that that's, that's the funny thing with addictions or the ironic thing. They lie to you and tell you there's no problem there, you know, and so. I think what it was is I got diagnosed with so many different things. I was struggling with ADHD. I don't even think I have ADHD, but I got diagnosed with it.
00:03:32
Dr. Mark M. McNear
You know, got diagnosed with anxiety disorder, got diagnosed with depression. And so all of the medications were prescribed to help me to function. And so would begin to take one. And so things worked out pretty well. So why not take two?
00:03:50
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so, you know, justified it in in the fact that I never felt good. Like my body was always so uptight. My mood was always so off that I think that for me, it was, okay, I'm going to do this because it helps me to function.
00:04:07
Ken Freire
Yeah. So how your family, because, you know, they're seeing all this and they're being affected from it. How did they handle you or manage you during these mood swings?
00:04:17
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, I think that they distanced from me. I mentioned in the book, my daughter Emily traveled to Florida and moved down there for a while. Debbie was busy. My wife was busy with her career, with teaching. And so I think that there was just this thing of leave him alone because, you know, my mood was not good. And because I just wasn't functioning, I wasn't going to things that they were going to. So I kind of separated from them.
00:04:43
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And by virtue of that, I think they just separated from me.
Separation, Shame, and Self-Doubt
00:04:47
Ken Freire
How did you feel when they started doing that? Because I could see like, you know, when separation starts happening, there's a lot of shame in that.
00:04:55
Ken Freire
There's shame in you trying to cope with everything that you're going through. How did you just start to handle all of those negative emotions?
00:05:04
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, that's a good question. And also a hard question. I think that it just made me go more into my addiction. and And there was part of me that said, what's the matter with them? But there was, there's a bigger part probably that was saying, like, what's the matter with you? Why? Why?
00:05:18
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Why can't you be there?
00:05:22
Ken Freire
I know there's a lot of men who probably feel that same way. So can you talk a little bit more about that? of They feel that negative emotion of just like, wow, I know I should be doing better, but I can't.
00:05:36
Ken Freire
And I'm not putting myself in the right position.
00:05:39
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, that's a great point. I think that, you know, I just didn't feel well. I was so traumatized from my childhood. And interestingly enough, you know, I had all of these diagnoses, but nobody came to me and said, I think you've been really traumatized.
00:05:55
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so, you know, I always felt like there was something wrong with me from childhood. And from the way that I was treated things like that. And so I think I carried that with me and and felt like there was just this heaviness saying like, what's the matter with you?
00:06:14
Dr. Mark M. McNear
You know, whether it's something that I was doing or just who I was, you know, there was this just, I was i draped in shame. Didn't know it back then, but just draped in shame of there's something wrong with you.
00:06:27
Ken Freire
were the signs that when you started to recognize that, man, something is wrong with you and like things are not okay?
Awareness and Decision to Enter Rehab
00:06:35
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Well, I had a real wake-up call from a psychiatrist. I called the psychiatrist for refills. and it was way too early. And so she did the math quickly and came to the conclusion that I was getting addicted to certain medications that I was on.
00:06:52
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so she flat out said, you know, you need to go to rehab. So I'd like to say I had this like real awareness, but no, it was her pointing out to me, you need help.
00:07:04
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so right after that, I can remember being upstairs in my house and thinking to myself like, oh no, what do I do?
00:07:15
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And I knew I needed to go. And so reality started to really hit.
00:07:22
Ken Freire
And with that, did did say, yeah, I'm gonna do it? Or did you like take a few months to like justify it?
00:07:27
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Oh, no, no, no. I need, I need to, Ken, I needed to go for help. There was no negotiating that because I was in withdrawal from not having enough of the medication.
00:07:39
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so I needed to do something very quickly.
00:07:43
Ken Freire
Okay, so you were like, hey, I'm going to go to rehab. When you started to go to rehab, I'm curious, your family has been seeing you go through this crazy journey.
00:07:53
Ken Freire
How did they view you and how did you view them? like Or the perception of now you're the man, right? You're the one who's supposed to be the therapist, but now you're going to rehab.
00:08:04
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah.
00:08:04
Ken Freire
I'm sure there's a lot of shame there that kind of was involved.
00:08:07
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yad.
00:08:07
Ken Freire
I'm just curious, how did your family feel? And and how did you feel about that whole situation?
00:08:11
Dr. Mark M. McNear
That's a great question. You know, I was dripping with shame. That's how I would put it. Like I was covered at And so my wife was at school teaching. And so I knew that she'd be home around 3.30.
00:08:24
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so she came home and I mustered up the confidence and courage to be able to say to her, need to go to rehab. I talked with the doctor and she said that I'm addicted and need to get married.
00:08:41
Dr. Mark M. McNear
off the medication and into rehab. And so Debbie was like phenomenal with it. She was so kind, so loving and just said, you know what, we're going to get through this together.
00:08:54
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so that was like, so healing. It wasn't like, well, I knew this all along or anything like that. It was like, you know what, you're really hurting. see it. And this is going to be a new start for us.
00:09:07
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so I remember, and then I had to contact my daughter and I mentioned she was in
00:09:07
Ken Freire
Wow.
Family Support in Recovery Journey
00:09:13
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Florida.
00:09:14
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And I remember texting Emily and saying to her that I had had the conversation with the doctor and the doctor recommended rehab. And she just wrote back, I am so proud of you.
00:09:27
Ken Freire
Wow. I'm sure that was probably the beginning of the healing and also the grace that was being delivered to you.
00:09:32
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah. Absolutely. was an answer to a prayer that I didn't ask for.
00:09:41
Ken Freire
You know, I know a lot of guys who they have been afraid and I've had guests on the podcast who have told me that when they've shared these deep vulnerable struggles or sin or weaknesses that they've had, that like the people they share it with have rejected them.
00:09:55
Ken Freire
And that's what a lot of men are afraid of.
00:09:55
Dr. Mark M. McNear
yeah.
00:09:57
Ken Freire
Dr. Mark, I'm just curious if you were concerned about that or in your time of practice, have you encountered that?
00:09:57
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Sure.
00:10:03
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Oh yeah, all the time. and And so I've seen it, you know, spouses, I've seen it with family members, understandably, just really struggling and distancing and not wanting to be a part of it.
00:10:15
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so I have to tell you that there was a sense in my mind of this is God stepping in.
00:10:27
Dr. Mark M. McNear
there was a part of me Not all of me, but there was a part of me that just felt this is going to be okay. You know, I knew Debbie and I knew the person she was. And so while it felt really good, there was a part of me that knew that she would enter into this with me with grace.
00:10:47
Ken Freire
So it sounds like for those who are struggling right now, one of the key foundational pillars for you was having that that support system.
00:10:59
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, and I think I had an ultimatum too.
00:10:59
Ken Freire
You had it from your wife, your child, other guys.
00:11:05
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:11:05
Dr. Mark M. McNear
You know, you
Professional Hiatus for Recovery
00:11:06
Dr. Mark M. McNear
need, you know what I, it wasn't only like, you know, you've really suffered and you've really struggled, but it was also, you need to take action with this.
00:11:16
Ken Freire
Yeah. From a professional standpoint, how did that affect your career?
00:11:20
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Well, that's a great question. Radically, because I knew I was going to rehab, wasn't comfortable at that time. I wasn't seeing that many patients because I wasn't functioning that well, but the patients that ah that the that I was seeing, I remember Debbie and I scripting ah voicemail to put on my office phone and also on my cell phone, just saying that there was a medical issue that needed to be dealt with and that I would be out of the office for undetermined amount of time.
00:11:56
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so know, Ken, I had no idea long it was going to take. I know it's taken a lot longer than I ever dreamt. There was a part of me that was like, you know what, I'll just go get it over with in a couple months and then go right back to practice. But I wasn't able to, like I was in too bad of shape.
00:12:15
Dr. Mark M. McNear
I wasn't functioning and really struggling with emotions and with the past that I never had dealt with before. And so actually it was two years from the time that I went to rehab that I entered back into practice.
00:12:30
Ken Freire
Okay. Wow. For a lot of people, that's like a new life.
00:12:34
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:12:34
Ken Freire
That's a long time. So walk us through when you decided to finally go into rehab, you start to go through it. What were some of the other thoughts that were going through your mind? Like besides like, hey, this should be a few months. like Walk us through your journey there.
00:12:48
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Well, I went into rehab and it was like a culture shock.
Challenges of Rehab and Story Sharing
00:12:52
Dr. Mark M. McNear
know, I was the patient. And so I was feeling terrible and the medication was going out of my system. And so That was a struggle in and of itself. And then on top of that, I had all of these memories bombarding me from childhood, things that had happened to me.
00:13:11
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so... that was part of the journey is i wasn't i didn't feel safe enough to talk to people at rehab about it like they you know big part of it was tell your story and i knew that my story was so strange in so many ways that i wasn't going to comfortable talking about it you know for example when i was four years old my dad had forced me to eat carrots i ended up getting sick and so started crying and ended up throwing up and he picked me up and he threw me in the garbage
00:13:42
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so like, I wasn't ready to verbalize these things. i i thought about them over and over, thought about the sexual abuse over and over again, but just felt like I can't tell anybody this stuff, you know? And, and so it wasn't until I got home and started my healing journey from my healing journey in rehab that I started to feel comfortable to talk about some of these things.
00:14:11
Ken Freire
Okay, so rehab, you kind of like kick the medication a little bit, right?
00:14:14
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, yeah.
00:14:15
Ken Freire
Or the...
00:14:15
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And, and got in a good routine, you know, getting up at the right time, going to bed at the right time, being around tons of people, which was a culture shock because I was really isolated toward the end.
00:14:27
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:14:27
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so, you know, each part of it, I could see God in each part of my journey. It was kind of like, well, okay, this isn't going to be yet, but then this is going to come. And then, all right, so I'm going to go into IOP, intensive outpatient treatment.
00:14:44
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Then I'm gonna individual counseling. And then from there, I'm gonna start working on the addictions. I was going to 12 step meetings. And so it was interesting. God showed up each step of the way.
00:14:58
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And like things that I'm doing now, even in treatment for myself, I could have never done back then. It would have been just too much for me to take.
Safe Sharing as a Path to Freedom
00:15:07
Ken Freire
Yeah, so there's a couple directions we want to take this, but the first one I want to talk about is you had to get to a place where you felt safe enough to share your story.
00:15:18
Ken Freire
And I know that there's a lot of guys, and and you've seen the statistics, Dr. Mark, you and I both have victims ah ah of child sexual abuse. But like one of out of every four men have been sexually abused, right?
00:15:27
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:29
Ken Freire
So there's a ton of men. I do this all the time whenever I'm in a room with like 100 men. I give them that statistic. So I'm like, so I know at least 25 of you are going to resonate with this, but you will never tell a soul.
00:15:37
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah. Right.
00:15:39
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Right.
00:15:40
Ken Freire
how do you get them to a place where they feel safe to share their story?
00:15:44
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Well, I think that I can first speak for myself. It was incremental. It was step, little steps by little step, by little step and being able to even tolerate it in my body to be able to talk about this stuff. And then, you know, i i had so many great people around me that helped me with that, you know, that I would share like a little piece here, a little piece there.
00:16:10
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so it wasn't all at once. And I can remember there was ah guy, I call him Brennan in the book, and he he was a believer.
00:16:21
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And he and I got to be very close and I shared with him just a little bit. And he was safe and we're friends to this day. 10 years later, we're really good friends. And you he said to me, you know what?
00:16:36
Dr. Mark M. McNear
I know you don't feel comfortable talking about it here, but when you get out, you need to find some safe people to be able to talk to about it. And so I'd like to tell you that it went from one to a hundred and in a few weeks, it it took me a long time to be able to talk about a lot of this stuff.
00:16:57
Ken Freire
Yeah. What was the, like, I know for me, and this, it's different for everybody, but, you know, when you start to share little pieces of information, you find a little bit of freedom, right?
00:17:03
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah.
00:17:08
Ken Freire
You're like, oh, I share this.
00:17:09
Ken Freire
I share this.
00:17:11
Ken Freire
But there's always that one, like, leverage one. Like, I shared this piece, and all of a sudden, sudden, like, the avalanche of God's grace started to fall.
00:17:16
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:17:19
Ken Freire
For you, did you have that same moment? And if so, what was that moment?
00:17:23
Dr. Mark M. McNear
You know, I think that, again, would use the word incremental.
00:17:27
Dr. Mark M. McNear
You know, it was, there was so much trauma in my childhood and so many strange things happened that it was, right, I'm going to trust this person with this one thing, not even knowing that that's what I was thinking. And, you know, there would be a really warm reception.
00:17:45
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And then... I would take the next step to share another thing. you With my wife, Debbie, I started sharing stuff with her that I had never shared with anyone. And again, she showed up and was safe and holding it for me and being understanding. And she knew my family background. And so I think a lot of it didn't surprise her.
00:18:08
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so it it was the ability to be able to share one step at a time. A lot times we just, and maybe some people do, but like just blurbed it all out. But like for me, couldn't do that.
00:18:21
Ken Freire
Yeah. Okay, so all the incremental changes. I know that during your book, and by the way, we haven't named the name of your book. Tell me believe it's correct. It's Finding My Words of Ruthless Commitment to Healing Gently after a child trauma, right?
00:18:37
Dr. Mark M. McNear
it
00:18:38
Ken Freire
Okay, so I know in part of the book, you talked about time, and I really want to hone in on this, where you've talked so far about how God has been with you, but there was a time where you felt like God wasn't with you in this process.
Struggle with Faith in Dark Times
00:18:50
Ken Freire
And I know a lot of people who have felt this way, where they're like,
00:18:53
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah.
00:18:54
Ken Freire
God are you even here and they feel completely abandoned and desolate and if we're honest I think for a lot of people of abuse survivors that's something a temptation that the enemy will always try to mess with us is like God's not there God's not with you walk us through and tell us a little bit about that kind of journey in life
00:19:15
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Sure. I think that for me, idea, and I agree with you 100%, the idea that My dad wasn't there for me.
00:19:26
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so I think I carried that over to God in a lot of ways. And I knew the theology and I knew the verses, but it's like when you've messed up as badly as had done, how would he be there for me? you That was what I felt.
00:19:44
Dr. Mark M. McNear
But as I stepped out in faith and did things, put one foot in front of the other, he would show up. And he's still doing that to this day. And it was just amazing to see there were times when I didn't step forward and he was still there.
00:19:59
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And there was times when I felt like I felt right on my face and he was still there. So there was a, there's an article that I wrote for the Christian post and it, it, was about, you know, is there grace after salvation?
00:20:16
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And, In the article, I talk about the fact that absolutely, like our stories are no surprise to God.
00:20:22
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:20:25
Dr. Mark M. McNear
What we have been through is no surprise to God. And he is ready and waiting to come alongside us with grace and mercy and with his wonderful unconditional love.
00:20:37
Ken Freire
Yeah, amen. And that and is ah ah big part of the story, right? That is your story of how God just graciously comes through and heals you.
00:20:43
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah.
00:20:46
Ken Freire
And remember, I'm correct, in one part, you felt like Jesus had asked you, like, do you want to get well?
00:20:52
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yes, yeah, yeah.
00:20:53
Ken Freire
Right? Like you're you're going through this healing journey and you're like, do you actually want to get well, which is huge because I remember I've done quite a bit of late counseling in this area and I'm just kind of like, do you even want to change?
00:21:04
Ken Freire
Do you want to get well? And it's surprising that sometimes people are like, no, they like being in this stage.
00:21:05
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah.
00:21:09
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, and I talk about it in the bookend that it would have been ah ah ah maybe a much better book if I was able to say, you know, like he showed up and I was like, yeah, let's go. But I was like, not sure.
00:21:22
Ken Freire
Yeah. Why was it?
00:21:23
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Not sure. so again, he shows up where we're at and takes us from there. know, and that's one of the things that I have and I'm still learning is trying to be real, trying to be honest, trying to be straightforward and be like, I'm just really struggling.
00:21:43
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Like, I need your help. I really need your help.
00:21:47
Ken Freire
Yeah. So when he asked you that and you're like, I'm not sure, and he's walking you through these baby steps, when was the moment when you were like, yeah, God, I want to get well?
Incremental Healing and Trust Building
00:21:59
Dr. Mark M. McNear
You know, I think it was step by step by step of Ken saying, okay, well, I'm willing to do this, but I'm not doing that.
00:22:09
Ken Freire
Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:09
Dr. Mark M. McNear
So I would do this and then it cause me to move forward and be ready to do something else that I had put restrictions on.
00:22:20
Dr. Mark M. McNear
You know, it's like, I'm not talking about some these things. Like I, I'm not talking about them. I hardly talk about them with myself. i repressed them for years and years and years. I'm not talking about them with anybody else.
00:22:32
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And then as I found more freedom, was able to talk about more and able to reach out and get the support that I needed. Yeah.
00:22:42
Ken Freire
Praise God. And isn't that beautiful where it's like, we know God requires 100% obedience. And at the same time, he's so gracious to us knowing that like, we're never gonna get there.
00:22:55
Ken Freire
We're never gonna be perfect at
00:22:56
Dr. Mark M. McNear
yeah no Yeah.
00:22:58
Ken Freire
And he's so gracious in the fact that he's just like, oh, I know Mark is not gonna give me 100%. He's only maybe gonna give me 10%, but I'm still gonna guide you.
00:23:04
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I, yeah, absolutely. And I think that we tell ourselves we have to do this thing perfectly and there's no such thing as perfect.
00:23:13
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:23:16
Dr. Mark M. McNear
It's showing up each day best that we can and allowing his grace to fill in the gaps. And there's a lot of gaps in my life still, but there's not as many, there's not as much fragmentation, there's not as much confusion as it was 10 years ago.
00:23:34
Ken Freire
Yeah, and even as you're talking about that, you I think about God's grace and even the story about you sharing about your dad throwing you in the trash, right? Like for a lot of men and a lot of people who've been abused, they feel like they're trash.
00:23:48
Ken Freire
They're like, oh my gosh, I'm trash, I'm worthless. Your dad is now trying to, you he's giving you a physical representation of this, but God, our father, he's like, hey, it's interesting that he didn't treat you and he doesn't treat us harshly.
00:24:02
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah.
00:24:03
Ken Freire
It was so gracious.
00:24:03
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And, and yeah, I love, I love that verse in, in Ephesians where it talks about, we are his handiwork or we are his masterpiece or in the Greek it's, you know, we are his poem, am I, his poem that he's writing with us.
00:24:18
Dr. Mark M. McNear
So I think a lot of times we put all of these restrictions on him. We say, I have to do this perfectly. I have to. And he's like, show up. No, there were so many times, Ken,
00:24:29
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And there still are so many times when he shows up like he did with the prodigal son. And that is healing for me in and of itself.
00:24:42
Ken Freire
Talk a little bit more about that. I'm curious, how does that and scripture, how did scripture move you from something taught to something that started to actually heal
Scripture as a Source of Healing
00:24:52
Ken Freire
you and it started to come alive?
00:24:53
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I found that I wasn't putting into this relationship with him my preconceived notions. I was allowing him, again, to show up and show me who he was. and I think that as a result of that, well, I know as a result of that, I saw scripture clearer.
00:25:13
Dr. Mark M. McNear
saw love of the Father. i i saw that he wasn't there to condemn. but that he was there to come alongside me and to write this story, this messy, messy story with me and, you know, really take ashes and turn it into beauty.
00:25:32
Ken Freire
Yeah, for you during that season of him taking you from ashes to beauty, know can be hard, but so beautiful.
00:25:43
Ken Freire
And for you, I'm wondering, like as you were going through it, what was like a beautiful memory that you just go back to that God was like becoming a father to you and he he saying, hey, I'm healing this father wound that you have and I'm showing you that I'm your father now.
00:26:00
Dr. Mark M. McNear
You know, I oftentimes show up uptight, you know, and especially when I make mistakes and through other people and through seeing him more clearly, know, it helped me to realize that I don't have to worry about these mistakes, that he's aware of them.
00:26:23
Dr. Mark M. McNear
You know, I'm going to do my best, but I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to sin every day. But he's still there and Jesus is my advocate. And I'm sealed as, you know, scripture talks about I'm sealed to the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit.
00:26:39
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so I'm safe in him. You know, the key for me or one of the keys i would say is I needed to start feeling safe in my body.
Feeling Safe in One's Body
00:26:50
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And that took, you know, a long, long time for me.
00:26:54
Dr. Mark M. McNear
But now I'm really, really grateful because I can show up and help other people to learn how to do that for themselves.
00:27:03
Ken Freire
Yeah, so when you use that term, in your in my body, you know, a lot of people could take that ah thousand different ways.
00:27:09
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah.
00:27:09
Ken Freire
What do you mean by that?
00:27:10
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Well, this is one of the things I teach clients. you There's this window of tolerance. And so there's the red zone. And then there's the green zone and then there's the blue zone. And the red zone is hyper aroused where you're anxious or angry or irritable cranky, a lot of energy, just like lot of feelings of being uptight.
00:27:31
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And flip side of it, go from the red to the blue, hyper aroused where you're scrolling on your phone, wanna go to bed, wanna withdraw, just hide, isolate.
00:27:42
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so it's that idea of not being too too much in the red zone, too much in the blue zone, but being more in the green zone.
00:27:52
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And that takes a relaxed body. And so finding ways, you know, whether it's walking or exercise, or whether it's breathing or coloring or doing things with your body to help relax your body.
00:28:06
Ken Freire
You know, for me, I think um one of things that has helped me the most, I'm trying to remember the the the passage, I believe it's Psalms 36, four, where he says, in that light, you shall see light.
00:28:16
Ken Freire
when when I was thinking about your blue zone, red zone, I know when I feel like I'm trying to take control over everything, I'm in the red zone because I'm so hypervigilant.
00:28:23
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
00:28:25
Ken Freire
I'm like, what's going on? I start to get anxious. And when I fail ah ah controlling the things I feel like I should be able to control, which is just an illusion, right?
00:28:35
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah.
00:28:35
Ken Freire
hit the blue zone and I just want to escape and I want to withdraw it.
00:28:38
Ken Freire
I'm like, I'm going to binge Netflix. I'm going to do all these things.
00:28:40
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:42
Ken Freire
What I've...
00:28:43
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Go ahead, I'm sorry.
00:28:43
Ken Freire
Go for it, go for it. No, no.
00:28:45
Dr. Mark M. McNear
I was just gonna say, even you talking about that, it's exciting for me to hear you talk about it because it's like, yeah, I can name these things.
00:28:52
Ken Freire
Yes, exactly. in those naming of those things, what I have found for me personally is that with those aspects, both of them, I've realized that I'm looking to myself
Faith and Personal Work in Healing
00:29:07
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:07
Ken Freire
for a solution.
00:29:09
Ken Freire
And when I flipped it and I said, like going back to Psalm 36, four, where says in that light, you shall see light. It's like, oh, wait a minute. When I look at God, the father of light, and I'm just focused on him, he's going to show me the right way.
00:29:17
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah.
00:29:23
Ken Freire
He's going to show me how to get to that green zone of like, oh, this is the way you should be thinking. This is the way you should be living.
00:29:28
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Right, right, right.
00:29:29
Ken Freire
This is the way I see you. man, all of a sudden sudden there's, there's a ton of healing. I say I'm curious, Dr. Mark, would you, one, agree with that? And two, be like, yes, this is ultimately how we need to move from ourself and move our eyes towards God to kind of shape our lives and help us see how to be better and and walk in grace.
00:29:50
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, I think that it's twofold. And I agree with you 100%. I think we have to do the work, you know, and not control the situation not try to control each part of it, but showing up more emotionally regulated.
00:30:05
Dr. Mark M. McNear
You know, if I'm in the red zone, I'm not seeing God clear. If I'm in the blue zone, I'm not seeing God. So how can I, and it's different for everyone, what kind of tools can I use to just slow my body down?
00:30:19
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Or what activities do I need to do kind of get out of that binging on Netflix? You know, so I teach clients ways to tend to their body so that they can show up better for themselves and for, you know, their family and friends.
00:30:40
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Does that make sense?
00:30:41
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:30:41
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Or
00:30:42
Ken Freire
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Practical Tools for Emotional Regulation
00:30:44
Ken Freire
Give the guys who are listening to some practical tips on like what might be some of those tools that that they may need. Like say guy's coming like, I'm binging through Netflix, but I know that when I start binging through Netflix, I'm going to end up watching pornography because, you know, it's a slippery slope.
00:30:59
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So, so first thing we already did, and that is to kind of identify these three states or these three areas that we might be in.
00:31:09
Dr. Mark M. McNear
From there, you know, sometimes you have to get your body moving and sometimes you have to slow your body down. Doing things like breathing. like walking, like exercise.
00:31:20
Dr. Mark M. McNear
You know, have a coach that talks about crazy things have happened to us. So we kind of have to do crazy things to get out of it. So an example, you know, to kind of step out of my comfort zone, I was talking to him and he said, you know, I'm going to give you a recommendation. Sometimes you have to just be daring with this stuff. So I'm like, what is that? And he was like, you know, I want you to to consider getting into jujitsu.
00:31:46
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And I'm like, yeah, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
00:31:46
Ken Freire
I love it.
00:31:48
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so I signed up for it. I found somebody and I signed up for it. And you being somebody who was sexually abused, it has been so good to me because I'm getting more in touch with my body, feeling, getting close to another guy being able to tolerate that and also have safety to be able to tap, to be able to say,
00:32:14
Dr. Mark M. McNear
I need space.
00:32:16
Ken Freire
Yeah, absolutely. How long have you been doing it for now? I'm just curious.
00:32:19
Dr. Mark M. McNear
I've only been doing it for a couple months, but I'm really excited and really enjoying it.
00:32:23
Dr. Mark M. McNear
So, you know, for the guys listening, I would say, You know, experiment with things, you know, maybe coloring. I've done a lot of coloring. I have done lot with colored pencils. I've done a lot with breathing. i have done EMDR, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing to kind of process some of the trauma that I've had.
00:32:46
Dr. Mark M. McNear
You know, so story work. has been really important to me. You know, being able to and being willing to step out of your comfort zone to do things that maybe you never dreamt of doing him before.
00:32:59
Ken Freire
Yeah. Dr. Mark, one, I'm excited you're doing jujitsu. I've been doing it and half years at the time of the recording.
00:33:05
Dr. Mark M. McNear
awesome.
00:33:06
Ken Freire
So I get
00:33:06
Dr. Mark M. McNear
That's awesome.
00:33:08
Ken Freire
for, you know, it's interesting. I never would have thought about this till probably a few years ago. I was actually counseling someone and they were asking me, like, why are you more confident now than, you know, five years ago?
00:33:20
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Right.
00:33:20
Ken Freire
And I'm like, oh, well, of course, I've been in my my sanctification journey.
00:33:20
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Mm-hmm.
00:33:25
Ken Freire
But I think for a lot of men who have been abused, at least for me, the things that I remember is when you feel like such a victim, and especially as a child, you don't feel like you have control over anything and you feel like anybody could hurt you.
00:33:39
Ken Freire
When jujitsu taught me that, hey, I could control and I could maintain someone and I could manage that, I felt like I had that manhood card given back to me.
00:33:49
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, and it's interesting because Vessel van der Kolk, the psychiatrist that wrote The Body Keeps the Score, one of the most well-known books, talks about that in there.
00:33:49
Ken Freire
Now,
00:34:01
Dr. Mark M. McNear
He talks about, you know, jiu-jitsu gives you a sense of safety. It gives you a sense of of agency. It gives you all of these different things where you begin to carry your body, and there's safety in that.
00:34:12
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Just being able to feel more comfortable and know you can protect yourself.
00:34:17
Ken Freire
Yeah, 100%. And, you know, coming from a Christian worldview, I'm like, I have a sense of agency that I could protect myself knowing that God is still sovereign and he's the who ultimately controls things.
00:34:27
Dr. Mark M. McNear
yeah.
00:34:28
Ken Freire
So there's like this both that I'm like, okay,
00:34:31
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah.
00:34:32
Ken Freire
I know someone could come tomorrow with a gun and shoot me. Like I have no, like that's, you're just, he's help with that if there's enough distance, right?
00:34:37
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Right.
00:34:38
Ken Freire
I can't do that, but I know God's in control and, and walking
Active Participation in Healing
00:34:42
Ken Freire
through this. So I'm curious as we wrap up here, Dr. Mark, it sounds like I hear a couple of things. If you are either in the green zone or in the blues or sorry, in the red zone or in the blue zone,
00:34:54
Ken Freire
right? You're using these tools like jujitsu or something like that to regulate and get to a place where you can breathe so that you can get your mind focused on God and then God is ultimately healing you.
00:35:06
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, and I think that, i and I think that, you know, for so many people who have been abused, the body becomes the enemy.
00:35:06
Ken Freire
That's kind of what I'm i'm
00:35:15
Dr. Mark M. McNear
you know, we kind of disassociate from it or push away.
00:35:17
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:35:18
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And that's what porn use is all about, disassociating and not being present. And so, you know, finding ways to become more alive, you know, Jesus said that he's come that we might have an abundant life, you know, and so all all addictions do is make your life very, very small.
00:35:38
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And so stepping out of that and to be able to say, like, if you would have told me 10 years ago, I'd be doing jujitsu, I'd say like, Ken, you are absolutely crazy. But you know, that's the step by step and showing up and doing different things. I think that's that idea. There's always that tension.
00:35:56
Dr. Mark M. McNear
You know, if you want a hole in your backyard, you know, a hole in the ground, you need to pray about it, but then you also need to bring a shovel.
00:36:05
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:36:06
Dr. Mark M. McNear
You know, there's a part that God does, but there's also a part that we have to step into and be willing to participate.
00:36:13
Ken Freire
Yeah. And that's the part where most guys have the hardest time is stepping in.
00:36:17
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Sure.
00:36:18
Ken Freire
And I think one of the reasons they have a hard time stepping into it is they feel disqualified.
00:36:24
Ken Freire
So can you talk to that guy?
00:36:26
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, that's so good.
00:36:27
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And one of the verses that I absolutely love and I carry with me is, it's the kindness of God that leads to change, or it's the kindness of God that leads to
00:36:38
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And Jay Stringer, I had done some intensives with Jay, and he shared that verse with me, and it's like it became alive in a real way.
00:36:42
Ken Freire
Yep.
00:36:49
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And and so, yeah, when we've not been treated well, we tend to treat ourselves in a harsh way. And so, yeah, showing up and treating yourself well with kindness, think that that's part of the journey.
00:37:06
Ken Freire
Yeah.
Sharing Stories for Growth and Healing
00:37:07
Ken Freire
So, so Mark for, for guys who listening to this and as we wrap up, they feel disqualified. You are just sharing with them. Like it's okay. It's God's kindness that leads us to change. And and doesn't disqualify you.
00:37:20
Ken Freire
Like he's going to restore you. He's going to change you. He's going to help you become the man that he's called you to be. Like you said, in Ephesians 2 10, he's a workmanship.
00:37:27
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Right.
00:37:30
Ken Freire
We are his workmanship, the masterpiece. For those guys who are listening to this and they're like, I resonate with this. And Mark, I'm in the red zone, I'm in the blue zone and I need help.
00:37:42
Ken Freire
I know you have some coaching services that that you can provide. What's the best way they can reach out to you so that they can hear more about what you do?
00:37:47
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah, they can. Yeah, they can go to my website, which is www.markmcnear.com. And there's a place where they can contact me there.
00:37:58
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And I would say though, in wrapping up, this is one thing that I would i challenge guys that are listening to this to do. And that's just find one person that you might be able to take just a little bit of risk with to share something with them, struggle.
00:38:08
Ken Freire
he got two.
00:38:19
Dr. Mark M. McNear
And then if that person's safe, then build upon it. If that person isn't safe, keep trying. Do not give up. Keep trying until you find someone that can hold part of your story and then be able to hold more of it.
00:38:33
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Because I think that we need people to be able to hold our stories in order to grow.
00:38:42
Ken Freire
Mark, that's a great word. And if people who are listening to this, you're like, I have no one in my life for that. I encourage you reach out to Dr. Mark, reach out to me, right?
00:38:51
Ken Freire
Like shoot us a DM and you don't have to share crazy amount of like start with a small thing, you know, and build on it.
00:38:52
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:38:59
Dr. Mark M. McNear
I would go as far as to say, don't go with a crazy amount to share. Just share a little bit of your story and then move from there.
00:39:07
Ken Freire
Yeah. And see how the person responds. That's an excellent, excellent word of encouragement.
00:39:09
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:12
Ken Freire
Dr. Mark, thank you so much for being on the show today. you for your story. I mean, think this is really important for so many men to hear sometimes they hear a story and they're like, oh, in two months I was, you know, porn free or I kicked my addiction. And you're like, man, this has been a journey.
00:39:28
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah.
00:39:29
Ken Freire
And now you're still you working through it and God is still healing you.
00:39:32
Ken Freire
And it's beautiful that God is doing that in your life and you're now
Encouragement for Ongoing Healing Through Faith
00:39:36
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Thank you.
00:39:36
Ken Freire
able to help people truly be set free from addiction and truly be set free from their past.
00:39:44
Ken Freire
That's beautiful. Thank you for allowing God to use you that way I know so many men need it.
00:39:49
Dr. Mark M. McNear
Yeah. And Ken, thank you for doing what you're doing. Really appreciate that.
00:39:54
Ken Freire
Thank you, thank you. Men, as we wrap up here, if this episode hit home, listen, don't keep it to yourself. Share this episode with someone who might be hurting and also for you, right? Share your story with just one person, right? Like just one little part and ultimately know that the one person you can share everything with is Jesus.
00:40:16
Ken Freire
He wants to meet you in your darkest moments, right? So make sure you share that with God. He will be there. He will guide you. He will protect you. And for anybody else who's listening to this and you share with him, man, make sure to subscribe to the Shameless Podcast.
00:40:31
Ken Freire
Go check out Dr. Mark McNair's book, Finding My Words. Reach out to him on his website because we know that grace, at the end of the day, real grace gets the last word.
00:40:42
Ken Freire
So go kill shame, stand strong, and be on mission. Hope you guys have great day and God bless.