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The Genesis Of Shame w/ Pastor Steve Treichler
79 Plays1 year ago
In this compelling episode, Ken Freire sits down with Steve Treichler (aka Trike), senior pastor of Hope Community Church in the Twin Cities, Minnesota. Together, they explore the origin of shame through Genesis chapters 1-3 and how understanding this foundational narrative transforms our understanding of sin, shame, and redemption.
Highlights:
- The Framework of Scripture: Creation, Fall, Redemption, and Restoration. How Genesis 1-3 sets the stage for the entire biblical narrative.
- The Intimacy of Creation: The significance of God breathing life into Adam and the unique creation of Eve as a helper.
- Shame's Origin: Adam and Eve's disobedience, the serpent’s deception, and the immediate impact of shame on their relationship with God and each other.
- Shame and the Gospel: How Jesus Christ not only pays the penalty for sin but also removes the shame that sin brings, as illustrated in Hebrews 12:2 and the concept of expiation.
- Practical Advice for Overcoming Shame: The importance of gospel friendships, confessing struggles, and preaching the gospel to yourself daily.
Key Quote:
"Shame is holding onto something that Jesus has already taken. The answer is not trying harder but trusting in the finished work of Christ, who removes both our sin and shame." — Steve Treichler
Resources Mentioned:
- Hope Community Church: Visit HopeCC.com for sermons, resources, and more.
- Romans Untangled Podcast: Dive deep into the Book of Romans in a clear, accessible way. Available on all major podcast platforms.
Connect with Steve Treichler:
Website - HopeCC.com
Podcast - Romans Untangled
Connect with Ken Freire:
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kenfreire
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/kenneth.freire
Tik Tok - https://www.tiktok.com/@kenfreire
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:30
Ken Freire
Welcome back to another episode. Today, I have with me one of my favorite top 500 people in the world.
00:00:40
Steve Treichler
AHHH!
00:00:43
Ken Freire
ah ah It's Steve Trichler, or for those of you who know him as Trike, you'll hear me call him Trike throughout this ah podcast, but he is the senior pastor of Hope Community Church in the Twin Cities in Minnesota.
00:00:56
Ken Freire
And for those of you, I used to live in Minnesota for nine years, and this is what I used to call my home church. Trike, I'm so excited to have you here. It's a pleasure.
00:01:07
Steve Treichler
Oh, it's a pleasure to be with you, my brother. We miss you up here.
00:01:11
Ken Freire
cannot tell you how many times wife and I talk and we're like, we just miss Hope Community Church. I wish we could just go back just for that church or bring you guys here.
00:01:19
Steve Treichler
Hey, we'll move down to Nashville. That's a little climate change would be good for us, yeah.
00:01:24
Ken Freire
Yeah, exactly. Maybe that'd be a better win. Try to see if I could get you guys all the way
Exploring Genesis: The Origins of Shame
00:01:28
Ken Freire
here. But today I'm excited because we're talking about the genesis of shame. With no pun intended, we're going to be talking about Genesis chapters one and three and how shame came about. And I'm really excited because this is something that you've been passionate about. And and I'm just curious what drew you into this topic and why do you think this is especially relevant to men?
00:01:52
Steve Treichler
It's a great question. I think the thing that drew me into this is the fact that if you break down all of scripture, it it basically boils down to four sections. You have creation, then you have the fall of humanity, then you have the redemption story,
00:02:10
Steve Treichler
And then you have the restoration of all things, right? Creation, fall, redemption, restoration. And so if you read the first three chapters of the Bible, you cover creation and fall. And if you read the last two chapters of the Bible, you read the restoration story, how things are going to be. So in five short chapters, you can read three quarters of the Bible story. However, of course, the redemption story is a huge part of scripture. I mean, that's a very important part. But I think having thought through like, how did we get into the mess we're in has caused me, and I'm being very serious here, for about 30 years, I have been thinking a lot about Genesis 1, 2, and 3 and trying to find
00:02:57
Steve Treichler
little pieces in there, there's no magic here, but just things that have clued me into how the rest of scripture unfolds. And I'll be honest with you, there's a lot of the rest of the story that goes back to Genesis 1, 2, and 3.
The Relevance of Shame to Men and Women
00:03:12
Steve Treichler
And so as I look at you fall of humanity, and that leads to our topic today, I think to better understand that helps us to understand how to overcome it. been kind of my passion. It's very relevant to men and women, but this podcast is primarily for men and that's great. So I just love to look at these three chapters of scripture.
00:03:35
Ken Freire
Yeah. You know, Trike, I remember, you know, out when we were there in Minnesota, and all the times we talked about, you know, creation and fall, and we would go through that that creation, fall, redemption, restoration. Hope is known for using that, like, in every other sermon. And you brought it up all the time. But here's what I found so fascinating, especially when you talked about Genesis 1, 2, and 3, is that, like, every single time you brought a new insight, and I'm like,
00:04:02
Ken Freire
I've been here for seven years, and I've probably heard you bring this topic up over and over again. And I'm still like, wow, I never saw that. And I have my MDiv, and I studied it.
00:04:13
Ken Freire
I'm like, how does this guy just keep going deeper and deeper into this passage?
Adam and Eve: From Innocence to Shame
00:04:18
Ken Freire
So it's fascinating that you're still able to pull that off.
00:04:18
Steve Treichler
Yeah.
00:04:21
Steve Treichler
Yeah, well, thanks. I don't know if I'm any smarter or better looking than anybody else, but I do think I just have kind of this, I have this fascination with with the little points of scripture and to stop and say, hey, why is that there?
00:04:40
Ken Freire
Yeah, so walk us through some of those because I know part of it is obviously in Genesis the story of Adam and Eve and particularly their transformation from being naked and unashamed to feeling exposed and covering themselves.
00:04:55
Ken Freire
So just kind of walk us through those little nuggets that you have found.
00:04:56
Steve Treichler
Right.
00:04:59
Steve Treichler
so if you, I'm gonna, you know, Genesis 1 is great. Genesis 1 is where it all starts. And it talks about the creation of Adam and Eve in Genesis 1, 27. It says, so God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them. So there's something very unique.
00:05:18
Steve Treichler
about being made in God's image, and there's an imageness and a likeness to God, but we're not God. It's very clear. We are part of creation. He is creator. There's a huge line between those two, okay? And that's very clear just in chapter one of scripture. There's creation, there's creator. But if you go over to chapter two, then there's more detailed account of the creation of Adam and Eve.
00:05:44
Steve Treichler
And if you just go over to chapter two, verse seven, it says, and and it seems like, wait, I thought we'd already did create Adam and Eve, but chapter two is like a hyperlink if you were to click on Genesis 1.27, and it it kind of opens up how it takes place. And Genesis 2.7 says, then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
00:06:12
Steve Treichler
Okay, this is not insignificant. So again, this is this what I do, okay? So you're wondering, how do you keep seeing this stuff? I ask myself the question, what's the point? The point is God creates Adam, right?
00:06:24
Steve Treichler
But that's not what, it doesn't just say God made a man and he lived. It says God made him from dust and then he breathed into him.
00:06:34
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:06:35
Steve Treichler
Now that's, insanely intimate, right? I mean, like, it's not like God said from a distance, hey, a piece of dust, you know, become life. He breathes on it, right? And so there's this, the first thing, his first gulp of air is this, the exhale of God, so to speak. And it's like, wow, that now that says something about Adam's relationship with God. He opens his eyes, he sees his creator, right?
00:07:02
Steve Treichler
He's then given a job. I won't go into all that. That's a little beyond our scope of what we're talking about. He's given a job in the garden. So the fall of humanity is not. The curse is not work. The curse is toiless work, hard work. right That's the curse. We'll get to the curse in a bit. But once we get to The the part where Adam is told what his job is you're to take care of this garden You're to you're to you're to tend it, but then you're free to eat from any tree in the garden But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for when you eat from it You will certainly die. That's the that's what is told to Adam The next verse then goes into sin saying it is not good for the man to be alone, right? It's this fascinating thing
00:07:52
Steve Treichler
And then this whole narrative about the creation of Eve happens, right? And it's fascinating. Why doesn't God just create Adam and then just get some of the dirt and create Eve? And the why? Well, it says it's not good for the man to be alone. I'll make a helper suitable for him.
00:08:11
Steve Treichler
So you think the next thing that's going to happen is God making this, this, this, this, ah ah my version it says helper, this suitor will help perform. But he doesn't. The next thing he does is it says that he took the animals before Adam and he asks them to name them. And you're thinking, wait, did What happened? what Why are we, you know, if this were a movie scene, it's like, wait, did did there a glitch here in the movie? Did I miss something? But if you look at here, it says, I brought them to the man to see what he would name them. And whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam, no suitable helper was found. Now, so that's fascinating. So what's God doing here?
00:09:00
Steve Treichler
God is not just naming animals and having Adam show his dominion or his, I'd like to say, stewardship of the animals in that way. And he was doing that. But Adam, is it says that they were looking for a suitable helper by all of these animals, right? Now, I ask, ah use this passage for all my premarital counseling. I've never had a couple get it wrong. I say, big theological question for you here.
00:09:28
Steve Treichler
Do you think God knew that all the animals would not suffice for being a suitable helper? And they go, yes, God knew that. Well, then why do this?
00:09:39
Steve Treichler
Because Adam didn't know that.
00:09:41
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:09:42
Steve Treichler
And God is a master teacher. He doesn't just tell, hey, Adam, you're alone. He brings every possible. If you'd have told Adam that, Adam would have said, what do you mean I'm alone? I got so many animals. I can't get any sleep. I got all these animals around, right? But one by one, he brings animals before him. He says this big gray thing with a long trunk. He says, obviously elephant. I don't really want to hang with the elephant, right? And pretty soon, what God does in his wisdom, he's a master teacher. He heightens Adam's awareness of his aloneness.
00:10:15
Steve Treichler
So then when he creates Eve, it's this huge deal, right? And he makes Eve out of Adam. Only thing in all creation. Only thing in all creation that is made not from the dust or from nothing, but she's made from part of him. And then God brings her to Adam from wherever he created her.
00:10:39
Steve Treichler
He brings her to them, and Adam then now speaks the first words. The man, you need to write this down. The first thing that Adam says to you is poetry, okay? So you might brush up on your poetry there a little bit. This is now bone on my bones and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman for she was taken out of man, right? And so what the unique thing here is, is that God's bringing things to her and he's named him. So he names her as well, woman, but it means out of man or whatever. Okay, and then it says this whole passage,
00:11:08
Steve Treichler
That is why, whoever wrote this, Moses certainly had influence whether he wrote it completely or not, but that is why he's speaking to the people who are reading this, a man leaves his father and mother and he is united to his wife and they become one flesh, right? Because of what God did with Adam and Eve. And then it says this passage, Adam and his wife were both naked and they felt no shame. There's that word, shame. It's very hard to even think of a world like that, right?
00:11:35
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:11:37
Steve Treichler
where they are, it is shameless, completely. And they both have this intimate relationship with God, both of them upon their creation, the first thing they see is God, right? And then they come together and it says they were naked. And I know it means physical nakedness, I get that, because later on in the passage, and we're gonna look at that in just a minute, that they realize they're naked and so they put clothes on. I understand that, but it means way more than that.
00:12:05
Steve Treichler
It means every area of their life, they held nothing back and there wasn't any shame. So if you wanna have one clue as to when the restoration of all things happens in the back of the book, pardon me, of those people who are either brand new to the Bible or or maybe and aren't yet a follower of Christ, but but I'm gonna tell you how it ends. It ends where it starts.
00:12:28
Steve Treichler
It says no longer will there be any curse. And then in Romans, excuse me, Revelation 21, it says multiple times that God will be with them and he will
The Serpent's Deception and the Onset of Shame
00:12:36
Steve Treichler
be their God. So what's heaven ultimately? It's a place where there's no curse, there is no shame. And we have this very face-to-face relationship once again with God and a united relationship with one another because of what happens in Genesis chapter three. And I won't go into all of it. Again, it's beyond our scope.
00:12:56
Steve Treichler
But the serpent comes along, deceives Eve. And before we get too hard on Eve, guys, Adam is right there. He's right there in this whole conversation because it says in verse six, when the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband who was with her
00:13:25
Steve Treichler
And he ate it. So what's he doing to this whole thing? He's like watching, flipping sports, you ESPN channels, or I don't know.
00:13:31
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:13:32
Steve Treichler
He's totally checked out. Larry Crabbe has written a great book. I've never read the book.
00:13:38
Ken Freire
The silence of Adam.
00:13:38
Steve Treichler
The Silence of Adam, it's a great cover. But he goes into that men, that's our thing. We will withdraw, we won't engage.
00:13:47
Steve Treichler
the sin of Adam here.
00:13:48
Steve Treichler
And he ah ah deliberately disobeys.
00:13:51
Ken Freire
Yeah, I remember reading that book.
00:13:52
Steve Treichler
Now, it's a great man book.
00:13:53
Ken Freire
And it was probably my first man book that I read. And he talks about the passivity. And I was like, it rocked my world. I was like, oh my gosh, no one's ever shown you that.
00:14:00
Steve Treichler
Yeah, exactly.
00:14:01
Ken Freire
But it was so true.
00:14:03
Steve Treichler
It's so true. So if you look back here, when the serpent's tempting them, he says, did God really say don't eat from any tree?
00:14:12
Steve Treichler
And of course he's trying to confuse them. And again, I know we're gonna talk more about this, but the way that Satan tempts us is never with an outright lie. There's certain elements that that is out to confuse or to change things, or it's half-truths. So he says, did God really say, don't eat from any tree in the garden? Well, no, he didn't say that. He said, you can't eat from one tree. And then if you if do, you'll die. And then and Satan, full bore lies, he says, you certainly won't die.
00:14:43
Steve Treichler
And he says, for when God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you'll be like God, knowing good and evil. Okay, so what's Satan saying here?
00:14:54
Steve Treichler
He says, because there's certain parts of this that are true and certain parts that aren't. For God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be opened, 100% true.
00:15:01
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:15:02
Steve Treichler
They'll see, who you're gonna see that, right? And that you'll be like God. Okay, Adam and Eve were thinking, listen, here we're creation, there's a line and there's creator. And Satan is gonna say, dude, if you just eat this, you go above the line. Now you're like God. That's a lie. That's a totally lie, a total lie. And then he says, and you will know good and evil, and that is true. So it's like, ah, right? And she of course gets tempted by this. She sees it, she desires it, and she takes it.
00:15:38
Steve Treichler
Okay now Here's what happens. They immediately it says then the eyes of both of this is verse 7 then the eyes of both of them were opened and They realized they were naked But now they're not not naked without shame This time they're naked and they want to cover it up.
00:16:00
Steve Treichler
That's a shame does right shame Shame always wants us to cover it up to lie about it
00:16:01
Ken Freire
I was, I was, I was, I was...
00:16:07
Steve Treichler
And it says, so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverage from themselves. Next verse. Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day.
00:16:22
Steve Treichler
And again, Ken, this is kind of my thing. There's no wasted, these images are not wasted.
00:16:28
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:16:28
Steve Treichler
What's happening? God is going to be walking And he was this was a normal time when they would walk together when in the cool of the day, the evening after you've done your day's work, you got a nasty in your hand and you're walking and you're walking at a slow pace and you're just flat out enjoying one another and.
00:16:51
Steve Treichler
When God would come and they would hear that, they would run to them, kind of the way my children would run to me when they were little and tackle me, you know? When they got older, you know, I'd walk in, they'd go, hey, dad, you know, whatever, or even his kind of grunt, you know? but but But when they were a a little, they came running, you know? Them and their golden retriever were all tackled me and we'd wrestle. And that's the way normally it was when God would show up.
00:17:15
Steve Treichler
God shows up in the cool of day, gonna talk. This time it says, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
00:17:27
Steve Treichler
Now, a lot of people looked at this passage and said, you know, I think the serpent was right.
00:17:30
Ken Freire
Ha, ha.
00:17:31
Steve Treichler
The Adam and Eve, they did die. they they A death came in, but that was gonna be quite a long time later. My contention is they died right there.
00:17:41
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:17:41
Steve Treichler
What was true life A relationship with God, unfettered, unhindered, no sin, no shame, just talking about anything like little children. And now it goes from that to hiding. And that's the death. Death is right there. And it's probably the most tragic verse in the Bible where they hide. And God calls to the man, he says, where are you? Again,
00:18:08
Steve Treichler
God knows full well where he is. It's like a, you know, like a pregnant woman trying to hide behind a stop sign. Not gonna be, it's the guys when I can say that I'm not gonna get any emails, but you know, God knows where he is.
00:18:20
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:18:21
Steve Treichler
But he wants Adam to fess up what's going on. And he says, I heard you in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid. And then Adam says, ah God says to him, who told you that you were naked?
The Curse and Its Impact on Relationships
00:18:36
Steve Treichler
And there was nothing wrong with this before. And all of a sudden now, and he says, have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from? This is a yes or no question. Have you eaten? It's like your kid. are Are those Oreo cookies on your, Oreo crumbs on your face from the cookie jar, right? It's a yes or no question. And it's very, very telling what Adam says next.
00:19:02
Steve Treichler
The first two words out of Adam's mouth are the woman. Have you eaten from the tree? I commanded you not. The woman. But the ultimate, the ultimate diss is the third word. He says, the woman you put here with me,
00:19:19
Steve Treichler
dude, Adam
00:19:21
Ken Freire
He blame shifts and then accuses.
00:19:24
Steve Treichler
Blame-shifting accuses you you you gave faulty. This is this is on you God. This isn't on me I've had a mentor for about 30 some years and he always loves to tell me Whenever you can't handle the shame you always move to blame You always move to blame Because it's it most certainly it's not all my fault I mean I was doing everything right and and this and I was doing everything fine All of a sudden God you came in and said there was a problem brought this woman and now look what happened
00:19:54
Ken Freire
Yeah, and you made me aware of it. You made me aware that I was alone. You made me aware of all these issues.
00:19:58
Steve Treichler
You gotta take a lot of responsibility here, God. Okay, that's what Adam's saying.
00:20:04
Steve Treichler
And then Eve does a little bit better job when God confronts her and says, what is this you have done? And she says, the serpent deceived me and I ate, right? So at least she fesses up that date.
00:20:17
Steve Treichler
And then comes the curse, right? And then the curse comes first to the serpent. And we see in that, in Genesis 3.15, the first declaration of the gospel.
00:20:27
Steve Treichler
And it says, I'll put enmity between you and the woman between your offspring and hers, he will crush your head and you will strike his heel. Right? And so if you're just reading the story for the first time, by the way, you're thinking to yourself, there's gonna come an offspring from the woman and he's gonna take off the serpent. And it says, in fact, that this offspring will crush your head. Well, she does have an offspring. Her name's Cain.
00:21:54
Steve Treichler
And then Adam, he gives the curse and he says, your cursed is the ground and you're going to die. do not live in the right place right now. We live in a place where we were created for perfect relationships and meaningful work and not fruitless
Shame and Redemption Through Jesus
00:22:12
Steve Treichler
work. And we are in a world where we have no perfect relationships. Even as a follower of Jesus Christ, I only have one half of one perfect relationship and that's his to me.
00:22:22
Steve Treichler
It's not, I'm not even perfect in my relationship with him. And my work is good. It's still meaningful, but it is filled with toil. It is filled with fruitlessness. Okay, so if you just follow, if you just keep going through the story of how this spreads through sin and what sin does in people's lives is it moves them towards shame and the shame then covers Dude, all kinds of things. I mean, you can just walk through the story of the scripture all the way till you get to King David. And King David has an adulterous affair, but he doesn't fess up about it. He ends up committing murder to cover it up. Why? Can't handle the shame you move to blame, and you will do whatever you can to get out from underneath it.
00:23:08
Steve Treichler
And so I think in order to really understand like, where does shame come from? What's the point of it all? Genesis, I think is really clear that the there wasn't it the Bible makes real clear the man and his wife were both naked and had no shame. And then in Genesis three, they do, they have shame.
00:23:28
Steve Treichler
So I just find that to be fascinating. If you wanna start to unpack some of that and start to move backwards in that, I think you need to start there. I'll stop there and let you take our conversation where you wanna go.
00:23:36
Ken Freire
Yeah, Trike, I mean, you know me. I love whenever I get a chance to hear you just unpack scripture and just the nuances of it. And I want to look at that because at the beginning, you said they were naked and unashamed.
00:23:50
Ken Freire
They were shameless in this section.
00:23:53
Steve Treichler
Right.
00:23:53
Ken Freire
To me, it infers that there was this vulnerability that no matter what happens, right when I think about people being naked, there's always these insecurities.
00:24:03
Ken Freire
ah You're always looking, but now it's just like there's none of that. Walk us through a little bit of like, what does that unashamed look like? Because you said earlier, none of us know what that feels like. We always live in this constant place of shame.
00:24:04
Steve Treichler
right yeah yeah and I think there's the problem in scripture at least is you don't get many views of it right we get chapter 2 of Genesis
00:24:22
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:24:24
Steve Treichler
We get Revelation 21 and 22, where there's a little bit talking about God's relationship and this beautiful wedding ceremony that's gonna happen, and there's a lot of metaphors that are used. But then there's also the person of Jesus Christ. And he felt absolutely no shame at all until he did. But the shame that he felt was not because he was deficient, it's because he took our shame.
00:24:53
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:24:53
Steve Treichler
See, one of the things I think a lot of folks like, how do I get over my shame? I have the shame about what I did or I have this sin issue or whatever. And I think you have got put it in there that shame is a byproduct of sin.
00:25:07
Steve Treichler
And the answer to sin is not don't sin. Okay, I'm not advocating for it, go ahead.
00:25:14
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:25:15
Steve Treichler
That's not what I'm saying. But the answer to sin is Jesus. Jesus is the answer to sin. Jesus is the savior. In theology, they talk about, you know, what happened at the cross of Christ. There's a lot that happened. But there's two big things, one of which in Protestant circles, we we we spent a lot of time on. And that's what we would call either propitiation or justification, or it's the debt repayment. And hey, listen, that's amazing. I'm not downplaying it at all. It's what the Protestant Reformation was founded on and that Christ paid my penalty. It wasn't because it works.
00:25:51
Steve Treichler
That's very true. But there's something else that Protestants have been a little bit, especially if you come from more of a Bible-leaving, maybe a little more conservative view on scripture than those who would have a liberal view. It's the word expiation. And how expiation got a bad name is when they redid the RSV version of the King James, they got rid of the word propitiation and they put in the word expiation. That's how they interpreted it.
00:26:18
Steve Treichler
In other words, expiation means that Christ, it's used in the Old Testament to talk about the goat that was brought and then they would lay their hands on it. They wouldn't kill it. They would just send it off and it would take all of Israel's shame and guilt and it would then live with it, right?
00:26:34
Steve Treichler
And it's really a bizarre thing. Like, how does a goat, what is it? Well, it's a metaphor for talking about what Christ did, right?
00:26:38
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:26:41
Steve Treichler
When Christ goes to the cross, he pays the penalty this is something I think we've pushed aside because for years people who come from the liberal persuasion would say, Jesus didn't take our punishment first. And that's divine child abuse. That's the father beating on the son. It's like, no, the son willingly lays down his life. It's not divine child abuse. He lays it down for that. And he does take the wrath of God for us.
00:27:06
Steve Treichler
And he also takes expiation, which is the taking of our shame, which is he was the one that they put hands on the goat. Hebrews 12, right? For the joy set before him, Christ endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the Father, right?
00:27:30
Steve Treichler
So it's really important that I think we as Christians don't try to say, I need to beat my shame. I just need to think differently about myself. And it's like, yeah, it's only going to get you so far because the real answer to sin and taking care of it is in Christ. And he completely takes the shame.
00:27:49
Steve Treichler
He takes it all.
Peter's Redemption and the Gospel's Power
00:27:51
Steve Treichler
We're going through the book of Isaiah right now, or kind of, we're spending about 12 weeks looking at select passages. And I, last week, I got a chance to preach through Isaiah six.
00:28:00
Steve Treichler
And Isaiah 6 is just this amazing metaphor where it's the call of Isaiah. But Isaiah, after he sees this beautiful picture of God, looks at himself and says, I'm toast, man. I'm a sinner. And I don't know why he picks his unclean lips, must have had a potty mouth or he was a liar or who knows what. But he says, I'm a man of unclean lips and I love among a people of unclean lips. And one of the seraphim comes and grabs a live coal touches his lips and it says, see your sin has been atoned for and your guilt has been taken away.
00:28:35
Steve Treichler
Boom! There it is. Both propitiation or justification or debt repayment and your guilt is gone.
00:28:40
Ken Freire
Ha ha ha.
00:28:43
Steve Treichler
Somebody took it. And so I think Genesis starts to lead us a certain way and then the rest of scripture unfolds it, that we've got a problem that we owe a debt to God, but we also have this lingering, a a constant sense of not measuring up. We have shame and guilt upon us. And I think there's a lot of good strategies to to to think about that and to think accurately, to know who we are in Christ. Those are really important things, but at the end of the day, Jesus is the one.
00:29:13
Steve Treichler
who just flat out took it. And just flat out removes it from you. So anyway.
00:29:20
Ken Freire
Yeah. And I just think about that. And it's like, the more I can remember that he took away my guilt and shame, the more I could live in freedom.
00:29:31
Steve Treichler
100%. And i i I think it then, the trick for me, I'll just speak for myself as that.
00:29:36
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:29:38
Steve Treichler
I think we like the arrangement Jesus died for all of my sins until the day I came to him. But from then on it's kind of up to me. I mean I'm a different person now and I need to be a certain way. And somehow there's still within us this desire to, you know, salvation by grace but you know, sanctification by works, or I want to grow in my relationship with God by what I do. And again, the scripture wants us to do things, that's not the point. But when I, am I really just trying to undo my shame by making my, you know, my good things be better than my bad things? And and that's just a very dangerous road to go down because that's not the pathway scripture talks about in order to overcome shame.
00:30:31
Steve Treichler
Let me give you another example. I know I'm blabbing on here, but whatever. You can edit this out if you want. But it's fascinating to me that in the Apostle Peter's life, there were two moments of extreme shame. At least the way I read scripture and and Peter's story. One was when he just got done calling Jesus the Messiah and Jesus says, you're the rock. I'm going to build the church upon you. You're my guy.
00:31:00
Steve Treichler
Here we go, giddy up, and then he says, hey, by the way, I'm gonna be arrested, I'm gonna be tried, and they're gonna mock me, and then they're gonna kill me. And Peter pulls him aside privately, says, and he rebukes him, he says, Lord, I will never let that happen to you.
00:31:17
Steve Treichler
And Jesus says, get behind me, Satan, right? I mean, give me a minute.
00:31:22
Ken Freire
That's the last thing you want to be called by God.
00:31:24
Steve Treichler
Yeah, right,
00:31:25
Steve Treichler
And it's get behind me, Satan, right? And it's kind of like, can you imagine Peter at the dinner table with the other apostles? Hey, hey, everybody, let's share our highs and lows. Peter, well, Jesus called me the rock.
00:31:36
Steve Treichler
Well, what's your low for the day? Jesus called me Satan.
00:31:42
Steve Treichler
You know, I mean, it was quite a moment there, right? Highs and lows for Peter. And the other one was at the end, so it says that when Jesus is arrested and all of the other apostles, they just run off, right? Except for two, John and Peter, and they kind of follow at a distance, and Peter ends up denying Jesus three times, okay? And in the book of Luke, it says that when he did it the third time,
00:32:10
Steve Treichler
that the Lord turned and looked straight at Peter. They were near enough, you know, 20 feet, 20, whoever knows, that they could make eye contact over the light of the fire. And Jesus is looking right at Peter. And then it said, Peter said, and he went outside and went bitterly. Now those are the most shameful experiences, right? Now, what can the gospel do for you to change that?
00:32:37
Steve Treichler
He didn't fix either one of those. He wasn't able to go and undo it. But something happened to Peter and he realized that Jesus Christ took his shame. Why do I know that? Well, because both of those accounts were private. There's only two people on planet earth that knew they happened. Peter and Jesus. And Peter had overcome his shame enough to tell the gospel writers, hey man, you should include this, this is an important part.
00:33:04
Steve Treichler
That to me says, whoa, that now looking at my own righteousness, my own value because of what someone was willing to pay for me gives me value and worth way more than just my behavior or lack of behavior. And and blows my mind that he would be willing to say, hey, Luke, if you're gonna write a good account of the gospel, you you should include this. And Luke's like, dude, that's good stuff, that's going in, you know?
00:33:28
Steve Treichler
And so to me that shows where the victory over shame, it's a long process. It's an everyday battle, but it has to go to Jesus Christ. Otherwise we're done because you we'll just look at ourselves.
00:33:42
Ken Freire
Trike, as I think about that whole story of Peter, and how the gospel is just needed. I've never even thought about that. Like how you said, these were private.
00:33:53
Ken Freire
Peter needed to tell them to put it into the gospels. I'm obviously inspired by the Holy Spirit.
00:33:56
Steve Treichler
Yeah.
00:33:58
Ken Freire
But how much the shame has been removed is so incredible.
00:34:03
Steve Treichler
And I do think that's another big piece to it too. I think Peter not only told the gospel, right think Peter told others about this.
00:34:10
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:34:10
Steve Treichler
And I do think that's a lot of the victory over us. In essence, when we keep the shame hidden, when we don't bring it out to share with others, in essence, we're kind of agreeing with it that it defines us.
00:34:26
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:34:28
Steve Treichler
And we just say, no, not doing that. It doesn't get to define me. It's a bad thing. These are not, I'm sure if Peter were alive and you and I were to say, Peter, let me tell you, I gotta tell you about my sin. Peter would listen and he'd go, you got nothing. Sorry bro, nice try. Keep trying. You got nothing compared to what I have done. And yet I've experienced the grace of God in all of this. And so I think that is an important part to shame.
00:34:56
Steve Treichler
because shame in essence is us holding onto something that Jesus has taken and wants us to acknowledge that he has taken.
00:35:07
Ken Freire
And the reality is, I just love how you just said that because the reality is many times we don't acknowledge that.
00:35:11
Ken Freire
We want to keep it. We want to hold onto it and say, no, no, this is my identity. This is who I am. And I deserve to punish myself this way.
00:35:21
Steve Treichler
It's every day I wake up with that. Every day nobody wakes up and said, to know, today I'm just going to be a screw up and I'm just going to, you know, no, every one of us wants to have people say to us, good job.
00:35:31
Steve Treichler
And there's nothing wrong with that necessarily until that becomes a thing that defines us. But when that happens, we actually don't even realize it, but we're, we're actually taking as, as scripture talks about the praise of men over the praise of God.
00:35:36
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:35:48
Steve Treichler
And it's like, okay. Yeah. Ouch.
Gender Differences in Experiencing Shame
00:35:51
Steve Treichler
So yeah.
00:35:53
Steve Treichler
Good stuff.
00:35:54
Ken Freire
What are some other ways that men would show their shame come out? Like, for example, I think some verbiage or mental thoughts that I have many times is, well, I need to prove myself or I'm going to prove it to these people that I can do better, right? And that's just shame talking, right? Because I feel like I'm not adequate enough. What's other things that you've heard people say that could kind of expose, hey, you're living in shame?
00:36:19
Steve Treichler
Yeah, I think I'm gonna be a little bit overly generalistic here, but if if you look at the creation of Adam and Eve, and then if you take that and then you, I'm just gonna use two passages, that one, i and then I'm gonna go to Ephesians five.
00:36:24
Ken Freire
That's fine.
00:36:34
Steve Treichler
But where you see Adam was given a, Adam had a relationship with God, very intimate, he was given a job, right, and then he was given relationship and then they work together, right? But whereas Eve was given ah ah relationship with God and then she was given a relationship with Adam and then that was in the context of a job of working in the garden with him, right? So I think that explains a little bit about the difference between men and women, that there's something in men that is deep we want to accomplish. We want someone to slap us on the ass and say, good job, right?
00:37:17
Ken Freire
yeah
00:37:18
Steve Treichler
There's just something within us, and it's not a bad thing, right? Good job. And there's something about the nature of a woman who, of course, they want that one, but what they really would rather have is someone say, man, you know what? You are fascinating to me. You are worthy of my attention and affection just to hear you. And so that's why I think that there's no mistake why God wants men to speak the language primarily to women that ministers to them, and that is love.
00:37:47
Steve Treichler
which means adoration or caring for them or moving towards them or seeing them worthy of your time and affection, right? And for women to look at their guy, their husband, and to say, you know what? You have what it takes. I'm proud of you. Keep going. I respect you, right? That's not a mistake. Now, if you unpack that then, what men are tremendously therefore most afraid of is failure or public failure.
00:38:14
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:38:15
Steve Treichler
So I wake up every day and I'm afraid of being exposed for the fraud that I am or the, I don't have what it takes or these kinds of things. And therefore I will do whatever I can to to to not let you see that or cover up things, right? I know this was my case in college when I would, I'm not a great writer, never have been.
00:38:38
Steve Treichler
And I would get bees on my, you know, whatever written, you know, papers or whatever. But what I would do is I would wait till the very end and work on, I'm like pulling on later. And in my mind, then I would say, well, I'd worked on it the night before, but it's, uh, I didn't matter. When I was in my doctorate work, I had worked on something for a solid three months and got a B on it. I'm just not a very good writer. Uh, and it was like,
00:39:06
Steve Treichler
I don't have what it takes when it comes not to get a I got a B, you know bees get degrees, right, you know, so that's fine, but it it it was just kind of like oh It hurt.
00:39:09
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:39:16
Steve Treichler
I don't have what it takes us I thought I did a great job and it turns out I did an average or you know job and so I think That's for us as men what we're really vulnerable to when we don't get the respect we think we deserve or if we're overinflated and how we think we are and we We will run, we will hide, we will lie, we will twist facts, we'll do whatever we can to try to get that. And yeah, this is where we just have to go back to the gospel and just say, the gospel, I am enough.
Overcoming Shame with the Gospel
00:39:49
Steve Treichler
In the gospel, Jesus Christ, as inadequate as I am, saw that I was valuable enough to die for me. And he did it willingly.
00:39:57
Steve Treichler
And so but it okay, so I've been preaching this to everybody for 30 some years I got to preach it to myself every morning because I wake up the next morning and I'm filled with all the same stuff So I just got to do it again, you know Yeah
00:40:05
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:40:12
Ken Freire
You know, Trike, I remember when I was younger, I had to go through counseling and I have this whole thing on a different podcast episode of just like how this counselor helped me. But one story that I remember the counselor told me, I didn't have verbiage to this. Now a lot of people use it. You use it like preaching the gospel to yourself. But I remember the counselor was like, look in the mirror, look at yourself. And I remember all I saw was this helpless, pathetic little boy.
00:40:37
Steve Treichler
Ah, sure.
00:40:38
Ken Freire
And I was just like, I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy enough. No matter how hard I try, I'll mess up. And he's like, I want you to tell yourself every single day, what has God done for you through the gospel? And I did that every day until one day I remember waking up and like, oh my gosh, God truly cared for me enough to die for me. And he took that shame. He took all this. He took that little boy and made him a man.
00:41:04
Steve Treichler
Amen. and And ultimately, here's the crazy thing. It's hard to say this, but when we're struggling with shame and we are refusing to let it go, it really is a sense of pride.
00:41:16
Steve Treichler
And I know that sounds like we got to be kidding me. I think very little of myself. And it's like, yeah, you're trying to say, if I measure to a certain place,
00:41:21
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:41:27
Steve Treichler
then I would accept me, and then God would accept me. And the reality is, that's the whole point of the gospel. That's the whole point. I've talked to people and said, well, I'm just not good enough to be a Christian. It's like, you've got the point. That is exactly the point. But that's the most difficult point for us. I love what C.S. Lewis says about this. He says, if you proclaim the gospel to others, but you have a hard time forgiving yourself,
00:41:53
Steve Treichler
you have to realize that you, and he uses a British term, but he says, you are holding yourself up to a higher tribunal than God himself does. Like if he declares, if he declares that you are not guilty, you're holy, and all the Ephesians, one thing, you're holy and blameless, you're righteous in his sight, all this stuff, and we're unable to say that to ourselves, it's saying, you're actually, you have a higher standard than what God has, because in Christ, this is who you are.
00:42:22
Steve Treichler
That helps me. the Lord is patient with us. Your podcast is not a one and done. It's a constant battle.
00:42:28
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:42:30
Steve Treichler
And it's a constant thing to be reminding ourselves this and constantly be moving towards it. And I know there are a lot of cases, I know as in your story, you're victims of something and for someone then to tell you, part of the problem now is pride because You had viewed yourself as one way and now something happened and you truly were a victim of that.
00:42:51
Steve Treichler
You didn't have anything to do with it.
00:42:52
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:42:54
Steve Treichler
But whenever we make that thing define us again now, it's like, no, that doesn't get to define you. And it's really hard. I know for folks to hear that. It's not like, wait, what are you saying that I'm somehow contributing to this?
00:43:06
Steve Treichler
And it's like, well, it's some, but I'm not saying anything about the abuse. The abuse is abuse, right?
00:43:13
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:43:14
Ken Freire
Well, and I think I remember reading that C.S. Lewis thing and thinking about myself, because I used i to struggle. And if I'm not careful, I still struggle with condemnation. That's like the one thing I have to be very careful of.
00:43:25
Ken Freire
But very similar, where I was like, I remember a mentor of mine saying, will you just trust that God can do this and not be? And he called me out straight up. He's like, and not be prideful. And I was like, prideful?
00:43:36
Ken Freire
How can I be prideful?
00:43:37
Steve Treichler
Yeah.
00:43:37
Ken Freire
And I started blaming.
00:43:39
Steve Treichler
Yeah.
00:43:39
Ken Freire
I started blaming, I started doing all these things.
00:43:40
Steve Treichler
Yeah,
00:43:41
Ken Freire
And in that moment, I saw the shame coming out. And like, I was doing everything that that Adam did. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is just another form of pride that I just like repented of.
00:43:52
Ken Freire
And I was like, I need to trust that if God finished the work, he finished it.
00:43:57
Steve Treichler
yeah that's beautiful. And it really is. I do think a lot of, especially as men, we have a real hard time acknowledging that we're wrong, right?
00:44:05
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:44:06
Steve Treichler
And I think some of the most freeing things is when Jesus says, when you see something wrong with somebody else, here's the deal, I want you first to take the log out of your own eye. And then, so that, he says, so that, you can see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. He wants you to get engaged there, but what he wants it to be is also an opportunity for us to look inward.
The Role of Gospel Friendships
00:44:27
Steve Treichler
And the gospel says,
00:44:30
Steve Treichler
I'm completely okay in Jesus Christ. My sin has been paid for. My shame has been removed from me. So I can look inside and it's scary to look in there, but it doesn't get to define me. Jesus defines me. And it's still scary. I'm not going to say it's not. Nobody likes that. Nobody says, Oh, please, please tell me all my faults today. But it allows me to say, I can, I can go there. I can be like Peter and say, Hey, dude,
00:44:57
Steve Treichler
This is what happened. It's the most shameful thing in my life. But I want you to know it because I want people to know for generations, the wonder and freedom of the gospel.
00:45:07
Ken Freire
we finish up, there is this one thread that you've been talking about that we've kind of alluded to, but it's this concept of like intimacy with God and like this deep relationship where you could be completely vulnerable. Like when you think about Genesis, when he created us, he breathed life. There was this deep intimate thing.
00:45:24
Steve Treichler
Deep, right?
00:45:25
Ken Freire
Same thing with creating Eve. Then, even if I think about the story of Peter and when he, the rooster crows, he looked at Peter in the eye, like there's this intimate moment that was happening.
00:45:37
Steve Treichler
Right.
00:45:38
Ken Freire
And then in Revelation, right, it talks about that God is going to be with us. Deep, intimate thing.
00:45:43
Steve Treichler
Right.
00:45:43
Ken Freire
Talk to guys who right now that they may be struggling in their shame. And they're like, I hear guys talking about and the church talking about intimacy with God, but I just have too much shame. How do I bring the gospel into that so that I can really experience that intimacy that people talk about? Because they've never experienced it before.
00:46:06
Steve Treichler
Yeah, it's a fantastic question. Probably another whole podcast, but long and short of it I would say is the first way to get over your hang up with your shame is to, and I don't, I use a phrase, Ken, you know about you've been in our church.
00:46:25
Steve Treichler
I just say you have to have gospel friendships.
00:46:27
Ken Freire
Yep.
00:46:27
Steve Treichler
Now, if that's a counselor, so be it. i don't, but just someone in your life that you can walk some things through. I went through, after the death of my father, I went through some real grief things that brought out extreme anger in me. And I just had to have a gospel friend for about three months every other week, we'd go hang and have a beer and I would cry every time in my beer. But I had to have someone that I could expose it to. And sometimes,
00:46:54
Steve Treichler
That can be someone one you you know real well. It doesn't necessarily have to be. It just needs to be someone who's willing to listen and not, you know, try to fix you. They just need to listen and let you kind of want it. Because otherwise, once the shame is built up in your mind, I would say getting it out, confessing it or talking about it is half the battle. It's not all of it.
00:47:15
Steve Treichler
but it's a good half. Until then, that shame will keep you from any intimacy with anyone, not just God, right? Because ah ah I'm not letting you really see the real me.
00:47:25
Steve Treichler
I'm not letting you see what's really going on there.
00:47:26
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:47:28
Steve Treichler
And once you start to share some of these things with a gospel friend, someone who deeply understands the gospel and cares and loves you, and they're not perfect, of course, I'm not asking to be perfect, but you share some of these things and they reply with you loving and
00:47:42
Steve Treichler
and it's not the end of the world to them, you start to realize, oh. the gospel really does work like this. And it starts to build up. And I think that carries off then into your relationship with God. And you start to realize, God, I can talk openly and honestly about some of these things that are really on my heart and on my mind, because I've seen the way you've worked in people as well to to get that. So that would be my encouragement is just get it out of the darkness,
Closing Remarks and Resources
00:48:07
Steve Treichler
bring it into the light. and and And it's not pretty necessarily, but that's the first step.
00:48:12
Ken Freire
Yeah, I love it. Trek, I remember many times we've gone out and I spilled all my thoughts and fears and shame to you and how you treated me with a lot of grace.
00:48:25
Ken Freire
And those were beautiful moments for me. think of one when when I talk to you about one of the issues with my dad of me bringing my stuff to him just being so scared to do it and and how you just walked me through that season of life.
00:48:33
Steve Treichler
Yeah.
00:48:40
Ken Freire
And you were a gospel friend in those moments, truly.
00:48:41
Steve Treichler
Well, thanks. YouTube, bro.
00:48:45
Ken Freire
So, thank you for that, man. Thank you for everything you're doing and still doing at Hope Community Church. And I hope that the people who are listening to this can find freedom. Like, Jesus took away the shame. Like, he took it away and it's going to be awesome. Trike, for those who might be like, oh man, I want to listen to more of Trike's sermons or just hear more about Trike, what's the best way to reach out to you?
00:49:06
Steve Treichler
Yeah, it's great. I i do preach. I preach about 20 times a year now, so there's younger, better-looking people that are running our different locations. I do preach at the different locations, and you can go to our website, HopeCC.com, and go over to the resources section and look on that if you want to do that. And I do have a podcast on the Book of Romans.
00:49:27
Steve Treichler
is called Romans untangled. It's a finished work now. I think I did four seasons And they're about half an hour try to do it You can if you if you work somewhere about half an hour away or 15 minutes away You could do an episode on the way there back or let's be honest people are listening at a two-time speed anyway, so I always do so Yeah
00:49:45
Ken Freire
I do.
00:49:47
Steve Treichler
So, you know, it could be done in like a car ride or something like that. and I tried to make them make them short. It's it's written for someone who maybe the book of Romans would be intimidating. or or And so the whole point of the podcast was it's it's not like this deep on.
00:50:02
Steve Treichler
I mean, we had some pretty deep stuff, but it's it's written for people who maybe have no understanding of the Bible whatsoever.
00:50:03
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:50:08
Steve Treichler
And so and yet I've talked to people who have master's degree and scripture and and they like it. And so that's been kind of fun. So you can check that out. It's on anywhere you get podcasts. Romans untangled.
00:50:18
Ken Freire
Yeah, I love it. I listened to it. It's been great. I loved every time you went through Romans. I'm like, oh, you finally made it into a podcast. So it was fantastic. Well, Trike, thank you so much for being on this podcast.
00:50:29
Steve Treichler
Thank you, bro.
00:50:30
Ken Freire
Thank you for Romans and Tango. And thank you for everything you're doing at Hope. For those of you who are listening, and if you are ever in the Twin Cities, Minnesota area and are we trying to look for a home church, I would encourage you, top church to go to, Hope Community Church.
00:50:44
Ken Freire
Check it out. Amazing, amazing leaders and pastors there.
00:50:47
Steve Treichler
I can't get any better endorsement than from Ken, so appreciate it, brother.
00:50:51
Ken Freire
Appreciate it. All right, for all of you who are listening, hope you guys have a great day and God bless.
00:50:55
Steve Treichler
Thank you, thank you.