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The Gift of Weakness: Why God Breaks Strong Men (w/ Eric Schumacher)
166 Plays5 months ago
Why do so many Christian men feel like they’re failing — at work, in marriage, in their faith — but still refuse to ask for help?
In this raw and deeply moving episode, Ken Freire sits down with pastor, author, and counselor Eric Schumacher, who shares the story of how shame, perfectionism, and pressure to perform nearly crushed his ministry. From childhood insecurities to ministry burnout, Eric thought being strong meant never showing weakness — until one night he broke down completely… and God showed up in the wreckage.
Eric opens up about his “dark night of the soul,” how pastoral pressure cost him connection with his family, and why Jesus’ weakness, not worldly strength, is the model for true Christian manhood.
Whether you’re exhausted from trying to hold it all together, or silently wondering if you’re failing as a man — this episode may be the turning point you didn’t know you needed.
⏱️ EPISODE TIMESTAMPS
00:00 — Why men hide weakness
01:20 — Meet Eric Schumacher
03:00 — Childhood perfectionism and approval addiction
05:45 — Ministry ambition and impure motives
08:00 — Burnout, anxiety, and the collapse of control
10:05 — The night Eric tore his Bible apart
13:00 — Grace shows up through his wife and elders
16:00 — How ministry hurt his marriage and parenting
19:30 — Numbing, anger, and checking out
23:00 — Why Christian men fear appearing weak
28:00 — Jesus’ model of godly weakness
33:30 — God's power made perfect in weakness
38:00 — Why Paul boasted in his shame
48:00 — Weakness kills passivity and pride
57:00 — One step to embrace your weakness today
1:03:00 — Final thoughts + how to connect with Eric
🔥 TOP QUOTES
“I thought being a strong pastor meant never being weak… until weakness saved me.”“God doesn’t work through your image of strength. He works through your dependence.”“If we can’t admit we’re weak, we’ll never experience that God is with us.”💥 Key Takeaways:
- You don’t need to be the strongest man in the room — just the most surrendered.
- Numbing out, anger, and passivity often come from unacknowledged shame.
- Jesus wasn’t Instagram-worthy — He was despised, rejected, and weak by design.
- True strength looks like admitting you need help and trusting God to show up.
- Weakness isn’t the end of your story — it’s where the Gospel begins.
📲 Follow Eric Schumacher
Instagram / Twitter: @emschumacher
Book: The Good Gift of Weakness
Recommended
Transcript
Intro
Why do men struggle to ask for help?
00:00:34
Ken Freire
Why is it so hard for men to ask for help? Why do you feel like you're not holding everything together, your job, your marriage, your emotions?
00:00:44
Ken Freire
You feel like you're failing as a man. For years, believed that weakness was something to hide, something to overcome. But what if God sees it differently? What if the very thing you're ashamed of, your struggle, your sin, your fear, your limits, is actually where God wants to show up the most?
Eric Shoemaker's journey of embracing weakness.
00:01:04
Ken Freire
Today's guest, Eric Shoemaker, is a pastor of pastors, author, and counselor who thought he had to perform his way into purpose. Until weakness broke him open and changed everything.
00:01:15
Ken Freire
In this episode, we're going to talk about why Christian men struggle to admit weakness and how the good gift of weakness might be the most freeing truth you've never heard.
00:01:27
Ken Freire
Stick around. This conversation could be the turning point you didn't know you needed. Eric, thank you so much, man, for being on the podcast today. I'm super excited. think you and both are witty individuals that we'll need to contain ourselves, but it's going awesome. It's my show, so we can do whatever we want. It's going awesome.
00:01:43
Ken Freire
But thank you for being on the show today, man.
00:01:45
Eric Schumacher
Oh, it's great to be here, Ken. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
00:01:50
Ken Freire
Yeah, Eric, you know, when we when we first started talking, I started reading your book, you sent it to me. And I instantly was like engaged. There's a lot of people I talked to that I'm like, okay, you know, it's cool. But you, you have such a profound way to share your vulnerabilities in a witty fashion.
00:02:07
Ken Freire
But I know you didn't start there. Right. It's kind of been a process that God has been really breaking you from and molding you.
00:02:10
Eric Schumacher
No.
00:02:15
Ken Freire
So walk us through like your early life in ministry and how did God start to utilize you in that fashion?
Challenges in ministry and personal realizations.
00:02:21
Eric Schumacher
Yeah, that's a great question. I think from a very early age, I believed that I had to be the best at things if I was to matter and have any significance.
00:02:32
Eric Schumacher
I can trace that back to kindergarten, looking at where the teacher taped up papers on the wall where we got stickers for assignments and realizing I had a lot of stickers, but I didn't have as many stickers as the person who had the most.
00:02:40
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:02:45
Eric Schumacher
And that bothered me. You know, I wanted to be the person who the end of the day had the most stickers. And that followed me into ministry. I think even my choice to become a pastor, you know, from the early days of, you know, in college, just kind of growing into my faith, learning about some great things about the gospel and the glory of God and who Christ is and just really growing in my faith. But at the same time, having this feeling of like, if I want to be, I want matter in the world and if I want to matter to God,
00:03:18
Eric Schumacher
then I need to be doing the best things, the best that anybody does them. And even my choice, I think, to become a pastor originally came from, well, this is the best thing a person can do for the kingdom of God, which I don't think is true.
00:03:33
Eric Schumacher
But that drove me as I went into seminary and then as I came out of seminary thinking, you know, our hearts are these mixed bags of desires, even as Christians. And there was part of me that wanted to glorify God and help people see the goodness of Christ. And there was part of me that thought,
00:03:51
Eric Schumacher
man, if I'm a great preacher and I do this really, really well, then I'll become a big deal. And I'll have a big church and people will know me for my preaching, and I'll be a recognized alum for my seminary and all these things that are really shameful to admit. They're just hard to say now.
00:04:10
Eric Schumacher
But those are things that were going on in my heart. And that's what drove me.
00:04:15
Ken Freire
Yeah, well, it's fascinating because I remember the first time I had to recognize that we have these mixed bag of desires. Right, because it's so hard. You think that a lot, especially when I was younger in ministry, I thought, no, no, I have such a pure desire to do certain things for God.
00:04:32
Ken Freire
But when I started to kind of peel the onion back, I started realizing, just like you, was like, oh, I want the accolades. I want the fame. I want people to recognize me as the one to come to.
00:04:43
Ken Freire
You know, I used to call it the Savior's Complex.
00:04:43
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
00:04:46
Eric Schumacher
Yeah, totally.
00:04:48
Ken Freire
And I realized that and I was like, oh, gosh, that's not what God wants.
00:04:52
Eric Schumacher
Yeah,
00:04:52
Ken Freire
But for you, Eric, how did God start to reveal that to you and start show you, actually, that's not what it's about?
00:05:00
Eric Schumacher
think part of it was not allowing me those dreams to come true. think part of it was failure. And even though had lot of good response and appreciation from people that I was shepherding, from the congregations I was still hear from people from the early days of ministry who were like, you were a great pastor and we loved you and we're grateful for what you did in our life.
00:05:24
Eric Schumacher
But I didn't feel like I was succeeding. And then, you know, in my second church that I pastored, the early days were just filled with conflict that I still don't understand why it was.
00:05:37
Eric Schumacher
And I'm certain that a lot of people involved in it. We kind went through a long, slow kind of church split, and there wasn't necessarily one issue that happened over. I'm sure a lot of it was as a young pastor, I didn't know how to lead very well, and I didn't know how to respond to conflict and probably went too quick on some things. There were certainly a few bad actors who I think
Impact of ministry stress on family life.
00:06:00
Eric Schumacher
responded in sinful ways, and then just a lot of innocent bystanders who are collateral damage, unfortunately.
00:06:07
Eric Schumacher
But the church was a very stressful environment, and I was not responding to it well, full of anxiety, heading into depression, and just coming to grips with the fact that it didn't matter how well I did.
00:06:22
Eric Schumacher
I could do my best. I could put together what I thought were great sermons. I haven't gone back and re-listened to them. I'm kind of scared to do so. Yeah.
00:06:32
Ken Freire
You're probably like, let's not do that. Let's just assume they're great.
00:06:34
Eric Schumacher
Yeah. In the Lord's mercy of about a year after within the year after I left that church, nobody I think was maintaining the website or paying attention to it. And think it's like a Chinese like auto parts dealer, like,
00:06:48
Eric Schumacher
hacked the website and took it down. All my online sermons from that period just gone. It's probably God's kindness. But I just realized that no matter how hard I worked and no matter how hard I tried to be the best, that there were just some people that There were some people who weren't going to like you.
00:07:08
Eric Schumacher
And then there were people who might like you, but they just weren't served by your ministry and wanted to go someplace else. And the church didn't grow and you couldn't make everybody happy. And sort of just brought me to the end of myself walking through that.
00:07:24
Ken Freire
Well, so when you got to the end of yourself, what did you do? Did you end up saying, hey, I'm still going to be a pastor and just keep trucking on? Did you take a step back? Because lot people that I know, when they get to the end themselves, like, I'm doing a complete career transition and trying to start something different or get real depressed.
00:07:40
Eric Schumacher
Well, when I came to the end of myself, I tore my Bible into shreds. That's one of the lowest points. You can read about that in the epilogue to the book. There was a long period that was sort of the dark night of the soul. There was a couple of years where I was...
00:07:56
Eric Schumacher
I was waking up wishing I wasn't alive anymore. I was never suicidal, but I didn't want to be living anymore. And as I said, I wanted to be this great preacher and I had critics in the church who were criticizing and parsing everything I said in my sermons. And I wanted to make sure I said everything in my sermons in a way that satisfied every critic and answered every possible critique and question.
00:08:21
Eric Schumacher
And I also had fans in a sense who loved my preaching. And had this pressure that I felt like I wanted to hit a home run every Sunday. So, so to speak, you know, you couldn't just have a base hit or advance a runner, you know, sacrifice fly. I don't know what that means in preaching, but, uh, keep going with the baseball thing.
00:08:37
Eric Schumacher
But I, you know, and I, and I also had this, really weird idol, I guess this idea that like, Somewhere along the line, I picked up this idea, kind of the circles I ran in, that good pastor at the end of the day has at least a 30-year tenure in a church.
00:08:56
Eric Schumacher
He stays for decades.
00:08:56
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:08:58
Eric Schumacher
And so this was going to be the church I was going to be at until I died. And I was going to have this library of really good sermons.
00:09:09
Eric Schumacher
And, and I had this Bible that I'd been preaching from since, you know, the time I started preaching, you know, and it's the, it's a leather bound Bible, know, the spine is all smooth now from holding onto it and the pages are yellowed.
00:09:21
Eric Schumacher
And, and so it's, there's the Saturday night where it's, it's probably not even Saturday night. It's probably early Sunday morning where I'm, I'm sitting in my study. with all this pressure from everything that I've made ministry out to be and how I've wanted it to serve me.
00:09:37
Eric Schumacher
And I'm trying to finish the sermon and I just don't want to write anymore. I don't want to preach anymore. hate where I've put myself. I hate what ministry has become. And I just want out and I want relief and I want help.
00:09:49
Eric Schumacher
And, And I looked down at my Bible and it's not that it was the Bible and the word of God, but it was more what that Bible represented. I had this dream, know, going to give this Bible to my kids and my grandkids. And this is going to like dad and grandpa's like Bible he preached from for 50 years. it's going to be this great legacy of what an awesome preacher and pastor he was.
Theological insights: Strength in weakness.
00:10:23
Eric Schumacher
just in my my anger and i don't i don't even know if i can describe all the emotions and and thoughts and sin that's that's going into that moment and then i see what i've done and i hate it because like there's no fixing that you know and which made me tear it more and then I was angry about that and just full of, there's nothing I could do to fix any of this. I was totally powerless.
00:10:48
Eric Schumacher
I stood up and went over and kicked the door to my study. It had these louvered doors that were on hinges.
00:10:55
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:10:56
Eric Schumacher
I thought they'd swing open and out. but one of them came off the hinges and it falls to the floor and just boom, you know, this big boom in the middle of the night. And I just, I dropped to the floor next to it and I'm in just in a fetal position, just, just crying.
00:11:11
Eric Schumacher
And, I just, I just want everything to go away, you know? And then I hear, because there's this big boom at 2 or 3 a.m., hear my wife's footsteps coming down the stairway.
00:11:23
Eric Schumacher
And I'm thinking, oh, man, what is she going to say? What is she going to do? she going to scold me? And what I hear as she walks in the room is just, oh, Eric.
00:11:34
Eric Schumacher
And it's just this voice that's just full of grace and tenderness and compassion.
00:11:37
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:11:39
Eric Schumacher
And she's like, what's, you know, what's going on? And I don't even know what I said to explain it, you know, but she's like, just go upstairs and go to bed.
00:11:49
Eric Schumacher
and she started, you know, picking up all the pieces of that Bible and put them in a gallon Ziploc bag, you know, that we still have somewhere, I think. And, and I,
00:11:59
Eric Schumacher
I somehow went to church and preached that morning. I don't know what I preached, the gospel from whatever book I was in. And then after that, we had small group.
00:12:09
Ken Freire
Thank
00:12:11
Eric Schumacher
And our small group leader was an older gentleman in the church. And I just felt like I've got to talk. I've got to talk to someone. And so as a small group was sitting down to eat, I just said, hey, can we go talk in my office? And brought him into my office. and told him what happened, you know, and I've got my head down, you know, looking down at my desk as I'm telling him about all this, just thinking, this is terrible for a pastor.
00:12:36
Eric Schumacher
This is, you know, this is the worst of the worst. And I'm thinking, I don't know how this guy's going to respond to me, but whatever, whatever. whatever it is, I deserve it.
00:12:46
Eric Schumacher
You know, I'm thinking he's going to say, need to resign. You need to be fired, you know, whatever. And I, and I look up and what I see is his response is what I don't deserve. He's, he's just crying, you know, he's, he's just crying and, and he's like, brother, I'm so sorry. And,
00:13:09
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:13:10
Eric Schumacher
Just go take a nap. And I'm going talk to the elders, and we're going to make sure that you're taken care of and you're helped. And that really opened the door for, I think, for me.
00:13:23
Eric Schumacher
think my wife and I knew how badly I was doing to some extent just because of, we can talk more about that, how it was affecting my interactions with my family and all those sorts of things. That's not the only Saturday night that was extremely hard for me.
00:13:40
Eric Schumacher
But it opened the door to that conversation with, we were a smaller church, you know, 140 people, something like that, and had two lay elders besides myself. And so it kind of opened the conversation to how I was doing with them.
00:13:52
Eric Schumacher
And then it was not too long after that, I think we were on a family vacation and was just spending a lot of time thinking about how My work was hindering my ability to be a good husband, be a good dad, interact with my family. And I just didn't want to lose my family, lose my kids, or do anything stupid that pastors in the middle of burnout end up doing. At the end of the day, you can buy a new Bible, but there are worse things that you can do.
00:14:18
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:14:18
Eric Schumacher
And, and so I ended up talking to our elders and just, well, I talked my wife first and said, you know, think I want to be done. I want to step out of ministry. And she was like, okay.
00:14:29
Eric Schumacher
And, and that was, you know, there were, that wasn't the first time I ever said that in, you know, 12 years of ministry or whatever it was at the time, it was the first time my wife said, okay. And, uh, that was a good sign that, that I needed to be done.
00:14:39
Ken Freire
Do it.
00:14:43
Eric Schumacher
And my elders were very supportive and understood and helped craft a, helped you just plan a transition out of ministry. And,
00:14:54
Eric Schumacher
there's certainly a lot more to that story, but that's really where I felt like in my mind, I kind of reached the end of myself and the Lord started really crushing some of those idols and helping me to stomp on them as well.
00:15:10
Ken Freire
Yeah. Eric, first, thank you so much for your vulnerability. And I think that as guys listen to this, they might be shocked a little bit. They're like, oh, pastors struggle with those things too. Like, yeah, pastors are humans, right?
00:15:20
Eric Schumacher
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:21
Ken Freire
Like if anything, they have such an immense pressure because it's not like just your career, right? Like your career, your family's involved in it, your spiritual communities, and like everything is so intertwined.
00:15:33
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
00:15:34
Ken Freire
You know, most people have an eight to five, they go to it and then they could just check out and go home and be done. For you, it's like everything.
00:15:39
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
00:15:41
Ken Freire
It's like the core almost of who you are.
00:15:41
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
00:15:44
Ken Freire
As you were processing that, you had mentioned that like there were family struggles. So for those guys who may be feeling what you're feeling, they're like, I feel burnt out. I feel exhausted. I feel depressed. I feel so many of these negative emotions and some of them are sinful emotions too.
00:16:00
Ken Freire
How did it affect your family and how can they start to recognize like, man, this is affecting my family too?
00:16:06
Eric Schumacher
Yeah, I think, well, I think, oh, wow, there's several things there. One of those was I feel like it was just the neglect of my family in the sense of putting church things ahead of my family, which is sort of a cliche thing to say, it's easy to One I have this distinct memory of my oldest as pretty young boy. He's probably four or five.
00:16:38
Eric Schumacher
We're early on our second church. So pretty early in ministry. This is like year four or five of ministry for me because he was born around the time that we started. And I remember him saying to me one night, I'm heading to church for a meeting, know, another meeting.
00:16:54
Eric Schumacher
And, and he says, Hey, daddy, do you want to play with me? And I say to him, no, I can't. And he replies right away with, but you want to, right?
00:17:04
Eric Schumacher
And,
00:17:05
Ken Freire
Wow.
00:17:05
Eric Schumacher
And that response is because he had it memorized because I'd said so many times to him, can't play with you, but I want to. And that's what I would say before I went to another church meeting, another church thing.
00:17:20
Ken Freire
Oh.
00:17:22
Eric Schumacher
And I realized, wow, he knows my excuse.
00:17:26
Eric Schumacher
granted, we have to work. Our kids want to play with us all the time and we have to go to work. But then as things got bad at the church, I remember laying on the floor of our living room and hearing my wife, Jenny, saying, Eric, Eric, your son's talking to you. Your son's wanting to play with you.
00:17:46
Eric Schumacher
And I, you know, I'd gotten down on the floor to play with him. And my mind is just so wrapped up with everything, all the stresses of ministry that I'm just, I'm in another world, even though I'm right there with him. So he's talking to me, trying to play with me. And I, I'm just not even hearing it or seeing it.
00:18:04
Eric Schumacher
You know, I'm just mentally checked out And then it also appeared in some pretty serious anger issues. I found myself getting angry a lot and very short tempered with our kids, with my wife and,
00:18:23
Eric Schumacher
Just little inconveniences could make me pretty angry, and I think I wasn't pleasant to be around. wasn't ever violent or anything like that, but verbally, I could lose my temper. I guess I could be verbally violent.
00:18:40
Eric Schumacher
And so just recognizing that, you know, sometimes it was hard to see in the moment, but I have distinct memories, you know, of times where I really lost my temper and yelled at my kids pretty harshly and intensely that are some of those memories that if you could go back and, you know, I'd do anything to be able to go back and just change it.
00:19:03
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:19:06
Eric Schumacher
And those were big things. And then when you have those thoughts of like, I just wish I wasn't alive.
00:19:14
Eric Schumacher
Like I said, I was never suicidal, but just last night I was, the Baptist Press, I think just yesterday, the day before, published an article about pastors and and suicide and depression.
00:19:27
Eric Schumacher
And looking at last fall, Barna came out with the State of the Pastor study for 2024. And I think it said that something like nearly one in five pastors in the previous year had thought about self-harm or suicide.
00:19:42
Eric Schumacher
And so for our listeners, if you know five pastors, one of them's probably thought about killing himself. And And I lost a good friend around the same time that I stepped out of ministry at that church within the next year.
00:19:57
Eric Schumacher
friend of mine who's a pastor took his own life. And, you know, think when you start having those thoughts of... the the only way to find any relief from the pressure that you're under in life is just for life to end that's obviously giant red flag uh because it's simply not true
00:20:20
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:20:23
Eric Schumacher
But I think part of that stress for me and the reason why felt like there just was no escape for me was the fact that I didn't want to appear weak. To get help for that, to need help is to confess weakness.
00:20:41
Eric Schumacher
And I wanted to be this strong Christian pastor. And if you're a great man of God, then you obviously, I'm saying this tongue in cheek, have no weakness.
00:20:56
Eric Schumacher
You're strong, you're invincible.
00:20:56
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:20:59
Eric Schumacher
Yes.
00:20:59
Ken Freire
Sometimes it can be felt like it's portrayed that way. Like you are the superstar Christian and you got everything together.
00:21:06
Eric Schumacher
Yeah. I mean, that's what the Corinthians were saying about Paul, you know, is that they wanted the super apostles, you know, who were eloquent, you know, spoke with eloquence and had rich patrons who paid them big amounts and, you know, were confidence orators and, you know, they had all the right followers, you know, big followings and,
00:21:52
Eric Schumacher
There was nothing impressive about him.
00:21:52
Ken Freire
Mm-hmm.
00:21:53
Eric Schumacher
We didn't value him. It's what Isaiah 53 says. But I didn't want to look like Jesus. I wanted to look like the spiritual heroes that get to speak at conferences. Yeah.
00:22:04
Ken Freire
Yeah, with a massive platform and all this fun stuff and echo aids. And Eric, as I hear this, I know there's a lot of guys that this will hit home with. Because of things that they may struggle with is that they might not be in ministry, but they might be in a job that they're frustrated. They're super stressed out.
00:22:21
Ken Freire
Man, I remember one time was so stressed at work. And this was years ago. And my wife asked me, don't remember what she asked me, but it was like a small question.
00:22:31
Ken Freire
And I took it as she was attacking me. And I so quickly lashed out. And I mean, I raised my voice and I like, I think we've probably had like five times that I've ever yelled at her, right? This was one of them.
00:22:43
Ken Freire
And I yelled at her and she's like, whoa, dude, calm down. I was just asking you what you wanted, know, for this, whatever the situation was. I don't remember now. And I remember thinking there's so much internal issues that are going on in my life and internal struggles and sin that I'm working through that, you know,
00:23:02
Ken Freire
For me to lash out like that, am so blinded by how much everything is affecting me.
00:23:08
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
00:23:09
Ken Freire
So I'm curious for you, Eric, that I know there's a lot of guys who feel like that. Like when you were talking about, I'm lashing out my kids. I'm feeling more depressed. I'm struggling. I know so many guys who just check out, right?
00:23:18
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
00:23:18
Ken Freire
They're just kind of like, I'm done. just want to escape.
00:23:20
Eric Schumacher
Yep.
00:23:21
Ken Freire
And that's why they probably escape to pornography or alcohol or drugs or whatever their vice is. What are some of the signs that you have noticed where people are afraid to admit their weakness, even though unknowingly they are struggling?
00:23:37
Ken Freire
Like, what are those signs so that as guys can hear this, they can start saying, yeah, I am weak.
00:23:41
Eric Schumacher
Yeah, that's good. think, you know, talked about several of the signs in my own life and you mentioned some like escaping to pornography and alcohol. You're like, think anytime that you're, you're numbing yourself, like if you're not feeling anything, that's a, that's a big sign. If you're, if you're,
00:24:01
Eric Schumacher
you know, running to those, those other things, in order to check out of this world. If you're living in a fantasy world where you're living in this ideal in your mind, you know, this world you're creating in your head, because you can't tolerate the one that you're, you're in.
00:24:16
Eric Schumacher
I, I think, I think denial is a huge one that's, that's hard to face, but you know, I, I find this in people that I counsel all the time. And, you know, the whole, I'm fine.
00:24:28
Eric Schumacher
You know, you know, there's that meme of the, the little dude sitting in the room that's on fire, you know, drinking coffee and he's like, it's fine.
00:24:33
Ken Freire
on fire i literally said that to friend of mine like three days ago they're like how you man i'm like everything's fine that was to me my sentence no
00:24:35
Eric Schumacher
Everything's fine. I, I just,
00:24:43
Eric Schumacher
Yes, that's it. Yeah. And if we can't recognize ourselves in that meme, then there's probably a problem. But when we're just denying it, that's a huge red flag.
00:24:58
Eric Schumacher
I think one sign that we're denying our weaknesses is when we're really obsessed with strength and looking good. I think anytime someone's bragging about how strong they are and how much they have it all together, you know, mocking weakness, looking down upon it, those are typically signs that we're afraid of something and we don't want to be associated with it.
00:25:20
Eric Schumacher
So, you know, and I think comparison with other people. I think there's just probably just a slew there. I don't know if that's helpful.
00:25:31
Ken Freire
Yeah. Well, let's talk about that second one that you just mentioned, because I think that's our whole society, right? Like we always want to appear to look strong, especially men, right?
00:25:38
Eric Schumacher
Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:39
Ken Freire
And like all the self-help books out there, it's always like, let's be the best you can be. Like, you know, we admire the Navy SEALs whenever they come out with a new book or something like that. They're like, yeah, want to be like that. David Goggins, right? You're like, you're not going hard enough. And I'm just like that for a lot of men, that's the apex of manhood.
00:25:58
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
00:26:00
Ken Freire
But God actually in Christ shows us a complete counterintuitive way to do that. I love kind of transition here and just start talking about one, your journey and how God has revealed weakness to truly be a gift for you. And then how this counterintuitive mindset is like, no, no, we don't have to be this apex man of what culture tells us.
00:26:21
Ken Freire
But it's truly like we find strength in God's weakness.
00:26:25
Eric Schumacher
Yeah. Well, I think I just want to reiterate what you said. Like it's, it's, It's good to ask the question, ask ourselves, what does the ideal Christian man look like? What does godly man look like? And even if you think about that physically, what does he physically look like?
00:26:47
Eric Schumacher
And I mentioned earlier what Isaiah says in Isaiah 53, that he had no form or majesty that we should look at him. His appearance wasn't anything that we should desire him. Isaiah says didn't value him.
00:27:01
Eric Schumacher
out of dry ground you know like what is a what does a seedling look like that's coming up out of parched drought stricken soil it's it's scrawny and it it's uh you know it's it's not the plant that you bet on to grow and that's the description we have of what jesus is going to be like
00:27:03
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:27:22
Eric Schumacher
And it says that he understood grief or sickness, weakness. He was acquainted with that. This depiction of him, he knows what sickness and weakness is, sickly. And we know he's the carpenter's son, but we don't actually know how he did at carpentry. Yeah.
00:27:40
Eric Schumacher
Like you can make all sorts of assumptions.
00:27:40
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:27:42
Eric Schumacher
You know, I remember one pastor saying, oh, there was, you know, meat hanging from his frame. He was this burly guy because he did all this carpentry work. We don't actually know, know.
00:27:50
Eric Schumacher
And even among the disciples that he picks, you know, like the highest social standing among them is the fishermen. And I think most of the depictions we have of them fishing is, you know, not like they were the biggest success in the world.
00:28:04
Eric Schumacher
And so think like, It's interesting when we see the movies and films made about Jesus that, you know, the actor is typically a handsome dude and, you know, he's not, he's not the ugliest one in the bunch.
00:28:19
Eric Schumacher
And why is that? Why, why, why do we pick, why do we pick actors and, and artistic displays of Jesus that make him out to be, you know, Instagram worthy?
00:28:30
Eric Schumacher
He's going to look good in the pictures. And that's, that's because think we think that We, I think, you know, you see this on what you're just talking about, like trying to be this alpha male who's like the apex of physical fitness and attractiveness. And that's true. And that's not just true of men. That's true of... of women as well.
00:29:01
Eric Schumacher
And I know there's theological arguments for that, but even the vulnerability is sometimes fake vulnerability that's staged very well. So that it's safe vulnerability.
00:29:13
Eric Schumacher
It's the respectable ways you can admit that you're weak and you'll be applauded for. And so, and even, man, there's so many ways that comes out.
00:29:22
Eric Schumacher
Like, I think Kelsey McGinnis, I think I got her name right, who's writing for Christianity Today on worship. Like, she just had something on Instagram about how attractiveness plays into the Christian music world in terms of worship, like artists, which artists get, you know, get to be most popular and how does being attractive fit into that?
00:29:38
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:29:42
Eric Schumacher
So, so there's that. What was your question again? I feel like I'm so far on track.
00:29:48
Ken Freire
Well, that was really good because I'm looking at men and as they're struggling, right, they're admitting weakness. Like it's so hard for them to admit weakness.
00:29:56
Eric Schumacher
Yes. Yeah.
00:29:57
Ken Freire
But then that counterintuitive logic of like, how does God use that to start actually bringing about healing in a person's life?
00:30:01
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
00:30:04
Eric Schumacher
Yeah. So, so there's, there's, there's that, Yeah, so as we think about what a godly man even physically looks like, we remember that Jesus was not a specimen of strength.
00:30:18
Eric Schumacher
And then to think about
00:30:22
Eric Schumacher
what does his ministry consist of? And the way that Jesus accomplishes our salvation is by living a life of human weakness.
00:30:35
Eric Schumacher
You know, in his flesh, he gets tired. He gets thirsty. He gets worn out. He asks for help at the end. You know, at the end, he's so weak. He can't even carry his own cross. You know, they have to get a, a volunteer, voluntold out of the crowd, you know, to carry his cross for him.
00:30:51
Eric Schumacher
You know, we see him in the Garden of Gethsemane, you know, face down on the ground, pleading with his father to take the cup from him, telling his disciples, you stay awake and pray because the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. And that's what he's doing. He's staying awake and praying because his flesh is weak. sinful. He's not sinful.
00:31:08
Eric Schumacher
But he says, I'm sorrowful the point of death. I'm so sad that I could die. This grief is so heavy that it could kill me. And we're told an angel stands beside him and is strengthening him. He has to be strengthened, which means he's weak because you can't strengthen something that's not weak.
00:31:25
Eric Schumacher
And so he's living this life of weakness incarnate. And then he The weakest point is he's dead under the wrath of God, hanging on a cross.
00:31:36
Eric Schumacher
And Paul says that that is message of foolishness and weakness in the eyes of the world.
Cultural norms and the power of weakness.
00:31:46
Eric Schumacher
But that's the power and the wisdom of God to save us, Paul says in 1 Corinthians.
00:31:52
Eric Schumacher
And so the way that Jesus saves us as the Messiah, as the perfect human being, is this life of...
00:32:04
Eric Schumacher
James Cairelli, Weakness of total dependence on his father and upon the spirit for everything that he needs, and then public shame and humiliation.
00:32:15
Eric Schumacher
That's called weakness, which becomes the power of God to save us. And that's how you know if the gospel and the gospel is the power of god for salvation like that's how god accomplishes his kingdom work is through the weakness the foolishness of a crucified messiah and so then paul turns around in first corinthians and says and consider yourselves brothers and sisters not many of you were of noble birth not many of you are wise in the world you like and then then he says god chooses what is weak and foolish
00:32:49
Eric Schumacher
in the world to shame the wise to shame the strong. And he's telling you're the ambassadors the king.
00:32:55
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:32:59
Eric Schumacher
And no ambassador is greater than the king he represents.
00:33:04
Eric Schumacher
And so if we have a king who looks weak and foolish in the world, and that's how God worked through him establish his kingdom, then you as ambassadors aren't going to be greater than him.
00:33:16
Eric Schumacher
You're going to be weak and foolish in the world because the messenger looks like the message. And that was true of Christ, that's going to be true of us. And so if we want to be Christ-like, then we have to be weak like he was.
00:33:33
Eric Schumacher
and live by faith in the power of God.
00:33:33
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:33:36
Eric Schumacher
If we want to be effective messengers of the gospel, then we have to look like the gospel, which is weak and foolish in the eyes of the world.
00:33:48
Eric Schumacher
And Paul says the reason that God chooses the weak and the foolish things of the world is to shame the wise, to shame the strong, to bring to nothing those things that appear to be something in the world, so that at the end of the day, one can boast except in the cross of Christ, except in the power of Christ.
00:34:09
Eric Schumacher
So he works through us to do his kingdom work in a way that at the end of the day should result in people seeing lives changed by the gospel and going, well,
00:34:25
Eric Schumacher
It can't be because of that messenger. It can't be because of that minister, because they're obviously weak and foolish in the eyes of the world. And so the power must be, it must be this gospel that they're proclaiming.
00:34:39
Eric Schumacher
And don't, we... We don't like that message. We don't love that message, at least in the American church, because we platform strength and we platform wisdom.
00:34:55
Eric Schumacher
And then we look for ways to give the credit and the glory to that strength and to that wisdom. Like what made this ministry effective? It must be some attributes of this man or this woman that we can put into a book that and into a ministry model and we can imitate, we can put it in a bottle and we can drink that tonic and we can become like them.
00:35:20
Eric Schumacher
And I think that's why in the last five to 10 years, we've seen so many ministries come crashing down. We elevated them because God had worked through them and we made them much and God has shown us they're not much.
00:35:35
Eric Schumacher
And it has to drive us back to Christ. And I think when we begin to see that, then I think we can start making choices like Paul made to intentionally embrace that so that people's confidence is only in the gospel.
00:35:55
Eric Schumacher
but you know, he, he says, didn't come with eloquence. You know, there was this in Corinth, there was this, this eloquence, this form of rhetoric and speaking that the thought was in order to be a teacher that was listened worth listening you had to excel in this, this form of presenting your message. There was a way in which you had to do it in that culture.
00:36:19
Eric Schumacher
and, a certain style of speaking, certain way you carried yourself in a presence in front of other people, and then certain supportive crowd of patrons that you had. And Paul says, intentionally didn't come with eloquence lest the gospel be made void. How do you make the gospel void?
00:36:39
Eric Schumacher
Well, you make the gospel void when you present it in a way that people will hear it and adhere to it because of the manner in which it's preached.
00:36:50
Eric Schumacher
And Paul's like, if I chose all these cultural stylistic ways of presenting the gospel, people would embrace this. I'd build a following, but they'd be trusting in the way I did this ministry.
00:37:04
Eric Schumacher
And if you're trusting in anything but Jesus, then it's not the gospel. The gospel has been made void, so to speak. So Paul's like, I intentionally reject this. This is why he made tents instead of accepting support, was he didn't want to play the game that culture played in order to be listened to.
00:37:15
Ken Freire
Yeah. Yeah.
00:37:23
Eric Schumacher
Because he wanted Christ alone be what shined in his ministry so that only Christ would be trusted in.
00:37:34
Eric Schumacher
And the Corinthians, like the church, had a hard time tolerating that because they wanted a super apostle and not an apostle of weakness.
00:37:45
Ken Freire
So, you know, Eric, as a guy may be listening to this and he's like, man, you're right. I need to appear weak. I know for some guys, I'm gonna use myself as an example. I could be too extreme.
00:37:58
Ken Freire
I'm like, I'm gonna try follow culture and say, I need to go run a thousand miles today to be an apex man. But then I'm hearing you say, be weak, be foolish.
00:38:09
Ken Freire
And I'm like, okay, I shouldn't work out at all. I shouldn't do any of that stuff. I'm just gonna not pursue excellence, not pursue greatness. I'm just gonna let God work through me in my foolishness.
00:38:20
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
00:38:22
Ken Freire
How should guy practically walk out weakness so that they might not fall into two extremes?
00:38:26
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
00:38:29
Eric Schumacher
That's a great question. And I think Paul says that he trained his body.
00:38:36
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:38:36
Eric Schumacher
He was strict with his body.
Paul as a model for embracing weakness.
00:38:38
Eric Schumacher
And he says that physical training is of some value. Godliness is of value in every way.
00:38:46
Eric Schumacher
So he admits there's some value to being physically fit. And there's only one... there's only one physical description of Paul that we have from history.
00:38:56
Eric Schumacher
And it's not in the Bible. I have it in my book. I can't remember it off the top of my head. But the point of it is, they mentioned that he seems to be in good shape, which is probably true because the dude walked everywhere and he covered some ground in his ministry.
00:39:09
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:39:11
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
00:39:12
Ken Freire
Most of them are probably in good shape compared to us America.
00:39:14
Eric Schumacher
Yes, yeah, because they were eating a pretty good diet and traveling a lot.
00:39:15
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:39:19
Eric Schumacher
But other than that, he's depictable. It's not a handsome appearance that we have of Paul when it comes down to And of course it wasn't. You think about... all the suffering that he endured and the lack of modern medicine to set bones and heal wounds. He's probably a mass of scars and some bones that weren't put back together. But I think Paul is a good example of how to... He says 2 Corinthians 12, verse 9, I will most gladly boast all the more about my weaknesses so that Christ's power may reside in me. And that's a really interesting verse because...
00:39:58
Eric Schumacher
in his first epistle to the Galatians, he says at the end of that, he says, far be it from me if I ever boast in anything but the cross of Christ my Lord.
00:40:10
Ken Freire
Mm-hmm.
00:40:10
Eric Schumacher
So how can Paul say, only boast in the cross and I gladly boast in my weaknesses? Because if you only boast in the cross, you sounds like boasting in your weaknesses is boasting in something else.
00:40:26
Eric Schumacher
So his boasting of his weakness has to be part and parcel of what it means to boast in the cross. Making myself nothing is part of how you make much of the cross.
00:40:39
Eric Schumacher
And so this show the sufficiency of the cross. And so can't, A godly man cannot glory in the cross unless he glories in weakness at the same time. You can't make much of yourself and make much of the cross.
00:40:55
Eric Schumacher
So what does that looks like... how is it that I justify myself and my ministry and my life choices? And like 2 Corinthians 11 through 12 is this really good example of what it looks like for a man to boast about being weak.
00:41:15
Eric Schumacher
And, you know, we have that list where Paul says, you know, says, you know, five times I received 40 lashes minus one from the Jews and three times I was beaten with rods and all this. And, and what's happening there is we read that. And I think sometimes we can read that like maybe at a men's conference or a pastor's conference. And we're like, man, this, this guy was a, you know, tough dude, you know, that, you know, look at, look at all this awesome, awesome ways that he endured.
00:41:44
Eric Schumacher
But Paul,
00:41:44
Ken Freire
I'm telling you, if I got lashed once, I'd be done. be like,
00:41:47
Eric Schumacher
Yeah, no kidding.
00:41:48
Ken Freire
I'm on the ground. I'm like, I quit.
00:41:50
Eric Schumacher
But the context of that is really important because Paul is actually talking about things that appear shameful in his culture.
00:42:01
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:42:02
Eric Schumacher
And what's going on is in Greco-Roman culture, there's a, I don't remember the Latin name for it, but there's like this stylized brag sheet that they would write. And, you know, Caesar had written one of these for himself. And I mentioned this in my chapter about the Christian life and the good gift of weakness, but And the stylized sheet was like, three times I conquered foreign capitals and two times marched with my army out to battle. And so it's this numbered, stylized brag sheet that you basically like writing your own funeral eulogy.
00:42:35
Eric Schumacher
And Paul copies that style here, but he fills it with things that look shameful for an apostle.
00:42:45
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:42:46
Eric Schumacher
Because super apostles, they don't get rejected by people. like this. They don't get lashed. They don't get beaten. They don't get stoned. They don't get, you know, their ships don't sink, you know? And so Paul's actually saying, I'm going to take what super apostles and my culture brag about, and I'm going to highlight where I'm the opposite.
00:43:12
Eric Schumacher
I'm going to show I'm going to highlight the things that would make them go, man, this guy doesn't seem like he's fit to be an apostle at all because of this.
00:43:23
Eric Schumacher
And, and he actually, as he gets to the end of that list, you know, one things that was stunning for me, and I owe a lot of these observations to D.A. Carson. He has a little book of sermons and lectures on second Corinthians.
00:43:33
Eric Schumacher
It's, it's really good. he, you know, Paul goes on to talk about this boasting that he's doing. And he says, if boasting is necessary, I will boast about my weaknesses.
00:43:46
Eric Schumacher
And then he says, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is blessed forever, knows I'm not lying. That's like an oath. He's like swearing an oath there. Like, before God, I'm not lying in what I'm about to share here.
00:43:59
Eric Schumacher
And I think the reason is, is he's like, okay, I've shared this whole list, but this last thing I'm going add to my list, Like, it's so shameful to admit for an apostle that if I don't swear an oath, you wouldn't believe it's actually true.
00:44:12
Eric Schumacher
And then he talks about while he was in Damascus, this is right after his conversion, ruler under King Eretas guarded the city of Damascus in order to arrest me. So was let down in a basket through a window in the wall and escaped from his hands.
00:44:24
Eric Schumacher
And basically what he's saying is, is when they wanted to arrest me, I ran away. And the highest honor you could receive in the Roman society was the Corona muralis, the wall crown, which was the award given to the soldier who was the first one to go over the wall as they were invading a city.
00:44:44
Eric Schumacher
Because that took incredible bravery and courage, you know, to be the first one over the wall.
00:44:46
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:44:47
Eric Schumacher
There's no soldiers over there to help you. And highest honor you can receive. And Paul caps his list with saying, was the first one down the wall and out of the city when they were looking to arrest me. I ran away.
00:45:02
Eric Schumacher
And I kind of, in my mind, picture him at the Super Apostles Conference, and they're having this panel discussion. And one apostle's like, I've been in this post for 50 years. And this other one's like, I've published 75 volumes of all my wisdom, and this guy's whatever.
00:45:20
Eric Schumacher
they all kind of look down at Paul as the ordinary apostle that got invited so that they could seem like they valued that kind of guy. And And they're like, well, Paul, tell us about your ministry. And he's like, I ran away.
00:45:33
Eric Schumacher
And it doesn't make me any less qualified to be an apostle than any of you.
00:45:37
Eric Schumacher
And then he probably wouldn't drop the mic because he's so humble. But that's what's going on there. And then he goes on to talk about getting caught up into heaven. He's like, but I won't talk about that.
00:45:50
Eric Schumacher
That's not what I'm going to talk about. His refusal to glory in the things that he could human strength of glory and his highlighting, like what Paul wanted to do is to say,
00:46:06
Eric Schumacher
The cap of that whole section there in 2 Corinthians 12 is him saying, I had this thorn in my side that was a messenger of Satan that was sent to afflict me to keep me from thinking too highly of myself so that I wouldn't exalt myself.
00:46:22
Eric Schumacher
Now, that's a messenger from Satan, he says, but also here's God's purpose in it. It's to keep Paul from exalting himself. Yeah. And he pleads three times for it to be removed.
00:46:34
Eric Schumacher
And the answer he gets is, my grace is sufficient for you because my power is perfected in weakness. No, Paul, I'm not going to remove this.
00:46:44
Eric Schumacher
I'm going leave this thing in your life that prevents you from bragging about yourself so that you learn and you show Grace is sufficient.
00:46:59
Eric Schumacher
The grace of Christ crucified and risen is all that you need because his power, the power of that grace of the gospel is brought to its fullness. It's perfected in the context of weakness. Okay.
00:47:18
Eric Schumacher
And so that's why I'm going to keep you weak, Paul. That's why I'm going to keep you in pain. That's why I'm going to keep you in a place where you cannot brag about yourself so that you understand the fullness of the grace of the glory of Christ crucified and risen.
00:47:33
Eric Schumacher
And that's when Paul says, therefore, I'll gladly boast all the more about my weaknesses so that Christ's power may reside in me. I'm going to choose to highlight these shameful things that about myself.
00:47:48
Eric Schumacher
He says, I take pleasure in weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and difficulties for the sake of Christ. For when I'm weak, then I'm strong. So how do I know when I'm doing that?
00:48:00
Eric Schumacher
That's probably more of a sermon than you wanted to hear. But to get to your question, like...
00:48:04
Ken Freire
I was encouraged. I was like, yeah, man, let's go. was like...
00:48:07
Eric Schumacher
So for the guy listening who's like, well, how do I know when I'm doing that? Because you know, it's totally possible to be the person who is just whining about suffering and weakness, who's self-pitying, which is not what Paul is doing.
00:48:16
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:48:20
Eric Schumacher
This isn't self-pity and self-deprecation for the sake of self-deprecation. He's not just trying to get people to... He's not, he's not sharing. He's not glorying in his weakness for the sake of like getting people to feel sorry for him.
00:48:34
Eric Schumacher
And he's also not sharing this whole list of things so that people go, wow, what an awesome servant of Christ you are that you endured all those things. Like, man, you're yeah.
00:48:44
Ken Freire
like a humble brag.
00:48:45
Eric Schumacher
Like a humble brag. Yeah. And he's showing what a tough man he is, that he could endure all this, which is totally what we do at pastors' conferences, is we sit around and we brag about our sufferings with each other and try to one-up each other with these stories of what we endured, like some kind of Ironman race that we've been through in ministry.
00:49:04
Eric Schumacher
And so part of it is asking, checking your heart and going, why am I going to, why am about to share these weaknesses with, with other, with other dudes, with other pastors or with my family or whoever it is?
00:49:19
Eric Schumacher
Is it because I wanted them to feel sorry for me? Is it because I want them to give me some accolades for how much I've suffered well, then you're not boasting in your weaknesses for the sake of Christ.
00:49:31
Eric Schumacher
You're boasting in your weaknesses for the sake of yourself because you're wanting to use them to serve you in some way by the response you get from other people. But if it's, no, I want people to get an accurate view how pathetic I am so that they get an accurate view how powerful the cross is that's a good reason to be sharing your weaknesses.
00:50:00
Eric Schumacher
And I think we want to be really careful to do that in ways that point back to the glory and the sufficiency of Jesus so that the end of the day, people aren't amazed at our story, but they're amazed with Christ.
00:50:21
Ken Freire
Eric, that is extremely powerful because I think as you're talking, I'm hearing all these other, well, what about this? What about this? And most of them, if I analyze the what ifs, are society breeding cultural lies of how we have to be strong.
00:50:40
Ken Freire
But I love how Paul says it and you articulate it very well. When I am weak, he's made strong. Like if we want to see God work miraculously through us and experience his power, we have to just be vulnerable.
00:50:52
Ken Freire
We have to be weak and say like, hey, I can't save myself, right?
00:50:53
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
00:50:56
Eric Schumacher
Yep. Mm.
00:50:56
Ken Freire
I can't actually help myself through all these things that I'm dealing with, internal heart issues. I can't do it, right? Like I think about, was watching this video from Paul Tripp this morning actually, and he was talking about how like we as parents cannot save our kids, right?
00:51:14
Ken Freire
And I thought about it. I have four kids at the time of this recording. I'm thinking I could lay out opportunities for them. I could have an environment, but I'm not the one who saves.
00:51:24
Eric Schumacher
Yeah. Amen.
00:51:26
Ken Freire
But so many times we try to appear strong and like, no, no, I'm going to all these things because if I do all these things,
00:51:33
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
00:51:33
Ken Freire
I'll have a result.
00:51:34
Eric Schumacher
Yep.
00:51:34
Ken Freire
And it's like, no, no. Dependency and weakness states that like, we just got to trust that God is the one who does these things.
00:51:39
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
00:51:42
Ken Freire
But if our Instagram is always showing how good we look, we actually don't show the power of God.
00:51:43
Eric Schumacher
Yep.
00:51:47
Eric Schumacher
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there's really... There's an ironic thing that happens, I think, among the theological crowd that condemns the prosperity gospel.
00:52:02
Eric Schumacher
We embrace the prosperity gospel of strength. That just what you said, if I do all the right things and believe in the right way, I can guarantee this result, which is just prosperity gospel.
00:52:06
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:52:14
Eric Schumacher
It's treating God like a vending machine, that if we do all these things, then we can produce this result. And think one of the reasons that we're afraid of this conversation about weakness, especially among...
00:52:28
Eric Schumacher
Christian men is there, there is this thing in our culture. And I think it's in some aspects of some realms of Christian culture as well, where we're not glorying in weakness as a form of glorying in the cross.
00:52:44
Eric Schumacher
We're just glorying in weakness and look at how weak I am.
00:52:47
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:52:48
Eric Schumacher
Look at how shameful I am. And we're like worshiping vulnerability. And that's not right. That needs to be pushed back against. But we don't answer that with this slippery slope argument, like going, well, we can't talk about weakness because we might slide into that. We lash boasting in weakness with boasting in the cross as the inseparable flip sides of the same coin.
00:53:16
Eric Schumacher
And I think there's also this fear about, you know, when you hear talk about masculinity and manhood, there's this, I think, right concern about men being passive and,
00:53:31
Eric Schumacher
and inactive and not engaging in hard things. And I think those are genuine concerns. And I think we have a wrong view of the solution. solution is we need to teach men how to be strong because then they'll go out and they'll do hard things and they'll conquer, you know,
00:53:51
Eric Schumacher
They'll take hills and they'll go fight battles. But that's not how God teaches his people to fight battles. Look at how he tells Joshua to be strong and courageous. It's because I am with you.
00:54:05
Eric Schumacher
And I am going to give you the land that I promised your forefathers. The reason Joshua can be strong and courageous is not because you're a trained soldier who knows what you're doing and you're strong.
00:54:19
Eric Schumacher
It's because I'm here, the Lord says. And that's why the first battle was terrible strategy. Walk around the city And then on the seventh you're going to blow some trumpets.
00:54:33
Eric Schumacher
The first thing that Joshua had to learn was Joshua didn't fight the battle of Jericho. The Lord did. And the reason men are cowards and are passive and they don't do hard things is because we glorify strength.
00:54:53
Eric Schumacher
And they look at those things and they go, I'm not strong enough to do this. So I'm not going to try. And when strength is the motivator, then you don't do things.
00:55:06
Eric Schumacher
And that's why we get these men who do hard things and are not passive, but they become dominant jerks.
00:55:17
Eric Schumacher
And, you know, worship this alpha male thing where wolves eat wolves, you know, and fight to the death because they, but they only do it in fields where they know they can dominate.
00:55:28
Eric Schumacher
Like that, that's the thing is all these guys are out there puffing their chests. They're doing it in realms where they know they can, they, they can succeed. Yeah. But if we really want men to not be passive, if we want them to go do hard things, if we want them to get engaged in the world and politics and missions and church planting and being good dads, whatever it is, think weakness is the way.
00:55:56
Eric Schumacher
Because... A right understanding of weakness, one like Paul has where Christ's power is perfected in weakness and when I'm weak, then I'm strong, that kills passivity because it eliminates all the excuses.
00:56:13
Eric Schumacher
Because you look at this thing that God's calling to you, maybe it's to run for political office, or maybe it's to go to an unreached people group, or maybe it's to kill your dreams and be a faithful husband and father, or start a business or a community ministry that is going to help your neighbors flourish in life.
00:56:35
Eric Schumacher
And you're like, I can't do this. Well, you're in a great spot when you realize that because what you can say is, is Christ, you deserve to be glorified and honored in my neighborhood, in government, in wherever it is.
00:56:52
Eric Schumacher
And you say, you deserve to be glorified here and you deserve to not be dishonored. And people who are made in your image should be flourishing under your rule. And can't make that happen, but I'm going to step into this arena and I'm admitting that I'm weak. And you say that your power is perfected in weakness. So I'm going to in faith like David saying,
00:57:18
Eric Schumacher
who is this Philistine who mocks the name of the Lord? Like, I'm just going to walk out there. And, and I've seen the Lord work before, you know, I've seen him deliver me from bears and lions. And so like,
00:57:32
Eric Schumacher
I'm just asking you to show off, Jesus. I'm not going to be passive. I'm going to go do the hard thing because I know I'm weak, but you have promised that your power is perfected in that context. This is where you give it yourself.
00:57:45
Eric Schumacher
So I'm going and I'm doing the hard thing. I think that's the secret to helping men kill passivity and take on hard things is by teaching them not to trust in themselves, but to be confident that Christ is sufficient in all these things.
00:58:03
Ken Freire
Yeah, Eric, you know, as you were talking and you were talking about like Christ being the power, I also want to not brush over the fact that you also said, like it says in Joshua and different places where like, do not be discouraged, be strong and courageous for what the Lord, your God is with you.
00:58:20
Eric Schumacher
Mm-hmm.
00:58:20
Ken Freire
Like in those moments of weakness, like you were just saying, like, man, I know I'm weak, but God is with me and he's actually going to doing this. I'm just in it for the ride. Like I'm here for the ride and I'm going to see it.
00:58:30
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
Applying weakness in everyday life.
00:58:32
Ken Freire
But kind of going back to something you said earlier, but if we're in denial that we're weak, we'll never actually experience that God is with us and that God's power is working through us.
00:58:44
Eric Schumacher
Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:45
Ken Freire
And that's the beautiful good gift that weakness brings is that we can experience those things.
00:58:51
Ken Freire
Eric, dude, I think we could be talking for hours. I'm looking at the clock going on and I'm like, oh, we should probably start wrapping up. As men are hearing this, and I think for a lot of guys, this is gonna be the first time that they've heard this in this way.
00:59:06
Ken Freire
What, what's maybe one practical thing they could do today they hear this, that they can start walking in weakness. And then, what's the best way that they could reach out to you if they want to learn more about, about, this concept.
00:59:18
Eric Schumacher
So probably the first practical thing encourage them do is to Jesus. right now and ask him to show them where they're weak and he is strong like just to say jesus as i go through this day give me eyes to see how i depend upon you for everything
00:59:31
Ken Freire
Hmm.
00:59:45
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:59:45
Eric Schumacher
because you know paul asked the question like what do you have that you didn't receive everything you know like the technology that they're listening to this podcast most of the men don't even couldn't make they couldn't build like everything around us is we're given we're you know that's before the fall that's creation like we depend upon god to live and to be and to eat and everything like weaknesses is not a bug in the design it's a feature of of how God designed the world that we live that we're dependent we need help it's not good for the man to be alone so to ask Jesus show me my weakness you know and then I think I think on think on
01:00:33
Eric Schumacher
just as a little bonus add to that is like, maybe just share a weakness with somebody, whether that's your wife or a friend go, know, here's something that I don't think I do very well.
01:00:48
Eric Schumacher
And I'm asking Jesus to, to help me with like, just,
01:00:54
Eric Schumacher
normalize, normalize admitting weakness.
01:01:00
Ken Freire
Yeah.
01:01:01
Eric Schumacher
And even if you're picking the safe, easy thing, just start, start admitting it. And, and soon I think you'll find yourself going into everything going, Jesus, if you don't help me, this isn't going to be successful.
01:01:19
Eric Schumacher
and it'll just be like breathing, admitting to Christ, like you're with me. So show off your power. and,
01:01:28
Eric Schumacher
Yeah. And then how can people get, follow me on social media. You know, I think I have my DMs open on most of my social media channels. So if people want to just connect with me there and if they want to talk about something, I'm probably about to start doing some counseling. So I don't necessarily know what channels that'll be through, maybe a little counseling on the side, but If I could be helpful in that way, follow me on social media and you'll probably learn about that whenever I figure out.
01:01:56
Ken Freire
Hahaha.
01:01:56
Eric Schumacher
So, yeah. But I love to hear from listeners and readers because you and I have both done a lot of podcasts. We're pretty comfortable in this environment, but I don't know about you, but I go into every one of these going,
01:02:11
Eric Schumacher
oh Lord, I don't know what I have to share in this. And I go into this going, we prayed before the start of it, asking the Lord to help us because we don't know our listeners.
01:02:24
Eric Schumacher
And we're asking God to lead and guide a conversation so that it's helpful to people we never see and never meet. And so anytime someone responds with,
01:02:37
Eric Schumacher
here's specifically how that podcast conversation helped me. Like, it's just a way of going, wow, Jesus is great.
01:02:45
Eric Schumacher
Like he worked, he worked.
01:02:45
Ken Freire
Yeah.
01:02:47
Eric Schumacher
Yeah. Yeah.
01:02:50
Ken Freire
And I have found so many times that like the moments when I was most dependent, I personally, and this is not like some sort of like magic wheel or, you know, like magic key.
01:03:02
Ken Freire
But when I was most dependent, that's where I've seen the most testimonies of God work. I can't tell you how many times I've walked into a counseling, a coaching session. I'm like, I got this. And I feel like I hit a brick wall.
01:03:15
Ken Freire
And I'm like, Well, I can't help you. And it's like, you're right.
01:03:19
Ken Freire
I'm right. I can't help this person, but I'm acting like it's me who can.
01:03:22
Eric Schumacher
Yep.
01:03:24
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
01:03:25
Ken Freire
And the whole thing was going to fail from the beginning because I walked in not dependent on the Lord and not being weak to discern from the Holy Spirit, like, Holy Spirit, what do you have for this person?
01:03:31
Eric Schumacher
Yep.
01:03:36
Ken Freire
How can we bring about redemption and healing for this individual?
01:03:39
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
01:03:41
Ken Freire
And that has been like a massive game changer in life. my ministry with coaching counseling that I've I've shifted. I'm like, Lord, I, I can't help this individual. you're going to have to do this.
01:03:52
Ken Freire
You've given me wisdom and skills to ask good questions. But even then, I need your help to be able to ask good questions and discern what's the right question at the right time for someone.
01:04:00
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
01:04:03
Ken Freire
And that's all God. And I think for men, as you're hearing this, when you start to recognize that the more you realize God can actually help you in every step of the way and you realize how dependent you need to be, it's actually so freeing.
01:04:17
Eric Schumacher
Yep.
01:04:20
Eric Schumacher
Yeah.
01:04:20
Eric Schumacher
Yeah. Cause there's, there's a guy, listening this podcast, you know, who he's not in counseling like you or me or preaching like you or me, but he's got a situation home at work that he doesn't want to acknowledge and address because he doesn't know what to do.
01:04:20
Ken Freire
Because you...
01:04:30
Ken Freire
Yeah.
01:04:41
Ken Freire
Yeah.
01:04:42
Eric Schumacher
And he, and that's true. He actually doesn't know what to do. And, and I've been there, you've been there in the counseling situation where this person's talking and you're like, Oh Lord, When they stop talking, I have no idea what to say.
01:04:57
Eric Schumacher
And
01:04:59
Eric Schumacher
that guy that's listening to this, like, man, you need to say right now to Jesus, I don't know what to do in this situation, but I need to go home and I need to sit down with my wife and I need to say, this is off and this is wrong and I don't know how to fix it, but Jesus can help.
01:05:17
Eric Schumacher
And that's just the starting point. And you ask, Jesus, help me. And he's going And you just keep pressing on.
01:05:29
Eric Schumacher
And you're in faith. And you're going to be amazed by how Christ's power is perfected in your weakness.
01:05:37
Ken Freire
Yeah. Eric, I love that, man. We'll wrap it up there. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. For those of you, I'm going to put in the show notes to follow Eric. I'd encourage you to check out his book, The Good Gift of Weakness. I am
Conclusion: Embracing weakness as spiritual strength.
01:05:52
Ken Freire
about halfway through at the start of this recording, and it's been immensely helpful. I mean, there's things that Eric has said in that book that I was like, and probably I've allowed this conversation to go along, because it's just so good.
01:06:02
Eric Schumacher
Mm-hmm.
01:06:03
Ken Freire
Most books, most preachers don't even talk about this concept. Everything is trying to figure how do we always look strong. So Eric, thank you, thank you, thank you. And also bonus, if you do read the book, Eric's wit comes out throughout the book. So it's actually funny and you could actually like, it's engaging.
01:06:21
Ken Freire
So you're not just like reading a theological novel. It is really good theologically, but I've really enjoyed it. So Eric, thank you so much for being on the podcast, man.
01:06:30
Eric Schumacher
Thanks, Ken. I've enjoyed it.
01:06:33
Ken Freire
Yeah, men, like I tell you all the time, as you are going throughout the day, throughout the week, keep killing shame, stand strong in Christ, and be on mission. Hope guys have a great day, and God bless.