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We watch "Alliances" (S2 Ep.14)
23 Plays1 year ago
We watch "Alliances" (S2 Ep.14)
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Alliances" in which we me meet someone more dishonorable than the Kazon! Plus, there is a lot of laughing at kittens off-camera - sorry!
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Theme music by Alain D
Recommended
Transcript
Opening Fluster and Team Introduction
00:00:02
red23
It's always literally luck that I play the right jingle, because they basically have the same name.
00:00:09
Jen
Oh, so we might get...
00:00:09
El Platypo
I mean, I i i was, um well, surprised that the music comes on.
00:00:17
Jen
It's becoming familiar to me now, I expect it.
00:00:19
El Platypo
but
00:00:21
red23
And I'll play this out, so over to you, Jamie.
00:00:24
El Platypo
Wait, hang on. That wasn't as long as normal. I was expecting at least another 20 seconds.
00:00:29
red23
Oh, no, we're not.
00:00:29
El Platypo
No, no. You're trying to place me under pressure now that I'm moderating, Red. Come on. You've just gotten so used to carrying me normally that now you're taking out your resentment.
00:00:39
El Platypo
Oh my gosh. Well, I must say I'm somewhat flustered at the start of this. Our latest podcast on episode 14 of Season 2 Star Trek Voyager, Alliances, and I'm very happy to do say that I'm joined by my co-podcasters, the
Star Trek Voyager Episode Summary
00:00:56
El Platypo
R and the J.
00:00:56
El Platypo
How are you both?
00:00:57
red23
Oh very good, thank you Jamie.
00:01:00
Jen
Thumbs up.
00:01:00
El Platypo
You you sound a little bit gobsmacked and the J is good as well. So, I'm sure all of our many listeners know how we normally get about this, and to start off with, we typically go with the one minute summary in which red puts me under ad lib pressure. For once, I have actually written something down for the one minute summary, and it is a line that says that we start off with 80s movie The Warriors in space.
00:01:25
El Platypo
which basically is the story of a gang caught behind the lines of all the other gangs in New York trying to find their way home. And we start off with Star Trek Voyager being chased by an armada, an absolute armada, of cazon vessels. Now having driven them off and found itself incurring damage,
00:01:47
El Platypo
The episode discusses and takes us through the crew's experience as they try and decide how to navigate a complex and isolated sphere of space, wondering whether to stick with their Starfleet principles, or whether to adapt a more pragmatic marquee approach to allying themselves with the local factions in the region.
On-Air Quarrels and Entertainment
00:02:09
El Platypo
And the plot thickens on. How are you both feeling about that as a summary, eh?
00:02:15
red23
Very good, Jamie, as always.
00:02:17
Jen
Yep, round of applause.
00:02:19
red23
um
00:02:19
El Platypo
Thank you, thank you.
00:02:20
El Platypo
I'll take it in kitten hugs.
00:02:20
red23
I think I should also get some credit for not falling for your second meeting.
00:02:21
Jen
Take a bow.
00:02:26
red23
How long have we known each other, Jamie? But your fake outrage at the beginning. Not only that, I'd be defending myself. Be like, oh, it's an I want you at this. And I just quietly took it all and realized that I need to.
00:02:37
El Platypo
I mean, ah could could I offer the context to our listeners that I explained to Red just before she keyed the credits music that what should I normally do when I was saying anything at the start of these episodes is provoke some specious quarrel with Red to make it sound as though we've been caught bickering as the music comes on, which I'm sure will come as no surprise to our listeners who know me, but Red, it seems to take you by surprise every time apart from when I explain it right before the music, which is gratifying.
00:02:53
Jen
hahaha
00:03:04
red23
I know, because actually I was listening to our last episode and producing, and that is exactly what we you did at the start of that one, so I couldn't clap them.
00:03:09
Jen
yeah
00:03:11
red23
And then I was like, ah.
00:03:11
El Platypo
strike It's tried and tested.
00:03:15
red23
um
00:03:16
El Platypo
um But yes, just to ask a good question.
80s Video Game and Cartoon References
00:03:19
El Platypo
Have either of you guys watched The Warriors? I saw red, your face would have changed a little bit as I said it, but if that's a no.
00:03:27
red23
No, the reason why you said 80s reminds you of 80s warrior. And I think, I mean, this is, I'll throw this point in here. The start of the episode reminded me of this game. We used to play on our desktop computer when I was like a teenager, maybe called Demonstar.
00:03:40
El Platypo
oh
00:03:44
red23
I had to try to look it up where you just like a spaceship kind of in the shape of those caisson or trade ships.
00:03:45
El Platypo
Demon Star!
00:03:51
red23
And you just go left, right, right, right, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, up, down, left, right, shoot, shoot, shoot,
00:03:54
Jen
Oh yeah, that sounds familiar actually, especially the shape of the ship.
00:03:56
El Platypo
Amazing!
00:04:00
Jen
Maybe it was called something different.
00:04:03
El Platypo
Do guys know, and I don't know what's provoked this, do you ever know if there was ever a Bucky O'Hare video game?
00:04:09
red23
Hey, what now?
00:04:11
El Platypo
Bucky- Red, no. Tell me you've heard of Bucky O'Hare.
00:04:16
red23
I don't think so, but I also
00:04:17
El Platypo
so so So basically it was, you know, these gallant galactic rabbits fighting off an invasion and occupation of evil toads. But basically every episode was the starting scene of ah this episode with multiple ah toad spaceships chasing down Bucky O'Hare and his gallant crew. And basically the gunner was a forearm duck who said every episode it's time to croak some toads.
00:04:45
El Platypo
um And that just sort of reminded me of it. Forgive me, I...
00:04:48
red23
Oh my gosh, I have to watch that now. What's it called?
00:04:50
El Platypo
Ah, it's an absolute classic. Bucky O'Hare.
00:04:53
red23
Also, you reminded me because there's- did you say there are rabbits?
Kangaroo Memories and Film Divergence
00:04:58
El Platypo
Yes, yes they are.
00:04:58
red23
Oh man, that made me think of kangaroos.
00:04:59
El Platypo
They're space rabbits.
00:05:01
red23
And I really want to rewatch Tank Girl. That's a whole different story.
00:05:04
El Platypo
Ooh, what is Tango?
00:05:07
red23
It's ah kangaroos in distributed space or on Earth, I'm not sure.
00:05:13
Jen
Oh wow.
00:05:14
red23
But since I according to hate kangaroos, I now understand why they were chosen to be these like hardcore characters.
00:05:14
El Platypo
I see.
00:05:19
red23
From what I remember.
00:05:20
El Platypo
What? Why do you? ah No, I can't go with that tangent, I'm sorry, but as ever, it falls to me to reassert order and take us out of this rabbit hole, even if I took us down this rabbit hole by actually naming the literal rabbit that took us there. Now, to go back to this, I almost feel like we've done our one cool thing, the fact that actually it reminds you of video games of your youth thread, but does anyone else have a cool thing?
Initial Reactions to Voyager Episode
00:05:45
El Platypo
Or do you want to talk about that cool thing? How shall we do this game?
00:05:50
red23
Uh, no, maybe just initial reactions, because that's what I always forget, so I'm just giving you a little tip here. Don't forget that, Jamie!
00:05:57
El Platypo
Oh, no, no, i I shan't. I mean, I'm very much going from this list. If this seems like the podcast version of that time Boris Johnson did, have I got news for you and misread the teleprompter?
00:05:59
red23
Oh, okay, okay.
00:06:05
El Platypo
It's not quite at that level. It's just the British accent bringing us there. But all of that having been said, one cool thing, or are we going to jump straight to initial reactions?
00:06:16
red23
Initial reactions.
00:06:17
Jen
I have no cool things. Yeah, I agree with Red.
00:06:19
El Platypo
Ah, damn, because my initial reaction is is slightly at odds in tone with a slightly bumptious rollercoaster through the start of this that I've attempted to generate through mindless, ah well, hype.
Themes of Oppression and Society
00:06:33
El Platypo
But basically, I thought this episode was very topical and very much focused on a cycle you actually often see in Star Trek where they contrast two civilizations with historical oppression,
00:06:48
El Platypo
that being thrown off, recrimination cycles, and the question how long after being the oppressor and then being made into the oppressed, does a grievance have merit? Doesn't that make sense to you both? Because often that sort of cycle of one race being kept enslaved by another, throwing off those shackles, taking I don't want to say disproportionate revenge, but an ongoing revenge so that when both protagonists race is are encountered, the one which was originally oppressed seems to be the oppressed source.
00:07:23
red23
Yeah.
00:07:24
El Platypo
And then we find out a bit more. And it it just seems a ah theme in Star Trek, but also quite a theme in, well, frankly, human society and interactions between nations, especially.
00:07:36
El Platypo
I don't know everyone's thoughts on it, but yeah.
00:07:41
red23
No, I mean, I agree. But I think it's like but yes this is why revenge is like ah even on a very small scale revenge is like such a dumb idea because i don't know if you're like in a gang and someone gets shot then someone has to shoot someone from that gang and someone has to shoot someone from the back but like i'm like where does it end it doesn't make a lot of sense to me um so yeah i definitely agree and i think well i don't know i'm sure i don't know but the phrase that always comes to mind is like well the bully becomes the bully you know well
00:07:58
Jen
Hm.
Revenge and Leadership Morality
00:08:10
El Platypo
yeah people often visit on others what uh gets reflected on them sorry i've taken this rather down rather bleak initial hole well that was my sort of Maybe that part remained best in the, or should have been best in the theme section of it, but Jenny, did you have any initial reactions before we go to the things we found cool about this?
00:08:29
Jen
Yeah, I mean, I thought it was a pretty good one. I must confess, I was a bit, I kept having things crop up um throughout watching this. So I feel like I didn't, it didn't get as much full attention as it deserved.
00:08:38
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:08:42
Jen
But I did find the storyline really interesting. And, you know, the theme that you've already touched upon.
00:08:50
El Platypo
hmm oh interesting okay nice um right so thoughts on the episode i think everyone for once including myself who's the worst at uh putting down some thoughts basically put uh quite a bit of content here because they clearly thought that i needed the help as the moderation which i'm grateful for as i do but um
00:08:51
Jen
Initial reaction is pretty good.
00:08:56
red23
All right,
00:09:04
red23
good.
00:09:16
El Platypo
Red, would you care to take us through your first bit? Because I like that. I think that's a really nice bit that you put in there. But, you know, I don't want to take a thunder. Hit us.
00:09:26
red23
which Which bit do you mean?
00:09:28
El Platypo
Oh, oh, i'm I'm just reading from the top down.
00:09:31
red23
Okay, so you mean the opening sequence bits?
00:09:36
red23
Oh,
00:09:36
El Platypo
No, your first bit in blue about the top notch wisdom.
00:09:39
red23
oh you mean Jenny.
00:09:40
Jen
I'm blue.
00:09:41
El Platypo
Oh, God. Oh, right.
00:09:42
Jen
that
00:09:43
El Platypo
My bad. Sorry. Jenny's in blue. Come on. I mean, this, this has completely gone off the rails.
00:09:47
red23
um
00:09:49
El Platypo
I'm sorry.
00:09:50
Jen
This does raise an interesting point, though, because I noticed that, like, I think, Jane, you tend to read through of everyone else's notes beforehand, whereas I never read anyone else's before because I want to hear them for the first time from you guys.
00:09:50
El Platypo
Sorry. This is right.
00:10:04
Jen
um So I never have any idea what you're going to say until the actual session.
00:10:07
El Platypo
Nice.
00:10:08
Jen
Is that just me?
00:10:09
red23
Oh, but Jamie did that thing, which I thought was quite fun when he moderated, which is he went and picked up points and then was like, now talk about that point you said.
00:10:09
Jen
but
00:10:16
red23
So I guess that does do something.
00:10:16
Jen
That's true.
00:10:18
El Platypo
it's It's just mostly an unusual opportunity to order people around.
00:10:18
red23
But i um but yes, red isn't red and Jenny isn't blue.
00:10:21
El Platypo
I don't really get that very often, so you know any opportunity.
00:10:31
El Platypo
Honestly, Jenny, how how missca how deceptive can you be? I expected you to be in red. Right, Jenny can.
00:10:39
Jen
Oh, so I'm going to be fine.
00:10:39
El Platypo
Do this.
00:10:40
Jen
Well, I mean, I can forgive you for thinking that's the right point because it is quite I reckon
00:10:45
red23
It said too much.
00:10:46
Jen
Yeah it's like praising Tuvok so I mean it's gotta be a red point as well.
00:10:51
El Platypo
Mm-hmm.
00:10:52
Jen
Yeah I just really enjoyed the Tuvok wisdom, no more great lines, more great wisdom um and I haven't got it quite quite right but it was something along the lines of that even temporary stability can inspire more permanent peace when he's talking about you know
00:11:05
El Platypo
Mm.
00:11:09
Jen
but potentially forming an alliance and all but they're going to leave the quadrant at some point and so you know it'll all descend into you know war and madness and death as soon as they leave and so what's the point what's the point of trying you know like I think you know you could have that tendency to you know despair and therefore why why bother at all but I like that point that you know you don't think it won't make any difference but you never know there might be this spark of inspiration that might lead to something more positive
00:11:17
El Platypo
Mm.
00:11:38
El Platypo
but Because for our for our listeners, the main premise of this episode is the moral dilemma facing the crew of the Voyager is to, if they should, make an alliance with the caisson factions of the region who they are inimically opposed to and philosophically prevented from doing so by
Janeway and Tuvok's Relationship
00:11:58
El Platypo
the Starfleet Prime Directive.
00:12:00
El Platypo
But Red, i might I might sort of jump to yours then, because i I sort of feel like this takes us to the question of marquee tactic and Starfleet principles, and I found your thought on that one very, very interesting indeed, because it almost felt like a little bit of an artificial contrast of things meant for different situations, as that dilemma was teased out through this this episode.
00:12:28
red23
ah Yes, um I guess I'll separately just reread what I wrote. but um um I think it was I also really love that scene, Jenny and we found a a bit more about two buck and Janeways.
00:12:41
red23
They have such a like a intimate relationship, but you find out that you hardly ever visit him in his crew quarters. So they don't hang out, I guess, outside of hours that often. um And yet they're so close.
00:12:49
Jen
That was a surprise, yeah, to me too.
00:12:51
red23
So I thought that was interesting. But yeah,
00:12:55
El Platypo
I feel like not many people visit Tuvok though.
00:12:55
red23
but
00:12:59
red23
That's true. Maybe he doesn't like visitors. I don't know.
00:13:02
Jen
Yeah, maybe she knows him so well, but she knows not to visit. but Can I add one tiny extra thing to my last comment? Because I realize I wrote it and it's very much related.
00:13:10
El Platypo
Hmm. Oh, yes.
00:13:13
Jen
um Also, during that whole scene and that whole speech, I really enjoyed the whole name dropping of Spock.
00:13:20
red23
Yes!
00:13:21
Jen
And the you know like argument of oh remember when the Klingons were this um it's aggressive and dangerous warmongering race and then they signed a treaty and now look at us you know we've got a half Klingon on the ship and everything's fabulous.
00:13:35
El Platypo
Hmm. Did the Klingons ever stop being sort of warm, hungry and dangerous, though?
00:13:38
Jen
I just enjoyed that.
00:13:44
red23
Good question.
00:13:45
Jen
Yeah I mean I don't know the
00:13:47
red23
But they on they are on behalf of Starfleet.
00:13:51
Jen
Thank
00:13:53
El Platypo
I mean, to relegate an entire Star Trek race to, they are Starfleet's stick.
00:13:57
Jen
you.
00:13:59
red23
No.
00:13:59
El Platypo
Oh, red.
00:14:01
El Platypo
No, I get that.
00:14:01
red23
the but yeah That was a good point from Tuvok.
00:14:03
El Platypo
but um
00:14:06
El Platypo
But, but forgive me, I genuinely took your way from i view your comment around the marquee tactics and Starfleet principles contrast and your view there missing.
00:14:18
red23
Oh, no, I was gonna say, I mean, it was most, I guess prompted by there was that crewman before a the former marquee guy who's like, goes up to Jamie's like, just give them what they want.
00:14:19
El Platypo
Sorry, go for it.
00:14:28
red23
Give them I don't care if they have our replicators or our teleporters or something. um And everyone, I don't know, everyone was looking at it from like those two perspectives. But I was like, isn't it just a bad idea to give them this technology for the voyages immediate and midterm safety because
00:14:42
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:14:46
red23
These are not people you can trust and you hand them some technology.
00:14:47
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:14:49
red23
They have teleporter technology.
00:14:50
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:14:50
red23
They could teleport you all off the ship and take your ship. I don't know. So in a sense, yes, the January is guided by those principles, but they kept framing it as like not interfering in other people.
00:15:02
red23
But I was like, I think this is also for your own protection.
00:15:05
Jen
Huh.
00:15:05
red23
Yeah.
00:15:05
El Platypo
Yeah, and and one can't imagine them our key tactical handbook telling you to give Something that gives someone the power to harm you to them as a great tactical move I mean one can't imagine that being on my key tactical handbook either, but you know, that's sort of a separate thing entirely
00:15:07
Jen
Good point.
00:15:12
red23
Yes. ah
00:15:17
red23
Very good point.
Critique of Episode's Funeral Scene
00:15:23
El Platypo
um Yeah, no, I completely agree with that I feel that um Gosh by contrast with your guys things mine um
00:15:23
red23
Yes, I agree.
00:15:34
El Platypo
mine just feel very very trite indeed i mean do you mind oh good good good should we should we order a round of trite ones then um so
00:15:38
red23
Oh, I have some trite ones.
00:15:40
Jen
I have some very very um yes good my next one is very
00:15:40
red23
I have so much fun.
00:15:44
red23
Yes, so.
00:15:46
El Platypo
my My first one can almost be sort of said easily at at the ah the funeral service for the poor crewman, I think it was Bandera, um who sadly passed away.
00:15:46
Jen
but
00:15:59
El Platypo
He gets the last post played for him on the most teeny bugle, literally the size of a finger, which I find a little bit weird. So yeah, that was my first try one.
00:16:10
El Platypo
But the second, go for it, go for it.
00:16:10
red23
Well, can I quickly just add to that is, yes, it was not an appropriate reaction, but I was like, it's Captain Pontrap from The Sound of Music, because doesn't he use that same instrument to summon his children?
00:16:13
El Platypo
Yes.
00:16:19
Jen
ah
00:16:23
red23
That's the only time I've ever seen that instrument being used before.
00:16:26
Jen
I thought that was a specific thing that's used on ships when someone boys at sea.
00:16:27
El Platypo
yes
00:16:27
red23
but so
00:16:31
red23
Yes, I think it is, but that they would also use that in Captain Pontrap because he was a naval commander or something, right?
00:16:33
El Platypo
Oh gosh.
00:16:39
Jen
Ah, yeah.
00:16:39
El Platypo
Oh, that's hilarious. Are you serious? Like, uh, yeah.
00:16:43
Jen
And you've never seen it before, Jay?
00:16:45
red23
Yeah, thanks.
00:16:46
El Platypo
I mean, I also love the idea that we feel we're being inappropriately non-solemn for a Star Trek episode.
00:16:55
red23
Yes, I mean, I felt I shouldn't be associating this.
00:16:55
El Platypo
Not treating it with the gravity it deserves for a fictional death.
00:16:59
red23
Yes, but it's just a TV show. But yes, just to confirm, naval captain, Captain Quantraff.
00:17:06
El Platypo
tur hurt to But Jay, on to you. Do you want to sort of match us with another trite point?
Unexpected Romance in Meal Scene
00:17:16
red23
Oh, quite quiet.
00:17:19
El Platypo
You've gone very quiet. You've gone quiet, Jen.
00:17:21
Jen
Oh, I'm sorry.
00:17:23
Jen
i did i did the I did the really embarrassing, I'm just technologically um useless muting, forgetting I was on muting, so sorry about that.
00:17:23
El Platypo
Sorry.
00:17:24
El Platypo
Oh, we can hear you now.
00:17:32
red23
But but before before Jenny gives her trite point, I just want to go back because, Jenny, you acted surprised that none of us have seen that instrument before, so you seem to be more familiar with it.
00:17:36
Jen
I don't
00:17:42
red23
oh From- From exposure!
00:17:44
Jen
know why.
00:17:44
El Platypo
She uses it to summon me for supper.
00:17:46
Jen
Oh yes, that's from my 10 years in the Navy.
00:17:47
El Platypo
She uses it to summon me for supper.
00:17:50
red23
So you- You did spend 10 years in the Navy, is that what you're doing? I guess.
00:17:54
Jen
I don't know why I would know that. I just have this idea that that's what they they do when they bury people.
00:17:59
red23
Ah, okay.
00:17:59
Jen
at sea It must have been in a movie or something or a book. I'm afraid I would tell you.
00:18:04
red23
I'm not sure what happened at your old drawing club, but it sounds like it was pretty serious.
00:18:08
Jen
I think I probably watched just too many like Steven Seagal movies or something. I don't know. Action movies and I don't think where it's from.
00:18:14
red23
Oh.
00:18:15
El Platypo
Oh, wow. Steven Seagal.
00:18:18
red23
What a reference.
00:18:18
Jen
That's the only thing I can think of.
00:18:22
El Platypo
What a legend of, you know, the 20th century.
00:18:22
red23
Oh.
00:18:22
Jen
um
00:18:27
Jen
um But what I was saying when I was muted was I'm very happy to go ahead with my tripe point, ah but I realized that I actually don't really know what tripe means. It's a bit embarrassing. I'll just tripe me.
00:18:37
El Platypo
Silly. Silly and of little solemnity.
00:18:39
red23
Prevalence point.
00:18:40
Jen
See each other. Okay, good. I kind of felt like that was what it meant, but you know when you just think, do I actually know what that means?
00:18:43
El Platypo
How day.
00:18:46
Jen
it means then
00:18:48
El Platypo
Aww.
00:18:49
Jen
I think I did yes it's very, um it doesn't really have a point or anything but um I just found it quite strange when they had the um sumptuous meal with the trade.
00:18:59
El Platypo
Mm.
00:19:01
Jen
It felt very romantic. There was a lot of candles and mood lighting.
00:19:05
El Platypo
Mm.
00:19:08
Jen
um
00:19:08
red23
I had a very nice decanter. And to pick up on your point, I mean, I didn't quite get the, I didn't quite notice the lighting in that romantic atmosphere.
00:19:10
El Platypo
Yes.
00:19:17
red23
Like I didn't, what I mean by, not to say that I didn't like pick it up, but I didn't consciously pick it up.
00:19:19
Jen
They had candles.
00:19:22
red23
But what I consciously picked up was when she, he just told her that they like imprisoned and slaveryized these people, whatever.
00:19:30
El Platypo
yeah could
00:19:31
red23
And she goes up and she gets really close and pulls him a drink in a very like intimate way.
00:19:36
El Platypo
catch his way yeah and yeah
00:19:38
red23
intimate way. So yeah, I picked up ah other elements of that scene but that probably contribute to the same feeling, I think.
00:19:44
Jen
Hmm.
00:19:45
El Platypo
I mean, Reggie preempted me because I was about to ask if Janeway passed the port to her left ah for reasons which various of our friends in various guilds would understand, um possibly influenced by the fact that I was recently watching on YouTube ah Bill Bailey's ah If Love Island was set in the Victorian era,
Neelix's Role and Overreaction
00:20:05
El Platypo
ah which of course is topical, but actually it was amazing.
00:20:05
red23
ah
00:20:07
Jen
Oh, that sounds great. I wouldn't see that.
00:20:10
El Platypo
I'll show you the link.
00:20:10
red23
Yeah, that sounds good.
00:20:12
El Platypo
But so actually, for just for our listeners, I wanted to explain the context of they hadn't seen the episode, that the sumptuous dinner that Jenny is referring to is when having happened upon a multitude of prisoners from a race known as the Trabe, Neelix and Starfleet or Voyager,
00:20:35
El Platypo
break them out of imprisonment and run off with a load of their ships and then on having extricated them from captivity find out their story which was as Jenny said they had kept the entirety of the caisson in captivity for generations only for rebellion to occur and the caisson to visit on them the exact same treatment that the trade visited on the caisson just for that context Now, the reason why I went with that explanation was because I wanted it to pivot to my favorite, favorite topic of all on this podcast.
00:21:09
El Platypo
Now, can you guess what's coming?
00:21:11
red23
Neelix.
00:21:12
El Platypo
Neelix. Neelix, as ever, and his folly, is the mechanism for this happening. And it all starts when Neelix tries to fit in at a caisson strip club and gets busted and thrown into prison with the tray.
00:21:23
Jen
Oh yes.
00:21:28
El Platypo
at which stage all of the breakout happens and Neelix manages to engineer this alliance between Voyager and the trade, who happened to turn out to be this ever so slightly slaverizing race that was not expected. But I think the key point to point out that is, again, we've discovered something new about Neelix, which is that he can't fit in at a strip club. He looked like a hedgehog at a badger convention.
00:21:57
red23
I thought he seemed pretty up, however that's a strip club.
00:22:01
Jen
So did I! Yeah, I get a different view.
00:22:02
red23
ah
00:22:03
El Platypo
Porquez. Porquez. The things you're saying about her husband.
00:22:07
Jen
But he used to be, um you know, in places like that quite a lot, didn't he?
00:22:09
El Platypo
A stripper? Neelix used to be a stripper?
00:22:12
Jen
But when first picked him up, he was like this sort of junkyard tradesman and hanging out in dodgy places.
00:22:16
red23
He had that pimp coat!
00:22:19
El Platypo
He had that pimp coat!
00:22:20
Jen
Yes, I think so!
00:22:21
El Platypo
What the hell? We've gone from he was a stripper to he was a pimp.
00:22:23
red23
it's all
00:22:26
El Platypo
Neelix was many things, but good were the ladies or good on the dance floor.
00:22:27
Jen
hey you just it He was a dodgy tradesman, you know, he knew he knew all the places to go and the dodgy bars, so I think he was at home really.
00:22:29
El Platypo
No.
00:22:36
Jen
He was just, do you know what it was though? I got the impression that he used to be very comfortable there, that he'd been so long with Voyager and with, you know, this crew with all these principles and stuff that he went back thinking he'd feel right at home because he'd spent so long there before, and actually maybe it realised, he realised that he started to change a little bit and become a little bit more straight-laced. And I just basically invented this whole backstory.
00:23:03
Jen
ah to the
00:23:03
red23
Oh my god! I think...
00:23:04
El Platypo
ah Are you seeing him like a wrongo?
00:23:05
red23
I think you're right.
00:23:07
El Platypo
I'm just calling him incompetent. You're telling me that he's a seedy sort of but back alley dirt merchant. That's horrific, but also quite hilarious.
00:23:14
Jen
I'm not a very successful one, but you know.
00:23:18
El Platypo
ah Hey, that's fair.
00:23:21
red23
Ah!
00:23:22
El Platypo
Go it, go for it.
00:23:22
red23
I don't know. I was gonna say I have a trite point that connects to both of these moments, I think.
00:23:27
El Platypo
o
00:23:27
Jen
Excellent, another trade point.
00:23:28
El Platypo
Hit us, hit us with tripe. Hit us with tripe, yeah, not tripe.
00:23:32
red23
Because, you know, I think it was Neelix who said he wanted the sumptuous meal. um And it was, and it was after spending those terrible two hours in the, in the encampment, because he was, when he was said said, like, the food hasn't been very a good where we've been. And he was two hours late for the rendezvous, which means he was in captivity for less than two hours. I just thought that was,
00:23:59
El Platypo
Oh, dude.
00:24:00
red23
A little bit excessive from Neelix, but anyway.
00:24:02
Jen
And do you know what you've maybe realized Red, I now think I understand why there was like candlelight and it because it was probably something that Neelix had prepared wasn't it and he does tend to go a bit overboard on the food, food serving.
00:24:08
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:24:13
red23
Oh, yes.
00:24:15
Jen
um So it all makes sense. like
00:24:18
El Platypo
But can we can we take an action for someone to go back and rewatch the scene and check if Janeway passes the port in the correct direction?
00:24:19
red23
That stream.
00:24:25
red23
She paused from her right, I think.
00:24:28
El Platypo
It's not whether she pulls from her right, it's which way she passes the port.
00:24:31
red23
okay
00:24:32
Jen
I think it's, well she stands up doesn't she and goes round and then she, I think it's right.
00:24:36
red23
a
00:24:37
El Platypo
Yeah, but which way round is she going? That's the important thing. These these are important. She goes right!
00:24:42
Jen
ah
00:24:43
El Platypo
oh Red, does your...
00:24:44
Jen
I don't know, I just want to think what you think.
00:24:47
El Platypo
unshakable conviction in Janeway's leadership stand, knowing that she paused the port in the wrong direction.
00:24:50
red23
okay well i haven't been hanging out at these fancy places that you put where you put port in the wrong or right direction like you guys so it's quite a few whatever she does
00:25:00
Jen
Jay's given this impression that we're like constantly at some suave secret guild member dinners.
00:25:07
El Platypo
i would I would like to point out that I'd like to disavow myself from the impression being given of me by Janian Redd. I always pass the port in the correct direction.
00:25:17
red23
Okay. And that direction is lift.
00:25:19
El Platypo
Outrageous.
00:25:21
El Platypo
If you don't know, you'll have to find out, but I can't be told.
00:25:23
red23
like Okay.
00:25:25
Jen
yes
00:25:26
El Platypo
Forgive me. um I obviously don't mean any of that, but it's fun to flounce around and pretend like one is unreasonably posh-o. Now, shall we, for a change, rather than my frivolous dotting about, go back to the sequence?
00:25:41
El Platypo
So, Jenny, I think this lands the handle of fate back in your direction. Which is your next point? What's your next thing that you wanted to bring to the attention of the group, the listeners and the universe?
00:25:48
Jen
Oh.
00:25:54
Jen
Well, thank you very much. That is quite an introduction. I wish I had a better point.
00:25:58
El Platypo
Well, I just thought I'd go over the top.
00:26:01
Jen
um But it just occurred to me that a certain scene seemed very familiar in this. I wondered if it inspired a scene in a more recent movie.
Comparison with Star Trek Into Darkness
00:26:11
red23
who
00:26:11
Jen
um So, you know, the whole attempted slaughter of the whole um leadership team of what they call Tazon.
00:26:12
El Platypo
Ooh.
00:26:19
El Platypo
leadership team.
00:26:21
Jen
leadership team.
00:26:22
red23
Senior leadership team, SLT.
00:26:22
Jen
That's my corporate jargon.
00:26:23
El Platypo
me
00:26:26
red23
ah
00:26:26
Jen
Yeah. What were they called? Marge. Marge.
00:26:29
red23
The mauges now.
00:26:29
El Platypo
Yeah, the premier marge.
00:26:30
Jen
Yeah. All the first marches. Anyway, and you get this, um you know, they someone's brought them to a room to have some kind of piece, some kind of conference where in fact, someone's gonna fly a spaceship outside and try and shoot them all through it and murder them all.
00:26:44
Jen
ah Yeah, I just thought, is that where they got that scene for Star Trek Into Darkness as well?
00:26:46
red23
Ooh.
00:26:51
El Platypo
ah si is
00:26:51
Jen
Do you know which one I mean? when them ah Oh, what's his name? Sherlock Holmes.
00:26:57
El Platypo
Space
00:26:58
Jen
um
00:26:58
red23
But I don't come about.
00:26:59
Jen
Yes, that's the one. Benedict Cumberbatch, who's being caught, yeah, um tries to to kill all the Starfleet officers because they're having some kind of emergency conference, which he initiates
00:27:02
El Platypo
Sherlock Con.
00:27:05
red23
Oh.
00:27:09
red23
Oh, amazing.
00:27:13
Jen
ah just thought
00:27:14
red23
Very, very well could be.
00:27:14
Jen
very similar
00:27:17
El Platypo
I mean, I should point out for our ah listeners that Jenny talked through that entire thing while cats were running across her keyboard and she was sort of fending them out of her face, which I think just makes it that much more impressive.
00:27:24
red23
Wow.
00:27:29
El Platypo
But I'd also like to say that, yeah, I completely agree. It's almost a like-for-like
00:27:36
El Platypo
leadership group assassination exercise uh which is undertaken in both to to the point of having a spaceship hovering outside and absolutely blasting a room inaccurately um so in in both cases it's yeah is that yeah is that how you um
00:27:37
Jen
I just thought that's very similar. Yeah.
00:27:47
red23
Oh!
00:27:52
red23
I need to watch Into Darkness.
00:27:53
Jen
and having yeah And the and they the weather villain who's blasting them has arranged for that. They've sort of under false pretenses caused this conference of leaders to happen so that they can then go and try to murder them through a shooting spaceship through the window.
00:28:12
El Platypo
is Is that how you perform a decapitation strike on an enemy government group in that universe? In Star Trek universe?
00:28:19
red23
That's not know how you're supposed to behave with Star Trek. That's why it's so shocking.
00:28:22
El Platypo
No, just just how you do that particular action in Star Trek.
00:28:25
red23
Oh, I see, Anthony.
00:28:25
El Platypo
I'm sorry.
00:28:27
Jen
ah That's what the Star Trek baddies do. That's the the typical Star Trek baddie move I get.
00:28:29
El Platypo
a
00:28:31
red23
Well, I like the idea that whoever wrote Into Darkness was familiar with Star Trek in the first place, so I'm sure they could have done that on purpose.
00:28:35
Jen
Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:40
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:28:40
Jen
i thought I thought that would be pretty cool.
00:28:40
red23
Well.
00:28:42
Jen
I mean, because it's quite a good scene in Voyager, I think. But um I also think it's brilliant in Star Trek and Stark, because I'm a big fan of that movie.
00:28:53
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:28:54
Jen
um
00:28:54
El Platypo
I think that movie's incredible, especially the soundtrack.
00:28:58
Jen
Hmm, especially...
00:28:59
red23
Okay, I've written it down. So, uh, Bucky O'Hare and Into Darkness or TV.
00:29:02
Jen
Have you not seen Interdarkness Red?
00:29:05
red23
No, I'm not, you know, i as I said many times before, I'm not really a movie person.
00:29:08
Jen
I can't believe I never knew this about you.
00:29:09
red23
I'm more a TV person.
00:29:12
Jen
My goodness.
00:29:13
El Platypo
this
00:29:14
Jen
Wow.
00:29:14
red23
But, um, I did watch, I forced myself to watch, I mean, Wrath of Khan, because everyone goes on about how brilliant it is as of back, but that is quick.
00:29:15
El Platypo
We should have sat her down and made her watch it when she came round.
00:29:15
Jen
I would watch... What
00:29:23
El Platypo
Ooh.
00:29:24
Jen
is...
00:29:26
red23
Um,
00:29:26
Jen
What did you think?
00:29:27
El Platypo
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:28
red23
I think I did enjoy it, but it it was just, I mean, now, you know, I think it it would be a little bit quicker pace these days.
00:29:37
El Platypo
yeah
00:29:37
Jen
yeah
00:29:37
red23
But, uh, yeah, so as in, it takes me, for some reason, I like a lot of people have posted on like Instagram, why can I watch eight episodes of a TV series, but I can't watch a movie.
00:29:42
Jen
Yeah.
00:29:48
El Platypo
yes
00:29:49
Jen
Oh, I love a good movie.
00:29:50
red23
It doesn't make sense.
00:29:51
El Platypo
i think it's cause now I'm not going to try and mansplain my way into that one.
00:29:56
red23
You know what it is? It's because I don't want to have to get to know people from scratch.
00:29:58
El Platypo
Ooh.
00:30:01
red23
You get to know people in a TV series and you just carry on hanging out with those people.
00:30:04
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:30:05
red23
Every time you watch a film, you want to get to know all these new people and then you never see them again.
00:30:05
Jen
Oh yeah. i I do know, yeah, I do know what you mean. And I feel that way a little bit sometimes about books, like i I, I mean, I do feel like all a lot of the best books are just the one off, you know, story and characters.
00:30:13
red23
Yes.
00:30:13
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:30:20
Jen
But if there is a book that I find that like, and I find that it is a series, it is makes me very happy.
00:30:28
red23
Yes.
00:30:28
Jen
Yes, I can go back. And speaking of which, there's a new book out. that is one of JNI's favorite, um like, fancy sci-fi authors. And he's just after, like, what feels like years, he's just released last week.
00:30:37
El Platypo
Oh, Miles Cameron, yeah.
00:30:41
red23
Ooh, what's that?
00:30:42
Jen
Another one.
00:30:44
El Platypo
Yeah, see.
00:30:44
red23
What but what series?
00:30:46
El Platypo
oh the artifact spade, oh sorry, ah the series is called the Arcana Imperae, which translates, I'm informed, to the Secrets of Empire, but it is about the exploits of Maka and Baro as part of the merchant navy of the democrat, or or the DHC, which is a massive pan-human space trading combine as they make first contact with an alien race and foil a species-wide conspiracy to bring humanity back to the ages of chaos.
00:31:21
red23
Cool.
00:31:23
El Platypo
But it's also fantastic just because of the, as much as the plot, it's the world building of effectively a crew in a space navy and how that would feel for months and years and end of journey.
00:31:38
Jen
Me too, yeah.
00:31:38
El Platypo
And I just love it.
00:31:39
El Platypo
It's absolutely incredible.
00:31:39
red23
Okay.
00:31:40
El Platypo
The second book I think is just as good as the first, by the way.
00:31:43
red23
Oh, how many books are there in this series?
00:31:43
El Platypo
um
00:31:44
red23
Only two.
00:31:46
El Platypo
So two so far, there's a third one to come.
00:31:47
red23
Okay, no wonder you're waiting in anticipation.
00:31:50
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:31:50
Jen
Well, I am now, I'm basically just finished, because it's just come out last week, the second one. I'm just trying to finish the book I'm currently on before I start.
00:32:00
El Platypo
this
00:32:00
Jen
So I haven't started yet, but I'm very excited. but so
00:32:02
red23
Oh, I'm going to check and see if my library has it. I've read lots of your recommendations so far.
00:32:07
Jen
Oh, I'm so kind.
00:32:07
El Platypo
Ooh, nice.
00:32:09
Jen
I would say if you're going to watch it and start, just though it's it's the second in the that um series of Star Trek movies.
00:32:13
red23
Okay.
00:32:14
Jen
so So you'd have to watch the other movie first. I can't remember the name of the first one.
00:32:19
red23
Yes.
00:32:19
Jen
I think it's just called Star Trek.
00:32:20
red23
Okay.
00:32:21
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:32:21
red23
Is it because it's got that guy's face that annoys me anyway?
00:32:25
Jen
Oh, the main character.
00:32:26
red23
Yeah.
00:32:27
Jen
What's his name?
00:32:27
red23
But maybe I can get over it then.
00:32:28
El Platypo
not Not young Spock.
00:32:29
Jen
Chris? Chris something?
00:32:30
red23
You're Chris Pine.
00:32:32
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:32:32
Jen
Yeah. Oh, do you not like him? Oh, well, yeah, he's the main character.
00:32:34
red23
It's not like I don't like him. that's I mean, this is worse. I don't like his face.
00:32:37
El Platypo
Oh
00:32:38
Jen
Oh no, he's, he's kidding it.
00:32:41
red23
I like the spot guy, I think.
00:32:41
Jen
but Do you know what though, you have if you if you don't want to watch that full movie, just watch the opening scene.
00:32:42
red23
um
00:32:43
El Platypo
yeah.
00:32:47
Jen
Because I i just think it's like one of the best opening scenes to a movie. like it yeah It's like watching a movie in 10 minutes.
00:32:52
red23
Okay.
00:32:53
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:32:55
red23
Oh, Okay.
00:32:55
Jen
It's that dramatic.
00:32:56
El Platypo
Yeah. it's It's incredible. um I feel that we should probably stop slacing all of the...
00:33:01
red23
Yeah, sorry, Jamie.
00:33:02
Jen
Yes.
Leadership Styles and Decision-Making
00:33:04
El Platypo
No, no, no, I'm i'm well up for some digressions. It's you guys who want to be in bed before five in the morning. As people now know, I'm uncomfortable driving from four in the morning until five in the morning the very next day. um Now, I was just going to say, I should probably move from there on, because apparently we have to move the conversation on all of these things.
00:33:24
El Platypo
and but I was just going to say given the group we have and how badly this gets shown up I was quite surprised that no one else sort of seemed to notice the fact that in a number of key negotiations where I think it's Marge Culler who ran off with Seska is involved in a number of occasions his ego and sexism destroys what would have been a winning hand and a winning position for him. So for instance, he had a potential alliance with Voyager at his grasp, but he lost it because of the fact that he insisted on having the last word rather than having Janeway take the last word and insist on an exchange of crew members as hostages.
00:34:08
El Platypo
um And then when he was pushed on why he did this by Seska, he says he couldn't let terms be dictated to him by a woman. And then Seska says that this blind spot of his will be the end of him.
00:34:24
El Platypo
He turns on her and then she again shows that she's clearly the most confident person in the entire Marge Raitt leadership group because she just wraps him around her finger immediately and gets him to start believing that he can once again ah win everything with just turning up to a conference that he was being grumpy about turning up to.
00:34:28
red23
so
00:34:43
El Platypo
um it's It's quite amusing. I was wondering your thoughts on Marge Culler and his blind spots and how they will see him turfed up
00:34:54
red23
Jenny, do you want to go?
00:34:55
Jen
No, you go first, Red.
00:34:57
red23
Um, oh yeah, you can pet the kittens. Well, but yes, no, I...
00:35:00
El Platypo
Black Cat was just turned up on Jenny's desk, it's adorable.
00:35:02
red23
Um, yes, I mean, the Ma- the, uh, Kezon are, well, well, famous for being sexist. But, um, yes, he really, as you point out, I don't think I even realised at the time, but that was a good deal, he was being offered.
00:35:17
red23
So he really cut off his nose, his spine, his face, is that how you say it?
00:35:21
Jen
yeah
00:35:23
El Platypo
Yes, exactly so.
00:35:23
red23
But, but I did really love, i did that was one of my points.
00:35:25
El Platypo
yeah
00:35:28
red23
I loved, well, obviously Jamie doesn't take it, so that goes without saying, but Jamie doesn't take his nonsense.
00:35:33
El Platypo
Okay.
00:35:36
red23
But um I did like 2Vox non-verbal, I'll just wait until you settle down because there's a lot of noise and I won't have to cut it out.
00:35:42
Jen
There's a lot of background noise Jamie.
00:35:42
El Platypo
Sorry.
00:35:45
Jen
I didn't want to interrupt Red, but I was picking on the safe. There's quite a lot of background noise.
00:35:49
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:35:49
red23
um Oh yes, ah so as Janeway, well, is kind of storming out, I can't remember, but ah the Marge, Marge Carla, whatever his name is, is like talk is like turns to Tuvok and he's like, talk to her, tell her to be reasonable.
00:36:03
red23
And Tuvok just stands up and looks at at him as if he's like the tiniest little gnat on the face of the planet.
00:36:04
El Platypo
Insta.
00:36:09
red23
Like you'd like you just don't get this, like, I mean, I just liked his non-purple reaction there.
00:36:12
El Platypo
this this is
00:36:13
Jen
Yeah, I completely agree. I really like that. too and And he doesn't, um what I like is that he literally does nothing. He he sits there, like, um you know, he doesn't try to defend her. He doesn't jump in. He doesn't take over or need to say anything on the end of what she's already said. You know, he's, he is, you know, he's almost proving the point, you know, that in theory in Star Trek world that it doesn't matter whether you're a man or woman you could be a subordinate or you know the leadership team regardless of um sex um by sitting there and saying that she is the captain so I am her subordinate so she she's spoken I'm not I have nothing to add to that.
00:36:48
El Platypo
Okay. Yes.
00:37:00
red23
Yeah, it's like his reaction almost said, like, you just don't get it, like, to to the cart, like, oh, the march is just like, you know, operating from so much different viewpoints. Wow.
00:37:13
El Platypo
Agreed. Yeah, that was, broadly speaking, why I wanted to sort of ask it because you are a group of people who, to me, often keep your illustration narrow and in many in many respects and helped me see my privileged blind spots in a number of ways. and I was sort of a little bit surprised that no one thought to mention that, possibly out of respect for my yeah delicate male feelings, but I really loved that point and I loved Tuvok's withering scorn.
00:37:45
red23
Yes, Jenny.
00:37:48
Jen
No, I was just gonna, Jamie, the fact that you said, I was surprised neither of you touched upon that point. I actually thought about it.
00:37:58
El Platypo
ah so
00:37:59
Jen
And then I thought, do you know what, I'm sure I talk far too much about feminist related things in Star Trek, so I'm just not gonna cover that one this time.
00:38:07
El Platypo
Yeah,
00:38:09
red23
Oh, I don't think anyone would make that accusation.
00:38:13
El Platypo
gosh.
00:38:13
red23
And even if you did, that would be okay because, I mean, Star Trek stands as the kind of umbrella to current times.
00:38:19
El Platypo
I
00:38:23
Jen
Oh.
00:38:24
El Platypo
agree.
00:38:24
red23
and So don't ever hold back, Jenny.
00:38:29
El Platypo
Yeah, that makes sense. So, I think, Red, the ball falls to you next.
00:38:35
red23
Okay, so... Yeah, I probably don't have too much more to say, but I did like, again, this goes back back to the first scene, actually, with Jamie that you raised, the between Jamie and Tupac, where she's grappling with us, does she make a deal?
00:38:49
red23
Doesn't want to, and he does make a good argument.
00:38:49
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:38:52
red23
um But before, he says something like, yes, we should stand by our principles, and then she says something like, I hear her how am I coming? And then he, I guess, goes into the, it kind of indicates that he might have a different point of view, and she uses the phrase,
00:38:59
El Platypo
hmm
00:39:06
red23
help me understand that. Which I feel like for me is a very helpful phrase that I need to use more often instead of jumping up and telling people that they're stupid.
00:39:09
El Platypo
hmm
00:39:11
Jen
no Yeah, sorry.
00:39:15
El Platypo
hmm
00:39:17
red23
Or at least in my mind, jumping up and telling people they're stupid.
00:39:20
El Platypo
hmm
00:39:21
red23
Or it's even like a phrase that could use at work because I've never really... I guess someone says something really dumb. I mean, but that I think is really dumb, that I worry that if my question is gonna...
00:39:32
red23
I'm also worried about how my question will make them look in a sense. But this phrase helped me understand that.
00:39:38
red23
I like it. It's very neutral.
00:39:38
El Platypo
That's a good one.
00:39:39
Jen
Yeah. I completely know what you're way rather than I read and I need to do the same. help Help me to understand that. It's hard to question something. um
00:39:49
red23
Without coming off us.
00:39:51
Jen
Yeah, like interrogative and aggressive and putting them in an awkward position.
00:39:51
El Platypo
yeah
00:39:56
Jen
But on the other hand, I don't know, sometimes it feels important not to just sit quietly and not say anything.
00:40:03
red23
Yes!
00:40:03
Jen
Do you know what I mean?
00:40:04
red23
And even like...
00:40:04
El Platypo
Help me understand that.
00:40:04
Jen
but
00:40:05
El Platypo
if Sorry.
00:40:07
red23
I was reading a post because this happened to me. I would i often question, question, and sometimes I used to think I was entertaining people and afterwards people would be like, oh, thank you for all those questions. So even though it can like feel uncomfortable that people don't want it actually at the end of the day, if it's if it's like you know if it actually changes of or raises something important or makes people realize they haven't thought about something or whatever.
00:40:21
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:40:33
red23
But just in the moment, sometimes I'm just like, I wish I had had been a way of questioning. So I like this phrase that she used.
00:40:40
Jen
Yep.
00:40:40
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:40:41
Jen
I think tone is important with it as well.
00:40:43
red23
Oh yeah, but we are women, so we only have a friendly tone.
00:40:45
El Platypo
it could It could be quite.
00:40:47
red23
Well.
00:40:49
Jen
Oh no, I have a...
00:40:49
El Platypo
but
00:40:52
Jen
I have an evil tone.
00:40:53
red23
Do you?
00:40:55
Jen
No, I don't know.
00:40:56
red23
I doubt it. I felt like I'd use my evil tone thell the other day, but on Teams. um because someone messaged me while I was on a holiday. So I didn't even bother with it. Oh, good question.
00:41:06
red23
Let me quit. I was just like, those people are idiots. Why are you bothering with?
00:41:09
Jen
Yeah.
00:41:09
red23
Well, actually I didn't say that at all. I didn't say that at all. I was just like, those people have been notified. They got two belts of communication. They should go speak to someone else. Anyway, it was just like, why are you bothering me?
00:41:21
red23
I'm not having that.
00:41:22
Jen
I think our evil tone might be quite similar, Ed. When I say evil, what I mean is accidentally blunt.
00:41:27
red23
Just, yes, just leaving out all the fluff.
00:41:30
Jen
Yes, when i'm when I'm sort of rushed or or stressed, and then and then immediately after I said something, I realized, oh bugger, I forgot to do all the niceties.
00:41:31
red23
but
00:41:39
Jen
It probably came off quite angry, and I'm not at all, whoops.
00:41:43
El Platypo
Directly direct is a good way of pushing it, I think.
00:41:47
red23
Well, now that I've actually had a little bit of experience with people who do come off across over kind of across like angry on teams, I think we're probably safe, but we were discussing another person at work, and they they went in person, their communication is quite good.
00:42:02
red23
But on teams, they'll be like, why hasn't this been done? And obviously, the only way you can read that is, why hasn't this been done? Not why hasn't this been done, or whatever.
00:42:08
El Platypo
yeah i mean i i really struggle with people who say they can't read body language on teams because the difference between on teams and in person to talk to your point red is is really oh i see okay i take that back yeah because i was going to say i do come across people that who are totally nice in person but then on teams calls way more direct than you imagine and it's like
00:42:11
Jen
but Yeah.
00:42:12
red23
and
00:42:18
red23
Oh, sorry, I meant like in a chat, like not in a chat. So like typed messages. Sorry. Yeah.
00:42:37
El Platypo
How can you not read the body language and the faces and everything that is being said?
00:42:42
Jen
What about, what about if they're doing that thing?
00:42:42
red23
That's true. That's true.
00:42:44
El Platypo
Sorry, I did interrupt you. Thank you, pardon.
00:42:48
Jen
I did too, my apologies.
00:42:50
red23
Jenny, what did you say?
00:42:52
Jen
Oh, I was just going to say, um but I'm just introducing more and more teams work with this topic, but um the annoying, not annoying,
Off-topic: Workplace Communication
00:43:00
Jen
some, some of these meeting tools where you you're presenting and when you present it cuts out the video of everyone you're presenting to you have no idea how they're responding to the things you're saying yeah and especially if they've all gone on mute and you know you might make a you know a bad joke or something and then you just don't know if anyone was smiling or um laughing with mute on or anything oh me too i i it's like nervous after though i don't you know
00:43:07
red23
Yes, I know. I find that very annoying.
00:43:16
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:43:22
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:43:22
red23
but well luckily i laugh at my own jokes um the
00:43:28
El Platypo
assistance
00:43:28
red23
um but
00:43:32
red23
thats
00:43:35
red23
ah
00:43:35
El Platypo
ah I mean, i I once just absolutely got ruined at the start of COVID. Like, we had an entire project called it was the end and everyone was completely, completely exhausted.
00:43:47
El Platypo
And, you know, it was just going into lockdown and we've done nothing that amazing with talk about, you know, how are we going to assure this project in spite of COVID-19.
00:43:49
red23
Well, well, luckily I laugh at my own jokes.
00:43:56
El Platypo
And so I said, so does anyone else have um have anything else that you know we think we should discuss?
00:43:57
Jen
See, I just did it.
00:44:03
El Platypo
And I piped up with, I feel like we could have given more time to mitigation the impacts of COVID-19 on delivery of this project. And this woman just looked at me in silence and I said, that once used to cost for humour in the insides of my head.
00:44:11
Jen
you
00:44:20
El Platypo
It was like the most awkward moment imaginable. I was like I find that pretty funny both at the time and in retrospect but this this individual had an absolute sense of humor failure and ah yeah ah yeah it was it was bad I have no idea um probably yeah
00:44:32
red23
Oh dear.
00:44:36
red23
Wow, when you said COVID-19, that means COVID was five years ago?
00:44:44
Jen
Oh my goodness.
00:44:45
red23
That's insane! I've done nothing with my life! Okay, let's carry on with this podcast and then I can go draw my sorrows.
00:44:49
El Platypo
ah mr I've done nothing with my life. You've set up a podcast that was well into its second series.
00:44:55
red23
Yes, I do take some sorrows from that and we have some downloads every week, so there we go.
00:45:00
El Platypo
So, you know, our life has been worth doing, you know, plus Henry metals, all that stuff.
00:45:04
Jen
i And it's worth me creating those fake profiles and downloading noding a few of them.
00:45:07
El Platypo
Um, what the hell?
00:45:12
Jen
I'm joking.
00:45:13
El Platypo
who's fake for
00:45:14
red23
but Thank you, Jenny.
00:45:14
El Platypo
ah
00:45:14
red23
Honestly, from the bottom of my heart, thank you, because without the Starlords, I am nothing. who
00:45:20
Jen
To be clear, that was a joke. I'm not doing that right.
00:45:23
red23
I know, it because I
00:45:23
Jen
I'm sure we have listeners.
00:45:23
El Platypo
No, she outsources it to me.
00:45:27
red23
just can't see any of us doing that because none of us could be bothered. um
00:45:31
Jen
This is very true.
00:45:33
El Platypo
Oh, I dunno. Right, Jenny, is it to you or is it to me?
00:45:41
Jen
I think I started first, didn't I?
00:45:43
El Platypo
Yeah, and red spoke last, so it's you.
00:45:43
Jen
Started first.
00:45:46
Jen
Cool. Well, I just have one last thought on this episode. um like It might fit better into themes, but I just found the whole i guess theme of like the responsibility of leadership um quite interesting.
Janeway's Leadership Responsibility
00:46:02
Jen
um I really enjoyed the scene where Bolana was standing up for Janeway's captaincy and saying, you know,
00:46:03
El Platypo
Hmm. Yes.
00:46:08
Jen
you have no idea the decision she has to make every day, you're just just this rung, you're just this cog in the great machine, and she's the head of the machine.
00:46:14
El Platypo
yes
00:46:16
Jen
And and i I'm sure that is very true to a certain extent when you when you're when you're at the top and you're the leader and you understand more than potentially those in in the lower rungs do.
00:46:16
El Platypo
Yes. Hmm.
00:46:28
Jen
um And there's there's a moment where Jamie says earlier about how she can't be captained by consensus. and that's sort of true to an extent as well, you know, she can't run every decision by, and she can't explain because the amount of time it would take not just to to have a consensus on everything, but also to explain all the details of everything that was going on and then have some kind of referendum, I don't know.
00:46:37
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:46:50
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:46:52
Jen
Yeah, but then, I mean, there's also this um difficulty in that,
00:46:52
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:46:59
Jen
the problem is that that attitude and totality can sort of pave the way for like total abuse of power and I don't know how do you avoid that and there's this like transparency and in in leadership that is is required as well but I think Jamie does tend to achieve that when she she's asking to hear.
00:47:08
El Platypo
What? I think...
00:47:17
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:47:18
Jen
What's his name? Hogan's? Hogan's I guess opinion on whether they they should share technology and and then she's listening to what he says and then she's
00:47:21
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:47:27
Jen
But then she's also saying, um you know, she's not explaining her decision. So I guess it just, I don't really have one way or the other opinion on it. I just thought it was an interesting like exploration of that.
00:47:39
El Platypo
It's a dichotomy, isn't it? Because she wants to be an open leader, but in order to lead effectively operationally, she needs to be able to take decisions without explaining herself and the chain of command to work, which is a pretty common thing.
00:47:52
El Platypo
ah e Did you guys ever do anything like combine cadet faults or something like that?
00:47:57
red23
Oh no. I wasn't even a...
00:47:58
El Platypo
It's good.
00:47:59
red23
what's it called? A bunny. No, it wasn't called.
00:48:01
El Platypo
A bunny! Oh, mr there is this South African equivalent of the brownies, the bunnies?
00:48:02
red23
Not ah of bunny, what they're called!
00:48:02
Jen
Brownie?
00:48:06
red23
Brownie, brownie, brownie. I wanted to be a brownie.
00:48:07
El Platypo
I'd love it if you'd been a bunny.
00:48:08
Jen
I was a brownie!
00:48:09
red23
Oh, I'm jealous.
00:48:10
El Platypo
one
00:48:10
red23
All I wanted was to be a brownie. That's what I should want to be.
00:48:13
El Platypo
Well, the main thing that they sort of teach...
00:48:15
Jen
well
00:48:18
El Platypo
So the first time that you can get out of a course, or at least I did it, what they did was they gave you a series of sort of course exercises to do.
00:48:28
El Platypo
And first of all, they make you do it with all of you weighing in and coming up with stuff. And the second time with one person just telling folk what to do. And the immediate thing that they teach you is decision-making works quicker operationally if it's one person saying, do this, this, this.
00:48:46
Jen
hmm
00:48:46
El Platypo
And that's sort of the point that January is sort of making. I find about, I can't count them by consensus. I have to, you know, make the decisions. But there's that balance that you have to also be able to explain decisions afterwards, even if you're not, you know, voting on everything, which are liked.
00:49:02
Jen
accountability
00:49:03
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:49:04
red23
Yeah, I think a bit that, well, I thought, I guess the thing that took, I don't know what the word is, made me have a thought. Well, that was really bad English and expression, but was, that struck me or made me wonder if this is, was the right approach is in that scene that you mentioned with Belona and the guy when he's like, we've hearing so many rumors, what's going on?
00:49:16
El Platypo
Struck you the things Hmm
00:49:28
red23
And I was like, I totally get the caught lead by consensus, but Maybe some more communication would have helped in this case. I don't know.
00:49:38
El Platypo
I mean, I would agree with you, but we're violating the one sacred principle of this podcast, our life, and all right-thinking people, that is, the leadership of Janeway shall not be challenged.
00:49:42
red23
A private directive.
00:49:50
El Platypo
You can't see it, but a cat underneath the table is so outraged it sunk its fangs to the nub in my achilles tendon.
00:49:50
Jen
so
00:49:55
Jen
Hmm. Hmm.
00:49:58
El Platypo
I am currently there, you can't see it, in agonising pain.
00:49:58
Jen
Oh!
00:50:02
red23
You're ready, you're holding up very well, Jamie.
00:50:05
El Platypo
I, you know, I'm so brave that people forget I'm suffering.
00:50:11
red23
But I mean, again, then I could argue back my own point, because this is how I don't get anywhere in life, is that they, everyone knows the principles of Starfleet, so why would they expect her to do anything else, in a sense? Like, that's the point of having those principles, is making the decision-making care. Like, oh yes, of course she's not gonna because sweet that's not something that we do. And we know that that's not something we do because of the risks that it introduces.
00:50:37
red23
um
00:50:37
Jen
I think it's a fine balance, isn't it, between not having to explain everything and not ruling in complete dictatorship and without any kind of transparency or accountability or communication.
00:50:39
red23
sir
00:50:52
red23
Yes, and I would also say what does work well in this situation is she does really trust her senior leadership team got on the call.
00:51:00
Jen
Sorry I should not have introduced that.
00:51:00
red23
ah So she does take all their perspective really on board. ah They represent different kind of, sometimes different, like other ship and that is why, I mean, Chakotay and Chivok didn't manage her to consider an alliance, so.
00:51:18
El Platypo
what do you What do you call the senior leadership team on a ship, Navy?
00:51:25
red23
I can't believe I don't know this because
00:51:29
Jen
a
00:51:30
red23
They do have a term, I'm sure.
00:51:32
El Platypo
I'm sure they have, yeah.
00:51:32
Jen
I wonder if the you know three people who listen to this, when something like this happens, they're like shouting, oh my god, this is the answer, desperate to type into comments.
00:51:38
El Platypo
and They're like, what absolute, it how stupid are these people?
00:51:42
red23
ah Okay, fine.
00:51:44
El Platypo
Yeah. Jesus, I can't remember the life of me.
00:51:51
El Platypo
I can, I can sense someone googling.
00:51:51
red23
We've gone quiet because we're all googling.
00:51:52
Jen
Type, type, type.
00:51:53
El Platypo
Yeah. No, I've gone quiet because the cat's wiggling its fangs.
00:51:57
red23
but Senior staff. or senior offices, senior offices.
00:51:59
El Platypo
Hmm. Oh yeah.
00:52:01
Jen
Yeah, offices.
00:52:02
red23
I think it's really, can't believe. You know, when you when you put on the spot, I mean, if you put me on the spot, ask me my own name, I'll forget because.
00:52:13
El Platypo
Moi is the same. Who's the cat that's currently in front of me? She forgets her own name when I say it and then when Jenny says it. Yes, I remember my name.
00:52:21
red23
Jamie, suddenly with that cat on your lap and there was an unchanged in lighting or something, you looked like you're posing for a photo in like a mall photo. Like, you know, that was an 80s, 90s style back rod as you pose with like a- I know you just have a white wall behind you, but something about the lighting, um, suddenly.
00:52:34
El Platypo
Oh wow.
00:52:39
El Platypo
it's got never so slightly darker that's the only thing um so now i just look like i look like someone who's one of those 80s photos of models where they just grease them with lots and lots of baby oil but yeah right it's probably it's probably on to me um so i think my last point um
00:52:43
red23
And holding a prop. Oh, I can't-
00:52:45
Jen
Bye.
00:52:53
red23
Ah.
00:52:57
red23
Well, Jana, you're great. Oh, sorry for that. No?
00:53:08
El Platypo
I think the thing that sort of got to me, the last thing I noticed was Seska, is she carrying Chikoshie's baby at this point in time? Or is she carrying Marge Colour's baby? Because she claims to Chikoshie at the end of an episode a while ago that she is carrying his baby, but tells Marge Colour it's his. um Which is a bit of a ticking time bomb, one imagines, in terms of Really, am I the father when it comes out and looks like Shikote and not, say, a caisson?
00:53:43
red23
Well, very good question, Jamie, because we don't know yet, right, Jenny? And is she just saying whatever the person needs to hear, once doesn't want to hear, so she could get there to do something for her?
00:53:53
El Platypo
this
00:53:56
Jen
yeah I was trying to remember as Jamie spoke I think that is where we are like so I think I remember the first time watching this episode being really confused about that and then like a later episodes you know oh okay so she's um I can't remember if like she doesn't well no she does but it's much okay
00:53:56
El Platypo
since
00:54:14
El Platypo
Well, she knows who's it is. Don't tell me who's it is. I don't want to know who's it is. I've got to have some mystery. Otherwise I go into the.
00:54:21
Jen
I forget you haven't watched it all a million times like me in red
00:54:23
El Platypo
Yeah, exactly. Gosh, you guys. um Yeah, so that was.
00:54:29
red23
but
00:54:30
El Platypo
Oh, sorry. Go for it.
00:54:31
red23
But yes, because as um I mean, there was a whole funny scene in the but brief, I don't know if I've forgotten all the terms now, briefing room or the staff room, where Harry Kim is like, well, why don't we just call Seska?
00:54:42
El Platypo
Oh yeah, where they decide they're gonna...
00:54:46
red23
And then everyone's like, hey, that's a great idea. um And then then I suddenly remembered, wait, and then Chakoti's like, okay, fine.
00:54:49
Jen
Thank
00:54:54
red23
I'll get in touch with her." And I was like, you're the last person who should get in touch with her.
00:54:57
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:54:59
red23
And Jamie wanted us to get in touch with her.
00:55:01
El Platypo
Yeah, although I do love Janeway.
00:55:06
El Platypo
don't know, I just sort of... I feel like throughout this episode Janeway is gently reinforcing my view is right and yours is wrong to Jacote throughout every time something goes wrong with the idea of an alliance and in this instance when he's objecting to it being Cesca Day contact, Janeway sort of says, you can't complain if you want to get mucky with the cazon if we get a bit dirty on the way there.
00:55:11
Jen
you.
00:55:33
red23
Yes, sometimes you can yeah take it out on the person who suggested the idea.
00:55:35
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:55:40
El Platypo
Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:41
Jen
Bye.
00:55:41
El Platypo
And now I know that you've actually sort of slotted one of your things in there with, uh, why don't we just call Cesca red, but did you have any others you wanted to tell us? Cause I think we, we sort of disappoint, not disappointed, exhausted, uh, mine and Jenny's comments, but you as ever are keeping us on the straight and narrow with volumes of thoughts on this episode.
00:56:04
red23
Oh no, I only had one more very minor one. Um, but I did really like, well, I didn't like the trade, but I liked their beaches. I thought the, um, costume department or that whatever did a really good job with that guy.
00:56:14
El Platypo
Oh, interesting.
00:56:20
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:56:20
red23
Um, no, I thought he looked, I mean, that's very human, but the eye around the eyes, the nose.
00:56:25
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:56:26
red23
Um, I thought that was pretty cool.
00:56:27
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:56:29
El Platypo
Yeah, and I also say I love the fact he came across to me as like wholesome Midwest American senator.
00:56:37
red23
Yes, I mean, how did we feel?
00:56:37
El Platypo
Bob Waltz title.
00:56:39
red23
I mean, how did we feel about the twist when it's him that's trying to wipe it right out?
00:56:44
El Platypo
Oh, that was weird, wasn't it? It was like, wow. Your primary school teacher turns out to be a serial killer.
00:56:48
Jen
I did think... Yeah, I think he did come across a little bit.
00:56:50
red23
Yeah.
00:56:53
Jen
dodgy. I didn't really fully trust him.
00:56:54
El Platypo
You just can't solve them?
00:56:58
Jen
and Well, i think I guess he played it ah we played it that way, so it didn't feel like a total shock.
00:57:03
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:57:05
red23
Also, he he used one of the weakest arguments, I think, about if you try categorizing a whole group of people as something, you'll never, like, convince me, because I just, you know, can't...
00:57:06
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:57:17
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:57:17
red23
which he did about the K-zone.
00:57:19
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:57:19
Jen
Hmm.
00:57:20
red23
But then it turned out he was the, like, war-mongering person, like, okay, maybe... Yeah, i think anyway, was he fed that stereotype that he was trying to portray them as.
00:57:30
Jen
Ah.
00:57:31
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:57:32
red23
Yeah.
00:57:32
El Platypo
Yeah, I agreed. Fascinating. Right. Is it time to move on?
00:57:36
red23
And he really felt like he was in the right. Sorry, not a thing about it.
00:57:39
El Platypo
Oh, no, no, no, don't worry.
00:57:39
red23
Because he he was like, oh my gosh, you stopped me from like achieving this peace and blah, blah, blah.
00:57:40
El Platypo
He did. He did. I agree.
00:57:45
red23
It's like that would not have brought about peace. Like what planet are you living on?
00:57:49
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:57:50
Jen
Yes.
00:57:52
El Platypo
It would have renewed reprisals against the tribe and massive war amongst the Khazon.
00:58:00
red23
Also, what we know from that episode with Jokote and that young Kezon is that they're training up like new people all the time.
00:58:00
El Platypo
He says that...
00:58:05
red23
They'll just be someone willing to step in.
00:58:06
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:58:08
Jen
Yeah, there's like a second march for all of these tribes, aren't there?
00:58:10
red23
Yeah.
00:58:11
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:58:11
Jen
Who's gonna be thrilled?
00:58:12
El Platypo
That's it. Yeah. Promotion opportunity. Dead men's shoes, literally.
00:58:18
Jen
yeah
00:58:18
red23
I'm the leader now.
00:58:19
El Platypo
Yeah, I mean maybe that should be one of our themes, the opportunities for corporate advancement through mass murder of a senior leadership team.
00:58:19
red23
Yeah.
00:58:26
red23
Oh, god.
00:58:27
El Platypo
ah But i sense I sense that's not, as I look down the list, one of the themes we have. But right, talk me through your themes, my people.
00:58:38
red23
Jenny, go ahead.
00:58:39
Jen
Oh okay, my themes. felt them quite a lot. I ah felt like some somewhere in there there was this sort of altruism game theory kind of thoughts going on. um
00:59:01
Jen
just about what if what is the most effective survival strategy in this you know this awful Delta Quadrant where you've got a load of um ah load of species that already live there who are surviving through basically trying to be killed and to kill each other.
00:59:02
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:59:21
Jen
so And then you've got the Starfleet principles where they're trying to build an allegiance and and alliances and and just It just really reminded me of this, I don't know, it must have been like a first year new biology course or something, where they were were talking about the game theory. As I may remember, it was something about, um I mean, this was like 15 years old now, so probably there's been a lot more, I'm very out of date research, but it was to do with them running simulations of, you have this
00:59:55
Jen
uh this game where uh you've basically oh god i'm not going to be able to explain it this is too complicated is okay great i do have to explain it and it you know if anyone is listening like you to um yes that's the one um and ah in theory um jamie and crew are following the course that should win them survival um but
01:00:00
El Platypo
Prisoners don't know
01:00:02
red23
Yes, but I think we are familiar vaguely both of us.
01:00:03
El Platypo
Hm.
01:00:04
red23
Well, Jamie may be more, but yes, I know what you need, Jamie.
01:00:12
red23
yeah
01:00:12
El Platypo
Prisonist dilemma.
01:00:25
Jen
You know, I don't suppose that's always the case. And then just the whole sort of um her like rigidity and rules versus, you know, being a bit flexible and adapting to your viral environment and which strategy wins out.
Altruism vs. Survival in Leadership
01:00:37
Jen
um Yeah, that's what kind of stood out to me as themes.
01:00:41
El Platypo
Yeah, I mean in in many ways you you've pretty much preempted what I had as my theme, that idea of pragmatism against principle, and I was always, as we mentioned at the start, the argument that principle is impractical can be short-circuited, at least in this instance, because what was being touted as something which was an argument from practicality would actually, against following the rules of principle, i.e.
01:01:08
El Platypo
giving case on technology, would in fact have been practically impractical because it would have harmed the crew. But I don't think that resolves it on the long term.
01:01:20
El Platypo
Red, forgive me. I may have jumped in ahead of you. Did you have any themes you wanted to throw in?
01:01:22
red23
That's okay. Never trust anyone.
01:01:27
Jen
Okay.
01:01:29
El Platypo
And that's why we're paid actors, everyone. We don't actually know Fred. Okay.
01:01:34
red23
Well, they've got to know the cazon, so the cazon behaved as you would expect from the cazon. They didn't really know the trade, and so it took so quickly to try
01:01:42
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:01:47
El Platypo
Yeah.
01:01:48
red23
But I guess you know being for in ah in a situation where you need to make alliances, that's very difficult. But it's a little bit like Belanna. I think you can trust but verify.
01:01:56
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:01:58
red23
like She just took everything from that robot in the last episode at face value.
01:01:58
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:02:02
Jen
Mm.
01:02:05
El Platypo
that's look I feel contemplative about this one. It's not quite as bad as... I feel like in the last few episodes there have been a few where Star Trek has sort of done political themes and oppression and depressionion themes. And I feel more reflective about this one than I did with the poor prisoner who rescued or helps Janeway.
01:02:30
red23
Oh.
01:02:31
El Platypo
yeah
01:02:34
El Platypo
when she's trapped on that planet. Anyhow, is it is it time for Star Player? I think it might be.
01:02:41
red23
I guess so.
01:02:42
El Platypo
Yeah, team, where are we at? Where are we at?
01:02:46
Jen
I had actually decided mine before we were joined for once.
01:02:51
El Platypo
Ooh.
01:02:51
red23
Well then you have to lead the way.
01:02:53
El Platypo
Lead us, lead us, lead us.
01:02:56
Jen
um ah Well, i'm I'm surprised how often often this is happening, actually, because I really thought it would be every week Janeway.
01:03:03
red23
so Jenny, you don't have to explain every time you don't.
01:03:03
Jen
But I
01:03:06
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:03:07
Jen
do, I do.
01:03:08
red23
Oh, very good.
01:03:09
Jen
I'm going to do like two walks again, because I really enjoy his Never quote, we're not clever, they're wise, wise quotes.
01:03:18
red23
He has a fountain almost.
01:03:21
Jen
Yeah, and also his delivery, awesome.
01:03:23
red23
Yes.
01:03:23
Jen
They're so calming, that calm voice.
01:03:26
red23
I wonder if he has like a guided meditation.
01:03:30
Jen
Hmm.
01:03:30
red23
ah save they shit oh Well, anyway, I might look into that. Or maybe I could ask Chad GPT, oh no, his voice, license his voice, create guided meditations.
01:03:37
El Platypo
Come
01:03:40
red23
less one
01:03:41
Jen
and Do you know what it is? Well, I think, you know, people can come up with all kinds of like, but potentially reassuring little quotes and, you know, and what they what they called like, you know, yeah, like affirmations, or, you know, things that, you know, there's plenty more fish in the sea, or, you know, that kind of thing.
01:03:53
El Platypo
on.
01:04:00
red23
aphorisms or yeah.
01:04:07
El Platypo
Oh cliches.
01:04:07
Jen
um Yeah. gachess um But I think the reason I enjoy this so much is that um they are like calm and reassuring but they're also quite logical like they're not just like sort of meaningless um trying to make you feel better but they do have some sort of logic behind them as well so they're even more reassuring.
01:04:31
red23
Yes, and he's not like, um I mean, this is Star Trek, but it's like he's not saying them to make you feel better. He's saying them because he's put the thought into the thing.
01:04:41
red23
But the logical, I mean, it is sometimes to make people feel better. and I'll take that back. But he's not just repeating stuff. He's like, it's because I think that shows in the delivery because I think you're right.
01:04:52
Jen
Yeah.
01:04:52
red23
And that's actually just very good acting from Tim Russ because he could just be like a cliche of a character but it's just so good.
01:04:57
Jen
Hmm.
01:04:58
El Platypo
Hmm.
01:05:02
red23
The lines are good, the acting is good.
01:05:04
El Platypo
Nice.
01:05:07
red23
It comes across as like, yeah, sincere and wise.
01:05:08
Jen
Hmm.
01:05:13
El Platypo
Rent, to you too, or shall I?
01:05:16
red23
Well, I'm gonna go first because I feel like I might be stealing Jamie's because I'm gonna go for the controversial choice. I'm gonna go for Marge Carla
01:05:26
Jen
oh
01:05:27
El Platypo
Oh wow.
01:05:28
red23
Because he was the only one who was right about not trusting that guy from the train.
01:05:33
El Platypo
c
01:05:35
red23
Whether his reasons for being right are right, I'm not sure, but he was like, I don't trust this guy and he had the...
01:05:43
El Platypo
Sexism powers us through danger. That's the lesson here, folks.
01:05:48
Jen
Yeah, we'll just ignore the fact that he thinks that no women can be trusted.
01:05:52
red23
Well, yes, I mean, but I'm not saying he's my...
01:05:53
El Platypo
Wise man. Lots to be learned. Tribal teachings of the K'zon. Deep native wisdom.
01:06:01
red23
I'm not endorsing his point of view, I'm just nominating him as the star player because so I couldn't really think of anyone else.
01:06:02
El Platypo
don
01:06:06
Jen
I know, I was just waiting.
01:06:09
El Platypo
Well, I would like to nominate Tuvok for one moment and one moment, only at the moment with room contempt.
01:06:19
red23
Very good.
01:06:19
El Platypo
Towards him, star player.
01:06:19
red23
i'm very Yes, I'm very happy that my love of Tuvok is spreading.
01:06:21
El Platypo
To be clear.
01:06:27
Jen
one
01:06:28
El Platypo
I mean, one swallow maketh not a summer.
01:06:31
Jen
I had no idea.
01:06:31
red23
You're just not... What was that, Jenny?
01:06:35
Jen
I had no idea. It's really drew attention to the fact he has a lot of great lines and great delivery as well, which I just, you know, in my love of Janeway as a character, I clearly hadn't realised.
01:06:41
red23
Yeah.
01:06:49
red23
He was just...
01:06:50
El Platypo
So, yeah. I think, does that draw us to a close on alliances?
01:06:56
red23
It does. It does indeed.
01:06:58
El Platypo
Is it that time when we all sort of have an impromptu one-person dance party in front of our screens when red cues the music?
01:06:59
red23
does indeed.
01:07:05
red23
It is.
01:07:05
Jen
I can't. I've got a kitten on my lap. I have to stay still.
01:07:09
El Platypo
Do big fish little fish put them in the box?
01:07:20
red23
I'm glad
01:07:21
El Platypo
I mean, I look like a zombie doing this, and it's slicing.
01:07:24
red23
no one will ever see this, just hear us.
01:07:29
El Platypo
Heartbeats.
01:07:29
red23
but Okay, well, see you guys soon.
01:07:32
El Platypo
Ta-ra for now.
01:07:36
red23
Bye.