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We watch "Threshold" (S2 Ep.15)
9 Plays3 months ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Threshold”, possibly the most controversial episode of Voyager EVER. And spoiler alert, at least one of us LOVED it.
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at [email protected].
Theme music by Alain D
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Format
00:00:00
Jen
Oh, I don't have any anymore.
00:00:02
El Platypo
I have to have two cats with me.
00:00:02
red23
No more cats.
00:00:03
Jen
You left me to so come and find you.
00:00:06
El Platypo
yeah hey there
00:00:11
red23
Oh, kitties!
00:00:11
El Platypo
and Oh gosh, one of them seems to have cooked on the wrong way.
00:00:16
red23
but
00:00:20
El Platypo
I don't want to know.
00:00:23
red23
Okay. Oh, I gave that jingle a little bit of an extra long.
00:00:27
Jen
Yeah, go into the the beat section there.
00:00:30
red23
Yeah, must learn how to do a jingle properly one day.
00:00:30
El Platypo
yeah
00:00:30
Jen
Hello, hello.
00:00:33
El Platypo
yeah do but Do people hear the kitty chat? Or is that getting edited out?
00:00:36
red23
No, that's in the trick. This podcast famously to the eight listeners, no editing, no ads.
00:00:43
El Platypo
Wait, do we now know it's eight listeners?
00:00:45
red23
I don't know.
00:00:45
El Platypo
Do we know that for sure?
00:00:46
Jen
I mean, I just, I just assumed that seems a bit ah ambitious red.
00:00:46
red23
I'm just.
00:00:46
El Platypo
What's the data behind that? I need metrics. I don't believe it.
00:00:50
Jen
I mean, eight. I mean, come on.
00:00:51
El Platypo
That seems like a lot, man. Dude, come on.
00:00:53
red23
Well, when I released it,
00:00:53
El Platypo
Let's not get delusions of grandeur.
00:00:56
red23
When I release a new episode, there are at least eight downloads automatically. So I guess maybe that means eight people have subscribed? I don't know.
00:01:02
El Platypo
Okay. I mean, in other news, the the cats that were disturbing my in-podcast-focused are both now roosting on my work laptop immediately next to my podcast laptop.
00:01:03
Jen
oh exciting stuff roosting are they gonna be laying eggs anytime soon i just i just feel like this is in keeping with the the star trek episode we're about to just
00:01:17
red23
Oh, I'm jealous.
00:01:18
El Platypo
It appears to be able to situate two roosting cats, folded down, roosting.
00:01:27
El Platypo
Why, I don't know Jenny.
00:01:31
red23
I want to say this is a huge target and then I was like, actually, it's not so much.
00:01:32
El Platypo
well yes yes it is well yes and you know hope if i don't really want them to lay eggs together because that's a bit weird given their siblings but um yes and
00:01:44
Jen
Oh, that won't stop the cast. Anyway, on that note.
'Star Trek: Voyager' Season 2, Episode 15 - 'Threshold'
00:01:48
El Platypo
yes would you would you like to moderate us rather than just let us start off bickering the way that we always do
00:01:48
Jen
i'm
00:01:53
Jen
Well, we are talking about season two, episode 15, the infamous threshold.
00:02:00
El Platypo
The infamous threshold.
00:02:01
Jen
Yeah, well, apparently, and I think we'll find that out.
00:02:03
El Platypo
Is it infamous?
00:02:04
red23
So famous. So famous.
00:02:05
Jen
Yeah, look when we get to the ah the cool things, um I think there's some interesting stuff in there.
00:02:06
El Platypo
Aww.
00:02:11
El Platypo
Interesting.
00:02:12
Jen
So I won't ruin that though.
00:02:13
El Platypo
saying
00:02:14
Jen
So, we're going first to the one minute salary. Are you ready, Jay?
00:02:18
El Platypo
ah Yeah, and my one minute summary would be that after yet another disastrous escapade triggered by Neelix intervention, in this case, telling the experienced transwarp engine engineers how to do transwarp engineering,
00:02:34
El Platypo
ah The intrepid crew of Star Trek Voyager are set on another improbable set of shenanigans, as one of them breaks the warp ten barrier and evolves into a higher state of being, only to go rogue and kidnap the captain with him.
00:02:53
red23
Very good Jamie. Now that noise that those cats are making as cute as they are is gonna annoy one of our egg listeners.
00:02:55
Jen
Very nice.
00:03:00
red23
ah
00:03:01
Jen
We're going to lose a huge percentage of our audience.
00:03:03
El Platypo
That's one listener to two cats. I will keep the cats.
00:03:06
red23
ah
00:03:06
El Platypo
Okay.
00:03:07
Jen
ah I don't believe it was.
00:03:07
red23
Or I don't think walking on the biscuits or something but yeah.
00:03:12
Jen
I think it might have been Jamie making the noises.
00:03:15
red23
Well now he has someone to blame.
00:03:16
Jen
this
00:03:17
El Platypo
they were They were biscuit walking. I'm sorry. Hang on. I forgot the kitty laser. I'll go after it soon. There we go.
00:03:24
red23
but
00:03:25
Jen
Okay, so one cool thing. I think maybe Reggie might put this in.
00:03:31
red23
Yes.
Critiques and Praises of 'Threshold'
00:03:33
red23
Well, first of all, Jamie, just for, you know, as the more Star Trek community and based on your comments you said earlier, this was a huge, controversial episode and apparently makes many of the top 10, top five, top one worst episodes lists of all time. um But actually, this episode won an Emmy for most outstanding makeup.
00:03:58
red23
And apparently it was against Deep Space Nine, and it still won.
00:03:58
Jen
Oh.
00:04:01
red23
So somehow it is Emmy award-winning. But I just...
00:04:05
El Platypo
Hang on, what from Deep Space Nine is notable for amazing makeup?
00:04:09
red23
I think that episode is called The Visitor, but I just haven't looked it up. I can't remember. I couldn't say. But when i when I saw that, I was like, what? Because I only remembered his like initial makeup.
00:04:20
red23
But then over the course of the episode, I'm like, okay, these makeup people did a good job. Um, but I also just want to, there's a lot of like reviews and comments about this episode online, but I just wanted to read one that I thought that was quite funny.
00:04:35
red23
Um, it is a bit cruel.
00:04:35
El Platypo
Wait, is it cruel? Please don't miss cruel.
00:04:39
red23
It's on a website called Jamis reviews or something, but this is a comment posted under the very long review. But this person commented, the German reviewer Thomas Hall once wrote threshold could have been one of the best episodes of the second season.
00:04:53
red23
If yes. yes If Tom Paris would have died, which I was mad at.
00:04:57
Jen
yeah
00:05:00
El Platypo
wow
00:05:01
red23
Yeah, so...
00:05:02
Jen
I feel like I have some follow-up questions to
Scientific Inaccuracies in 'Threshold'
00:05:05
Jen
that review. I mean...
00:05:05
El Platypo
I have a thousand questions. Like, if he died, how do you how do you reconcile the whole, oh, it's it's funny that, you know, he he's turned into the phage from season one.
00:05:18
red23
I mean, there's so many funny comments, but that one stood out to be the most. But yeah, those are my...
00:05:23
Jen
but What is it did you Did you get a sense read from reading the reviews? Like, what is it about it that is makes it the most hated?
00:05:31
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:05:33
red23
Well, some people were upset that it wasn't an accurate reflection on how long evolution takes.
00:05:38
El Platypo
yeah oh man i
00:05:38
red23
I guess
00:05:39
Jen
It is sci-fi, I mean...
00:05:43
red23
it's really the ending, perhaps the final kind of few minutes with the baby salamanders and the highly improbable nature of it.
00:05:52
El Platypo
i mean that yeah yeah and it's such a result so neatly like and then we're all back to normal a little bit like his face fucking melted
00:05:53
Jen
no
00:05:58
red23
I'm not, but yeah, I hope just,
00:06:06
El Platypo
they had They didn't just have a kid, they had kids, and those kids were fucking lizards. how How is this all like, oh yeah, and now your kids are going off to be lizards in the jungle and you're not going to do anything about it, and it's fine.
00:06:19
El Platypo
I think i know I sound a little bit like Ricky Gervais from The Office as
Character Analysis: Neelix as a Catalyst
00:06:23
El Platypo
I say that, but I cry stitch up.
00:06:24
red23
oh
00:06:30
red23
Well, yes, for some reason it's very controversial
00:06:30
Jen
ah feel
00:06:33
red23
And yeah, I wish I'd read some more of the comments, but um yeah.
00:06:37
Jen
I feel like Jamie is leading us well into initial reactions because it it sounds like you heard some strong initial reactions.
00:06:37
El Platypo
so
00:06:40
red23
Yes.
00:06:45
Jen
I think you should go first.
00:06:47
El Platypo
Oh, right. Yes, you should go first read.
00:06:51
red23
She met you, Jamie.
00:06:52
Jen
I believe I said Jamie.
00:06:53
El Platypo
Oh, wow. Oh, gosh, sorry. I completely misread the body language there.
00:07:01
El Platypo
I mean, I actually, this is weird. So I have probably more problems with this episode as an episode than I have with any that we've reviewed, but I certainly did not find it the least enjoyable of the ones that we've reviewed. Like actually it it was so ridiculous. I started to enjoy it. Like,
00:07:21
El Platypo
I mean, leaving aside my habitual cry for more HR management and professional boundaries on the ships, violated by ah Janeway visiting Tom in his robe, um perhaps alluding to what was going to happen between them later.
00:07:39
red23
Ah!
00:07:39
El Platypo
It just makes me smile and laugh, to be honest, some of the pincer mix. It's so ridiculous that, oh, Neelix comes and solves how to go faster than the speed of warp where
00:07:47
Jen
Thank
00:07:51
El Platypo
you know, just a little bit of time as a second ship engineer's mate gives him the knowledge to see past Balana, Tom and Kim's, you know, problems.
00:07:51
Jen
you.
00:08:03
El Platypo
And so it goes from that ridiculousness and calling on my habitual, uh, narrative tool of Neelix screwing something up, which seems to be part of it.
00:08:14
El Platypo
And then it's a bit, Oh, and everyone's face is going to melt and apparently he's going to evolve into a higher state of being and then we're going to neatly resolve it up so we can continue with the wider series narrative arc in the last 30 seconds of the episode when they find and presumably taser to giant salamanders with no evidence that it's the captain and Tom Paris other than
00:08:38
Jen
you
00:08:40
El Platypo
apparently the fact it is, while the, you know, tadpoles, which they've had in this weird hyper-evolved future, sort of paddle off into the future, to a future glorious or otherwise unhelped by parental intervention. And apparently this is what we've all fallen into.
Tom Paris's Character Development and Challenges
00:08:59
El Platypo
So, I mean, yeah, there's lots of problems. But as I say, that's quite entertaining. You can't tell me that's not good TV.
00:09:07
Jen
I think a lot of people might disagree with that, but but um I think we should go next to Red.
00:09:10
El Platypo
Now, which part? Which part?
00:09:16
red23
Well, Jamie, I'm not going to disagree with you um for once, but I can't remember what I thought when I first first saw this episode.
00:09:16
Jen
well
00:09:23
red23
I probably thought it was ridiculous. But watching it now, I absolutely loved it.
00:09:25
El Platypo
eka It is ridiculous.
00:09:28
red23
I think it's become... I don't want to actually even say it's so bad. It's good. I just think it's good.
00:09:35
El Platypo
maybe maybe it's Maybe they saw the Rocky Horror Show and they were like, fuck it, let's just go for it. Let's just, let's go weird. Let's let's have, you know, hyper of old people who shouldn't be there and all of that stuff.
00:09:48
El Platypo
um Let's do the time warp.
00:09:48
Jen
It was definitely an element of like, yeah, I feel like Tom Paris or ah you know Robert, I can nearly say that right. ah he I feel like maybe he really enjoyed this like gore horror sort of a scenario where he's turning into the monster of Frankenstein or something.
00:09:57
red23
Yes.
00:10:01
red23
Yes.
00:10:02
El Platypo
Yeah. Yeah.
00:10:08
Jen
ah
00:10:08
red23
Well, Jamie, sorry to jump in there, but exactly for one I kind of have dropped off doing this, but I listened to the Delta Flyers, corresponding Delta Flyers episode. And yes, as an actor, he said it was the most he'd be given to do up until his point in Voyager.
00:10:23
El Platypo
ah wow
00:10:23
red23
And he rarely loved it. So he's quite defensive about the episode.
00:10:27
Jen
Oh, bless him. Yeah, and he, you know.
00:10:29
El Platypo
guess I mean, here isn't the problem, the the narrative and the plot is the problem.
00:10:31
red23
No.
00:10:33
El Platypo
um Although i so I sort of suspect, given the fact that um he
00:10:33
red23
Well,
00:10:39
El Platypo
did Did I get a vibe he didn't necessarily get on with Captain Mulgrew?
00:10:44
red23
He never says that openly on the podcast.
00:10:47
El Platypo
Okay. I sort of like, get the impression he sort of likes the fact that he kidnaps the captain in it.
00:10:54
Jen
Well,
00:10:55
red23
I think one thing you must understand, well, one thing I learned from listening to all these TV rewatch podcasts is all actors hate the person that gets most the most screen time.
00:11:02
El Platypo
Eh.
00:11:03
Jen
oh that does make sense i i mean my initial reactions were um again like red i can't remember the first time i watched it um but i don't know really i i i sort of it was not my favorite that that's that's for sure um i like the certain elements of it but um i think even with it being sci-fi
00:11:08
red23
Sorry, actors.
00:11:09
El Platypo
This is...
00:11:32
Jen
um there was a lot of like science madness that was a little bit like it was it it had a good idea behind it but then it just went a little bit a little bit too much like sort of weird off off the rails kind of not not necessarily that evolution sped up I mean they did say that that was what had happened like it was evolution and you know um accelerating but um there were just other elements of it all a bit sort of magical like when you reach a terminal what was it terminal velocity or something like you suddenly start speeding up the evolution process and like all kinds of um i mean i know it's star trek so it doesn't seem right because they're too far fetched but that's just how it felt yeah um and then i really there were certain scenes that i really struggled with but i'm gonna save that for later so
00:12:18
red23
ah
00:12:24
red23
Okay, interesting.
00:12:29
Jen
Who wants to go with their first interesting comment? Should we start with Jamie? Since we started in that order, Jamie read.
00:12:35
red23
Yep.
00:12:37
El Platypo
ah That's a bit harsh. i I don't have an interesting comment. I just have the fact that I rather enjoyed the doctors' ah sarcastic pseudo sadism when they revived Tom for the first time after he passes out after breaking the Transwarp.
00:12:57
El Platypo
It's not a speed limit but a speed record of Transwarp 10 and he explains to a very cautious seeming captain that Tom Parras has passed out and but it's all okay and nothing seems to be the problem he seems to be asleep and he's asked can we wake him and the doctor says I see no reason why we can't wake him.
00:13:01
red23
Yep.
00:13:19
El Platypo
WAKE UP!
00:13:21
Jen
with
00:13:22
El Platypo
which I just rather enjoy the Schadenfreude there as I suspect he didn't particularly like Tom Paris in an earlier moment in the episode disregarding his suggestion that sir his big moment be given to Ensign Kim on the basis that he had a 2% chance of brain aneurysm when he hit, you know, warp 5 or warp 10.
00:13:38
red23
Oh yeah.
00:13:45
red23
The doctor had some funny moments. and
00:13:48
El Platypo
He did. He had some good facial expressions.
00:13:51
Jen
Yeah, I agree.
00:13:52
red23
I thought.
00:13:52
Jen
I didn't like that moment. I like, especially because he said, yes, of course we can wake him up. and And then he sort of slowly bent down to him as as if he had some kind of, I don't know, hyperspray or something that he was going to apply to his temple before he then shouted, wake up.
00:14:09
red23
It was great.
00:14:09
Jen
It's a comic.
00:14:13
red23
I think, I don't know if anyone, I don't want to steal someone's point, but also when like Tom Parris describes how it was amazing and he was everywhere all at once, the doctor's like, I'm glad you had a good time." It was something like that.
00:14:26
red23
Just something very pithy like that, yeah.
00:14:26
Jen
Yeah.
00:14:30
Jen
Yeah. I mean, I have a favourite from um the doctor in this episode.
00:14:33
El Platypo
The doctor is growing.
00:14:36
Jen
um My particular was just the expression on his face when Paris is sort of starting to like lose his mind slightly and he starts, he thinks he's dying and he's talking about all the things in his life and his dad relationship with his dad and um you know all these things.
00:14:52
Jen
and um And then he comes out with bye My room as a child, I lost my virginity in that room. And then just the doctor's face. I mean, it's not even i anything you said.
00:15:03
Jen
Just the look of sort of revulsion and... um um Yeah.
00:15:09
red23
And he does make a very funny comment though. Well, I thought it was very funny when he, after that, I'll look at me and he's like, I'll be sure to note it in your medical records.
00:15:19
red23
I'm so good.
00:15:20
Jen
Classic doctor. So Red, do you have a... Next comment.
00:15:24
red23
Yes. ah Well, going back to the beginning, I guess, when they all in the ah canteen and, um, um, you know, it's the, it's the engineering crew like and Tom.
00:15:35
red23
So it's like Harry, Bilana, Tom trying to figure out this, uh, tracking Walk 10. And just Neelix's confidence as he joins them, it's really something beautiful to behold.
00:15:46
El Platypo
ah so
00:15:47
Jen
yeah
00:15:47
red23
Not reading the room, not sensing that he's not wanted. And like, you know, he's all like chatty and Tom is like tired. And I wrote down Tom's line, but he's like, do you know anything about quantum walk theory or multispectral subspace engine design?
00:16:03
red23
And Neelix is like, no, but I'm a quick study.
00:16:06
El Platypo
This is just
00:16:06
Jen
Yep.
00:16:08
red23
And like, Balan is like, is there anything to eat? And he's like telling her to help herself from the kitchen. And I don't know why, but he, all those moments always just, I just find them hilarious because I know that he would drive me insane in real life. And yet I love him as a character on Star Trek. It's just like, I'll be like, okay, don't you understand? You're useless to ask, go away. And then in the end, he was actually the genius because he,
00:16:35
Jen
Yeah.
00:16:36
red23
Even though he didn't know anything about those things, he could apply something of a similar nature and he triggered some inspiration.
00:16:42
Jen
i yeah go yeah I was just going to say that I did really enjoy that as well read that that whole scene, especially just the just like really overdone condescension of Tom Morris, like, oh, you think you know, as well as we do.
00:16:43
red23
So maybe his con... Sorry, Tim. I was just gonna say, like, maybe his confidence was warranted at the end.
00:17:00
red23
Yes.
00:17:06
Jen
It's just really overdone, which I quite enjoyed.
00:17:06
red23
yeah
00:17:09
red23
Here's a funny scene. I feel like Jamie's getting really jealous that you have a kitten and he doesn't right now.
00:17:11
Jen
And then
00:17:15
Jen
I know, I am, yeah, getting a bit distracted by this little pimp who's wandering all over me.
00:17:18
El Platypo
Well, I mean, you say that, you say that, but if either of you had been attentive enough to look at the chat, you would see why I've been being quite quiet and cautious looking.
00:17:24
red23
Oh and no.
00:17:27
El Platypo
Yeah, we ah we await the outcome of that situation imminently next to me with some trepidation.
00:17:31
red23
and Okay.
00:17:34
El Platypo
ah Feel free to read it out for our listeners for whom I'm building narrative tension by not saying it.
00:17:34
Jen
Oh dear, oh dear.
00:17:34
red23
ah
00:17:39
Jen
Well, I would just say there might be some interesting smells coming and your way soon.
00:17:39
red23
well
00:17:42
El Platypo
Yes. Why is my podcast station situated next to the kitty litter journey? I just want to ask about that. There seems to have been some strategic logistics here, and ah feel I feel exposed.
00:17:53
red23
Well... You're in the... You've been...
00:17:56
El Platypo
That's all I'm going to say. I feel exposed.
00:17:58
red23
You've been put in the dog box? Is that the expression? What do they say when you...
00:18:02
El Platypo
i think I think you mean the dog house, and that's rather the opposite of what I've been put next to, the kitty litter.
00:18:04
red23
Dog house. There we go. Yeah.
00:18:08
El Platypo
um But anyway,
00:18:09
Jen
Hey you chose, you chose that place.
00:18:12
El Platypo
I mean, only in the sense that one's place in life is the direct outcome of the sum of every single last one of one's choices.
00:18:12
Jen
um I'm going to
00:18:20
El Platypo
I don't think this was something I was directly opting for, Jen, but okay. um Is it my...
00:18:27
red23
I think it's Jenny's turn.
00:18:28
El Platypo
Oh, it's Jenny, I beg your pardon.
00:18:30
Jen
It is, it is, although I've kind of inadvertently sort of said a couple of mine because they were so well, they were so connected to you guys, but um I have, I have, I have a few.
00:18:37
El Platypo
That's okay.
00:18:39
Jen
So, um, o i but I'm just ah ah gay yet so sorry about that, kitten.
00:18:40
El Platypo
I love the fact you're adopting my moderation star. More chaos! More chaos!
00:18:49
El Platypo
It's only her work-like tap that has been smashed off of three-story building.
00:18:53
Jen
in case of his cause and chaos, but I'm just going to let him enjoy um whatever he's smashing and to continue. So um this is a bit i we were talking about initial oppressions.
00:19:04
Jen
and I obviously there are some really like um hard to watch scenes, the tongue one in particular, but but but actually, but I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm assuming
00:19:11
red23
Oh.
00:19:12
El Platypo
Oh, so for our listeners, what happens in the tongue one?
00:19:15
red23
Well, hopefully those have watched because otherwise this podcast won't make any sense to them.
00:19:19
Jen
Yeah, yeah, I'm assuming the list does know what we're talking about. But um actually, I actually found it pretty hard to watch the end scene as well, to be honest. It's basically just for for my personal taste, it was really, um like, really ah contrived.
00:19:36
Jen
Like, it it made me sort of cringe, you know? um And it wasn't.
00:19:39
red23
When you say the end scene, do you mean between Paris and January in the sick day or on the planet?
00:19:43
Jen
Yes, yeah, yeah, between
00:19:44
El Platypo
What do you mean with Paris and Jameway in the jungle?
00:19:49
Jen
Oh, no, I mean, um I mean, when they're back in the sick bay and they're having a discussion and actually the sort of learning from the discussion, I think, you know, it's really, it's a really nice one. and You know, it's all about self-respect and having to respect yourself as important, if not more important than having others respect, et cetera. um i I just think I don't know if it was like the screenplay or the way it was delivered, but it was just really like, oh, it's just a bit cringy.
00:20:17
Jen
ah So I really, I really struggled with that one. But what did you guys think?
00:20:21
red23
Well, Janie, I don't know if, I was about to say, yes, I loved us.
00:20:22
Jen
I think that you loved it, didn't you? I saw it in your nose.
00:20:27
red23
I don't know what's going on with me tonight. But the way, wait like Janie just comes in and like Paris is obviously awkward and she's like, well, I always thought about having children, but never with you. Just like getting to the point straight away.
00:20:37
El Platypo
This is
00:20:40
red23
And she's just like, and he's like, oh, I'm sorry, I don't remember, blah, blah, blah. She's well, She's like, well, why are you assuming you made the first move? And some species, the woman initiates the meeting and all this kind of stuff.
00:20:52
red23
And then I think you're right.
00:20:53
Jen
Yeah.
00:20:54
red23
I mean, I thought that was just very funny and like very, you know, I think I tried to deal with awkwardness with humor, which is kind of what I think she was doing there.
00:21:04
Jen
yeah Yeah.
00:21:06
red23
And I think you're right that Tom did have that um kind of growing moment because he thought Conquering this barrier was gonna make him feel amazing and worthwhile and doesn't always work like that.
00:21:19
Jen
yeah
00:21:20
red23
So...
00:21:21
Jen
I mean, i I would say I did really enjoy, it was more the end of that scene.
00:21:21
El Platypo
Interesting.
00:21:21
red23
I don't know why, but I... Yeah.
00:21:26
Jen
I did ah agree with you. I really enjoyed how the captain handled. It was a very captain-y way of handling that awkward situation, the way she said, you know, I mean, he's big basically telling him not to feel bad because, well, what about if I was the one who was like the sexual initiator?
00:21:39
red23
Yeah.
00:21:40
Jen
You know, I didn't enjoy that as a very Jane May moment.
00:21:41
red23
yeah
00:21:44
Jen
But what did you think of it, Dave? Did you like that end scene?
00:21:47
El Platypo
ah i mean
00:21:53
El Platypo
I mean... It's a bit of a weird one, because like in terms of dealing with an awkward situation, yes, absolutely textbook, but i just it just didn't feel like it would happen.
00:22:06
El Platypo
Like, oh yeah, well nothing has happened. We're back where we started. And that was a bit of a weird one.
00:22:11
red23
You've never dated me.
00:22:14
El Platypo
Hey?
00:22:14
red23
and I going to say, you've never hooked up with me.
00:22:17
El Platypo
Uh, no, i know I have not. That is correct.
00:22:22
red23
No, but I mean, they do pack a lot into this episode in a sense, which is like, you're just like, what, what, what?
00:22:22
El Platypo
ah
00:22:26
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:22:29
El Platypo
Why is this craziness?
00:22:29
Jen
yeah
00:22:29
red23
oh
00:22:30
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:22:31
Jen
And they they all just seem to sort of deal with it, like they haven't been traumatized for life. Like they've just, you know, it's all very lighthearted. We've just, you know, accidentally had grown into another species, evolutionally evolved, had sex, had babies. Oh, but you know, I've learned something about self-respect.
00:22:49
El Platypo
Yeah, and I've abandoned my children, as have you, dear husband.
00:22:49
Jen
yeah
00:22:54
red23
Ah, so funny.
00:22:55
El Platypo
That's weird. um
00:23:00
Jen
Where are we are we? Are we on to the next next Jamie comment?
00:23:03
El Platypo
i think it's me and um so i i'm i would just like i mean i'm not gonna hate on elix uh but yet another uh situation eventuates from his intervention in an episode and rather than lambastin for the ah risk he exposes the crucially through in expert expert expertise i would just like to ask do you guys see him as the narrative agent or the uh
00:23:04
red23
Yeah, I think so.
00:23:13
Jen
and But.
00:23:33
El Platypo
Prince of Misrule figure in this series that's eternally being used to generate plot narrative and plot momentum and twist by the, ah frankly, the writers because of the fact that he is the sort of not completely straight down the line character in the crew.
00:23:51
red23
oh Interesting question.
00:23:56
El Platypo
Jenny?
00:23:56
Jen
Yeah, I mean, I can see what you mean, like, I think to a certain extent, like, in all, and in all this sort of Star Trek series, they always have at least one of those characters, if not more, who are like, not really part of the crew.
00:24:03
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:24:07
Jen
They're not really part of Starfleet.
00:24:07
El Platypo
Yeah. what Would Quark the Ferengi fall into that category, do you think?
00:24:15
red23
Yeah. I'm just, I'm like such a bad analyzer, even though I want to be a TV writer.
00:24:16
Jen
in
00:24:20
red23
So it's not a good sign.
00:24:21
El Platypo
Aww.
00:24:22
red23
I mean, like not, not a full time working on, but you know, working on my little side project.
00:24:25
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:24:26
red23
But yes, I'm sure he's some kind of like with for some people, well-recognized archetype or, um, and he certainly does propel a lot of stories or like, I guess it's also cause he has connections to the outside world, like, um, where is it?
00:24:30
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:24:40
El Platypo
Hmm, that's exactly what I mean.
00:24:41
red23
Everyone else's. Yeah.
00:24:43
Jen
and
00:24:43
El Platypo
Because of the fact he does connect, then that generates the opportunity for incident and and event.
00:24:49
red23
Yeah.
00:24:52
Jen
which i guess is yeah it's all down to him this episode isn't it if he hadn't inspired the idea on how they could and he wouldn't have learned self-esteem
00:24:56
El Platypo
if he If he hadn't told them how to break warp 10, then Tom Parris would still be childless.
00:25:00
red23
Yeah!
00:25:05
El Platypo
Or would he?
00:25:10
red23
yeah
00:25:10
El Platypo
Yeah, it can be taught in a one-off instant, one meeting, one relationship with Captain Janeway and you've got respect. Self-respect, I should say.
00:25:22
red23
Um, yeah.
00:25:22
El Platypo
Okay.
00:25:22
Jen
So red, Eddie. Any thoughts or next comments?
00:25:25
El Platypo
And he builds.
00:25:27
red23
Oh, I don't think I have anything else to add to that point. I do agree with you. I just feel like I need to go away and do some analysis or find an article that, right? Like someone's probably compared all the characters from Star Trek and like into types and then put them into like, slotted them where they all kind of match maybe.
00:25:35
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:25:39
El Platypo
this this
00:25:45
Jen
Yeah, I bet. Imagine someone doing that. I'm sure there's, I'm sure it's, I mean, it was obviously like formulaic, but obviously most of these shows are aren't they? I mean, I don't think necessarily takes away from the enjoyment of them anyway.
00:25:59
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:26:00
red23
Yeah, not at all. Not at all.
00:26:04
Jen
Next point, Red, next point.
00:26:06
red23
Okay, so um I think, well, where am I gonna go now? I have read a lot of random points down. So as I said, I listened to the Delta Fliers podcast before I watched the episode and in the scene where Captain Janeway goes to Tom Parris's.
00:26:21
red23
quarters, he's wearing a robe. And on the podcast, um at Robert Duncan Neal kept going on about it. He's like, why is he wearing a robe? Why is he wearing a robe? I don't understand why he's wearing a robe. I felt so uncomfortable with the robe.
00:26:31
red23
And I was like, wow, he's really going on about the robe.
00:26:31
El Platypo
Yes.
00:26:33
red23
The moment those doors opened, I was like, why is he wearing a robe?
00:26:38
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:26:40
red23
I awkward with that robe. And I'm like, he doesn't look awkward, but it's like, would you chat to your captain while you were in a robe? I guess people used to wear robes a lot. I don't know. But I, it was just funny because I thought he was kind of like a bit too hung up on the robe and then that scene opened and I was like, nah, I could hear.
00:26:57
red23
I also feel a bit strange that he's wearing a robe and talking to his captain.
00:27:03
Jen
i mean that must feel pretty awkward i wonder if it's one of those like it's based on those medical robes where you tie it at the back so your bum's basically hanging out even more awkward i did think it was a bit weird like it did cross my mind i was like interesting costume choice but
00:27:03
red23
He was... No.
00:27:12
El Platypo
Oh gosh.
00:27:15
red23
I think that would be even more awkward, but they managed to get through the scene, but I was just wondering if anyone else felt awkward, or maybe it was just the seed was planted by listening to that podcast, and then that was influenced.
00:27:24
El Platypo
this yeah
00:27:36
red23
Yeah, that was a short and sweet pun, sorry.
00:27:36
Jen
I guess that's...
00:27:37
red23
Back to you, Jenny.
00:27:39
Jen
Back to me! Oh my goodness, I've run out, I've run out!
00:27:43
red23
Ah, you haven't run out.
00:27:44
El Platypo
What? Have you?
00:27:46
Jen
Because I basically said a few of them like through the you know initial impressions and um in response to you guys.
00:27:55
red23
Ah, yes.
00:27:55
Jen
So I've run out. However, I've noticed, um just you know for for all our dear eight listeners, we we you know write some little notes to ourselves basically. um so we know what we want to chat about. I've noticed someone has added a note to my section.
00:28:11
red23
Yes, I don't know... I don't think Jamie understands colors, sections, or bullet points. I don't know.
00:28:18
El Platypo
I mean, the way you just elongated when you said, I don't think Jamie understands sections.
00:28:19
red23
but
00:28:25
El Platypo
It's like, where are you going with that, Red?
00:28:28
red23
Sorry that's not what I meant.
00:28:29
El Platypo
Red doesn't understand pronunciative drama.
00:28:30
red23
well
00:28:34
red23
a Or just giving you an extra point.
00:28:35
Jen
oh dear
00:28:36
El Platypo
ah No, so yeah, that's that's true.
00:28:36
Jen
I'm going to default to you guys now.
00:28:39
red23
I don't know.
00:28:40
El Platypo
No, I didn't i didn't mean to, that but that was one of my favorite ones and it sort of references my favorite adult animated series, Archer. So, you know, I wanna do that one.
00:28:49
Jen
I think you should because i I mean, I would love to, but I actually don't understand it. So you're going to have to explain that one.
00:28:54
El Platypo
So and basically Tom Parris in this episode is Tom Cruise in Top Gun and the absolute iconic theme tune of that is Danger Zone by Kenny Loggins and basically Tom Parris goes massively into the Danger Zone and you know, so um Archer, the iconic character ah of
00:29:00
red23
Yes!
00:29:08
Jen
ye love nu
00:29:21
El Platypo
the series archer which i absolutely love anytime he's trying to suggest that uh someone is into him goes call kenny largens because you're in the danger zone ah and i'm just like that's exactly the sort of thing that tom paris would say i mean it's incredibly cringe but yeah it's i love archer as the funniest thing ever
00:29:31
red23
ah
00:29:35
Jen
Yep, a little bit.
00:29:36
red23
What a great line. You're going to have to watch Archer.
00:29:44
red23
Well, I also, I did make a little note because at some points I got a, um, I didn't quite go back to ah Top Gun. I went back to Top Gun Maverick when, uh, one of the, the opening scene where they like, he's doing that test flight and pushing that black aircraft, like, yeah.
00:29:55
El Platypo
I've come over it.
00:30:00
El Platypo
I mean it's it's basically the same movie.
00:30:03
red23
It's basically the same, yes, but it's just close- it's closer in my memory, so totally agree.
00:30:04
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:30:10
Jen
I mean, I did, I do know exactly what you mean by that. It was definitely like parallels between one of these like, you know, boys, racer kind of movies, like Top Gun.
00:30:20
El Platypo
this
00:30:21
Jen
And I actually, I had put a little comment earlier in the initial impressions, but then I just felt like it was a bit too mean, but I think I would say anyway.
00:30:30
El Platypo
Oh, I want to hear it. Tell us the mean.
00:30:31
Jen
i
00:30:32
El Platypo
Tell us the mean.
00:30:32
Jen
As you know, I love Star Trek and I love Voyager. It's just maybe the stuff that wasn't quite for me. And so in my initial impressions, I put equal parts boring and disgusting.
00:30:44
El Platypo
oh
00:30:45
Jen
The boring part refers to this whole like, I think there's like an eraser boy element but like, oh, we're gonna hit this whatever target to go really fast, even faster than we've been before. Which is a little bit uninteresting to me. I mean, I know it's like breaking barriers and terminal velocity, I'm sure, I just don't understand all the physics behind it and that kind of thing.
00:31:06
Jen
I did find it a little bit boring.
00:31:06
red23
Just to, not not to correct you, but it was a point of mine, but it's infinite velocity, which Nelix just calls very fast at some point.
00:31:11
Jen
Infinite velocity.
00:31:14
Jen
Yes, and sort of done a Neelix and just said very fast, infinite velocity.
00:31:17
red23
oh Well, no, it's only because I made a note and I, you know, I don't want one of my eight listeners to be yelling at us saying, it's infinite velocity.
00:31:18
Jen
I keep thinking that's not the right word, but I can think what the right one was. Thank you.
00:31:27
Jen
Yeah, I'd be really annoying them about now because I've said that several times, yeah. It's infinite, infinite, infinite. There we are.
00:31:34
red23
Um, well, I have a question for you, Janie. I know you don't have a point and now we're going into the free form. Sorry, but I'm curious.
00:31:40
Jen
right
00:31:41
red23
You know, the doctor finally comes up with a solution to transform these two salamanders back into humans, which is anti-proton radiation therapy.
00:31:51
red23
Now, when I learned a little bit about gene therapy, when I learned a little bit about gene therapy, I thought this will never work.
00:31:52
El Platypo
Oh, that would definitely work.
00:31:59
red23
Um, because I couldn't quite understand how just changing a few cells was going to change the whole body. But I think gene therapies come out a long way. But what did you think about the plausibility of this ah therapy or the proposed solution from the doctor, from your medical perspective?
00:32:15
Jen
Well, I was kind of at this with like, I do not know all of the the therapy areas or the treatments and but there's quite likely something out there that, you know, this might reference that makes sense. But I have no idea why that would work red. Like, why is basically radiating him, radiating him to make him evolve backwards. Like, I don't know how on earth that would ever work. um Or even how the two things are particularly connected I mean, I guess they're connected in that the cells are mutating but I don't know how that would really be connected to gene therapy because that's where you're like splicing in part of a gene and therefore
00:32:42
red23
link
00:32:47
red23
Linked.
00:32:52
red23
Well, why I said gene, I mean, I made the link to gene therapy, but it's, I just reminded me because the doctor was going to destroy all the salamander cells and then hope that the Tom's remaining cells with his DNA will recreate Tom.
00:33:06
red23
I don't know how that works.
00:33:06
Jen
Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, exactly. I'm like, what why would you hope that? I don't know why that would happen. There's like no, but then to be fair, like the doctor is just trying everything because he's tried everything he thinks logically might work.
00:33:13
red23
I, and it did work, but I guess what, I mean, I know it's like really, so it's really, really sci-fi, but just cause you, like, I guess maybe I don't know enough about gene therapy, but just because you destroy a bunch of cells, like all those cells are gonna like die.
00:33:18
Jen
And I guess he's just ah come up with, you know, but yeah, I really don't know. Is the answer.
00:33:39
red23
I don't understand how the other cells will replace those cells,
00:33:43
Jen
I mean, I guess, unless, unless we're thinking, I mean, I guess if you think about it in terms of cancer, like then, you know, you're getting radiation therapy.
00:33:43
red23
Maybe.
00:33:50
red23
Yes, but youre go you don't get transformed into a salamander, don't you?
00:33:51
Jen
so like No, but you're killing off the, um, the cancer, which is actually your own mut mutated cells.
00:33:57
El Platypo
Friday night.
00:33:59
Jen
Um, and that's, you know, so you're only left with, and also if you get, um, like now they're doing like personalized, um, I can't remember the name of it, um, but it's basically personalized chemotherapy where it just targets, um, the cancer cells.
00:33:59
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:34:06
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:34:12
Jen
Um, and then the non-mutated cells can sort of regenerate.
00:34:13
red23
Oh yes, I learned about that recently. Yeah.
00:34:17
Jen
So, I mean, maybe there's something in there. Yeah.
00:34:20
red23
Okay, so you just, you seem to think that there's something in it.
00:34:20
Jen
I guess that kind of makes sense.
00:34:23
red23
Okay.
00:34:23
Jen
I've talked myself into it.
00:34:24
red23
Yeah, nice. Interesting.
00:34:27
Jen
Maybe that's the concept they were going for, like cancer therapy sort of analogy. I don't know.
00:34:33
red23
Yeah, probably.
00:34:37
Jen
I can't remember. I think it's called immunotherapy.
00:34:40
red23
yes yes i did just learn all about it actually on a project about non-small cell lung cancer but that is a not a topic for another discussion
00:34:45
Jen
Ooh.
00:34:47
El Platypo
Nice.
00:34:53
Jen
Tough one, yep.
00:34:54
red23
no
00:34:55
El Platypo
No worries.
00:34:56
Jen
Oh, great survival set rates in cancer.
00:34:59
El Platypo
I love the way that we've we've just mentioned her sphere of expertise and Jenny has just trailed away into a different world. Her mind is in other places.
00:35:08
Jen
Yeah, it was a bit.
00:35:10
El Platypo
ah
00:35:10
Jen
I was just thinking about a conversation I had with some colleagues about different cancers together.
00:35:11
El Platypo
That's what I said.
00:35:15
red23
oh
00:35:18
El Platypo
Tell us, moderate us, moderate us to glory.
00:35:20
Jen
oh it's not it would yes sorry yeah um i mean it wouldn't be an interesting topic and to anyone else really so let's moving on moving on um jamie i believe we're back to you since i've run out
00:35:22
El Platypo
yeah
00:35:33
El Platypo
I don't know, that's okay, although i I just rather thought that R8 listeners would quite enjoy listening to you giggling way to yourself about something you're not sharing, and I was really rather enjoying that and trying to drag it out.
00:35:44
El Platypo
i'm So, i I mean, we've all done Tom's robe, but like, I tried to put it without being too blatant about is there a hint of what's to come with the captain visiting Tom in his negligee, um which presumably there is.
00:36:00
red23
Foreshadowing. Oh.
00:36:02
El Platypo
Foreshadow, yep. But um I sort of evolved that point rather slower than the evolution that was going on in this episode into, is everyone like cool about the captain just being kidnapped, hyper-evolved against her will, having kids while hyper-evolved and then all shocks nothing happened?
00:36:19
El Platypo
I mean, not even a, I don't know, sexual harassment disciplinary?
00:36:22
red23
You're just always gonna bring Aetar into this, Jamie.
00:36:25
El Platypo
Look, they're the solution to everything.
00:36:26
Jen
and
00:36:27
El Platypo
They're completely underrepresented in the Star Trek canon, and and and um yes, yes, essentially, Reg, you've you've got me down there.
00:36:27
red23
Whoo.
00:36:32
Jen
think I think vying for a job in HR and this is like some kind of advertisement opportunity.
00:36:38
El Platypo
I mean, anything to get out from under my current direction, but anyway.
00:36:44
red23
About someone is Jamie.
00:36:47
red23
Well, sorry, Jenny, go ahead.
00:36:48
Jen
and
00:36:50
El Platypo
Views. Is everyone cool with that, then?
00:36:52
Jen
Well, that's what I was going to say. I mean, definitely not not cool with it.
00:36:54
El Platypo
You're all cool with the Skipper just being evolved into a reptile against our will to have kids.
00:36:58
Jen
I think that's part of like when we were talking earlier about like what we and potentially others who weren't so keen on this episode didn't like so much is the way it like goes from this like um you know they're they're beating what they go from beating beating world records and um infinite velocity to like pretty traumatic experiences for both the captaining song and then rounding it up with a nice oh well all's well that ends well sort of jolly light-hearted ending um
00:37:11
El Platypo
It's not going from the sublime to the ridiculous.
00:37:26
El Platypo
i say I take it back. they They do go from the sublime break and the speed barrier to the ridiculous of the finish.
00:37:33
Jen
So I'm trying to say I agree. I think it's all very strange. What do you think, Red?
00:37:38
red23
Oh, yeah, I think, well, I don't think an HR complaint is warranted because I think a salamander is just doing whatever salamanders would do. That's to propagate their species.
00:37:47
El Platypo
i'm sorry but you know that argument could be made of any two humans and what all two humans made humans just do what humans do right it's only human it's only human to love anyway yeah search yeah and intelligence yeah
00:37:51
red23
No, can't, because humans are not animals. So. I think there's a big difference.
00:37:59
Jen
Well, it depends. Are the salamanders Well, they've evolved, right? So does that mean they must have even more consciousness and bigger brains, presumably?
00:38:13
red23
Well, that that might be true. there There's no evidence in this episode to suggest that.
00:38:16
El Platypo
there's no evidence against it.
00:38:17
Jen
It doesn't seem like they do, does it?
00:38:18
El Platypo
ah hey um Tom was evolving forward, not backward, because you know that's not in our evolutionary past.
00:38:18
red23
There's no evidence either way.
00:38:20
Jen
yeah
00:38:27
El Platypo
and
00:38:27
red23
But the doctor did say that he was changing personality as he was involving.
00:38:32
El Platypo
He was, but he did
00:38:33
red23
Like he still had some time, but it was a lot of something else.
00:38:35
El Platypo
but But he did also say that they were hyper-evolving the way that humanity would evolve forward. So again, more brain matter, more brain size and less sort of sort of other organs.
00:38:46
El Platypo
So, you know, evolving more intelligent.
00:38:50
Jen
I have a ah question which has just occurred to me.
00:38:53
El Platypo
I will answer with full confidence and absolutely no intelligence.
00:38:58
Jen
think It's good to know.
00:38:58
red23
Ah, my knee licks.
00:39:01
Jen
Tom got into this situation by going on the one trip to infinite velocity and then Janeway
00:39:01
El Platypo
Howdy.
00:39:11
red23
Oh, Janie. No, no. Don't just start questioning what happened there.
00:39:14
El Platypo
so yeah
00:39:15
Jen
ah well
00:39:17
red23
And we'll break down very quickly.
00:39:19
Jen
Well, I just wondered, by the end, Jamie's only ah been on one terminal velocity, infinite velocity trip, and Tom's been on two.
00:39:19
red23
Please continue.
00:39:28
Jen
So, I don't know, is he just gonna, would he not just continue evolving? So he'd actually be at another higher stage of evolution.
00:39:36
red23
Oh, that is a good point.
00:39:39
Jen
Or is this like the end stage, that is it?
00:39:40
red23
That is a good point.
00:39:41
Jen
The salamander form is the end of evolution.
00:39:44
El Platypo
It's like Super Saiyan 5.
00:39:48
Jen
Yeah.
00:39:48
red23
You know, that was a good question.
00:39:48
Jen
Anyway, slightly a rhetorical question. small
00:39:51
red23
I like that. I mean, maybe from like, well, I mean, I know it's not really how evolution works, but the doctor implied that in Tom's genes, he had the blueprint for future evolution.
00:40:00
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:40:02
Jen
The other thing, which I think
00:40:04
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:40:05
red23
And maybe he reached the end of that. So maybe that was the end or maybe that, yeah, you're right.
00:40:06
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:40:10
red23
He could have been an even more evolved.
00:40:15
Jen
I mean, this is probably one of the ones that the commenters, you know, you were talking about earlier, Red, who who like got a bit, you know, over the the top, like I do of about, oh, but that's wrong, that would never happen, you know, when it's sci-fi.
00:40:28
Jen
But like, that what was hard to get my head around was like, the concept of evolution, it happens in an environment with many species, and it's the sort of survival of the fittest.
00:40:38
red23
Yes, yes.
00:40:41
Jen
So like, you wouldn't, you know what I mean? Like, so you wouldn't have sort of someone
00:40:45
Jen
Anyway.
00:40:45
red23
Yes, Jenny.
00:40:47
red23
I can read you this comment from Rachel that she left on Sunday, January the 18th, 2009.
00:40:52
Jen
Oh yeah, go on, go on!
00:40:55
El Platypo
gosh.
00:40:55
red23
The very worst thing about this episode is something that I don't think anyone mentioned here. These writers seem to have no idea how evolution works. A single individual cannot evolve new traits like Paris did in this episode. The traits, sorry that's hard to pronounce, of a species change as they are passed from one generation to another. An individual fish does not suddenly grow legs.
00:41:15
El Platypo
Yes, but people don't suddenly evolve by going, you know, incredibly fast.
00:41:16
Jen
and
00:41:18
El Platypo
So if we're going to start questioning the science, it's questioned at the start, not at the end. By the time we've broken the first science barrier, everything is possible red.
00:41:26
red23
Ah, yes. Well, wow, another person's saying that Tom Parrish should have died. I'll check in.
00:41:31
Jen
oh god
00:41:33
red23
Ah.
00:41:33
Jen
but so But then he never would have married Belanna, which we all, let's face it, how can you not love her?
00:41:37
El Platypo
yeah I just want to know how the screen testing went with this episode because like it must have been brutal.
00:41:38
red23
Yes.
00:41:45
red23
Oh, wait. Uh, okay, no, sorry. I thought someone was giving it ah a good review and then it just turns out they're pretending to have a nightmare or something.
00:41:55
Jen
Oh no. Oh no.
00:41:55
El Platypo
and so
00:41:57
Jen
This has been a real night Star Trek fashioning episode. I feel like, you know, I gotta wait. I gotta hope for a good one the next time.
00:42:02
El Platypo
yeah
00:42:04
red23
I think people need to rewatch it now in 2024 and just like some, you know, like as a cult classic, not necessarily as a best episode, like a good episode.
00:42:06
Jen
Yeah.
00:42:08
El Platypo
i just
00:42:13
Jen
yeah Yeah.
00:42:15
El Platypo
I mean, I really enjoyed it, I've got to be honest.
00:42:17
Jen
Good.
00:42:18
red23
I did, I did. And I, can I throw in one more?
00:42:19
El Platypo
I mean, it was awful, but I really enjoyed it.
00:42:23
red23
And they went to a lot of effort. I mean, we haven't really commented on the Emmy award-winning makeup, ah but I was, I mean, at some points I couldn't really even look at Tom. I mean, not just because his time was falling out, but he just looked so uncomfortable.
00:42:39
Jen
Yeah, I mean, from that perspective, I can understand that that when you said that they had won an Emmy, I was quite surprised.
00:42:39
red23
ah
00:42:45
Jen
But then when you explained what the Emmy was for, I can completely understand that because I mean, I i was disgusted and therefore they must have done a great job.
00:42:53
red23
yeah And one thing that ah Robert Duncan McNeil said on the, he described a bit of the, not really the makeup, but I guess his Well, I guess it's related to the makeup. So I don't know if you remember when he's like, come back to life and he's now kind of mutating, but he's still, it's not his final form, but you know, his head's becoming lump and then he starts to get, I guess his gills on the side.
00:43:20
red23
And it's very subtle, but there's like his gills are breathing, like expanding in and out. And apparently they were just like people sitting on the ground with these pipes going up through the pants of his legs, up into his costume, or this like plastic mask blowing into the would create this gill like effect.
00:43:32
El Platypo
Ugh!
00:43:37
red23
And all he could hear was like, And he couldn't hear what the like other actors were saying.
00:43:41
Jen
like
00:43:43
red23
And he just was trying to lip read and go into his acting. All these people were blowing into his mask, which I was like, well, amazing.
00:43:47
Jen
Oh wow.
00:43:49
El Platypo
and
00:43:51
Jen
Oh my goodness, that is a lot of effort. Yeah, I could understand whether one hear me.
00:43:56
red23
know
00:43:57
Jen
um I'm just thinking we've probably got about three each. So before we move on to themes, are there any last awesome points to bring up?
00:44:10
red23
No, but I just loved when he was feeling sorry for himself and he was in sick bed lying down and he was like, here lies Tom Eugene Paris, beloved mutant.
00:44:15
El Platypo
hmm
00:44:20
red23
When he was confronting his death, I enjoyed that line.
00:44:24
Jen
Yeah.
00:44:27
red23
But that is, and then, yeah, that's everything from my side.
00:44:27
Jen
cool that's everything everything okay we're going on to themes which i must admit i uh i just completely uh forgot to think of themes this time around so i'm gonna pass this over to jamie start with while i come up with some
00:44:47
El Platypo
Well, so to me, I just thought this, uh... this episode episode was all about evolution and the technological mirror of the biological and for once it all seemed to be brought together by the theme of speed because it's speed that acts the catalyst for Tom's hyper evolution but it's the speed of technological change that proves the catalyst for that and I just thought it was an unusual linking of those two concepts
00:45:19
El Platypo
in a way that isn't usually done in sci-fi. Normally, with the exception of the Borg, seems to be one or the other, not both being involved at the same time.
00:45:31
El Platypo
That was my thing.
00:45:32
red23
Nice.
00:45:33
El Platypo
Was that pretentious enough?
00:45:33
Jen
Yep.
00:45:34
red23
That was amazing, me pretentious. I loved it.
00:45:37
Jen
Yeah.
00:45:37
red23
No, I thought, um no, it's really a good point.
00:45:37
El Platypo
I'm so proud. Just doing my best work.
00:45:42
Jen
Yeah. Red, any team?
00:45:45
red23
Oh, yes, sorry. Well, my theme is really a line from Chakotay right at the beginning when they're discussing this technological evolution, I guess, before they do the test flight.
00:45:56
El Platypo
or when he says I, Captain.
00:45:56
red23
and When Shikote says, to be honest, it's almost frightening. Up until now, it's all been theory. I never thought it would actually happen. Are we ready for it? And I was like, this is my whole life problem is that I like to live with a theory and not go for that test flight.
00:46:13
red23
as So I thought it was, for some reason that line resonated with me and like maybe the theme is you should go for it.
00:46:13
Jen
oh
00:46:21
red23
Things can't stay theoretical forever. You might turn into a mutant salamander, but
00:46:24
Jen
a
00:46:28
red23
you will at least not be working at your current company. Yes.
00:46:31
El Platypo
Hey, that mutant salamander got some. I am not hearing a word against it.
00:46:35
Jen
Oh.
00:46:36
red23
That's true.
00:46:38
Jen
I well, I.
00:46:39
red23
Successfully ah populated a planet in outer space.
00:46:40
Jen
Good.
00:46:43
El Platypo
Only person to successfully date Kate, uh, uh, Catherine Janeway.
00:46:49
Jen
Well, and Tom's got, you know, like a Guinness World Record, whatever. I don't know if they still exist in Star Trek, um but, you know, if he did break warp 10.
00:46:55
El Platypo
Yep.
00:46:58
El Platypo
so this is
00:46:58
Jen
So, you are you know, he got some um credit for it. um Since you guys have covered the sort of evolutionary and technological themes, I would go for my favorite end theme of, you know, the theme of self-respect and, you know, maybe important what others think of you, but what's really important is what you think of yourself in full cheese mode.
00:47:18
red23
Yes. Very nice. That is an important message, though.
00:47:24
Jen
Yeah. So in that case, we're moving on to star player. Have you are you guys ready? Do you have an i idea?
00:47:34
red23
Wow, I did actually not think about this for some reason.
00:47:36
Jen
for um Neither did I.
00:47:39
El Platypo
I...
00:47:39
Jen
but Sorry, I totally found the speaker.
00:47:40
El Platypo
I have...
00:47:41
red23
Jamie, Jamie's ready. Jamie's ready.
00:47:44
Jen
Oh, good.
00:47:44
El Platypo
So I think the tadpoles, as they successfully make it out alive.
00:47:48
red23
Aww.
00:47:51
red23
Very good.
00:47:54
Jen
I think, well, okay, okay.
00:47:54
red23
I'm... Go for it, Jenny.
00:47:58
Jen
So because I'm going to hardly ever go for him, I think on this occasion, I'm going to give this one to Neelix because, you know, it's all down to him that they achieved their infinite velocity.
00:48:06
red23
Aww.
00:48:13
Jen
And, ah you know, he joined the table with the other Starfleet officers all being condescending to him and, you know, as if he's going to have a good idea. which, you know, he did. So, well done, headaches.
00:48:27
red23
That, that is very true. Oh man, I have, I'm now struggling to choose. Um, I, well, I think I'm going to go with, I'm going to go with Tom, Paris.
00:48:39
El Platypo
Go with Trikerti.
00:48:41
red23
I mean, A, he had to act with those people breathing in his face in his head. I know that's Robert Duggan McNeil, but, um, why?
00:48:52
red23
No, I had a reason before I said this.
00:48:54
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:48:55
red23
Maybe I'm getting confused between the actor and the character, but, um, yeah, I think he he did a good job of, um, I mean, a lot of, oh yes, this is why I was going to give him the character, the Starfare Award.
00:49:09
red23
Sorry, this is like watching me think out loud. Um.
00:49:11
El Platypo
This is so good.
00:49:13
red23
As you laid out Jenny, he went through a lot. He like broke, warped in, mutated, kidnapped someone, had babies, made it.
00:49:21
El Platypo
says
00:49:21
red23
And he seems to have come out of it a better person than he was before instead of totally broken. So yeah, I'll nominate Tom Parrots.
00:49:29
El Platypo
this
00:49:32
Jen
Excellent. And I know we're all this time around with all three of us went for we're nominating based on the characters reasons. Because I remember that when we started first doing this, I was always nominating the actors or actresses based on their performance.
00:49:45
El Platypo
yeah
00:49:47
Jen
But um yeah, I seem to flip flop.
00:49:49
red23
Well, either is fine, but it's, yeah.
00:49:52
Jen
Yeah, I flip flop lately. But to maybe I'll do you based on acting next time.
00:49:55
El Platypo
Could I nominate the guy who acts and he looks?
00:50:01
Jen
Yes, I can't remember his name.
00:50:02
red23
Yes.
00:50:03
El Platypo
Long suffering. Long suffering.
00:50:05
red23
Yeah.
00:50:07
El Platypo
That guy is a person who has spent his life perfecting his craft
00:50:11
red23
He is great. Ethan, what's his name?
00:50:15
Jen
Oh, Ethan Hawke.
00:50:17
red23
No, no, not Ethan. I could...
00:50:20
Jen
That's another Ethan, isn't it?
00:50:20
red23
It's taken me too long.
00:50:21
Jen
Oh, dear.
00:50:22
red23
I don't know why it takes so long. Oh, even Phillips. Yes, even Phillips.
00:50:25
Jen
Phillips.
00:50:27
red23
You write long suffering as well because he had to get to work at 4am every morning for his makeup.
00:50:27
Jen
Well done, Ethan Phillips.
00:50:33
Jen
Oh, maybe.
00:50:35
red23
Awful. Awful. um
00:50:38
Jen
Well, I think I think
00:50:39
El Platypo
for him we've done it we've polished it we have some might say oh sorry have we i mean i mean i don't like to say we've polished a turd on this episode because i quite enjoyed it
00:50:42
Jen
Yeah, we're through, threshold. Thank God.
00:50:46
red23
Through the threshold, well done, Tammy. I'll start playing our... No, I'll just slowly start playing our single while we talk ourselves our final few moments.
00:50:56
Jen
Yeah, I think this jingle suits this episode.
00:51:06
red23
I must've been in a different mood, but I loved it, and I... But I could watch it again, and I...
00:51:11
Jen
I'm...
00:51:12
El Platypo
I mean, sometimes bad trashy TV is good.
00:51:12
Jen
I'm really glad you guys loved it. Is this true?
00:51:17
red23
Oh, sorry, that got very loud. Yes. Well, I think we'll see each other in two weeks time.
00:51:19
El Platypo
I was enjoying it.
00:51:27
El Platypo
Don't we shall?
00:51:27
Jen
Yeah.
00:51:28
El Platypo
Don't we shall?
00:51:30
red23
Thanks.
00:51:30
El Platypo
Do you need...
00:51:31
Jen
Also.
00:51:31
El Platypo
No.
00:51:32
red23
I'm at Bonsoir.
00:51:32
El Platypo
Also, do you...
00:51:33
red23
Bye. Don't go anywhere.