Transcript
Red D: Three, two, one, and let's see if I hit the right jingle.
El Platypo: Wait, what dance party are we doing?
Red D: I can't remember, is this the intro or ultra? This is the intro.
El Platypo: Change it.
Red D: No, this is the intro.
Jen: ah
El Platypo: I want the outro.
Red D: Oh wait, sorry. Let me.
Jen: such a professional outfit oh i didn't realize they were different actually sorry i probably should have noticed that before
El Platypo: ah
Red D: Oh yes, sorry. The one at the end is the first intro.
Red D: Oh my God. And again, these were done by my brother. Uh, but the dance moves are all Jamie.
El Platypo: of doing the paw and the shark fin.
Red D: You know, I wanted to do a poll when I was in my twenties and someone said, I've ever seen you doing it on the dance floor. I'm going to come over and slap you.
Jen: Wow, that's a strong reaction.
Red D: I think it's because I had good
Jen: I mean Jade, that looks more like half shark. Don't smooth.
Red D: moves, Jamie. Okay. This is really fun for the non -visual medium.
Red D: I've never really let this jingle play out. Okay, I'm gonna hit it.
Jen: This is a really, I feel like it's not usually that long.
Red D: No, I normally stop it.
Jen: Oh wait.
Red D: And I was hoping it would fade out professionally, but Jamie left, was, I was.
Jen: Are you just enjoying his sweet dance moves, Rhett?
El Platypo: Sorry everyone, there was some street dance and then there was a ginger cat involved. Everyone's standard start to a podcast.
Jen: so
Red D: So today, Jenny, you're leading us, take it away.
Jen: So... Right, okay. Well, I think it's starting off with the one minute summary, if I'm not mistaken.
Red D: Would you like to remind us what episode we are?
Jen: Oh!
El Platypo: Please say no, please say no, please say no.
Jen: That'd be a really good idea, wouldn't it? Season two, episode 18, Death Wish.
El Platypo: No, Jenny, you can't just let us lead you when you're leading.
Red D: Yes.
El Platypo: Fred tells you to do something, you've got you've got to, you know, be like the boss from Nevermind the Buzzcocks and be like, no, no, I wouldn't. And things like that when things are suggested.
Red D: I really want to be in a fly on the wall in Jamie's office now.
Jen: No, no, no. I think, I'm not one of those people, Jamie, when someone makes a good suggestion in a meeting, I don't immediately dismiss it because it wasn't made by me.
Jen: I'm not one of those people.
El Platypo: Well, I tend to immediately, and in terms of the most adamant ah bossness, just go, no. Let a moment's silence pass and then I go, which is my way of saying, yes, absolutely. Please excuse the fact I have a personality problem.
Red D: I hope everyone's already picking up the similarities between Jamie and Q.
El Platypo: I am hurt by that. He, you know, is an amateur of, you know, pretty limited powers and scope. um But so, to the one minute summary, which I have been so, so proactively set up for. During this episode, we see the intrepid crew of Voyager jaying through the Delta Quadrant and finding an unidentified object flying through space, which appears to be a comet.
El Platypo: on scanning it and trying to teleport a sample of the comet back into the spaceship, they actually teleport what appears to be a person. It then transpires that this person is in fact a mysterious member of the race known as the Kew continuum, who have in fact been encountered by such luminaries as Jean -Luc Picard Riker and presumably the ranking officer of whichever Borg crew they were introduced to by the queue continue as we find out during this. The episode centres on the dilemma in which the queue they found seeks asylum on Star Trek Voyager and effectively asks for political protection as he wishes to commit suicide to escape what he claims are the cruel and intolerable conditions in which he is kept.
El Platypo: It then transpires that he is being kept in these conditions to avoid him taking his own life, as this would quote -unquote be of massive disruption to the continuum. We then see the intrepid crew run what can only be described as the worst ah HR Tribunal ever,
Red D: Come on.
El Platypo: um for constructive dismissal from an alien race to decide whether they will take on this weighty charge. How was that?
Jen: I'm tapping.
Red D: Yeah, that was brilliant, Jamie.
Jen: I don't know if you can hear it.
Red D: I think, honestly, that was one of your best ever.
El Platypo: I mean I tried to take pauses between words and then the cat joined so you know that was fine.
Jen: oh
Red D: I mean, each one has its own special character of your one minute summer meeting. So I'm not saying it should all be like this, but it was just very good.
Jen: Yeah.
Jen: It was very good. I enjoyed that one, but I also enjoy the ones where you managed to do it in one hilarious sentence. I think those are very impressive. So no, no.
El Platypo: but Yeah, but this one couldn't really be summed up as opposed to random transgalactic flancer objects to suicide pact. I can't really do that. Sorry, go for it.
Jen: ah but bit too serious wasn't it
Red D: Sorry Jenny, i just to interject here, i know I don't want to interrupt your your next step but something that we've never said on this podcast and I keep meaning to say is like we assume people will have recently watched the episode or have some knowledge on the episode because we don't really go into plot or that was a very good summary so I think someone could get scaped by with just that summary but it's not always like that so if you do listen
Jen: ah
El Platypo: Ranting.
El Platypo: Yeah, deliberately so. we don't We don't want people to find out about Star Trek from this. We might give them spoilers.
Red D: Go find it on Netflix.
El Platypo: This is for the Illuminati.
Red D: Go find it on wherever. Yeah.
El Platypo: We'd ruin it for them if they watched our podcast.
Jen: Do you know what I assume, Red, is that if anyone does listen, it's possibly the kind of scenario that I find myself in when I'm listening to that Delta Flyer podcast where I i love the Star Trek word episodes so much that I've seen them so many times that I haven't watched it just before I listen to the podcast.
Red D: No, you don't have to have watched it just before.
Jen: But I remember stuff so well that I just, you know, I know it so well that I can basically remember, oh yes, I remember that episode.
Red D: Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Jen: I don't know what they're talking about.
Red D: Exactly. Assuming some familiarity, I guess is a better way of putting it with the episode.
El Platypo: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: Sorry. Back to you, Jenny.
Jen: oh well thank you um so we're on to one cool thing and i have something that is not not really not even mildly interesting but if there's no other cool things i'll say it what do you reckon red it was i i just i just said this is only interesting to me um but you know you have like
Red D: Throw it in there. Throw it in there. Yes.
Jen: um I think that the guy who plays Q is brilliant um and I always like to do a little bit of a wickedly Wikipedia page ah read about actresses that I like ah and I just found his background kind of interesting like ah there's all this stuff about his act
Red D: Yes.
El Platypo: Yes.
Jen: atheist activism. um And, you know, he he grew up in a religious school, I think it said.
Red D: Okay.
Jen: But then he sort of, I guess, rebelled against that and and feels quite strongly. There's some quotes in there about um how he feels about religion and and the negative side of it. um And I just thought that was really interesting, I guess, especially in the context of this episode, but they're talking about something which is like quite heavily think views centered around religion and, you know, certain
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: you know, Christian religions, it's considered a sin against God's wish and to commit suicide and all these kind of things. So I thought, wow, it must have been a really interesting episode for him to film when he has these sort of quite, you know, religious initial background, but then quite strong views.
El Platypo: Hmm.
Jen: um
Red D: Yeah that is so interesting. And do you remember his name of hand for our listeners?
Jen: Oh, gosh.
El Platypo: his is is what's going on john delancey but let's turn around now all a i this guy guy
Red D: Jamie, his the actor's name.
Jen: Oh, well done.
Red D: I was going to say John C. Delaney. ah For some reason, I moved the C out of Nancy.
Jen: so Oh, the other cool thing is that apparently he's very good friends with Katie Melbourne.
Red D: Oh,
Red D: um amazing.
Jen: That's nice.
Red D: And I'll throw in something random. He was in an episode of Motor She Wrote, which made me very happy.
Jen: oh
Red D: As an as a rich art thief,
El Platypo: ah me
El Platypo: Of course he is.
Red D: ah of course.
Jen: well
El Platypo: Although I do think that the whole being against organised religion comes through quite well in how he plays the character because he sort of uses it to puncture the pomposity of this sort of and show the ridiculousness of what would be an omnipotent on sort of being in the Star Trek canon. He makes this individual seem absolutely ridiculous and also terrifying, as well as, you know, good -hearted occasionally.
Red D: Yeah, well, it just seems like a good fit for the actor, which I guess you don't always get if you're an actor. So, yeah, very interesting. Thank you, Jenny.
Jen: about initial reactions?
El Platypo: Oh, I mean, I just thought that that was an awful H .R. tribunal.
Red D: Well, go ahead, sorry.
Jen: This Well, I was just going to say that, well, that contradicts quite strongly with the notes I'm looking at that you made to Jamie.
Red D: Yes, that's what I thought.
Jen: I mean, you have three exclamation points, three in a row for this episode.
El Platypo: nay I actually said it was amazables. I loved keeping the imp of misrule. the harlequin of the tale, and perhaps that last syllable of the word harlequin is meaningful in this context.
Red D: Oh, very nice.
Jen: Intrigue. What about you, Red?
Red D: Yes. Well, I had two initial reactions. I mean, overall, when when I got into it, I think I similar to, well, it's like, it's law as a legal drama in space. So I was like, and I could see that like this type of topic being addressed in a law and order episode. So, which I also love. So I was very happy, but I also was like super busy today.
Red D: So when I sat down to watch it and realized, you know, as the openings, um, for the teaser was starting, I was like, Oh my gosh, there's so much to get through. And I know it like, doesn't make the episode take longer, but for some reason I was like, how am I going to get from like this, this through this whole massive storyline and just like 45 minutes.
El Platypo: Hmm.
Red D: I was like, there was a bit of a that because I knew what was coming and that as just an element of like TV is like how you can really like lose track of time and everything when you're in it. But if you kind of know what's coming, it can feel like quite a big,
Red D: um but I it's just because I was busy and I felt like a lot to go through because I knew it was coming but overall I mean I do love it.
Jen: Hmm.
Red D: It's so law and order and space so I was very happy.
Jen: Yes, I agree.
El Platypo: Hmm.
Jen: i I do love a good legal drama.
El Platypo: Yeah.
Jen: I like, i like you know, even the the books, you know, John Grisham and that kind of thing, so anything of of that ilk.
Red D: Oh yes.
El Platypo: just
Jen: And I especially love when they do it in Star Trek, because the thing is, if you try and watch like a courtroom thriller type film or something, quite a lot of them have a a bit of horror gore side to them as well, which I am not a fan of.
Jen: The ones in Star Trek are usually quite um centered on the actual sort of legal procedure, which is, I swear I'm not a lawyer or anything in that field, but I just, I think in another life I might've been, I've had it quite interesting.
Red D: What did she prefer?
Red D: You could have been.
Jen: um And I guess it's more like, it's not just the law, it's like the philosophical debate, which is fine and interesting listening think to you.
Red D: Yes.
Jen: So I loved it.
Red D: Good.
Jen: Now, who are we going to first? I reckon Kimmy stayed in the same order.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: It's easier for my brain. Jamie,
El Platypo: Really, yours is first.
Jen: that you would first in the initial reactions.
El Platypo: Oh, you mean the the order in which we spoke? Oh, this is going to be confusing. Well, I mean, I knew that other folk found moments of casual sexism that spoke to their heart in the same way they spoke to mine, but I just felt that my favourite moment of casual gratuitous sexism was Q telling the captain, you're angry when you're beautiful.
Red D: Oh my god.
El Platypo: Which, I mean, is awful, an awful thing to say, but also hysterically funny, as a way of showing us that this is an absolute tool bag of an omnipotent being.
Red D: I'm sorry.
Red D: Yes.
Red D: Yes, I mean, I'm definitely going to add in a couple of my own thoughts here, if that's okay. But no,
Jen: Yep.
El Platypo: ah So you you agree it's okay to talk to people that way?
Red D: I mean, I first thought, one of my thoughts is why is someone so omnipotent and in the future still so sexist?
El Platypo: Ed thinks it's okay to talk to people that way.
El Platypo: ah
Red D: But ah Yes, that's that like line was hilarious. But then when he's in her bedroom, in her bed, and then he was like, and then she like obviously jumps out of bed and gets her robe, but um he was like, you know something about how he finds her so interesting because she commands so much authority, but she hasn't lost her femininity.
El Platypo: Oh, yeah.
Red D: I honestly thought she was going to slap him because I wasn't like punch him.
El Platypo: Yeah. wow Yeah.
Jen: who ah Yeah.
Red D: I mean, but maybe it's also I mean, it's his character, right?
El Platypo: Hmm.
Red D: But that always seemed to be a concern in the 90s. Like, if you're powerful, but you still have to be feminine. It's like, why? I mean, I'm sorry.
El Platypo: Yeah, i'm I'm powerful and I'm not masculine.
Red D: I mean, yeah, I mean, it's just like, lot i thought it's and her delivery of that line, I believe, was very good.
Jen: yeah
El Platypo: Yeah.
Jen: ah There was so much of that, wasn't there, throughout the whole episode. of just um he he He is hilarious. like but It was a comic delivery genius, I think, from The Cube.
Red D: yes
Jen: but I also just really liked Janeway's reaction, because it was just this seething rage, this quiet um anger, which you can really empathise with.
El Platypo: Hmm.
Jen: It's pretty annoying if that stuff happens in real life. Imagine if the person doing it was like literally
El Platypo: yeah
Jen: There was nothing you could ever do because they're this omnipotent being.
El Platypo: yeah
Jen: but Your hands are pretty much tired, aren't they?
Red D: That's a very good point.
Jen: That must be very frustrating.
El Platypo: yeah I mean, I have two things that I'd love to i'll just talk or like to come back to about that scene, which I'll come back to at the end of mine.
Red D: Yeah.
El Platypo: But yes, I very much enjoyed that scene and how it was played.
Jen: Red, over to you.
Red D: Yes well I just have one very random maybe I'll combine two of them quickly um but the actor who plays the first cue who becomes called Quinn I believe at the end uh he always reminds me of my uncle so I'm always like ah but um
El Platypo: Yay.
El Platypo: Aww.
Jen: Oh.
El Platypo: Is your uncle omnipotent too?
Red D: No, but he's kind of cheeky and fun. Well, he was when I was young.
El Platypo: Aww.
Red D: was it ah But um I did love Neelix's only kind of little scene in the show when his typical reaction to finding out ah the initial cue is like doing all these magic tricks and like got Janeway in the canteen and he's like kind of just clicked his fingers and there's like this amazing meal on one of the tables and it's rabbit.
El Platypo: Aww.
Red D: I was like, reaction is like, rabbit?
El Platypo: No, it's Welsh rabbit, which is not actually rabbit.
Red D: I'm sorry, Welsh rabbit. Oh yes, sorry. And he's like, rabbit? She never told me she liked rabbit. I'm just such a classic Nelix reaction. Like, there's all this like, unexplainable stuff going on and people appearing and disappearing at will.
El Platypo: and
Red D: And he's just like, she never told me she liked rabbit.
El Platypo: But I love his le next line even more though.
Red D: Like, what is rabbit? Yeah.
El Platypo: It's what is rabbit after like, I should have known she liked rabbit.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: well
Red D: I don't know.
El Platypo: What is it?
Jen: And I liked his next line even more than that, his concern. Is she interviewing for another chef? yeah
Red D: So I just enjoyed that little moment.
Jen: He did pretty well considering he only had that one scene to make.
El Platypo: I mean, one on on that, though, like, I mean, if we can go to the sort of outcome of briefly of the trial, I think of all the things that Quinn could have done on the ship to experience life in this mortal coil, taking taking a line, taking a trick out of Guinan's book of actually being behind the bar or in the canteen would have been no bad way for him to do it.
Red D: ah Yeah, I guess we'll discuss that a bit more, but there's always food.
El Platypo: or drink a sexist cue sexist cue sexist cue sexist cue
Red D: Food or drink, yeah.
Jen: I'm gonna go to it from my point ah back a little bit just briefly just briefly guys to the whole um sexist cue kind of kind of theme um because yeah I mean I I assume the reason Red he is uh you know this futuristic um ah being in the future is still sexist, is in fact more to do with his character of of wanting to be annoying to everyone.
El Platypo: Yes, yes.
Jen: And the he's like, what's the most going to be the most annoying thing to a female captain?
Red D: Yes.
El Platypo: Hmm.
Jen: ah Maybe but that is. That's how I like to think of him.
Red D: No, that is a really good point because it's not like he treats anyone in a not annoying way.
El Platypo: Hmm.
Jen: Yeah, like you you make, I can't remember what I'm in next generation. he The way he annoys Riker is quite different if I remember correctly like insulting his um like beard and his manliness and things and Riker character is quite like I think sees himself as quite a masculine figure yeah so he knows how to get him and then he's just trying to rub everyone up the wrong way I guess but I gotta say like I just i I think he does it so well like it is perfectly infuriating so I think he does it brilliantly and also hilarious and my favorite one of them
El Platypo: ah sh Manly man.
Jen: and Well, aside from the fact that he calls a Madden captain and she sternly tells him never to do it again and then he just continues doing it all the way through.
Red D: Right till the end.
Jen: He's also the one where he's like, now we find out whether the pants and then he raises his eyebrow and sort of looks her up and down really fit.
El Platypo: and he mostly looks head down i mean his his delivery of that of so many lines was just
Jen: yeah Yeah, it's just, you can imagine it her being her in that situation. I'm just like, oh my goodness, rage.
El Platypo: exquisite both meaningful and comic all at the same time and people are coming no riddle started yeah funny beautiful charismatic
Red D: i but i'm sure i sorry too I mean, in - I'm sure I had a crush on him when I was like 13. Because ah when I watched this when I was - I mean, not like a serious crush, but like just like a - Because - Because he was just like, um, funny, I'm guessing.
Jen: Oh wow. Red, red.
Jen: I completely understand. i I have an embarrassing crush, also completely based on how funny they are. um And...
Red D: Jamie? No.
El Platypo: I mean, I love that, but ouch, you're a bad friend.
Jen: No.
Jen: No, I'm afraid...
Red D: I am saying that you're funny though. Sorry.
El Platypo: Yeah, I know.
Red D: jeny Very much.
Jen: Yeah, it's kind of a failed compliment.
El Platypo: You take with one hand, and you give half as much back with the other.
Jen: i'm
Jen: Now, just to be clear, this is not like, you know, I want to take him to bed or anything, but I
Red D: Oh, I think I know who you're going to say. Please continue.
Jen: as as, you know, a little bit in his lap.
Red D: Oh, no, no.
El Platypo: the
Red D: what Okay. Yes. But ah yeah, Yeah.
El Platypo: Oh my dang.
Jen: It's just because he's so hilarious and intelligent and you know, he has comes across something quite a struggle on the old side as well.
El Platypo: So would she would you rather be 20 % funnier or 5 % better looking?
Red D: 20 % funnier.
Jen: Definitely. Yeah.
El Platypo: Interesting.
Red D: And I saw the picture of Ian Hislop and his younger days recently. Why was that coming up? I don't know where I was sort.
El Platypo: It's bank bank.
Red D: Oh my gosh.
Jen: ah No, I don't think he was ever a, ah you know, model type. um
Red D: No, no, but it was just for, I mean, he kind of looked the same, just younger.
Jen: that's a
Red D: I don't know, I can't explain.
Jen: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's definitely to do with this sort of personality, at least the one he portrays. I mean, you never know what people like in real life, do you?
Red D: I mean, I haven't seen, um, like, is it time I got used to everything, like, in a while, but he also got, like, that kind of cheeky demeanor, I think.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: Um, I mean, you have to, to do that kind of role.
Jen: and
Jen: Jamie, you I think you didn't answer your own question. Would you be 20 % funnier or 5 % better -looking?
Red D: Oh, yeah.
El Platypo: I was just trying to show that I wasn't shallow by not engaging with it.
Jen: But you seem quite surprised when Red and I were like, definitely the funnier.
El Platypo: I mean, I don't think it would be possible to be funny at all.
Jen: OK.
Red D: ah
Jen: Well done.
El Platypo: Most people seem to have trouble not thinking of music clown as things are.
Jen: I'd answer.
Red D: oh
El Platypo: So maybe that wouldn't particularly be helpful. Some friends mine um friends of mine on this call made some unkind comments about me and being an outlier of an extreme earlier.
Red D: Who thinks of you as a clown? Why am I saying?
Red D: That said you were funny.
El Platypo: So, you know, close people. You know, they were like, you can't take you seriously because you, you know, go for humor and clown. And so I i think I'd have to go for the looks because I want to be taken seriously.
Jen: Well, Jamie.
Red D: Oh, but Jamie, I think if you get 5 % more attractive, then you'll go into, like, the Bumbo category.
El Platypo: I'm already a bimbo.
Red D: ah Okay, sorry, that i didn't mean to insult you again.
El Platypo: ah just keep coming up with the burns my goodness but may maybe maybe he says as though this has all been orchestrated and it's now his point round that can lead on to one of my points which is I would like to comment on the fact that not in terms of good or bad looks but just in terms of
Jen: Jamie.
Red D: The accidental burns.
El Platypo: What an incredible face to express the character Q has, because to me, I mean, the face and the way that he's made up in this look like the essence of the dilettante noble rake, like this figure that's had the nobility sort of drained from its face by life of excess, but still has that broken remnant in there, but also just completely jaded with life at the same time.
Red D: Oh, yes, 100%.
El Platypo: It's a wonderful, wonderful sort of counter to those moments where he's trying to play as though he you know has the straight bat and is the representative of the cue and believes in their vision of what they are as a species and cue values when he goes has lines like, I'm a born -again cue and things like that. And the face just sort of gives a little bit, just enough of a light, what he's saying to make him a plausible intermediary. And I love it. I think whether a lot of it was to do with the makeup as well, how he was made up and, but I mean, just the most expressed and expressive face for this, ah this role. Yeah.
Red D: like Agree.
Jen: I agree as well.
Red D: I'd like to... Yeah, ah what did you think about the makeup?
El Platypo: Although his lips are like weird blue black, which is weird.
Red D: Yeah, they were, hey.
Jen: Yeah, I, I, when I saw that, I thought, oh, well, I suppose that's in keeping, when I thought, I suppose that's in keeping with that first appearance in next gen, because you did have this eyeliner and sort of blue lips.
El Platypo: Is he it an extra from Dune?
Red D: Mm.
Jen: And actually, they've just toned it down a bit, because I think in next gen, it was bright blue.
Red D: Ah.
Jen: But then and then I was like, well, is this it? presumably it's a cue thing so I actively sort of looked for on the other cue on Quinn and he does have the slightly blue lips and the dark eye circles as well so I guess it's a cue thing.
Red D: Okay.
Jen: It's a really interesting makeup choice like I wonder why they chose that for the omnipotent being to have the dark eyes and the blue lips.
Red D: Well, eyeliner makes men look sexy, so I don't know if that's the wrong reason.
El Platypo: some of us manage it with not just what's on our face but apparently what's in our mouths with humor red with humor
Red D: But with humor, yes, well saved. But I mean, I guess like what you alluded to, it well, what you mentioned, Jenny, is like maybe in the I don't know when Next Generation came up, they went for quite a bold look for this thing, and then they had to find a way to maintain that kind of link, but for a more, at that time, modern audience.
Jen: Yeah, but tone. Yeah, just tone it down a bit. Yeah.
Red D: It's quite subtle, but it works for some reason.
Jen: Yeah, I do think that a lot of it is, as James said, like the, he's great at the facial expressions as well. Like, I think, you know, It's not all the makeup.
Red D: Oh yes.
Jen: um But Red, I would imagine so.
Red D: He must be like a fan favorite. I mean, I would maybe, I don't know if, yeah, he's so good.
Jen: I mean, especially as he, I mean, his character kept coming back, didn't it? Not just in next gen, but then through.
Red D: Yes.
Jen: and
Red D: Oh yes. There's a lot more to come.
Jen: Miss Red, over to you.
Red D: Okay.
El Platypo: Go, go, go.
Red D: Okay. Well, I guess at this point I had a question more than a, in a, ah and favorite But when we find out that Quinn, well, I think he's been locked up, locked up for 300 years.
Red D: Nevermind how ever long he's been alive for.
El Platypo: o
Red D: But I was like, would you like to be alive for 300 years or not?
El Platypo: Which 300 years and what age am I for the entire time?
Red D: Well, I think for the quick, like in keeping with the Star Trek, you would maintain like a middle age, let's say for the 300 years.
El Platypo: I don't know how I feel about middle age.
Red D: You are middle aged apparently. I mean, I know, wait, maybe you're not, but everyone keeps going, are you living until you're 75? So middle age is 31 or whatever.
El Platypo: I've got one on my right hand here, red, for you, and the other one here for what you just said.
Red D: I say middle age. I say middle age is 50 because we live to a hundred at least. That's my philosophy.
El Platypo: Yeah, I've seen my previous comment.
Jen: Are we, ah but so are we omnipotent in this scenario? Or are we just human?
Red D: No, this was just living for 300 years.
El Platypo: It gets a bit boring after, you know, 90 or so.
Jen: I feel like there has to be a lot of context questions, like are you, yeah, but what or if you um are living with like some really painful disease all that time?
Red D: Guys, I would live for 300 years, for sure. Not longer, I think, but 300 years, I'd be happy for.
Red D: Well, Janie, obviously that is not an element of this question, I would say.
Jen: Okay, okay, so we're healthy.
El Platypo: Well, this is why we need context.
Red D: You're not omnipotent, but you're in full health.
El Platypo: We need context.
Red D: You like reach 45 and you stay there for 300 years.
Jen: Okay.
El Platypo: here's Here's a philosophical question. Would you wanna live for 300 years, but what age you are is set and you don't actually get to know it before you are that age?
Red D: I just said 45.
El Platypo: And yeah, and you know nothing else about the circumstances, the period of history, everything like that.
Jen: company
Red D: No, let me guess, keep it simple. Like once you hit 45, your body doesn't age until you hit like 290 and then you get older and then you die.
El Platypo: yeah but you don't you and actually no no no but you don't know what age you're going to be number one so i'm changing the question haha i know and i'm making it more interesting
Jen: Yes, I mean,
Red D: That's my question.
Jen: like
Red D: So I rebuke you that.
Jen: yeah You've got to answer Red's question and then, you know.
Red D: I would live for 300 years. I think longer would be too much, but 300 years would be like a pretty interesting span of time for the amount of change that would happen.
Jen: Yeah, I mean, presumably it would, I mean, all the movies and all the TV shows suggest that really no one wants to live river.
El Platypo: this
Jen: But to me, it sounds pretty cool to have 300 years at 45.
Red D: Yes, not forever.
Jen: I mean, I do like 10 different degrees. I could do a degree in fine arts and astrophysics.
Red D: You could be the lawyer now.
Jen: I could be a lawyer for a bit. I could be, um you know, I could just do a lot of creative things. Maybe try and write some piano songs or I mean, yeah, it sounds great to me, but I mean.
El Platypo: yeah
Red D: Okay.
El Platypo: But then you then you watch all the people you know and like, sort of...
Red D: No, I think so 300.
El Platypo: Oh, are they?
Jen: Oh, well, that's great. That's even better.
Red D: Yeah.
El Platypo: So now I feel about other people getting to get 300 when I...
Red D: Okay.
Jen: So Jamie, what about you?
Red D: Let's... Yeah.
Jen: but Yes, I would flip the 300 order.
El Platypo: No.
Jen: Why?
Red D: Yeah, why?
El Platypo: Oh, sorry, I didn't... I thought you were saying, oh, not why.
Jen: Oh.
El Platypo: um
El Platypo: I mean, you lose loads of friends. um You can get stuck in an awfully bad loss of situations, aging to 300, like, you know, medical experiments for folks who want to find out what you actually have in you that makes you live up to 300.
Jen: just Just think how good you'd be at sculling.
El Platypo: I just think it might get a bit onnui filled.
Red D: What did you say, Jenny?
Jen: I said, just think how good you'd be at sculling, Jamie. 300 years practice.
Red D: Oh, yeah.
El Platypo: Well, this is a thing. I think it would leech the joy out of those things, actually.
Jen: Well, I mean, I guess what that's what this episode is, the character in this episode is saying.
El Platypo: Hmm.
Jen: So, I mean, you don't know, it might. you might
El Platypo: Yeah.
Red D: I think I am. I'm with Jenny. You're right. It's time to like learn so many different things.
El Platypo: Hmm.
Jen: Yeah that's the thing I think, I mean I guess if you're just doing the same thing, I mean that's a form of torture isn't it, having to repeat the same thing over and over again and um you know you hear these war stories about people having to like dig dig graves and then fill them in and then dig them again repeatedly but never ending and and so you know but I guess it's what you do with the time though isn't it because if you're like
El Platypo: Hmm, exactly, yeah.
El Platypo: This is why Rose and such tortured souls.
El Platypo: Hmm.
El Platypo: Hmm.
Jen: learning all these different things. I mean there's a never -ending supply of books to read, even if that's all you do, you you just read.
El Platypo: Yeah.
Jen: um But there's been other things you can do and try.
Red D: And I just realized maybe 300 years would be enough time to get my life on track.
El Platypo: Yeah.
Jen: Just about enough, yeah. And if you had kids you could watch, it you could see your grandkids grow up and even maybe your great great grandkids.
El Platypo: yeah
Red D: Your great grandkids.
El Platypo: You could master arts hitherto unknown.
Red D: Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to turn into one of those irritating people. They're trying to fight mortality and be young forever, but if we had a choice.
El Platypo: Yeah, those people who want to be in cryotubes at, you know, age 40.
Red D: ah
Jen: ah Oh go my god.
Red D: But yeah, so that was my point slash question.
El Platypo: Interesting.
Jen: Okay.
El Platypo: to
Jen: Well, what do I have on my list here? Let me see.
Jen: Just on the more serious side, obviously there was this like big question in this episode around suicide ah and a lot of the arguments for and against.
El Platypo: Hmm. Hmm.
Jen: I have heard before. But there was one I actually hadn't really considered, so I was like, oh, that's an interesting one. and I think it was when Quinn, well, I think it was Quinn who mentioned it, I'm not sure, but they were talking about in scenarios where suicide is illegal, talking about that situation being that the individual has rights, but only so long as they don't conflict with the state.
Red D: Mm.
Jen: ah which is we know which obviously doesn't sound right because you know the point of human rights is that the human rights, you can't just take them away just because they don't suit your government of the day.
Jen: And I thought that was quite a good argument. not Not that I'm saying for or against, but it was just one of the arguments on one of the sides which I hadn't really considered before.
El Platypo: ah it It was actually the argument that was the very first politics lecture I ever had on exactly that and based around
Jen: Interesting.
Jen: Oh!
El Platypo: An essay by Isaiah Berlin called on positive and negative liberty, basically around that freedom to and that freedom from. um And actually that conflict is never fully reconciled.
Red D: Yeah, it did sound like a very, it was very eloquently put, I guess, in that in the argument at that I mean, in the Star Trek episode, not in that philosophical paper that you just cited.
El Platypo: Yes. Yeah.
El Platypo: I mean, it is very eloquently put by us over Lynn as well, but yeah.
Red D: so but Yeah.
El Platypo: for
Jen: i I do often, I got the impression watching this episode and lots of other like philosophical Star Trek and episodes that are similar to this. that kind of things they're portraying are probably if anyone like listening to us has done any kind of even basic um you know A level which is the equivalent of the exams you do um that's sort of 18 19 but really like basic um education in like philosophy and ethics these are probably like you know philosophy 101 entry level kind of things um but uh interesting to me i didn't really study any kind of ethics or philosophy so
El Platypo: entry level.
Red D: Yeah, but they...
El Platypo: Agreed.
Red D: What's that?
El Platypo: I find them interesting.
Red D: Yeah, but also, I mean, it's like they, I mean, we don't have, yeah, we don't have to like go into and like the politics side of things, but they they, I mean, that's the point is that they're addressing um issues that are being raised at the time, but on Star Trek and reflecting them back, I guess, or debating them in a way that's kind of less emotive because it's not here on earth.
El Platypo: They popularise philosophy.
El Platypo: Don't we?
Jen: Oh.
Red D: um And
El Platypo: By definition.
Red D: Um, but yeah, and I don't think, I mean, I think there's smart people writing these episodes or people that have thought a lot about some things or do the research. And actually that reminds me is that very sadly, Jerry Taylor passed away.
Red D: I think the last, since the last time we recorded and she was like one of the executive producers and writers of Voyager and wrote lots of the episodes and informed a lot of, um, captain Janeway.
El Platypo: o What? Wait, Jerry Taylor?
Red D: Yeah. You'll see her name on the screen all the time. Um, But yeah, she passed away in the last few weeks.
El Platypo: Oh, sorry. Yeah, oh, that's really sad.
Jen: yeah
Red D: I meant to mention that, but it wasn't really a one cool thing, but it was a notable thing.
Jen: No, no.
El Platypo: I mean, I actually thought when you started with Jerry, you were going to give it Jerry Ryan.
Red D: No, no, she's still alive and sexy, don't worry.
El Platypo: Excuse me. Some of us are not shallow in that way.
Jen: I think Red was directing that at me because I think she's hot as hell.
El Platypo: oh wow
Red D: I mean, she is, maybe I was directing it myself, I don't know. But yes, yeah.
Jen: I've lost all train of thought, redfish.
Red D: um Sorry, sorry, back to the core issue.
Jen: Just put Jerry Ryan into my mind.
El Platypo: yeah cant to back to
Jen: And I can't even remember what I was talking about. ah No, I think that was my second niche point. So I think possibly back to you, Jay.
El Platypo: i mean me almost Paralleling your point around the individual versus state rights, or those fireworks I can hear, I just found the differing ways to rebel fascinating between Q's angry capriciousness and Q who becomes Quinn's simple nonconformance, and they're both so different in their attitude and how they perform their rebellion that it becomes quite a revelation
Red D: right um
El Platypo: over the course of the episode that Quinn was actually inspired by Q given the differing flavour of their behaviours.
Red D: Oh, sorry, Ami.
El Platypo: Q messing with the destinies of races and Riker and Picard and the Borg for fun and Quinn simply deciding that he didn't want to be part of society in a far more simple and understated way, but one which threatens to disrupt Q's society and the Q continuum, on a level in which Q, at the height of his capriciousness, would have died to emulate. So I found ah found that a really interesting parallel and almost send up. I don't know how you reacted to it.
Jen: Yeah, I mean, I agree. I thought that was a nice touch where, you know, the Quinn revealed to the queue that um he was kind of an inspiration to him, that he was doing things which were against the rules of the queue and doing things differently because he felt like the queue was stuck in a rut and needed change.
Jen: And then of course it was Q who gave him the Hemlock command.
Red D: Oh, yes.
El Platypo: and a slightly suspicious voice of Tuvok asking whether the doctor kept that sort of hempok round. Only added to the mystery, 4Q appeared, grinning his twinkly little twinkle.
Red D: But yes, I definitely agree. Definitely added some more depth, I guess, to that dynamic and conflict and relationship between the two cues.
El Platypo: Mmm.
Jen: Over to you Red.
Red D: Well, now I wonder if I should skip a couple of questions or stick to maybe two moments that I really enjoyed. I'll just combine them.
El Platypo: Yeah, give us the ones that flow, flow with it Red, flow with it.
Red D: No, I'm going to stick to my orders. Sorry, Jamie. I did love it, Wayna.
El Platypo: Well, I'm going to emulate you and say that you are more boring than a fart in a tailor shop.
Jen: but
Jen: I did not hear that line.
Red D: Well, I was...
El Platypo: Eh?
Jen: Nothing. Go to it.
Red D: Uh, no, I just to, yeah, he probably would say that to me.
El Platypo: And I bet you wouldn't have had the chance.
Red D: Um, I did love the moment where Quinn tries to commit suicide and all the men on, um, where did you disappear? And Blahn is like, all the men have disappeared.
Red D: Um, and it was just kind of funny because it leads to a bit more, I guess.
El Platypo: Her panic in her voice.
Red D: Well, a bit more like when Q, second Q comes on board, the men haven't been restored. So he's like, thinks this is like a female only ship, but also when the men are returned, I did love Two Box reaction. It was pretty, the most genuine of reactions of like, just the acting, I guess, was really good.
El Platypo: ah was he Did he just sort of raise an eyebrow and continue with what he did?
Red D: No, he actually looked quite ah perturbed, which is unusual for him. So, and then I did love it when First Cute was trying to hide Voyager from Second Cute, and they went through that series of ever more ridiculous hiding places.
Red D: So they go back to the Big Bang, I guess. um And then they, um I just wrote, honey, I shrunk the ship because they become smaller than protons, which are attacking them.
Red D: And finally, they have a Christmas decoration on a Christmas tree, which I just thought was hilarious.
El Platypo: I know, so cute.
Red D: And they can see, um but they busted by Q2, who finds them on the tree, I guess.
El Platypo: Oh, cute little deer.
Red D: The QE2. Yes, I just, I, It was good comedy for me in those moments.
Jen: Yeah.
El Platypo: As a fiction, I mean, just prompted by your talk with the dancing across time and space, how do we feel Q would fare against Doctor Who?
Red D: I'm lucky I can't say anything about this because I've never watched Octave.
Jen: Well, I mean, to me, um it would be an obvious cue, because they're an omnipotent being. I mean, is Doctor Who omnipotent?
El Platypo: Well, remember, Quinn says, never think we're omnipotent.
Jen: I don't think they are.
Red D: That's a
Jen: It does say something like that, doesn't it? But then in other episodes, I think they say they do they are an omnipotent.
El Platypo: hopefully inconvenient.
Jen: I mean mean, it is a just, what do they call it? A discontinuity.
El Platypo: Disingenuous?
Jen: Now you know in shows where they, there's a, continuity error or something. I feel like they do say they're omnipotent in extent, but maybe I'm imagining it. But you're right.
Jen: No, I remember that cue says something along lines of um they they're omnipotent as humans understand it, but not, I don't know.
Jen: I can't remember.
Red D: He does say something about like how maybe they just have like better technology or something or compares their omnipotence to like.
Jen: Anyway.
El Platypo: Yeah, do we ever find out where the Q's power comes from?
Red D: Well, that was like one of my next questions, so I might say that, but and I'm like, what is the cue and what is the continuum?
El Platypo: Ah.
El Platypo: What is a continuum?
Red D: Yeah, what is the continuum and what are cues?
Jen: Yeah, I mean, I did have that down. I'll do only my next point, Red, because that is relevant. I thought the depiction of the continuum was quite good, because it from the sort of gist that you get from what the continuum is from other episodes from Next Gen, it would be incredibly hard to depict.
El Platypo: Hmm.
Jen: And they've said before, I think, that humans wouldn't be able to come to the continuum as such um because it's not in the, I don't know, realm of understanding or it's not they're not capable of it.
El Platypo: Realm of perception. Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, so I quite liked the way they chose to symbolise it with the road and the...
El Platypo: that goes to the universe and then back again, but not to anything else.
Jen: Yeah, and then, you know, when when they first show you it, you think, well, this is a crap depiction, it's just a road and a house with some people in it, but then when
El Platypo: a
Jen: the Quinn guy starts to explain it.
El Platypo: yeah
Jen: And then you sort of see the looks on the characters' faces.
El Platypo: yeah
Jen: um I think they did a good job with a very difficult task.
El Platypo: but i I absolutely love the interaction between the two actors as they're debating on whether they show the crew of Voyager the continuum in the terms that we ultimately end up seeing it.
Red D: Yeah, because I guess they're implying that humans, they had to figure out a way for humans to be able to comprehend it.
El Platypo: and To experience.
Red D: And I think this was, this was a good episode to kind of like rewatch, because I'm sure when I was 13, I was like, what is this dusty town I don't understand?
Jen: this is the
Red D: But I agree, Jenny. It was like, thus as an owl, you're like, that seems like a nightmare.
Jen: yeah Yeah, because that's the thing at that point. They're trying to, I think by that point, Janeway said, what I'm trying to decide here is not whether suicide should be allowed, but whether to grant you asylum.
Jen: And ah she's she said something earlier about, are we going to take like, I don't know, the Bolian principle of um we can only grant you asylum if we can prove that you're suffering. So then it becomes all about
El Platypo: Yeah.
Jen: the nature of suffering and is he suffering.
El Platypo: Yeah.
Jen: He's not suffering from a disease or from pain so but yeah is he suffering from I think he says unendurable existence and you sort of I feel like you do get kind of sense of it from that
El Platypo: Buying closure.
El Platypo: Yeah.
El Platypo: I do love the circularity of the argument that Q brings to the question of whether he's insane, saying he wants to kill himself. Clearly he must be insane. No sane person would want to kill himself.
Jen: Yeah but i like I like the evidence that the rebuttal that that can't be the only thing because that in itself and in and of itself I think she says is not evidence of insanity.
El Platypo: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jen: Anyway over to you Jay.
El Platypo: Oh gosh. So I actually so think that one of my favourite things throughout the entire episode is maybe maybe I said the Vulcans or maybe just two Vulcans. Absolute refusal to be ruffled by Q's prancing in and out.
El Platypo: Any time a cue appears, all the 2 -Voc does is just raise a quizzical eyebrow and continue with what he's doing. So when Quinn magically appears like BAM in his courses through a locked door to ask him to represent him, he just raises an eyebrow and responds, I am curious. Do all cues lack manners?
El Platypo: or if they simply out -evolved them, words to that effect, as not necessarily ah an insult, but a genuine question, um it strikes me as an immensely elegant challenge, but also one that must resonate with the viewer as they consider the situation Q finds himself in of having existed so long, he's almost had the need for these niceties burnt out of him by time's passage.
Jen: Bye.
Red D: Yeah, I mean, I also had to note that down because ah kind of tying back to what we said about the Q2, his ah blatant sexism and trying to annoy people, ah regardless of sex, actually, sorry about the fireworks.
Red D: um but ah ah okay But I,
El Platypo: ah hear none I I had for the word sex.
Red D: too much actually asked a question that I was thinking in my head, basically up at until that point was like, they just have, they have, Why are they so annoying basically? Or why is Q so annoying?
Red D: And is it because you've been alive for so long, you just are so superior to everyone else. You don't have time for those niceties. What what is happening there? That's always maybe here normally.
El Platypo: listen
Red D: I don't know, but yeah you're right. It resonated because I mean, I was wondering that exact same thing, not as eloquently as Tupac, but yeah.
Jen: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because i when i was I was thinking along the same lines and in relation to sort of Q's, annoying, comedic sexism, I was a little bit like, and obviously he's just saying slightly sexist, annoying comments and ah it's kind of funny.
El Platypo: Hmm. Hmm.
Jen: But he's obviously, there's also seems to be a, what's the word, like a limit on it as well. So they they've evolved to be sort of mildly annoying and and they've got no politeness but they haven't that they haven't they don't take it so far as for him to be like you know sexually harassing Jamie but like in you know all abusing her or you know I mean like it's it's a weird
Red D: Maybe it's, yeah, maybe it's just a bit to do with like the aging process. Cause you know, like when I was 18, I don't know, I was like socialism, communism, great. These sound like great systems.
Red D: and Now I'm like, that's ridiculous Natalie. I don't know. I would just dismiss that. out of I mean, not, you know, I'm just like broadly giving an example, but, um, maybe they just stopped taking things seriously.
Red D: I don't know. So seriously.
Jen: That's funny because I go the other way. I was really, I was quite right wing when I was younger. but I'm more of a so social Democrat these days now.
Red D: Yeah, I mean, I'm just saying that, umm well, yeah, maybe socialism is in the right way, but communism, for sure. But I
Jen: I guess we shouldn't say that on this should be because we're my alienates and people and especially
Red D: don't think it was a huge communist population.
El Platypo: Good. I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member.
Jen: but
Red D: Yeah, I'm just saying, like, but for different people, it'll be different things. for Like, for me, it might have been like, oh, yeah, I probably need to get around to that, blah, blah, blah. No, I'm like, oh, that would never work. I'm not gonna spend time worrying about it.
Red D: um
Jen: They've become more brusque as they've aged ah hundreds of thousands of years.
Red D: Yes, yes, yes.
El Platypo: yeah
Red D: Or you're just like, okay, yes, you're going to have to go without a face -up, but when you get a job and start wanting things, you're going to land up just like me, don't worry.
Jen: but
Jen: and Okay. Who, I didn't, was that, I've forgotten, who did the last point?
Red D: That was Jane's point, I think.
El Platypo: That was mine. We started with Q's prancing into Vulcans and we ended up with, I don't know, an attempt to evade politics.
Jen: Okay.
Jen: Politics, oh no.
Red D: Natalie denouncing communism. ah
El Platypo: No one say the B word.
Jen: but
El Platypo: Everything's gone to shit, but no one say it.
Jen: Go
Red D: Well, I am ready with my next point, if that helps.
El Platypo: I want to be trolled by trolls.
Jen: for it.
Red D: Well, you're about to be trolled hard, sorry Jamie, but I would like to nominate the most Jamie moments of the episode when Q is in the hearing and he wants to call a witness to the stand and he says, I call myself to the stand.
El Platypo: o
Red D: And the way he did it reminded me so much of you, Jamie.
Jen: and
El Platypo: I would like to gather that most daily moment comes shortly after.
Red D: and Wait, before you get
Red D: I just, before you get upset with me, I've always got the impression that you really like this character, so I think that's what planted this seed in my head, maybe if I didn't already think that.
El Platypo: Right, I've never been as offended in my entire life as when you said the last few minutes of compensation, so I can't imagine how you think you're getting out of jail on the basis of that. No, I think the most Jamie moment actually comes when he says, it's a rare pleasure to entertain a guest of such refinement and knowledge on a topic.
Red D: That's just true. who
El Platypo: I yield the floor to myself. I actually prefer that as an expression of Jamie.
Red D: No, there was something about the way his actions as well when he said, I'll call myself to the stand or something that bray reminded me of me.
El Platypo: Yes.
El Platypo: turn
Jen: There's definitely something about the delivery of that, I agree, Red. I think oh it's a little bit, Jamie, when you're, you quite often tell jokes where there's a punchline and you're very, I would say good, but dramatic about the delivery of it.
Jen: So you sort of build it up in that dramatic way and then you leave the pause and then you come in and here is Q. And so that element, I can, I can see this. I think you should take it as a compliment.
Jen: Q is hilarious and an amazing act.
El Platypo: I do, I do.
Red D: Yes!
El Platypo: Did you see me being offended apart from when I told I read that I was offended in a culy clearly not serious way?
Red D: Yeah.
Red D: You did.
El Platypo: But I'm going to maintain the pretense of offense. It's useful.
Red D: I mean it's not meant, it's only meant as a compliment while there's a better way, but I just, that moment really reminds me of you.
El Platypo: With elections.
Jen: Well, I am on to my final point, I think, which is, I can't, it's a really basic one, but, you know, my love of Janeway, well, this is another love ah loving Janeway woman.
El Platypo: Marvelous. Hmm.
Jen: I just really thought she did an excellent job of delivering just this one line, is when when basically Quinn has, she decided that Quinn can become mortal, and he's been given mortality, um so now,
Jen: you know presumably he's going to kill himself but she wants to try and you know persuade him not to so she talks about you know now you're mortal maybe um you might want to reconsider you could you could experience what it's like living in a mortal body you've never done that before that's new and you might get different experience anyway and she's like she's really trying so earnestly to convince him and she says i like this life cue and it's just the way she says those five words and you know it looks like she has such tears in her eyes and emotion and I just think it's an excellent little delivery of a five word sentence.
El Platypo: It's so lovely.
Red D: Yeah, it's very good. It's very good. And I think, I mean, you kind of already mentioned her her like seething anger or or, but overall, I mean, she just played, I mean, she did such a good job, um, reacting to Q and like all, although her, I dunno, reactions were spot on and her, well, I thought, um, but that moment was, yeah, I really hoped he would absorb that message, but I guess he had experienced everything.
El Platypo: yeah
El Platypo: but
El Platypo: yes i mean i no i disagree i i think this is the one moment of the entire episode that the rice has got wrong because
Red D: Mm.
El Platypo: he has experienced everything but for a creature who clearly is a member of a race who are experienced gourmet's it doesn't ring true to me that he would pass up on the opportunity of exploring a new galaxy of experiences as immortal it just doesn't ring true given that the absence of
Jen: Thank you.
El Platypo: potential new experiences is what drives him to the point of wanting to take his life. I know they got that one wrong in an absolutely otherwise pitch -perfect Exquisite episode.
Red D: But don't you think he would have experienced, every time he left on that road to go to the universe and then came back, he had all these...
El Platypo: Now, because experiencing something immortal omnipotently is entirely different to experiencing notson nixon and not
Jen: I do. <unk> got I was say that I do completely understand the argument.
El Platypo: the
Red D: go ahead Jenny.
Jen: And I think Jamie made a good, ah you know, good argue um and in favor of that.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: um But it did ring true to me just because although obviously it's different, it would be a different experience being mortal if you've been in um immortal forever.
El Platypo: Mmm.
Jen: um Because he's also, well, I'm still going on the basis that they're basically ah omnipotent, right? And if you were, um
El Platypo: But he he wasn't autistic.
Jen: he he He would already know what it's like because they're omnipotence. They know what it's like to be human. They know what it's like to be every kind of species, like a fish and a flea. And they know everything, you know.
El Platypo: and no because they disagree because they clearly don't have full sight of the future otherwise Q would have known what would happen when this situation arose and by very definition to be human is to not be omnipotent and to have that element of risk and of finiteness to your day -to -day interactions I just think
Jen: So. ah
El Platypo: would revealed it a completely different experience set, one which he hadn't had the chance to have.
Jen: Hmm.
El Platypo: So I i think they get it wrong, this that one piece of the entire episode. As much as it's important that the entire thing that he do be to kill himself, I think it actually would have added a fascinating dynamic having someone who theoretically knew everything, but couldn't do anything as part of their team.
El Platypo: I think he could have been a new Neelix character.
Red D: yeah I think, yeah, I mean, I think I see it from both sides and depending on maybe when I watched it, whatever I could see, but I think from like a TV writing perspective, if I may say that, it would have been like a bit of a, I don't know what's the right way of putting it, to have this whole thing about him being able to decide whether he could die or not, and then not letting him get to choose, would have been quite a week, it would have like weakened the whole argument of the whole
El Platypo: Well, I think it does.
Red D: request was asylum and I mean I'm not yeah it
El Platypo: I think it already does.
Jen: I guess he would have still been choosing, wouldn't he? but choosing
Red D: would have been a bit it would have like I think really been a like too sweet ending for that show for that episode
Jen: Yeah, I agree. I quite like the way it ended, even though obviously it's sad. And also, so for me, a part of what Quinn was trying to do was to um do something to like shake up the continuum to change it you know, try stuff that's...
El Platypo: Hmm.
Jen: they've basically said at the start of the episode that um they've lost the ability to to grow and learn and develop because they haven't done that in centuries, yawns, because nothing ever changes.
El Platypo: and
Jen: And what Quinn liked about Q was that he was being some kind of disruption because he wasn't obeying the rules. Everyone's followed for thousands of years so Quinn wasn't obeying them either by killing himself and that's You know, because that was that his sort of last, his hilarious trying to give meaningful last words, ah sort of saying, this is my present, the continuum, my death.
El Platypo: Yeah. yeah
Red D: And I just want to say from a personal perspective, I would have loved him to have a nice life as a human being.
El Platypo: Hmm, yeah.
Red D: But I just i was just saying purely from a TV writing perspective, it just makes it a bit more, it's not really, it doesn't reach the level of shocking, but stronger, I think in a sense.
Jen: Yeah.
El Platypo: Hmm.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: not They don't check it out, I guess, out of the final, because it's like, okay, well, he fought for asylum, but he gets to choose to, he chose to live.
El Platypo: Yeah.
El Platypo: Hmm.
Red D: So it's a happy ending. It's not really a happy ending, which I guess is kind of, well, it can be interpreted in various ways.
Jen: Yeah, I do think though, um your your argument, Jade, like that definitely, it crossed my mind as well. I was like, you know, Jane really argued so um well, you know, you're now you're mortal and, you know, it's going to be a completely new existence to being immortal. ah I think on balance, like I quite like the ending they chose.
Red D: Yeah, again, on a personal level, I think he's missing out.
El Platypo: Yeah, and that's why I think that it doesn't ring true.
Jen: yeah
El Platypo: It's been starved, starved for 30 decades.
Red D: Yeah, I see a point, yeah.
Jen: So red, I think. Next.
Red D: Oh, yes. So I think um maybe just some areas around the legal side of things, not really, but I'll just lump these two together. But um we saw Tuvok and Janeway upholding their belief system, are very strongly I guess.
Red D: But um when we find out that Tuboc actually doesn't agree with Quinn and his biological suicide, but he's still doing his best to act as his lawyer.
El Platypo: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.
Red D: um I mean, I don't know if people often feel like this, but every now and again you hear people being like, how can you defend that person or whatever? I'm like, that's their job.
El Platypo: but
Red D: If lawyers start being able to choose who they can
El Platypo: Yeah.
Red D: You know, like, you know, like that would be a very slippery slope to go down. I think personally, cause I already liked, no, sorry.
El Platypo: And also click
Red D: It's just his, um,
El Platypo: No, no, I was going to say in riffing off you, ah hu the way in which Quinn reacts to Tuvok saying that and surprising him and the appreciation that he has for being surprised and something, that to me reinforces my position of he should have tried mortal life and it doesn't read through.
Red D: yes.
Red D: He would have been surprised again if he had given it to us.
El Platypo: Yeah.
Red D: That's true. Um, so I really liked, yeah, I mean, obviously too awkward would be like that, but it was just interesting to throw that in and realize that, oh, he actually completely disagrees with this, but he is doing a really good job of, um, you know, putting forward his case.
El Platypo: yeah
El Platypo: Yeah.
Red D: And then also when Q2 tries to bribe Janeway with a shortcut back to Earth. I was like, that's never going to work on her, you idiot.
Jen: there
Red D: But you know, um,
Jen: no.
Red D: What do you say as an incentive for making the right decision or something?
El Platypo: I need to use that line.
Jen: ah Please don't!
Red D: Jamie's like, writing that down for the next meeting.
Jen: Oh my gosh! Oh no!
El Platypo: Here's an incentive to make the right decision.
Jen: Jamie, you're gonna go to jail!
El Platypo: I'll restructure you Yeah,
Jen: Yeah, I mean, I like that um Q says, I mean, I told the continuum that wouldn't work.
Red D: Oh, good.
Jen: Like, he knows, like, obviously she's not going to take a bribe. But his second offer of saying, okay, but bear this in mind, to help your decision, we won't send him back to that.
Jen: awful condition in prison. um I'm like, well, I mean, yeah that's ah that that would add that you'd certainly take that into account, wouldn't you, in your deliberations?
El Platypo: yeah
El Platypo: Mm -hmm.
Red D: That was interesting. and so i was I wasn't quite sure how, I'm not really good at, I don't know, I don't know if it's negotiation, but yes, it was interesting the way he approached like trying to get what he wanted.
Red D: First was to offer her Earth, knowing that she wanted to know that she just wasn't gonna send him back to this horrible situation. Then when they moved beyond that, he gives her what she actually wanted. Now she's kind of moved on from that.
Red D: Anyway, I just thought it was interesting, but I thought, I'm like, you're playing a bit dirty now, Q.
Jen: Yeah.
El Platypo: and
El Platypo: I mean, that's that's his calling card.
Jen: It's very in character.
Red D: Yes, yeah.
Jen: I agree about the T -VOC. I thought T -VOC was great in this as well, like, I love that, you know, the way Quinn asks him to represent him and he goes through the logic of it, like, well, you know, I don't have any legal training.
El Platypo: Yeah.
Jen: um You know, it doesn't make any sense. but then Quinn just boils it down to you, but I'm asking you. And at the and end of the day, then presumably Tuvok is going to say yes, regardless of how logical it is, because to him, it's logical that he does his duty.
El Platypo: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: um Someone has asked him to represent them.
El Platypo: Hmm.
Jen: And so he's going to say yes, regardless of whether he agrees with them or whether he thinks he's the best person, um because it's, I guess,
El Platypo: Hmm.
El Platypo: Yeah.
Jen: He feels it's his future to do so. I don't know what you guys thought about that.
Red D: Yeah, I mean, he puts his his role, his duty above his own personal opinion. And I liked his line when they were kind of in a canteen in January, and he was like, yeah, we still haven't persuaded the captain Like he was really taking his role very seriously, like, um, and the role of persuading Jane Wayne.
Red D: I didn't explain, I don't remember that line well enough to quote it, but, um, I just, I don't know, for me, that moment reinforced that he was doing the, like, he was really serious about doing the best that he could.
El Platypo: No,
Red D: And he was actually convinced that they would be able to persuade her eventually. Um, that's kind of the impression I got.
Red D: But, you know,
Jen: So I, go
Red D: I'll just say this is like, I guess this is where I learned all my rules of society and stuff from. And then in a real society, this is not really how it works. I'm like, when people are like, oh, that lawyer shouldn't have defended that person.
El Platypo: no.
Red D: I'm like, I'm so confused. Why are you saying that? In this episode of Star Trek, two completely disagree that this guy should be able to come commit suicide, but he defended about him anyway.
Jen: but
Jen: but Yeah, absolutely. I think in real life, I understand that for some lawyers as well, it's a case of they've been the way they've been educated as a lawyer is to um and powers them and what drives them is to win and an argument.
Jen: and And the harder that argument is to win, the more and the all they enjoy it.
Red D: Yes, yes, yeah.
Jen: you know That's their passion, this winning hard arguments. And therefore, some of them would probably actively seek out to argue against things that they um they actually don't agree with, you know, but I'll do.
Red D: Yes, but if you also, if you somehow mistakenly get accused of a crime, you want someone who will defend you as the best of their ability as well. I mean, oh but yes, I think there is an element of just like being smart enough to outsmart the like charges or something.
Jen: Absolutely.
Red D: Yeah, like and unpack the problem.
Jen: Yeah, I don't have any points left, so I'm gonna have to go. ah I mean, how many of you guys have left?
Red D: I'm done.
El Platypo: I have one. I have one point.
Red D: yeah
Jen: Oh, well then we will end with Jamie.
El Platypo: And I'd like to lighten the mood. I would like to riff off the moment in which Q makes his offer. But instead of focusing on the offer, could we just talk about what appears to be typical Star Trek skipper and intruder wear?
El Platypo: Can I just point out, like, what the hell is A, that unbelievably sexy night dress January appears to be wearing? like completely impractical to sleep in, full length silk and And B, what the hell does Q think he's up to, trying to seduce her wearing a massive sock on his head?
Red D: What was Was he dressed in like old -fashioned pajamas or something?
Jen: Hahaha!
El Platypo: Is that meant to be like a phallic symbol for a condom or something? because like Yeah, yeah, old fashioned nightgown and and night sock on his head.
Red D: I need to rewatch that because to be fair I was so taken by Jamie's pajamas which I think
El Platypo: ah Like completely undermined the sexuality of his natural charisma.
Jen: ah
El Platypo: See, it wasn't just me that noticed them.
Red D: I think this is like a more like a but maybe not a maturity thing or a age thing, but like, yes, in the past I was like, what is she wearing? Why isn't she just like instead of issue gray onesie or something?
Jen: yeah
Red D: Like that's what I'm imagining.
El Platypo: i presumably because the ones he was issued to the ah the ship cats for reasons.
Red D: But now, yeah. Now I'm like, appreciate a quality nighttime outfit. And actually I once, yeah, a nightie can be very comfortable.
Jen: well i mean yeah isn't silk supposed to be
Red D: I've never had one like that.
El Platypo: and She's not wearing a 90, she's wearing a full length dress.
Red D: Yes.
Jen: I think it is a 90, but ah it's very...
El Platypo: i'm mean
Jen: I think it's beautiful.
Red D: It is beautiful.
Jen: ah I wouldn't wear it in bed, but, you know...
El Platypo: I'm going to see if I can Google this without getting NSFW.
Red D: i I didn't actually listen to the corresponding Delta Flies episode this week, but I have a feeling from listening to it like four years ago that they also freaked out about a pajamas.
Jen: I mean, I think she looks crab, but yeah, I mean, it's not not my standard nightwear.
Red D: yeah she does she does look great and every now and again i once had this what was really comfortable and not not sexy at all but it was like white thick cotton like nighty like long sleeve down to the floor like i don't know if you remember a little bit like in mo when marshall wears like that night dress um in how i met your mother like it's weird how like something so full length and like with so much fabric out of it it's actually really comfortable
Jen: Oh yeah.
Jen: Well this is the thing, I feel like I can't judge Jamie too harshly for wearing that lightie because in fact have I ever actually worn something like that to bed?
El Platypo: I'm not judging her harshly. I am not judging her harshly.
Jen: Maybe they're really comfortable.
El Platypo: Or indeed negatively.
Jen: You never know. but Jamie I think you should wear something like that to bed first and then you can tell us.
El Platypo: You want me to wear Janeway's outfit?
Jen: Yeah to bed and then you can tell us if it's comfy.
El Platypo: You buy me Janeway's outfit and I'll wear it.
Red D: And don't send me the pictures, is all I'm saying.
El Platypo: And if you want me to, I will send her other pictures because she clearly needs to be more comfortable with transvesticism if she worries about me wearing Janeway's outfit.
Red D: ah
Red D: No, it's not that. It's just that, you know...
El Platypo: Oh, so it's me, is it? It's me?
Red D: No!
El Platypo: Oh, I... Right, fine. I thought you were a sexist. Actually, it's you hate your friend.
Red D: I'm just not that positive, that's what it's about.
El Platypo: How you wound me.
El Platypo: So?
Red D: I'm not that sex positive. I don't want to know about what happens in your bedroom.
El Platypo: I'm not sexual in a nightgown, I'm just resting. Why are you objectifying me, you dreadful, you know, pigs?
Red D: I apologize again.
Jen: is it I feel like it's a good time to move on to themes.
Red D: Very good.
Jen: Although I know I am the only person who's written down themes this week.
El Platypo: Sexism.
Jen: just um they To be fair, I don't usually write them down to be honest.
Red D: Yes, I have, I'll pick a theme, but I didn't write it
El Platypo: I'll pick one too.
Jen: I just clearly was feeling very organised today. ah And I think we've discussed the one that anyone's already that I put down, which is like the nature of suffering and whether living too long.
Jen: is actually for torture. um And, you know, the rights of the individual versus the state.
El Platypo: Yeah.
Jen: There's one.
Red D: Sorry, Jenny, can you just rip repeat that a little bit because I just heard, sorry, Jamie's chair thing moving, sorry.
Jen: Anyone else?
El Platypo: Sorry.
Jen: Oh, um but I was just saying that my two themes I've written, we've probably already covered basically just the nature of suffering.
Red D: I didn't catch it.
Jen: I, e you know, when Quinn is um not suffering in terms of pain or disease, but he, you know, is supposedly suffering due to having to live so long.
Jen: on repeating the same things over and over. And also other theme, rights of the individual versus rights of the state. So they were my two. What about you guys?
El Platypo: Sexism, why are omnipotent being sexist?
Jen: ah
Red D: Well, yes. I think Janium came up with a good response to that.
El Platypo: Oh yeah, fair.
Red D: A good rational.
El Platypo: I know, i think I think you had some good one. I mean, there's a really interesting one about why on earth the Q continuum are respecting a star, well... ah Federation star ships offer of asylum when they're quite clearly capable of just taking the ship itself by snapping their fingers. That's an interesting one for me.
Jen: Yeah, that's all.
Red D: Well, I guess that's Yeah, I mean, she did say that, yeah, anytime anyone requests a sign, then there's a standard procedure, but I guess that's like, maybe abiding by the rules of space, society.
El Platypo: yeah
El Platypo: Also, um which which is closer to a deity? One of the Kew continuum or one of the weird sort of um beings in that weird sort of interspatial hole in Beethor.
Red D: I know
Jen: Oh, what? but
Red D: what you're talking about. The wormhole in D space nine.
El Platypo: Yeah.
Jen: Oh, I can't remember them.
Red D: I think they are more closer to deities.
Red D: Also they have more people worshiping them, right?
Jen: Oh, yeah.
El Platypo: Which the cues?
Red D: No, the wormhole people.
El Platypo: But are the wormhole people omnipotent?
Red D: Don't know.
El Platypo: Interesting.
Red D: But they seem to be a more spiritual element, let's put it that way.
El Platypo: Yep.
Red D: Like visions and connection.
Jen: Plus, the queue talk about evolving.
El Platypo: Yep. Yep.
Jen: So it seemed less, you know, as Rod says, they're spiritual, it's just in in theory all these wonderful what seem like magical things they can do are actually um things that they have evolved to be able to do.
El Platypo: Hmm.
El Platypo: Hmm.
Red D: Yes, maybe their fingers just have like a micro transporter.
Jen: There is that, do you remember that episode, I think it's Deep Space Nine, where there's the Ferengi, I'm not sure though, the Ferengi who basically
Red D: thanks
Jen: are able to convince a village of people that they are deities because they made tricks with a transporter to make it look like they can make things disappear and appear like the cube.
Red D: That's a good episode.
Red D: ah
Jen: So, but that's kind of what the queue always saying, isn't it, is that the reason you, it seems like magic is because you're not involved enough yet, you know, and things that we do now with science, if we went back 300 years, people back then would think it seemed like magic.
Red D: oh that's a good episode
Red D: Yeah.
El Platypo: No, I'm.
El Platypo: a
El Platypo: Interesting.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: Anywho.
Red D: I mean, I think that you you you read you hit the main theme, well, one of the key themes, which is that like, um well, the rights, various rights, but I also, like you said, the nature of suffering and how i mean I often like kind of in a very prestigious manner i say only boring people get bored but I mean be kind of um maybe it's not that I just want to like expand a little bit more on like how tough it is to live if you're super bored and I mean like in a sense like if nothing is great not I mean I don't know we don't spend a lot of time thinking about it but I in my work especially I see people suffer when they're not stimulated at work
El Platypo: Yeah.
Red D: And I certainly feel like i can that can happen to me if I don't take charge of my own stimulation.
El Platypo: Yeah.
Jen: oh
Red D: That's what he said, she said, whatever. but um And yeah, I think he was suffering because he was bored.
El Platypo: yeah
Red D: And I'm not saying fix boredom by like you know running out, trying to get, but you need to be stimulated mentally, physically, otherwise it's a very tough existence.
Jen: oh
Jen: Yeah I mean that's kind of what depression as I understand it equates to isn't it of like you don't you're not interested in anything
El Platypo: Yeah.
Jen: any aspect of your life you're not you're not able to motivate yourself to even get out of bed to do your teeth because it's none of it feels like it's mattered matters matters you're not stimulated by it you're not interested in anything which sounds awful it does that does sound like suffering to me and um know ah to remove on move on to star player which is a bit more like artist okay
Red D: No.
Red D: So.
El Platypo: Well, yes, yes.
Red D: Yeah, sorry. Because we got a small.
Red D: Yes. Yes.
Red D: Jamie.
Jen: David.
El Platypo: Well, I want to name one, but I want to get the reasons why.
Red D: As per every time.
El Platypo: Q. you as the only being in the universe who has managed to be involved in a Star Trek Voyager episode and limit the damage that Neelix has done to some non -catastrophe threatening level.
Red D: Why are you saying that? I feel like I'm forgetting something crucial here.
El Platypo: Because any time anyone else has interacted with Neelix In an episode, we have flirted with disaster, whereas in this instance, Q is so omnipotent and so powerful, he manages to interact with Neelix, and nothing negative occurs, being a slightly weird joke about rabbits.
Red D: Okay.
Red D: Well, you must have a real lens on me, like, yeah.
El Platypo: I love Neelix. I love someone who is able to generate disaster that well, but we gotta respect Q for what he manages there.
Red D: oh
Red D: Very good point. ie ae Well, I'm not sure. Yes, not to say. It was a very tough call for me at this time between 2Buck, the legal genius, and Janeway.
Red D: But I think I'm gonna go for Janeway just for how she handled Q.
El Platypo: nice see
Red D: She was brilliant.
Jen: Yeah, I mean, she was.
Red D: and though obviously the hearing and everything, but it was all her reactions to Q that I really loved.
Jen: Yeah, well, it's a toughie, I agree. I, i especially because I would struggle to choose between, well, three Q, Janeway, and two volt, because I think they all did brilliantly in this.
El Platypo: Nicely. Hmm.
Jen: um I think, ah I think though, i I don't know guys, I don't know, can I have all three? i just I'm just going to go for two boxes because you guys chose Q and Jamie.
Jen: But I thought both Jamie and Q did some brilliant acting.
El Platypo: Actually, I would like to change mine.
Jen: Oh no!
El Platypo: I would like to nominate Bolana Torres for being the one who actually gets him out of captivity.
Red D: Who notices that all the men are gone? Or that she gets them out of the cabin?
El Platypo: You get some out of captivity, no one else beams him out of the asteroid.
Red D: Ohh, it beams him out of the asteroid, yes, sorry.
Jen: She starts it all off. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But yeah, I think.
El Platypo: She's the clown running across that particular minefield.
Red D: But we can - Yes.
Jen: I do think to you, to you, October, there's some mentioned because for reasons read, they explained um not to do with the actors so much as to do with the character plays of putting up such a good defense, even though he doesn't actually um agree.
Red D: Yeah, and I think this might be, oh, maybe it's not, but I feel like this might be the first time I've chosen Jenny.
Jen: oh
Red D: Well, so.
El Platypo: January's our leadership icon.
Red D: She is, but as Jenny always says, we know there's gonna be lots of chain links in the future.
Jen: you yeah i try
El Platypo: one
Jen: try not to use a do
Jen: that's it guys I think it is I'm sorry it was a bit of a long one this time yes I'm
El Platypo: Well done.
Red D: Thank you, Jenny. Is it time for me to play the next jingle?
El Platypo: Can someone else do a bit more dancing there? Cause like I did all of it last time and I didn't like to carry.
El Platypo: Yeah.
Jen: channeling my inner hin, Jamie.
El Platypo: You're in a what?
Jen: Jamie will know what that means. and If anyone reads the Miles Cameron novels Deep Black, they will know what I'm doing in my dance moves.
El Platypo: Oh, yes, yes.
Red D: Who dat?
Red D: Okay.
Red D: Well, I'll have to look it up because I've finished all the books you recommended last time.
Red D: Okay, bye! Don't hang up!
El Platypo: okay
