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We watch "Meld" (S2 Ep.16)
8 Plays2 months ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Meld”, where we meet a very creepy killer and Voyager has to address the question of how to deal with a murderer in the Delta Quadrant.
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at [email protected].
Theme music by Alain D
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Transcript
Introductory Banter
00:00:00
El Platypo
a
00:00:00
Jen
You don't need it.
00:00:02
red23
Okay, we're here. Thank you, JB4.
00:00:05
El Platypo
o Let's see if we can add to the tension. o um Oh, sorry, would you would you like me to wish you the very best of British?
00:00:09
Jen
This is replacing the jingle.
00:00:12
El Platypo
Sorry, I've scared the black cat off.
00:00:14
red23
I don't know what I was saying, but as I said, as I said offline, I seem to have lost the jingle.
00:00:14
El Platypo
ah Sorry, Reggie, you were saying, as I tried to wish you luck in an off-putting way, successfully.
00:00:23
red23
Maybe I'll add it back in. Maybe I won't because you just did that amazing hum for like 10 seconds.
00:00:28
El Platypo
I can, I can do another, I can do another one if you like.
00:00:28
red23
ah oh
00:00:30
Jen
It was a meditative om, that's what it sounded like.
00:00:32
red23
Meditative. We're doing a little meditation this week.
00:00:33
El Platypo
Is a, a meditator for what?
00:00:35
Jen
Very relaxing.
00:00:36
red23
Hub.
00:00:37
Jen
You know, om, you do three om's before meditation.
00:00:38
red23
Om.
00:00:39
El Platypo
Oh,
Episode Analysis: Star Trek Voyager S2E16
00:00:43
red23
That's... I feel a little bit lost without a jingle.
00:00:43
El Platypo
okay.
00:00:44
El Platypo
Gosh.
00:00:45
red23
Okay, maybe hang on.
00:00:46
El Platypo
I mean, I just thought, I just thought one was supposed to masturbate before meditating. That's why one said chill, but okay.
00:00:51
red23
This is not a pee-diddy party and I'm going to bring that up again. so But welcome.
00:00:56
El Platypo
Well, when you say that up again, the fact that it's not a P Diddy party or the approach to masturbation that I was told by those close to me on this call.
00:01:04
red23
I think I've lost control of this recording already in this world.
00:01:07
Jen
Yeah, I feel like we need to disclaimer, guys. Definitely gonna get sued for that one.
00:01:11
red23
ah
00:01:12
El Platypo
Really?
00:01:13
red23
Nothing anyone says on this podcast is a reflection of my opinion, except what I say. so um So welcome back everybody.
00:01:19
El Platypo
And yeah, remind us again who you are. next Sorry, and address.
00:01:25
red23
Sorry for the break, but Jamie was having some kind of work crisis and I was traveling. But um this hopefully is episode about soon, if there are any listeners. But this week we are discussing season two, episode 16 of Star Trek Voyager. The episode's called Meld. So Jamie, do you want to give us your famous one minute summary?
00:01:47
El Platypo
I mean, I don't know. It feels like Stauntrick Voyage's attempt to do that Jack Nicholson a movie where he basically smashes through a door and goes, here's Johnny with the weird sort of serial killer eyes, um because you effectively have.
00:02:02
red23
Oh.
00:02:08
El Platypo
something unbelievably rare in a Star Trek episode in that you have a pathology for violence examined within the context of the enclosure of a Star Trek vessel, which is isolated for an intensely long period of time. And in the middle of that, you have one of the rarest things within the Star Trek universe of a Vulcan mind belt that goes wrong, and an examination both of the consequences of that, and also what it reveals about the darker side of the psyche. And I think this episode is an exploration of that.
00:02:49
red23
Very good.
Spotlight on Brad Dourif's Performance
00:02:50
red23
Wow, very deep.
00:02:50
El Platypo
I was once told that if you say, and I think this is an exploration of that, you would sound very deep, so, you know, it worked.
00:02:56
Jen
this is
00:02:57
red23
Nice phrase, nice phrase.
00:02:58
Jen
Listen, it's a nice ending, yeah. That was a very serious one minute summary.
00:03:02
red23
Yeah.
00:03:02
Jen
It was quite unlike your usual ones.
00:03:03
El Platypo
Well, I mean, that's i don without wishing to dive onto one of my things early, like, someone finally inflicted the violence that I wanted to on Neelix, that I wanted to inflict for so long, and it felt awful, and I felt awful about myself, so yeah, there.
00:03:04
Jen
It's a nice contrast.
00:03:09
red23
Careful.
00:03:14
Jen
oh
00:03:14
red23
ah
00:03:18
red23
Oh, okay.
00:03:20
El Platypo
So that was why it was so serious.
00:03:21
red23
Well, very serious. um I know you do, but we'll dive into that a bit more.
00:03:24
El Platypo
and And I would just like to apologize to everyone for the hatred for Neelix and the others on this podcast have shown. I truly have always secretly loved him in my heart. They were leading history.
00:03:37
red23
And before we go into initial reactions, I actually have one cool thing for this episode, which I did by not doing any research, but
00:03:42
El Platypo
oh
00:03:46
red23
moving one of my points up into the one cool playing section.
00:03:48
El Platypo
ah
00:03:50
red23
But do you recognize the actor who plays Suda the villain in this episode?
00:03:54
Jen
No.
00:03:55
El Platypo
Oh, I did. Oh, oh God.
00:03:57
red23
Come on guys, come on.
00:03:59
El Platypo
Oh, God. I'm trying to remember. I recognize him from something, but yeah.
00:04:02
red23
Because I will tell you a little story and it will give a little insight into my viewing habits which are nothing to be proud of. But earlier this year I finally gave into the Netflix promotion of a series called Psych, which, um, it was on like my, I don't know, home screen, spouse screen, whatever, for ages.
00:04:18
El Platypo
Mm.
00:04:22
red23
I was like, finally. I was like, okay, fine. I'll watch it.
00:04:24
El Platypo
oh
00:04:24
red23
I watched that pilot and I was like, this is terrible. This is awful.
00:04:27
El Platypo
yeah
00:04:28
red23
But I was like, this is good background viewing. Anyway, I watched eight seasons, loved it. That's not a recommendation. It's just saying what I enjoyed.
00:04:35
El Platypo
Okay.
00:04:36
red23
But one of the episodes had this actor and I was like, wait, I know that actor.
00:04:41
El Platypo
yeah
00:04:41
red23
He's from Star Trek Voyager, but he's also from Lord of the Rings.
00:04:45
El Platypo
Oh, which character in Lord of the Rings?
00:04:45
red23
And my brain was like grimo worm tongue in the the middle movie.
00:04:48
Jen
Oh my goodness!
00:04:49
El Platypo
Oh my gosh, yes.
00:04:51
Jen
Oh yeah, I see it now.
00:04:54
red23
You see it now.
00:04:54
Jen
oh
00:04:55
El Platypo
Yeah, yeah.
00:04:55
red23
Yes.
00:04:56
Jen
um He does play that character really well as well, I think,
00:04:59
red23
So well.
00:04:59
El Platypo
yeah
Philosophical Exploration of Human Instincts
00:05:00
Jen
the Wormtail.
00:05:00
El Platypo
Those eyes, gah.
00:05:00
Jen
I even remember thinking that when I watched the Lord of the Rings movies for the first time.
00:05:02
red23
So well.
00:05:06
Jen
I mean, ah I quite liked them. ah You know, I thought they were quite true to the books in the character ah characters anyway.
00:05:10
red23
Yeah, me too.
00:05:11
El Platypo
yeah
00:05:12
Jen
But I remember thinking specifically Wormtail as well was really well done.
00:05:16
red23
Oh, he was so good.
00:05:16
El Platypo
Yeah Yeah, Jesus creepers Worm tongue.
00:05:17
red23
He was so creepy. He was...
00:05:19
Jen
yeah Is that his name in Lord of the Rings?
00:05:21
red23
Well, I'm telling you, I mean, I only know it's called, it's Greamer because of what I'm reading on the...
00:05:25
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:05:26
Jen
um
00:05:26
El Platypo
Yeah Yeah
00:05:29
Jen
Greama, yeah.
00:05:31
red23
And what is this second movie called a comedy with this like Fellowship of the Ring?
00:05:31
Jen
um
00:05:34
El Platypo
The two towers.
00:05:34
red23
Then the last one, The Two Towers, thank you.
00:05:37
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:05:38
red23
And also, I just want to say he was an episode of Psych, which I watched.
00:05:41
El Platypo
Oh,
00:05:42
red23
He's also famously, which I've never seen in One Flew of Cuckoo's Nest or One Flew of Adderall.
00:05:46
El Platypo
all cool.
00:05:47
red23
So when you mentioned Jack Nicholson, interesting.
00:05:49
El Platypo
Ooh, nice. Nice.
00:05:52
red23
And he was the voice of Chucky, another film that I was too afraid to watch as a child.
00:05:56
Jen
Oh wow.
00:05:56
El Platypo
Oh, Jesus, he does creepy really well. Creepy and crazy by the sounds of it.
00:06:00
red23
He does. And I didn't realize, it well, I'm not sure if I realized it this at the time, I might have to go back and check some of my notes. He was in an episode of Vodoshirot that I've been rewatching, so it's all very exciting for me.
00:06:11
El Platypo
Oh wow. Awesome.
00:06:14
red23
Famously, he's known for, I'm sure, this One Flew Over the Cuckoo, the, what's that film called? One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, thank you.
00:06:19
El Platypo
One flew over the cookies nest, yeah.
00:06:22
red23
But I know him from a Psych and Vodoshirot, and Lord of the Rigs. but
00:06:26
El Platypo
It's a good set to have been involved in.
00:06:27
Jen
I think I was. a
00:06:29
red23
He's obviously a very um busy actor.
00:06:31
Jen
Yeah.
00:06:32
red23
So yes, um I just, I was wondering if anyone else had picked that up, but I only realized, I mean, I've seen this episode many times, I've seen Lord of the Rings many times, but only when I watched the psych episode and I was like, wait, where did this go from?
00:06:45
El Platypo
ah
00:06:46
red23
Then my brain like short circuited.
00:06:49
El Platypo
Aww.
00:06:49
red23
So moving to initial reactions, Janie, do you want to kick us off? I'm always going to go Janie, Janie, me, just what would I go?
00:06:53
El Platypo
You got JJ.
00:06:57
red23
Yeah, in alphabetical order.
00:06:58
Jen
yeah absolutely i mean i i love that fun fact or one cool thing red um i did not recognize him at all that is really interesting and yeah i really love this one i i really like sudah like not you know his character obviously but um his whole storyline and it continues on um and until a certain end shall we say for his character and later episodes and i just really enjoy the whole um as James said, an exploration of this this guy's mind, this violent...
00:07:34
Jen
um ah Yeah.
00:07:35
El Platypo
and he's chilling like so cold in in the violence and it's yeah
00:07:37
red23
Yeah.
00:07:44
red23
So Jamie, anything, and well how ah well how did you initially close your initial reaction?
00:07:52
El Platypo
I thought
Themes of Violence and Consequences
00:07:53
El Platypo
it was a harder hitting episode than most Star Treks in that normally this's you know the story arc is that there is a problem, some situation that is slightly challenging but by holding true to the ideals of Starfleet and their abilities they sort of find a way through it and it's all fine at the end.
00:08:19
El Platypo
Whereas with this one, it almost felt like the first time that philosophically the principles of that sort of compact in the Star Trek story were broken this series or challenged seriously in that, you know, you have a member of the crew in two of who is left with with serious consequences after and and is hurt um and psychologically hurt. And yeah, it was,
00:08:55
El Platypo
It was a really striking episode, I think.
00:09:00
red23
Oh, and Jenny, any other initial reactions at this stage?
00:09:07
Jen
um and well just that i really liked it i just i just love that i love like deep dark you know um i like i love this character well it's not the character but the actor i guess um the way he acts the character and also the interaction with Turok um yeah i don't know i just thought it was really fascinating
00:09:11
red23
Okay, great. Because I also
00:09:14
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:09:30
red23
Yes, I have to say I was very excited when I realized this was the episode. I mean, it's mainly maybe for a more shallow reason, but it's Star Trek Voyager and a motor mystery, which is my favorite things.
00:09:40
El Platypo
ah ah Amazing.
00:09:42
red23
Um, so I was, uh, yeah, I was very excited and also a lot of Tupac time.
00:09:48
El Platypo
Yes.
00:09:48
red23
Another one of my favorite things. I think this was, but, um, what I will say is that, you know, we were supposed to record. I think two weeks ago, so I had already made my notes and then I just tried to watch, I did watch it again today, but there's a part of me that's like, oh, I'm not sure I can watch Tupac go through this thing again so soon.
00:10:01
El Platypo
ah ah ah Amazing.
00:10:07
red23
Such an emotional, but I was like, okay, you have to get over yourself. Thank goodness I did, because some of my notes did not make sense to me But we'll probably tie it to that.
00:10:15
Jen
man
00:10:20
red23
So moving into kind of our favorite moments and um kind of just going through our going around in our series. Jenny, do you want to kick us off with something that you enjoyed or found interesting about the episode?
00:10:33
Jen
Yeah, I had like a whole load of points for this one, so I'm gonna have to just sort of look at myself a bit, I think.
00:10:37
red23
Great.
00:10:39
Jen
But and yeah, I think one of the things I really liked about this episode was that there were so many points that were um This is an interesting philosophical question, you know, it sort of had this wider theme and one of them was um like just right at the start, the conversation between Tuvok and Chakotay where Chakotay's sort of saying, you know, I've always had certain concerns about him and Tuvok understandably is saying, well, why on earth didn't you, you know, report them?
00:10:48
El Platypo
Mmm.
00:10:49
red23
Yeah.
00:10:51
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:10:54
El Platypo
Oh yeah.
00:11:08
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:11:10
Jen
um But on the other side of it, she says, you don't report a gut feeling. um And I do think I really can see both sides of that.
00:11:16
red23
Yeah.
00:11:18
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:11:18
Jen
And I do think that is a really difficult um choice to make.
00:11:20
El Platypo
Hmm.
Technology's Role in Managing Instincts
00:11:22
Jen
ah just like Again, a HR issue. um you know but Where is the professional line?
00:11:25
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:11:28
Jen
It's not appropriate to report gut feelings necessarily. you know People have to be given a fair chance.
00:11:31
El Platypo
yeah
00:11:33
Jen
And just because you don't necessarily um gel with someone doesn't it doesn't mean that they can't do a professional job. Um, but then on the other hand, you've got, you know, your personal sense of personal responsibility or your responsibility to the community.
00:11:48
Jen
Um, and in a leadership responsibility, does that include saying to someone or saying to your, your team in whatever context, um, you know, I've had this many decades of experience in the field and I have a bad feeling about this person or this situation.
00:11:48
El Platypo
Mm.
00:12:05
Jen
And is that just a gut feeling or is that like years of experience, um, telling me something that I should in fact listen to. I just think it's a really difficult line to draw and I just find that whole topic really interesting.
00:12:20
red23
Yeah, i mean sorry Jamie, anything to add there?
00:12:20
El Platypo
I agree with that. No, I agree with that. um I once had a conversation when I was working in a control room with a guy who was an ex-police officer who was basically there to you know advise folk in how to operate in operational and emergency situations. And we were having this exact same discussion. I was like, well, can you report things on and say things on the basis of instinct? And he was says Well is it instinct if you say well you know I've been working in the field for 20 years and based on all of that experience and the last time I had this feeling something bad happened and there was an atmosphere and that sort of suggested risk. Is is that a gut feel and is that subjective and should that be ignored especially when it's from those who have experience?
00:13:11
El Platypo
ah versus, you know, everyone is subjective and has their prejudices and who's to say that that gut feeling isn't just a prejudice coming out. So yeah, I agree. It's a fascinating, fascinating sort of question. and And how do you deal with it? Because I think you're right, HR wouldn't, you know, say, well, you've got an instinct balls, that's not evidence. But then, you know, he might be grateful if it saved your life.
00:13:37
Jen
Yeah. And then there's the, yeah, you you touched on this sort of follow on sort of to it, Jamie, is that then if there is a ah feeling about someone, a bad feeling, say, ah what would you actually do then?
00:13:50
El Platypo
yeah
00:13:53
Jen
Because is it considered then unfair to interfere unnecessarily in what's not your business?
00:13:54
El Platypo
They haven't actually done something wrong yet. yeah
00:13:59
Jen
Or is it actually your, a sense of community responsibility to um interfere effectively?
00:14:06
El Platypo
yes
00:14:07
Jen
ah Yeah. Don't know.
00:14:10
red23
Yeah, it is a tough one. I think um one thing that I was just thinking about when you were talking, it's like they accepted him into the key or something, but he like, no one ever promoted him or gave him more power, which was like, I guess their way of not could take, yeah, mitigating risk.
00:14:21
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:14:25
El Platypo
Judging and keeping risk from his keeping risk from it.
00:14:25
Jen
and
00:14:28
red23
of but I mean, I know I'm like giving a lot of extra story where there isn't any, but he's not a character that got put forward for a leadership role, but it's
00:14:32
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:14:37
red23
Yes, it's like, oh, you can have a bad feeling about someone or know that they could be a bit, but if they're not doing anything in the moment, like they never, it's a bit of a tricky situation and that's why hiring is so important, but in this case, they didn't have much choice.
00:14:42
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:14:50
El Platypo
yeah and I yeah well on on the on the topic of hiring do do you mind if I jump to my sort of point that I quite I enjoyed well I I just really really enjoyed it when the doctor did done his scans and basically said that comparing between the two elements of the crew the Starfleet and the marquee the marquee all seemed more sort of ah
00:14:59
red23
Well, yes, so we can move on to your corporate.
00:15:17
El Platypo
how shall I put it, predisposed toward violent anarchic and volatile tendencies? And Tuvok, I think, tries to question Shikote on the selection of people, and Shikote shoots something back along the lines of, sorry, you can't select her from the cream of the cream the way that Starfleet Academy can.
00:15:32
Jen
so
00:15:36
El Platypo
And that just made me laugh on the sort of hiring thing.
00:15:41
red23
But yes, I guess, I mean, that does tie into like, everyone had these, they were kind of these little signs of Suda's potential. I mean, this is almost thinking of the, remind me of that movie,
Parasites and Mental Health
00:15:50
red23
Minority Report, which I only saw, but like, yes, people found him a bit like, I don't know if it was creepy already, but um ah he like biologically had some kind of markers, but they weren't significantly different to what was expected, but just a little hints, but until someone,
00:16:08
red23
actually does something you don't really know what they're capable of, I guess.
00:16:17
red23
Oh! Why does he keep leaving for called, Annie?
00:16:22
Jen
Yeah, you've gone again Jay.
00:16:24
red23
Is there a cat playing with his cable or something?
00:16:28
red23
Well, let's, okay, let me little make it let make a little bit of a note in case I just decide to edit this, but if not, let's keep judging. I mean, not a about
00:16:36
Jen
Okay.
00:16:37
red23
uh the episode but yeah we've yeah but well i feel like maybe jamie you would want to be here for this topic but um i don't know why what i will say while jamie's not here is and i kind of have alluded to it and we kind of discuss what a great actor or what a great like villain this um guy is suitor but
00:16:38
Jen
You may come back in a minute.
00:16:44
Jen
Do you want to go on to one of your topics Red?
00:16:53
Jen
oh
00:17:06
red23
um ah He is so creepy. He is in quotes, exceedingly creepy. And I had to use the words exceedingly creepy because every morning I get up and have coffee and I watch this um guy on YouTube, Dr. Grande, who covers a lot of true crime cases. They're just like 15 minute videos. And he does like a personality profile of the perpetrator, I guess.
00:17:27
red23
And it's often be like they were self-centered, entitled, but and often he's like, and exceedingly creepy. And he's a psychologist. I'm like, is exceedingly creepy?
00:17:39
red23
The technical term? I don't know. But um I thought this guy played Brad Dureff, or I think is the actor's name. He played this creepiness so well in this episode.
00:17:50
Jen
yeah yeah you really did i mean yeah i do have a lot of points so just to add on to that one red because it's a tiny little thing but
00:17:57
red23
Where? Yeah? Go for it.
00:18:02
Jen
I think also adding to the creepy creepiness is the black eyes.
00:18:06
red23
Yes!
00:18:06
Jen
I love the black eyes.
00:18:07
red23
The black eyes.
00:18:08
Jen
They're really cool.
00:18:09
red23
It also occurred to me when he has that like kind of maybe penultimate scene with Tuvok when he's in the brig and he's Tuvok is there still trying to like I guess delve into his motive.
00:18:21
red23
And I realized the actor, he's got those black eyes, but they're shifting all the time. like Like they shift like, ah and I was like, how does he do that as an actor?
00:18:26
Jen
oh
00:18:29
red23
Like, is he consciously like switching? I mean, I know nothing about acting, so excuse me. But like, I suddenly he realized that was like a conscious choice that he must have made to do that. I don't think that's how, and it was like, it was so effective.
00:18:40
Jen
oh Yes. ah creepy
00:18:44
red23
Oh, should we send a search party for Jamie? What's going on?
00:18:49
Jen
yeah Shall I go find out what's going on?
00:18:54
red23
Yeah. Oh, you can meet yourself and yell.
00:18:54
Jen
And then we might have to edit.
Character Analysis: Neelix and Humor in Star Trek
00:18:59
Jen
One sec.
00:19:00
red23
Yeah.
00:19:01
Jen
What's happening?
00:19:07
Jen
my laptop has catastrophically filled you mind ifified joined there terry would have got one of but yeah
00:19:13
red23
No, that's okay.
00:19:16
Jen
okay i think jay's gonna join me oh so i can take these up i li my right we
00:19:24
red23
Oh, just have to get the echo. Let's stop now, but it's, it's, oh, no.
00:19:28
Jen
ah
00:19:32
red23
It's just funny when I edit these types of episodes, it starts with three voices and then there's two voices. I'm like, what happened?
00:19:38
Jen
yeah Jamie learnt some manners is what happened.
00:19:42
red23
um But I'm just gonna, okay, I think the echo has stopped a bit. um Okay.
00:19:48
Jen
okay
00:19:49
red23
Oh, no.
00:19:52
Jen
Sorry that was probably me too.
00:19:52
red23
I don't know.
00:19:53
Jen
I'm trying to turn you up because you're a bit quiet. um get guitar
00:19:57
red23
ah Okay, let me try again. Well, I mean, I think it's okay, actually. Maybe, and yeah, I think it's much better now. I don't hear myself anymore. So I was gonna go on to my point.
00:20:07
red23
So remember we watched this episode about two weeks ago? Or three? Yeah, two. And I don't know if you know that it was all the Peter Lee stuff was coming out into the open.
00:20:16
Jen
Oh, gosh.
00:20:19
red23
And you remember this scene at the start of the episode where Nelix is very excited that he's found out about this Vulcan festival, Vulcan Remarry.
00:20:26
Jen
Oh, gosh. He will sit and negate a Vulcan orgy to make two Voxpile.
00:20:34
red23
And to increase crew morale, he was like, oh, Bailey clothes, Vulcan men and women slippery and chasing each other.
00:20:37
Jen
yeah
00:20:42
red23
And I was like, is that a Vulcan freak That's all I'm saying.
00:20:45
Jen
because oh oh dear
00:20:52
red23
not following yeah it's what p did he it was way too much effort for what i can only think is too little reward basically but um that's my opinion on things well the no
00:20:52
Jen
I didn't even know what a freak off is, but it sounds terrifying.
00:21:04
Jen
What? I feel like I need to have read more about this. I've only seen a headline, so I don't know any of the details. Which I don't feel you need to explain. yeah I mean there's a reason why I didn't think into the articles.
00:21:19
red23
or Jamie wasn't here, but Jenny, I watched Dr. Grande covered this in a video in a very factual manner. And so I have some of the facts of the indictment that is has been lodged against him.
00:21:28
Jen
yes oh 600 sexual assault allegations.
00:21:32
red23
No, not that not that like not that the indictment at the moment doesn't allege any sexual assault. It's about sex trafficking because he arranged, I don't know, wherever he was or
00:21:42
Jen
Oh, that's self service.
00:21:44
red23
he would like, he had these male prostitutes and then he made like the woman that he knew or worked for them have sex with these male prostitutes, but like in front of him so he could self-service.
00:21:57
red23
Let's put it that way.
00:22:01
red23
As I said, way too much effort for what was, what was going on. I'm sorry, I just took it.
00:22:08
Jen
Can we bring this back to the wholesome world of Star Trek?
00:22:08
red23
But it makes, yes.
00:22:11
Jen
home we have she It's not what I signed up to when I signed up to a serial killer episode.
00:22:13
red23
but I mean,
Tuvok's Emotional Journey
00:22:17
Jen
I wanted good clean violence.
00:22:18
red23
Nelix did, yes, but I got to say, Nelix did very much explicitly imply that this volcanology would improve crew morale, like I said.
00:22:29
Jen
I mean, it's an opinion.
00:22:32
red23
Yes, agreed.
00:22:33
Jen
I mean, was was was your morale not improved by the last orchard you had?
00:22:40
red23
That's a different podcast.
00:22:43
Jen
That's not a no. New York's is right yet again, and I'd like to say I'm always back to...
00:22:45
red23
Ah, teasing.
00:22:49
red23
Ah, teasing. Okay, Janie, back to you. Your next favourite moment, highlight.
00:22:53
Jen
Ooh. Back to you. Okay, so, I mean, again, I'm very sorry about this very pretentious list here, but I have all these, like, like philosophical themes that I felt came out.
00:23:07
Jen
But I generally just like to ponder them. because I'm a bit weird that way. um So this whole idea of accepting the illogical, um so I mean the idea that Suda was just provoked into such a violent reaction by a look. Someone just looked at him in a way he didn't like um and you know you would mostly think, well, that's crazy, my God.
00:23:33
Jen
um But then I just love the doctor's explanation. He's like, well, actually, you know, humanoids are evolved as violent predators by nature. um And, you know, we all have that instinct within us, and which is quite a terrifying thought.
00:23:47
Jen
I know mean, you know, everyone has those moments when you're just at the end of your tent tether and then something, some tiny little thing happens, you know, someone slams a door too hard or something and you just,
00:23:58
red23
Yeah.
00:23:59
Jen
You know, you even if you don't behave outwardly, you get very angry. You're just, you know, um you do you you know lose your head a bit.
00:24:04
red23
Yeah.
00:24:08
Jen
So, I mean, I guess it is there. um And hilariously, like that whole thought process just reminded me of, because we we have two recent written acquisitions in the form of kittens.
00:24:22
red23
Oh,
00:24:23
Jen
aye And I spend far too much time just watching them. play in pounce and things. And it just really just reminds me of the natural instinct. to I was reading it because we're sort of reading up on how to make sure we're looking after them very well. And when I was reading about how with cats and presumably a lot of predatory animals, and they were basically this sort of advice on looking after cats was basically saying um that they have this natural instinct to pounce on any small moving object.
00:24:53
Jen
um regardless of how they're feeling, if they're hungry, um if they're completely nat shattered, um you know, all these other needs, that that kind of trumps them, and they actually can't repress that instinct.
00:24:57
red23
Oh.
00:25:08
Jen
so um It's actually kind of cruel to keep me keep playing with them too much in the way, to see what
00:25:08
red23
Wow.
00:25:11
red23
Oh.
Empathy and Psychological Understanding of Suda
00:25:15
Jen
ties them up.
00:25:17
Jen
the laser, the laser where they were planting the first time we used to. Yeah, we were playing a bit too much with the laser. But anyway, yeah, and it just, um I just was thinking about that.
00:25:28
Jen
And it seemed to kind of relate to this idea that it's a natural instinct that might still be in humans.
00:25:34
red23
Yeah. know
00:25:35
Jen
And maybe that's where this violent reaction comes from. them Yes, but Souza has played differently to that in my mind. he He's played so coldly that it's not It doesn't feel like a violent reaction instinct. What makes him so chilling is so much so that it feels like a conscientious thing. The guy, who the individual has looked at him in a way he doesn't like. He's realized that he doesn't like this, and he's decided his response is violence. Like he has, in the truest sense possible, chosen violence rather than been overcome by it as an instinct in the way that
00:26:14
Jen
the doctor or the kiss in an arch, you would say. And that's that's why I find him so almost so chillingly played. Yeah.
00:26:21
red23
Hmm. I think, um, yeah, I think, well, I spent also like Jenny, a lot of time thinking about these things I think, or probably also like Jamie, but I think it is a good reminder.
00:26:33
red23
It's like, we all have that in us.
00:26:37
Jen
and one
00:26:38
red23
That's why there's violence in the world. To pretend that we don't have it in us is naive, dumb, whatever it is.
00:26:41
Jen
the
00:26:46
red23
I'm always concerned when people seem to be like, not aware of the barriers or contracts social contracts that we have to not do that and start like breaking those down.
00:26:56
red23
Because I'm like, we can't go that way. If you want to go that way, we can all go that way. It's a fine line, I think. I mean, not saying every day I want to vote everyone. But um if you feel threatened, and in a way he kind of felt threatened by a dumb thing, but he felt threatened, you can become violent.
00:27:11
Jen
culture
00:27:15
Jen
that
00:27:16
red23
So yeah, it's I think it's
00:27:17
Jen
harry think
00:27:21
red23
It's well suppressed, like, in a lot of societies, but it's still a bit...
00:27:22
Jen
<unk> Yeah. yeah Oh, 100%.
00:27:29
red23
So, that's...
00:27:30
Jen
Yeah. Interesting.
00:27:32
red23
jane Jamie,
00:27:35
Jen
Probably one of my notes, isn't it? Sorry. Do you mind if I take control? Um, so I'm interestingly, um, I, which one should I go with? I mean, I, I think the next one is actually going to be influenced by the fact that um Jenny and I recently met an author by the name of Alexander McCall Smith.
00:27:58
red23
What? I've also met Alexander McCallston. It's in Africa at a book event.
Comic Relief and Lighthearted Moments
00:28:03
Jen
Yeah.
00:28:04
red23
Does she meet him?
00:28:05
Jen
That's what we were doing. We must do so many. Yeah.
00:28:08
red23
No, this was a long time ago and it was like a huge treat. But yes, how was it?
00:28:11
Jen
Oh, Yeah, of course, like they've got this book festival going on locally. We just noticed that, you know, just around the corner, he was going to be there and, you know, 16 quid to go and hear him talk about his new book.
00:28:17
red23
Ah.
00:28:23
Jen
And, then you know, there's things like, he said he'd sign books after, and we thought, oh, well, might as well, you know.
00:28:24
red23
How amazing.
00:28:32
Jen
But to to me, the the sort of link that I was going to draw is, he describes one of his characters as being like the spirit of innocence. And I think in many ways, Neelix very much is that, as much as he annoys me that he is the spirit of innocence, he doesn't realise how bad things are, how serious things are, how dangerous things are. And almost having seeing the thing that someone as controlled as Tuvok does be to harm him almost is a way of underlining exactly how impactive the key narrative or second key narrative event of this episode of
00:29:12
Jen
of Tuvok undergoing a mind melt with Susha really is. um So yeah, i i I was just sort of struck by that as a link and as ah another way in which Neelix is used as the narrative foil by the Royces.
00:29:31
red23
Yeah, so you're referring to the scene, I guess, where we don't know it quite yet, but Tuvok is in the holodeck and Neelix in the canteen area type thing.
00:29:36
Jen
six Yeah.
00:29:39
red23
And Neelix, well, as like, kind of pushes them to the point where Tuvok reacts very violently and essentially murders? I mean, that's how foreign.
00:29:48
Jen
Yeah, he breaks his murdering Neelix and the Hollow.
00:29:52
red23
Yeah, so.
00:29:52
Jen
But someone says a testament to exactly how frustrating and annoying Neelix is, but, you know, others might call chilling.
00:29:59
red23
Well, yes, I did want to know what you thought of that because did you, at that point in time, did you think to yourself, huh, phew, Namix is gonna be gone.
00:30:06
Jen
No, I was like, this is awful! so
00:30:09
red23
Oh.
00:30:09
Jen
Why did I want bad things to happen to them? It's so bad when they do.
00:30:13
red23
Oh.
00:30:13
Jen
No, that was basically me.
00:30:15
red23
because I also had that point a little bit down, so I'll just add, but because I watched the episode twice, obviously obviously the first time, I was like shocked, I guess, like a few weeks ago, but when I watched it today and I knew it was coming, I was like, oh my gosh, Neelix and the writers were like, played this perfectly because he really does just ratchet it up, his annoyingness a little bit.
00:30:34
red23
He's like, the things he says, when he tries to make Tubak smile by touching his face, I was like, yes, I would also wanna like, choose violence if someone did that to me.
00:30:37
Jen
it was too much younger
00:30:44
Jen
Yeah. He does that, I agree. He does that super annoying really well. Um, and I, especially if you've had a really bad night's sleep, I think that would, that would really set you on.
00:30:53
red23
Oh yes.
00:30:57
red23
So while we don't endorse bias, they did like up the ante a bit of the character in that scene, I think, to just make an extra noise.
00:31:01
Jen
Yeah. Just like, yeah. Oh my goodness. Yeah.
00:31:08
red23
Anything else to add, bit Jenny or Jamie, before I go to my second point?
00:31:12
Jen
two and of No, I think that was an interesting one. and i It does raise a different question about the use of technology in the Star Trek universe. When is it just a healthy mental well-being prop? And when is it really, really terrifying and chilling and someone get the the shrink in when someone starts killing people in, I nearly said the ah HR office, but really well it was the holiday deck.
00:31:41
red23
Yes, because, I mean, I feel like Tuvok is a bit ambivalent towards Sura in the sense that, well, we'll get to maybe a little and later, but he doesn't think the punishment is the crime, but he also, after the mind meld, seems to think like it's amazing that he hasn't been more violent because he, I guess, hasn't. Oh, I've just lost my train of thought. But what were you saying, Jamie? like um
00:32:09
Jen
oh
00:32:11
red23
Do you remember what you were saying?
00:32:13
Jen
I do, which is a little bit depressing. I think we were going somewhere along the lines of T-vault, Suda...
00:32:16
red23
Oh,
00:32:21
Jen
Oh, no, no, the fact that an interesting question is raised about the use of technology in the Star Trek universe of, is it just, you know, people venting or is it weird and terrifying when they kill people in the holodeck?
00:32:27
red23
oh yes. Yeah, sorry.
00:32:35
red23
Yes, because I went to
00:32:36
Jen
Holo characters in the holodeck.
00:32:38
red23
Tuvok seems to, I mean, he's desperate for a reason, but he kind of latches onto this idea that maybe he needs an outlet for his violent tendencies.
00:32:44
Jen
Yeah.
00:32:45
red23
And I was, I don't know what you think, you'd think but I was like, surely just acting out your violent tendencies. I'm not comparing this to computer games, by the way. um That could lead to more violence, but I found it interesting though.
00:32:53
Jen
and oh yeah
00:32:57
red23
That's what he thought was a potential solution.
00:32:58
Jen
it's It's either vent or fanning the flames. i Yeah, it is an interesting point.
00:33:02
red23
Yeah.
00:33:04
Jen
I relate it a little bit to a conundrum I have in my life. in Sometimes she wants to be her husband. When you're frustrated and inevitably is a work thing, right? And, you know, i does ranting help? I don't know. Sometimes I think it's a release of tension. And other times I wonder if it just, you know, up the ante and makes you wound up. and so And similarly, many men struggle with sharing their emotions and
00:33:37
Jen
you know, quote unquote, talking about things, not because it's difficult to do the talking, but because they're convinced that actually, it's just going to lead to doom spiraling.
00:33:48
Jen
Which is one of the many, one of the reasons that blokes don't share as much because they're a bit like, if you talk about it, it's only going to be more present and more present and more present. And that sort of makes things worse.
00:34:00
Jen
So yeah, I totally get what you're talking about.
00:34:01
red23
okay I think I go through yeah interesting I mean I think I go through phases if I feel like my suffering is a bit self-inflicted I'll stop talking about it um but yeah because I think at that point I'm like well this is my choice so what is the point of talking about it like in a sense it's not
00:34:04
Jen
I'm not saying that's right, by the way. but it is a view.
00:34:17
Jen
But that's almost entirely different from whether it helps you to talk about it or not.
00:34:25
Jen
Why not?
00:34:28
red23
nothing new but
00:34:30
Jen
This is an intervention.
00:34:32
red23
I think generally, I mean, if you're in a new situation and it's frustrating, I can't.
00:34:35
Jen
said
00:34:38
red23
I don't think by vent talking about it with someone, you're going to go, let's take the work example.
00:34:38
Jen
that yeah
00:34:43
red23
Never have I vented and then has it made me more angry at work. So I don't know.
00:34:49
Jen
No, I've vented and it's made me realise that someone is being a dick to me at work and it's made me more angry in my interactions with them this week.
00:34:58
red23
Okay. Interesting.
00:35:00
Jen
I'm not going to say I'm a business partner. Jenny knows all too well.
00:35:03
red23
hi
00:35:03
Jen
Probably for the best. All too well.
00:35:06
red23
okay before we give all our secrets away i only have one little point to make at this point um i just thought that the first murder on voyager was pretty grisly and gruesome the murder of frank darwin but they just find an arm in like one of the...
00:35:18
Jen
Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:23
red23
why don't you put some something
00:35:24
Jen
That's a problem about the fiction. united states ah yeah They only found an arm because the rest have been rendered down by the Wolf, Winston Wolf.
00:35:34
red23
was pretty gruesome.
00:35:36
Jen
Yeah.
00:35:36
red23
I guess like what you said earlier, the psycho or the horror movie type film, I was like, well, it's pretty extreme.
00:35:40
Jen
like
00:35:45
red23
so I mean, I'm not saying i didn't um it wasn't good, it was just like, took it to the kind of, murder is one thing, dismemberment is not another thing, that's a whole other.
00:35:55
Jen
Yeah, that's, that's, wow. That's horrible.
00:35:58
red23
Yeah, they went there, they went there.
00:35:59
Jen
oh They really did. They really did.
00:36:05
red23
Okay, back to you, Jenny, because I think you said you've got a lot of points.
00:36:07
Jen
ah ah do far too many I made a point.
00:36:10
red23
No, I also have lots, but let's get going.
00:36:14
Jen
And then it kind of was answered at the end. but And then I thought I'd leave it here. Just because, you know, still kind of valid.
00:36:25
Jen
And I'm glad, I'm so glad it was addressed. You know, when it wasn't quite in the beginning, but Tuvok decides to have his mind bowed.
00:36:36
Jen
Yeah.
00:36:36
red23
oh yes
00:36:37
Jen
And he's like the head of security and he just decides it and he then goes and forwards it. And I just, apologize I just have to ask, well, where is Captain Janeway's approval? Is there no, you know, process of system in place? This is completely needing to get HR. But wait, but I haven't finished. But then, right at the end, at the very end of the episode,
00:37:01
Jen
Jamie actually leads to it and she says, no more mine well without my permission.
00:37:03
red23
Oh yes.
00:37:05
Jen
I'm like, well, you've established that protocol now, but where was it? Surely there was something in place before that. You can't just like decide that someone's going to get some criminal is going to get some treatment that involves you sharing your brain with them.
00:37:21
Jen
You're the only person that that approval goes through as head of security. That's just wild. um
00:37:28
red23
I 100% agree. And it's, sorry, but it's amazing. It took one and a half series for them to get to this point.
00:37:34
Jen
never happen I mean, I'd like to point out that what Jenny and the audience can't see is me bouncing up and down behind her with my hand up in the air. She's reminded me of one of my favorite bits of the episode where the only rational voice on Voyager makes the exact same point with an amount of snark that I love. The doctor saying, Vulcan, mind us. A ridiculous practice.
00:37:57
Jen
I'll just dive into someone else's mind, and when it goes wrong, and it goes wrong more often than they'll admit to you, it comes straight to you to sort them out. And I just absolutely love this world where you're just fighting scorn for what we use as a ridiculous practice.
00:38:07
red23
ah
00:38:16
red23
you Yeah, he was great. He had a few funny lines, but there's so much going on that I was just like, okay, funny people. and very But yes, he was, he was scathing of the mind build.
00:38:22
Jen
Funny or die.
00:38:27
red23
And I'm glad there has been an official policy change on the text.
00:38:32
Jen
I mean, is it is it official? or It's actually not been signed on an HR policy document. It was very casual, a casual finding. It might have been guidance, not order.
00:38:45
red23
I think none of you have been in the Navy or the Army where you might have a captain because no, but I know that her word is like the final saying.
00:38:49
Jen
Have you?
00:38:57
Jen
you can' You can't go from, no one else but me has the subjective experience of this, oh my point is right. To admitting that you don't have the subjective experience of it in order to back up that sort of firepower.
00:39:10
red23
I think you're just imagining, uh, like wishy-washy corporate jobs where people just say stuff and everything happens.
00:39:14
Jen
Excuse me, some of us work with the security services.
00:39:19
red23
Okay. Well, I was just thinking about my...
00:39:20
Jen
You know. I have, in fact, some interaction with people who would be described as captains. You better edit that bit out or you'll be in trouble now. What way? No, that's the sound.
00:39:32
red23
No, I think we're okay.
00:39:33
Jen
Sorry, that
00:39:36
red23
Okay, Jenny, I think coming back round to you.
00:39:36
Jen
will
00:39:39
Jen
oh Oh! Yeah, I got mine in off the back of yours. I don't wait for it to ask me, I just dive in with more points.
00:39:44
red23
Uh, he just starts talking.
00:39:46
Jen
la Oh, I see.
00:39:46
red23
It's very confusing as I'm moderating.
00:39:46
Jen
Well, that's what a conversation is. You don't have to wait for someone to say, you're below point. You're below point. I like it.
00:39:55
red23
I am a Vulcan, so yes, I do. I do something like that.
00:39:59
Jen
I'm in between you guys. Well, I'm a Britazoid who can't actually feel others feeling, so you should be very scared indeed.
00:40:05
red23
Oh dear. Red flag.
00:40:06
Jen
I'm going to be in the Switzerland in between and say, I like having a structure which is then allows flexibility and
00:40:07
red23
Jane.
00:40:15
Jen
structure to start with as a basis but then you can just throw it away if you if it's all what what starter experience right to be said that is i have no very clean and throw away throw away um yeah i have just a really light-hearted one
00:40:21
red23
and
00:40:27
red23
Yeah.
00:40:37
red23
Go for it.
00:40:38
Jen
um I just really loved, you know, but I like the most common comedic moments in Voyager that I love. I usually like the Doctor. um but I really love Paris' delivery.
00:40:51
Jen
When he's running this like illicit gambling ring, he's like creaming off all the profit profits as the organizer, no one's ever winning.
00:40:55
red23
ah
00:40:59
Jen
And then his delivery of the line, what was that computer? What do I hear? The winner, again, is just very well delivered.
00:41:11
red23
Oh, I'm glad, I'm glad you got to mention, cause that B story line ran the whole episode and I was like, I have nothing. Well, not, I don't have anything to say about it, but I had so much to say about everything else.
00:41:19
Jen
Yeah, yeah, same.
00:41:20
red23
So you have to have at least an A story and a B story.
00:41:21
Jen
Why did they have that whole gambling ring side story? It's like almost irrelevant to the entire story beyond someone getting disappointed with Tom Paris.
00:41:34
red23
Like, um, for the episode was unusual to have just an A story. It's the A stories.
00:41:39
Jen
a
00:41:41
red23
pseudo 2-box thing and the b-story is like i guess um some light or entertainment in between the seriousness of the yeah well that's just how they construct tv episodes from what i've read and researched but you know like in a sitcom you'll have like you can have a b c and then like just like a little what they call a runner which is really just like a little joke that run not so much a story that runs
00:41:41
Jen
ah to
00:41:50
Jen
i mr like go i said right
00:42:10
Jen
Okay. okay
00:42:13
red23
Okay, Jamie, you ready?
00:42:16
Jen
Oh, I'm out. Right.
00:42:17
red23
Go for it.
00:42:18
Jen
So i i I actually sort of alluded to my next point here. I mean, can we imagine what it is being like being a member of a species who can all feel each other's feelings moment to moment to moment, but then being one who can't, how isolating that must be.
00:42:38
Jen
Is it any wonder that someone like who feels that level of isolation and from presumably like Yeah, I was about to say something far less pleasant.
00:42:51
Jen
He's actually being violent.
00:42:54
red23
So this is Suta.
00:42:54
Jen
And when his violence is an outcome of his isolation, or his isolation is an outcome of his violent tendencies, because no one wants to share feelings with him as a beast as always. I, yeah, I found that quite telling.
00:43:07
red23
So just, yeah, just to clarify, you're talking about Suta, who is the murderer, and it turns out a beatazoid, which a, I was like kind of surprised because the only other beatazoid I really know is the counselor from Enterprise, and she's lovely.
00:43:11
Jen
Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:23
red23
So that was a good face cut off. Yeah,
00:43:36
Jen
in restraining him is that for almost the first time in his life can actually feel empathy with another
00:43:45
red23
it was kind of, again on the rewatch, well the second rewatch, it was kind of
00:43:48
Jen
Yup
00:43:50
red23
horrifying how he was like kind of doing quite well from the mind build and Tuvok was going, I don't know.
00:43:54
Jen
Yeah. Well, that was that was the entire point of it, wasn't it? To try and restrain his violent tendencies, although very local is made of the sort of three principles of justice of restitution, restoration, rehabilitation.
00:43:58
red23
Yeah.
00:44:09
Jen
um Which, you know, to walk seems to be going to has such interesting feelings this episode, because I think he actively despises Sushar, but all of his actions rather than aiming at restorative or restitution of justice are aimed at rehabilitative justice in spite of that sort of contempt and feeling that the punishment of seizure is inadequate.
00:44:36
Jen
And I ah find that quite a telling element of the Star Trek ethos that that behavior is viewed as the likely one, the appropriate one.
00:44:37
red23
Yes.
00:44:48
red23
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you have a few things to say about that. So maybe, but yes, he kind of oscillates because he, you know, he, he, he tells Janeway that he's suitors willing to die for his crime.
00:44:58
Jen
and Yeah.
00:45:00
red23
That's obviously out of the question.
00:45:03
red23
he goes out of his way to try and like understand why this guy committed the crime uh yeah he's he's struggling i think which is one of my points but before i go there i'll just go quickly i did and you already alluded to this i thought the the confession from suitor when he finally is caught up by the DNA evidence go DNA um he's like well there's no point in denying it but he's just so cold like matter of fact and
00:45:06
Jen
and Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:30
Jen
matter fact
00:45:33
red23
As I think you guys know, I, you know, lots of true crime podcasts, lots of, I don't watch it a lot of like actual confessions or anything, although I think you can see this on YouTube, but it's kind of realistic.
00:45:34
Jen
i think
00:45:45
red23
Like if someone has, often it's very realistic, not all the time obviously, see but they'll just describe what they did to this person who they allegedly loved and lived with and whatever.
00:45:56
Jen
Yeah. Matter of fact. yes
00:45:57
red23
Then they're just like, yeah, then I just put her in the carpet and I put her in the boot of my car and I drove and
00:46:01
Jen
Oh, that's so horrible.
00:46:03
red23
but It's very chilling, but I thought the way he delivered it was quite realistic.
00:46:07
Jen
to and
00:46:10
red23
ah Very chilling, but it is chilling because it's just this.
00:46:15
Jen
Yeah, I have no idea if it was realistic, but I did love the different as well, because it just made complete sense. It was very like, no, not melodramatic or, you know, over emotional, you know, it was just, um, it felt very real.
00:46:34
red23
yeah
00:46:34
Jen
Um, and, you know, I mean, it was logical, right? Like he had scientific evidences, you know, he knew he was out of luck.
00:46:38
red23
Yeah.
00:46:42
Jen
Um, and yeah, I agree. I did enjoy that scene. I think that was well done. Also, I have a point. Is it, is it Suda with a D?
00:46:51
red23
Yes, Sudha.
00:46:51
Jen
Suda.
00:46:51
red23
Sorry. Yeah.
00:46:52
Jen
Okay. and i think you werere saying it right red i was just you what offer suit to me yeah
00:46:53
red23
But I did say Sudha, but I said both. I said both. But I think, you know, if I think about when my teenage self watched this, I would have been like, oh, that guy is so creepy and he's so cold and he is all of this, all of those things.
00:47:11
red23
But now, like maybe, let's say, you could say entertainment or educating myself about like what drives a lot of crime or whatever.
00:47:15
Jen
and
00:47:18
red23
I was like, oh, that was actually a very realistic portrayal in certain ways.
00:47:20
Jen
No, no, no. I think you were saying it right, Red. I was just kidding.
00:47:23
red23
So it's just fun to come back to episodes and get something different or experience it a different way.
00:47:28
Jen
yeah
00:47:30
red23
um Okay, we're whizzing around. Jenny, back to you.
00:47:36
Jen
and Well, can I have two seconds? Well, I just reassessed my little list here. So I noted down, I love Tuvok's response to his realisation that he's in danger. He is a danger.
00:47:55
Jen
and the because ah you know the the formula is four window is done in a lot of programs I find where you know something happens to to a main character who's usually a good guy and then their mind is taken over or something happens and the character um sees all the signs of this and for some reason tries to bury them tell themselves they're fine and then as a result terrible consequences happen and and you know and then it gets resolved at the end eventually and i just find that that is trusted out a lot that's true so i just love that like basically almost as soon as anything dodgy is is showing in two books character he's like right
00:48:42
Jen
I'm going to isolate myself, I'm going to tell that the appropriate people, I'm going to ensure that no one goes near me. And I just thought, I love that because it's actually breaking from the formula.
00:48:53
Jen
And yet surely that is far more likely to be what happens in a real scenario. You know, like surely you'd recognize that, especially the head of security. especially he's of bulk if she's a battery Yeah, you'd recognize that something's affected you um and you need to act on it.
00:49:03
red23
Yeah.
00:49:11
Jen
so
00:49:12
red23
I love that point because I 100% understand what you mean. And it's sometimes something that puts me off a show or something is if there's too much bad decision making, like they just keep Like I get that sometimes the driver of the story of a comedy but like if it's too much I just can't handle it and in this case he did something like that you say it's not the formula but it still led to great story.
00:49:25
Jen
Yeah.
00:49:35
red23
They didn't have to go through that whole like typical thing because he still has a really powerful storyline.
00:49:36
Jen
yeah
00:49:40
Jen
Absolutely. Yeah.
00:49:43
red23
Yeah.
00:49:43
Jen
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:45
red23
A Jamie I think to add there because I just jumped in.
00:49:48
Jen
No, no, I don't think you did. Although I am reminded of the fact that on a lighter-hearted note, when Tuvok does acknowledge the fact that he is a danger, I just love the fact that when everyone sort of comes in to actually sort of find him as much, it's terrifying. It's also weirdly funny because it's been this really cold, controlled unbelievably you know neat and tiny realm and then they enter the tour it's like an apocalypse has broken up like the room has absolutely been I mean trashed to the point of comedy as a way of den as a way of demonstrating exactly the trouble that Tupac is in mentally and it's both comedic but also disturbing I think
00:50:22
red23
Oh yeah, his quarters. That's so interesting, because I found... Yeah, go ahead.
00:50:38
red23
Yeah. Yeah. I would just find it interesting that you... I mean, I guess I can see your point, but when I saw it, I was like, wow, he's really onto a dark place. Jamie, are you ready for your...
00:50:51
red23
Next point, do you have anything?
00:50:53
Jen
my I mean, that rather was my next point. If I if i were to go for a more general one, ah son I sort of find the instances in this episode where Tuvok is, you know, a bit more broken down by it all, you know, defenses down and, you know, his danger phase.
00:50:56
red23
Okay.
00:51:15
Jen
I find it almost personizes Tuvok more. You actually to understand or feel a little bit more of what he's thinking and feeling, and that's that's an unusual opportunity with a Vulcan.
00:51:19
red23
Yeah.
00:51:29
red23
He's not invincible, even know though he seems like
00:51:31
Jen
I see the personisation of Tuvok makes him relatable ironically, and probably brings him closer to Neelix, his morale officer.
00:51:41
red23
and Yeah, well, i'll I mean, I'll just throw in one of my points, but I thought it was something that I really related to is like his... Oh, where's the... Sorry, I was just trying to find... His line, which was, crime must have a logical purpose. He really kind of drives himself crazy trying to understand why this guy committed the crime and um I feel like I can a little bit relate to that not that I would say but you know when bad things are happening I can spend way too much trying trying to figure out why or what drives this or what led this and like the thing and like uh and like okay that person that was really horrible so whatever blah blah blah
00:52:13
Jen
take
00:52:17
Jen
or finding a cause I'll see.
00:52:24
red23
I think as I got older, I see a bit more like, yes, there could have been a lot of interventions, but probably in very early childhood, which no one pays attention to.
00:52:30
Jen
like
00:52:33
red23
But by the time people are killing people, they need to be removed from society, in my opinion.
00:52:37
Jen
Hmm.
00:52:39
red23
But you can kind of just go around in circles in your brain or get sucked into
00:52:48
Jen
and I mean one of one of my favourite sayings is there's no point trying to find a pattern in the colour of madness.
00:52:55
red23
Oh, I've never heard that, but that does make sense.
00:52:57
Jen
ah It's basically to say not all things have causality that can be understood.
00:53:03
red23
Yeah, and that's, that's... And sometimes you like, over time you'll see general patterns, like, okay, a bad childhood or neglect or, you know, it will increase the chances of some things, I think, but...
00:53:12
Jen
guys yeah
00:53:18
red23
at the end of the day if someone did something maybe just focus on like protecting everyone else and trying to deal with that in the most humane way but um I related a bit to that.
00:53:19
Jen
um
00:53:23
Jen
but
00:53:29
red23
Well here's going.
00:53:29
Jen
It's just human nature there, isn't it? Human fascination, wanting to know why. I guess that's why there are all those true crime stuff is so popular because you just have to know curiosity.
00:53:41
red23
Exactly I think There's like a people sometimes mistaken. Well, you know, think that they, I don't know. There's like a, well, maybe they bad motivations for being interested in that kind of thing. But I think a lot of people are like, I want to make sure that doesn't happen to me.
00:53:54
red23
I don't also want to know why people are driven to do those things. So like what, what warning signs, what, what, you know, like the whole, but well, maybe that's how I approach it.
00:54:02
Jen
yeah but Yeah, but I think it's almost sequential. It's not they want to to know the two things separately. And it's almost they want to know why it happens so that they can ensure it doesn't happen.
00:54:13
red23
Yes, exactly, exactly.
00:54:14
Jen
And that that's a sequential causality that I think is an important factor in the way that people try and give themselves a sensation of control. Dear God, I sound like the vampire in the Matrix 2.
00:54:27
Jen
The sequential causality of it. Ultimately all we have is causality.
00:54:32
red23
Aya, causality!
00:54:34
Jen
You know, I see it as more than that though. It's not just a about, so it doesn't happen to you. I think it's just like human nature and it's, it ah yeah, it can lead to a bad place, but it's actually one of the reasons why we've evolved beyond other species because we want to understand stuff you know like this is how we've made all of our advances just like sheer curiosity and wanting to find out about you know the universe um so i guess you know commute to bad places but also not simply good
00:55:01
red23
Yeah.
00:55:05
red23
Yes, because I mean, other human behavior is like really fascinating.
00:55:05
Jen
yes iverse
00:55:09
red23
Yeah. Okay. I mean think I have one or two more points.
00:55:11
Jen
three
00:55:14
red23
Jenny, how are you going? I'm ready for another one.
00:55:16
Jen
We're finally reaching the end stretch of this enormous round of points. I see at the time I was like, this is good because I felt like the last couple of episodes, I haven't had that much to say. so um But really mine a quick one, just ah because I felt like telling you guys when I watched this episode,
00:55:33
Jen
It just happened to be like a massive, dark, stormy, lightning, everything inside.
00:55:39
red23
Oh, creepy.
00:55:40
Jen
So was perfect weather. Amazing. And that's all I had at that point. I just wanted to tell you.
00:55:45
red23
Oh, amazing. Perfect viewing conditions. ah Jamie, anything to add or your next point?
00:55:50
Jen
Oh, let's see. Let's see. Let's see.
00:56:00
Jen
Well, I've always
00:56:05
Jen
wondered, is it, do we truly feel that it is, sorry, again, I'm going to go on one of these dark philosophical ones in contrast to Jenny's. So she set the scene where the door would darken stormy nice and now I'm going to make a dark and solid point. To what degree do we hold Souter culpable if it's his own genetic nature which he can't change that's made him violent in this?
00:56:32
Jen
Because obviously at the start, oh gosh, he's terrifying. he's is it Isn't it he not terrifying? Well, we know that it don't know that it is him, but it seems very clear.
00:56:44
Jen
But then once he's unveiled, and we know and we know that he doesn't have a choice, to what degree do we hold him culpable for his actions?
00:56:56
Jen
I suppose it's the difference between he's in prison and we hate him, and he's in prison and we're indifferent to him.
00:56:56
red23
Well, I mean, yes, I mean, they that final scene where he, I guess he's, when Tuba comes to execute him, breaks free from sickbay.
00:57:09
Jen
yeah
00:57:09
red23
And Suda's like, well, you're not gonna feel any better and you'll just be controlled by the violence. like again And you get some empathy by him because he does seem to be living a life where he has these impulses that he feels he can't control.
00:57:22
Jen
um
00:57:25
red23
And to be at the mercy of that sounds pretty awful.
00:57:28
Jen
Yeah. Yeah.
00:57:29
red23
But I would say over time in my life, my idea has shifted to whether he's culpable or not is irrelevant. He cannot be in free society if he's going to kill people for how they look at him.
00:57:41
red23
like
00:57:42
Jen
Ah, but that's just a sign of something and i'm I'm thinking on an interpersonal view.
00:57:47
red23
But I mean, does it for me, it doesn't really matter whether it's like if he was born that way and he can't control it, Or if he was raised and something happened and he this is how he copes now.
00:57:57
Jen
but yeah But then that that almost shifts away from punishment to just containment.
00:57:59
red23
like
00:58:04
red23
Yeah, but that's that's how I see ah prisons and stuff.
00:58:07
Jen
and But we ah we almost rob individuals of their agency.
00:58:08
red23
i mean
00:58:12
Jen
that instance. I'm not arguing that that's right or wrong, by the way, I'm just seeing the ins and outs of it.
00:58:17
red23
I think, I mean, I want to protect more people. I don't want more people to die. A guy like that, this character specifically, is going to kill more people.
00:58:24
Jen
and
00:58:26
red23
Like, it just is, right?
00:58:27
Jen
Yeah, I don't think anyone would argue they should be out and yeah little I guess it's just more I think January has the same issue, doesn't she? yeah so Trying to work out what to do with him because they're like, well,
00:58:38
Jen
are we literally going to keep him in the brig for the next, I suppose, what they think is going to be 75 years of travelling on the ship, like, like considering their situation, it's not so feasible. So then she was like, oh, but yeah, obviously we're not going to execute. So yeah, it's obviously, he's a danger to society, so we can't let him sort of run free. But yeah, it's how far do you go in, you know, is this something that we can be trying to rehabilitate people, not at risk of others, but um like well yeah what other options are there?
00:59:08
red23
No, no.
00:59:16
red23
Yeah, again, I've just listened to, I mean, I'm not saying this is the correct opinion, but I've listened to a lot of them.
00:59:21
Jen
sit
00:59:22
red23
I think I used to be more into the idea of rehabilitation.
00:59:25
Jen
snow
00:59:26
red23
I'm talking about violent crime here.
00:59:28
Jen
few
00:59:29
red23
And now I'm just like,
00:59:32
Jen
but for all this and
00:59:32
red23
Yeah, there's some cases cases where i would I think, personally, that that person would was really pushed to the extreme and would never, in any other situation, resort to violence.
00:59:39
Jen
when
00:59:43
red23
But there are other people that have answers to easily answer. So this is my opinion. That's all. But what do you think, Jamie?
00:59:54
Jen
Red, have you been killing people dismembering their bodies and leaving them on the Star Trek starship?
00:59:55
red23
Because you raised the question.
01:00:01
red23
No, I definitely have. I mean, for many reasons, but just no. But what do you think, Jamie? You raised the question.
01:00:07
Jen
Ah, well, I think it always raises the the question of the degree to which individuals are morally guilty for things beyond their control, which I don't have an answer to. I think contextual causality always has an impact in how one judges the moral culpability of individuals and also what is an appropriate response to individual's actions, positive, negative or otherwise. and so
01:00:41
Jen
It's not a straight cut and dried, and it's almost a situational thing. Like, for for instance, would we be blaming Suta if a mind-controlling alien took over his body? And, in fact, we found out he had a parasite for, you know, his entire life that took over his body and just generating these imposters of violence. He killed people, and then, you know, it left control of him. He was left to deal with the consequences.
01:01:07
Jen
And if that's the case, then okay, so we wouldn't hold him morally culpable. But then the flip side of that is what's the difference between that and his own nature having his weird fits that leave him violent and those sorts of things, and that being a disease as opposed to a choice.
01:01:24
Jen
And so I think, I feel like a massive toolbag when I say the contextual causality of it impacts to what degree we find him a progress
01:01:27
red23
Yeah, there's still a lot of you don't know.
01:01:37
red23
you a mind ah You reminded me of a random article, and I'm not gonna try find the link, but you can always Google it, but on Psychology Today, I once came across an article where this being infected by this parasite, or I think it was a parasite, was linked to like caused anorexia.
01:01:38
Jen
So.
01:01:50
Jen
yes and
01:01:57
red23
I mean, that is crazy.
01:01:59
Jen
no That's counts.
01:01:59
red23
like ah That was really crazy. I mean, I can't say how well we...
01:02:06
Jen
just
01:02:07
red23
But not like, I think it was anorexia. yeah make this up like ah and Something that would be considered a mental health condition was caused by this parasite.
01:02:13
Jen
Yeah.
01:02:17
Jen
Yeah.
01:02:18
red23
And they got treated with antibiotics or whatever it takes, and then they were fine.
01:02:21
Jen
one
01:02:22
red23
It was like, that's crazy.
01:02:23
Jen
yeah And there's ah there's quite a few episodes of House where that happens.
01:02:27
red23
Ah, house.
01:02:28
Jen
The only ones who are attractive, 16, 17 year old girls are going after him because they've gotten a parasite in their eye from South American jungle. The whole mental health thing is quite interesting area that I have worked in it in various areas, and particularly a couple of times in schizophrenia.
01:02:44
Jen
And what's fascinating about things like some mental health disorders like schizophrenia, years and years ago, we had no idea, wouldn't have no idea, we would have judged that as the same as more I guess we did now would just judge like, I don't know, depression or something, although that's not a good example.
01:02:59
Jen
But basically, now we know you they can actually see the physiologic differences in the brain scans.
01:03:02
red23
Yeah, yeah.
01:03:05
Jen
So actually, there was a uh, specific biological difference.
01:03:09
red23
Yeah.
01:03:09
Jen
Um, they're the same as if someone has got a tumor growing and got cancer. And so with all mental illness, I'm a little bit like, you just, we don't know yet. That's the thing.
01:03:20
Jen
Like whatever it is, you have no idea. It's the same with like Alzheimer's with, you know, it's, it's quite, so I always say the same thing to myself. Well, it'd be quite arrogant to assume that, um, well, that's just like, um, someone's personality or a mood disorder or Because we don't know that.
01:03:35
Jen
We don't know everything there is to know about the brain yet. We're still discovering new things. And it might not even be a brain thing. We're still discovering things about, um like, the, the, our metabolism and the chronology that we didn't know before.
01:03:47
Jen
So, um, I don't know what my point was really, but it's interesting.
01:03:51
red23
No, I 100% understand. Yeah.
01:03:53
Jen
it doesn't
01:03:54
red23
I was, I was going to, it's kind of like, we just, there's a lot of stuff we don't know, but then it's also like, there is, there's like, like, if we knew everything, would everyone be a perfect human being?
01:04:04
red23
If we could treat them or would there still be human nature and selfishness and like greed and things that would motivate like less, doesn't it?
01:04:05
Jen
and
01:04:10
Jen
Yeah. but
01:04:13
Jen
But but um so understanding colors, how we react to people, like it's always, you know, it's always a different situation. Like this man is being a complete asshole. He's he's drunk and he's loud and he's swearing.
01:04:28
Jen
If we don't have any understanding, then we're like, he's a drunken asshole. If I find out that, for instance, his mother died last night in a car accident in which someone drunk, you know, drove her over, his behaviour is behaving, it makes sense. He's not drunk at all. He has Tourette's and it's in the drawer. There's just so many factors.
01:04:47
red23
Well, we live in London where we see probably all kinds of crazy things and it probably, well, doesn't bother us. and It's like, okay.
01:04:53
Jen
Also, trend the tone of the tolerance is different because the understanding is it' different.
01:04:57
red23
Okay.
01:04:59
Jen
I mean, I'm not advocating that means you shouldn't be here.
01:05:00
red23
Like, okay.
01:05:04
Jen
Taking people who are violent and putting them away from society is more just like an interesting topic. It changes to how you deal with them. Maybe.
01:05:12
red23
I think it's,
01:05:12
Jen
I mean, there's a Star Trek episode later that we'll go on to, which is really interesting if it relates strongly. And I always find this fascinating. um lay much later than, you know, one of my favorite characters.
01:05:23
red23
but
01:05:23
Jen
and But there's a guy who, um you know, is sentenced to death in some other culture. And he, they discover, has like a genetic, you know, mutation and that actually causes him to be violent.
01:05:30
red23
Oh yes!
01:05:37
Jen
And once they turn that off, he's completely switched around. And then there's all these like ramifications about like, what do we do now? And that's a really interesting one.
01:05:48
red23
This is why we won Star Trek!
01:05:50
Jen
Yeah. And that's, that's the whole, how comfortable are people for any question? And then do you treat them? Is that treating? Anyway, it's so many yeah kind of worms. So I find this episode to be a really depth exploration of these themes.
01:06:06
red23
Did you say exploration again? I couldn't hear it.
01:06:07
Jen
I was trying to link back to that as a way of being like, see how we're deep.
01:06:13
red23
Well, okay. I'm going to quickly go on to this.
01:06:15
Jen
Good idea.
01:06:16
red23
This could be my last point if I, but I always have a bonus point, but, um, I did love this scene when, uh, Tuvok is now in sick bay when he like warned everyone, he, you know, he removed all his security codes that are located himself and it's wrong, whatever.
01:06:29
red23
but And he gets, um, sedated, I guess, and moved to sick bay. And he there was they revive him, but with all his emotional suppression gone.
01:06:39
Jen
so funny
01:06:40
red23
And he is, i my in my notes, it's like, oh no, who's smiling now? Because he's smiling a lot after, like Neelix was trying to make him, well fake Neelix was trying to make him smile.
01:06:45
Jen
on i done thats okay
01:06:51
red23
but he He's really like, um, it's just so much, there's so much about the scene that's so good. Firstly, I think Tim Ross as an actor must have just really enjoyed playing this version of Two Buck because he's so different.
01:06:59
Jen
join yes so Yeah.
01:07:02
red23
He's like so powerful, but like in a different way.
01:07:06
Jen
Yeah.
01:07:07
red23
He's like tapping into all his like negative emotion, I would say, to drive his like projectors, like power.
01:07:11
Jen
yeah
01:07:13
red23
And he's threatening the doctor and he's mean to Janeway.
01:07:18
Jen
so
01:07:19
red23
He's like, um And I just thought it was really good and really ah fun for the actor. And also just like, he really, like, one thing that stood out to me was how much anger and emotion that I'm not in touch with at all is like so powerful because he's trying to get out of the, um the warp, not the warp field, the like security field or something, force field.
01:07:29
Jen
see
01:07:43
Jen
They own the force field.
01:07:46
red23
And he like, he, I mean, he can't get up, but he's like,
01:07:47
Jen
Really doesn't.
01:07:51
red23
for 10 seconds while the medication or whatever, the treatment is kicking in. He's like trying to, you know, he's interacting with that force field, which can't be, normally people like recoil, right?
01:07:57
Jen
employment
01:08:01
red23
Like they don't try.
01:08:01
Jen
Yeah.
01:08:03
red23
So he, he was like this really terrifying, powerful version of Tuvok in this scene for me.
01:08:07
Jen
That must have been really satisfying to act.
01:08:11
red23
But I really enjoyed it.
01:08:19
red23
Yeah. Because from what I understand, you know, I sometimes say, well, I'm not an actor, don't think about acting, but something different is always good from what I can tell.
01:08:27
Jen
Yeah.
01:08:30
red23
and need A new emotion. Right. Does anyone have any final points they want to add before we go to themes, Jenny?
01:08:35
Jen
speak
01:08:36
red23
You look like you might.
01:08:37
Jen
I do. Do we have time? out Yes.
01:08:39
red23
Yes, of course.
01:08:40
Jen
Yes. Well, I have one final quick point, but also, Brad, I just have to say, you have just made me really have a moment in my childhood with the description of this acting. So um I also know nothing about acting, just to be clear.
01:08:54
Jen
um But when I was younger, I did i was very shy. and And so I actually went to a drama school ah just like a, you know, not not a stage score or anything like that, just not after school, once a week kind of thing, um um for a couple of years.
01:09:10
Jen
um And I remember they cast me in this little play um as the bad guy. um Yeah. And um it was just so enjoyable to play.
01:09:23
Jen
Like, I don't know why, but this guy was angry and violent.
01:09:24
red23
Oh, amazing.
01:09:29
Jen
ah and i was there saying ah And yeah, it was great.
01:09:31
red23
Yeah.
01:09:34
Jen
It was great fun. Like, and so I i can only imagine that was like a millionth of what to enjoy.
01:09:40
red23
That's so interesting. And That is really interesting. And also ah recently, I think I've only had this idea once or twice, like, oh, if you play that kind of character, you get to behave that kind of way for a while.
01:09:53
red23
That must be fun.
01:09:54
Jen
Yeah, yeah.
01:09:54
red23
So you had like a first hand fix.
01:09:56
Jen
It was, yeah, and I was very proud because in my teeny tiny little town, there was a write-up in the newspaper and I got a, I think they said, so and so myself was particularly good, X, Y, Z, and I was like, oh, come here, clearly, I do well with being violent.
01:10:10
red23
Oh.
01:10:21
Jen
I remember that. Oh, I think you should do some hundred other things. But it was really fun.
01:10:29
red23
Yeah, going on here?
01:10:29
Jen
You know, you'd remind me. It was good fun. yeah ah you But my actual last point was um the quote that read, I think you all know well, which I love, which I assume two books that I kind of remember now.
01:10:41
Jen
But and the whole like idea about if you can't control your violence, your emotions, then your emotions control you.
01:10:45
red23
Oh, yes.
01:10:48
Jen
And I have at times find that found that useful to remember.
01:10:48
red23
Yes.
01:10:53
Jen
um That was it, really.
01:10:55
red23
It's a good, it's a good, I mean, yes, I feel like I might live my life that way, but no, I might've lost touch with my emotions, but again, that's a different podcast.
01:11:01
Jen
I think I'm too far, too far the other way. It's a matter of, isn't it? i ignore them
01:11:09
red23
Yeah, exactly. ah Jamie, any final points?
01:11:14
Jen
Let's see. Ah. I mean, this was a long, long one, so you don't have to...
01:11:21
red23
Before we go. Oh, you don't have to, yeah.
01:11:24
Jen
Yeah, I mean, I just wanted to comment on students call dead eyes. But that said, obviously you read.
01:11:33
red23
Well, I think let's just wrap up with themes quickly.
01:11:35
Jen
but
01:11:36
red23
I think we've touched on a lot of themes already, but Janie, anything you want to crystallize or summarize?
01:11:38
Jen
yeah I mean, I would really like to articulate a word that I'm told that he's far too often.
01:11:42
red23
or
01:11:48
Jen
That idea of contextual causality on moral culpability. Was it an expiration of it? No, I just like to make the point that it's impactful.
01:12:02
Jen
um
01:12:02
red23
You just like to say the word causality one more time.
01:12:04
Jen
I would just like to accept the thanks of a grateful co-podcasting audience for bringing my philosophy degree to some use at long last approximately 20 years after having it.
01:12:15
red23
Wow.
01:12:18
red23
Did you study philosophy?
01:12:20
Jen
I, philosophy, politics and economics.
01:12:22
red23
Oh, PPE.
01:12:23
Jen
PB stands for Pittsburgh economist, according to David Hayes.
01:12:24
red23
Nice.
01:12:26
red23
ah I always thought that degree sounded so interesting.
01:12:30
Jen
Yeah, me too. But yeah, the philosophy of it. um So yeah, I think that, I think, i I suspect you will all cover those, the other questions in it, but I think restoratively, rehabilitatively, restitution of justice also.
01:12:50
Jen
rears its ugly tripartite head as a topic. a But here I was stopped before everyone leaves from our 19 new podcast listeners in LA to assume unbearable British pretension on my phone, obviously. I'm sure they'll be thrilled for this extra little one because clearly because it was such a good episode. Yeah, yes. I think it was coming attached to all my themes already read you know like we sort of covered like accepting the illogical and the whole natural violent tendency tendencies and that's unnatural in our civilized world in a way and all these kind of things.
01:13:28
red23
Yeah, I think, yes, I agree. I think the one thing that I didn't mention above was, um well, the justice versus vengeance.
01:13:30
Jen
ah
01:13:38
red23
I guess we get a bit of that in two places. One way too much is questioning Suda's sentence saying his three sisters are probably, sorry, Frank Darwin's three sisters are probably don't think being confined to your quarters would be enough.
01:13:53
Jen
and
01:13:54
red23
ah But then also there's the vengeance justice thing when to what goes to execute sort of but I do think it it does again from all my time in this true crime world I find it interesting sometimes you notice that some ah families or victims they just want someone to pay they they don't actually know if that person is guilty and sometimes that person is acquitted and they find the real killer or something
01:14:13
Jen
I've watched it before. That's guilty, I've seen it happen.
01:14:23
red23
And um just the idea of those three sisters, okay?
01:14:23
Jen
And you had two girls.
01:14:26
red23
In this case, in this episode, we know that pseudo is definitely um guilty, but it's almost like how do you separate wanting someone to pay with someone?
01:14:32
Jen
yeah but but You
01:14:38
red23
I don't know, I think it can just also derail you slightly, I guess. um Because that's a kind of vengeance. There's a vengeance where you can act out and do something bad, like execute someone to fulfill your own maybe violent impulse.
01:14:51
red23
But this idea of vengeance, making someone pay, and you could be getting the wrong person to pay, I just find interesting.
01:14:59
Jen
Yeah. And that, you know, it's interesting that the episode I mentioned earlier yeah had this other interesting facet and the sense that this guy who's sentenced to be executed, the jury um in that society, in that particular alien society, were the family of the victim.
01:15:15
red23
a Oh, Oh.
01:15:16
Jen
And that's how they they decided. So basically, in this system, everyone was always executed. we could so victim Yeah, felt strongly.
01:15:22
red23
Yes, exactly. I don't think the family you should have that much to say, but I've never been a victim or had anyone I know.
01:15:29
Jen
Yeah, but the family is not objective. The family will never be objective.
01:15:31
red23
Yeah, it's very hard. I mean, the family of the accused, the family of the victims, it's very hard for them to be objective.
01:15:37
Jen
Yeah, that's why they're not the jury, typically.
01:15:39
red23
Slight tangent though. ah Right. Are we ready for star player?
01:15:46
Jen
Yeah.
Highlighting Acting Skills and Performances
01:15:48
red23
Jenny, you're ready. Good.
01:15:49
Jen
Yes, I like, because quite often I don't know who to pick, so I quite like it when I have a clue. I definitely am going for Zuna, because
01:15:57
red23
Oh, amazing.
01:15:57
Jen
And I just think of that actor as, does a brilliant job. Um, and every, every time he's in any of the episodes, I, I always find it interesting, like whatever scene, whatever's going on, um, he seems to make it really engaging, which I think is a great accomplishment for an actor.
01:16:07
red23
Yes.
01:16:14
Jen
So yeah.
01:16:14
red23
He was great. Jamie.
01:16:17
Jen
Uh, Neelix for almost instigating my first known Star Trek. ah Vulcan orgy as I'm around this time, guys.
01:16:27
red23
I thought you were finally gonna say he likes for finally getting me to be like not wanting to die or something but no that's not what you wanted.
01:16:37
Jen
Red. That would be an insightful, mature take on this episode, which is not what I'm here to bring.
01:16:45
red23
Well I would say mine is not that mature either but okay obviously I'm gonna have to propose Tuvok or Tivaras as a stop here but for a very very specific reason like
01:16:54
Jen
she
01:16:58
red23
In this episode, you know, like putting your hands on someone's face and saying my mind to your mind, my mind could be so corny. And yet, like in that final mind melt season, I was like wincing because I could feel like the pain and the trauma.
01:17:14
red23
I was like, I really believe this mind melt thing is happening. That is good acting from these two guys.
01:17:17
Jen
but you and Yeah, that's true. When is something so over done and over? known so well and overused, like, at least in the Star Trek world, like, it is impressive that you can do it without, like, that cringe on you.
01:17:27
red23
Yeah.
01:17:32
red23
I really believed it was happening. ah Like, yeah, so.
01:17:34
Jen
Yeah. Do you know, I have to say, I also got that from the, um, I was very impressed with the, uh, in the Star Trek movies, um, when, uh, oh, I forgotten the axis name, but he's playing, uh, two,
Modern Star Trek Performances and Technical Humor
01:17:52
Jen
two of them, I guess.
01:17:52
red23
Two. Or Vulcan.
01:17:54
Jen
but tovo i'm sorry
01:17:54
red23
Are you talking about the newish movies?
01:17:56
Jen
And he does
01:17:57
red23
Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, yes, yes.
01:18:00
Jen
this whole line that's just like this immortal line of, you know, he thinks Kirk's dead and he says, gone. And like, you know, it's like really, really well known.
01:18:12
Jen
And I just think he does it brilliantly. And I was like, that's such an achievement, such an achievement, because, you know, I'm sure there will be a lot of people who disagree, but that's something.
01:18:13
red23
Oh, yeah.
01:18:22
red23
Are you talking about the film The Wrath of Khan, or is this the more recent films?
01:18:24
Jen
um
01:18:26
Jen
ah the horizon the modern one The modern one. Yeah, I'm thinking of.
01:18:29
red23
Oh, okay, okay.
01:18:30
Jen
um Yeah, the cases mixed up
01:18:31
red23
I do think the guy that got to play the vol them to play Spock was very good in those new ones.
01:18:36
Jen
yeah the guy who's in Heroes. Did you ever see Heroes? And he plays a villain in that.
01:18:44
red23
Yeah, I definitely don't know his name.
01:18:45
Jen
Oh, Zachary. Zachary Quinter. Yeah.
01:18:51
red23
Oh, okay.
01:18:51
Jen
A name from the billboard that, um, shelon cole oh take my theory sorry getting ti of choping up
01:19:00
red23
um Okay, as I said, I don't have the jingle. It's not available for some. Oh, maybe because it's a new laptop.
01:19:06
Jen
We could mime it and like, you know, we could sing it in the style of a club singer to do the whole, you know.
01:19:08
red23
But just
01:19:13
red23
Do the square dancing at least.
01:19:13
Jen
We could all go do dodoooo to me and to the voyage of theme. Someone get up on their phone and play the voyage of theme.
01:19:21
red23
No, no, no. I don't want to get any paramount whatever, gonna get it get to trouble.
01:19:26
Jen
ah
01:19:26
red23
So we're gonna say goodbye and stay on.
01:19:27
Jen
Okay, that's just good. Bye-bye.
01:19:32
red23
Don't go anywhere.