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We watch "Lifesigns" (S2 Ep.19)
7 Plays19 days ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Lifesigns”, where the Doctor gets to experience a human condition - puberty! And finally suffers like the rest of us :--)
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at [email protected].
Theme music by Alain D
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Initial Thoughts
00:00:00
Red D
Oh, yes, I do seem nervous because.
00:00:01
El Platypo
The crowd save bolts are back. You wind.
00:00:06
Red D
Oh, my God.
00:00:08
Red D
I remember that song. or Am I just mentioning it? Well, yes, welcome back.
00:00:11
El Platypo
You're ruining this.
00:00:14
Red D
Yeah, sorry, I've forgotten how this works and I've had a very long week, so I can't say that my moderating skills would be very good. But welcome back, everybody. and This week we are reviewing or talking about episode
00:00:25
El Platypo
Hey!
00:00:28
Red D
ah Science of life? No, life science? What's it called?
00:00:35
Red D
Life science. No, they are. I'm sorry. It was a long week.
00:00:35
El Platypo
Are there any signs of life from our moderator?
00:00:41
Red D
Life science.
00:00:42
El Platypo
Does our intro normally last that long? I thought it was like a bit long.
00:00:44
Red D
It sometimes lasts longer. It's really just when I feel like it's time to cut the music. I'm acting like I'm a mini DJ, but like, okay, I can feel the vibe drifting. Got to cut it all.
00:00:55
El Platypo
I didn't feel the vibe drifting. I was there. I was finding my groove.
00:00:58
Red D
Okay, we can always play it again.
00:01:00
El Platypo
Can we can we do that again?
00:01:00
Red D
um
00:01:01
El Platypo
Does I really want to you know properly you know lean into that?
00:01:04
Red D
Okay, everybody, this is a audio podcast, but Jamie's gonna do some dancing now.
Episode Summary and Themes
00:01:12
Red D
Jenny, I think for the listeners, could you please describe what Jamie's wearing and what he's doing?
00:01:17
El Platypo
but
00:01:17
Jen
It's wearing very fashionable, voguesque, 10-pound habitat rug.
00:01:29
Jen
As if you were...
00:01:29
Red D
I believe he's doing the Tyrannosaurus Rex or something.
00:01:32
Jen
Yeah, the T-Rex, the T-Rex move.
00:01:34
Red D
T-Rex.
00:01:36
Jen
And, you know, the rug is worn in the fashion of Darth... something. Darth... not Darth Vader.
00:01:43
Jen
Which... or is it Yoda? I don't know.
00:01:43
Red D
Yes.
00:01:45
Red D
Yes, he's claiming to be from Star Wars, but I think he's more Elvish in that ah green hooded blanket thing.
00:01:46
Jen
Isn't it?
00:01:50
Jen
No, no, no. Legolas.
00:01:52
El Platypo
Legolas's hip-hop, I want to hear nothing else.
00:01:55
Red D
Yeah, there we go. Make it rhyme. Make it rhyme.
00:01:57
El Platypo
I am disappointed in my fellow co-hosts for not embracing the T-Rex Legolas look.
00:01:59
Jen
Oh man, it's the Jedi's who wear the hoods, isn't it? Not the bad guys. Isn't it like Obi-Wan or?
00:02:06
El Platypo
Well, this has ah this has been a coaching start, people.
00:02:10
Red D
Okay, so just to remind everyone, we're here with the three of us to talk about season two, episode 19, life signs. What an episode, I think. Um, we're gonna go over to you.
00:02:20
El Platypo
Which series?
00:02:22
Red D
Season two, as I said.
00:02:22
El Platypo
and No, no, no, it's in which program?
00:02:25
Red D
Oh, very good point. Thank you, Jamie. Star Trek Voyager.
00:02:30
Red D
Is that what you meant?
00:02:30
Jen
Why should you say that?
00:02:32
El Platypo
Yes.
00:02:33
Red D
Okay, very good.
00:02:33
El Platypo
I mean, you you sounded dubious about whether it was Star Trek Voyager, so I thought I'd home in on that point.
00:02:38
Red D
Yes, our favorites. I see here, well, Jamie, just over to you first. Are you ready to give everyone a one minute salary?
00:02:46
El Platypo
Yes, and I was going to go with if Croton from Red Dwarf had a heart and was the galaxy's best surgeon, met someone, turned them into a hologram and fell in love with them, you're not a million miles away from what happens in this episode, but unfortunately it actually touched me a good deal more deeply than that. So this explores the journey of the Doctor As the intrepid crew of Star Trek Voyager find a Vidian floating in the void on her way back from a medical mission of mercy and an abit to prolong her life, the Doctor transfers her consciousness via a biocortical stimulator that enhances her brainwaves into a hologram and gives her the chance to experience being healthy and whole.
00:03:34
El Platypo
moving with her through her journey of recovery. During this period, the doctor and the patient develop feelings for each other and we go with them on the journey that ensues from the tragic plot generator of the fact that she must eventually leave this hologrammatic healthy form and return to her body, which has the Vedian phage
00:04:00
Red D
Amazing, but Janie, I have to ask, you live with this guy, right?
00:04:06
Red D
ah That was very good, Janie, but.
00:04:08
El Platypo
Hang on, I want to find out why you're doubting that Jenny lives
Character Arcs and Real-world Parallels
00:04:12
El Platypo
with me.
00:04:12
Red D
Well, you just, a lot of big words. I was like, does he always talk like this?
00:04:15
Jen
Yes?
00:04:19
Red D
But brilliant synopsis.
00:04:20
El Platypo
Sometimes I do it in a New Zealand accent.
00:04:23
Red D
Even more entertaining.
00:04:23
El Platypo
For some reason I find myself talking about data and things like that.
00:04:27
Red D
Oh, I do see. No, that's not good.
00:04:29
El Platypo
No, you say data. Definitely data.
00:04:31
Red D
ah think I think I've, yes, I think I've trained or been trained, but when I arrived from, a fresh from the boat from South Africa and joined the startup, I got laughed at, laughed at for sake, doctor.
00:04:42
El Platypo
Did you come on a boat from South Africa?
00:04:45
Red D
Yes. The love boat.
00:04:49
El Platypo
Zinga!
00:04:51
Red D
My favorite show.
00:04:51
El Platypo
Which is not a bad metaphor for for what this video in the ship becomes for the Doctor. So very topical.
00:04:58
Red D
Yeah. Yeah. My brain is not the fastest tonight, but I will try my best.
00:05:04
Jen
I
00:05:04
Red D
But I think, Janie, it looks like someone, I think it's you, might've put in a one cool thing.
00:05:07
Jen
dunno.
00:05:09
Red D
m
00:05:09
El Platypo
i I mean I did I don't know if it's cool though it's sort of a contextual detail because we have this episode this yeah it seems like we have this episode which is actually really poignant really touching
00:05:16
Red D
It seems like a one downer thing.
00:05:26
El Platypo
talks about the journey of someone into life and the journey of someone back into life, but also poignancy and loss. And you have this beautiful moment of the end, this last dance between the doctor and Dinara the Vidian.
00:05:41
El Platypo
and it's a metaphor for life and death and the dance of existence and it ends in this beautiful beautiful contemplative silence that you have at the end of many episodes of Voyager before the music cuts in, brings you back to yourself and the credit comes up. Unfortunately during the silence you had the producer's name and then the moment that the music cuts in and you all bang back into life It goes, loud music, Rick Gianasso, Gigolo Credit.
00:06:10
El Platypo
The first and only thing one sees is that's there. And it's just like, ah, yes.
00:06:14
Red D
Oh, the guy from Sandrine's.
00:06:18
Red D
I guess.
00:06:18
El Platypo
And it's literally the first thing your attention has pulled back to at the end of the end of that, which I feel is unfortunate editing.
00:06:24
Red D
Oh, that is funny. I mean um mean, I might have to go rewatch that, but that is funny. um Yeah, I didn't I didn't notice that.
00:06:30
Jen
Yeah, I missed that.
00:06:34
El Platypo
I know. But the rest of it was just utterly, utterly beautiful. ah And I thought this was going to be an episode that I didn't particularly want to.
00:06:37
Red D
Oh.
00:06:41
El Platypo
um Because I want these ships to shoot each other and
00:06:42
Red D
Well, let's, before you dive in.
Mixed Reactions and Emotional Depth
00:06:46
El Platypo
navies and queues and things like that.
00:06:46
Red D
Yes.
00:06:48
El Platypo
And I think this is one of the episodes that gives Star Trigger a bit more than that, but I often find them boring. But you guys told me how you found it.
00:06:58
Red D
Well, yeah, I think moving on to our initial reactions, I'm just going to stick to my order that I've jotted down here on the paper, but you've already broached this topic, I guess, Jamie, but Jenny, your initial reactions to this episode.
00:07:09
Jen
I thought it was not bad I wasn't one of my top top ones but I enjoyed it so medium medium good
00:07:21
El Platypo
really interesting i
00:07:24
Red D
Jamie, you sound like you thought it was a really great episode. So initial reactions?
00:07:27
El Platypo
thought it was awful couldn't stand it don't know what everyone's so happy about no i thought it was wonderful um it's sort of I mean, I thought the doctor acted it superbly. I thought Kess actually brought a degree of touch and tenderness and innocence to it. I thought actually the guest actor for Dinara, I think it's Pell, the Indian physician, just brought so much touch and feeling to it. It was, I found it really, really beautiful and there's
00:08:00
El Platypo
Appointancy to I mean the narrative driver of the fact that Thanks to the doctor's intervention, this woman gets to re-experience being healthy, but can't stay in that hologrammatic healthy state for too long because her natural body will degrade and she needs to be re-uploaded in. um And that sort of accelerates or drives the natural conclusion of their inevitable loss once her time in the hologram is is ended and she goes back to her video people.
00:08:37
El Platypo
which is point touching because it's also a tragic thing because this woman chooses differently to her species and that's what we made clear earlier.
00:08:37
Red D
Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
00:08:47
El Platypo
Instead of, you know, constantly being okay with harvesting other creatures for the their organs in order to avoid the phage continuing, um she says to Bolana, who has most of the Haitian fear from the Bedeans, I'll only take your help if you're willing to do it.
00:09:07
Red D
Oh yeah, that's a really good point. And Jenny, I wanted to ask you, were you happy or scared to see the Vadians back?
00:09:15
Jen
Oh yeah, as soon as I heard the mention of a deer, I thought, oh no, no. But fortunately it wasn't one of those type, you know, where they're running for their lives from aliens that want to harvest their organs and seal their eyes to ditch their own bodies.
00:09:21
Red D
I know they will. Yes.
00:09:27
El Platypo
yeah Organ harvesting aliens. It's almost as bad as anobrobing aliens.
00:09:33
Red D
I know they're one of your least favorite. enemies or aliens.
00:09:38
Jen
Oh, they're horrible.
00:09:40
Red D
um Yes, initial reactions. I mean I do, this is another episode I do really like and I think I would just second everything that you said jane Jamie. I think something that I pick up, but I don't pick it up as much now ah because we watch the episodes quite far apart, like two weeks apart.
00:09:57
Red D
But when I'm binge watching, I will notice that, I don't know, it seems like the writers will pick a theme, like the right to death or the right to end your life. And then suddenly there'll be episodes all about similar topics.
00:10:08
Red D
It's ah almost as of like one episode sparked because we just had that episode with Q, right, where he was fighting for the right to commit suicide.
00:10:12
Jen
What.
00:10:14
Red D
And here she was like, I don't want to live anymore. So I think they're kind of similar.
00:10:18
El Platypo
Was that like a topical thing about assisted dying in the US at the stage where this was made?
00:10:18
Red D
and
00:10:23
Red D
Yeah, but my, my, my, kind of my point is I've sometimes wonder why don't they just like put that idea on a note card and be like, Oh yeah, yeah, we can do that when we haven't just done a themed episode. But, um, I do, I suppose that I, I think you only pick up already if you binge watching and obviously series weren't designed to be like that initially.
00:10:45
Red D
Um, okay. Well, let's dive into our like full on discussion. Um, so as usual, we just assuming listeners know a little bit about this episode and after Jamie's brilliant summary, they probably ah quite a bit more.
00:10:57
El Platypo
It's okay guys, I'm here all night
00:11:00
Red D
Uh, so Jenny, what did you want to ah discuss first?
00:11:05
Jen
Oh, well, the first thing on my list was how freaky it was, um hearing from the Vidian about how, well, in in our alien world, congregationing groups is considered a threat to public health.
00:11:19
Jen
That is a mind blowing statement because when we watched this, when we were teenagers, never ever would we have thought that we would live through that experience and that governmental stance
00:11:21
Red D
Yes.
00:11:30
Jen
And yet here we are four years after COVID and wow, we've lived in that environment.
00:11:32
Red D
yes
00:11:38
Jen
That is mind-blowing.
00:11:39
Red D
It is, and and also like the doctor's response, like a very wise policy or whatever he said. It was like, oh my gosh, I can really relate to this now because yes, as a teenager, could not have really related.
00:11:51
Jen
Yeah, it actually sends shivers down my spine thinking about it. Like but back then, if you could go back in time and be in that situation,
00:11:54
Red D
Yeah.
00:12:00
Jen
when you're a teenager watching this and someone, you know, gave to you from the future and told you that you were going to experience this, it would be kind of terrifying and feel kind of psyched by dystopian fantasy land, wouldn't it?
00:12:15
Red D
I think you would just be like, that's not possible. How can I even stop us from seeing our friends?
00:12:19
Jen
Hmm.
00:12:20
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:12:21
Red D
It would be kind of incomprehensible. But then it's amazing how quickly you adapt.
00:12:27
Jen
Hmm.
00:12:30
El Platypo
Yeah, I agree with that.
00:12:31
Red D
Jamie, anything to add?
00:12:32
El Platypo
No, either I mean, I agree with most of that. I think it's it's a weird one. It felt way less dystopian than we made it sound when we were in the middle of COVID. But so yeah, I guess it is pretty dystopian.
00:12:47
Red D
Yeah, I think you can get used to anything quite quickly, but then when you are out of it and then you get reminded how you never thought it was even possible, like watching this episode, I can understand your reaction.
00:12:56
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:13:00
Red D
I'm glad you brought it up because I did also that had a similar like reaction, but it didn't um actually write anything down. Jamie, ah over to you.
00:13:11
Red D
Anything, favorite moment?
00:13:12
El Platypo
and
00:13:13
Red D
What do you want to discuss?
00:13:14
El Platypo
Well I mean not necessarily my favorite but I had a plethora of favorite moments in this episode but I mean I put a bullet point which is just gushing. Ultimately, it was so beautiful. I think I gushed enough about that at the start. And I'm not here as the earnest one on the podcast. I'm rather here as the harlequin of mischief. um So I'm going to mention the fact that I love how stone cold the doctors deliveries of some of the lines are in this episode. I mean, I want friends of mine, some friends of mine who are very, very shy of asking for a gal to ask. So I mean, the moment is wonderful and perfect. So
00:13:52
El Platypo
Kess convinces the doctor um that he needs to acknowledge his feelings for ah you know this absolutely wonderful wonderful person who's come into his life and she talks about you need to tell her how you feel so she can tell you how she feels and it's wonderful it's tender and then the middle of a procedure in which the hologram and the doctor are both ah just standing over, you know, her body, like conducting brain surgery, he just goes, don't know, I'm attracted to you. How about it? Delivery just while he continues working on her brain. And I just find that the most stone cold delivery and absolutely hilarious. I think all times asking people out should be done in that term. And that would take all the lives out of it.
00:14:41
Red D
Well, I
Romantic Dynamics and Humor
00:14:42
Red D
definitely agree. I'm sorry to dive in here, but Cass's face while he's doing this is just so good.
00:14:45
El Platypo
Oh, it's priceless. So priceless.
00:14:48
Jen
I wrote that down as one of my points as well.
00:14:48
Red D
ah
00:14:51
Jen
Her face is hilarious.
00:14:56
Red D
It's so good. and Yes. ah I mean, you could just reach, like, why is he... Oh, sorry. Why am I getting all these notifications now?
00:15:04
El Platypo
It's probably because I sent you know sending loads of um links in the text that you were ignoring.
00:15:04
Red D
Let me just get rid of... What? No, it's just dumb, dumb work reminders. um Yeah, and let me see if I have anything else because I just, I did love that moment.
00:15:17
Red D
And I agree with you, Jamie. I think asking people out or letting them know your that your feelings would be so much easier if we could just do this very matter of fact way.
00:15:23
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:15:26
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:15:26
Red D
and
00:15:27
El Platypo
I agree. And next time I ask someone out, I'm going to do it that way. I suspect I shall not ever ask anyone out, but you know.
00:15:37
Jen
and
00:15:37
Red D
Yes.
00:15:39
El Platypo
Oh no, no, no.
00:15:39
Red D
Jenny, anything to say in response to Jamie's comment that he might ask someone else again?
00:15:44
El Platypo
No.
00:15:48
Red D
um um Okay, well, I think that that moment might come up again or like just some of the funny humor, but maybe I'll just throw in the some of his other funny lines is because when he has, he like, reset I don't think the right word is resuscitate.
00:15:57
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:16:03
Red D
So, and she's overwhelmed with emotion because she's so happy to look normal.
00:16:08
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:16:08
Red D
And she starts crying. He's like, why are you crying? I be, I mean, again, amazing delivery, not my delivery, but his delivery was so good there.
00:16:15
El Platypo
Yeah. Agreed.
00:16:20
Red D
um Okay, so I think I'll just jump in there, but I'm gonna go right back to the beginning. Well, I had a lot of questions at the beginning. Maybe I'll just wrap them up all into one point. So we had the opening sequence where Tom is doing his, you know, well, he's late, he's disrespectful.
00:16:36
El Platypo
Staggering in late hungover.
00:16:38
Red D
Yes. And he apparently delivered Nomi Wildman, the baby. Like, did he really do that?
00:16:42
El Platypo
and
00:16:44
Red D
Or was he just making that up? Do we know?
00:16:46
El Platypo
ah
00:16:48
Jen
I assume it's just a made up thing excuse because he's late but it seems like a really strange thing to choose because that would be so easy to prove wrong so I did find that a bit weird yeah maybe it's
00:16:51
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:16:57
El Platypo
I mean, I think he's doing it to be, to make a jest by how ridiculous it is.
00:16:58
Red D
Yes.
00:17:03
El Platypo
Cause obviously he wouldn't know anything about how to deliver someone's baby. So it's sort of meant to be there to take a piss out of the situation.
00:17:09
Jen
Yeah, it might be more of a, it's so wildly or obviously a lie that it's actually supposed to be funny and break the tension and then maybe Chikoto will laugh and then he'll be off to do it.
00:17:13
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:17:17
Red D
Ah, yes.
00:17:19
Jen
Maybe that's it.
00:17:20
Red D
I'm afraid I was too much in a literal mindset when I was watching those episodes today because I was squeezing it in between work and everything.
00:17:23
Jen
take
00:17:25
El Platypo
ah sister
00:17:26
Red D
So maybe I missed the joke there. Sorry.
00:17:29
El Platypo
this
00:17:29
Red D
Uh, but I will follow on with a cup. Huh?
00:17:33
Jen
story of my life right here.
00:17:34
Red D
Okay.
00:17:35
Jen
Too literal.
00:17:35
Red D
Um, too literal. Yes. I was like, wait, that doesn't make any sense. And then when he follows it up with like, Oh, I just got stuck on a turbo lift. It made even less sense to me. I was like, what is happening? Um,
00:17:46
Red D
And they go again, a little bit, it was right back in the beginning, but when the doctor is starting to, you know, he's got this video and she's studying electrical or neurological activities, grading, everything.
00:17:55
El Platypo
Yes. Yes.
00:18:00
Red D
He just decides to put her in a hologram. I was like, does he not need permission for any of this type of procedure?
00:18:07
El Platypo
ah H.R.
00:18:08
Red D
I don't
00:18:09
El Platypo
What are the hologram rules?
00:18:11
Red D
know what you guys saw, but I was like, if Jane knew this was going on,
00:18:15
El Platypo
Would she be down with this?
00:18:16
Red D
What did she? Yeah, what did you guys think?
00:18:21
Jen
I don't know, it kind of makes sense to me because she's dying and it's the only way to save her.
00:18:26
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:18:26
Jen
Like her brain patterns are about to just go, aren't they?
00:18:29
El Platypo
And it's not permanent.
00:18:29
Jen
um
00:18:33
Jen
Yeah, so it's kind of like a temporary treatment or it is, you know, when they put someone temporarily in a, behind a force field in a certain environment to just keep them alive or or putting them on a ventilator, you know.
00:18:44
Jen
um You know, I guess it doesn't hold the same risk because, you know, if you're putting someone on a computer
00:18:46
Red D
Okay. yeah That does make sense. Yeah.
00:18:52
Jen
program but presumably it's all who knows how to make it safe because he is a hologram but yeah I don't know
00:19:02
Red D
Yeah. Well, I think that, I don't think your rationale makes sense actually. And I guess he found out that she had that device or implant quite late and well, so he had to make a decision quickly. Um,
00:19:15
Red D
And then a final question on this, when he does, uh, do a procedure and she is not transformed from like a ill video into a healthy looking video on the same bed.
00:19:29
Red D
I was a bit confused. Was the hologram projected?
00:19:31
El Platypo
Is it the same bed?
00:19:32
Red D
Well, yes, wasn't the same bed or because I know later on we see that the hot, the body is still in the.
00:19:35
El Platypo
Well, it couldn't have been.
00:19:41
Red D
sick day but we don't see it at that moment so I was like is a hologram just over her physical body?
00:19:46
El Platypo
It couldn't be because it can't occupy the same bed because the physical body is there and like ah you see multiple scenes in which the healthy Fidean hologram is hovering over the actual sick body and warming operations on it so it must be separate throughout the entire time.
00:19:46
Red D
but just Yes I just found it a little bit confusing.
00:20:02
Red D
Yeah.
00:20:03
Jen
It's definitely separate because when you first, when you first see the hologram being built up, they start with like, um, skeleton, don't they?
00:20:04
El Platypo
frank Frankensteinian logic
00:20:11
Jen
So they have like a bare bed with nothing on it.
00:20:11
Red D
Oh, yes.
00:20:12
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:20:12
Red D
Oh, yes.
00:20:13
Jen
And then there's skeleton and then they had muscle and then they had, but you know, the thing that bothered me about that scene, right? Is that it went from like, I don't understand why the skeleton and the muscle is a hologram that is cartoonish.
00:20:27
Jen
You know, it's like animated. It's like animations when you build animations, but then when they add the skin, She suddenly becomes as if she's in this real life movie, high level production.
00:20:31
El Platypo
yes special effects forms as complicated it weren't as good back then Jenny and the bottom.
00:20:35
Red D
ah
00:20:38
Jen
let
00:20:38
Red D
Well, now
00:20:39
Jen
like
00:20:42
Red D
I think I have an idea though. I think I have a response. Like you answered my question. Because weren't they, I mean, he was just saying, if we create this hologram of her, we'll have a good model of her anatomy and everything.
00:20:55
Red D
So it's more for their understanding, not that it has to.
00:20:57
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:20:57
Red D
So it kind of can look like an anatomy textbook. I'll just throw that out there.
00:21:00
Jen
It's true.
00:21:00
El Platypo
yeah
00:21:01
Jen
That is true, and I'm sure in other scenarios when they've had to work with holographic, you know, like musculature or holographic hearts or something to for educational purposes, um it would make more sense, wouldn't it, if it was more of a sort of diagram kind of animation as opposed to like an actual heart, which probably just looks like a big blob of bloody muscle in real life.
00:21:29
Red D
Yeah, well, yeah, that's also a good point. But yes, I would prefer if I was studying to have a slight distance between me and the actual human body.
00:21:38
Jen
Yes.
00:21:38
Red D
um Okay, well, those were all a bunch of questions I had right at the beginning.
00:21:40
Jen
Same.
00:21:43
Red D
So I have got a rid of a lot of my points, which is good, I think, because I had kind of a...
00:21:44
El Platypo
Oh gosh.
00:21:49
Red D
So Jenny, back to you.
00:21:51
Jen
Oh.
00:21:51
Red D
and What would you like to discuss?
00:21:53
Jen
Well, um you know, I did just want to add on to Jamie's point, which and probably I should have done earlier about the Doctor comedy, because obviously I had that as a point as well, because you know, I love being a bit of Doctor comedy.
00:22:06
El Platypo
sister
00:22:06
Jen
And I chose the same moment as you did, both of you guys. By the way, I'm romantically attracted to you and wanted to know if you felt the same way. And then also Kessa's face, brilliant, brilliant facial reactions.
00:22:15
Red D
ah
00:22:17
El Platypo
It's so like...
00:22:19
Jen
And then the other moment I really enjoyed was his delivery of Mr. Parris. I assume you've had a great deal of experience being rejected by women.
00:22:27
El Platypo
I know, that was amazing!
00:22:28
Red D
Oh, that was good.
00:22:29
El Platypo
oh
00:22:32
Red D
That was good.
00:22:32
Jen
It's just the delivery. I don't even think the screen, the the writing is but That, that hilariously clever, but he delivers it so well. It makes it hilarious.
00:22:41
Red D
Yes, I think they know exactly what to put in his mouth. That doesn't even have to be that good.
00:22:44
El Platypo
ah sister
00:22:46
Jen
Yeah.
00:22:46
El Platypo
o
00:22:47
Jen
Oh, he's so good.
00:22:48
Red D
I'm not saying it's not good, but um ah yeah, that moment and
00:22:51
El Platypo
Really, Red, because all our fans heard you, and you know, they're hardcore Star Trek fans. And if I didn't, our computer analysts and can find where we live. You've put us all in danger, Red.
00:23:03
El Platypo
All in danger.
00:23:04
Red D
I mean, ah yeah, okay, I'm sorry.
00:23:06
El Platypo
All in danger.
00:23:06
Red D
I take that back. I take that back.
00:23:09
El Platypo
Thank you. Our cards were marked until you did so.
00:23:14
Red D
But what is the line again, Jenny? Because if I ever decide to start dating again or have a crush on someone, I might just use that very line.
00:23:22
Jen
Well, if you're going to read, I just feel that I should um highlight that I do think part of the strength of the line is the fact that you have to sandwich it between other stuff, other complex scientific stuff that's going on.
00:23:34
Red D
Yes. No, I get it. Just be like, yeah.
00:23:39
El Platypo
Yeah, I mean...
00:23:40
Red D
Be like, okay, this program isn't working. Why not? Uh, I'm attracted to you. Do you feel the same way? Oh, how are we going to send out the testing for this program?
00:23:45
El Platypo
Shit.
00:23:47
Red D
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:23:48
Jen
Yes, exactly.
00:23:48
Red D
Something like that.
00:23:49
Jen
So so so I feel like something like um we're just developing this strategic advisory board full of patient advocacy insights.
00:23:49
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:23:55
El Platypo
Yeah. it
00:23:56
Jen
Oh, and by the way, I'm romantically attracted to you. I wanted to know if you felt the same way.
00:23:59
El Platypo
yeah
00:23:59
Jen
And then after we've done developed this strategic oversight slide deck.
00:24:05
El Platypo
mean can I could I segue in here?
00:24:05
Jen
Exactly.
00:24:06
El Platypo
I think it probably helps if you deliver it in that way as you expand the boundaries of knowledge and known scientific and medical practice or computer practice the way the doctor did.
00:24:15
Red D
Okay, I see.
00:24:17
El Platypo
Just effortlessly performing, effortlessly using
00:24:17
Red D
Yes.
00:24:20
Red D
Groundbreaking surgery.
00:24:21
El Platypo
a hologrammatic personality downloaded from your patient to actually perform and swoon over you as you perform brain surgery on said patient while effortlessly throwing away an ask-out line in the middle of it, which I have classed as the doctor's surgery brings all the girls to the yard.
00:24:36
Jen
yes And also, we mustn't forget, you must have a third party there as well, and just to make it really important.
00:24:44
Red D
Oh my god, okay.
00:24:44
El Platypo
Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. To also swoon and bring you guys all together.
00:24:46
Red D
Okay.
00:24:48
Jen
Preferably your junior assistant.
00:24:48
Red D
It's not ha- Ah yes, well whatever I do, they will make that face. That's fine, but and I'm not sure about the genius scientific knowledge.
00:25:01
El Platypo
I'm not sure everyone makes that face. and and but Anyway, sorry, nothing.
00:25:06
Red D
But maybe I'll just throw it in here because it's another awkward doctor moment. It's a small moment, but um prior to this, when he and, oh, I've just forgotten the name, Donara. They have like, the evening at St. Dreen's, and then they have like that, they have to say goodnight to each other. And then he has to deactivate her, so that's kind of awkward. But um they are like trying to say goodnight, and I guess he's not necessarily picking up on the signals that she is laying down, and that you think they're gonna like, might kiss, and then he like pulls away and looks very awkward.
00:25:42
Red D
Um, which I thought was a good scene and it reminded me of a Seinfeld episode where George Costanza goes on a date with a woman and then she says, would you like to come up for coffee? And he's like, no, coffee keeps me awake at night and lets her out the car and drives off. And then the next day he's like, I can't believe I didn't understand what would you like some coffee means? So this just reminded me, like the doctor being like, Oh, no, I'm not sure what's happening here. I'm up. Um.
00:26:10
Red D
But just a little awkward doctor moment that I thought was played quite well.
Character Development and Redemption
00:26:14
Jen
Yeah, and especially because it's like, not in his programming, I think as he says later, doesn't make any sense.
00:26:19
Red D
Yes.
00:26:19
El Platypo
a Well his programming is adaptive apparently so you know a lot with you know expanding the boundaries of science you can now grow a personality and indeed a romantic one at that.
00:26:23
Jen
Well, yes, there's the explanation. theyre listening
00:26:32
Red D
Yeah, he also, yeah, observes a lot, but yeah.
00:26:34
El Platypo
Must be very adaptive.
00:26:36
Red D
um Sorry, back to you, Jamie.
00:26:39
El Platypo
ah Okay, I would like to focus on and ask the question around Tom Paris's unexplained degeneration because he considered it continues acts in a way that you just can't imagine he thinks he can get away with on a Starfleet vessel like constantly turning up late and they've been making a point of it continuing to happen throughout.
00:26:58
El Platypo
you know, various preceding episodes and then Shikoshi finally bringing it to the cap in this episode. But i I mean, I really don't like it. It just feels really contrived when they do it because he's he's been on this redemption arc and really committed to it and then all of a sudden he's missing it away and that just feels...
00:27:18
El Platypo
it doesn't feel believable. So yeah, I think
00:27:21
Red D
Mm.
00:27:23
El Platypo
As part of that, I think actually Chiquote was right to try and slope your shoulders, the duty of dealing with it up to Janeway, because when he tried to talk to Tom Parris, it actually came across as a bit bloke-spotting head, and he was probably right that he wasn't the right person to check in, see how things are going, ask if he's got any problems.
00:27:49
Jen
I remember when I watched this for the first time, and this whole storyline, I felt very much the same when you were first programming Jamie about how you just didn't like it. I didn't like it either. I just felt like this was just, you know, you've been going on such a positive path, Paris. When Jamie picked him up from the prisons, and now he's, you know, doing really well in his position on the Voyager, and it like, A, made no sense, and B, just pause a bit,
00:28:18
Jen
It's sad, and yeah, I actually genuinely kind of put me off a few episodes.
00:28:19
Red D
Yeah.
00:28:20
El Platypo
a
00:28:25
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:28:26
Jen
um However, there is more to it, as we find out in later episodes.
00:28:32
El Platypo
Does he have the clamp? No, sorry, sorry, sorry, dreadful.
00:28:35
Red D
he It is hard to watch because as you say, he's beyond that redemption arc and you're like, don't throw it away.
00:28:42
Jen
Stick with it, Jay. Just stick with it, and the work will be fine. It will all come out.
00:28:50
Red D
But that what you mentioned there, but kind of put you off watching a bit. I have been watching this show called, it's called Fat Friends. It's an old show, a British show from 2002 or something. And I started watching it because it kept getting promoted to me. And then I started watching it. I was like, oh, this is, it's written it's actually very sweet and funny and emotional and quite intense.
00:29:12
Red D
But yes, I don't like watching people make bad decisions. So I watched like three seasons, really like it. I went halfway through an episode or start an episode where it seems like one woman who's married is gonna have an affair with her gym instructor.
00:29:24
Red D
And I'm like, I can't watch that. I'm just like, I just stopped.
00:29:25
El Platypo
Oh.
00:29:25
Jen
look
00:29:26
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:29:28
Red D
I'm like, no, I can't watch you make that decision. Maybe she doesn't, but I can't bring myself to, I was like, I was really enjoying that episode. Why haven't I been watching it? I'm like, oh no, I don't wanna watch that episode because I'm worried she's gonna make a bad decision.
00:29:42
Jen
Yeah, that'll tip me off as well.
00:29:42
El Platypo
man Well, Tom's making a lot of them and you're sticking with it, so I think you're growing.
00:29:47
Red D
Yes, that's the sign of growth. That's true.
00:29:50
Jen
you
00:29:51
El Platypo
I've stuck with a lot of friends making a lot of bad decisions. They're made for great stories and nights out.
00:29:56
Red D
They do. That's true. um Okay. Well, what did you think about the scene? Just um one of my points about the doctor asking Belanna for a bit of her brain.
00:30:08
Jen
no
00:30:09
El Platypo
It's a bit direct, isn't it? And a bit like ordering her. ah I mean, I think it's the stage at which it becomes clear that he's a bit into Dinaro because he says it. As though there's no question.
00:30:19
El Platypo
He in fact is practically ordering her and shouting at her to do it.
00:30:23
Red D
Do any of you remember the lines? I mean, I don't, but I want to give you a shot because you guys often remember.
00:30:27
El Platypo
Oh, yeah. It's just a gram. You want to crack open my skull.
00:30:32
Red D
He was like, on the bed, put on an account and like crack open your brain kind of thing.
00:30:36
El Platypo
Yeah. Get ready.
00:30:38
Jen
Like.
00:30:38
El Platypo
Just, just harden up. It'll be fine. God, toxic masculinity much.
00:30:42
Red D
That was...
00:30:44
Red D
Well, Jamie, I was like, I thought the scene was interesting because he tries to force Bolana and that doesn't work. And then Denora has that more, I think we've already alluded to more,
00:30:53
El Platypo
But it's not open.
00:30:53
Red D
open um connect approach.
00:30:56
El Platypo
It's, it's, she literally, by not forcing her and by putting her in a position where She understands it as nothing more than a good deed she's not obligated to do, which, you know, costs her nothing as opposed to ordering her, but doing so in a gentle way that acknowledges her trauma.
00:31:20
El Platypo
I mean, Donara is everything that the doctor's take on it isn't really.
00:31:27
Red D
Well I wanted to ask you, how does this apply to change management?
00:31:27
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:31:32
El Platypo
I mean, She's clearly showing behaviours that just aren't prevalent in the UK change management scene at the moment. It's just really shoddy writing that the doctor using all the right techniques is just shot down.
00:31:45
El Platypo
I think that's just a lack of realism in this. yeah Obviously, you know, any change you would want to do as sensitively as Denara does, as she strives desperately for a gram of Balaana's brain tissue.
00:31:50
Red D
oh
00:32:02
Red D
Yeah, well we do find out she was a hematologist, so I don't know, maybe she just has a bit of ah better bedside manner.
00:32:05
El Platypo
Oh, that changes everything. ah li Oh my gosh. I absolutely love the fact that the doctor, when De Nora asked for the first time not to be switched off and to do something, is like, ooh, I've got a thousand texts on comparative endocrinology you could read.
00:32:19
Jen
Mm hmm.
00:32:21
El Platypo
That would be interesting.
00:32:23
Red D
That was funny.
00:32:23
Jen
the
00:32:24
Red D
So many good little moments between them.
00:32:26
El Platypo
Oh dear.
00:32:27
Red D
And she actually is like, okay, that sounds nice. Ah.
00:32:32
Jen
I guess it's better than just being unconscious for eight hours. but
00:32:35
Red D
That's true. um Okay, Jenny, we're back to you, I think. Anything else?
00:32:41
Jen
welcome well I feel like I was going to skip over one because there was really nothing to it. It was just a passing thought, but you know, what the hell?
00:32:51
Red D
Oh, put it in.
00:32:53
Jen
I just, it was my passing thought on there. It got to a certain point where I was like, my goodness, there is a lot of different, there's lots of stuff going on. There's a lot of story threads. um you know because so jumping from the the dude who's trying to plan a plot with Cesca to overthrow a voyager and passing information to her and then there's also this weird thing going on with Chikote and Paris and you know whether Jayway's going to get involved in that as well as like the main storyline of the new character Denara and you know she's possibly going to die and she's also having a romantic relationship with the Doctor. I mean, yeah, a lot of story threads.
00:33:30
Red D
I'm so glad you brought that up because I think, well, Jamie's already alluded to, but the Tom and Chicozzi thing, but these are threads that I'm like, i because I've watched it before, I'm like not really paying that much attention to them because I think I know what's coming, but these are like, they lay in the groundwork for some big moments. So I'm glad you brought it up. um I know you said it was just a,
00:33:55
Jen
Good, it was my mistake.
00:33:57
Red D
Yes, definitely. Because I was like, oh, I can't be bothered to mention that.
00:34:01
Jen
Yeah, because you know when you have a, it's just a passing thought, you know, there's no real like, ah conclusion to it. I don't know if that's it really that interesting for anyone here, but there we are.
00:34:11
Red D
No, but I imagine that.
00:34:11
Jen
Possibly one of this is, so.
00:34:13
Red D
Yes, exactly. Let's not start judging ourselves now.
00:34:16
Jen
Let's not put it that good.
00:34:16
El Platypo
ah I am very much up for judging ourselves. Other people.
00:34:23
Red D
Yeah, you mean other people, ourselves. OK.
00:34:25
El Platypo
Yeah, they're still up.
00:34:25
Red D
um
00:34:28
Red D
Um, okay. So I guess that was just the passing thought. So we can move on to Jamie for the next point.
00:34:32
El Platypo
All right, hey, this is... Ooh, I've been joined by Kat.
00:34:37
Red D
Oh.
00:34:37
El Platypo
Aww.
00:34:38
Jen
Is that the one that was just meowing at me?
00:34:39
El Platypo
um uh i mean it's yeah it's it's little moir it's adorable um so i wanted to move on to uh in an episode in which facial expression acting has garnered large things can we talk about ens and kim's face when tom throws jacote around how amazing is that facial expression oh my days because
00:34:58
Jen
you
00:35:01
Red D
ah Oh, I think I missed it, but I will. Okay, let me just thanks. and Oh, sorry.
00:35:08
El Platypo
So Chikoshi is trying to remove Tom from the break.
00:35:08
Red D
cause
00:35:11
El Platypo
Tom says, get your hands off me and throws him to the ground in one of the most unrealistic physical interactions I've ever seen in Star Trek Voyager, but let's leave that aside.
00:35:24
El Platypo
Chikoshi is on the ground and getting up and just over him you see Tom and just shaking his head, head in his hands like, what have you done? There was no need and you're just gonna make everything so awful.
00:35:36
El Platypo
So yes, that was that.
00:35:37
Red D
Yes, I did. I had a point about Harry Kim's background acting so I think I might have zoomed in on the first part but where he's like just a little bit blurred and he's like his head is in between Tom and Shikote and I think maybe I was writing it down or something so I missed the like final reaction but I loved his background acting.
00:35:53
Red D
I could feel like him projecting Tom like what are you doing just what's like just behave like stop causing trouble um
00:36:02
El Platypo
And maybe that alludes to his link back to the crew, Kim as his lifeline back to, you know, appropriate office performance management.
00:36:08
Red D
oh
00:36:13
Red D
Yes, I think Harry Kim didn't do a lot on this episode, but I did notice his background acting. I thought it was very good.
00:36:19
El Platypo
As did I. As did I.
00:36:22
Red D
I keep getting distracted by that little kitten in your door um doorway, Jenny.
00:36:26
El Platypo
Aww.
00:36:27
Red D
Very cute.
00:36:28
El Platypo
Is she gone?
00:36:30
Red D
Anything else to add on that, Jamie, before we move on?
00:36:33
El Platypo
I mean, no, I think we've done that. I don't think we need to dwell on Mr. Chakotay's loss of authority that much, given the unrealistic nature of the physical interaction.
00:36:46
El Platypo
I think we're good.
00:36:48
Red D
um Now, Janie, you already mentioned a bit of this, but the scene with with the doctor, who we must remember, I think, has always been quite sarcastic about Tom, goes to Tom Paris for help in St. Drain's and delivers that priceless line that you've really given. But I just really like this moment as a whole because um I guess it starts off and Tom doesn't realise that the doctor, the doctor's done that classic, it's for a friend type.
00:37:15
Red D
kind of ploy to get his opinion and um the moment that the doctor realizes that well tom is trying to explain like yes when you have real feelings with someone and they reject you it's very painful but you know over time you start to think about all this and the doctor's like okay so the symptoms decrease over time great whatever like alluding it to a medical condition which i think is hilarious like being in love with someone or infatuated or have at your crush and then um
00:37:26
El Platypo
So, I think that's it.
00:37:43
Red D
And then, but then Tom Paris kind of says something about like, you know, but you know, you can still be 20 years later, you can think about it and still feel those feelings. And the doctor's reaction, when he puts his hat, head in his hand, and he looks so distraught that this could be the case, I thought was very good, very good reaction from him.
00:37:53
El Platypo
I know, that's amazing.
00:38:01
El Platypo
It was amazing Susie k Crabtree has a lot to answer for.
00:38:01
Jen
It and is because I guess if he is likening it to a disease, he's thinking, okay, so what you're telling me is this is the equivalent of a chronic disorder that is lifelong, which would be a head and hands movement.
00:38:05
Red D
Yes.
00:38:18
Red D
That is a good.
00:38:20
Red D
Yes, yeah. That's a very good point. I just loved his because. I guess now it's like a more mature person. It's funny, but also like when I was 13 watching it and having my first crush is like, oh, no, that is the worst.
00:38:35
El Platypo
what
00:38:37
Red D
You know, like, I don't know.
00:38:38
El Platypo
It's a bit terrifying, isn't it? for
00:38:40
Red D
Yeah, exactly. So I just really love that scene.
00:38:45
El Platypo
I just I still love that. Mr. Paris, you have me must have a huge amount of experience with rejection. What evidence do you have for that statement, sir?
00:38:53
Red D
on ah Very good.
00:38:56
Jen
I had, yeah, I mean, I've noted that down as well at the same scene, which is quite interesting because it wasn't like, you know, one of the key scenes.
00:39:02
Red D
Oh, yeah.
00:39:07
Jen
But I thought Paris did the whole explanation of, you know, first love and young love quite well.
00:39:12
Red D
Yeah.
00:39:14
Jen
Um, cause it did, it does make you think back to what it's like.
00:39:19
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:39:19
Jen
And then obviously it's upsetting at the time, but what how you relate to it now, years later, you can barely remember it and like, but thinking back to it, how it makes you feel compared to how it makes you feel back then.
00:39:22
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:39:33
Jen
Um, and I was just thinking, of course, it makes you think of your own like youthful relationships, but, uh, I don't think, I don't remember them in quite the same way that Paris seems to do. so
00:39:43
Red D
ah
00:39:43
Jen
low about him of these I don't know but if he's got these beautiful you know these dreamlike eyes and you can see he's lost fucking the time of you know rainbows and unicorns and I don't remember mine that much um more with embarrassment really like teenage angst emo kind of drama
00:39:44
El Platypo
you You didn't get rejected as much.
00:39:49
Red D
That's
00:39:53
El Platypo
ah so
00:39:54
Red D
true!
00:40:04
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:40:07
El Platypo
yeah
00:40:09
Red D
I think you raised a good point because I do think some people are able to romanticize their own life a bit in a nice way, I think. But they'll be like, oh, that beautiful relationship or that moment that taught me that. I'll be like, oh, yes.
00:40:21
Red D
When I was 13, I thought it would be the end of my life if that guy didn't like me back and I don't remember them. So it's like a bit more.
00:40:26
Jen
yes
Romantic Settings and Emotional Growth
00:40:29
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:40:29
Red D
Yeah, I'm sure different approaches to the memories.
00:40:34
El Platypo
Great.
00:40:34
Red D
But yes, Paris did do a good job. He is a romantic. as we see a bit more later on.
00:40:41
Red D
um Right, back to you, Jenny.
00:40:45
Jen
ah we again
00:40:45
Red D
At least you have anything else you want to add about that scene, yeah?
00:40:48
Jen
Well, that was one of my of my points. So I would be onto my final one.
00:40:53
Red D
Okay, sorry, we're whipping through.
00:40:56
Jen
but
00:40:57
Red D
Go for it.
00:40:58
Jen
What was my final one? Oh, and it's a really trivial one.
00:41:04
Red D
Great.
00:41:04
Jen
i But you know what? I might i might have and i have an additional one now based on listening to you guys actually. You made me think a bit more carefully about this episode Um, but the more trivial one is what's with the date, please?
00:41:18
Jen
You know, like the doctor's never been.
00:41:19
Red D
Oh yes, I'm so glad she raised that.
00:41:21
Jen
Yeah.
00:41:21
El Platypo
Hey, a french a French cafe-slash-brother is the essence of romance.
00:41:21
Jen
Like he's never been, he's got no, I don't, he's got no, no knowledge at all of where it was romantic to take someone. And then like in a car on a, on a cliff, I mean, it's very teenage.
00:41:31
El Platypo
this is
00:41:37
Jen
I don't know about romantic.
00:41:37
Red D
It's very, it was very heavily influenced by Tom Paris though, right?
00:41:41
El Platypo
Yeah. Also, a sports car for a date on the surface of Mars.
00:41:43
Jen
that
00:41:46
El Platypo
Hello, some guy called Elon on the phone.
00:41:51
Red D
i i No, please continue your point, but I will i do have a little rebuttal.
00:41:58
Jen
I think that was the point. I said it was true reality.
00:42:00
Red D
Okay.
00:42:02
Jen
I mean, I just, I'm like, no no, no, not romantic at all, not my cup of tea.
00:42:07
Red D
It is a bit too stereotypical, but I loved it when she asked like, what are we doing or something? And the doctor's like, I believe it's called parking, which was very funny.
00:42:17
El Platypo
Yeah, ha ha ha.
00:42:19
Red D
And yes, the scene was just this setting and everything was like, oh my gosh, Tom Harris obviously chose this. um But it did lead to some romantic moments because of the beautiful starscape, all the stars in the sky.
00:42:33
Jen
Oh.
00:42:34
Red D
So in the end, I was like, this is so corny. And then in the end, I was like, ah, this is quite romantic.
00:42:39
Jen
Okay.
00:42:40
El Platypo
I see I was I was the other way around because at the start I was like wow imagine you know being in a sports car on the surface of Mars looking at the stars completely terraformed planet wildlife everything like that and then and then the only way you have to interact with your date is mansplaining about what you can see for the win
00:42:44
Red D
Car.
00:42:52
Red D
Oh my gosh, you are right. That is Elon Musk. Sorry.
00:43:02
Red D
But he knew that satellite, like those stars, cause he's from, he has all the earth knowledge.
00:43:06
El Platypo
Mansplenation just saying mansplenation.
00:43:06
Red D
So I didn't see it.
00:43:10
Red D
Okay. Well, I thought it was kind of romantic.
00:43:12
Jen
I mean, stars, stars are romantic. That part I like looking up, stargazing, looking for shooting stars maybe.
00:43:15
Red D
Yeah.
00:43:19
Jen
I think it's more the car that puts me off, like sitting in a car. It's not ah very comfy.
00:43:25
Red D
Yes. I mean, if someone was like, I'm going to pick you up and drive you to like that place in l LA. Well, I guess that's a bit different. That's like, but like, I mean, just got, I'll be like, this is too stereotypical for me. I can't take it as a date idea, but it won me over in the end. I guess is what I'm saying.
00:43:44
Jen
Yeah, I think the car thing is really, you know, when you're a teenager, that is the only privacy you can get if you're old enough to drive, but you're still living with your parents.
00:43:56
Jen
So that is where you go to have your romantic times.
00:44:02
Red D
Well, now we know.
00:44:02
Jen
But the doctor's like 40 or something, so it seems a bit older.
00:44:06
Red D
That's true, but at some point I thought, oh my gosh, is he kind of going through like puberty? Because, um I mean, it's not like, a I'm not saying it like that was the intention, but that scene where he's explaining to kids that like, I think about it all the time and I can't focus and I can't do this and I can't do that. I was like, oh, he's having a little experience of, I mean, puberty, first relationship.
00:44:28
Red D
They kind of could be considered a mix.
00:44:29
Jen
Yeah, I i absolutely think that is what they're getting for.
00:44:34
Red D
Oh, OK. It wasn't just my imagination.
00:44:35
Jen
Yeah. So it does make sense in that context, to be fair.
00:44:41
Red D
Yeah, he's got to do those old school teenage things, I guess, that on his first date. OK, so I think Jamie, we were wrapping up to our final points, but we have time to take on more. But what we'd like to add?
00:45:00
Jen
Oh, I think we've lost Jamie.
00:45:01
Red D
Oh, muted, muted. Oh.
00:45:08
El Platypo
No wonder everyone was ignoring me for a spell. I was like, I seem to be talking, but people aren't really reacting to what I say, only my body language cues. um Which clearly wasn't.
00:45:16
Red D
Do you want to say what you were saying? um
00:45:18
El Platypo
clearly it wasn't um I mean, I had two little things, and one was all Seska stalking them, but I don't really think it needs adding to this episode apart from wider plot arc armour. But I did feel as beautiful as the dance with Dinara was at the end.
00:45:36
El Platypo
There is a slight sort of... because she has that implant in her head as she dances, and it's sort of reminiscent of the Borg in a weird sort of way, and it's maybe foreshadowing.
00:45:50
Jen
Mm.
00:45:54
Red D
Yes, I know that I found it, I mean, this may be a terrible thing to say, but I found that like the flashing lights a little bit off-putting. Not off-putting, but like, did it need to be flashing?
00:46:02
El Platypo
I think maybe maybe it was called boating.
00:46:05
Red D
Yeah.
00:46:07
El Platypo
I mean, she'd have died without the flashing red.
00:46:07
Red D
and
00:46:10
El Platypo
She'd have died.
00:46:10
Red D
There's such a slow signal lights and they could carry on working because we didn't see it flashing. I guess maybe he fixed it. I don't know. But you saying it's kind of a portentous, is that the word?
00:46:22
El Platypo
Maybe, yeah. I mean, it's like this sort of dance of life and death, the doctor and Denara at the end. and But also she looks a little bit like one of the Borg in some ways.
00:46:36
Red D
ah
00:46:37
El Platypo
So yeah, it's interesting.
00:46:38
Red D
Oh, kitty.
00:46:40
El Platypo
We all have cats. You may have a message about the cat presence in my life on the thing.
00:46:44
Red D
Oh my God, you guys are killing me. Oh.
00:46:48
Jen
A little cat story about the parroting, anyone listening?
00:46:50
El Platypo
Well, there's a simple solution.
00:46:52
Red D
My gosh, the colors on.
00:46:52
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:46:55
Red D
Also, those almost look like stripes. It's just my.
00:46:58
El Platypo
And now, she's a little tiger.
00:47:00
Red D
Cute.
00:47:01
El Platypo
Of course, this is the sort of Star Trek content that folk want to know that both the podcasters, one in particular, and have a kitten on their lap. Delwan asks, Jenny, have you recently seen the Marmalade-coloured one?
00:47:16
Jen
Yes, he's been fast to asleep by my feet this whole time.
00:47:18
El Platypo
Oh, good.
00:47:19
Red D
Aww.
00:47:19
El Platypo
I was worried he was stuck outside in the frost. My bad. Because we are caring animal lovers, which is my way of moving away from from my last point.
00:47:30
Red D
Well, I think I can... Well, maybe... It's not quite tying into your point, but um I also thought the moment or the discussion between Danara and the doctor where we find out that she is trying to sabotage her own physical recovery because she would rather only live a few days as this healthy person rather than longer as the sick person.
00:47:44
El Platypo
and
00:47:53
Red D
And one of the drivers is she seems to think the doctor will no longer care for her when she's back in her old body. um But what I really liked about the scene where she you just discuss the dancing and everything when she comes back, you really get a sense that the doctor cares for her very strongly.
00:48:09
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:48:10
Red D
And it was never about her physical appearance, which is nice.
00:48:13
El Platypo
Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
00:48:16
Red D
And and i <unk>re in the when Cares is talking to Dara and Danara is like, why would the doctor like me?
00:48:17
El Platypo
Very true.
00:48:21
Red D
I like the reason she laid out, like you're a compassionate person, you find him funny, you're a brilliant doctor. um you know So he really saw her, I guess, and I think that contributed to that nice moment at the end, apart from the bad editing, Jamie.
00:48:41
El Platypo
Yeah, I agree. I agree.
00:48:44
Jen
yeah i thought that was ugly it was um i know it's super cheesy and you know i i love you no matter what you look like um but i do think he acted it well and it was a little bit touching the yeah
00:48:45
El Platypo
It was lovely.
00:48:55
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:48:58
Red D
Yeah, maybe I'm just basic, but I thought it was
00:48:59
El Platypo
I thought it was lovely.
00:49:02
Red D
I think he was very convincing yeah like as ah as the acting as well.
00:49:11
El Platypo
Maybe she got the whole picture of Death and the Borg fine.
00:49:11
Red D
Jamie,
00:49:16
Red D
ah damy do you have any other more points? Because I've just got one more that I can throw in at any time.
00:49:20
El Platypo
No, no, I'm there, I'm there.
00:49:23
Red D
I did enjoy, I mean, we've spoken about the Doctor a lot. Of course, he was like the main driver of this episode and all his brilliant comedic moments. but He threw in a lot of self aggrandizing comments.
00:49:34
Red D
Did you notice?
00:49:34
El Platypo
Yeah, yeah, I
00:49:35
Red D
Please be like, I'm a doctor, a brilliant one, of course.
00:49:35
Jen
you
00:49:38
Red D
Or I saved you because I'm brilliant.
00:49:39
El Platypo
know 3,000 medical cultures here Yeah, it's pretty good ego there Maybe
00:49:40
Red D
Oh. Yeah, I saw something. I was like, OK. She still had feelings for him, despite all these comments. It's quite impressive.
00:49:50
Jen
yes Well, she was your doctor to too, so maybe, you know, that's just, you know, is in medical studies.
00:49:52
Red D
um
00:49:56
Red D
What are you saying about doctors?
00:49:59
Jen
I mean, I mean, I'm afraid I think anyone who works in
00:50:00
El Platypo
We all want to marry one.
00:50:02
Red D
ah
00:50:06
Jen
Scientific academia and medicine knows that there are not all, but certainly a reasonably high percentage of characters who are quite ego-driven.
00:50:18
Red D
Okay. So it's like, I'm a doctor. I'm brilliant. good Great. Nice to meet you. I'm a doctor too. I'm also brilliant.
00:50:23
Jen
Could have been, could have been.
00:50:25
Red D
la Yes. I've never understood that, but that's a separate thing.
00:50:33
Jen
I think it kind of makes sense, you know, because
00:50:33
Red D
I wouldn't be a good doctor then.
00:50:37
Jen
Especially if you're a doctor, um you know you need to have an insane amount of confidence in certain doctoring specialties.
00:50:48
El Platypo
It's a connection.
00:50:49
Jen
You can't doubt yourself you know when you've got to make life or death's split-second decisions.
00:50:59
Red D
This is the second time that
00:51:00
El Platypo
we'll save you Seven years of med school tends to also imbue a certain potential for confidence.
00:51:02
Red D
What was that, Jamie?
00:51:10
Red D
I guess if you studied for seven years, you might deserve to have a bit more confidence than the average person. and Um, I'm not saying they should be confident, but yes, I mean, I've done, I don't know what it's like, but my, yeah, my dad was a doctor.
00:51:23
Red D
He seemed normal, but, uh, um,
00:51:26
Jen
It's not all doctors read, not all doctors.
00:51:28
Red D
Yeah, I know, I know, I know, I know. I don't know some doctors. Also, I mean, I'm obviously aware of the stereotype. I just don't really interact with that many doctors anymore, so I don't have a first-hand experience.
00:51:36
El Platypo
I mean, some doctors actually aren't just about their ego and actually save lives.
Self-confidence and Acceptance
00:51:41
Red D
ah Well, I'm sure most of them are trying to help, but some are just more difficult personalities than others, I guess is what we say. um
00:51:52
Jen
I mean, house must have been based on something.
00:51:55
Red D
Oh, yes, that's true. That is true.
00:51:57
El Platypo
It was both.
00:51:57
Red D
That is true. And I loved him anyway.
00:52:01
Jen
Yeah.
00:52:02
Red D
Okay. Yeah, he was. not Okay, I think we have finished our kind of main discussion. So, oh, we can move on to our themes.
00:52:14
Red D
I'm gonna start with you, Jamie, because you've already written something down, so it gives the rest of us time to think.
00:52:19
El Platypo
Well, that's the only release. I just found ah without making any musings where I lie the distinction that Denara draws between living and just breathing a really meaningful one.
00:52:34
El Platypo
um when she's telling the doctor why she prefers to live a short time briefly happy with him to you know be dragged back into an existence of suffering.
00:52:47
El Platypo
It's it's quite poignant without being drawn either side of any divides about what that means for assisted dying and things like that.
00:52:50
Red D
Yeah.
00:53:00
Red D
Yeah, I mean, I think it's always just good to have thought through these things and these episodes kind of help, I think, well, help people think about it or prompt people to think about it.
00:53:12
Red D
um Very good, Jenny. I'm putting, yeah.
00:53:17
Jen
First love, young love seems to sort of come out of it for me and all the emotions associated with it and you know what it's like to be reject, well first of all what it's like
00:53:19
Red D
Aw.
00:53:30
Jen
to experience romantic rejection for the first time, and then what it's like to fall in love and have it be reciprocated for the first time.
00:53:34
Red D
Oh dear.
00:53:39
Jen
Quite romantic, I'd say.
00:53:40
Red D
Uh, yes, because that reminds me of a moment when the doctor's like, why do people put themselves through this basically after he's been rejected in case like, because if the other person reciprocates the feelings, it's one of the best things that can happen.
00:53:47
Jen
like
00:53:53
Red D
Something like that.
00:53:54
Jen
Yeah.
00:53:56
Red D
Um, I don't really, I'm struggling with the theme, so I'm rather going to share a random thought that I had watching this episode. Uh, just like more, I could think of reflecting on De Niro's experience, but what it must be like to be that ill, be that disfigured, I guess you could say, and then wake up and you're perfectly healthy and you've got a like a, let's say normal appearance or what you would say normal appearance. And then,
00:54:27
Red D
You have to lose it all. That is very tough. And the only thing I could relate it to in my life, which is not, this is not a serious point, is sometimes I have these dreams where I have a much bigger house than I currently have.
00:54:38
Red D
And I'm so excited because I find all these rooms. And then I wake up and I've just got my regular size flat again. But I don't know if you have those dreams like where you might achieve some goal or have this amazing experience and then you wake up and it was all a dream.
00:54:53
Red D
And I thought for her, she was having this real dream in a sense that like,
00:54:56
El Platypo
I've won an Olympic silver medal and in a dream like that.
00:54:59
Red D
Did you?
00:55:00
Jen
oh
00:55:01
Red D
Oh, ah that is...
00:55:02
El Platypo
Silver,
00:55:03
Jen
oh you you guys unfortunately you're reminding me of dreams i've had that are more in keeping with her experience where
00:55:04
Red D
Yeah.
00:55:05
El Platypo
silver not gold.
00:55:11
Jen
I'm glad I've woken up.
00:55:11
El Platypo
so
00:55:12
Jen
But I i guess because I've worked in various sort of related to healthcare, sometimes I have had dreams or nightmares really about the conditions and me having them.
00:55:21
Red D
Oh. Oh my gosh.
00:55:23
Jen
And then I wake up and I'm seriously relieved.
00:55:26
Red D
Oh, that's horrible.
00:55:27
Jen
Not very serious ones, but like, um like there was one once where, I don't know, I think it was like a kind of sepsis, um which is quite a scary.
00:55:28
Red D
but
00:55:38
Jen
thing of And then there was another one that was to do with like my my teeth and my jaw. um Yeah, they like all my teeth falling out and like, oh yeah.
00:55:44
Red D
Oh my gosh!
00:55:48
Red D
Oh my gosh!
00:55:50
El Platypo
Mm-hmm.
00:55:50
Red D
I'm sorry!
00:55:50
Jen
And then I and then i wake up and I'm like utterly, like the relief you don't believe.
00:55:56
Red D
Yes, I can believe- I can understand why you wake up and be relieved that you had all your teeth. Um, I did- Yeah, but-
00:56:01
Jen
Yeah, I mean, this is not a regular thing. I mean, in like 15 years, I think I've had two or three of these like,
00:56:07
Red D
But I find that very interesting because-
00:56:09
Jen
horrible thing
00:56:12
Red D
Actually, no, I did use to have dreams related to my like daily life, but I've never really had work dreams. And honestly, if I dream, it's mostly about packing.
00:56:19
El Platypo
I've had so many white dreams.
00:56:21
Red D
That's it. Really, Jamie?
00:56:22
El Platypo
Yeah, Jesus, yeah. So many.
00:56:26
Red D
Oh, yes.
00:56:26
El Platypo
Like, yeah.
00:56:26
Jen
yeah I've heard more specifically related to work dreams, like I'll actually have a nightmare that I haven't done a specific work task.
00:56:35
Red D
ah yes
00:56:35
Jen
And I wake up and I know that I did do it. that i It's just in the dream I didn't do it. the
00:56:41
Red D
Actually the other night I dreamed someone tried to fire me so that I'd take that but that's very rare for me to dream about someone at work.
00:56:47
El Platypo
Hmm I'm waiting for the reality of that People humiliating me about it really
00:56:49
Jen
Yeah, yeah, same.
00:56:52
Jen
Oh no.
00:56:53
Red D
Jamie what do you dream of work like what are your work dreams generally?
00:56:59
Jen
Oh.
00:56:59
Red D
Oh my gosh this I know some people think that people talking about their dreams is very, like, boring. Well, one person I want to say this, but I find this fascinating about your dream.
00:57:11
Jen
Yeah, me too, I love it. I love hearing other those people, isn't it?
00:57:13
Red D
Yeah.
00:57:16
Jen
Telling people my own scene, what they make of it. Maybe we're just all very basic, we're the three of us. Thank God we found each other.
00:57:23
Red D
Like, I don't know. I feel like I'm going to say I love this. I heard it on a podcast. She's a podcast host. I love her, but I think she doesn't have that much curiosity maybe about that kind of thing for whatever reason. Or maybe the people she knows has really boring dreams because I find it fascinating. I did it. Okay. Moving on because a maybe we can get this in an under an hour. Star player. Jenny, are you ready?
00:57:49
Jen
um not really is anyone else? want and oh is our mute again is our mute?
00:57:55
Red D
Well, Jamie, over to you. Oh.
00:58:04
Jen
honestly people will be calling into the profession calling into question the professionalism of this outfit
00:58:10
Red D
That's true. I've never heard a podcast.
00:58:10
El Platypo
everyone highly leadershipship
00:58:12
Red D
I've never.
00:58:13
El Platypo
ah and So moving on to the next agenda item, start player.
00:58:14
Red D
I have listened. Sorry, just to interject. I've listened to like thousands of hours of podcasts. I've never heard anyone say, hey, you're on mute.
00:58:20
Jen
yes
00:58:20
Red D
I'd like to one on the other.
00:58:22
Jen
So this is more like a work call.
00:58:24
Red D
ah Brilliant. Go ahead Jamie.
00:58:29
Jen
test
00:58:30
El Platypo
um
00:58:31
Red D
Oh, sorry. I just saw your message in the chat. Is that why you muted?
00:58:36
El Platypo
I know that was about 15 minutes ago to inform you that a cat had just bitten and farted on me at the same time.
00:58:38
Red D
Oh, sorry.
00:58:41
Red D
Okay.
00:58:42
El Platypo
um I felt it was important that you and the listeners knew this when you brought it to their attention.
00:58:48
El Platypo
I can't look beyond the doctor, actually. He's that damn good in this. I can't come up with my left field alternative options.
00:59:02
Jen
I've chosen mine because Jay went with the Doctor.
00:59:03
Red D
He was good.
00:59:03
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:59:04
Red D
Great.
00:59:06
Jen
I'm actually going to go with Kes and my reason is that she's not nothing against the actress but she's never really been a particular favourite character of mine um and therefore I don't think there's going to be that many opportunities for me to nominate her so on this occasion I want to nominate her because her expression when the doc announced his ah romantic feelings for Tanara was just priceless.
00:59:06
Red D
Yes. Yes.
00:59:31
El Platypo
And she is the harbinger of love who sets it all up.
00:59:36
Red D
Yes, she does help move things along. I think that's made my choice easy. I am going to go for Tom Paris because I like the fact that the doctor went to an unlikely source of help because, you know, they have a, and then Tom was willing to help him.
00:59:52
Red D
And I know we all agree that that was a very cheesy first date spot to pick, but in the end it worked.
00:59:56
El Platypo
hmm and that was all that they had Tom Paris written all over it boomtown quick music t-rex music
01:00:01
Red D
Yeah, so he was, like his, he helped move things along, I guess.
01:00:07
Red D
Uh, okay. Well, very good. I think we are wrapping up at nine o'clock on the dot. Very nice. So time to dance. Time to dance, Jamie.
01:00:19
Red D
Thank you, everybody. See you in two weeks. And as Jamie needs a very long extended Christmas break.
01:00:24
El Platypo
What are you trying to say here?
01:00:26
Red D
Well, I'll just refer you back to the beginning where you're like, see you next year.
01:00:30
El Platypo
What are you trying to say?
01:00:30
Jen
Yeah, in November.
01:00:32
El Platypo
I have no idea.
01:00:34
Red D
Is that how you deal with work emails now? See you in the new year.
01:00:38
El Platypo
Yeah, pretty much these days
01:00:40
Jen
Oh gosh, have you guys ever accidentally said to someone, have a great weekend on like, Wednesday? Because I've done that.
01:00:49
Red D
I've come close. I've come close. I said to someone, Hey, like let's just to finalize plans on Friday. They were like tomorrow. I was like Friday is tomorrow. Okay. Well on that note, I'm going to stop recording and then we'll just hang on here for our uploads.