Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
We watch "Dreadnought" (S2 Ep.17)
7 Plays1 month ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Dreadnought”, where B’Elanna has to deal with the very real and very terrifying consequences of a decision she made in the Alpha quadrant.
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at [email protected].
Theme music by Alain D
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Energy Levels
00:00:00
El Platypo
Let's bring it. Let's bring it. Let's bring it. Let's bring it. Let's bring it.
00:00:03
red23
I'm trying to manage things.
00:00:04
El Platypo
Let's bring it. Bring some heat.
00:00:05
red23
Oh, there we go, there we go.
00:00:06
El Platypo
Bring some energy. Bring some energy. Bring some energy. Bring some heat. Let's go left. Go left. Bring it up. Bring it up. Bring it down.
00:00:13
red23
I'm so happy this is not on camera.
00:00:13
El Platypo
Bring it down. Bring it left. Bring it left. Bring it down. Bring it down.
00:00:18
red23
Oh, what kind of a sweat, Jamie?
00:00:18
El Platypo
Bring it up.
00:00:19
red23
What's happening?
00:00:20
Jen
know.
00:00:21
El Platypo
Bring it up. Bring it down. Bring it down. Yeah.
00:00:26
red23
Okay, spontaneous gym class.
00:00:28
El Platypo
Silence.
00:00:34
El Platypo
In case anyone was wondering, that was my effort to avoid this turning into the sort of degenerate shambles it normally does when I comp here.
00:00:36
red23
tired.
00:00:38
Jen
yeah
00:00:44
El Platypo
I don't want to say moderate. Hello, and welcome to this week's edition of Janeway's Children. I am joined by the one, the only, the r RE Double Wear.
00:00:57
El Platypo
Actually, I'm not supposed to use names, am I? So I can't actually give the intro that I wanted, but I was going with chaos. Hello. Lovely to see you both. How are you both doing?
00:01:05
red23
All good, Jamie. And sorry to jump in there, ah Jenny. But Jamie has just given me those Ben Gibbitt vibes again. Remember that rockstar I told you guys about? He's like, I need to send you the video. He's reminding me so much.
00:01:18
El Platypo
Okay. Um, duly noted. Season two, episode 17, Dreadnought. It's time for a one minute summary. And for once, I'm not going to be the one doing it as I'm the one moderating and I make all the rules.
00:01:32
red23
That's not how it works.
00:01:34
El Platypo
Excellent. Would you, but would you both like to give me a summary as I think you enjoyed this one and this won't be too much of a derail for you.
00:01:40
Jen
Both of us. Oh gosh.
00:01:43
El Platypo
It's a collective effort. We're hive minding it.
00:01:46
Jen
um I can do one. i I'm just going to warn everyone that in this, you know, highly professional polished um series we do, um I am working with a slight delay on my hand.
00:01:48
red23
Go for it.
00:01:58
Jen
so ah um You know, just apologizing in advance to anyone listening. or accidentally talking over my lovely friends.
Summary of Season 2, Episode 17
00:02:07
Jen
My one minute summary is, so we've got Belana who's programmed this missile back when she was working as a you know undercover marquee sort of secret agent working against the Cardassians, well not really secret so much, but and she's programmed this missile to attack Cardassian or some kind of outpost of Cardassia, some military outpost
00:02:30
Jen
But it's it's gone AWOL. It's found its way all the way to the Delta Quadrant. And now she must find a way um through all these strategic um hypothetical war games to stop it from basically accidentally plowing into a planet of poor, peaceful, non-war-wongering aliens and killing two million of them. Very exciting.
00:02:56
red23
That was a brilliant summary, Jenny.
00:02:58
El Platypo
I'm quite interested by the use of the adjective exciting to describe the potential death of 2 million innocent aliens, but we'll move on from that.
00:02:59
Jen
Oh, thank you.
00:03:06
Jen
This is a good point.
00:03:09
El Platypo
No, I think that was a great summary. I am absolutely loving it. I love the allusion to the history that the marquee on that ship have. And I love the chance that it has felt rare thus far in the series to actually get to see some quality time with Bellana front and centre. But other than that, what were people's initial reactions to this one?
00:03:34
red23
Go, Jenny.
Reactions and Personal Connections
00:03:35
El Platypo
ah No, we are we are not doing hands.
00:03:35
Jen
i have one
00:03:36
red23
Her hand is up. Her hand is up.
00:03:38
El Platypo
We are not in corporate land here.
00:03:39
Jen
all right to do hands I have to do hands hands because of my awful delay on my crappy old laptop, which will be replaced in the next month, for sure.
00:03:40
El Platypo
We will speak over each other or we shall not speak at all There will be no hands carry on Well, I mean that was worth putting your hand up for
00:03:51
Jen
Anyway, I've forgotten the question.
00:03:56
red23
Initial reaction.
00:03:57
Jen
How do you show reactions? reactions? I know, I know, I got so overexcited and then I forgot it. I'm like a child.
00:04:03
El Platypo
This is when we pump up the energy at the start.
00:04:04
Jen
and
00:04:06
El Platypo
This is this is where we need to be emotionally.
00:04:06
Jen
but by My initial reaction is, because I don't ah often have the strong initial reactions with this one, ah from the name alone, I could actually remember it really well.
00:04:19
Jen
And quite often, and episodes, I can't even remember them at all.
00:04:19
red23
Wow.
00:04:21
Jen
And then when I do, it's just little bits here and there. But I remember this one so well just from the name. um And I think it's just a sign that I really like this one. um It's a favourite. I'm not even sure why, but I liked it.
00:04:34
El Platypo
Hmm, nice. Red, does any initial takes?
00:04:39
red23
Yes, I mean, I think I just love the Bologna vs. Bologna. Like, she's super smart and now she has to face her super smart self, which is very entertaining.
00:04:44
Jen
Mm.
00:04:49
red23
And I like the fact that they dropped a few little... There were a few little elements of other stories that are like, gonna be fleshed out in future episodes, or like, um, Ensign Wildman and her baby, or the cheval Tom Paris, or the spy guy, his name, I can't remember, but it was mostly the Bologna vs.
00:05:08
red23
Bologna, but enough like as someone who's rewatching the episode it was like fun to see those little other bits that they just dropped in there because it reminds me of what's coming.
00:05:16
Jen
Mm.
00:05:16
El Platypo
ah Agreed. No, agreed. There did seem to be more sort of nods to subplots that were getting to bear fruit in further episodes and haven't helped us progress the overall story arc in there, so that I enjoyed. and I mean, I really, actually, one of my favourite bits of the episode um was entirely apart from the plot. It was just the doctor and Kez at the beginning in their chemistry talking to Ensign Wallman and the doctor taking offence at the fact that Kez never offered him her father's name as a potential name. um yeah like ah we Are we still doing one cool thing? Can I say my one cool thing?
00:05:58
red23
You're going to, oh, yes, you can do one cool thing, but it's quite be something that happened in the episode and has to be something about the episode.
00:06:01
El Platypo
so
00:06:05
El Platypo
It's something about the episode, Red.
00:06:06
red23
Right.
00:06:06
El Platypo
Some of us, some of us try and maintain the... I've lost the word!
00:06:14
Jen
Standard?
00:06:14
El Platypo
God! Some of us try and maintain the conventions, the illusion of conventions as well, but the conventions when we're actually...
00:06:16
red23
Illusion.
00:06:23
El Platypo
ah I'm having a
Subplots and Humorous Chemistry
00:06:24
El Platypo
really bad day. I was going to say coordinating, but in this case we mean moderating. Because we are, as everyone knows, an argumentative bunch of little ferrets. So my one cool thing is I found out that ro Roxanne Dawson, the actress who plays Bolana, felt like she developed a similar relationship to Bolana's with the Dreadnought in programming it for Hours on End, from the hours she spent basically in voice recordings on loop recording her own voice,
00:06:56
El Platypo
for the actual Dreadnought itself. So she basically had to record all that over hours and hours and hours and she sort of felt like it helped her get the sort of relationship with the voice recordings that Bolana did with Dreadnought just by having to do that for such a prolonged period of time.
00:07:09
red23
oh
00:07:12
El Platypo
I think I might have read she felt it was a deliberately ah prolonged period of time by the producers in order to generate exactly that effect.
00:07:20
red23
Oh yeah she must have been working very hard that week or those two weeks that it takes to
00:07:26
Jen
Yeah.
00:07:28
El Platypo
Agreed, agreed. So I think it is possibly time, without further ado, we move into folks thoughts. So I'm going to be following our typical format of I'll say that I'll go one than the other than the other, but really what I'll do is bounce on people's individual points to other things, get back in medias res, loop back to the beginning, start at the end,
00:07:50
El Platypo
And then hopefully it'll come through like a melange of Star Trek briants that are three listeners confirmed here and spike up to maybe 3.3 listeners.
00:08:02
El Platypo
So go for it.
00:08:03
red23
Can I just say something?
00:08:03
El Platypo
Who would like to go first? Please.
00:08:05
red23
Good luck listeners. That's all I wanted to say.
00:08:07
El Platypo
ah
00:08:08
Jen
Yes, yes, I wanted to say something similar along the lines of that read, but also Jamie, I'm quite impressed at the combination of forgetting words and many, many words that's going on today.
00:08:18
El Platypo
When you can't find the right ones, quantity is quality.
00:08:18
Jen
Well done.
00:08:22
El Platypo
As I say, both about my approach to applying for jobs and indeed, well, I'm not going to go with that particular metaphor, that particular armed force is rather unpopular at the moment and rightly so.
00:08:35
El Platypo
So anyway, who would like to go first?
00:08:39
red23
you the moderator you pick someone
00:08:41
El Platypo
Well folk was saying things about hands in the air and things like that and an enthusiasm to adopt classroom behaviors Have I have I stamped that out already because if so, I'm incredibly proud of myself Although our listeners may again judge me for this joy Okay, I
00:08:45
Jen
Oh, no, no, no, that.
00:08:54
Jen
No, no, no, I was thinking that ah that was for the initial reactions, but I'm definitely with red on this. We need a, we need a system. We need an order Jamie. You, you say what you say goes.
00:09:02
red23
You the moderator. You pick someone.
00:09:05
El Platypo
Well, I would like to start off with red. Now, would you like me to pick your point to talk to? Or would you like to just pick your own point, Reggie?
The Doctor's Identity Struggles
00:09:14
red23
Well, I like to go in a slightly chronological order, so I might start with my first point.
00:09:18
El Platypo
Well, I'm moderating so you're not allowed to. Start at precisely the middle one.
00:09:22
red23
Ah, going back to the start of my list. Um, it was more just, um, a little point, so this won't take very long, but as you said, the episode opens and it's Ensign Wildman in the sickbay, and she's pregnant, uh, with a doctor and a kiss, and she's trying to come up with a name for her baby boy.
00:09:35
El Platypo
oh
00:09:41
red23
But, Jenny. She has a baby girl, doesn't she? In the future?
00:09:48
Jen
Yes.
00:09:49
red23
Yes, so can I not sex a baby in the 24th century, I guess?
00:09:54
El Platypo
I mean I hang on you're assuming that they wanted to know what gender the child was as opposed to As opposed to they might have had all of their daughter's names already chosen and they just couldn't settle on a boy's name just in case.
00:09:55
Jen
is it so Is it too early still? Like, well, hmm.
00:10:03
red23
Because she was asking... No, she definitely referred to it as he in trying to pick a name.
00:10:13
El Platypo
Really?
00:10:13
Jen
Oh, oh.
00:10:14
El Platypo
Well, maybe they were just being a bit unreconstructed and they hadn't thought through the politics of it.
00:10:18
red23
Yes, yes.
00:10:19
El Platypo
Or indeed the plot continuity.
00:10:20
Jen
Lack, yeah, lack of continuity, oh my goodness.
00:10:24
El Platypo
oh Outrageous. If Captain Janeway was directing this there was absolutely no way that sort of emotional frim-fram would have been allowed to take place. I'm outraged.
00:10:34
red23
Well, as I think I heard, I think I heard Bill Lawrence say this, the right of scrubs. No one ever expected anyone to watch every single one of the episodes that they ever had on show.
00:10:45
red23
And I guess no one definitely expected people to rewatch them. um Like he said i once on a podcast, said like if someone watched like one out of four of your shows when it's been like live broadcast, whatever, that would be like a good amount.
00:10:49
El Platypo
Yes.
00:10:58
red23
So yes, there.
00:10:58
Jen
Oh wow, I mean I've definitely watched all the scrubs and rewatched it. so Oh I see!
00:11:02
red23
Yes, but when it was only available on TV, you would have just seen it if you were at home. You know, yes, yes.
00:11:08
Jen
Oh my goodness, yeah!
00:11:09
red23
Remember about those days, remember those days.
00:11:11
Jen
Yeah, wow!
00:11:12
El Platypo
No subscriptions.
00:11:14
Jen
That is crazy.
00:11:15
red23
ah Anyway, that was just my very small little point to kick us off.
00:11:17
El Platypo
Also, Jenny, you've just been joined by small mobile Black Shadow behind you.
00:11:21
Jen
I know! ah moa
00:11:24
El Platypo
Little cat.
00:11:25
red23
Your cat's always taunting me.
00:11:25
Jen
Our cat Moir named after, i'm gonna I'm gonna just jump in and explain this purely because it's actually kind of vaguely related to this broadcast. Our cat Moir named after the really obscure Australian sci-fi fantasy show Farscape, where the ship, the living biological ship, is called Moir.
00:11:44
red23
Oh, very nice.
00:11:46
Jen
Carry on.
00:11:47
El Platypo
Not at all. ah So that's interesting. so And I like your pickup and plot continuity. And I like the fact you have put us in the bracket of fans that I'm not going to say they didn't want, but they weren't expecting. I think that's a far more positive way of saying it.
00:12:02
El Platypo
Um, I am going to actually, I think we should stick against all of my instincts with, uh, the chronological. I would like to point out a rather interesting thing that comes out in my head from the doctor's conversation with Kes.
00:12:21
El Platypo
as Kes tries to keep suggesting names to the doctor that he might potentially name himself from various ah different societies and planets and to each of them he comes up with compelling historical reasons why not and it just occurs to me that after so much history and so much time By that stage, every single name must have had some person who had that name, who was an appalling dictator, criminal, mass murderer, or something of that ilk, making selection of names particularly problematic. If like the dots, you presumably have an idetic memory and recall and database.
00:13:01
Jen
me That's why he finds it so hard, isn't it?
00:13:02
red23
Yeah.
00:13:04
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:13:05
Jen
I like the ah ah like the whole ah input from Kes where she says, ah, but I can give you some names because you don't know anything about my species. I'm an entirely new species.
00:13:15
Jen
You have no database on our species. She actually has some novel names.
00:13:20
El Platypo
Diversity of input. Love it. Get HR involved. This is the sort of stuff we need to get behind.
00:13:25
red23
ah
00:13:26
El Platypo
ah Jen, leaving aside the fact that I've just responded to something entirely positive by unleashing the cur curse of HR Nosferatu on it, what would you like to start with as your first thing that you liked about this?
00:13:40
Jen
well seeing as we're quite um you know commenting quite early on in the episode i actually have a comment on the teaser bit at the start which hardly ever happens um i just thought it was a really good teaser cliffhanger like i was genuinely like oh intrigued you know because um you know they they find this um you know remain remain debris and um you know i can't remember they also find the actual dread thought during teaser possibly not anyway it's all cardassian right so of course you know jane way
00:13:48
El Platypo
wo
00:14:10
Jen
obviously he says, you know, this must be Cesca. Who else could it be? And Bolana says, no, it's me. But da but how could it be Bolana? It's a mystery. It's all very intriguing. I thought that was a little nice little cliffhanger.
00:14:26
red23
Oh, yes, I agree. I am really love that twist. And I could just imagine like, I don't know, 15 year old, 16 year old, I was a very immature teenager watching this episode and be like, ooh, things just got like, you knew a good story was on its way, I guess, like, yeah.
00:14:41
Jen
Yeah, you're like, what?
00:14:42
El Platypo
Yeah.
Excitement for Upcoming Episodes
00:14:45
El Platypo
Ah, so I'm going to use that actually as as a prompt to bounce from Jenny's first point almost to Red's last one. um Because i I'm wondering if that sort of cliffhanger and the unexpected that it was not Cesca who was responsible for the Kardashian-flavored destruction of a vessel, ah if that was what you meant by that point, or if you had something else in mind, Red.
00:15:11
El Platypo
You might need to tell everyone what your very last point
00:15:11
red23
My very last point. I love the way Jamie can just, his eyes just go to wherever I've written Jamie in my list of things. And I nearly wrote it in caps lock because by accident caps lock was on.
00:15:24
red23
I was like, I can't even in caps lock. He's going to like zone in on that straight away. If he's moderating, like why is my name in caps lock?
00:15:29
El Platypo
Well, I mean, 30% of it is that.
00:15:30
red23
and job
00:15:33
El Platypo
60% of it is the fact that you told me that I had to be chronological. 10% is the fact that actually it seemed relevant given the fact that it was to Clispanger to Gotcha. Gotcha.
00:15:43
red23
Well, it's a gotcha for the next episode.
00:15:46
El Platypo
Oh, oh, wow.
00:15:46
red23
So, toughpa because I mean, we can talk about it now, but my normally obviously like stop playing at the end of the episode, but I was and know running the kitchen or something and so continue playing.
00:15:58
red23
And when I came back, I noticed that the next episode has our first cue, but not the cue that you love, but AQ.
00:16:00
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:16:03
El Platypo
o
00:16:03
Jen
yeah Oh!
00:16:04
El Platypo
id I'd...
00:16:06
red23
So I was like, oh, what if Jamie saw that?
00:16:06
El Platypo
AQ! Oh no, I didn't see that. I didn't see that. Gosh, no.
00:16:11
red23
So but that's a big episode coming, but yeah.
00:16:12
Jen
Oh, ah there's been a few good ones now.
00:16:12
El Platypo
Wow.
00:16:16
Jen
yeah and
00:16:16
El Platypo
Yeah, they're finally, finally, finally hitting their stride.
00:16:17
Jen
the coach there
00:16:20
El Platypo
And I, talking of hitting their stride, if, if focused on mine, I'd quite like to bounce to my sort of, uh, It's not in chronological order, but ah in terms of hitting the stride, in this episode of all episodes, I really felt that where, unlike you both, I've ah've yet to get into this headspace of Janeway, this moral titan that you both feel her,
00:16:46
El Platypo
to be. I felt her to be an extraordinary and fantastic great captain.
00:16:51
Jen
you.
00:16:53
El Platypo
But hearing this episode to me she for the first time actually sort of moves beyond that with effectively whilst the presence of the dreadnought is not her fault. She ah and unthinkingly offers to sacrifice her crew's one means of getting back to the Delta Quadrant, and potentially pushing all of her crew at risk to say nothing of her first command.
00:17:19
El Platypo
to for the opportunity to try and save two million people. And to me, in in my eyes, that's sort of the first moment where she shows in world depth beyond just the, they're a great skipper sort of level. And I know I just massively ruined that with that accent, but I'd be interested in your take on on my awakening appreciation. I still feel that morally she should save us all Neelix's presence in all the episodes by just sending him out and ever an airlock but I'm apparently not allowed to you know agitate for that.
Captain Janeway's Moral Dilemmas
00:17:52
red23
ah Well, I'm happy that you're joining the Janeway Fan Club. I'm concerned that she might have to kill herself or to get some recognition from you.
00:18:04
red23
But um yes, she has very...
00:18:05
El Platypo
I come from Catholic traditions, martyrdom or nothing.
00:18:10
red23
Well, then you're really gonna like her. So um welcome welcome to the club.
00:18:16
Jen
Yeah, I agree. And I love how you talked about all the stuff she was sacrificing, but didn't mention also her life. It was just like quite a big deal.
00:18:27
El Platypo
Well, I didn't want to mention...
00:18:27
Jen
Yeah, she's, I think it's the combination though. Do you know, I think Red and I love her not just because of like her strong moral principles, but it's like the combination of a strong moral principles and being a good female leadership um role model I guess as well as like you know super intelligent and with really big hair I mean what's not to like caring but also assertive and you know dominant when needed to be it's a good balance
00:18:47
red23
Yes, I mean, I just love how she really cares about her crew and listens to them and pays attention to them and cares about them, thinks that, well, yeah.
00:19:00
El Platypo
Well, this is all delightful. and a heartwarming example of how well we think she caps and so I think it's only appropriate to move from there to an instance where it's disgraceful how she lets something slide and move and I think we will pick this up to the fact that and you didn't pick it up from this angle she doesn't pick Tom up on turning up late and dishevelled to the briefing tell me about your thoughts on Tom at the briefing room Was he disheveled?
00:19:31
El Platypo
Should he have been, I don't know, Keelhauled?
00:19:32
Jen
well
00:19:34
El Platypo
Tell me your thoughts.
00:19:36
Jen
but But Jamie, it is not Janeway's role. She is busy captioning. That is that is the, what do we call it, first officer's role to you know personnel. So you know I think we can let that one slide for Janeway not noticing.
00:19:48
El Platypo
I mean, I don't know about that. There's questions need to be answered. It's degenerating into an emotional shambles there while she doesn't put the boot down.
00:19:56
red23
Well, I did have something on this point because for once I remembered to listen to the corresponding episode of Delta Fly's podcast, even though I now have the worst podcast of all time, but anyway.
00:19:59
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:20:07
red23
um And they that scene really triggered quite a discussion with them because they were like, was? Well because Chakotay dresses Tom down for being and says like you need to be dressed properly and yes he runs in late his hair is the shape up but they were like was he not dressed properly?
00:20:24
red23
Like he still looked properly dressed like why didn't they like um so that was quite funny because they were like no they were like he should have been unzipped he should have like I mean they said things that would never have happened they were like you know it should have been zipped like his chest should have been exposed I'm like these things just
00:20:25
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:20:28
El Platypo
Was he unzipped?
00:20:38
El Platypo
Assless chaps, that sort of thing, yeah.
00:20:40
red23
wouldn't happen. um Imagine if you ran into just the gray like polo neck and not like the over top.
00:20:45
El Platypo
ah What, like, as as though he had a dog collar on.
00:20:45
red23
I mean like that just seems a bit extreme.
00:20:47
Jen
I think he should have had like, maybe he should have had gravy like dripping down his front legs.
00:20:50
red23
What? Yes, he could have been a bit sloppier. That's true, but.
00:20:55
Jen
Well, I kind of took that the fact that he's you can barely see anything wrong with his dress is it's like the army the military and you know if there's like a teeny crease, they get in big trouble.
00:21:02
red23
Yes.
00:21:07
Jen
ah But it does make um it seemed like a bit more of a military operation. um So I don't know how I feel about that.
00:21:14
red23
They did a Starfleet, and Jamie, are you making that charming sound at the background?
00:21:15
El Platypo
yeah
00:21:18
El Platypo
Sorry, I'm fiddling with a bottle opener.
00:21:20
Jen
It's always Jamie.
00:21:23
red23
oh
00:21:25
El Platypo
Well, I mean, okay, I'm just trying to show why the lack of discipline that Tom Parrish shows can be a detractor to crew morale.
00:21:37
red23
Well, being late would annoy me if I asked the rest of the crew. Don't get me wrong.
00:21:42
El Platypo
Yeah, it's a good thing I'm not in a Star Trek vessel. I do want to go, though, from a moment of poor captaincy that to Tom Paris is the unwitting victim of, um to a moment where Tom absolutely shines, because I think both Jenny and I picked up on this, his line of the episode.
00:22:03
El Platypo
Actually, was it Jenny?
00:22:03
red23
Not me.
00:22:05
Jen
I did pick up on ah the Paris line.
00:22:06
El Platypo
Yeah it was. yeah It was a great line it was and I think you should you should give it.
00:22:08
Jen
Yeah.
00:22:13
Jen
Oh, okay. I don't know if I could do it justice, but it was an excellent comedic Paris moment. And, you know, usually the doctor is my go-to, you know, comedy comedyd character. um But I do think Paris occasionally gets some great comedic line delivery. So this one was, when a bomb starts talking about itself in the third person, I get worried.
00:22:34
red23
it was a great line
00:22:36
El Platypo
Yeah, so I start to worry about the bomb's mental health. I should sort of point out, and now I feel compelled to do this, but I i found like the slight unraveling of Tom Paris over the last episodes a bit contrived. I mean, did it ring true to you guys? And is there some sort of plot trigger for this that has led to it that I should be aware of? or
00:23:03
red23
Well you should definitely not be a weird but interesting take. Unless I'm getting confused.
00:23:07
El Platypo
Well, I don't know, it's just, it's just like over the last few episodes, there's been a couple of things like there's the whole, oh, he's suddenly, you know, running a gambling ring.
00:23:09
red23
But okay.
00:23:15
El Platypo
And then, and then this where it's completely unexplained that he's in there and disheveled.
00:23:16
red23
Oh yes.
00:23:16
Jen
Whoa.
00:23:20
El Platypo
And he seems sort of sort of regressed from where he was with the whole redemptive arc with Ensign Kim, putting him on the straight and narrow and all of these things.
00:23:31
El Platypo
So I'm a bit, what's going on there?
00:23:34
red23
Well, you and Robert Duncan-McNeil are confused. Don't worry. Because on the podcast that I listened to, he was like, why did I say that line?
00:23:44
red23
You know, when he's with Belanna and she's like, what's wrong? Like, why are you acting like this? And he, his final line, or when he says something, I can't remember what line he's meant specifically.
00:23:52
El Platypo
Oh, yeah.
00:23:54
red23
But he says things like, oh, you seem to be fitting in well. I'm kind of jealous. And there's this, maybe you remember the line thing.
00:23:58
El Platypo
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then is she says that she's basically getting on with it. And he's like, I'm kind of jealous of that as though he's struggling with it.
00:24:08
red23
So I don't know if it was that line or something similar, but he was like, the actor was like, yeah, I don't know why I played that line so forcefully. And I'm like, because you're like, anyway, it was just kind of funny because he was like, oh, that should have just been a throwaway comment.
00:24:22
red23
But if it's just a throwaway comment, we wouldn't realize that something was going on, I think. So I think he played it the correct way.
00:24:28
El Platypo
Right.
00:24:28
red23
Maybe he's just forgotten what he was trying to do.
00:24:31
El Platypo
But what was going on for him?
00:24:34
red23
Well, you'll have to watch the next episode to find out.
00:24:36
Jen
Yeah, it' so is this this is like the start of something, isn't it, Red? If I remember it correctly.
00:24:40
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:24:41
red23
Well, we've got Tom acting a bit strange and we've got a known spy feeding stuff to the sesqui people, what are they called?
00:24:50
Jen
Yeah, yeah, the caisson, whatever it is.
00:24:51
red23
Oh my god.
00:24:52
El Platypo
I mean...
00:24:54
red23
K for picking.
00:24:54
Jen
Yeah, and I mean, I guess I understand where you're coming from, because it feels like you had like a sort of epiphany redemption episode.
00:24:55
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:25:02
Jen
um because originally his character was a bit like that because you he was ah he was the odd one out of all of them you know he wasn't Marquis and he wasn't Starfleet he was like prison came being taken from prison and so he was he didn't really fit in and struggle with that and then there's this whole like backstory that you learn where like his dad has a really awkward difficult relationship with his father but yeah I feel like there's another sort of
00:25:22
El Platypo
Mmm.
00:25:30
Jen
story coming that we sort of find out a bit more about later.
00:25:34
El Platypo
left annoyingly unexplained with this one, but I'm going to have to leave it, and know I'm going to have to keep our listeners in that sort of space.
00:25:37
Jen
Just to keep you keep you watching.
00:25:44
El Platypo
I feel red. I've done an awful lot of pivoting to tangential stuff that isn't engaging with Dreadnought, and you have a wealth of Dreadnought thoughts, so I'd love you to give us some of
00:25:53
red23
I do not. um Well, the first Dreadnought thought... ah What is the first Dreadnought thought? Oh, well, I just like the fact that Dreadnought was so clever and that Balana had helped make it.
00:26:09
red23
I mean, it was obviously a very highly sophisticated weapon when ah the monkey intercepted it, ah but um
00:26:13
El Platypo
Oh.
00:26:16
red23
they made it even clearer and Balana knew all about the technical specs of this very sophisticated thing. So when they first try and like track it or whatever, I think Harry thinks he's picked it up and she's like, no, that's not it. It actually sends a reflection of itself like a hundred thousand kilometers away and the camera pounds to two buck and he looks like impressed. And it's very hard to impress two buck, but I was like, ah even he thinks ah this this weapon or whatever is clever. Cause normally he would you know would have some kind of Um, I don't know, it's not a comment about, well, that's not very good or something.
00:26:50
El Platypo
that's That's a bit over emotional sort of thing.
00:26:53
red23
Yeah, so, um, yeah, that was my first point about Dreadnought.
00:26:59
El Platypo
Interesting. I mean, I think the concept of Dreadnought as, frankly, just this random weapon of mass destruction and almost completely different to most of what we're used to seeing in start Star Trek universe weaponry of ship to ship combat, this AI intelligent weapon of mass destruction that fails at the last moment because of a kinetic connector that fails to
Technical Complexity and Performances
00:27:33
El Platypo
go off.
00:27:33
El Platypo
I found that quite a nice dramatic device. um Yeah.
00:27:38
red23
I couldn't help thinking if the writers were basing that on a true story. I wanted to do some research because, well, yes, they had that kind of, I mean, not, I mean, they couldn't envision AI, but I mean, it didn't need to be an AI.
00:27:43
Jen
ah Yeah.
00:27:43
El Platypo
They had
00:27:51
red23
It could just be a remote controlled or whatever good type of weapon. But I felt like there was an element of truth that this weapon had like all this hardcore tech and then someone just overlooked the basic thing.
00:28:02
red23
And that's why it didn't detonate, I guess, the first time around back in the Alpha quadrant.
00:28:02
El Platypo
Yeah. And I think Jenny, you had, you had another thing that surprised you about how that Dredmos employs its technology.
00:28:14
Jen
Um, yeah, I mean, I, I mean, I did just want to actually say that I think it's a, it's a really interesting point, right? Like I wonder, it would be interesting to speak to the writers and say, was this based on something you read in some obscure history book about this happening?
00:28:31
Jen
It was probably in multiple wars and situations. I can imagine this kind of thing happening.
00:28:35
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:28:36
Jen
Um, yeah, I mean, I feel like I was trying to, uh, the problem is,
00:28:37
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:28:42
Jen
When there's like an episode or a storyline that I really like, ah I engage with it so much that I then have a lot of ah like, criticisms of it, it sort of comes across a little bit, not, not the case.
00:28:56
Jen
ah I like it. But ah yeah, so like one of them was, for instance, I just kept saying, oh, but but could you do this? Could you do that? I think it's just a problem solving approach that I can't help employing.
00:29:03
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:29:06
Jen
So one of them was, and i'll like I'll just stick to one, because, you know, it's going to be very boring to listen to otherwise. But um I just thought maybe, you know, Dreadnought would have some kind of technology to scan its target and find out the biology of the aliens it wants to destroy to check they are, in fact, Cardassian.
00:29:26
Jen
Because then it would have immediately seen that it was the wrong target. but But, you know, then I have this little argument in my brain about it and I'm like, yes, but maybe this was part of the damage programming, you know, that Arna found.
00:29:35
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:29:37
Jen
And, you know, maybe there were reasons they didn't want to use that as ah as a confirmed targeting.
00:29:40
red23
yeah i mean it's to
00:29:43
Jen
You know, maybe there might be things you don't know.
00:29:47
El Platypo
I mean know I find that a really interesting point because it's a bit of a like weird one a around to me around what level of contextual knowledge do we assume any of the intellectual agents slash entities we come across have and how much do you need to be able to form reasonable
00:30:02
red23
Yeah, I mean, it did.
00:30:11
El Platypo
slash solid conclusions from, it's always a point of question for me. And one of the things that this episode does, and maybe I should pick up on it, the themes is it, it sort of positions you because of the fact that it's threatening something you care about in a place of trying to understand the dreadnought's perspective and why it's coming to the conclusions it is as to this planet must be targets because I can't be in the Delta Quadrant, there must be deception.
00:30:39
El Platypo
therefore the Kardashians must have got, you know, Balana is trying to stop me, Balana is the one who programmed me to do this, so she must have been gotten to, and the sort of hoops of logic that it jumps through, and I found that really interesting.
00:30:53
red23
Yeah, I think back to Janie's point quickly. I mean, like we know that the Dreadnought has technology to scan DNA because it scans Milano when she comes in. But then I guess like what Janie is saying, and I also wrote down is like the Dreadnought just cannot accept it's an adult quadrant.
00:31:10
red23
So it's operating, its base assumption is just so off, but it's throwing everything off.
00:31:10
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:31:15
red23
And if it had been in the other quadrant, I guess it would only attack the correct in inverted commas. target And then of course they have to tell the story, Jane.
00:31:27
Jen
Yes, yes. this this This is why I didn't write down any of the other queer queries I had.
00:31:31
red23
Yes.
00:31:32
Jen
It's just it's a natural sort of problem solving. um And especially because the the whole episode is kind of about problem solving. And Balana is trying to think of different and, you know, out of the box ways to try and um problem solve.
00:31:38
red23
yes
00:31:44
Jen
um
00:31:44
red23
And you actually use the term, I think, at the start of the episode, which is war games or war gaming, which I sometimes come across in um
00:31:49
Jen
Mm.
00:31:51
red23
work for some reason. I don't know why people use the term when we're not at war, but I was like, ah, this is war gaming. It's just making up scenarios and falling ahead. But I guess this is a more, maybe I'm simplifying it, but I was like, okay, I think I understand that term a little bit more.
00:32:08
El Platypo
And that's sort of it and I really enjoyed it and I'm almost going to your point around what Balana didn't teach it but I love the fact that there's almost this this machine that goes so far in terms of taking the base pieces of information that's given in terms of modelling scenarios with such sophistication that actually gets it wrong.
00:32:37
El Platypo
And I think that feels, have you ever heard of Moravec's Dilemma?
00:32:42
red23
No.
00:32:43
Jen
No.
00:32:43
El Platypo
i I need to look it up. I heard it from Hannah Fry, but it was basically that it's easier to teach AIs to do complex rather than simple things. which she ended up saying was why we were more likely to get robot lawyers than butlers anytime soon.
00:33:00
red23
Oh yes, well also the physical stuff, although Nala is not a robot. but um
00:33:05
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:33:06
red23
Yes, I mean, it does make you think about like, if you just have your, if you just assume your base, um your base assumption is correct, you can go very wrong.
00:33:12
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:33:15
red23
I guess if you're not questioning, you're going right down to your first assumption, um which is always a bit scary.
00:33:15
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:33:19
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:33:23
El Platypo
Yeah, I'd agree. So, um rather than trying to continue guiding this conversation as proactive as I have, I think, Jenny, I'm going to bounce to a good self. What was the next thing that struck you about this wonderful episode?
00:33:38
Jen
Oh, well, I mean, I think I may have sort of covered it earlier a little bit, but um I think as you were talking about that really interesting um ah But at the start about B'lana doing all that voiceover work, um I really was impressed with her computer voice.
00:33:58
red23
Yes!
00:33:58
Jen
i just I just think it sounded like her, but so completely different to the character of B'lana interacting with it. ah And it ah it sounded like her, but it still sounded like a computer.
00:34:12
Jen
I just enjoyed that.
00:34:13
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:34:13
Jen
I thought that was a great little bit of acting there.
00:34:16
red23
I also had that as a point. I'll just jump on and be like, a yeah, really great computer voice. Harry Kim slash Garrett Wong said it was a great computer voice. And now I'm just thinking, I wonder if it's possible to get that voice and like put it on your Siri or your Alexa or your Google.
00:34:32
red23
Um, cause that would be really fun.
00:34:33
El Platypo
Roxanne Dawson, you have not lived in or acted in vain.
00:34:37
red23
It was such a good voice.
00:34:40
Jen
it was yes although i would say that is hilarious episode and i do love the big mega fairy but you see he just does it in pretty much his normal voice you know like there's a certain element of oh this is uh
00:34:40
El Platypo
Yeah, it's a bit like Gwen Sheldon in
00:34:40
red23
Such a perfect computer voice.
00:34:46
El Platypo
Sheldon reprograms the sat-nav on the Big Bang Theory to not only be in his voice but to give people quiz questions in a patronizing voice.
00:34:57
red23
i haven't seen that but
00:35:09
Jen
a voiceover work and so I'm going to speak like this but um it doesn't have that really, I don't know how to describe it, um formal, computery voice um tone to it that Milana does so well ah and when you sort of play that against her actual character voice which is quite, you know, I want to say emotional but it isn't really emotional because she's not like, that makes it sound like she's some kind of, yeah and she's half clean on so yeah but
00:35:19
red23
Well,
00:35:21
El Platypo
ah Invested.
00:35:22
red23
I haven't seen that.
00:35:34
red23
But it does get emotional more than I remembered. yeah Oh, sorry.
00:35:37
El Platypo
and
00:35:37
red23
yeah
00:35:38
El Platypo
i mean so
00:35:40
Jen
Go.
00:35:41
El Platypo
No, no, no. I mean, I was just um speaking of Belonna's voice. I absolutely love Red's point about how it must have felt to hear the voice for the first time on Dreadnought.
00:35:56
red23
Also, i'd love to but sorry, I'll just throw this in here, but when Dreadnought starts communicating with the bridge, um and everyone on the bridge hears Dreadnought's voice for the first time, and the camera's panning across the Captain and Shkote, and then people in the background, and it comes to Balana, I was like, if I was Balana, I would just die of embarrassment.
00:36:03
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:36:15
red23
At that moment, would just self-compass to be like, I'm out.
00:36:15
Jen
Yes, this is a very good point.
00:36:19
Jen
Yeah, yeah i but I mean, I didn't write this as a point, but I did cross my mind when she's first explaining why she used her own voice. um and she said I was just so sick of it.
00:36:28
red23
Yeah, that made sense.
00:36:30
Jen
It did make sense, but at the same time, I'm like, wow, I cannot imagine hating a cadetian voice and so thinking I'll replace it with my own, which will be less annoying.
00:36:35
El Platypo
No.
00:36:39
Jen
I mean, that just would not happen. i would I would replace it with anyone's voices.
00:36:43
El Platypo
No.
00:36:43
Jen
Neelix, anyone before my own. I mean, who likes to hear their own voice? Surely.
00:36:48
red23
No, that I mean, no nobody famously, but um I meant to hear your own voice threatening to like just wipe out like two million people on a planet.
00:36:48
Jen
Not that many.
00:36:57
red23
I'm like, oh no, this is too much, too much to bear.
00:37:01
El Platypo
I think that would be a hell of a high, but let's talk about that. I'm sorry.
00:37:04
red23
Okay.
00:37:06
El Platypo
ah here do you Do you guys mind if I e threw something in there, which I found curious? And it sort of signposted at the start by everyone immediately assuming the Kardashian involvement was Seska. And then us having the spider who normally interacts with Seska.
00:37:27
El Platypo
puzzled by the fact that Seskar, I've got to stop saying it in a dramatic voice, that Seskar wasn't actually there to hear his reports, suggesting either something has happened to her, or she's become a far bigger cazon big cheese than she was, or that there are factions within the cazon.
00:37:30
Jen
Thank you.
00:37:48
red23
Oh, they're waste factions, aren't they?
00:37:50
El Platypo
Yeah, yeah, there are indeed. Which also brings me to my point of how on earth do people trust the rumours the caisson spread full stop from effectively a ah race which is completely aggressive and warmongering, labelling another?
00:38:03
red23
Do you live on the planet Earth?
00:38:05
El Platypo
Do I live on the planet?
00:38:05
red23
Sorry.
00:38:06
El Platypo
Oh right, so.
00:38:06
red23
Yes. In history, there has been thousands of examples. What did you just say? ah
00:38:14
El Platypo
Well, yeah, I suppose. I mean, how deep in a hostile universe where you know nothing about anyone gauge friend from foe, I suppose, but yeah. Anyway, does anyone else know where Seskar is?
00:38:26
red23
Well, maybe she was acting or something else. That's why I'm here. But she's coming back because didn't she threaten last time to get pregnant with Jokota's baby? Is that the last time we saw her?
00:38:37
El Platypo
I thought she had said that she'd done it.
00:38:40
red23
Yeah, or like that.
00:38:41
El Platypo
Although she was telling everyone that the baby was there, so that's a bit weird.
00:38:41
red23
So.
00:38:45
red23
So she's still coming back again, right, Jenny?
00:38:48
Jen
Oh yeah, yeah, she's definitely not done.
00:38:48
red23
Yeah.
00:38:49
Jen
I can't remember which stage you were at, um to be honest.
00:38:52
red23
Yes.
00:38:53
Jen
I've watched this too many times, but um yeah, definitely not done with her.
00:38:54
red23
Me too. Me too.
00:38:58
Jen
I can't remember what heard the end of her is actually, to be honest, but um vote we'll find out.
00:39:02
El Platypo
Well, don't tell me I haven't seen it, spoilers!
00:39:03
red23
ah thanks
00:39:04
Jen
I won't, I won't.
00:39:06
red23
Okay.
00:39:06
El Platypo
Unless she goes down in a blaze of glory, taking down an entire qe borg cube, I don't want to hear it.
00:39:15
red23
okay
00:39:15
El Platypo
I feel she's got a redemption arc in her.
00:39:18
red23
Jamie, can I ask you a question? Sorry, because so
00:39:21
El Platypo
I mean, if if it's something basically alluding to my competence in moderating this, the answer is superbly and effortlessly, but carry on.
00:39:23
red23
but
00:39:30
red23
Well, I just don't want to forget this, but it it's about a scene earlier on, but I want to get your male perspective, I guess, and Jenny's perspective, but it relates also to listening to the Delta Fliers, so and from their perspective.
00:39:40
El Platypo
Can I just, so okay, right.
00:39:43
red23
So, you know the scene where, uh, Bolana confesses to Tom that it wasn't, because Chakotay gave the impression that him and Bolana agreed on this, setting this weapon on its mission.
00:39:56
red23
And then Bolana confesses to Tom and says, I guess she did it behind Chakotay's back. and he was very disappointed when he found out and asked her why she didn't trust him.
00:40:04
El Platypo
I mean,
00:40:06
red23
But she says this line where she's like, you know, in that damn soft voice of his, which I just interpreted to mean someone being disappointed in you is worse than being angry at you.
00:40:19
red23
That's just kind of my interpretation. What would your interpretation be of if someone said about like, oh, that damn soft voice of his?
00:40:29
El Platypo
I think it's almost the fact that it stings more when you're reprimanded because they're not employing the sorts of loud, angry, raging, intimidation tactics that are traditional for that and you'd be so much more used to hearing positive things from Chukote in that soft voice that it probably hits as hard as if I were to tell you both that I was morally disappointed in you both and felt your shame on this podcast.
00:41:03
red23
Oh, please don't ever say that. Oh my god.
00:41:05
El Platypo
I was saying that sincerely. Did you see what I mean?
00:41:08
red23
Yes. No, I agree. And Janie, I would you...
00:41:12
El Platypo
Although there is also an alternative that Chukote is sexy AF.
00:41:14
red23
Oh, there we go!
00:41:16
Jen
if
00:41:17
red23
There we go!
00:41:19
El Platypo
But I would immediately assume the serious point was the disappointment.
Emotional Impact and Villain Analysis
00:41:22
El Platypo
But, you know, it might be, you know, funny to be like Chakoti AF, you know, Chakoti SAF.
00:41:30
red23
Well, that's, yeah, Jenny, go ahead.
00:41:30
Jen
Yeah, I was gonna say I had the same thoughts as you guys that it's supposed to be like when someone's really disappointed in you and it's much worse when you feel like you've let someone down than when someone is angry and shouting at you, you feel more bad about what you've done.
00:41:44
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:41:48
Jen
But I think the way it was delivered was accidentally. I can sort of see how it's It sounds a bit um sexual in in the way she says it, something about the way she says it.
00:42:02
red23
Yes, I thank you.
00:42:03
Jen
I feel like my mind just sort of blanked that.
00:42:03
red23
Yeah.
00:42:06
Jen
It sort of took that as ah and as an accident of delivery, like but you know the intention was the first one.
00:42:07
red23
Yeah.
00:42:13
red23
That's interesting because I happened to watch this episode twice. I don't, I haven't normally, but just yesterday I was so tired or something that I just kind of want to watch it in case and I knew today I was going to be busy. but Um, and I listened to the Delta flies in between and they were like, Oh my gosh, she's got the hotspot.
00:42:24
El Platypo
Thank you.
00:42:29
red23
She's still got the hotspot. She's not ready to move on to Paris yet.
00:42:33
El Platypo
yeah
00:42:34
red23
But you know, they coming at it from that, like Tom Paris, sorry. But, um, but when I watched it again today, I stand by my interpretation, but yes, when she delivers online, there's something about it that she like turns her head and like that intonation does give it a bit of a, like, I can see now what, well, why that
00:42:37
Jen
Yeah.
00:42:49
El Platypo
but
00:42:54
red23
they could have gone in that direction.
00:42:54
El Platypo
I hope I don't have it.
00:42:54
Jen
yeah I can understand why they thought that. And to be fair, like maybe it wasn't an intentional sort of double double play because, you know, she does we do know that she kind of fancies Chiquote at various points and then she moves on to Tom Paris and maybe...
00:43:11
El Platypo
What?
00:43:12
Jen
You you did you already knew that, dear.
00:43:15
El Platypo
I haven't watched anything else, you've just ruined this for me.
00:43:17
red23
But you knew it, you knew it.
00:43:18
El Platypo
I had my money on cicote and bologna having beautiful belates and it being em amazing. I've never been so put out on this podcast before.
00:43:30
red23
Oh dear, sorry.
00:43:32
El Platypo
For that young Jenny, ah you may lead us into the next point, or indeed nominate someone else for a point of your choosing.
00:43:40
Jen
oh oh um oh yes you've caught me unprepared um i only have my own notes right in front of me um um okay i'm gonna go for one of mine but because they are right in front of me um and actually i'm getting towards the end actually um we have two more things
00:43:41
El Platypo
Yes, this is something new. It's all innovation here.
00:43:49
red23
Oh, you can just give one of your points. You don't have to start doing anything complicated or fancy.
00:43:53
El Platypo
If you don't, I will make rent do it.
00:44:08
Jen
okay this is uh right at the end right towards the end um and i just had to get a little bit of a doctor comment in there because you know how i love the doctor oh no so oh he just he just has a great comedic line again oh oh well then i haven't stolen your points so that's good um no i just really enjoyed the the delivery of jane wayes and set us up with the doctor i've forgotten you and his
00:44:17
El Platypo
Oh, you've stolen my point. I know what you're going to say. Oh, that wasn't my point. I'm so happy.
00:44:38
Jen
That's deadpan. How flattering.
00:44:42
El Platypo
Oh, you did, you did do the things.
00:44:42
red23
oh
00:44:44
El Platypo
I just want to say they forgot the doctor again.
00:44:47
Jen
Yeah, but then how would they have even, you know, evacuated him? I don't know. He doesn't have his mobile emitter.
00:44:53
El Platypo
thank
00:44:54
Jen
Yeah, it does easily.
00:44:54
red23
Oh gosh, everyone had been evacuated. I forgot about that. I hear they can download his program, apparently, I think.
00:45:03
Jen
Oh, well, it's a good thing they didn't really, isn't it? Because what would Banana have done?
00:45:06
red23
Yep. This is true.
00:45:09
El Platypo
Well, yeah, I mean he saves the day. If if he isn't there to, I know he said download her, but actually I mean beam her out. It would have been a very different plot arc from there on.
00:45:23
red23
Oh, yeah.
00:45:24
Jen
Yep.
00:45:26
El Platypo
no um Red, I'm going to nominate you to nominate a point from someone else of your choice.
00:45:32
red23
Great, I'm gonna nominate myself because that's a lot of viewpoints. So as I said, I watched this twice, it was only like 75 to 80% of the way through the second viewing.
00:45:35
El Platypo
You don't count as people!
00:45:43
red23
of an inside dreadnought that I recognized the style of the interior design as Cardassian. It had all those panels with the snake-like snakelike or like the front of the the panel that they have on the front of their chest.
00:45:56
red23
I was like, ah, it's Cardassian design. I can't believe it took me so long to realize this. Because at first I was like, oh, pretty colors. That's all I noticed.
00:46:04
Jen
Yeah, same.
00:46:04
red23
But very good set design, I would say.
00:46:08
El Platypo
i mean I respect you for noticing that.
00:46:08
Jen
Yeah, I kind of like the Kardashian style.
00:46:08
red23
oh
00:46:12
El Platypo
and ah I'm really impressed that you noticed that in the middle of all the drama. um But I think yeah Yeah, it's a fair point.
00:46:22
red23
I did actually have one.
00:46:22
El Platypo
And it's lovely and it's a cool touch that they've sort of made something species specific from clothing design to ship design, but like that.
00:46:27
red23
Yeah.
00:46:31
red23
A lot of thought goes into it.
00:46:32
El Platypo
That's mega. Yeah, I agree. um I actually think that I have exhausted the majority of my points.
00:46:42
El Platypo
So I suppose, I think, Jenny, have you exhausted yours?
00:46:47
Jen
No, I'm just shocked shocks that um you exhausted yours before me. I still have one.
00:46:51
El Platypo
No, no, no. Excellent. Hit us and hit us hard.
00:46:55
Jen
um It's really basic, I'm afraid. um But I was just reflecting on the fact that Dreadnought is actually like quite high on my list of favourite villains. um Obviously the Borg, no one beats the Borg.
00:47:07
red23
Oh.
00:47:08
Jen
But um I think it's brilliant because any villain that has this sort of um can't be you can't be swayed
00:47:16
El Platypo
Ah. thought.
00:47:17
Jen
There's nothing you can do.
00:47:18
red23
Yeah.
00:47:18
Jen
They have a very like logical plan in their mind. So you know that there's absolutely no possibility of getting away, unless you can outmaneuver them in some way. But if they've got like way more advanced technology than you, or access to you know more data, and then you know that there's no ah emotional plea you can make, um because that would just not be recognised.
00:47:44
Jen
I find those kind of villains like the most scary, which makes a really good feeling.
00:47:48
red23
yeah well sorry go ahead Jamie not yet not yet because i hate talking about ai um because i have to do all time work but i wanted to respond to jenny's point that because it made me think of a lot of things um but now i've got on the point because i'm getting sick um just remind me i can't jenny sorry
00:47:51
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:47:55
El Platypo
I feel I have to ask how you feel about the rise of generative AI, but I feel that might be a bit of a bleak one to respond with.
00:48:13
El Platypo
Oh no!
00:48:17
Jen
It was it was the the great villains, the villains that used logic.
00:48:20
red23
Oh yes, a great villain. Yes. So yes, there's something here about like, it's not firepower versus firepower. It's like firepower versus mental power. And maybe like, that's why you, I mean, that was what makes it more interesting and exciting and challenging.
00:48:30
Jen
o
00:48:33
red23
But also, did you recognize, did you not like your flashbacks to like arguments or not many that you've had in your personal life that reminded you of trying to rationalize this dread box? Like if someone is so fixed in their position, you just, they're like lost to you.
00:48:48
red23
You can't, you can't reach them.
00:48:50
El Platypo
Yeah, a local Tory party candidate.
00:48:51
Jen
ah
00:48:51
red23
I definitely, I mean, I'm not, I'm actually not referring to politics at all, but like when someone is just so set on their point of view and normally it's like a very, in my experience, it's been like, they just selfishly want to do something and nothing you can say will change their mind.
00:49:05
red23
um
00:49:06
El Platypo
i I totally get that. I have to deal with these two people who feel that someone um I was a little bit you know neutral towards is an absolute titan of spaceship leadership and it's unbearable.
00:49:20
red23
ah Okay, yes, I see what you said there, but it took me a long time to get to Jamie.
00:49:26
El Platypo
um Sorry.
00:49:28
red23
But yes, Third Note is a great villain, um but it reminded me of people in real life, I guess is what I wanted to say to Jamie's point.
00:49:33
Jen
Yeah, yeah i I can imagine the kind of people you're you're referring to. I think I probably haven't had much personal experience of it because they tend to avoid conflict. so ah But I can absolutely imagine the kind of characters you're referring to in real life.
00:49:46
Jen
bret
00:49:46
red23
No.
00:49:49
El Platypo
Interesting.
00:49:51
red23
I've got one more point if I may go Jamie.
00:49:54
El Platypo
Oh, I insist you have as many as you have left. Sorry. um talk us
00:49:58
red23
You just seem to have stopped moderating there and like gone off the camera.
00:49:58
El Platypo
so No, i was I was taking a moment to ruminate. Just because one's moderating doesn't mean one can't cogitate and process what has been said.
00:50:11
El Platypo
I was coming to my own emotional peace with it, thank you very much. You may choose to interpret it as indecision, but I, on the other hand, choose to interpret it as emotional maturity. Carry on.
00:50:22
red23
Thank you, Jamie.
00:50:24
El Platypo
Do you want some more time to process that? Because I'm more than willing to let you have it.
00:50:27
red23
No, that one I got more quickly than your previous one.
00:50:29
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:50:31
red23
um Well, obviously I have to give a little shout out to, I think someone are already alluded to this, to you, because Janeway forces everyone to evacuate. She's going to stay presumably to either rescue Bolana or steer the Voyager to the dreadlord or, I mean, maybe if you can correct me if I'm wrong, but um Paris is at the con and she's like orders him to leave.
00:50:55
red23
And then he does have this moment where he's like, thank you, which is kind of in contradiction to Paris earlier, but nevermind. But I was like, yes, I would be like Paris. I'd be like, thank you very much. I'm out of here because I'm not going to die.
00:51:06
El Platypo
Okay.
00:51:06
Jen
yeah
00:51:09
red23
But Tuvok uses his ah logic to say, I have to stay because if you're becoming capacitated, then I have to fulfill the mission. And she accepts that, even though, I mean, to be a fair Tom also like resisted, but he, she couldn't like, her sorry, like ah the com ah overcome much logic and it was just a nice role reminded me of the friendship.
00:51:17
Jen
yep
00:51:32
red23
I think he would have done that anyway, but I think it was also a bit of their friendship coming through.
00:51:37
Jen
Yeah it's a really interesting that whole scene where she eventually although Tom tries to say as you say she which eventually sends him off but she does accept Tuvok staying and I just think like wow what a lot of conflicting thoughts and emotions you must be feeling because obviously um they're her and Tuvok are really good friends probably better friends than her in Paris so she's basically condemning her closer friend to
00:52:00
red23
and
00:52:02
Jen
die with her and how difficult that must be. But, you know, I understand why she would say yes to Tuvot because, as you mentioned, the logic of his argument for him staying, but also, like, I guess the sort of seniority in the roles, like he's this sort of head of security and um it does make more sense for him to stay.
00:52:20
Jen
um But I just think, wow, what a but a lot of decision making to make in a short space of time under such pressure.
00:52:21
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:52:26
red23
Yeah. Yeah.
00:52:28
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:52:30
red23
Definitely.
00:52:31
El Platypo
Yeah. Fair enough. Have we come to the end of our individual things? Should we talk about themes already? Do you have a few more in that? that That's not meant like in a piss-taking way, like generally.
00:52:43
red23
I do just want to say one thing because I wasn't really quite sure where to put it in, but we had a nice consistent amount of jacote in this episode.
00:52:45
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:52:49
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:52:50
red23
I know he wasn't like a leading person, but I think re-watch this. Sometimes I realize we hardly ever see him and he was around a lot on this episode and I liked Cody so I like that.
00:53:02
El Platypo
I mean do I agree and do do you mind if I use that as a balance to one of the themes that I sort of picked up and then we can sort of go to themes because to me one of the things that jacuzzi's key intervention
00:53:08
red23
Go for it.
00:53:20
El Platypo
emphasises, and it's the one where we reference his soft soft voice but not actually what he says, is the differentiation between an act of war and an act of revenge that sort of seems to be one of the sources of his disappointment in Bolana's act to just reprogram something to go off and hurt some oppo.
00:53:42
El Platypo
um I mean, that was my take on it, but do you do you feel it was more to do with a betrayal of personal loyalty, or do do you concur with my read on it?
00:53:52
red23
I like your read on it. I don't like that I had thought of that. But um it ties into like, I guess, my theme, if I may jump in.
00:54:02
El Platypo
Yes, no, no, that's that's what I want you to do. I want everyone to jump from theme to theme, like a bunch of grasshoppers, or a squirrel evading a certain ginger cat lately.
00:54:06
red23
Well, yeah, yeah, but I don't want to... Okay.
00:54:11
red23
Oh, yes, let's not talk about that again. But, um, I... I'm not sure it's a theme, but I just could not help thinking or stop thinking about the fact that Balana hated the Cardassian so much that she was willing to unleash this thing into the world that she was not gonna be supervising.
00:54:23
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:54:28
red23
And, um...
00:54:29
Jen
a
00:54:31
red23
It's a... It's a, I guess, uncomfortable thought or a...
00:54:32
El Platypo
Yeah. Well, I do.
00:54:36
red23
Um, she didn't, she didn't like, I mean, obviously I've not been in a war, I would have, but like, you know, i mean like, but as you said, it was more revenge than an act of war and and war, as much as I hated, there are rules.
00:54:39
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:54:48
red23
This didn't seem to be playing by any rules, I guess.
00:54:52
Jen
It was in her wilder days.
00:54:52
red23
Um, and yes, I mean, it's not so much a, it's just like, wow, she's changed. And like, also just like, wow, she must have been carrying so much hatred. Like, I mean.
00:55:05
El Platypo
matt me
00:55:05
red23
That's my impression.
00:55:07
El Platypo
I agree, although you've reminded me unwittingly of a character from Archer called Cheryl who always, whenever she's being particularly insane and called on it, screeches at the person who's called her out for being insane. You're not my supervisor!
00:55:20
El Platypo
And the fact that you've said that Bolana put it out with a suit without a supervisor, rather makes me think of that in terms of it being a quite insane and insanely violent thing to do, albeit in a reverse sort of spirit.
00:55:21
red23
Well.
00:55:32
red23
well
00:55:35
red23
pretty hardcore.
00:55:37
El Platypo
Yeah, I'd agree.
00:55:38
Jen
on
00:55:39
El Platypo
Sorry. Jay, any themes from your good self?
00:55:43
Jen
ah Yeah, I just sort of listed a load of sort of one word theme thoughts came to mind, you know, guilt and duty responsibility, dangers of AI, the war games self-sacrifice my little and little group of themes, a lot of themes in there.
00:56:07
El Platypo
I'd agree with that. I can see them all pretty clearly. There's things in there. a
00:56:14
Jen
I guess the AI one is most sort of relevant to now just because everyone's going on a little about I know red you hate to talk about it but everyone's obviously going on about chat what's it what's it called dpt chat or whatever it is I don't know
00:56:22
red23
Well, yeah.
00:56:27
red23
that tvbc What was funny is listening to the Delta Flyers episode and they obviously, you know, I don't want to say latched on, but race, but obviously the topic of AI definitely came up.
00:56:37
red23
But that was 2020. There was no open AI. There was no generative AI. Like it's just crazy how much has changed, I guess in like those four years.
00:56:44
Jen
and Yeah.
00:56:47
red23
I was like, you guys don't know what's coming, baby.
00:56:48
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:56:51
El Platypo
Oh gosh.
00:56:52
Jen
We're in the future. You're in the past.
00:56:54
El Platypo
i mean I always thought that they could make more of that given exactly how terrifying a foe to pick up on Jenny's point about a wonderful villain was just from that one limited piece of AI. I often wonder why um some of the the computer systems in Star Trek and indeed Star Wars universes aren't allowed to become malevolent villains more often, but a plus opportunity for another time.
00:57:24
red23
Yeah. Is that? yeah because they would have to explain how that happens I mean they can they can just swipe swipe what like wave their hand over it but um okay I still have to watch Terminator okay my battery is running low let's
00:57:27
El Platypo
Sir?
00:57:35
El Platypo
They they have have managed to explain how a Cardassian missile has Bellana's voice in the Delta Quadrant. I think they're going to explain how AI turns malevolent and it's the plot of Terminator.
00:57:49
Jen
Yeah, me too.
00:57:51
El Platypo
let's Let's wrap it up.
00:57:51
Jen
oh
00:57:52
El Platypo
Stop there, people. Stop there. Stop there. Let's go.
00:57:55
red23
You guys already have them.
00:57:55
El Platypo
Let's go. Let's pump up the energy. Pump up the energy.
00:57:56
red23
Go for it.
00:57:57
El Platypo
Huh?
00:57:59
red23
I think you guys already have yours in the notes. I have to think.
00:58:02
El Platypo
Yeah, I mean, mine was...
00:58:03
red23
Or maybe it's just Jenny.
00:58:04
Jen
I have to not put one in the notes.
00:58:04
El Platypo
ah No, there's and that those both mine. um So I think on the baddie's side, the Dreadnought, as again, no one else in the sector has got that close to getting one over the team.
00:58:19
El Platypo
Massively outperformed Seska that episode. Poor show, Seska. Although I also think the Doctor for beaming Bolana out last minute with our last minute equaliser.
00:58:30
red23
Very good.
00:58:31
Jen
Well, if you choose dreadnought, you're basically choosing boon because, you know, she was acting pretty well.
00:58:35
El Platypo
am i that Am I though? Some might say she was building on an awful lot of Kardashian intellectual property, which wasn't hers to use.
00:58:47
red23
and Intellectual property.
00:58:47
El Platypo
I think the copyright lawyers might have something to say about that.
00:58:52
red23
I think we should have a game to see how often Jamie can insert the words and intellectual property into a podcast. Never mind HR. That was too easy. HR was too easy for you.
00:59:04
El Platypo
I would just like to clarify for our listeners that there was absolutely no onus on me to insert the words intellectual property anywhere, although I suspect that both our listeners and indeed my fellow podcasters would like me to insert it somewhere the sun doesn't shine. um This is probably the sort of comment that gets people turned off this podcast due to exactly how posh I am. Right, you guys hit me star players. Let's go. Let's go. Let's bring the energy. Let's bring the energy.
00:59:32
Jen
Well, I think I'm going to have to go with the obvious choice of Belonna, to be honest. honest um Well, I think I'm choosing, I'm going back to what I originally used to do um and choosing the actress um rather than the character, because I just really enjoyed her um computer voice versus the the the real character of Belonna in different ways.
00:59:45
red23
Okay.
00:59:45
El Platypo
ah
00:59:58
Jen
ah It's an impressive thing to do, to act, I think, with yourself like that.
01:00:02
red23
Yes.
01:00:03
Jen
And I just think she did that really well. like it It wasn't just the dreadnought voiceover, but also the Lana's character in it. And, you know, especially as she's, I'm just thinking of the moment when she's had life support cut off and she's she's, you know, ah heating up and she can't breathe because there wasn't much oxygen left and she's still sort of driving to
01:00:24
El Platypo
Mm.
01:00:26
Jen
ah to, you know, shot down the weapon. I just think that was all quite well acted. I felt like there was quite a lot of, um you know, if it was a different act actor she was acting with, I'd say there's chemistry between them, which is quite funny.
01:00:43
red23
Yeah.
01:00:43
Jen
Chemistry with yourself.
01:00:44
red23
Oh. Well, Jenny, you have reminded me of something. So I wanted to do a very random stop here because otherwise I'm just going to do the same one as you.
01:00:52
El Platypo
Mm.
01:00:53
red23
But Garrett Wang did say that, well, yes, they were saying kind of similar of things.
01:00:55
El Platypo
Neelix.
01:01:01
red23
Like it's very hard to act, you know, you're not reacting against someone else sort of. but And she would have just had the lines of the computer voice, for example, being fed to her by the script coordinator off screen.
01:01:13
red23
So I will nominate the script coordinator as my star player.
01:01:16
El Platypo
I thought you were going to nominate Drednall actress.
01:01:17
Jen
oh brilliant yeah it's a really good point because i was just imagining um i like her having actually the voice um but yes you wouldn't actually
01:01:20
red23
Or like just supporting Polana, not to take anything away from what Polana did, but she had to have someone reading those lines to respond to. so
01:01:37
red23
Well, he said that was likely. I mean, they didn't say that was definitely that she could have been, um, But in their opinion, it's likely the script coordinator is just paying them.
01:01:45
Jen
Yeah, no, I imagine it would be. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, really good point.
01:01:49
El Platypo
Yeah. I apologize for the fact I'm being feline-moderated as you say that. um But yeah, I agree. It must have been a really interesting and unusual job to do for this particular episode.
01:02:03
red23
It's a lot to carry. I would have been like, no, thanks. I want to be in the background.
01:02:07
El Platypo
Yeah.
01:02:08
red23
your Which is why I'm not an actor.
01:02:12
Jen
and I think I'd want to do it but then have no one see it.
01:02:12
El Platypo
were Yeah,
01:02:18
red23
Noticing a trend here, Jenny.
01:02:20
El Platypo
Evasion of responsibility and authority. And I think I like that.
01:02:24
red23
All the spotlight.
01:02:26
El Platypo
Right. Are we? Yeah, I think I think we might be there. I'm hugely grateful for the energy people.
01:02:33
red23
Yeah, it's Friday night, guys.
01:02:35
El Platypo
Are we going to bring the energy again for another rave?
01:02:36
red23
I'm so excited. Oh! um
01:02:40
red23
It's gonna be the slower ray slow The slow rave.
01:02:40
El Platypo
I don't know why it's slow rave. OK, bring the energy. Slow rave, slow rave. Bring the energy, slow rave, slow rave. Bring the energy, slow rave, slow rave. Bring the energy, slow rave, slow rave.
01:02:49
Jen
My slow rape isn't verbal.
01:02:49
red23
I- I had to re-upload these shingles.
01:02:54
El Platypo
Up, top up, top up, top up, up, up, down, no down, no down, go left go left, go left, go right, go right, go right.
01:02:57
red23
I'm very distracted by this on the kitty cats.
01:03:03
El Platypo
Yeah, yeah for our listeners' benefit, I was cradling a very aggressively affectionate tortoise shell for most of that song.
01:03:13
red23
Oh, I just have a tail. Okay, don't hang up, but I'm gonna press stop.
01:03:18
El Platypo
No worries.
01:03:18
red23
Bye!