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We watch "Jetrel" (S1 Ep.15)
35 Plays1 year ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Jetrel" in which the crew encounters a Haakonian scientist named Dr. Jetrel who was responsible for creating a devastating weapon used in a war with the Talaxians. Jetrel seeks to make amends but Neelix isn’t having it.
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Transcript
Opening & Milestone Celebration
00:00:01
Speaker
Good God, this parachute is a knapsack. Sorry, I've always wanted to do that. Thank you for saying something, because I went blank. It's always good to throw in a friend's line at the start of a Star Trek podcast. Ah, yes, very good. So for anyone listening, we're back for, to discuss season one, episode 15, Jitrell? Not sure. Jitrell. Jitrell. It also sounds like an amazing hip hop name. I'm just going to say that. Jitrell.
00:00:30
Speaker
Yes. I mean, tote, tote, please don't give it up. Could you spy Dr. Childe? I get it, yeah. Dr. Childe, yeah. I'm completely at odds with the actual atmosphere of the episode, I have to say, so forgive my slightly bumpish take on it. No problem. But I just, I think we take one minute to offer ourselves some self-congratulation, because this is the penultimate episode of season one. So we wrapped up. Wow!
00:00:56
Speaker
So we've actually achieved, read what we were saying about what is highly successful or the top 1% successful podcasts or something, ones that get past the first episode and the more say ones that make it a whole season. Yeah, we're like in the top 1%. Yeah, absolutely. We're the 1% and I'd also like to point out for those of our listeners who might have been wondering, those whoop sounds were actual humans making those sounds.
Listener Promises & Star Trek: Voyager Plot
00:01:21
Speaker
Yes, we don't have a sound
00:01:23
Speaker
Or? Is that what it's called? I mean no one would believe it given the quality of that whooping but I wanted to ask, did we have a number of people viewing this at which stage we sort of said that I would turn up to an episode dressed as Q and please for heaven's sake tell me I haven't, we haven't passed that. Well we did make that deal but I don't know what the number was and I don't think it was 100. We're now on 105 listens.
00:01:50
Speaker
No, shut the front door. Are you serious? No, we're going to have to go back. Oh man, that's amazing. First of all, you know, I'm going to have to have this whole episode in suspense because we'll never be able to sort of dig through, you know, what I'm laughing at going to call our archive to find out if that was our number. But that would be hysterical if we actually had done that.
00:02:14
Speaker
Yes, I'm not really listening. I'm sorry. You can pick a new number if you want.
00:02:22
Speaker
No, no, no, no, I hold by that. You guys, if that was the number, you have a Jamie turns up dressed as Judge Q, not Q, Judge Q, card that needs to be played at some future point to be discussed and arranged off camera. Presumably while I arrange my fugue to a non-extradition treaty nation.
00:02:48
Speaker
Hang on, hang on. I thought that, I mean, I don't remember how many listeners you had to get to, but I thought that you had to dress as Judge Q to the London Star Trek convention. Was that not? I mean, that just sounds like the sort of silly, stupid, suicidal, embarrassing thing that I would definitely have signed up for.
00:03:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, no, we're just dressing up for me and Jenny. What are you trying to say here about dressing up for you and Jenny? My goodness, Red. Okay, I'll have to add some stage to a Star Trek convention. Although can we just say comical? It's very important as well. You've got to get the makeup right as well. Very important.
00:03:30
Speaker
You know, he's got the eyeliner, he's got the lipstick. I remember Jamie coming as David Bowie to my joint 30th, oh my God, at the Vesta Ring Club. His makeup was amazing, so... Jamie... You saw that was me. I have, I mean, this is pretty par for the course with the Vesta party, but I have no recollection of that whatsoever. Well, I suspect, I think I
00:03:56
Speaker
Do it on you. I didn't know I would have done that. That makes sense. Okay, let's part that one. Jitrelle. Jamie, one minute summary.
00:04:10
Speaker
before I share some fun facts. Now this is a deep one. It's simultaneously an exploration of Neelix's dark and troubled past, a deconstruction of my previous characterization of Neelix as
00:04:27
Speaker
a comic character in a serious series who's only there to bring relief, comic relief, I should say, through his ineptitude and a deep exploration of the themes of wartime atrocity, the culpability and responsibility of scientists for what happens with their creations and the limits thereof, and the redeeming theme of moral forgiveness and atonement. Wow.
00:04:56
Speaker
Your best yet, Jamie. You're very well said. I know, I really wish I'd written that down and I could write that sort of stuff as opposed to ad-libbing it, but there we go. You can always go back and listen and transcribe. Yeah, I think we all get it when we dive in. This is a really, I think, well, for me and Jamie, I'm guessing, sorry, speaking of, this is kind of stuff we love in Star Trek.
Critique & Analysis of 'Jitrel'
00:05:20
Speaker
But I was doing a little bit of, well, a couple of things.
00:05:24
Speaker
Because we're trying this in a more streamlined format, I was trying to find a good way to get kind of an outline or summary of the episode.
00:05:32
Speaker
Um, and so, you know, I was complaining earlier about chat GPT, um, cause I thought, let me try to use that. Don't say the name. Sorry, Cara. And I thought I'd just quickly read a couple of things that kind of, I was like, wait, that's not quite right. So, cause it gave me this brilliant, like three act structure, act one introduction conflict. So I was like, great, this is gonna like make our lives so much easier.
00:05:55
Speaker
The episode begins with the crew of the USS Voyager encountering a massive subspace displacement wave that threatens their ship. As they investigate, they encounter a wounded and dying Hiconian named Dr. Jitrell. I was like,
00:06:10
Speaker
I don't remember a displacement wave. I don't remember when you were dying, Dr. Jitrell. So I was like, wait, I was going to use this for a while because I hadn't watched the episode yet, but I was like, that does itself a bit. And I go right back to the top, which I just completely kind of skimmed over and read, Jitrell is the third episode of the first season of Star Trek. And at that point I was like, I cannot use the summary because it's definitely not the third episode and I cannot trust anything further.
00:06:40
Speaker
awful. And they say it's really good and really exact. Well, I think, yeah, I think it's really good at covering its tracks and hiding its intelligence. It's like a Boris Johnsonian sort of Skynet. Yes, it's good at sounding good. But if you know the details, you'll pick up the incorrections. Incorrections, the inaccuracies.
00:07:01
Speaker
Then I turned to another site for some more help. And I found this interesting review site. But we don't have to go into that, but it's llamasreviews.com for anyone interested. But I had to log because there were a couple of comments that I thought maybe Jamie had written back in 2008. If he had known about this website and I watched it. In 2008. In 2008. Neelix is an incredibly annoying character.
00:07:31
Speaker
Neelix is so annoying. But you can't comment that about Neelix in this episode. No, I know. Well, exactly. These people are even more idiots than I thought you were for not liking Neelix. It's all coming out this particular episode, my goodness. Take away the structure, you know, and the chaos behind the veneer of civilization of this podcast comes out.
00:07:58
Speaker
Well, I just read those and I was a surprise, but I did laugh because I thought, okay, you do have some compatriots, I guess, in your opinion. I mean, I no longer feel that way about Neelix having understood the trauma he lived through based on this particular episode. Yeah, so I think maybe it's like different from previous episodes. We're going to just dive into your first reactions and... Yeah, Jenny, do you want to start us off?
00:08:27
Speaker
Well, it was quite a serious one, wasn't it? It was, um, I kind of, I gotta say I did miss, I do love all the sort of, you know, sci-fi elements to it. Um, but, uh, I did miss some of the comedic elements. It was quite, it was quite heavy going and it was, it was a prime, you know, opportunity for Neelix to, you know, show his, his acting skills. Um, but I kind of missed like a lot of the other characters a bit as well. Like there wasn't much of the Lana and.
00:08:57
Speaker
sounding like Robert Duncan McNeil there. Well, I do like the Lana. I mean, that's an ensemble cast. So yeah. Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, it was it was sort of a bit sort of the New Link show. You know, that's fair. Like everyone gets their turn, don't they? Yeah, I am. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's based on sort of things that have happened in real world, you know,
00:09:24
Speaker
nuclear disasters and atomic bombs and whatnot and all the sort of moral implications around then. So I really enjoyed like that kind of exploration of, you know, what is science and why and I don't know, I guess the difficulties of being a scientist in that kind of field, like even today, like people who've worked in defence and developing weapons and things. So it's an interesting philosophical exploration, but I did miss the comedy.
00:09:50
Speaker
No, and I'd agree with you. Sorry, you go, you go. No, I just wanted to say that it's like, yes, I didn't write down many funny lines, which is what I normally spend all of my time doing.
Scientific Responsibility in Star Trek
00:10:01
Speaker
And you reminded me when I was trying to find those summaries. The fun fact, which I forgot to share, and you've already alluded to this, is that Jitrel is actually based on Oppenheimer.
00:10:13
Speaker
So I just thought, I would just mention that because we just had the film Apennima, which I have not seen and probably will never see because it's a film, not a TV show, but I just thought that was interesting timing. Yeah, I didn't realise that. I assumed he was based on many things throughout history, but yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
00:10:33
Speaker
And to sort of continue that theme of Oppenheimerish and responsibility for destruction and actually something that I think
00:10:44
Speaker
separate Star Trek as a more serious explorer of not just far off galaxies but also moral themes and questions than many other sort of comparable science fiction series is for those who haven't watched this the episode actually centres around an enormous sort of event not dissimilar to the destruction of Alderaan in Star Wars where an entire planet is laid waste
00:11:09
Speaker
And rather than becoming this sort of revenge, tragedy saga, which perhaps an unkind person might typify, Stalin was at, it actually sort of explores the themes of culpability there, and also the responsibility of, well, is it the responsibility of the Oppenheimer type figure who created that weapon?
00:11:33
Speaker
answer initially seems like a hard yes, then turns slightly to a hard no, although that character, it has to be said, actually doesn't defend their responsibility or their lack of control with what's done with their work as strongly as perhaps could be the case, perhaps as an outcome of the guilt that they feel. But it's a formal serious exploration of that than I think you typically find on a science fiction programme, because it's actually like saying,
00:12:02
Speaker
Well yeah, this character has destroyed effectively a planet population 300,000 or then it turns out to actually it was the thing that they designed and built, though they didn't actually necessarily have control over how it was deployed, then it was actually this individual never wanted that to happen.
00:12:23
Speaker
and is back without giving himself an ounce of slack trying to find a way to effectively resurrect all the people who they killed. And I have been interrupted by Han in the air because I was waffling. So let's not kill the few viewers, viewers, listeners who made that. Jenny, heavy. I think you'll be thrilled that I'm interrupting you because I'm basically interrupting you to agree that in the, like, I love that Star Trek, basically, in any other kind of really formulaic kind of
00:12:51
Speaker
sci-fi movie or film your leg but they always center it on this like you know and you know there's a Darth Vader or there's some really evil
00:13:06
Speaker
being, you know, and it's like, it's not really true to life, is it? I mean, there's rarely like one evil, you know, completely inhuman thing that the heroes have to fight against and kill, like the reality is that, you know, a lot of evil that happens in the real world is a result of all these like complicated interactions, and the people behind them aren't necessarily all pure evil. So it was kind of like, interesting to explore, like, Jattrell would have been the anti hero in
00:13:35
Speaker
a more sort of formulaic, you know, program, I think, but you know, you're looking you can some of his arguments like they do make sense in a weird way, you know, his passion for science and how important he feels it is scientific endeavor and sharing knowledge with the rest of the world. You know, so I just enjoyed that it felt a bit more like of an adult sort of exploration of these terrible things that happen rather than just let's blame this one awful human
00:14:03
Speaker
Awful. I was going to say human being, but he's not a human being. Yes, Jamie. A question to pose as to folk who both work in different areas of STEM and were educated in different areas of STEM relevant subjects, as opposed to me, who was, you know, very much an art student. How do you feel about Jitrel's morality agnostic view that regardless of how
00:14:33
Speaker
his piece of technology or work is developed. He has a due sheet of research and continue the science of it, regardless of potential impact of said research. Where do you stand on that? Jenny, go ahead. So we need to go first, right? Well, I mean, I've never done research in any way via that. I mean, I did biochemistry, but then I went into sports science.
00:15:01
Speaker
I can understand his like the thing I guess that I related to a bit was wanting to do something for the sake of figuring out how to do it. I can imagine that.
00:15:13
Speaker
But me, myself, I cannot tolerate, I'm not really drawn to jobs, whatever, that have high risk for other people if I get it wrong. So that's just my personal, I can only share my personal. But he actually got it right, not wrong. That's the thing. No, he got it right. But for me, that would be way too much responsibility to take on my own shoulders. Just for me personally. I think it's, yeah.
00:15:40
Speaker
Because yeah, I agree to some extent with his sort of philosophy of scientific endeavor, but I mean,
00:15:48
Speaker
In this case, I think, well, from what I understand, he was working on something that he knew would be used as a weapon. And I think that is not something that I personally could work in in that field. But the thing is, there are a lot of examples where, you know, scientists have been working in fields that then that technology was taken and used as a weapon, but they would not necessarily have known that that's what it was for.
00:16:11
Speaker
Possibly even reverse. I mean technology from weapons research that filters into consumer tech or products and things like that. It's a known fact that after many wars, especially for instance the First World War and the Second World War, medical science took leaps and bounds forwards because of the new treatment methods, the new ways of treating all of the
00:16:32
Speaker
other horsemen of the apocalypse that ride along in war's horrific wake. I sort of, sorry go for it. Well I'm just going to add that even in healthcare like you can be working on something that we might be thinking will help cure people and help treat people but even that can be taken and used in biological warfare.
Mature Themes in Sci-Fi
00:16:56
Speaker
Yeah and also just I mean it's very interesting to hear what you guys are saying about others. I mean
00:17:03
Speaker
other sci-fi
00:17:06
Speaker
shows or movies or films. I'm not that familiar, I mean I rarely only just watch Star Trek, that's my exposure to sci-fi. But maybe that's why I like it because I don't, there's all like these revenge schemes or just trying to get back at someone for something that just doesn't interest me at all. Like the more... There's a maturity to the character's actions as opposed to simple revenge. It's always actually about some sort of societal unit being moved and progressed away or out of a situation and
00:17:36
Speaker
folk actually act in quite a mature and professional manner. It's interesting though because oddly the first sort of sci-fi parallel that I was reminded of wasn't something involving the destruction of a planet. It was actually one of Terry Pratchett's very last novels and novels covering one of the darkest of subjects and an atrocity and a genocide. The book called Snuff effectively about
00:18:05
Speaker
when Sam Veems goes away on a holiday to a place where actually goblins have been brutalized and enslaved and slain en masse and dealing with that sort of history and I think there was a very very sort of Terry Pratchett of All Folk for All, he was a comedic writer
00:18:26
Speaker
also one who made incredibly serious points about things through comedy and there was a parallel in terms of the seriousness with which they throughout this episode both treated the subject so I mean obviously for individuals who haven't watched this episode it centres around the plight of Neelix when confronted with a doctor
00:18:49
Speaker
who designed a weapon which destroyed his world but has come claiming he's there to save Neelix's life because Neelix possibly contracted something in that particular incident when he went back as a rescuer and then their path afterwards as they attempt to go back to the place of that atrocity and effectively the doctors occluded motives and their morality or otherwise
00:19:19
Speaker
But yeah, summary, why don't you put that in the one minute summary? Oh, because I wanted to get a full event to my pretensions in the one minute summary. So this is the Star Trek podcast, so we will continue. But I'm sure people who know Terry Pratchett about Terry Pratchett, that sounds like something I should read. But yes, sometimes easier to interpret things through like a thermal lens that's completely unrelated to your own experience. And then you can see it much more clearer than if you're personally involved.
00:19:49
Speaker
So should we, are there any final thoughts before we kind of just jump into a closer look at the episode? I would like to voice a thought that actually start to see Kez become a bit more of a pivotal character in this one.
00:20:04
Speaker
And the fact how strengthening sort of her affection for Neelix is to him and how much he gets from how often she reframes him in some of those moments where, you know, he's feeling that self contempt about was I actually consciously objecting or was I just running because I was a coward and how she reframes his actions to him when he's suffering moments of
00:20:33
Speaker
uncertainty and getting that sort of Star Trek nerd hat on. I really like how she starts to show a new indifference with her strength. I agree. I think I'm not to give too much away, but that's a
00:20:48
Speaker
foreshadowing to my star player. But should we dive? I think we'll cover that in a bit more detail. So I discovered a new word when I was researching this episode, which is teaser, which I think is the section before the intro. So I think we're ready to dive in. You can just go through the teaser and the kind of five main acts just drawing up the key scenes, because I think there are a couple of very strong scenes that I'm anticipating Bill want to discuss in a bit more detail.
00:21:17
Speaker
Um, so in the teaser, we have Neelix and Tuvok playing pool and Shay San dream. I'm sorry, please excuse my pronunciation. And Neelix learns about the safety shot, which is a bit of, I guess, some foreshadowing. Um, do you want to tell us what the, uh, safety shot is?
00:21:33
Speaker
Jamie, because your hand is shot. No, I want to ask, was Chais Sondrin that French cyber brothel that one of them sort of dreamt up that Captain Jane gave lice? So it was a French cyber brothel, okay. How do we feel about the fact that Voyager has a brothel in its cyber?
00:21:50
Speaker
Well, did you guys notice before, I can't remember this is the first time this guy's appeared in the brothel, but the guy, one of the holographic characters, the guy with the like jazz hat, I think he's like Mr. Heckles and friends. Yes, he is. Okay, sorry, I'm repeating myself. No, no, but well done for recognizing him because I mean, you know, maybe I'm losing my mind. But yes, I think I remember that was like a fun fact, perhaps from the first time we saw him.
00:22:20
Speaker
But yes, I forget every time I see him and then I have to be reminded. I'll Google it. So I don't know if we want to discuss the safety shot in more detail, but basically Neelix is kind of about to lose to 2vox, so he just sends his balls somewhere where 2vox can't reach. 2vox is like, ah, if I just do this XYZ, I'm sure I can make the shot. And then he like sinks his balls straight into the pocket. It is not the display of athletic coordination you expect from a Vulcan.
00:22:49
Speaker
No, I was surprised, but I thought it funny. And then Neelix is summoned to the bridge because there's someone approaching a shuttle approaching and he wants to speak to them.
Neelix's Emotional Journey
00:22:59
Speaker
And Neelix reports the bridge, and I didn't notice his outfit in the cyber brothel, but I thought he was wearing quite a jazzy outfit as he... No one notices an outfit in a cyber brothel red. No one knows. And he jumps and he walks onto the bridge. Are we still going sort of from the teaser, by the way, or are you now sort of... Oh, cool, let's go. And so we have this moment where he, I guess,
00:23:24
Speaker
recognises the shuttle, it's Harkonian, and he shares some history with the crew on the bridge. Do you want to cover that, Jamie? Well, he effectively shares the fact that his world was conquered by the Harkonians, and without giving too much else away, looks quite disturbed.
00:23:49
Speaker
a situation which is only enhanced when effectively the officer in command of the Harkonian vessel asks for Neelix and describes himself as I am Jitral, at which stage Neelix rushes out extremely, extremely obsessed and nearly in tears.
00:24:07
Speaker
Yes, and that is the end of the teaser. And so to keep up the pace, we're going to move straight on to the actual... Sorry, again. We have a lot of humans doing those sound effects. He's very upset. So in Act 1, it starts with Nelix kind of sharing more information with Janeway, I think, in his quarters. But he is emotional. I mean, I don't know who wants to say it, but that line, like, he's a mass murderer. I think that's how the scene starts. It's a good strong entrance line to this as a sort of piece of context for why he might be upset.
00:24:37
Speaker
Yeah, it's more with Jamie about like, exactly, I guess, Dr. DeTrell's role in the murder of all his hit one, the destructional's. Yeah.
00:24:48
Speaker
So we find out that at this point, I think we're just finding out that Neelix sees him as the, so he's like the famous scientist who came up with this Betrion cascade, which is basically the human equivalent of like the atomic bomb or nuclear device. And he was the scientist behind it. And then that was used on the moon Rhinax, part of the Talaxian, I guess, territory, which is where Neelix's whole family lived.
00:25:14
Speaker
And he lost his whole family due to this weapon that he's now meeting face to face actually created. So understandably distressing, I guess. Very. And I think the only thing to add there is that he kind of reveals that the only reason he survived is because he was on
00:25:33
Speaker
Tlaxia training with the Tlaxian Defense Forces. Yeah, and they were like an invasion, but they were anticipating, but then Tlaxia surrendered after this mass weapon of mass destruction, I guess. May I name the weapon? Yes, I don't know. The Metrionic Cascade. That's what Jenny said. Let's just show up, Jamie. Yeah, I was like, I mean, it sounds, you know,
00:25:59
Speaker
possibly like something rather beautiful. It sounds like a beautiful golden waterfall or something in effect. Two other things that should be mentioned is one Neelix's tidbit of information that this place had a population of 300,000, but two that it was also an absolute paradise initially with a very temperate climate. So Jamie, is that essential because
00:26:27
Speaker
Yes. Is that essential? Because we try to go much quicker. I think it adds emotional depth. I scratched that for my notes. In the next scene, we see Jitrel has just beamed aboard and he's very excited about transporter technology, maybe too excited. And he's speaking to Janeway and Tuvok. And Janeway is speaking on New Mexico's behalf because he refuses to meet with Jitrel. And Jitrel is just like, I need him to undergo a medical examination.
00:26:56
Speaker
because I think he might have this deadly disease, metremia, which I think he may have contacted while he was on a rescue mission on Rhinax. And, you know, since that rescue, they have discovered incidences of these rescues developing this disease. And, well, I didn't take many notes about the science, but basically your cells undergo vision and disintegrate. So it sounds very serious. I guess it's like the equivalent of radiation poisoning. Yes.
00:27:25
Speaker
Yeah, if you go back to where there's been a bomb, I'll go off. But he kind of does seem sincere. I did write down one line that he said, like, each talaxian I scan or screen brings me one step closer to a cure. So he's really trying to end this chain with his help to convince Neelix to undergo this medical examination. Next week we're in the mess hall and Neelix is preparing dinner and talking with the kids. And this is, I think, a sweet scene.
00:27:52
Speaker
Um, we find out Nina's never really shared about his war experience with, with kiss. Um, and just, you know, he wasn't comfortable sharing something with her. But while she wasn't there to see herself, and maybe this is a one experience that can't be shared, which, you know, for them seems pretty unusual because they seem like very close and open and all that. Yeah. He says, I find one of his line, there's a line he uses there, which I just find really interesting. I'm not really sure why I just, it's something along the lines of, um,
00:28:21
Speaker
I can't share what I felt with someone who wasn't there experiencing it. And I don't know why it just stuck with me, that line. I guess I imagine that's how a lot of people who go through some kind of trauma must feel about it, you know, like they can't talk about it. They can only really feel comfortable with someone else who experienced the same thing with them. I don't know, it has just sort of made my tones of
00:28:52
Speaker
PTSD. Yeah, I guess in a way having to explain it is kind of traumatizing, you know, and you know that that person will never really quite be able to understand. So it's like, well, it's just easy not to say anything. It positions Neelix in a place of great emotional vulnerability, given what we found out in the previous scene when the Dr. Jitrell spoke to the captain on Neelix's behalf and revealed the fact he worried that Neelix might very well have a disease from that place.
00:29:22
Speaker
in the scene that we're talking about in the kitchen, the skipper shares that news. And Neelik's response with the immortal line, he's touched by the doctor's concern, but he would rather be immersed in a pit of trilinian eels, which one imagines isn't similar to one of those sort of things you put your fish in to get them exfoliated.
00:29:44
Speaker
then be touched by the doctor. The skipper, her redoubtable self, deals with this by saying she won't in any way force Neelix to do anything he doesn't want to, but eventually sort of morally forces him to go and get the doctor to look at him for his own peace of mind. Well, yes, I think, I think Kez is very, really logical here, because I'm just, again, somewhat foreshadowing, but
00:30:08
Speaker
He's like, what is the point of me being screened or scammed because it's, you know, fatal. So if I have it, it's not going to make a difference. And she's like, but, and she's a big fan of the doctor. That's not the good. So she's like, but we have like the best doctor, the entire planetary universe on board. So, you know, he could probably do something. So he kind of can't really argue against that. And he kind of agrees to at least here to trail out. I'm not sure. Um, and he,
00:30:34
Speaker
The scene is quite funny because Janeway and Cares are pressing in on him. And he's like, outflanked and outnumbered. He kind of relinquishes or surrenders to their kind of convincing. Yes, Jamie? Point of order. Is the Doctor the best Doctor in the galaxy?
00:30:55
Speaker
In case of mine, yes. Would Dr. Julian Bashir want to argue that particular point? Dr. Julian Bashir, I'm sorry, rags no way from here. I have to agree. I got read to crack. I finally got read to crack. I threw something provocative in, and she went for it. No regrets. Sorry. So let's crack on before we- He's too busy chasing tail. I would put Beverly Crusher above Julian Bashir. Yes, I would. Could we just focus on, what does that phrase you just used, chasing tail, mean?
00:31:25
Speaker
I'm not gonna explain it if you don't. So yes, sorry, Neelix has been pressed into at least hearing the doctor out, which I think takes us into one of the first kind of major scenes between Neelix and Jitrell. So it's in in the briefing room, just with Janeway. And Jitrell starts kind of talking about isotopes. And I don't know what he needs to do and kind of
00:31:51
Speaker
pick up this, but Niex is already on the attack. Why are you doing this? He's very suspicious. Is this all just out of science? Is he curious or because he feels guilty? Well, take us away, Jamie, because I think you'll be able to... No, no, no, no. I'm just the comic relief to your sort of serious drive on this one. But you're right. It turns into a very, very sort of
00:32:18
Speaker
Jacques's scene in which Jitrell tries to fend off Neelix's, would we call it nuclear-grade? And I appreciate the fallacy of doing this on a show covering the issues that this one did. Nuclear-grade passive aggression, or would we describe it as something else?
00:32:41
Speaker
Yeah, into aggressive aggressives. He asks the doctor, do you sleep at night? And he goes, I slept every bit as well last night as I have every night for the last 15 years. Unspoken subtext to that since the Metrion cascade. Yeah, in a place known as Rhinax. Exactly. So it's like, does he sleep well? Or does he sleep badly? Um,
00:33:04
Speaker
I think it's at this point where he's a kind of just his defense to Charles defense is that while he simply developed it, it was the government and the military that, you know, decided to use it. And we kind of also learned that he didn't anticipate the radiation poisoning. He says that's unfortunate. And unfortunate was an unfortunate choice of words, I think. Yes, yes, yes. From your perspective, but yeah.
00:33:30
Speaker
I think that may have been what triggered Neelix's declaration that he'd rather die than ease Jitrel's conscience, which is foreshadowing with an added extra dash of irony, I feel. Yeah, yes, exactly that line. Sorry, this is more just, again, more like a climate blame chat GPT, but I copied and pasted the line from like,
00:33:54
Speaker
you know, quotes from the episode from like this website. And even that was wrong. So they had it written down as, I would rather die than help you with your experiments. And when I was watching, I was like, that's not right. So. Nearly as good. Yeah. So many errors on the internet, guys. Just watch us. OK. Yes. And he's like, find yourself another laboratory rodent, I think. But eventually Jitrel is persuaded in classic Neelic fashion, I think.
00:34:24
Speaker
Vice versa, no? Sorry, yeah. Neelix is persuaded. Because he can help others, I think, by getting a scan. January gives him a compelling moral equation of is it more important to punish him than help others? At which stage we find out that Neelix really is. Was that Jatrone's line? I think that was Jatrone, yeah.
00:34:51
Speaker
That must have really stung, as I thought that was the line that sort of moved Neelix, ultimately. It was. It was, I think. Oh, chills. So, yeah, he undergoes the scan while making digs at Jitrill, because he can't help himself. I don't know if we want to talk about that, but I think there was a funny... There was a little comic relief, because at the end of telling a story about how he set a trap, caught the animal, then felt sorry for the animal, then let it go, whatever.
00:35:21
Speaker
And Charles is like, are you finished? And Neelix is like, for now. I love that. Yeah. So moving into act two, we have this kind of, again, another touching scene with Kes and Neelix. And we learn a bit more about, I guess, you know, Neelix is trying to protect her from his feelings and reality, the fact that he might die.
00:35:49
Speaker
She's like, I don't want to be protected. I want to face this with you. And then we kind of reminded about the fact that she only lives for like nine years because now she's actually relieved that he'll die before. I mean, not that it's funny, but it's just like, I kind of, you know, it's a reminder of the kind of relationship and the dynamics and constraints there. I don't know if you have anything to add.
00:36:14
Speaker
Um, no. And so, um, the next thing we're in the ready room and Jitral arrives to talk to Janeway and he proposes, here's some techno bubble, using the transporter to retrieve a sample from the metreon clouds running your own acts to potentially develop antibodies for metremia. And basically Janeway agrees to this rather big detour, I think, because when she says she is just in command, she's like, that's a significant.
00:36:40
Speaker
A detour captain. But the suspicion on Janeway's part isn't there? Because initially when Jitrell... Yes, I think I skipped over that bit to keep things short. I think that's important to inject the fact that they're not just taking Jitrell at face value. Yeah, we know what happens. Maybe I'm thinking something else. Sorry, 30 seconds. Oh, whose dog is that? Janine, do you have a dog? Oh, but the neighbours do.
00:37:09
Speaker
Oh, he's very, very friendly, though. So the barking is quickly turns to, you know, like happy wagging tail. Cute. When you go and see. He's also got three legs. Oh, bless him. Yeah. Um, is Jamie coming back?
00:37:31
Speaker
Where were we? I'm sorry, Jamie was taking us back to some detail. So you're gonna have to speak to your husband. Yeah, yeah, control your husband woman. Because then I'm thinking, oh, and then there was this bit. And then I think, oh, but what's that?
00:37:50
Speaker
Am I going forward too far or am I going back now? I'm disappointed you brought you ladies haven't wrapped this episode up in the time I was out dealing with the three-legged Labrador. Well, maybe going forwards, I mean, I don't know if you want to do this, but I can always send the synopsis and you can add your notes to the, you know, add fresh out the details to the section where it's relevant and you know when to say it.
00:38:12
Speaker
Interesting. Maybe we should ask our viewers for thoughts as well. Get interactive with them for the first time. I mean, if they have any opinions they want to share, then Natalie at superstreak.co.uk. Rian from Waybridge, likewise. Mine is an actual real email address, so go for it.
00:38:30
Speaker
What are you saying about mine? Mine's real. Maybe you need my head. Rean. Rean. Anyway, shall we crack on? I heard that someone was keen to keep this brief because, you know, brovish is the soul of wit. Yeah, I want to see if we can get this done under 45 minutes, but I'm kidding. Yeah, we can do it. Go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go,
00:38:59
Speaker
And Janeway kind of makes a little, some light humor here going, all that sparring with Mr. Neelix does take its toll. So I thought that was a nice line. And we'd all agree with it. Yes, Jamie, definitely. So we're back in Sickbay where Neelix is getting another scan because he's agreed to his regular scans to help with treatment if they're able to develop it. And also in the scene, Jettrell observes the doctor kind of deactivate himself, which is important later on. But I think again, this is another key
00:39:27
Speaker
scene between these two actors, these two characters, because it starts off Neelix pushing Ditrell on the fact that he, you know, why a civilian target? Why not a military target or a demonstration on an unhabited planet? That's what Neelix would have done. I'm waiting for you guys to jump in. I mean, yeah, he doesn't really have a satisfactory answer to that, does he? Because, you know, I have some nonsense answer about wanting to
00:39:53
Speaker
know, make an impact. And, you know, the, the military strategist didn't feel that military target would have a big enough. I don't know. Well, can I just ask a really random question? When, when, I can't imagine when something like
00:40:10
Speaker
The atomic bomb was used that the scientist was asked for where do you think we should deploy this weapon of war? It would have been a decision taken by a general surely and I feel like that that's what happens in this instance But he doesn't really hide behind that as much as he could have in my view. Well, I think Yeah, I think there's some naivety on the part of Neelik's
00:40:32
Speaker
character, which is that like the scientist could have done something to change the outcome, which I think is naive on his part, personally, maybe I'm wrong, but it's like, because you developed it doesn't mean you have a say in how it's deployed. He's like saying because he was brilliant scientist, they would have listened to you, I guess. And Charles, like, well, if it hadn't been me, it would have been someone else. And he was like,
00:40:55
Speaker
It was inevitable, which does tie into a philosophy I have, which really irritates people. If something happened, it must have been inevitable, because if it wasn't inevitable, it wouldn't have happened. Yeah, there's a lot of faulty assumptions in there. It must have been inevitable. I mean, what is the faulty assumption? If it happens, it must have been inevitable.
00:41:24
Speaker
I mean, you get into then from that point onwards, literally every single thing since the Big Bang was inevitable.
00:41:35
Speaker
And it's not a similar argument to that which is used effectively by some wings of evangelical Christianity about predestination, but it also removes absolutely the spectre-slash-illusion of free choice, which is why I tend to reject it, although in some philosophical creeds the illusion of choice is the same thing.
00:42:00
Speaker
Well, I just think logically you can't defeat this theory because it doesn't happen. Oh, I will find you stuff that absolutely tears the underlying assumptions legs out of this one. But you would find that to be inevitable, wouldn't you? Yes, I'm not saying it's predestined. I'm just saying it's... What's the difference between inevitability and predestination? Well, I've never stopped to consider that. I'd just like to throw this theory out there to annoy my friends, and it always works. I am annoyed.
00:42:30
Speaker
I knew someone would be. But back to the scene, I think Neelix brings up the matter of consequences and then Stroll shares that there were some consequences for him because his wife rejected him and took his three kids away and kind of looked at him like a monster, I guess. Could we just clarify, not rejected, but left. Rejected sounds like, I don't know, it sounds like a different... Must be rejected and left with the three kids.
00:43:00
Speaker
Okay. Well, maybe that's not the right way, but that's how I interpret it. Um, Nelix is obviously like, this is not on the same level as what I experienced. Um, and he does describe the kind of horrors of going back, um, and, um, trying to find survivors or help survivors. Sorry for the listeners.
00:43:22
Speaker
Jamie just posted in the chat, my last interjection was inevitable. Yeah, you can't use this against me because I agree. You have no idea how annoying I can make this. But anyway, I could think that description of like returning and like encountering these people that have been like disfigured by the matron cascade and him being frightened by someone. And then actually it's just a young girl. It's kind of very touching and sad.
00:43:51
Speaker
Yeah, that's a horrible description. They said the skin was all like ash and then he took her back to a medical facility and watched her like slowly die over several weeks. Yeah, that's quite horrific. I feel like that's definitely because there's like been descriptions of people with radiation poisoning and things haven't there. And I feel like they probably drew heavily on that. It's horrifying. Yeah, I'm not something that anyone should have to see.
00:44:21
Speaker
and not on the same level as your wife leaving you. So I think he says something like, those are consequences. And he also kind of pushes Jettrell again, like, do you ever think your wife is right? And I think Jettrell kind of admits that yes, there was this moment when he saw the first detonation or the most successful detonation where he realized he was a monster. But I guess he's emotional. Yeah, it's emotional in the scene. And
00:44:50
Speaker
But I do like his line also after this one. And then he sort of makes him cry. And then he says, but, you know, the reason I haven't tried to apologize to you is that I can't. How can I ever apologize for something like that? And I mean, it's a good point. Yeah. Just how how could you even begin to try?
Confrontation & Guilt
00:45:13
Speaker
Thank you, Jenny, because I completely skipped the line. I think that is the main
00:45:20
Speaker
point of the scene is that he's like, he is emotional. He does feel guilty, but like, he knows he can't even apologize for the funny stuff. Act three starts with this creepy nightmare that Neelix is having, where we see... Nightmare pools. Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah, Nightmare pools. Yeah
00:45:49
Speaker
but I was a sensitive kid. And the final scene is like, Niek's yelling at someone being like, you did this, you did this, and turning that person around, and he's kind of screaming at himself. And he kind of wakes up in a sweat as he's being messaged from Captain Janeway. I don't know what to say. But anything you want to say about the dream? A lot of Jones hands.
00:46:14
Speaker
A lot of jazz hands. There's the lights, you know. Go on, Dick. Well, I know. I just like the way that something was so familiar, the French cyber brothel, chaison dreans, is turned into something nightmarish. I love how you're calling it a cyber brothel. It's going to catch on. I mean, I've caught it already. Yeah. No, no, no, no.
00:46:42
Speaker
It's clear that the underlying sort of thing there is survivor's guilt and self-accusatory nature. But yeah, go for it. He's awoken by the captain saying that they're approaching Rhinax and onward to conclusion. Yeah, feel free to take it away if you want. Good heavens no. Are we at the point where basically Neelix, or have we gone past this point? Okay, where he confesses stuff.
00:47:15
Speaker
So Voyager is approaching Rhinox. He goes onto the bridge looking, I think, a lot less dapper than he did in that opening teaser. You know, he looks a bit worse for me. And they are approaching Rhinox and it's, I mean, yeah, it's like the remains of the destroyed homeworld. So instead of, I guess, looking like a temperate, maybe it's supposed to look like an Earth, a lush Earth. It's just this gray, cloudy kind of, well, not cloudy, just, oh, sorry.
00:47:42
Speaker
work reminder. And he actually finds it too distressing to be there. And he is bringing back too many memories, so he leaves. And in engineering, Jitrel is preparing to gather the other Metron Cloud sample for his research. He's pushing for a bigger container, which doesn't make a lot of sense because the isotopes are tiny, but... Again, sauce.
00:48:06
Speaker
Yes, that's exactly, Jamie, exactly. But the transporter is successful and they have the sample on board. And oh yes, I did want to say one thing about on that bridge that scene where he describes like when Neelix is looking at the, you know, remains of this destroyed planet. Yeah, he has this kind of whole monologue, but it starts off with like, it's hard to believe that on a cloudless night, they could look up from Talaxia and see like
00:48:32
Speaker
the science of civilization on the moon. I was like, no, it'd be so cool if we can look at our new moon and see like little cities on the moon or another planet nearby. I was a bit jealous of this
00:48:50
Speaker
you know, like having that kind of scene, that scene. But I think that was a little sort of an Easter egg sort of thrown in there, though, for that. Well, if that could be imagined, could we do it sort of thing that Star Trek occasionally does of positing a positive future outcome? Could we terraform the moon someday, do you reckon? Terraform is such a cool idea. I wish we could do that. When are we going to
00:49:15
Speaker
I'm not that uninhabitable. I mean, like, I'm confused. Anyway, I'm sure so. Maybe our viewers can write in and tell us. I'm sure there's a million reasons. I don't know. If you just say forget Mars, go to the moon. Like, can you come on our podcast and explain why you're not going through? We had some flat earth listeners who just like took a completely OTT out out there sort of curveball approach to that question.
00:49:45
Speaker
Oh, sorry, I kind of missed that. Sorry, Jean. But yes, I think it would be so cool to look up into the nice guy and see a planet and see other people living on the planet. Sorry, that's all I wanted to say. But yes, Jenny, the next scene, Kez is looking for Neelix and he's hiding out in the mess hall. The lights are out and he's actually crouching behind like the counter. And do you want to explain the scene?
00:50:12
Speaker
Yeah, so this is where we find out what the dream was all about, basically, that it's not just survivor's guilt, it's like, full on guilt. Because as it turns out, he's sort of been lying about the fact that he did not go back to Talaxia to help defend the planet. He, he went back and then he desert deserted, basically, and was sort of running away to hide. Because he was scared, which is understandable.
00:50:40
Speaker
And also he thought it was unjust. And he, yeah, yeah. But of course now he looks back and he says, oh, well, it must have been because I was scared rather than like morally objective. And I guess there's a bit of confusion there about whether I guess he doesn't even really know how much of it was fear and how much of it was morally objecting. And how can you know really what your unconscious is doing? But he feels very guilty, understandably. And Kes sort of questions him about that.
00:51:11
Speaker
posits that maybe all the anger that he, which I find a bit weird, he says maybe all the anger that he feels towards Jitrell is, you know, towards himself. Maybe he's angry at himself because he feels guilty for what he sees as leaving his family to die, which is very valid point. But on the other hand, I mean, but you would be angry at Jitrell. That's sort of some genuine anger there. Yes, I agree.
00:51:40
Speaker
Yeah, as you say that, I think, yeah, I agree with like, well, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but I did like her line because when he kind of finally confesses, and then he says, she says, I'm like, what an awful burden you've had to carry all these years. Like, because it's this mix of genuine hatred, I guess, for the sky, which is right.
00:52:03
Speaker
were totally understandable. But it is mixed up with his kind of shame at what he feels as like not doing his bit to save like maybe he would be more he would be able to manage those feelings better if he had like felt that he'd done his best in a certain situation rather than feeling that he was a coward or did his worst and he has deep shame about his behavior though. Although now we what we sort of know a bit more about what tends to happen with things like survivors guilt
00:52:33
Speaker
you've got to wonder whether he's completely misremembering. And in fact, there was it really wasn't anything to do with fear or cowardice. And he really did have a moral objection. And but now he's finding a way to blame himself because that's what survivors do. Yeah, but she I think again, she brings like, I think has bring some logic to the situation, like to deal with these feelings, because she's like,
00:53:02
Speaker
Whether it was fear or misremembered or he had a moral stand, the position he took did threaten his own life because during wartime to like not turn out to fight could be, was punishable by death. So she's like, okay, so I mean, you weren't being, it's not really cowardice necessarily. Maybe that was because you were still risking your own life for your beliefs. But he, I think he, even when she says something to him, she's like, he answers like, I don't know.
00:53:31
Speaker
So I think you're right, Jamie. He's like, he is confused about Pembers, his motivation, but it is wrapped up with his feelings about Dutrell, I think. I did find that interesting take, Kez's take on that, the sort of point about, you know, you were risking your life based on the actions you did took. Well, no, because the thing is, I was a bit like, and maybe this is, you know,
00:54:01
Speaker
being a bit too hard on Linux, but I was like, well, but he has two options. And either way, it's risky to his life. So I'm like, I'm not sure I'd see the option of, you know, not taking the military services, risking his life is because the outcomes he risks his life either way. Anyway, I mean, a mile and yards of tech the way he did.
00:54:28
Speaker
Yeah. And I also think that Kez is trying to shield him from the self belief that he chose the action he did because of cowardice, because that leaves him a path open to believe that he chose something and made a moral and morally driven choice as opposed to a cowardice driven one, which seems to be the one that's eating up at him. Hmm.
00:54:58
Speaker
I think either way, yeah, either way, whether he was right or not, there's actually two kind of sets of tumultuous feelings going on and they wrapped up and he kind of needs to separate them to move on from them. I would, I would imagine. Act four, it's pretty short. You'll be pleased to know. How many acts are there? Five. Is that like standard for
00:55:28
Speaker
I'm not sure, but I will soon find out. Um, cause that's not really a three act structure. I think it's like the, you know, each, each ad break before, not that we have the ads, um, is the like, you know, when it like, you know, cuts right. I remember the ad break. Um, so yeah, so then we go back to sick pay and they're about to like run this, some procedure or something where, but suddenly Jitrell deactivates the doctor.
00:55:58
Speaker
Um, and sedates Neelix who kind of enters and interrupts, I think to kind of talk to him about his feelings, but he gets kind of sedated before he can say anything. Um, and, uh, the trial proceeds with what I wrote down here, what appears to be a sick experiment because the isotopes and stuff in the canister turn into this kind of vaguely organic looking tissue, but don't know what's going on at that point. And that's Neelix also saw that and freaked out, which is when he gets sedated. Um,
00:56:28
Speaker
I thought it was pretty perceptive of Neelix to when he walked in, he just sees this weird organic mass in a jar and he immediately sort of figures out what's going on, even though he doesn't know any of the details of the scientific details, but he's like, you're all conducting some mad experiment and it's, you know, it's morally questionable and very perceptive. Yeah, very perceptive, but based very much on the vision, the mental energy of Dr. Chitralasil.
00:56:56
Speaker
And when Janeway is not getting any reports from sick baby, they kind of investigate and they realize something's gone wrong. Um, they two box scans and picks up to trial in the transporter rooms. So Janeway and two of race there. Um, and as they enter, um, they'd like time to step aside cause he's at the transporter controls and he says stuff like, let me bring them back. And New York's asked like, bring who back and to trial answers the victims of Rhinox. So.
00:57:26
Speaker
Turns out a lot has been going on that we're not really aware of, I guess. But that takes us into Act Five, where Drell explains his crazy scheme. Shame, not crazy. His well-intentioned scheme to try and bring back the survivors of the Metrian Cascade 15 years previously, or whatever it was.
Redemption & Closure
00:57:48
Speaker
Does anyone want to explain some of the science? Otherwise, I have a little few notes written down. Well, yeah, I mean, it's absolutely ludicrous, of course. What is the one reason, between two books, like, but there's billions of things, how are you going to, like, make them go through? It's such a good point. Yeah. I mean, this is my immediate thought. Like, obviously, there's many other reasons why not. But like, you're just like, there's not. So he wants to bring everyone back because he thinks that they've all been held, the bits of them,
00:58:16
Speaker
tiny microscopic bits of them have been held in some kind of suspension, suspended animation or some such. And if he can transport them using the genetic pattern or one case study, he has the medical records of one case study, one person who died there, and he's got their genetic structure. So he's going to use them as like a template. And then he's going to transport all these
00:58:43
Speaker
bits of this one individual from, um, from the atmosphere around Ryan X, I guess, and, and recreate this individual, basically bring him back to life. Um, which is where it gets all like very, um, frank and sensey. That was brilliant. Thank you, Jane. Cause I didn't, some of that I didn't pick up, but yes, like trying to like combine bits of them scattered in the atmosphere based on medical records and this, this template. Um,
00:59:11
Speaker
Janeway is like, well, no one thinks plan is going to work. But I think at this point, Janeway also realizes that Neelix never had the disease. The doctor just wanted to realize that with their transporter technology, maybe he had a chance of experimenting or trying out this theory of his. But he's desperate to try it because he only has a few hours to live, and I guess a lot on his conscience. Neelix also wants it to work. So he's pleading with Janeway.
00:59:41
Speaker
Oh no, Jenny can't leave us because we have another science person, so she's checking on the chalice. She'll be back. But yeah, they're going to attempt the procedure, even though, I mean, no one on Voyager thinks it has a high chance of working. Anything to say about the attempted procedure, Jenny? Well,
01:00:02
Speaker
I am glad that there was some I did enjoy the whole everyone that thinks there's not a chance in hell that this is going to work because I feel like oh good there's some level of some level of realism because I do I know it's obviously sci-fi but you know I did enjoy that and of course it doesn't work which I also enjoyed because like again it's just adding a hint of realism and although you do see this really weird
01:00:30
Speaker
like possible outline of a, of a being. Um, like it almost works. Um, that's elaxian. Yeah. Um, I'm surprised they used to, to do it. I mean, I guess they put it in Felix's hands to make say, I want to, I want to give it a go. But, um, that's an interesting decision from Jamie.
01:00:58
Speaker
Yes, I guess there was there was nothing to lose, but not much to gain. You know, like they're bringing someone back to life. And not only that, someone who died 15 years ago. It's quite, you know, I feel like there's another episode way down the line where something else happens where they have the opportunity to bring
01:01:18
Speaker
someone basically back from the dead and there's this whole like philosophical discussion around it and you know the implications could be disastrous whereas in this episode like that's all just ignored. I think it's a good time for sure. Jamie just to say you're a bit quiet sorry that's okay. I was just going to say am I the only one who is sort of reacting to this particular one thinking it's necromancy and no good will come of it?
01:01:48
Speaker
I know it is pretty, yeah, I found it all a bit sort of gothic horror movie, you know, like all novel, you know, but again, like Red said, I guess it's time pressure. Yeah.
01:02:03
Speaker
sort of gets it into it by Nelix. Unintentional. I mean, if I'm in Nelix and Gittrell's shoes, then I 100% want this to happen. Like, absolutely no shadow of a doubt. And Red, as you say, there's no risk to Janeway from trying it, apart from the fact it, you know, is unlikely to work. Yeah, and at that point, they would only retrieve one, right? Because I kind of missed that. But I think from your explanation, Jan, that's so... Just, yeah, case study. Case study. So...
01:02:31
Speaker
They attempt this, it feels, and a disappointment or an ill health control collapses as well. I shouldn't laugh. And the final scene is in Sick Bay, which I think who wants to take us out here? Well, I'm not sure if there's any kind of lead up conversation, but I remember the main end of the scene, which is basically needless, comes to tell him what he originally had wanted to tell him when he first was looking for him.
01:03:02
Speaker
is that Neelix has said that he wants to say he forgives him. And, you know, with that, Juchel looks up at him with sort of, I don't know, wonder and surprise relief, I guess, in his eyes, and then dies. Yeah, exactly. I'm going to add, Jean.
01:03:23
Speaker
No, no, no, I mean just that the interplay at the end shows how far the relationship has come with Jitral being glad to see Neelix and asks him if he considers it a fitting punishment that he's dying of this cascade related ailment to which Neelix responds that he's started to think of the cascade as simply a punishment for hatred
01:03:52
Speaker
generally, leading into this moment of forgiveness. I'm not sure that Jitrel ever hated Neelix is the thing. I don't think it's a mutual thing. It's a pretty heavy episode. It is indeed. So I, yeah, that brings us to the end, I guess. I mean, it's a heavy episode.
01:04:21
Speaker
a lot of themes, I'm sure. So Jenny, do you have any lessons or themes that you enjoyed? Yeah, I mean, the whole like, the nature of scientific endeavor and moral implications around that whole theme, I find it really interesting. And, you know, I like that they explore that. And then there's a whole like, survivors guilt, I guess. What else?
01:04:51
Speaker
You don't have to cover them all, just the ones you... Yeah, I feel like there's Lou's. Jamie, you're smiling. No, I think you've...
01:05:05
Speaker
Is there a lesson that you took away? You've given me such a gratuitous opportunity to say that the lesson that I learned is never to carry out a 300,000 person genocide of a planet by leaving my technology open for use by military technology.
01:05:24
Speaker
not dissimilarly to the quandary that faces the protagonists of the Big Bang Theory with the, I think, stabilization gyrocopter thing that they work on. It's funny I was thinking about that as well. We've already covered it, I think. Well, I had my own theme, which was, I mean, obviously, I'm surprised no one said forgiveness, but... Oh, of course. But actually, for me, I think there was the main takeaway is that there's some things that you can't come back from.
01:05:52
Speaker
If you do something so horrific or so terrible, you can't be forgiven or get forgiveness. And so yeah, that's a good terrifying. Not that I'm a part, I'm not, you know, not on the scale of genocide, but you know, there's some things you can do as a human that really will wail in the rest of your life. So it's better to try for me, avoid them. That's an interesting interpretation. Yeah.
01:06:23
Speaker
He was really, that tutorial character is really haunted by what he did. He can't get it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. And his whole life is trying to make up for it to the extent that he comes up with like crazy schemes. Now. No disagreement. Sorry. I think you guys have to go first. I need a little bit of thinking time.
01:06:52
Speaker
Okay. Oh, this hurts me. This hurts me somewhere I don't want to go. Neelix! Neelix! Neelix! I can still pick someone else if you're in this. It's inevitable. Fine, Kez. That was inevitable as well. Neelix. Do you want to say why? No.
01:07:20
Speaker
Are you feeling deep shame or something? I don't wanna. No, I mean, obviously for a man to, an individual to experience the things that Neelik did and then still find it within himself to channel the redemptive power of forgiveness is inspiring. Sit on foot. Shannon?
01:07:48
Speaker
Well, as always, I tend to do it more on the actual actor or actress. And just to be different, because I know that everyone will choose Neelix, I actually might choose Jitral. Yes. Because I do think he did, I don't know who the actress, but he did a fantastic performance, you know, throughout, but also especially when, you know, his eyes started filling with tears. And then he spoke about how he could never apologize. Because how could you some some things go so far beyond apologies being possible that
01:08:18
Speaker
And, you know, there were lots of little scenes like that, which I just think he delivered really well. Yeah, I think that is an excellent choice. James Sloyan. He is now 83 years old. And he was actually in quite a few episodes of Star Trek, the different series over time. But yes, yeah, he's doing a really good job. I agree. Yeah, my star player, as I foreshadowed at the beginning, was
01:08:46
Speaker
Cares just because I thought someone would pick Neelix. But yeah, I think, as you said, Jamie, right at the beginning, we see a bit more of a character and her... I like how she was completely unjudgmental of Neelix. As he was sharing her story, she didn't jump to any confusion. She asked these probing questions. She got to see things from a different perspective. Or try. She was very convincing and getting him to at least consider the screening. Like, I thank him.
01:09:15
Speaker
uh good to see her in that kind of active role um yeah so all three different star players very good and you know i i find it hard to warm to Kez um and i think partly to do with the
01:09:34
Speaker
she is later sort of replaced by a character who absolutely adores. So I sort of feel like when I'm rewatching it, I'm like hurrying on her exit. I mean, I sort of understand TV and why they couldn't have kept both of them, but I'm sure budgets or something. But I know what you mean. And also, I learned an important lesson, which is like, if you love the childhood show, whatever, never Google the actor or actress that was playing that person.
01:10:02
Speaker
Oh, because their life might have gone downhill. And it's been. Oh, what happened? I don't know. I think we discussed it before, but it's not not important. But so I think I did love her character or I do like her character. But I know what you mean when you're like, when is that other one going to arrive? And they can't be not on at the same time, really. So don't ask. I get I get what you're saying. Oh, you know who it is.
01:10:31
Speaker
You'll find out. You'll remember. Any final, final thoughts before we wrap up? And, um, no, no need to, um, we, we, it's one hour, 10. Not bad, not bad. Do you think it's improved the streamlining or? We'll see. I think, you know, as I think I shared with you guys on the weekend, um, not that we're doing this the exact same way, but the hosts of the Office of the Easy Pod Trust, Angela,
01:11:01
Speaker
And Jenna, I forgot their surnames, famous, world famous actors. They did like six trial recordings of their podcast before like settling on their format. But we aren't going to do that, but we can keep experimenting or try this, try this a few times. But let's discuss that off camera or offline. So thank you everyone. If you listened to the end, well done. And see you next time for the final episode of season one.
01:11:56
Speaker
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