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We watch "Tattoo" (S2 Ep.9) image

We watch "Tattoo" (S2 Ep.9)

S2 E9 · Janeway's Children
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15 Plays6 months ago

Welcome to Janeway’s Children

New format, same old show!

This week we are watching "Tattoo" in which we meet a young Chakotay, and the Doctor gets a taste of his own medicine (from the last person you’d expect!).

We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.

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Transcript

Technical Difficulties and Catching Up

00:00:02
red23
Okay, welcome back. I guess it's been a and little while since we last recorded, but we're back. Oh, and Jamie's gone. I was born in auspicious...
00:00:11
Jen
We've immediately lost Jamie, that is, that is a bad start.
00:00:14
red23
Well, at least that gives me something to say, because I was really struggling there. Do you think he will return?
00:00:21
Jen
Well, maybe, maybe we should restart this one.
00:00:22
red23
ah
00:00:25
Jen
I'm so sorry my laptop shush, it doesn't work.
00:00:28
red23
Oh, dear.
00:00:28
Jen
Oh, his laptop partner isn't working.
00:00:31
Jen
I'm so sorry, I'd be on, you, here. You want it, you want it? Yeah. Is there no other way to do it? I got no other laptop. Oh, okay. Who's going to have to do it?
00:00:31
red23
The very charger he went to go retreat.
00:00:41
red23
He's like, what?
00:00:42
Jen
Okay.
00:00:42
red23
Ah, you guys are back. Um.
00:00:47
Jen
And there's a... dog box I'm so sorry. Like ah my laptop charger is a bit pulled up. Are we recording or, you know?
00:00:53
red23
Yes, yeah, we are. I mean, you'll also be happy to hear that. Oh, there is some serious echo there, but I think it's done.
00:00:56
Jen
yeah
00:01:00
red23
No, not sure.
00:01:01
Jen
Yeah.
00:01:04
red23
Oh, I guess because you took the headphones off.
00:01:05
Jen
Yeah.
00:01:07
red23
Maybe it's just adjusting.
00:01:09
Jen
yeah
00:01:09
red23
ah
00:01:10
Jen
Um, right. So, uh, don't talk too loudly. Don't talk too loudly because dogs off.
00:01:18
red23
Okay, well, okay.
00:01:22
Jen
Or are you saying that like a vampire control the creatures of the night? very high you um Right.
00:01:27
red23
Okay, well, after all those,
00:01:27
Jen
So who's
00:01:29
red23
and After all the technical difficulties, welcome back to Jamie's Children.
00:01:31
Jen
yeah yeah
00:01:33
red23
I think our podcast is called. ah We are talking about um season two, episode nine called Tattoo.
00:01:39
Jen
not
00:01:41
red23
Jamie, are you ready to give us your one minute summary?

Recap of 'Tattoo' Episode

00:01:45
Jen
Oh, is it me? Okay. ah nili The Neelix treads on a bear trap mechanism is used for the umpteenth time. Chakotay finds an unexpected link to his past. And comment is made on the need for humanity ah to evolve from where it is now to somewhere that respects the land and the spirits of the land. But a newfound sense of kinship and connection is both forged and experienced by one of the more isolated feeling members of the crew, Chakotay. Although in so doing, it feels as though he's only enhancing his own isolation, going by the way he reacts to his team at the very end.
00:02:32
red23
Oh, you're gonna have to remind me about that and I'll try to remember how. Oh, yes, I think I know what you mean.
00:02:35
Jen
yeah I thinking of the scene in which ah he and, um ah effectively, the skyscraper alien ah have found out their commonality and he's bidding him goodbye.
00:02:50
Jen
And then his entire team just burst in with guns drawn and he goes, put those away and just angrily ignores them in a way that seems a bit arrogant and distant and frustrated, posish.
00:02:50
red23
Yes.
00:03:02
red23
He seems very disappointed in them at that moment in time. I agree. But yeah, thank you for that summary. Before we um go into our kind of initial reactions, I just thought I'd point out this is our 25th episode of the podcast. So now we're in the 0.001% or something like that.
00:03:17
Jen
you Yeah, what what was the original milestone? Many start but no one gets to attend or?
00:03:24
red23
I think getting past 20 is quite a big deal.
00:03:28
Jen
Okay. Yeah, Bonnie, so there's a dog nearby called Bonnie, who agrees.
00:03:32
red23
ah I heard him there.
00:03:33
Jen
Can you hear her, Bucky?
00:03:36
red23
Thank you, Barney. ah
00:03:38
Jen
i just we keep for a bit because he said some more behind um Well, in which case you must do far more talking. OK, well, i'll I'll try and yeah i'll use my calm voice. um
00:03:49
Jen
so ah Oh, yes, I do. and
00:03:49
red23
So initial reactions, if you want to give them.

Critique on Episode Engagement

00:03:56
red23
Because I know what you're gonna say, Jenny.
00:03:57
Jen
Yeah, I don't know what it is about this episode, but whenever I watch it, it sends me to sleep every single time.
00:04:05
Jen
um I guess that isn't um particularly positive thinking, but I don't dislike it or anything, but it's definitely, a it's definitely, it's not just um that it's, I probably don't, sort of, doesn't hold my attention that well. There's also something about, like, the volume, I think. It's it's a very, sort of, softly, softly quiet kind of episode, and it's, yeah, it's just great for falling asleep. Yeah, well, Tchaikovsky's voice soft and harmonious.
00:04:27
red23
Something to keep in mind for those who... Sorry Jamie, what?
00:04:33
Jen
unlike mine which sets dogs off.
00:04:33
red23
That's true.
00:04:35
Jen
But I also think um there's a case to be made that this is where ah James Cameron got the idea for Avatar from ah leveraging trans alien species tribal kinships.
00:04:45
red23
Oh. You know, I love that you said that because, I mean, I can't really remember Avatar that well too. say anything, except what I have noticed by listening to Delta Fliers, and I don't know if you've noticed this recently, but often Harry Kim will be like some little moment that they're discussing an episode. He'll be like, oh, that's where that famous director got the idea for this famous film from. And you're like, I think that might be a leap in that case. But in this case, I think that could be possible.
00:05:17
Jen
but I love the way you go with possible as opposed to probable.
00:05:17
red23
ah But it's quite entertaining when...
00:05:22
red23
Oh, even probable in this case, I think. Sometimes I think he's really just making a joke all the time. But yeah, I think overall, i I could see why it would send you to sleep, Jenny. But I think...
00:05:35
Jen
I really liked it.
00:05:38
red23
No, I'm not saying I... And I ah kind of thought, wow, Jamie's really gonna like this episode. um And I...
00:05:45
Jen
Oh.
00:05:46
red23
ah ah But I think I kind of like the overall concept, which we'll get into a bit more detail, but this link between, you know, Earth and our planet 70,000 light years away. But maybe we'll get more into that later on.
00:05:57
Jen
Hmm.
00:06:01
red23
So Jenny, yeah just as a reminder to our listeners out there, we have our new format. We go around, instead of discussing, I guess, but in chronological order, just our favorite moments in rounds, three rounds or more, if we have more.
00:06:13
Jen
really
00:06:14
red23
So handing over to you, Jenny, to facilitate us. use that very formal word
00:06:18
Jen
Yeah, great. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I kind of already said one of mine, really, just the whole, unfortunately, there's something about this episode, which is just wonderful dozing off to. So I might pass on to Jamie. What's your first? Oh, right. So you're not you're not going to go to the discussion point, you're just going, okay. Well, I'm kind of disgusted.
00:06:41
red23
to use that very formal word.
00:06:42
Jen
I would like to talk about what I describe as the Neelix bear trap mechanism for advancing the plot. And I have decided to call this a plot device where Neelix, somehow as the least qualified man on this, or human, no, not even human, but sentient being on the starship finds a way to wangle his way onto an away mission, haplessly treads in the trap, triggers the kidnap, steps on the lava volcano,
00:07:13
Jen
something happens and a plot element is triggered, which I am now going to label the Neelix treading on a bear trap mechanism and ask if you have noticed in other episodes this ping hissed.
00:07:26
red23
Yes, I mean, he's always the one to get himself in a bit of trouble on an away mission or even on that ship in the last one where he just walked away you know and disappeared forever, not forever.
00:07:37
Jen
the
00:07:38
red23
But um I did love his rather over the top acting when his eye was scratched and he was writhing around on the forest floor.
00:07:46
Jen
and yes I mean it's not that out at the top, an eagle had clawed his eye. some way rato yeah one out there So we've gone from Neelix as a plot mechanism to Neelix as a sympathy vampire, duly noted.
00:07:51
red23
My eye, my eye.
00:08:06
Jen
and moving on to red the
00:08:08
red23
Well, I think maybe on Neelix, because I'm just trying to think what's the best point to have to fit in here.
00:08:09
Jen
of
00:08:13
red23
But I i love the fact that I'm kind of going to combine two elements into one at this point, because they're both really small. But when the episode started and the first voice you hear on the, like, Obey planet, I think, they were on a planet, is Tuvox.
00:08:23
Jen
and
00:08:30
red23
I was like, here we go ah, a familiar, because I guess we haven't watched this in a while, and I was like, ah, I've missed him in his logical manner.
00:08:33
Jen
so
00:08:39
Jen
and all
00:08:41
red23
I don't know what that says about the state of the people I hang out with most of the time.
00:08:43
Jen
ah Can I draw on the side?
00:08:46
red23
But, um.
00:08:46
Jen
Can I dwell on the fact that Tuvok is equal rank to Neelix as ah expedition botanist?
00:08:53
red23
Yes, and that was my second point. I do love the fact that maybe they're starting to plant some seeds for want of a better analogy.
00:08:55
Jen
ah god
00:09:01
red23
And that Tuvok and Nelix have something in common, much to Tuvok's horror, I'm sure.
00:09:06
Jen
ah
00:09:07
red23
But they both are, what? Orchid, what did they say? Orchid farmers, orchid growers, orchid something.
00:09:14
Jen
I think wants to eat them.
00:09:16
red23
Yes. I think they both try to grow. um Oh, yes.
00:09:24
Jen
Yeah.
00:09:25
red23
They want to both grow prize orchids, but perhaps for different reasons. But I enjoyed that.
00:09:30
Jen
jesus
00:09:33
red23
Because they have an interesting relationship throughout you know the series. So it's fun to see these moments of connection.
00:09:36
Jen
yeah Oh yeah, I mean, when we get to the, or maybe we already got to it the, the two bucks or two big steps.
00:09:44
red23
No, we haven't got to that.
00:09:47
Jen
So hopefully that is what happened on episode, if I get this anyway, but I digress. Um, so, uh, I think, um, but I have, I had to thought while watching this, um, it's really minor, but the whole doctor's storyline, um, about him. injecting himself

The Doctor's Empathy Experiment

00:10:10
Jen
with some kind of flu so he can empathize with his patients by experiencing what it's like to be ill, um which Kess brilliantly decides that because he's so his idea is that he's going to behave really well and that he's going to prove that you can behave when you're ill. yeah um And it all goes to plan until Kess
00:10:35
Jen
Um, without telling him extends, um, the duration of the experiment such that he doesn't actually know when he's going to feel better. And I just thought that is such an inspired idea because actually that is when you're ill. It's it's, if you knew there was an end, like an end time and date, it would make it so much easier to get through it. It's, it's the not knowing. Um, and it's just lingering on. and you're wishing you could be healthy but not knowing when it's going to happen um that really gets you.
00:11:08
Jen
I don't know, I just...
00:11:09
red23
Oh, yes. I mean, 100% also like, I mean, it doesn't apply to just being sick, but I like, I know myself. I can hold it together. If I know, if someone tells me you've got one hour or 10 hours, I can hold it together. But if after the 10 hours is still happening or the one hour, I'm going to lose it.
00:11:25
Jen
mean
00:11:27
red23
Like, you know, it's not about the length of time. It's about when I was told it was going to end. You're like, um, yes, I really also related to that that point.
00:11:38
Jen
I didn't enjoy that whole little storyline, I guess, for Doctor.
00:11:45
red23
up
00:11:46
Jen
He acts really well.
00:11:46
red23
I mean I
00:11:48
Jen
He does, doesn't he? It was just so wonderfully acted, sort of horror on the face, and in that last scene where Kez is telling him what she has done, But could ah could I jump to my little bit, because it's sort of a spin-off from this. I just love the fact that the doctor, having wanted to demonstrate that you can hold it together and not be an asshole when you're sick, he falls apart the moment he has been sick for 15 minutes or so over the actual amount of time that was you know allotted to him. And he just absolutely loses it.
00:12:29
Jen
Is that Is that red? Yeah, but Kez then tells him that she'd extended his illness by one hour and one hour only. I just absolutely love that.
00:12:43
red23
Oh, Jamie, I think you've done that thing again. Where? but Well, that's life.
00:12:48
Jen
Oh no, my attention to the disorder again.
00:12:50
red23
But.
00:12:52
red23
ah um But I mean, I have there. I mean, I did love that a whole story arc of The Doctor but going from a completely terrible bedside manner with Ensign Wildman. um And I thought, oh, I wonder if any pregnant woman watching this episode would relate to being just completely dismissed by the way he dismissed her pay.
00:13:02
Jen
good
00:13:11
Jen
Yeah.
00:13:11
red23
I'm sure they'd be sad to know that in the 24th century, there's still doctors like that. But also I was like, why did they have a cure for sciatica? I mean, it is the 24th century.
00:13:21
Jen
yeah
00:13:24
Jen
I mean, yeah, that's me. That grieves me deeply.
00:13:24
red23
um
00:13:26
red23
but But I also really loved when the doctor told Kiz that's what he was going to do.
00:13:31
Jen
look
00:13:34
red23
um
00:13:34
Jen
Hmm.
00:13:35
red23
she said something like her face when she said, I think, or anything that's very brave of you, like as if she was already something very sneaky.
00:13:38
Jen
Oh, that's not bad.
00:13:45
red23
And then Jamie, you're right. I mean, but he totally lost it. I mean, his I don't want to cause an upset, but the term man flu came to mind because he was like, when Kez has to leave, he's like, don't leave. I'm fading. Like the simulated illness is going to lead to my simulated death.
00:13:59
Jen
like
00:14:01
red23
I mean, there was just so many funny lines that he had. um So I really.
00:14:05
Jen
it's It's fine, Reggie, it's just getting cancelled after this episode.
00:14:10
red23
I have not experienced man flu or woman flu, so I can't comment, but he was very dramatic, to you know, in that extra hour, he really lost it.
00:14:20
Jen
he was It extra, it was extra 15 minutes.
00:14:22
red23
Yeah.
00:14:24
Jen
He didn't get to the hour before losing it.
00:14:26
red23
Yeah. So back to you, Jenny, sorry.
00:14:28
Jen
so and Yeah. um So I'm whizzing through these, gone but to be fair, that might be for the best um ah purely because we're discussing an episode that sends me to sleep.
00:14:41
Jen
and why am My third one, this is my third one, um was in general, I guess this is probably part of the reason why I get a bit sleepy with this episode. I possibly just don't understand it. I have a lot of questions about this episode and I always end up, um if I'm still awake again, I always end up um finishing yeah thinking, ah feeling like i've missed so i've missed I've misunderstood in some way. Like I just, I'm so confused about this. this So somehow the the likelihood of this happening. So he's in a different quadrant. There are billions, billions of miles away. And somehow they managed to, and all the millions of planets all around them, they find a planet where there's a symbol from his ancestors.
00:14:41
red23
Hahahaha!
00:15:29
Jen
um and then this whole sort of storyline of them, it's because, you know, there there was these sky spirits and they they journeyed to Earth and then they came back and it's just seems so tenuous. I know it's sci-fi fantasy. and
00:15:45
red23
But Jenny, did you not grow up hearing about all the conspiracy theories about, like, aliens that have visited the planet Earth like many times before?
00:15:45
Jen
amazing
00:15:50
Jen
Yeah, but but it's more
00:15:52
red23
Like, I think that's just what's tapping into those kind of...
00:15:54
Jen
to Yeah, it's not that so much. It's more the fact that then while they're on their journey back home, they happen to land on this planet where he's going.
00:16:02
red23
Oh, yes, I mean, it's a pretty huge coincidence.
00:16:03
Jen
um but you And then I just didn't really, I feel like I'm probably missing the spiritual understanding thing going on here, but I was like wondering who who was that his father's face in the sky?
00:16:05
red23
ah
00:16:16
Jen
And then I what i didn't understand this sort of ending where he he's saying his father is talking to him and he never spoke to him before. um And just in general, I just, I don't really understand that. And what, what does he mean? He's talking to him, like, in what way? Metaphorically, metaphorically. The screams of the birds and sighs of the air. Is it the bird? Is it the bird talking? Well, I think, I think, much like a Paolo Coyo novel with a spirit quest, I think you're on shaky ground to be trying to interpret things too solidly from the journey.
00:16:38
red23
I'm sure Jamie has a lot to say about this.
00:16:51
Jen
Well, I'm just very confused in general, I think. i and So I wondered what you guys thought. I mean, were you confused? Does it make sense to you? I mean, basically the aliens came and visited Earth. Chakotay's ancestors started worshipping them. Chakotay crossed paths and recognised them through a joint cultural symbol. They recognised Chakotay but didn't want to give his crew fuel.

Chakotay's Spiritual Journey

00:17:18
Jen
um And then they realised that they had a shared taste in facial tattoos.
00:17:24
Jen
So here we are talking about it.
00:17:28
red23
Yeah, that's all. I mean, I think, um, so I think, no, I mean, as I said, I kind of at the, like at the, at the top of the, at the top of the show, the top of the episode.
00:17:32
Jen
I assume you want to be on that there obviously.
00:17:42
red23
Um, I do really like the concept because I think when I was growing up, there was a lot of alien awareness.
00:17:42
Jen
so
00:17:48
red23
Let's put it that way. You know, like the X-Files and conspiracy theories and alien abduction and all this kind of thing. Uh, this episode,
00:17:56
Jen
i was this least ah documentaries
00:17:59
red23
hu
00:18:00
Jen
I was the subject of at least four documentaries.
00:18:02
red23
ah to um And so this episode, I guess, overall implies that this alien species visited 45,000 years ago and then periodically ah from that time on to check on this group of people. So I thought that was kind of interesting because no one knew, obviously no one would have picked that up and kind of given that's kind of correct. um Uh, and I guess the way I interpreted it is that yes, 45 years, well, 45,000 years ago, these aliens visited, uh, found this tribe.
00:18:34
red23
I mean, this is a bit, I think it would be better if they just like, uh, kind of left some aliens there, but they kind of gave these people a genetic gift, uh, that helped them like succeed or they moved on and they were curious and all that kind of thing.
00:18:35
Jen
Okay.
00:18:47
red23
I'm like, I'm sure they were like that already. I don't know why you needed aliens for that. But, um, and those people were the ancestors of Jakarta's father. And he was very interested in his ancestors. Shikote, the child, less so.
00:19:00
Jen
What?
00:19:01
red23
um But also, I think there's a lot of regret in Shikote because he his dad died when they didn't have, they hadn't kind of resolved their issues and differences of opinion.
00:19:07
Jen
Yes.
00:19:12
red23
And he's, where they can literally, or his figure, like, metaphorically speaking to his dad, he really you would love to put that relationship right. But, you know, he has regret that he can't. Or maybe he's drawn more to the spiritual side because that might suggest that there is a way to kind of at least speak or mend that relationship. That's how I kind of saw it.
00:19:35
Jen
I think yours is probably close to the mark of the mine.
00:19:40
red23
I mean, thank goodness Shikote had that tattoo, otherwise the whole crew of Voyager would have died. So.
00:19:46
Jen
I mean, if Trucote hadn't had the tattoo, they probably wouldn't be in the plant in the first place.
00:19:48
red23
Mm.
00:19:51
Jen
So they wouldn't have been at risk of dying.
00:19:51
red23
ah
00:19:53
Jen
ah But Patatia Patatoe.
00:19:54
red23
yes also possible
00:19:56
Jen
Oh, so you think that he was drawn?
00:19:57
red23
awesome
00:19:59
Jen
Well, he was, he was drawn. Well, they they needed to find things, but he was drawn by the fact he saw the symbol um that was, you know, the sign of land healing of his ancestors. And yeah, that's what made them investigate further, I think, along with the Neelix bear traps.
00:20:14
red23
Yes, what's the possible? I mean, he could have seen a symbol and been like, it's just a coincidence. Nevermind. But you know, Jamie's always like, should we explore? So he's like, okay, let's explore.
00:20:31
Jen
and Yes, i yeah I do love the genuine understatement of, theoretically, we are here to explore. Just theoretically.
00:20:44
red23
But i also I don't know who that face in the clouds was. I wasn't like sure if it was just like a, some kind of projection to scare people away from the planet or... I wasn't sure.
00:20:53
Jen
Just a generic vision quest symbolism for a generic vision quest symbolic episode
00:21:02
red23
You sound like you know quite a lot about vision quests, Jamie. The only time I come across them is in Star Trek.
00:21:05
Jen
um I have just watched far too many episodes were of programs where there has been a vision quest, ah culminating in the epic one in Blue Mountain State, which is, I gather, a teenage American football gross-out comedy series ah in which someone has a vision quest while wearing a full suit of armour. um Because of the fact, anyway, I shall go into it, but yeah.
00:21:36
red23
Okay.
00:21:36
Jen
Well, I mean, I was gonna, I think I finished my three, so I was going to hand over again. And maybe this is your that point. at it oh well Well, I wasn't expected to talk about Blue Mountain State because you know, it's about the most low path thing. Is there any chance we could quickly go? Yeah. Oh, I do think, as you've probably spoken about this before, but did you, did you guys get a sense at the end of Chikoshi having a sense of greater distance from his crew than he started with in that sort of angry reaction in one of the last scenes to the crew intruding on his moment with the Sky Spirit alien.
00:22:17
red23
Well, I mean, I think it's funny. I mean, not funny, but it's interesting that, I mean, I think we all picked up on that moment, but maybe interpreted different ways. Janie, did you, how did you see it?
00:22:29
Jen
Yeah, I mean, I just I didn't really see a sense of distance between them I just thought it was highlighting the different cultures and this is like a spiritual tribe and you know I don't know the difference between the crew coming in to sort of rescue him with their weapons out and um I'm not sure I can articulate really well I mean
00:22:55
red23
Well, yeah, I mean, I think he's, oh, I was gonna say, he's just had this like kind of, you know, moment with these, what are they called?
00:23:01
Jen
It's
00:23:04
red23
Yeah, sky spirits or inheritors or something.
00:23:05
Jen
ghost spirits.
00:23:10
red23
Anyway, where they kind of have just covered the ground of how humans don't respect humanity and the earth or whatever.
00:23:10
Jen
Hmm.
00:23:17
Jen
Yeah.
00:23:18
red23
And then the crew turns up with their weapons drawn, like, and he's like, oh my God, you know,
00:23:18
Jen
We've changed away.
00:23:22
Jen
Um.
00:23:24
red23
I've just been trying to explain that we've moved on from that.
00:23:27
Jen
Wow.
00:23:27
Jen
Yeah, I mean, it's just it's it's just one of the most genuine senses of frustration with a fellow Star Trek ah crew member that I think I've ever seen in a Star Trek sort of movie or indeed series. And I think, you know, it's very, very stark and clear to me from that perspective. So I absolutely understand the drivers. But I do feel like case in that moment, probably feels a lot less a crew um a crew member of Voyager than he did before this whole experience.
00:23:28
red23
Let's think this element of it.
00:24:04
Jen
I mean, I think.
00:24:05
red23
Yeah, I hit.
00:24:06
Jen
Oh,
00:24:07
red23
No, you go.
00:24:09
Jen
ah well I was going to say that. I mean, I think your explanation makes a lot of sense, and that's kind of what I was trying to get out of my brain, that kind of take on it. But I actually do know what you mean about. There is a like, I don't think you meant to play it this way, but like between him and the sky spirit, there is this like, sort of, or maybe it's just me reading too much of it. So and like arrogance, of like, you know we are above it all in your, you and your trivial phases.
00:24:33
red23
Wow.
00:24:38
Jen
um I have, I've got to say, I have met, without going into, you know, discussions about religion, I have met some religious people a bit little bit like that. i' say

Impact of Spiritual Experience on Chakotay

00:24:46
Jen
So it had that kind of, and like, perspective on it for me, which I think is quite funny.
00:24:47
red23
oh
00:24:52
Jen
here
00:24:53
red23
Yeah, that is interesting. I mean, i can he had he was probably like, after this experience, and it might be temporary, but the furthest he's been, you know, since well, since joining the crew, because he's kind of drawn to this other um side of himself. And some of that, I mean, I hadn't thought of the arrogance, but that makes sense. He carries that superior genetic element that they gifted 5,000 years ago.
00:25:16
Jen
well but yeah i do like so how like um I think that they kind of soften this in him a bit in later episodes because his when they bring out his sort of spiritual side in other episodes, I i noticed it's far more
00:25:20
red23
and
00:25:33
Jen
about um it's personal to him um and it's meaningful to him and so he follows it and he goes on these visions quests and he has his spirit animal we find out later and a medicine pack and all this stuff and then what happens is other members of the crew are genuinely interested and respectful and want to learn and they seek him out like Janeway asks him about a spirit animal and then he's more than happy to share but that's a nicer way of playing it I think it's more um it It makes you a bit more sort of empathetic with me, a bit more empathetic with Oceania.
00:26:04
Jen
Anyway, um it comes across less than like in this episode where it's almost like he's, um you know, he's a, is, is. Perverse entitlement. Yeah. Yeah. I can't think of.
00:26:18
red23
It kind of, I mean, while we're talking about it, maybe this is a ridiculous um kind of comparison, but it almost reminds me, I don't know if I've seen this on a teen film or like a some kind of, I'm seeing like, you know, like the when like a teenager or like group at school and somehow one kid is like, some are drawn to the popular kids and gets accepted by them. And then their old nerdy friends come try to rescue them from the cool kids.
00:26:43
Jen
Yeah.
00:26:44
red23
And then they're like, no, no, I'm fine. Like, leave me alone. like I don't want to hang out with you anymore.
00:26:47
Jen
if you think yes Oh, such a good analogy. I love that.
00:26:51
Jen
Yeah.
00:26:51
red23
this so
00:26:54
red23
There's something about like, I don't know those guys.
00:26:54
Jen
yeah
00:26:55
red23
I don't know why they're talking to me. Like, um...
00:26:57
Jen
Yeah, it's called that element, I think, absolutely of, and oh my god, those guys were getting their guns out. but Disgraceful. I don't know this.
00:27:04
red23
Yes.
00:27:05
Jen
I really like that take. yeah
00:27:08
red23
that's it ah So, yeah. But, yeah.
00:27:11
Jen
It would embarrass me in front of my new sky spirit friend. yeah We're like so zen, and you guys are like so non-zen. It's like, when you get down, I'm like, she... Arrogant, hippie, yo.
00:27:22
red23
Moo!
00:27:24
Jen
So it's like there's people, you go to yoga classes, and you find these individuals trying to be more yoga-ish than other people, like actively competing at the front of the class, you're like, I'm more spiritually fulfilled, and grateful, and sustained, and healthy, and vibrant, and well, than you. And I'm so, so not competitive about it. It's you that's competitive. I'm just too self-aware and self-actualized to do that. And more self-actualizing, it's sort of a little bit of that, maybe.
00:27:56
Jen
I don't know.
00:27:58
Jen
Yeah.
00:27:58
red23
It's kind of sad that someone would really think that way because you're like, well, you're so far from being happy.
00:28:02
Jen
Have you ever been to body yoga?
00:28:04
red23
No.
00:28:07
Jen
so
00:28:08
red23
I've mostly done yoga in the privacy and peace of my own home.
00:28:12
Jen
I have most studied the privacy and peace of my own toilet room. Toilet?
00:28:17
red23
whereas ah where Where I can
00:28:17
Jen
Toilet room, not inside the toilet bowl. Even I wouldn't fit there. should should
00:28:23
Jen
Yes.
00:28:23
red23
where I can scream at the yoga instructor on TV and swear.
00:28:26
red23
I'd be like, why do I have to hold this for so long? Which I don't think is acceptable.
00:28:29
Jen
Must be embarrassing when you forget to mute.
00:28:33
red23
No, it's just a video so that I follow along.
00:28:37
Jen
Anyway, right. I'm moving it along. I'm moving along red. I think it's you next for a discussion.
00:28:42
red23
Oh yes, so I was gonna say, I mean, just, ah we now have really discussed Chukote quite a lot, but I did like finding out why he has that tattoo because I don't think we, knew it and his father had that tattoo to honor the ancestors and then I think when his father died or at some point he got that tattoo to honor his father because he realized he'd kind of been probably a bit I'm
00:29:01
Jen
see Did his father actually get a tattoo though? Because it

Significance of Chakotay's Tattoo

00:29:05
Jen
looked more like marker pen when they were showing marker on him.
00:29:10
red23
not maybe that you know at that I mean I don't know but I think that was kind of the link um but um maybe I'm I'm wrong but I said I didn't pick up all details but he seemed that seems to be why he had that tattoo to honor his father
00:29:14
Jen
Ah, okay.
00:29:21
red23
I mean that's a pretty short one.
00:29:22
Jen
Got it. Got it.
00:29:23
red23
But did anyone else get a very Zoolander blue steel moment when he snuck into the cave?
00:29:24
Jen
Yeah.
00:29:29
red23
When he had like changed into that like kind of silky goldy suit and they dodged the lightning and then he like crouched one leg in front of the other and turned to look and I was like blue steel!
00:29:31
Jen
Yes. Yes. yeah ah ah The Chikoto School of Planetary Exploration for those who don't hippy good.
00:29:49
red23
Exactly, so I enjoyed that moment.
00:29:49
Jen
ah
00:29:53
Jen
I'm going to have to rewatch. I missed that one. I didn't see the blue steering.
00:29:56
red23
It's very small.
00:30:01
Jen
Oh, this is going to really bother me. I can't remember the name of the bad guy in Z-Lanter. Just prompted by what you said.
00:30:01
red23
um
00:30:08
red23
Oh, the wolf feral character.
00:30:12
Jen
Yeah.
00:30:12
red23
I guess I could use this browser right here.
00:30:17
Jen
yes
00:30:19
red23
I noticed Janie's using her browser while there.
00:30:19
Jen
Now I'm wondering,
00:30:23
Jen
themes. I'm just wondering whether Red, I feel like you have a lot of discussion points. do do are they Are there any you want to add to or shall we move on to themes?
00:30:35
red23
Oh, just two small ones, really, if I may.
00:30:39
Jen
Yeah. so for us
00:30:40
red23
and What? This is money. I haven't been asked. It's too long, too many articles. um I don't know why, but you know when they're hurtling towards the planet through the storm and the cyclone and everything? And then they've got impacts in 10 seconds and they're not going to make it. They're going to die. And everyone, I mean, they live on T-wax face. It's like, this is it. Jane's white space.
00:31:04
Jen
Oh, that's good.
00:31:04
red23
This is it. And then the storm abruptly stops and they're all like ready to die.
00:31:09
Jen
Hmm.
00:31:11
red23
And then the first thing anyone comments on, now that the panic is over, is the weather. But Harry Kim was like, Just blue skies ahead. It's like you guys just already died. And that was quite quite a switch. But I guess they face death quite often. so but I mean, it's race it's kind of funny when you're already sucked into believing they could actually die, even though it's like, you know, there's no chance of that happening.
00:31:33
Jen
and
00:31:36
red23
It's like that would never happen on Star Trek.
00:31:36
Jen
yeah on yeah
00:31:39
red23
But in that moment, I was like, oh my God, they might not make it.
00:31:39
Jen
It
00:31:42
red23
Even though...
00:31:44
Jen
actually cut through.
00:31:44
red23
and um And final, final point is, only towards the end, when you're watching that scene Mr. Cote and this, um the alien, or this guy, God, I was like, wait a minute, I know that actor, I know that actor, I know that actor, but I have to look it up. And it's Mr. Lipman from a Seinfeld, ah the publishing boss of Elaine.
00:32:05
Jen
and
00:32:07
Jen
What?
00:32:10
red23
So I was like, no ways.
00:32:10
Jen
Amazing!
00:32:12
red23
Yeah, so just have to throw that in.
00:32:13
Jen
Great sport, that's an amazing sport Red. Yeah, especially with all his aesthetics on.
00:32:17
red23
I mean, I didn't, no, I mean, I didn't, I had to look up, but I was like, I do know who, I do know that face, so I had to look it up. That and was informed by Google.
00:32:25
Jen
Oh my goodness, I do think he plays that character quite, I found him quite creepy, which I'm not sure was the intention, like I guess he's like a spiritual
00:32:32
red23
Yes, I agree.
00:32:37
Jen
um neither or something but you're only finding creepy because you're not spiritually fulfilled enough just like the rest of us do on Chicago day maybe i mean i i fully admit i'm not clearly not the kind of person too much to understand the question um he's
00:32:55
red23
What was that, Jamie?
00:32:59
Jen
asking me if i ever did a vision quest
00:33:02
red23
Yes. I mean, at first he kind of starts off creepy. And then I, I mean, towards the end I found him a bit menacing. I also was like, is he supposed to be menacing?
00:33:09
Jen
Yes.
00:33:12
Jen
Yeah.
00:33:12
red23
Oh, that was high.
00:33:13
red23
But yeah.
00:33:13
Jen
I have that thought as well. It's maybe it's intentional.
00:33:18
red23
no Okay.
00:33:20
Jen
Anyhoo. Onto themes. Onto themes. themes um So spirituality, of course. Tribalism. And, um you know, the clashing of cultures, you know, and identity. Chikote versus his dad when he's younger and then also like Starfleet versus the tribe, all those kinds of things for me. hi Can I also point out the fact that every time or very often there's a Chikote episode, a spirit quest gets mentioned. Yes.
00:33:51
red23
Yeah, but I think that is one of the purposes of his character is to drive some of the more spiritual side of things. and reflect that battle internally that he has, you know, between a scientific Starfleet.
00:34:02
Jen
Yeah. And I like the fact that once Yeah, for once in the Star Trek series, they don't pass that task out to a Vulcan either.
00:34:11
red23
Ah, yes, yeah, that's true.
00:34:14
Jen
Why don't they pass it to a Vulcan? Because they can mind meld. Oh, that's not spiritual though, is it? Well...
00:34:21
red23
But they are quite, aren't they quite, don't they do like meditation and, uh, you know, like they do have a spiritual element to them. I think sometimes wish.
00:34:28
Jen
That's true, yeah. The meditation. I've forgotten that. A very calming voice as well. But I always thought the new decision was more connected to that, what's the word, when you can telepathy? Psychic, this. Yeah, something like that. like Psychic power.
00:34:50
red23
that
00:34:51
Jen
but What are the themes? Anyone? Anyone?
00:34:53
Jen
ah
00:34:53
red23
Well, i'm and this is not really a theme, but I'm going to say coincidence because of the giant coincidence.
00:34:57
Jen
Yes. Yes, where is Q? i Yeah, I mean, I feel like the the scientist in me is desperate for an explanation as to what in all the mad universe in and within the Delta Quadrant and all the millions of planets that they happen to pass or go close to this one, specific one where the sky spirits live.
00:35:04
red23
um
00:35:20
Jen
ah Like, i'm I'm just going to invent a little backstory in my head where, in fact, something within Chiquote is drawn, drawing by a voyager there. um Or maybe the sky spirits are drawing water there because they can feel Jikoti's spiritual presence. I'm just going to create this little backstory in my head so it all makes sense. yeah
00:35:39
red23
That's hilarious that you're creating your own backstory for another character on TV.
00:35:39
Jen
i think
00:35:44
red23
cause i'm mean actors and I'm sure the actor to go to oh but i say probably to create a very... You'd probably be like, why is this happening? This is too much of a coincidence and probably had to create his own backstory.
00:35:53
Jen
we We are all vastly overcomplicating this. There is one universal Star Trek Force. that has even been mentioned overtly that is clearly, clearly the architect of all of this from the sort of Shikoshi's career to ah frankly, the fact that these aliens came to Earth all that time ago and made friends with Shikoshi's grandparents. And that force is Sulu.
00:36:19
red23
Oh yes! Sulu! I had that as a note but I didn't get to it.
00:36:23
Jen
ah
00:36:24
Jen
Oh, Sulu.
00:36:24
red23
Now, do you think, was that the Sulu from the original series?
00:36:29
red23
Did they overlap or do you think it was the descendant of Sulu? I don't know.
00:36:33
Jen
I think it was the original.
00:36:34
red23
Yeah, that was my first thought. I think they do overlap actually.
00:36:38
Jen
I mean, i I for some reason feel the need to go around chanting Sulu is immortal. Sulu is immortal.
00:36:45
red23
Okay.
00:36:46
Jen
I suspect this wouldn't add to my case. I'm not sure I get the reference.
00:36:50
red23
um I think he just made that up, but I also wasn't sure.
00:36:51
Jen
Is it from original sources? No, I just thought it was hilarious.
00:36:56
Jen
A random time there's at least 20% of chance I'm going around chanting X is immortal, X is immortal, Y is our leader. I mean, that's just 20% of my day.
00:37:08
red23
Is this
00:37:09
Jen
And, you know, I hold down a full time job and I'm allegedly a mature adult.
00:37:13
Jen
and
00:37:13
red23
a school chant or like a sports day chant or something?
00:37:16
red23
Or did you just make it up?
00:37:17
Jen
I just made it up. But it sounds like both of those, doesn't it?
00:37:19
red23
Okay. It does. I think you've missed your calling, Jamie.
00:37:24
Jen
You know, um you could say anything to that sort of rhythm, like, free hot dogs for Bueller, free hot dogs for Bueller. And it sort of sounds that way. So I think that should be my theme. Okay, now the challenges.
00:37:36
red23
Okay. ah oh I have one more theme that I did actually write write
00:37:39
Jen
Yeah.

Alien Visitations and Sci-Fi Themes

00:37:40
red23
down. So, but I kind of laughed because when I saw your comments in the notes, but so many questions,
00:37:43
Jen
like
00:37:47
red23
The thing that popped into my head was the truth is out there from the X-Files.
00:37:51
Jen
the
00:37:52
red23
I don't know why.
00:37:53
Jen
should yeah Yeah, I mean, I've got to say, ah like,
00:37:55
red23
All these crazy coincidences, but the truth is out there.
00:38:01
Jen
that whole coincidence is, um and then there being like an actual backstory to explain the war. I just think I absolutely love this. I mean, God, it's not even in this, I think it's in next gen, but there's this whole, um this whole episode where I guess Picard goes off on some kind of like archaeological quest. And at the end of it, the cut a long story short, it basically exclaims why Throughout Star Trek episodes, all series, um the majority of the aliens they encounter are like ah human weight and they actually vaguely look like humans, even with weird ears and extra bits of skin stuck on.
00:38:40
red23
Ah! Ah!
00:38:46
Jen
And they like actually came up with an electrical reason why that was the case.
00:38:50
red23
Oh, that's cool.
00:38:50
Jen
And I love that.
00:38:52
red23
That's cool.
00:38:53
Jen
so
00:38:56
Jen
There's such a good idea.
00:38:57
red23
Ah, I can't...
00:38:57
Jen
Because obviously the real reason is because, you know, they were the actors. How do you act something with 12 legs?
00:39:01
red23
They
00:39:03
Jen
Yes, exactly.
00:39:05
red23
have to cost humanoids. What are humans?
00:39:07
Jen
Exactly.
00:39:08
Jen
Which I think is pretty racist, frankly, and they should be ashamed. But, you know, it was a different time. people It was a different time.
00:39:08
red23
Oh!
00:39:17
red23
I need to find that episode.
00:39:18
Jen
and So if we are done with themes, it's time for Star Player. Which I got to be honest, I have not thought about, so I'm going to need a minute.
00:39:29
red23
OK,

Chakotay as the Star Player

00:39:30
red23
well, I am happy to go, but I think in this case I'm going to go for the most evident option, I would say. Chakotay.
00:39:40
Jen
Oh, really?
00:39:41
red23
Well, maybe that's not the worst ever option.
00:39:44
Jen
That's interesting.
00:39:47
red23
But I think he deserves it. He doesn't always have a starring role. Sometimes there's a few episodes where he really doesn't pee so much.
00:39:55
Jen
and
00:39:56
red23
So good to see him out there. And as I said, I did like hearing, you know, finding out more about his backstory.
00:40:03
Jen
and
00:40:05
red23
And I like the blue still. So what can I say to Kote?
00:40:07
Jen
ah
00:40:09
Jen
yeah Well, someone had to like to choose him. i Do you know what? I've got my note.
00:40:16
red23
Oh, I know what you're going to say.
00:40:18
Jen
Well, here's the thing. Because I will hardly ever choose her. In general, we're not a massive fan of her character. um I think that I have to take the opportunity to choose Kess, based not on the actress, actually, but on actual Kess character, because I really enjoyed her choice to extend the Doctor's illness than there was most coming.
00:40:33
red23
Yeah.
00:40:39
red23
So surprisingly devious, like so surprisingly devious.
00:40:43
Jen
Yeah.
00:40:46
Jen
That's a good choice.
00:40:48
red23
Very good choice.
00:40:48
Jen
ah may i May I exchange my star player for a pre-Madonna of the episode award?
00:40:55
red23
I think you can give someone a star player for being a prima donna.
00:40:55
Jen
Yeah.
00:40:59
Jen
yeah um I'm calling it what I called it. um So it has to go to the doctor for disrupting a possibly emergency rescue mission to get the captain to send someone to heal his one hour long extra cold. And is it is a cold.
00:41:19
red23
Yes, I mean...
00:41:20
Jen
I think that's a great preview of the honouring. Yeah. And you know, I think, I think Jane may get a special mention because ah in that scenario, she could have very easily just been like, well, you know, era shit shut the view screen off, just bugger off.
00:41:34
red23
She does, she
00:41:34
Jen
Are you insane? I'm not listening to this nonsense while we've got a crisis situation. But in fact, she actually sends one of the, one of the bridge officers, Carrie, down to deal with it. Like, bless her.
00:41:47
red23
takes it seriously.
00:41:48
Jen
and I think that constitutes poor leadership and a faulty allegation of resources and delegation.
00:41:59
red23
And on that note, Jamie...
00:42:01
Jen
and I think Harry Kim was needed on the bridge.
00:42:06
red23
Janeway is immortal.
00:42:06
Jen
ah womans opinion cutting it you're getting it Harry should have been on the bridge.
00:42:07
red23
Janeway is immortal. anyway Is that how it goes?
00:42:14
Jen
Harry should have been on the bridge.
00:42:15
red23
Oh wow, this is way too flexible. like you can Oh Great.
00:42:21
Jen
This is the one for the sports crowd.
00:42:25
red23
Oh wow, this was a very quick episode. Any final thoughts before I play our Jingle?
00:42:30
Jen
I only thought i'm i'm I'm moving forward to the next one. I think this wasn't...
00:42:35
red23
Do you know what the next one is by any chance?
00:42:38
Jen
No, so maybe...
00:42:39
red23
Okay. No, it's just...
00:42:40
Jen
I'm jinxing it. may end with one final chunt
00:42:46
red23
Yes.
00:42:47
Jen
felix is a bad tra nelix is a bad
00:42:51
red23
Let's experiment. Let's play the jingle and then you sing a along. I don't know what was going to happen, but let's try.
00:42:55
Jen
no
00:42:56
red23
I can always edit it out.
00:42:56
Jen
like okay
00:42:58
red23
how Oh. Oh, this is very. Oh yes, this is the slow paced one. Can you sing along?
00:43:07
Jen
okay Neelix is a bear trap is a bear trap bear trap
00:43:14
red23
Thanks, Debbie. Thanks, Debbie. Bye.