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We watch "Cold Fire" (S2 Ep.10)
12 Plays6 months ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
New format, same old show!
This week we are watching "Cold Fire" in which Red gets confused and interrupts her friends, but doesn’t derail the podcast completely.
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at [email protected].
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Celebration
00:00:04
red23
Yes, I think that correctly sums up how I feel.
00:00:08
red23
Welcome back guys and business to Jamie's Children. um Oh, this is our, I've forgotten, 26th episode.
00:00:11
El Platypo
oh
Star Trek Voyager Discussion: Insights and Humor
00:00:16
red23
We're discussing Cold Fire season two, episode 10.
00:00:22
red23
Jamie and Jenny. Anything you want to say before Jamie gives his one minute summary?
00:00:27
El Platypo
I'm in brutal silence. My wife has put her hands up, as though someone has pulled the camera down.
00:00:29
Jen
You
00:00:30
red23
Okay.
00:00:34
El Platypo
We do not like being put on the spot over here.
00:00:35
Jen
You
00:00:36
red23
yeah This is an audio medium.
00:00:38
El Platypo
um And I suppose we is an appropriate thing to say given this sort of episode encompasses a psychic collective.
00:00:41
red23
No, okay.
00:00:43
red23
As I said.
00:00:51
red23
Yes, imagine if we could just do the podcast psychic and tell it perfectly.
00:00:53
El Platypo
I mean, yeah. No. Do you want me to do the one minute summary? I haven't prepared this at all.
00:00:57
red23
Chaos would ensue.
00:01:02
red23
Yes, please. No, you never
Voyager Episode Summary: Psychic Colony Encounter
00:01:04
red23
do, I believe. I never got the impression that you prepared, so that's not unexpected.
00:01:04
El Platypo
I mean, what are one's friends for if not to say the most hurtful things? And maybe that's a reflection on the findings of this episode, in which the intrepid crew of the Voyager encounter a colony of psychic occupants with whom they use Kez and as an intermediary, finding on their travels that this colony has
00:01:13
red23
but
00:01:16
red23
But... Okay.
00:01:31
El Platypo
progressed beyond the typical lifespan of an accompanine and indeed the psychic powers that the accompanines on Kez's planets thought were possible. They also discover that they have been in touch with the companion of the caretaker and the crew attempt to track her down and get her to help them go home. As ever with Star Trek Voyager, it's never that straightforward and we discover on the way that somehow a rumor has spread that Voyager and her crew murdered the caretaker and indeed are a violent bunch of bloodthirsty savages, something which will go on to have unforeseen ramifications this episode. And I'll say no more.
One Cool Thing Segment & Actor Comparisons
00:02:20
red23
Well, Jamie, I know I always make fun of you for not preparing, but I'm always so impressed with your one-minute suffering. So I think you covered all the important points there.
00:02:26
Jen
Bye.
00:02:29
red23
Thank you. Very much. Um, I think someone has a one cool thing. I see it in the notes. So we this is kind of a, an ad hoc section that we do, whether that we have something cool or not. Um, go for it.
00:02:37
El Platypo
I mean, I have a thing, I have a thing, and I'm bouncing up and I don't know what to say to the thing, and part of it is because I'm incredibly geeky, but I think... and this resulted in something on my part, that the actor who played Tannis, the Occumpan who tries to tutor Kess in the art of the occult and convince her to join the Occumpan colony, is played by the same individual who played both Elrond in Lord of the Rings and Agent Smith in The Matrix, leading to me correctly or incorrectly mentally referring to him as Agent Elrond in my head throughout
00:03:18
red23
Well, if that's Hugo what you think that would be cool. Did you but did you try Googling this theory?
00:03:19
El Platypo
I much prefer the fantasy to the possible reality.
00:03:28
red23
And the less I say about men the better. Okay.
00:03:28
El Platypo
Hey, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:03:31
El Platypo
Rude pills.
00:03:33
El Platypo
Can I play the the the sexism card? ah but Red thinks that men prefer fantasy to reality.
00:03:34
red23
yeah
00:03:37
red23
And I just like your confidence in your...
00:03:43
El Platypo
Red says, I, on the other hand, can't believe that that sort of thing would be voiced on this podcast.
00:03:47
red23
No.
Humor and Internet Woes
00:03:49
El Platypo
i' Sorry, I don't know quite why, but you made me laugh there quite a lot.
00:03:53
Jen
Thank you.
00:03:54
El Platypo
um I think we should look up. Does someone have like an internet connection that actually, you know, isn't going to crash their podcast connection?
00:03:58
red23
Oh, good.
00:04:04
red23
Well, as I said, I'm on the brink of for charging all my tabs, but let me, his name is Hugo Weaving, I think. So let's just see if he was ever in Star Trek.
00:04:10
El Platypo
Is it actually Asian Elrond?
00:04:20
El Platypo
A bit.
00:04:22
red23
It does look a bit like him, but it's not coming up.
00:04:26
El Platypo
Ah,
00:04:26
red23
Okay, sorry.
00:04:26
Jen
I'm just.
00:04:28
red23
Oh, you know what? I did see who this guest actor was when I looked up his name, but I don't...
00:04:34
red23
Let me see. Wikipedia has changed his formats and it's harder to get through to the list of episodes.
00:04:37
El Platypo
it's devastating.
00:04:41
Jen
Oh, it's it's Gary. I've just found it's Gary Graham.
00:04:42
El Platypo
Ooh.
00:04:46
red23
Gary Graham.
00:04:48
Jen
With a career spanning five decades. Let's see what else he's been in.
00:04:53
red23
But you could probably do one of those, you know, separated in both comparisons of him and Hugo weaving.
00:04:54
El Platypo
Oh, what is Hugo Weaving the guy who does Agent Smith?
00:05:00
Jen
I mean, if they, yeah.
00:05:02
El Platypo
That's so disappointing.
00:05:04
red23
Yeah, Agent Elrond.
00:05:05
El Platypo
Unbelievably disappointing.
00:05:08
Jen
They, they look so, I do agree though Jay, they, they do look really similar.
00:05:10
El Platypo
And they act pretty simply.
00:05:12
El Platypo
There's masses and masses
Horror Elements and Special Effects
00:05:14
El Platypo
of Agent Smith in the way that Tannis behaves throughout this episode.
00:05:14
red23
Yeah, I...
00:05:17
red23
Yes, yes.
00:05:19
El Platypo
um Which, who knows? I believe it was shot before The Matrix. It might have inspired it.
00:05:30
red23
I'm sure Garrett Wong would like to hear that, as I think I've mentioned before. a
00:05:32
El Platypo
How do people from Star Trek feel about The Matrix and that franchise?
00:05:37
red23
um
00:05:42
red23
I'm sure they love it. Well, I'm assuming because I love Star Trek and I love The Matrix. that's so well Very nice.
00:05:44
El Platypo
Fair enough. Right, that that was the one cool thing. ah
00:05:53
red23
Well, okay, so we're gonna kind of zip through our, oh I don't want to call it feedback. That sounds like a very terrible consulting work to have to use.
00:05:58
El Platypo
Yes. Yeah.
00:06:02
red23
Um, but we have a deadline of nine for various reasons. Uh, so I'll be facilitating this evening, going around, um, probably go in the order of Jenny, Jamie than me.
00:06:03
El Platypo
yeah
00:06:13
red23
And I'll try to keep track of my little note pad, but just giving Jenny some water. So Jenny, do you want to kick us off with your first, uh, favorite movement or talking point?
Tuvok's Wisdom and Mentorship
00:06:24
Jen
Yeah, absolutely. and Although i'm I'm still just dwelling on this likeness that I completely agree with, by the way. So Jay and I often have the situation where he says, that's so-and-so, and it is definitely not them. And it doesn't look anything like them. And yet, this one, this one, I really agree with. So I'm slightly disappointed that isn't actually Elrond, because I was about to be very excited by the one cool thing.
00:06:45
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:06:51
Jen
um But, you know,
00:06:52
red23
It would have been super cool.
00:06:53
Jen
It would have been super cool. And I even agree with the Agent Smith bit as well. They they all have a similar look. Anyway, moving on, moving on from this tragedy. um So, um yeah, I mean, I feel like, Red, you are definitely going to have this same but same note. um And it was an easy choice just for the end of the episode. I know I'm skipping a bit. It's good it's an easy choice for me, this one for Star Player. Because I just love certain someone's role in this episode.
00:07:23
Jen
ah Classic Tuvok moments that I absolutely love.
00:07:24
El Platypo
Mmhmm.
00:07:32
Jen
They're comic delivery, I think. There's the wisdom, and there's the comedy, and I just think all of his delivery of all of it is fabulous. So I'm loving just the phrases he says to Kez in response to her you know emotional outbursts and things. um So I'm loving that um he's got this just deadpan. Oh, when Ken says, Oh, I'm, I don't know whether to be excited or afraid. And he just has this deadpan, a non emotional response would be more useful.
00:07:58
El Platypo
and
00:07:59
El Platypo
but
00:08:03
red23
I loved it.
00:08:04
Jen
It's just brilliant. And then I just love the fact that she has a little laugh and he says, I will teach you to control these emotional outbursts.
00:08:06
El Platypo
Yeah, I'll control your laughter, young one.
00:08:10
El Platypo
I do love the fact that he tries to shut her down.
00:08:13
Jen
and
00:08:14
Jen
I just I mean, I can't
00:08:15
El Platypo
And then the captain shuts him down.
00:08:21
red23
Oh, yeah, that was good. ah yeah I mean, I totally agree, Jenny, but I think we interrupted you there. So anything else you want to add?
00:08:30
Jen
Oh, um, no, I was, um, I was just trying to work out what when, uh, when the captain shot, he walked down, but, um, well, no, I was going to say the other bit I love is just like, I think we'll come onto it. I'm skipping ahead again, but the whole.
00:08:41
red23
That's fine. You can wrap it all up if it's about two bucks.
00:08:45
Jen
Oh, excellent. It is about the rock. Um, just like the, the wisdom towards the end, do not fear your negative thoughts to pretend they do not exist as to create an opportunity for them to escape I love that.
00:08:58
red23
Yeah.
00:08:59
Jen
It's just so wise. And you know, it's one of these things I sort of think I'll mentally jot that down. It's something to remember.
00:09:02
El Platypo
Mm.
00:09:05
red23
It what?
00:09:07
red23
Yes.
00:09:10
red23
Um... ah Yeah, he was really good. And I think ah if I may add to kind of what you said, if you're done um ah with the comedy, there was that one, but I mean, he had his like, deadpan delivery of these lines, as you mentioned, which was so funny. But then there was that moment where, um you know, Kez has been offered to be tutored in her ah psychic abilities by this new accompaniment. And she has been going to TÜVOC for her training. And so this guy's like, They're all around the dinner table. This guy says to Kes, like, you know, maybe I can help you.
00:09:43
red23
And she's like, I'd be great to Tuvok. But yeah, you know, if you can get me any pointers, that would be good. And he's like, well, maybe later tonight. So you expect like Neelix, who's sort of there, to get jealous.
00:09:47
El Platypo
Yes.
00:09:48
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:09:51
red23
And obviously he looks jealous, but Tuvok also looks a bit put out.
00:09:53
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:09:55
red23
They kind of like, for once, have put in the same like box together.
00:09:58
El Platypo
okay
00:09:59
red23
They both like, oh, what's going on? Which I really enjoyed.
00:10:04
red23
um And ah in terms of the wisdom, I also think, I think a wrote down the one line, I think you said maybe towards, or in that moment that you also said, Jennie, which was without the darkness, how would we recognize the light? Which I also really liked.
00:10:18
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:10:19
red23
So, you know, always happy when two buckets left.
00:10:22
El Platypo
Well, I mean, my top moment if we're doing that actually is sort of a moment that's quite close to this in which I don't know if the, and I've put it down as ah this is not a teachable moment ah in which after Kez accidentally fries Tuvok from the inside out with mind bullets to quote Tenacious D. um he he wakes up and goes like I'm so sorry and goes ah something along the lines of it would be better if you focused on controlling your emotions than on feeling guilt or regret which you may be feeling that is pointless and I just felt like to anyone but a Vulcan this is not a teachable moment um which I just
00:10:23
red23
Jamie, anything to add to Jennie's points?
00:11:12
El Platypo
I just like for some reason, I don't know why, it's related to the funny bit, but I also find it hilarious that after the whole two mockers, the one tutoring Kez, Kez is the one with, you know, the strong enough mind bullets to accidentally fry him from the inside out, and then break the hold of the caretaker, not caretaker, but Suspiria, and also Agent Elrond.
00:11:17
Jen
Thank you.
00:11:39
red23
Yeah, I mean, I have just to go back to that moment where she fries too far from the inside out, whatever.
00:11:44
El Platypo
That was scary.
00:11:46
red23
That was, or maybe that ties into, that was scary.
00:11:46
El Platypo
That was a full exorcist.
00:11:49
red23
That's all I want to say right now.
00:11:52
red23
That was scary. um So maybe i'll I'll tie that into my my first point next.
00:11:54
El Platypo
I'm just gonna have a haggle.
00:11:59
red23
But so Jenny, do you want anything to add? ah but
00:12:02
Jen
Yeah, I mean, the whole there were I was just going to add that there were quite a few horror elements for this one, weren't there?
00:12:07
red23
Yes, yes.
00:12:08
Jen
it wasn't ah Some of them were quite sort of classic cheesy, you know, like the whole little girl with the but the adult voice um who can control you and make you float above her head and all kinds of ah creepy, but also kind of a little bit cliche kind
00:12:12
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:12:13
red23
Yes.
00:12:17
El Platypo
And then,
Voyager Timeline and Horror Influences
00:12:27
Jen
of horror moments.
00:12:29
red23
Yes, I mean, that was one of my points, and I think I'll just fold it it wrap it into yours. But I haven't watched it a lot of horrors, so it took me a while to pick this up. But as I was watching, I was like, ah, this is clearly influenced by a horror movie, or they kind of the cliches of a horror movie.
00:12:35
El Platypo
The access system.
00:12:39
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:12:42
red23
that The, I mean, Tuvok's face when he's being fried on the inside, the little girl, like you said, the floating bodies later on when Janeway is lifted into the air by, the um by what's her name, Suspiria.
00:12:47
El Platypo
that was very important important
00:12:56
El Platypo
yeah I mean it's really bad but the bit where she sort of looks up and sees the body suspended it sort of reminds me of that scene in Harry Potter where ah we're given the view of the snake as it sort of ah sits in on Voldemort's council and there's just some random floating muggle there which probably took away from some of the drama of what would back then have been quite a shocking scene.
00:12:57
red23
I was like, oh, this I think is like a horror movie, but I haven't watched enough horror movies to really know.
00:13:23
red23
Yeah, probably.
00:13:24
Jen
Mmm.
00:13:25
red23
It was quite good special effects for Ben, I'm guessing. And it was like blood coming out of people's eyes. And it's really quite horrific at some points. I'm like, how did I watch this as a child and not have nightmares? Because I was very sensitive.
00:13:33
El Platypo
oh
00:13:36
El Platypo
So what's your moment? Give us the moment, give us the moment.
00:13:38
red23
um
00:13:41
red23
My moment, let me have a look here. So I i was kind of, no, that's not really a good one. um um
00:13:55
red23
Yeah. So one thing that like kind of blew my mind because time no longer makes sense to me anymore is that it's been 10 months. So beyond this journey, what did you guys think about that?
00:14:04
Jen
Oh my goodness, ah yeah I have i have comments many comments about the timeline because I have the same problem throughout like the whole ah whole show. Since some weird time warp, they say they've been there 10 months and and I think, well, I feel like they it feels like years, but then later on when they say they have actually been there in the Delta quadrant for years,
00:14:18
El Platypo
and hu Yeah.
00:14:24
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:14:30
Jen
it It feels like its those years have flown by. so And then it's constantly switching. so i i yeah i mean I guess they didn't want to focus too much on um you know how quickly they were getting home because the whole the whole show is about the journey, not the destination.
00:14:36
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:14:47
red23
but yeah
00:14:48
Jen
um But at the same time, I feel like it would have been a little bit helpful to have a few more references to how long. and But maybe that's just my like organizational type
00:14:52
El Platypo
yeah because like
00:15:00
El Platypo
I always could feel that like if they've only been there 10 months and the amount of stuff that has happened to them that has actually happened, they must be does anyone ever get a weekend to just chill out on Star Trek Voyager?
00:15:00
Jen
ah need.
00:15:09
red23
But,
00:15:12
El Platypo
like um How the hell did Tom Barras have enough time to, um you know, envisage and build Chais-en-Rene, the ah Parisian brothel that we all, you know, know and presumably don't mind?
00:15:14
red23
yeah. I don't think so, but I agree with your point for me.
00:15:34
red23
Yeah, it just didn't really make sense sense, and maybe some more periodic reminders of the time. Like you said, I think we're alluding to Jenny would help, but then also as you say, They don't know how long the series is going to last for. So they also kind of, well, how many seasons the show will have.
00:15:42
El Platypo
Hmm...
00:15:45
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:15:47
red23
So they might just be like, I don't know.
00:15:50
red23
Time seems a very flexible ah concept.
00:15:54
Jen
That's a good point.
00:15:57
red23
Um, okay. So that was mine. So back to you, Jenny. Um, oh yeah, we're messing around.
00:16:01
Jen
Oh, it's me again. Yes. Well, um, I just am going to like very briefly touch back on the love of Tuvok because actually Jamie mentioned a moment, another Tuvok moment.
00:16:10
red23
Oh.
00:16:14
Jen
Um, and I just have to basically agree with you that I really enjoyed that as well. It was, ah it was when him and Kes were talking about, um, how he'd, she basically yeah caused his eyeballs to bleed, but post that he's telling her how she shouldn't experience yeah she shouldn't feel guilt, but also he's very keen still to teach her and he'd like to be the one to teach her.
00:16:34
red23
Oh, yes.
00:16:35
Jen
um I just love that moment, you know, she's still um you know highly valued, I don't know, education and mentorship and it just makes me respect Tuvok even more.
00:16:36
red23
Yeah.
00:16:41
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:16:44
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:16:46
red23
And he's so.
00:16:47
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:16:49
red23
Yeah, I mean, I was also like, wow, if you screw up in the workplace, whatever.
00:16:53
red23
Well, I guess it depends where you work, but it's not often that someone's like, then they just like release you to the wolves.
00:16:56
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:17:00
red23
um Or, you know, to have that kind of tolerance. And she made a serious mistake. I mean, not intentionally, obviously, but she barely killed him. um
00:17:06
El Platypo
I blame Agent Elrond.
00:17:11
Jen
yeah
00:17:12
red23
Yes, well, it does turn out that he is amplifying, I guess, her abilities, but... emma
00:17:17
Jen
But I guess he also maybe feels like a sense of responsibility that um i guess I think hes he does actually sort of explain it in that
00:17:21
El Platypo
She can fry me, she can't be allowed out on the world, an unsuspecting world.
00:17:29
Jen
yeah Yeah, it is kind of like that, yeah, he's taking responsibility and I guess as a, if you're a teacher, I guess you sometimes maybe feel that sense of responsibility as well, like what are you teaching these people, kids or whatever, whatever capacity you're teaching, you know maybe adults, and how is that going to be used?
00:17:36
El Platypo
Hehehe.
00:17:48
Jen
um And I guess he feels like he needs to continue to keep.
00:17:52
red23
Also, I mean, it's tough just so happens. Oh, sorry, Jenny. I think I might cut yours a bit. ah It ties in with something that's been coming up for me. I mean, I think this periodically probably, but you know, when you're online or you're on Twitter or you're on any kind, I mean, I'm not blaming Twitter here, but it's just crazy how difficult it is for people to be objective. And and you just see like the same thing portrayed in like five different ways.
00:18:11
El Platypo
Thank
00:18:19
red23
And that way is through the lens of that person. no one is ever trying to put themselves in the shoes of someone else or trying to think why could this be happening or ought not never. And Tuvok is just does that naturally. He's he could have taken he could have been a fiercest kind of critic of cares not going forwards because he's the one that suffered that her you know mistake and yet he's still able to maintain a very maintain a very objective perspective but that's
00:18:27
El Platypo
you.
00:18:41
El Platypo
I just think if you can't teach people not to fry you from the inside out, you shouldn't be teaching them psychic power control.
00:18:45
Jen
yeah
Tuvok's Mentorship and Kes's Development
00:18:53
red23
That's a good t-shirt, Monza.
00:18:54
El Platypo
and
00:18:54
Jen
ah
00:18:55
red23
We should put that, yes, Jenny.
00:18:57
Jen
yeah well on that point yeah um i mean officially my other note was going to be about the um a little bit more about the sort of horror moments um because i mean i think they did really well with what they had but i've got to say i did find yeah yeah so
00:19:08
red23
So are you giving your other note now or are you saving it?
00:19:13
Jen
i i've got i just I was, you know, um prefacing it with um some positive, because it's a little bit negative, but I did find...
00:19:17
El Platypo
and
00:19:20
red23
Wait, Jenny, sorry, sorry.
00:19:22
red23
Oh, is this your second note? not your Okay, quite' got it, got it, got it.
00:19:27
Jen
Is that all right?
00:19:27
red23
Sorry, I thought your what you said previously was your next note, but you were just harking back to what Jamie said. Sorry, sorry. Please continue.
00:19:35
Jen
Well, we can move on. If I've done too many notes, i' I'm more than happy to hand over the talk.
00:19:35
El Platypo
No, you have not done. Do more notes. Do the notes. Do more of them. Do notes. Do them now.
00:19:47
red23
Yeah, go for it, go for it.
00:19:49
Jen
OK, well, I mean, I was just saying that the horror moments for me were a little bit um kind of. I don't know if it was the 90s, but I feel like 90s cringe kind of moments, um especially some of the sort of. ah I guess. Screenwriting like bring bring the fire kind of elements and some of the special effects as well, which I appreciate is probably more to do with the age
00:20:06
El Platypo
Yes.
00:20:18
Jen
time we're now watching it in. But yeah, I think it was one of these situations where ah I love the ideas of the episode, but the execution didn't quite follow through.
00:20:22
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:20:29
Jen
um But like I said, I might be just watching it through the prism of, you know, 2024 versus whenever the hell this was made.
00:20:39
red23
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, bring the fire. That line was very cheesy. Jamie, anything you want to add to on the the special effects or the cheesiness?
00:20:46
El Platypo
um I mean, that weirdly, this is my my next sexual note, but ah sort of I sort of was the reverse. like I get what Jenny was saying, but then I absolutely loved the moment at the end when Suspiria morphs from an adorable child into a weird alien centipede doom worm that can borrow through reality.
00:20:58
red23
Oh.
00:21:06
El Platypo
I thought that was just, I don't know, it was so OTT and tacky that it was actually amazing. So I get what Jenny was saying but when it went so far into that sort of continuum that like I just had to laugh, I really enjoyed it.
00:21:28
red23
That is so funny. I love having the different perspectives.
00:21:28
El Platypo
I mean, sometimes you gotta laugh.
00:21:29
El Platypo
You don't have to take it too seriously.
00:21:31
El Platypo
It's only Star Trek.
00:21:32
El Platypo
It's not like... It's not something where, you know, realism makes or breaks it. Like, you know, Dune, or Star Wars, or, you know, Garth Marenghi's dark place.
00:21:32
red23
Kind of goes back to it.
00:21:34
red23
Yeah.
00:21:36
red23
Not exactly.
00:21:48
Jen
Okay.
00:21:50
red23
Yeah, I forgot about that transformation at the end, but like I said earlier, I'm glad someone enjoyed it.
00:21:53
El Platypo
just sit Yes, we did.
00:21:57
El Platypo
Yes, we did.
00:21:59
red23
Um okay well I think it's back to me because I think that was your next point right Jamie?
00:22:03
El Platypo
That was me, yeah.
00:22:05
El Platypo
Speeding through. I mean, people don't seem to embrace the centipede dune worm as much as I am, which is disappointing, frankly, but I respect your right to a differing perspective as much as I'm embarrassed by it.
00:22:08
red23
Yeah um
00:22:23
red23
I, yeah, a point that really, I guess, stood out to me was, and you covered it in the summary, was when they found
Crew's Reputation and Humorous Exchanges
00:22:29
red23
out they were like referred to or known as the Ship of Death in the Delta Quadrant.
00:22:29
El Platypo
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:35
red23
Because I would be like, I really empathize with them at that moment because you must be like, am I going crazy? Are we the bad, are we the baddies?
00:22:39
El Platypo
does that
00:22:40
El Platypo
Classic Michelin web sketch.
00:22:43
red23
You know, like, uh, yeah, well, I mean, yeah.
00:22:48
red23
And, um, to be so misconstrued or so misunderstood, Um.
00:22:50
El Platypo
I have to ask the question, how on earth has that happened?
00:22:59
Jen
Well, they do explain it quite well, actually, I thought. like When they add up all the things, like, because they've misunderstood that the caretaker died of natural causes and they think Voyager killed him.
00:23:02
red23
Yeah, but wait. Yeah.
00:23:11
Jen
um And then there's all the terrible things that, you know, like you said, Jay, that they never have a down weekend. but it's All these disasters happen in the vicinity. I mean, you would start to question whether it was just coincidence, I think.
00:23:17
El Platypo
yeah
00:23:19
El Platypo
shit I mean, the the equivalent of the Delta Quadrant, you know, newspapers like The Sun might start to go, no smoke without fire.
00:23:34
Jen
Yeah.
00:23:34
red23
Jamie, I believe this is an example of one of your favorite terms, gaslighting. I can't believe you have reported up on this episode.
00:23:39
El Platypo
It's not one of my... You make me sound like I'm and um i'm an enormous gas lighter, what the hell?
00:23:47
El Platypo
Not one of my favourite activities, oh yeah, I know. thought That was, you know, dog whistle sexism right there, right?
00:23:47
red23
No! What are your favorite terms? That doesn't make you a gaslighter.
00:23:58
El Platypo
I'm just winding you up, sorry.
00:23:58
red23
I honestly don't know what dog whistle means, and it's but that phrase really annoys me.
00:24:03
red23
Oh, no, no, no, no. I mean, as an aside, it's like, what has this even been? Why do people just start using phrases and act as if everyone's been using this for like 100 years?
00:24:08
El Platypo
Yeah, I mean it's like Scaffoldifferentiation, which we all know what it is obviously.
00:24:17
red23
It's exactly like that.
00:24:17
El Platypo
I love the fact you think that that's actually a term as opposed to something I made up now just to sort of encapsulate the phenomenon.
00:24:17
Jen
What on earth?
00:24:21
Jen
What is that?
00:24:26
Jen
Oh, it's a great... Oh, I think you should...
00:24:28
red23
Well, I saw you look out the window, see a scaffold, and then come back and say something, so I was like, wait, what?
00:24:30
El Platypo
It's a bit of a mix between i I spy and can I make this plausible and does this sound about right?
00:24:37
El Platypo
but it's a scaffold differentialism.
00:24:41
red23
That's you.
00:24:43
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:24:44
Jen
I think that's a great term. You should create a meaning for it.
00:24:44
El Platypo
Okay. I mean, maybe maybe we could invite some thoughts from you know our listeners. what What in your view does scaffold differentialism mean in the same argot of lexi argot lexicon of terms like dog whistle and things like that?
00:24:47
Jen
and then you know
00:24:56
Jen
listen
00:25:00
El Platypo
I feel like it means you construct a meaning
00:25:04
El Platypo
onto what someone says that's beyond what they actually mean to try and make them seem extreme and discredit them in much the same way that, you know, people try and say about folk who just want to, you know, reduce carbon dioxide, they say they want to take your cars away from you and things like that.
00:25:07
Jen
And
00:25:12
Jen
then, you know.
00:25:25
El Platypo
So that to me is scaffold differentialism.
00:25:32
El Platypo
Oh, for fuck's sake.
00:25:32
Jen
Oh, I think there's already a term for that though, isn't that like, there's a Latin absurdum, something reductum.
00:25:35
El Platypo
reductio ad absurdum right yeah
00:25:37
red23
I didn't want to tell him, Jenny.
00:25:45
Jen
That's the one. Sorry, Jay, you're going to have to come up with something else.
00:25:55
red23
I just want to say it's so strange that Jenny has this delay, yet we don't miss anything, and it doesn't delay us. It's a very strange little delay. that kind of seems to i
00:26:02
El Platypo
Well, I sort of hear her downstairs so I know not to start talking and then I hear her perfectly sort of here and then it sort of makes sense.
00:26:09
red23
Oh, brilliant.
00:26:12
El Platypo
And I don't really hear words, I just sort of hear a little buzz through the floor.
00:26:15
red23
Oh, that's.
00:26:20
red23
That's very handy. OK, so.
00:26:22
Jen
That is very clever. wait i just I just like to add that um this problem will be rectified at some point. It's just currently the ah temporary situation.
00:26:32
red23
Oh, don't worry, I'm sure you'll have speedy internet in your new home soon, if I may say that. I'll give it getting way way too much. ah Yeah, so I felt bad for them when they found out they were the baddies. But yeah, that's my my point.
00:26:41
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:26:44
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:26:46
red23
So back ti round to you, Jenny.
Character Dynamics and Leadership
00:26:49
Jen
Oh, well. I mean, I think that was really, first of all, I just think that was a great note, Red, because i I did almost jot that down as well. I just, how frustrating for them. I do, I empathise.
00:26:54
El Platypo
This.
00:27:00
Jen
I can imagine how they, you know, they have these high-minded ideals and principles and then ah just they try so hard to uphold them and yet they aren't known as the ship of death.
00:27:11
El Platypo
Hehehe.
00:27:13
red23
They're still failing. Yeah, shame.
00:27:14
Jen
They're still failing.
00:27:16
red23
Exactly.
00:27:16
Jen
That's just life, isn't it? But anyway, ah What did I put for my my other one? i I feel like this is really minor. But um there were all these episodes earlier on about Neelix's jealousy and how to learn to manage his jealousy. And um what I find really funny about this episode is that it's almost as if he's gone too far the other way. So he's got this actually ah this guy spending a lot of time with Kes, tutoring her, mentoring her.
00:27:44
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:27:50
Jen
um getting up to getting her to like open up her her mind to him and this is a guy they've just met um that no one knows if he's malicious and he turns out in fact he is malicious and in fact he's in league with someone who wants to destroy the entire ship um and meanwhile this guy is doing these quite really quite rude things like he sort of in Neelix at one point interrupts to say oh well done kiss you're doing really well and he he holds his hand up to silence him you know he's quite um
00:28:12
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:28:16
El Platypo
ah so
00:28:20
Jen
and ah also kind of clearly quite suspicious, this this guy, Tannis.
00:28:25
Jen
And the whole time Nelix is just like, well done, Cassius, well done. Oh, you want to do more lessons? Of course, no problem, my dear. It's like super passive. And I just think it's quite funny.
00:28:32
El Platypo
I really liked him this episode.
00:28:35
El Platypo
I really liked him this episode.
00:28:39
Jen
Yeah, I mean, it is endearing.
00:28:42
Jen
um I just think that massive U-turn is hilarious.
00:28:43
El Platypo
man
00:28:46
El Platypo
I was going to say, maybe he's done learned from his being, you know, a jealous creep.
00:28:46
red23
I think, well, Jamie, what do you want to say?
00:28:49
red23
Sorry.
00:28:55
Jen
Thank
00:28:57
red23
I think it is an element of that. I think, yes, he, um I think we just saw a flash of his concern in that scene I mentioned, and then he was like there observing her lesson, but he did seem pretty, considering the scene in the hydroponics bay where he really, it felt a little bit,
00:29:01
Jen
you.
00:29:12
El Platypo
Weirdly second.
00:29:14
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:29:16
red23
Like, sure. Yeah.
00:29:19
red23
ah right but um But I was also thinking, I mean, she's like connecting with, they never thought you'd see another accompaniment in this like concept of identity. And people, I think, get a lot of, I don't want to say leeway, but people put all of stock in identity and connecting with you or whatever. So maybe that was an element as well. But yeah, so you went from being very quite the jealous type.
00:29:36
El Platypo
it It could be just the ultimate burn for Agent Elrond that, unlike Tom Paris, nearly didn't consider him good-looking enough to be a threat. Which, you know, but let's be honest, Agent Elrond was fucking sinister. um And maybe he just has faith that Kez wouldn't be into sinister.
00:29:59
El Platypo
Yes.
00:29:59
Jen
What are you saying Agent Elrond?
00:30:01
El Platypo
He is an Agent Smith or Elrond, but Agent Elrond, I am not saying something that rhymes with that.
00:30:03
red23
Yes.
00:30:04
Jen
Okay, right.
00:30:09
Jen
Okay, yeah I understand.
00:30:10
El Platypo
That would just be, you know, weird and semi-racist.
00:30:19
Jen
ah
00:30:20
red23
Well, Genji, I don't know. I can't really remember, but I wonder if this is the last we ever see, if he's completed his jealousy arc with this episode, or if it comes back. I can't remember.
00:30:29
El Platypo
I mean it does lead to some fantastic narratives and some ridiculous situations.
00:30:36
El Platypo
And indeed some ridiculous dishes of food.
00:30:40
red23
um
00:30:43
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:30:44
red23
Yeah, I think I can't remember. We'll have to wait at sea.
00:30:50
red23
Anything else before we move on, Jenny, about his U-turn? Otherwise we can go to Jamie for his next one.
00:30:57
Jen
No, i kept it I kept it quite light. i so I stuck to three this week, but then I did actually have a quick um glance at some other people's very comprehensive notes and
00:31:01
red23
That's fine.
00:31:02
El Platypo
this
00:31:09
Jen
There were some very interesting points there, so I'm looking forward to you guys. so
00:31:12
red23
Well, I think I'm going to be in control of mine. But Jamie, you're up.
00:31:13
El Platypo
I am. um so i After all of this ridiculousness and all of this saying it's like a bad 80s horror movie, I think we need to go back to the values that make Star Trek and Star Trek Voyager the absolute embodiment of a classy outfit. I thought Janeway releasing the alien who suspended all her crew upside down so the bleeding from the ceiling was doing the same to her in a sort of Darth Vader style murder move.
00:31:41
red23
to
00:31:42
El Platypo
Once she demonstrated that, you know, they weren't going to be at her mercy, her releasing that alien was just the embodiment of merciful grace in leadership.
00:31:54
El Platypo
Don't make any sense whatsoever.
00:31:58
red23
That sounded lovely.
00:32:00
red23
Yes, sorry. The reason why I have stunned it into silence is because my headphones were on and decided to turn themselves off. So I'm not sure what you said, but I'll hear it in the episode. but and Sorry.
00:32:07
El Platypo
Yeah, genuine land of the alien go that just tried to kill them because you know they proved they're not going to harm it was glass. That summarized.
00:32:17
red23
Yes. pretty Proving they weren't the ship of death, after all, hopefully.
00:32:18
El Platypo
Or just really good at gas lighting.
00:32:22
Jen
Yeah.
00:32:23
El Platypo
We can. oh No, no, that that's, that was gonna be something absolutely dreadful. So I'm not going to say that.
00:32:32
El Platypo
How
00:32:33
red23
Well, yeah, Jenny, what did you think about Janeway this episode?
00:32:40
Jen
Yeah, I mean, I'm actually quite shocked that I didn't pick, really, that that moment didn't stick with me to add to my list of, you know, interesting notes about this episode because it is, like you're right, it's classic Janeway, you know, she's, she's risking herself and the crew to, um I guess, show ah show, show mercy isn't probably quite the right word, but um she's trying to do something about that reputation of voyages. um and she's letting the Suspiria that wants to potentially harm the crew go. um I mean, I think Jamie said it much better than me, but it is a brilliant classic Jamie moment, I agree.
00:33:20
El Platypo
And I have feelings about sentiments being expressed to right now, which I've put in the chat.
00:33:32
red23
Jenny, would you like to read Jamie's chat for the people who can't see the screen?
00:33:37
Jen
Yeah, I mean,
00:33:38
red23
It's quite fun.
00:33:38
Jen
I am shocked. It's a good point. There's an embarrassing lack of Janeway appreciation here. I mean, yeah, I don't know what's going on. Usually I'm always, I'm always.
00:33:43
El Platypo
Hang on. i've been missed I've been misquoted. I've been misquoted.
00:33:48
El Platypo
i I said there's an embarrassing lack of Janeway appreciation here. Folks. All the difference.
00:33:52
red23
Your turn, Jamie.
00:33:56
El Platypo
For some reason that just makes it sound less serious.
00:33:58
Jen
Folks. Folks.
00:34:00
red23
a
00:34:01
Jen
Yeah. But you know, I think this is a good thing because otherwise it would just be the Janeway show and I feel like
00:34:03
El Platypo
and
00:34:08
Jen
Every episode, myself, and possibly Red, too, will be going on about how wonderful Jihin Wei's decisions are, how moral, how principled. That isn't a chorus. So, you know, it's good to give two book and others a chance.
00:34:23
red23
Exactly. But thank you for doing what we failed to do, Jamie, and giving her.
00:34:24
El Platypo
but I'm disappointed here. I mean, it used to be that Neelix and Janeway and Tuvok had an unembarrassed cheerleading squad in the other two folk on this podcast. And now I've just got to take up the torch because they're weary. They've lost standards.
00:34:46
red23
oh OK, moving on. I think this is my turn.
00:34:47
El Platypo
we Moving away from that pointing out of our flaws and Janeway appreciation, just brushing that off the slopey shoulders.
00:34:51
red23
and
00:34:55
red23
but
00:34:58
red23
Yes, I would never want that to get back to... um I really enjoyed, okay, I really enjoyed the scenes in the hydroponics bay for the plants, not necessarily for the crazy special effects that were going on from to time to time, and the creepy...
00:35:02
Jen
Okay.
00:35:15
red23
I know that's not in the hydroponics bay, but you know, they always refer to the hydroponics bay, refer to the hydroponics bay, and then sometimes you see a close-up sounding next to like one. Here we saw more plants, not enough to feed over 150 people, but i but I don't think that's the point. But um I liked, I think it's, you know, I'm older and now. I'm into gardening. I listen to God just question time.
00:35:37
Jen
Thanks.
00:35:37
red23
So I didn't really like it. And I mean, it was kind of cool that they, um, what's his name? Tassen? Misson? Tanis? Very good.
00:35:40
El Platypo
Agent Elrond.
00:35:46
red23
Agent Alran, um, has that ability to give the life to the plants that they all just instantly grew and flourished.
00:35:49
El Platypo
Oh,
00:35:54
red23
and like triple the size. I would love to do that with my Jasmine that I'm looking at right now on my balcony.
00:35:55
El Platypo
Jasmine is really PG right now, actually. um So yeah, I'd like that too.
00:36:03
El Platypo
ah so suspicious i I think actually, well, Caro, Caro, sorry.
00:36:04
red23
So I just like the tour of the hydroponics bay basically.
00:36:09
Jen
Yeah, I mean.
00:36:12
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:36:12
red23
I think Jenny was saying something.
00:36:16
Jen
Oh, yeah, sorry, the delays, the delays causing problems. No, I mean, I was literally going to add a really another boring gardening comment, so I don't know. I was just thinking um how useful that talent of tannuses would be to us specifically right now, because as Jamie says, if you have this lovely jasmine plant, there's this little indoor one, but there's this whole empty fence
00:36:39
red23
Oh.
00:36:39
Jen
that I can see from where I'm sat right now that we I would just love to plant the jasmine and have it grow all along the fence but within five minutes like tennis does yes
00:36:44
El Platypo
Yeah,
00:36:46
El Platypo
all that
00:36:47
red23
Oh, that's.
00:36:49
El Platypo
Yeah. And we have like 16 olive trees that also I would love to do that with because they'd look amazing. But I just, I'm in a war with the weeds that try and strangle them.
00:36:50
red23
That's going to be amazing in five years time.
00:36:52
Jen
I
00:37:01
Jen
just two foot at the moment
00:37:04
red23
But it will be worth it. and Future you will love it when it's done. But yes, I know what you mean.
00:37:05
El Platypo
Yes. Yes, it will.
00:37:13
red23
I was quite excited because last year I put my fiddle leaf fig outside and I had struggled and struggled and struggled. at In one season it tripled in size. So maybe once the Jasmine's outside it can.
00:37:17
El Platypo
Oh.
00:37:20
El Platypo
Yes. Yes. we I mean, i love I love how we're getting, you know, the chance to talk about gardening due to Star Trek Voyager. It's important.
00:37:21
Jen
I guess crossed.
00:37:34
red23
Um, yeah, so I uh, I don't have any more points really. I just have a question. So I don't know if I want to do a final round journey, if you have something or like a blitz round speed dating round.
00:37:43
El Platypo
I mean, I have a theme.
00:37:47
El Platypo
I have a theme.
00:37:48
red23
I don't know what I'm saying. Um, we're not, we're not at themes yet.
00:37:49
El Platypo
Okay.
00:37:52
red23
We're not at themes yet.
00:37:53
red23
So, um, but I do have a question, but, um, maybe I'll start with the question and then if you have any final thoughts. ah before we get to themes. So in that scene where Kez is, I think she's in the two-bucket that stage, and he's training her to tune into the thoughts of the crew, and she picks up Neelix, and that's when she has that little giggling, but whatever. What would it be like to constantly hear your partner's thoughts, do you think? And would you want
Theme Exploration: Power, Identity, and Anxiety
00:38:21
red23
that ability?
00:38:21
Jen
hmm i mean clearly no i mean bloody hell i mean this is true actually it might be really lovely
00:38:22
El Platypo
yeah ha and I'd hear how irritated Jenny was with my lack of tidiness all the time.
00:38:33
red23
But Jamie, I'm gonna upset you now, but you've told me that when you're not talking, there's nothing happening in your head, so why not be so bad for Jamie? Jamie.
00:38:40
El Platypo
I mean, I told you that in confidence, Dred, and now the whole podosphere knows that. A whole presumably between five to nineteen other people who listen to this know that. Wow.
00:38:54
El Platypo
I think that's an outcome of being bullied as a kid, actually, but anyway, let's not talk about that.
00:38:56
red23
Okay.
00:38:58
Jen
I, I might be.
00:39:02
Jen
What apparently is quite common.
00:39:02
red23
yeah
00:39:04
Jen
I think it's like very similar amount, like 50, 50.
00:39:06
red23
Yes. Yeah. yeah
00:39:08
Jen
Some people don't have this Roman commentary and others do. I know that both you and I read have have the running commentary. I'm just thinking that if you could share your thoughts or, you know, cross share with someone like Jamie, it might be quite relaxing.
00:39:22
red23
wow
00:39:22
Jen
You get some like quiet time in your head.
00:39:24
El Platypo
Not sure it wouldn't be you anxiety ridden creatures.
00:39:25
red23
Yes.
00:39:25
Jen
It's quite appealing now.
00:39:28
red23
Yes.
00:39:32
El Platypo
I just feel anxiety, but I don't like have thoughts of anxiety. It's very weird.
00:39:32
Jen
Yeah, you you would have the running commentary Jamie. That's so horrible for you.
00:39:39
El Platypo
must Yeah, like I can be feeling anxiety to the point of just constantly tooth gritting and c clenching, but I don't have any anxious thoughts or anything specific that drives it.
00:39:40
red23
Oh, so your thoughts are not generating anxiety.
00:39:51
red23
Oh.
00:39:51
El Platypo
It's just feeling anxious generally.
00:39:54
red23
Oh.
00:39:54
El Platypo
um
00:39:58
red23
That's interesting because when I was very stressed, uh, at different periods, sorry, Jenny, at different periods of my life, I was always kind of surprised.
00:39:59
Jen
you don't
00:40:05
red23
I didn't have that like clenched jaw or, You know, you have people like, ooh, like, and I was like, I've never had that, but maybe it's because the thoughts were always running through my brain. I don't know. Sandy?
00:40:16
Jen
Oh, I forgot what I was going to say. um Something about, oh, that was it. Just, um I was thinking what Jamie's describing. it It sounds like you haven't progressed to this step where you then ah assign reasons for the anxious meaning.
00:40:23
El Platypo
hmm
00:40:32
red23
Mmm.
00:40:32
Jen
So, you know, you might just feel generally a bit anxious ah and your brain ah tries to find a reason for it.
00:40:33
El Platypo
Um,
00:40:38
El Platypo
you know,
00:40:41
Jen
So then it comes up with all these, you know, I've left the oven on or
00:40:45
Jen
you know, something terrible is about to happen.
00:40:47
El Platypo
maybe.
00:40:47
red23
Yeah.
00:40:48
Jen
When in fact, it's just the feeling.
00:40:51
red23
Yeah, because, I mean, I was, ah I would say I used to be addicted to ruminating and that definitely didn't help my anxiety.
00:40:57
red23
Like if so you know someone said something at work or whatever, then I'd blow on it for way too long. But then I've also had this free-floating, I know I've experienced that kind of free-floating anxiety, where you expect something bad to happen.
00:41:03
El Platypo
and
00:41:05
El Platypo
so
00:41:08
El Platypo
I mean, I don't know if progressed is the right term because progression tends to apply something positive and this is why we podcast to talk about the deep stuff.
00:41:09
red23
You're like, why do I feel like this?
00:41:12
red23
But interesting, I'm sure.
00:41:21
Jen
Yeah, no, it's a probably not that positive.
00:41:28
red23
Well, for anyone...
00:41:28
Jen
Interesting, interesting conversational tangent.
00:41:31
red23
Yeah.
00:41:32
Jen
i'm like
00:41:35
El Platypo
Or apparently not.
00:41:36
red23
um Exactly. So before we go on...
00:41:37
El Platypo
I said or apparently not.
00:41:40
red23
Or...
00:41:43
red23
No, but Star Trek is a bit deep, so it can't be too... Someone at work was like, oh, do you find that, uh, you know, you talk about the meta, like you were saying our science fiction is out ah allegorical. And I was like, yes, that's the whole point of why we watch and discuss. He's like, does this ever come up?
00:41:55
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:42:00
red23
I'm like, yes, almost every episode.
00:42:00
Jen
um
00:42:03
red23
Um, yeah.
00:42:03
Jen
that's yeah that's that's that's why we love it absolutely no
00:42:06
red23
Um, but yeah, any final thoughts before we move on to themes?
00:42:08
El Platypo
yeah
00:42:14
Jen
just that as you know what i realized we didn't do the um like just initial stuff did we like it was this a good one what did we think um and i would say that i quite like it um i thought it was a good one and i especially love the two wrong moments
00:42:19
red23
Oh yes.
00:42:23
red23
Oh god. Thank you.
00:42:26
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:42:29
El Platypo
I liked it, although the the title the title of the episode does sound like the title of a novel in the fictional series in Brooklyn Nine-Nine by the sort of satire on George R.R.
00:42:30
red23
Jamie, your initial?
00:42:31
red23
No, not so initial reactions. ah
00:42:42
El Platypo
Martin. The Starfire Chronicles. Cold fire.
00:42:42
red23
Oh yes!
00:42:49
red23
Because it does.
00:42:49
El Platypo
Shuffling your swords and stringing your bows. Anyway, carry on.
00:42:50
Jen
oh
00:42:51
red23
That is a very good point. um
00:42:57
red23
I want to say something, but this is very random and not at all to do with Star Trek, but I bought shortbread tea today. Have you had shortbread tea?
00:43:03
El Platypo
No.
00:43:08
Jen
No, I've never even heard of it.
00:43:09
red23
I think I heard of someone mentioned it at work once and I was like, that sounds delicious. And then probably forgot about it. But yesterday I saw someone it was in someone's trolley or whatever. And I was like, oh, and I was paying, so it was too late to go back.
00:43:15
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:43:21
red23
So today I went especially back and I got shortbread tea and it is pretty delicious. Just say that's why I had to share that with someone.
00:43:23
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:43:27
Jen
oh i mean i am fascinated i have never heard of that and i would never have thought of those two combinations together even though now i say it i mean shortbread is a biscuit you got a cup of tea they they do go together so i definitely want to try it
00:43:41
red23
I think you should try it. I'm sorry, not getting paid, not a promotion on that, but just had to share that with everyone.
00:43:43
El Platypo
But it's just such an enjoyable product, especially by Scotland Shortbread Tea Company.
00:43:50
red23
uh yeah but um if they do want to sponsor us
00:43:55
El Platypo
I'm guessing that's the name of the company. Anyway, I just feel like the more we can you know pretend to be plugging things, the more I'll enjoy it because it's funny to pretend.
00:44:09
Jen
I mean, any, um, any, you know, national accent impressions from Jamie, I'm going to appreciate it. So feel free.
00:44:13
El Platypo
I mean, do you reckon Kate Mulgroove has ever tried? Scort is short, J and T, because I think there'd be an affinity there.
00:44:23
red23
That's so good.
00:44:24
Jen
I think it would be Irish.
00:44:25
red23
Yeah.
00:44:26
Jen
Essentially, like, aren't Irish.
00:44:27
red23
Yeah, she has Irish links.
00:44:29
El Platypo
ah nick ah Reactions or themes? Because I don't have any reactions that I haven't voiced, but I do have theme.
00:44:31
red23
Next, Jamie.
00:44:36
red23
Oh, no. Yes, i thought I was asking you to do it on the Irish accent, but let's move on to themes. You could do that on your Irish accent if you want.
00:44:39
El Platypo
Oh god, no! I mean, in these post-Brexit times, we don't we don't need accusations of xenophobia of people with my accent to compound to this podcast woe's red. Gosh.
00:44:54
El Platypo
That, for the record, was not an attempt at an Irish accent.
00:44:57
red23
Oh, okay. I love accents.
00:44:59
El Platypo
In case anyone was a little bit unclear on that point.
00:45:00
red23
Just in case it wasn't here.
00:45:05
El Platypo
Just doing it for the crack.
00:45:08
red23
Okay, Jamie. Themes.
00:45:08
El Platypo
ah May I start?
00:45:09
red23
You you start.
00:45:12
El Platypo
oh themes, sorry. um Yes, I thought a really sort of interesting one was, and it's brought out by Kez's resistance to its assertion, is effectively Agent Elrond constantly trying to convince Kez that because she is a being of more power she is ultimately more important and has more value as a unitary agent than people. um You know, there's this stunningly patronizing thing. I'm sure they're lovely. They certainly seem so, but they'll just never see the world the way and I'm a bit like, yeah, but that doesn't make them less people and you're trying to pretend like that. Oh, sorry, Jen. Hand went straight up. Go for it. Go for it. Go for it.
00:45:15
red23
Themes.
00:46:04
Jen
Oh, no, no, no, sorry. When ah when i I do that, I just mean that... um i Yeah, when when you finish your...
00:46:08
El Platypo
I have finished.
00:46:09
red23
She's got something to add.
00:46:10
El Platypo
I have finished.
00:46:12
Jen
yeah I don't mean to interrupt you.
00:46:14
Jen
Please continue.
00:46:14
El Platypo
No, you know. i
00:46:16
Jen
so Oh, dear. That went terribly wrong. Sorry. and No, I was only just, ah you know, going to agree with you.
00:46:23
Jen
And in particular, you reminded me of a moment which I had completely forgotten to mention. He actually describes ah the analogy he uses is the way she would feel about a pet, um which is really offensive.
00:46:33
El Platypo
Wow.
00:46:35
red23
Yeah.
00:46:35
El Platypo
ah
00:46:38
El Platypo
and And indeed it's it's the way in which he actually treats Neelix like one might treat a pet that finally decides Kez that she is not going to go with Agent Elrond and actually yeah fries him with mind bullets.
00:46:39
red23
Pretty disparaging, I think that's...
00:46:43
Jen
oh
00:46:55
El Platypo
Oracle in both cases.
00:47:03
red23
Yeah, that was a really good good point. I almost like glossed over that because I thought it was such a ridiculous perspective.
00:47:06
El Platypo
My bullets are never ridiculous.
00:47:10
Jen
one
00:47:14
red23
But yeah, he really saw himself as superior and trying to get her to, he thought that would be a way to convince her to return to the space station, but he was wrong. So that's not kiss. Interesting. Jenny.
00:47:31
Jen
um Well, for me, I think the one theme that sort of sticks in mind is just about the sort of too-voc wisdom about um darkness being in all of us and you know um you shouldn't be sort of repressing it or you know um trying to ignore it um because that you know that's it I think he says that it creates an opportunity for it to escape um so I'm not really sure how to articulate it really but something in that area
00:48:05
red23
Yeah, I think so.
Expectations and Standout Characters
00:48:07
red23
Great. I mean, if I'm gonna go on to my theme, it's not as deep as the old guys, but it maybe relates to the next section. But, you know, expect the, ah expect the and what's the word? Like, um well, I can't predict this either. But what is that saying? It's gone blank. It's something about like, expect the best, but prepare for the worst. ah Because Everyone is so infused and about meeting, and he's finding out these these are companies, and obviously they know, they can't, like, care, so I don't think anyone has, like, any reason to feel concerned when they first, ah, but I guess there's the, um, the Soros-Astrian or whatever, no, that's not I know it's supposed, but the caretaker's partner.
00:48:54
red23
But, uh, Tuvok is the one who's like, hmm, we should create some kind of weapon in case things go wrong. And everyone kind of looked at him when he said that a bit, like, Well, really?
00:49:03
Jen
Mm.
00:49:05
red23
But, you know, Janie, I was obviously like, well, yes, we should, but so just expect the best, prepare for the worst, I guess.
00:49:17
red23
Not as deep, but its I think I could have learned a lesson from that at the moment. Moving on to star player. Janie, I feel like you are excited for to award your star player. Do you want to go first?
00:49:32
Jen
Yes, I just, it was, um, you know, some weeks it's kind of difficult and some weeks it's not clear, but I just felt I love Two Book in this, so it had to be Two Book for me. And also I'm quite surprised at how often I'm choosing Two Book.
00:49:45
red23
Ah, because he's the best.
00:49:45
Jen
Um, yeah, I just, I thought it would always be Janeway. Um, but I feel like later on as we progress, it's going to be a lot more Janeway and a lot more a certain character who has yet to appear.
00:49:58
red23
Yes, it's just going to be alternate.
00:50:00
Jen
yeah basically yeah i mean yeah i sort of didn't um excuse me uh it didn't want to repeat myself too much but basically um i just loved the combination of his um comedy his deadpan delivery about emotions um excuse me
00:50:06
red23
Any final thoughts on why he's your star player? I mean, you said the comedy, the wisdom.
00:50:30
Jen
Um, with also the, the wisdom and yeah, I just, I just really love that moment between him and Kez, um, where he's sort of describing harking back to that darkness, you know, not letting it have have a, not ignoring it, um, and giving it an opportunity to thrive.
00:50:42
red23
Mm.
00:50:51
Jen
Um, yeah, I just thought he was great.
00:50:54
red23
Excellent. Jamie, do you have a star player? Have you somehow muted yourself? There we go.
00:51:02
El Platypo
ah Yeah, I just feel that I've interrupted you guys above the critical mass amount by this stage, so it's important to stop that happening. I... have an unusual star player, and one that I suspect will surprise you both, ah my star player as just performing above and beyond, and indeed beyond the point of death, ah beyond one what might anticipate, is the hydroponics bay, because the hydroponics bay is doing damn well for a series of inanimate objects to be the thing that pinpoints that someone
00:51:36
Jen
hahaha
00:51:38
El Platypo
is a Ronan while also alerting someone to their late latent psychic powers ah and then going above and beyond in their duty to the starship by pinpointing Agent Elrond as a Ronan at the point of death as obviously someone reacted positively to just absolutely torturing an entire bay of innocent plants is probably someone with a metaphorical sign above their head saying I am probably not acting in good faith. And I think the hydroponics bay is the catalyst for this and ergo has served and served faithfully and well.
00:52:18
El Platypo
I think we've all come to expect that from me.
00:52:19
red23
Very good, very unusual domination, but we'll accept the survey.
00:52:23
red23
Yes, Jenny.
00:52:23
Jen
I feel like, um, yeah, I mean, I do think that is a hilarious choice. Um, it also could be taken as quite a criticism of the cast of this.
00:52:31
El Platypo
Not a criticism of a caste, just a criticism of the Starship security protocols.
00:52:35
red23
All the characters.
00:52:41
Jen
Okay. I'm glad we clarified that.
00:52:43
red23
Also, I'm glad we got to mention that all those plants died, but that was kind of horrific.
00:52:46
El Platypo
study yourself, you'll get through this, study yourself, stout folk
00:52:49
Jen
Traumatic.
00:52:49
red23
very dramatic oh you don't understand what i saw yesterday i was walking home a okay it wasn't a plant but i was dark and we have this little playground outside my block of flats and there was like just this teddy bear lying in the mud under one of the like jungle gyms and i was like oh no i felt so sad it's like wait i'm not i can't rescue a teddy bear like what can i and also
00:53:10
Jen
oh
00:53:10
El Platypo
you Yes you can, yes you can, and I regularly have. I once reviewed Teddy Hedgehog.
00:53:21
red23
Oh, it kind of looked like the bear from Ted, that movie, which didn't help either because our bears kind of like real life. Um, okay, sorry. Another a tangent. Um, okay. My star player, I was torn when I'm going to go with Kez, uh, because, yeah, I thought, um, actually just got more action, which is, I liked her character. I know she's not people's favorite, but I, I never, I kind of always liked her.
00:53:45
El Platypo
hmm
00:53:50
red23
Um, And yes, she chooses Neelix and Star Trek, I mean, you know, um Voyager over the Accompan's. And yeah, and she was crucial, as you said, right at the beginning, Jamie, you have to kind of protecting Voyager.
00:53:55
El Platypo
hmm hmm
00:54:06
red23
So I think she's earned it.
00:54:09
Jen
Hmm, yeah.
00:54:12
red23
And yeah, now she's on the start. I feel like I've said this a few times, but I'm always like, now she's on the start of her
00:54:15
El Platypo
so so this
00:54:19
red23
psychic ability journey, but now she really has had a taste of some serious powers, so we'll have to wait and see what happens.
00:54:20
El Platypo
and She's going to be a Jedi soon.
00:54:21
Jen
Hmm.
00:54:30
red23
um Yeah, so any final thoughts before we wrap up?
00:54:31
El Platypo
At what stage in an accomplished progression do they get awarded a lightsaber?
00:54:41
El Platypo
I mean, you asked for my thoughts, and we've already established there's nothing in my head beyond.
00:54:42
red23
Not sure.
00:54:44
Jen
who
00:54:46
Jen
but any um My only thoughts now are the tangent that Red took us on with the teddy.
00:54:48
red23
Oh no, Jania, thank you. Yeah, maybe it wouldn't be that relaxing. Oh yes.
00:55:00
El Platypo
I just.
00:55:00
Jen
I feel like that this is one of these black holes.
00:55:04
Jen
It then makes me think of, you know, and ah yeah you feel this natural inclination to jump with. Oh, that reminds me of this time, but this would be a terrible like list of tangents to go down like just hot heartbreaking things you've seen like um well do you want me to tell tell you the one just one but it's just so unnecessary and sad but okay so it reminds me of when i was up rowing at university we entered the race um and um me and my lovely crewmates were sat on the start line
00:55:14
El Platypo
Aww.
00:55:15
red23
Please, please go ahead.
00:55:22
red23
Maybe just one, just one. I'm not sure I can handle more than one.
00:55:26
El Platypo
Aww.
00:55:35
red23
Oh no.
00:55:39
El Platypo
boom
00:55:42
Jen
ready to go up to the race point.
00:55:44
Jen
um And we took this as an omen of how badly the race was going to go. And clearly we were right because we didn't win. um But we're sat on the water, and we're like, oh, oh, look at the little duckling. That was so cute.
00:55:57
red23
Aww.
00:55:57
Jen
And then someone on the blue says, oh, why? Yeah, but why is it on its own? Where's its mum and its siblings? And we were all just sat there looking at it.
00:56:05
red23
Aww. Oh, no.
00:56:06
Jen
And then this seagull, this seagull swoops down. grabs it by its neck and swoops off with it.
00:56:14
red23
Oh, my God. No wonder you have burned that into your memory.
00:56:16
Jen
One of the saddest things I've seen.
00:56:16
El Platypo
dramatictic
00:56:18
red23
That's horrific.
00:56:22
Jen
ah
00:56:23
red23
Oh, that is horrible.
00:56:25
Jen
I know, what a note to finish it on.
00:56:26
red23
I mean, I don't mean that, and that was horrible to say, but I understand why you've never forgotten that, and now, but...
00:56:27
Jen
I'm so sorry guys.
00:56:28
El Platypo
you i and know I'm just in a bit of a state of
00:56:33
El Platypo
Now that we're in the countryside, there's sort of, I really want a kitten, a young kittens, and I feel like the only way that we're going to get particularly young kittens is if we find where someone's abandoned some, and you know, that'll be traumatic as well.
00:56:37
red23
Oh,
00:56:50
El Platypo
Yeah, but that'll be their mum and their dad, and that'll be sad.
00:56:51
red23
no, but I mean, then you'll get kittens.
00:56:51
Jen
Yes.
00:56:53
red23
That'll be fine.
00:56:54
Jen
you did that
00:56:58
red23
Bye, everybody!
00:56:58
Jen
Yeah, you're not going to take him too early, are you?
00:56:58
El Platypo
Well, I mean, no, we'd never take them early deliberately, it's if we're saving their lives.
00:57:01
red23
No.
00:57:02
Jen
It's got to be.
00:57:07
red23
I'm sure I've said this before, but in South Africa, I feel like you just get animals by, you know, a kitten will just walk up to you and be like, great, I've got a kitten now. In London, it's so hard to get this, I find.
00:57:14
El Platypo
Oh.
00:57:17
Jen
it
00:57:18
red23
Like, why are they just on the side of the street?
00:57:20
red23
What do you think about me?
00:57:23
El Platypo
Oh.
00:57:23
Jen
Yeah, we've been keeping an eye on the rescue centers, but um and it were it does tend to be older cats.
00:57:23
red23
Yeah, rescuing is super difficult.
00:57:32
Jen
And, you know, they have a lot of requirements, like they can't be put with other cats or, you know, they need, they're a bit anxious or nervous or, you know, have kidney problems and need to be taken for that.
00:57:41
red23
But they're quite, yeah, they're quite strict about like, what, I mean, not, you know, now you should be fine, but yeah.
00:57:45
Jen
and
00:57:49
Jen
Yeah.
00:57:50
red23
They're really looking out for those cats, much to my frustration.
00:57:50
El Platypo
What do you not like, cats?
00:57:55
red23
No, I love cats, but like, I remember looking into, like adopting a cat from, and it was like, you have to have a spare room. At that stage, I did not just have a spare room lying your around.
00:58:06
Jen
A spare room, interesting.
00:58:06
red23
So, yeah. um I think if you didn't have a garden or something, but yeah it had to have its own place where it could get you know get away and stay and have its own. It's me time. I was like, I have a staff, but I don't have a spare room.
00:58:17
Jen
so
00:58:20
El Platypo
school
00:58:21
Jen
Wow, gets its own room.
00:58:24
red23
Yeah. So, but now I can get a cat, but I've got to do a few other things first. Anyway, probably should wrap this up and we can always continue.
00:58:32
Jen
this is yes yes Anyway, this is a real tangent, this one.
00:58:36
red23
Aww. Well, see you in a few weeks. Thanks everyone for listening and let me just try and play this out. I think it worked last time. You can do your dance if you want.
00:58:39
El Platypo
Duh duh duh duh
00:58:47
red23
Oh yeah, it's a slow one. I always just never know when I'm short clicking.
00:58:51
Jen
Maybe we just get Jamie to sing us out.
00:58:57
red23
ah Bye!