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We watch "Maneuvers" (S2 Ep.11)
14 Plays6 months ago
We watch "Maneuvers" (S2 Ep.11)
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
New format, same old show!
This week we are watching "Maneuvers" in which we encounter the Kazon, and our favourite villain (for now at least) Seska! Also, is that the pitter patter of tiny feet?.
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at [email protected].
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction and Banter
00:00:00
red23
It's, I just say the same thing every time. I don't remember how to do this. But.
00:00:04
El Platypo
Let's not forget the jingle. We must.
00:00:06
red23
Oh, should we pay a little bit of a jingle? Welcome back, everyone. Let's see if I pay the right one. Oh, yes.
00:00:11
El Platypo
No worries.
00:00:12
red23
Okay. Thanks, Jamie.
00:00:16
red23
Oh, yes. No one can see us dance. Jenny's dancing.
00:00:22
red23
Oh.
00:00:25
red23
I don't actually know how to make it fade out at this point, so I will
00:00:25
El Platypo
ah
00:00:28
El Platypo
Jenny bringing the visual comedy to the medium of music.
00:00:33
red23
I wish everyone could have seen that if only we were a video- video medium!
00:00:35
El Platypo
Booyah. She's doing the Diplodocus.
00:00:40
red23
Ah, so-
00:00:40
Jen
It's very strangely satisfying to dance on video cam.
00:00:45
El Platypo
On a podcast.
00:00:45
red23
Wait, no one can see you.
00:00:48
El Platypo
Apart from yourself and everyone else on the video cam.
00:00:52
red23
Ah, so welcome back everyone to Jade Ray's Children, uh, to our listeners.
Summary: Voyager Episode and Seska's Role
00:00:57
red23
Um, season two, episode 11 maneuvers is what we're talking about this week. Um, and Jamie, are you ready to give us, I mean, we never do any introductions. I hope people know who you are by now, but Jamie, are you ready?
00:01:07
El Platypo
Yeah. Yeah, I'm red. That's Jamie talking now.
00:01:11
red23
I'm Jamie.
00:01:12
El Platypo
And the one who, you know, did all the dancing and his silent mind participant is... am I your name again?
00:01:22
red23
Our silent partner.
00:01:22
Jen
ah but
00:01:27
red23
um Jamie, are you ready for a one-minute summary?
00:01:30
El Platypo
Why are you talking to yourself? Obviously I'm red. God.
00:01:34
red23
Okay, right. Are you ready for a one-minute summary?
00:01:35
El Platypo
I'm not red. I wouldn't be seeing dead cool red. I'd be blue or green or something like that.
00:01:40
red23
Oh.
00:01:40
Jen
Yeah, we really shouldn't have assigned ourselves coloured names to match red's actual name of red.
00:01:41
El Platypo
um I don't...
00:01:45
Jen
I'll call it.
00:01:46
El Platypo
I mean, we could just go with Roy. ah Red, orange, yellow, something like that. I don't know why we've gone with color.
00:01:51
red23
And Roy is red, not for chance.
00:01:53
El Platypo
Is it?
00:01:53
red23
If I remember that correctly, so...
00:01:56
Jen
Oh, but could I be...
00:01:56
El Platypo
How do you know Afrikaans red?
00:01:57
Jen
good Could I be violent though?
00:01:59
red23
Janie, what were you gonna say? You like, literally took a... It'd take a breath, eh?
00:02:04
Jen
Because then I'd have the same name as Dowager from Downton Abbey.
00:02:08
red23
Yes, of course you can.
00:02:10
El Platypo
It's a really good thing that most of our listeners are apparently in the United States, so that they are down with the Downton crew.
00:02:19
red23
Yeah.
00:02:19
El Platypo
I don't know if anyone can truly be ready for a one minute summary, but if I had to summarise this episode, I think it is that the dudes in the Star Trek universe who have the most similar hairstyles to aliens from Farscape perform a hit and run and I do mean hit and run by which I mean collision and run off with ah a piece of transporter technology from the Voyager ship.
Chakotay's Actions and Episode Reactions
00:02:48
El Platypo
Chikote decides to violate a number of things including the chain of command
00:02:51
red23
Haha.
00:02:54
El Platypo
runs off his own on his own to try and get it back from the individual behind this perfidious crime, who it turns out is none other than our ex-crew member and indeed Chakotay's ex, Seska. The plot thickens from there with multiple rescue attempts, a torture scene and then an unforeseen plot twist at the end and also the most enormous injection needle I don't think I've ever seen Inestatric or indeed anything ever.
00:03:27
El Platypo
That was my take on it.
00:03:27
red23
Agreed and brilliant summary.
00:03:28
El Platypo
it That thing was big, man. Like, I'm surprised. Anyway, yeah.
00:03:34
Jen
No, I noticed that too.
00:03:34
El Platypo
That was it.
00:03:36
Jen
yeah i It made me imagine those, because you know these get you get those theatrical ones where the the needle actually slides back in um and it looks like you're injecting them.
00:03:46
El Platypo
Yeah, yeah. Hmm.
00:03:49
Jen
I assume it must have been one of those, but it did look quite realistic.
00:03:51
El Platypo
Well, yeah.
00:03:52
red23
But the biggest one ever. Oh, that bottle.
00:03:54
El Platypo
Yeah, I mean, Chikote was injected in the back of the neck with this thing, and I thought, going by the actual length of this needle, if he was injected as far in as they're implying it's actually been injected in, it would go in the back and out the front, and it would be able to see it poking out of his neck, which is a degree of goryness that I don't typically associate with ah this franchise of Star Trek, although I'm starting to get closer to that sort of level on Star Trek Picard, which
00:04:08
Jen
Oh.
00:04:08
red23
ah
00:04:09
Jen
ah
00:04:21
red23
oh
00:04:22
El Platypo
Journey has introduced me to you and I very much enjoy it.
Character Dynamics: Chakotay and Leadership
00:04:26
red23
Yes, we've heard that disagreement.
00:04:26
El Platypo
Anyhow, I love Star Trek Picard.
00:04:27
red23
um
00:04:30
El Platypo
I think it's amazing.
00:04:33
red23
I'm very happy for you. ah But yes, I had to look away when that that needle came out. And I was like, this is the future, really?
00:04:41
red23
But I think I see someone has put a one cool thing into the notes. So who Jenny, you want to take us away?
00:04:41
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:04:48
Jen
Yes, well, um I might just ah caveat this one cool thing with, um so for various reasons, I was struggling to come up with my usual vast amount of, you know, interesting, exciting um comments.
00:05:02
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:05:03
Jen
So I actually went and did a little bit of a little Google.
00:05:06
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:05:07
Jen
um And that's where I found the interesting
00:05:07
red23
Oh, nice.
00:05:10
Jen
one cool thing, and which was that Seska, I mean I don't want to, you know, give the game away for the last scene, but basically she was apparently pregnant, the character, as as ah sorry not the character, the actor herself was pregnant during filming this.
00:05:11
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:05:25
red23
Oh, amazing. I did not realise. But she was wearing that like medieval style jacket, which I guess maybe covered her quite well, depending on how
00:05:28
Jen
Apparently so.
00:05:34
Jen
Oh yeah.
00:05:36
El Platypo
Mm-hmm.
00:05:36
red23
Or along she was.
00:05:39
El Platypo
Interesting.
00:05:39
red23
That, that's very cool. So Jenny, I had to laugh when I saw, I did see your notes. I haven't seen Jamie's notes, but do you want to give your initial reaction to this episode?
00:05:48
El Platypo
so
00:05:48
Jen
but Well, yeah, I mean, I, as soon as I i actually overheard Jamie watching it and before I watched it and I just, I put my head in my hands because I'm really not a fan of this one. I love Voyager and I hate to be like, ranting and negative. Um, so I'm going to attempt try and not be that way.
00:06:07
El Platypo
hmm
00:06:09
Jen
But honestly, I so sat there for a full five minutes at the end, trying to think of like, um, you know, the real key top, excellent moments.
00:06:12
El Platypo
hmm
00:06:17
Jen
I just had so many like um more ranty comments, so I just decided to go for it.
00:06:17
El Platypo
hmm hmm
00:06:21
red23
Well, I think, yes, good. I mean, I know at the beginning of this podcast, I was like, rose tip to glasses. But you know, if you have that negative perspective, we want to hear it. And I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure other people want to hear it as well. So don't hold back.
00:06:36
Jen
I don't know about that, but thanks, Red.
00:06:37
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:06:37
red23
Um, well, I mean, negativity seems to drive the internet. So a little bit on our podcast, one I don't think.
00:06:43
El Platypo
Yeah, the first bit after X-Many episodes will, willll okay, apart from every single interaction that I've had with Neelix, and he really annoys me this one as well, where...
00:06:55
red23
He barely has any screen time, Jamie, that's not fair.
00:06:57
Jen
It's neat, isn't it?
00:06:57
El Platypo
He still annoys me!
00:06:58
Jen
It's neat, isn't it? When is Neelix in it?
00:07:01
red23
Oh,
00:07:01
El Platypo
ah She... the captain could not more clearly have been talking in generalities as opposed to, you know, asking Neelix to stand up. As opposed to him thinking, she's talking to me. You can count on me, captain. And he does fucking nothing.
00:07:13
red23
oh yes.
00:07:14
El Platypo
NOTHING!
00:07:14
red23
Yes.
00:07:17
El Platypo
So angry.
00:07:18
red23
Okay.
00:07:18
El Platypo
Talk. Pass me the smelling salts. Do I get to facilitate?
00:07:21
red23
but
00:07:22
El Platypo
Or, sorry, should I facilitate?
00:07:22
red23
Uh, any more initial reactions from your side? Um, and then I'll give mine.
00:07:26
El Platypo
I mean, I really thought that Neelix stood out as an absolutely superb crew member this episode.
00:07:32
red23
Sarcasm is hard to tell on a podcast. Let me tell you that. Um, I listened to this, the Dateline podcast and these two presenters are always being very mean to each other.
00:07:37
El Platypo
No!
00:07:43
red23
And I'm like, I think they're being sarcastic as supposed to be a joke, but I'm feeling very uncomfortable. Um, so yeah, my initial,
00:07:50
El Platypo
How did do you react to this?
00:07:52
red23
My initial reaction is, I, okay. I maybe, well, I don't know, maybe not as much as Jenny. I think I get a little bored with the Ks on.
00:08:00
El Platypo
Mmhmm.
00:08:03
red23
Um, and they, they curl like hair, but I was really excited to have Seska back.
00:08:03
Jen
you know
00:08:07
El Platypo
Last skate pair.
00:08:09
red23
I mean, and I have quite a lot to say about her, I think. Um, and maybe we all will already, but. Um, actually, you know, it's nice what you could take to have his own story. Um, uh, if you think of it from like kind of rotating through the things. So I had a lot that I did enjoy, but when the case on where I was on screen and they like so mature and they can't get along, I just kind of tune out.
00:08:31
Jen
I know what you mean.
00:08:31
El Platypo
Yeah, they do seem sort of, you know, rent a villain for an episode sort of species in this particular Star Trek franchise. It's like anytime you need someone goonish and a bit warlike to be manipulated, ILS bring the Ks on in.
00:08:46
Jen
I guess that's why they paired the caison with cesca because otherwise they would be quite boring villains
Debate on Leadership and Decision-Making
00:08:51
Jen
and we I mean you're pitting them against villains like the borg which are you know the all-time great villains you know so that's
00:08:51
red23
Very good point.
00:08:52
El Platypo
Mmm.
00:08:59
red23
Yeah.
00:09:00
El Platypo
yeah yeah right up there with the Daleks really for some of the reasons i absolutely am with a good deal of pleasure but i think i so i actually could i do something novel
00:09:04
Jen
why he's just thinking
00:09:06
red23
So Jamie, are you happy to take us through our favorite moments over to you?
00:09:25
El Platypo
rather than sort of give people their sort of points um in the order that they put them and go through you in that way.
00:09:30
red23
Guys, this is happening live just so you know.
00:09:33
El Platypo
Oh, no, no, I know, I know, I'm absolutely aware.
00:09:34
red23
I'm speaking to our listeners in case they're listening.
00:09:36
El Platypo
I know, but our listeners are all American.
00:09:37
red23
Jamie's changing the format on the spot.
00:09:39
El Platypo
they They love a bit of British Johnsonian bumbling around. They haven't, you know, had to deal with it as head of their nation. Am I okay to sort of pick individual points on occasion as well as saying, tell me your points with trust?
00:09:50
red23
I think go for it.
00:09:51
El Platypo
Really? I mean, I'm changing, it I'm told by a source not very far away from me that I'm changing the format mid session.
00:09:52
red23
Yes.
00:09:57
El Platypo
I'm ripping things up and I can't do that.
00:09:59
red23
Well,
00:09:59
El Platypo
Are you sure you're a okay with that?
00:10:00
red23
i'm okay with that jenny u k but
00:10:02
Jen
No, go for it.
00:10:02
El Platypo
Say no, please say no, please say no.
00:10:04
Jen
Go for it.
00:10:04
El Platypo
Oh, God.
00:10:05
Jen
You don't have to do it either.
00:10:08
El Platypo
um yeah so i i would i i'd love love to see uh red talk about the point where you say lol chat water mated message to try to prevent jw from doing what he loves to do put the whole ship in danger for one person to vok very keen to respect ch wishes jw guy versus better judgment be very persuasive now
00:10:24
red23
I am okay with that. Jenny, you okay with that?
00:10:28
Jen
Okay.
00:10:35
El Platypo
I have done nothing on the Star Trek Voyager that wasn't in line with Star Trek Starfleet Protocols, so I am astounded to find Bynish was being used in vain here.
00:10:45
red23
Your initials. Oh yeah, JW Janeway.
00:10:48
El Platypo
Oh! Oh, sorry, I thought that was that was your point was referencing me there.
00:10:51
red23
Oh no, sorry, JW is fine.
00:10:54
El Platypo
Gosh. Well, this is embarrassing. One's ego comes and smacks one in the face when one least expects it. I feel like I've been ambushed behind by a man with a baseball bat. Just lurks there the whole time.
00:11:05
red23
Now we know why you wanted to dive straight to that point.
00:11:05
El Platypo
Red.
00:11:08
red23
You thought it was about you. Sorry to disappoint you.
00:11:09
El Platypo
Oh, no, no, no, no. I just mixed and matched at random. I just wanted um wanted a platform.
00:11:13
Jen
i
00:11:15
Jen
I think what you were doing, Jay, is beautifully demonstrating one of the key themes of this episode, which is ego.
00:11:23
El Platypo
Ego. ah no and now now Now, before you...
00:11:25
Jen
And I agree. ah thoroughly with jade way on the self-indulgence of jade way.
00:11:29
El Platypo
Now, hold on here. Hold on. If you want that type self-indulgent on your bit. But this is Red's moment. And Red, I want you to talk to this moment. And then make Jenny talk to this moment. And then maybe I'll make you fight. But let's let's go.
00:11:42
red23
Okay. Well, sure. Let's go this way. This is a moment later ill the on right in the later on in the episode where Chakotay has gone off on his own to do his mission ah because he feels responsible.
00:11:52
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:11:54
red23
And maybe we'll come back to this because Cesc is involved. So he kind of, for some reason, because she's involved, he thinks he needs to solve this problem.
00:11:57
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:12:00
red23
of this theft on his own. But I just thought it was very funny because he leaves this automated message at this beacon that's like sending out this message.
00:12:03
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:12:07
red23
And that message is basically to Janeway saying, please do not follow me as you normally do, because your your biggest flaw is sacrificing the many to save the one person, which I've spoken about many times before. And I just love the fact that he sent her, or he left at this message, which she nearly did follow because he had been very explicit. And I also just thought it was very funny that Tuvok was like, oh, we should really respect his wishes. Like he has no desire serious go to after Chakotay.
00:12:32
Jen
Mm.
00:12:35
El Platypo
Career progression for Tuvok.
00:12:37
red23
Yeah, he's just like, oh, he said it. Nevermind. Let's leave it behind. Bye.
00:12:41
El Platypo
Oh wow, that's job done really. Let's ah let's let's back it in.
00:12:45
red23
And, um, but then Balana is the one that really fights for, um, ah for Chakotay.
00:12:50
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:12:50
red23
And in that moment, Janeway says, yes, my gut says go after him, but my better judgment says risk, like, you know, to not do that. And it's like, yes, I just, you know, I was, I do like the fact that she'll never leave anyone behind, but some people would perceive that as kind of a flaw because it puts everyone in danger. But in the end, she, Balana pushes her back into that, um
Episode Climax and Seska's Villainy
00:13:13
El Platypo
And what are the arguments that Bologna uses?
00:13:13
red23
towards her instinct anyway.
00:13:15
red23
Hmm?
00:13:16
El Platypo
And what are the arguments that Bologna uses to push her back? Because I think those are quite interesting.
00:13:19
red23
Well, you can probably quote the line, but she was like, ah something about how demoralizing it would be for the whole crew to lose their first officer I think is what she kind of is the argument she makes.
00:13:29
Jen
And also the fact that sometimes it is a good thing to follow your gut.
00:13:29
El Platypo
and
00:13:37
Jen
Obviously hard to know when you should be but um I quite like that argument because I mean I guess I would have a tendency to always take this so more logical course but I'm always right.
00:13:51
El Platypo
And could i could I use this point to pivot? Because I get what you're saying, and I think Red's point around that argument is an interesting one. because And pivoting to my point here, and I'm going with the whole random dotting about thing. But I was fascinated by the
00:14:09
El Platypo
speed with which Chakotay decides to dis- or not even disobey orders but just disregard everything, his responsibilities, everything like that. And then the challenge it poses the captain at the very end where Chakotay, having gone off without orders, basically not mutinied but abandoned post, put himself in danger, put his ship in danger in order to pursue what The captain viewed as a personal vendetta as opposed to Chikote's view that actually it was a debt of honour and responsibility. I like the way at the end that the captain actually summarises that with
00:14:49
El Platypo
what am I going to do? He's just going to disobey orders every single time something like this comes up. um And there's an odd poignancy to the moment at the end where the captain says, you're on report if that still means anything.
00:14:55
Jen
Mm.
00:15:02
El Platypo
And Shikote says, it means something to me. But I don't know. d Do you guys feel as though that moment between Shikote and the captain is resolved at that stage? Or I don't know. What's your view on it? I'm interested.
00:15:19
red23
Go, Jenny.
00:15:19
Jen
I'm very blessed, I'm very blessed.
00:15:20
red23
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:21
Jen
Yeah, I mean I thought it felt like it was resolved and you know I'm glad that the Eagle Report still means something otherwise I guess it would just be meaningless and yeah I do kind of agree with her first instinct about the behavior of it being a bit self-indulgent and ego-driven because I was comparing it to other scenarios in Star Trek where someone sacrifices themselves to sort of protect
00:15:29
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:15:46
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:15:49
Jen
Um, crew. Um, and I was just thinking that, but I feel like the difference here is that it's not, he's not protecting them. There's nothing to protect them from.
00:15:57
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:15:58
Jen
He's actively going out. Um, and, and in fact, putting them into danger.
00:16:00
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:16:02
Jen
Cause I mean, come on, they're obviously going to follow him. It's like Cisco, Cisco says, um, but is it's, it's weird.
00:16:05
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:16:08
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:16:09
Jen
They've got their first officer. They're obviously going to come and try and rescue you. And that moment where.
00:16:14
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:16:16
Jen
He has this like dawning realization on his face that she's right.
00:16:19
El Platypo
Oh.
00:16:19
Jen
I find utterly ridiculous. Like, I mean, how stupid are you?
00:16:21
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:16:24
Jen
Of course they can.
00:16:25
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:16:25
Jen
How can you only just realize this? Like, red.
00:16:30
El Platypo
No.
00:16:31
red23
Yeah, I did really like, well, you know, I felt, I thought she was being a bit harsh maybe initially because, um, I maybe saw it from his perspective, but but but bit more like trying to do the right thing. But when she points out that there's like this chain of command, which is not an environment I'm familiar with as I've probably said before, but you know, he's not setting a good example for everyone else as well.
00:16:48
El Platypo
You are exhibiting cost.
00:16:52
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:16:52
red23
And like, he made her life as a captain more difficult by going out and doing, and then I was like, okay, I see. Yeah. It's just interesting to have her say that out loud and explain why she had to do some kind of discipline.
00:17:02
Jen
Mmm.
00:17:06
red23
And he does seem...
00:17:07
El Platypo
Mm-hmm.
00:17:09
red23
ah Yeah, exactly.
00:17:09
El Platypo
Chastened. Yeah. Although, I mean, i I have to ask the question, have you never been in a situation in which you've had a chain of command, even, you know, professionally or at work?
00:17:20
red23
I mean, I have escalated stuff to people and then they're like, oh my gosh, I guess you're escalating this to me because I'm more senior than. Yes.
00:17:27
Jen
yeah
00:17:28
red23
Is that what you mean?
00:17:30
El Platypo
i I just wanted to probe that comment a little bit more, I think. But I will pass it. It's fine. Clearly triggering all sorts of, you know, nerves on that one. Jenny,
Technical Critiques and Themes of Honor
00:17:41
El Platypo
would you care to talk us through one of your moments in colour?
00:17:44
Jen
oh right well um yes i have to um i try and um just temper my tendency to to rant because love voyager everyone knows this um yeah i really struggle with this episode um like i think one of the key things for me was that um that to me it felt like there were a lot of i don't know if plot holes is the right word but something close to that um
00:17:51
El Platypo
The potters are revolting. ah Yeah.
00:17:56
red23
Rent away, Jenny, rent away.
00:18:01
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:18:14
Jen
both in the actual storyline, but also in the motivation of the characters' behaviours, which just seemed kind of ludicrous.
00:18:20
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:18:22
Jen
Like, for example, I know it's fantasy, but I do enjoy Star Trek because there's an element of, like, realism behind it, so things like this kind of get to me.
00:18:23
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:18:31
Jen
Like, wouldn't they change the access codes when Cesca left?
00:18:33
red23
Hahaha
00:18:34
El Platypo
yeah
00:18:36
Jen
Like, surely that's, like, Security 101?
00:18:39
El Platypo
and In fact, Chikote was tasked with doing a full-on security review and if he hadn't been so obsessed with jumping into Chikote, sorry, too much was tasked with that, if he hadn't been so obsessed with jumping into Chikote's, you know, shoes the moment he left, maybe those would have been changed in time.
00:18:56
Jen
Yeah, because that's the other thing. Like when Shikote was captured by an enemy, they again didn't change the access codes. I'm like, what is happening? And then I, I will say, I'm going to group these all together, right?
00:19:05
El Platypo
Just leave it at 999.
00:19:09
Jen
So I get it out of the way. ah I also just don't really understand why Shikote just surrendered there his face at Seska when he was on board.
00:19:19
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:19:19
Jen
ah And then the final one, I'm going to just, I'm going to put my hands up and say this was, um
00:19:20
El Platypo
For... Hmm.
00:19:26
Jen
not from me but when I was like reading online um I was like oh great now I've got another reason but it doesn't make sense um that it's basically a little plot hole that um they transport the enemy aboard when their their shields are up um oh goodness and then yeah just the the whole thing I mentioned about Chakotay not realizing that Voyager would come after him seems highly unlikely um so that I'm done I'm done
00:19:38
red23
Ah, yes.
00:19:40
El Platypo
Um...
00:19:50
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:19:52
red23
Yeah, he could kind of take a risk, but at the back of his mind he knew that he would probably be rescued.
00:19:53
El Platypo
Yeah,
00:19:57
El Platypo
I mean, some some might suggest that's the height of manipulativeness.
00:19:58
Jen
Surely.
00:20:01
El Platypo
um I don't know if I'm going to go that hard.
00:20:02
red23
Oh, no.
00:20:04
El Platypo
um It might be a subconscious id thing or ego thing, but that's that's interesting, but...
00:20:09
red23
I would like to respond to the surrender, ah etc but I think it's just triggered a memory.
00:20:12
El Platypo
Ooh!
00:20:12
Jen
Yes. Please respond.
00:20:17
red23
As I mentioned, I was in Berlin ah recently and I did a cycle tour and we went to the Luftwaffe, headquarters, Luftwaffe, thank you.
00:20:25
El Platypo
Luftwaffe. Oh wow.
00:20:26
Jen
Oh, wow.
00:20:27
red23
And our guide told us that out of kind of what some people maybe now would say misplaced honor, the allies never attacked the headquarters.
00:20:33
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:20:36
red23
So there's no bomb damage on the actual building um because it was like their air headquarters and the allies were bombing the city from the air. So they felt, I guess it was a matter of honor not to bomb those headquarters.
00:20:51
El Platypo
That's a weird one.
00:20:51
red23
um And I think um um but that's how I interpreted it, please.
00:20:51
Jen
Oh.
00:20:56
red23
don't come for me if I got that wrong. But again, like, I mean, is Chakotay really going to hold a weapon on Seska, his ex-lover? Like, um, and I mean, he'll soon be surrounded by like other people. So what is the point of even having the weapon? He'll be overpowered. So I think, I mean, that i that's how I interpreted it. He wouldn't hold a weapon on her because he was never going to shoot her or stun her or anything like that, I think, because he
00:21:15
El Platypo
and some it's It's an interesting one because, yes, to what you say, but he's theoretically he theoretically thinks he's on a one-way ticket um to destroy the technology and then what happens to him happens to him. One couldn't imagine him shooting Cesca because he's jucating, he's honorable, but taking her as a hostage and using her as a bargaining chip to gain access to the technology. well
00:21:44
red23
But he had already destroyed, I think, the technology by that point, right?
00:21:46
El Platypo
No, how do you? I don't believe he had, as far as I understand.
00:21:49
Jen
I think he did.
00:21:50
red23
I think he had, because by the time he...
00:21:51
El Platypo
Oh, okay.
00:21:52
red23
Yeah.
00:21:52
El Platypo
oh look oh
00:21:53
red23
I'm just standing up for Shikote, that's all.
00:21:55
Jen
No, no, I do.
00:21:56
El Platypo
I know, and you're sticking out like a sore thumb on this one, and I'm terrified to hear it.
00:21:56
Jen
I do think that's probably.
00:22:00
Jen
I think that is the least.
00:22:01
El Platypo
Go for it, son.
00:22:04
Jen
That's the slightly more tenuous one of points of my rant, because I was thinking.
00:22:08
red23
Yes, I have nothing to say to the other points.
00:22:09
El Platypo
yes
00:22:11
Jen
Because no, I think when I was thinking about it, I was like, that must be the reason like this. That's the only thing that came to mind is that he's sort of he's done his job now and now he's just like sacrificing himself and so he's not going to bother fighting. um
00:22:23
red23
Yeah, she also they have that like marquee history, so maybe that with mis some misplaced loyalty maybe even before.
00:22:23
El Platypo
and
00:22:28
El Platypo
Now, I want to pivot on that point, right because you' you've a number of points of your things, which I think intersect with that really interestingly, if I'm not sounding like too much of a consultancy wanker, but that that fact that you know they've got that history and that is used by sesca to set the perfect trap and the point is made that sesca is a unique advisor and i'd i'd like you to talk about i'd like to take this opportunity given you mentioned that to ask you to talk about those things if you can tell us about them because i find i find those fascinating
00:23:04
El Platypo
And also, you know, I could put on my ah HR change lead person hat and say, we haven't got enough corporate jargon. And there's a key example here of cross-fertilization of expertise yielding profitable business results here. If I wanted to sound like the wanker that I am at work on the podcast, which I would do. And I'll see you to talk to us about these points.
00:23:26
red23
Well, I'm gonna try to tease out what the question that there is, but yes, I wrote a few things.
00:23:30
El Platypo
Tell us about the trap and Seska being back.
00:23:32
red23
Yes, yes, yes.
00:23:33
El Platypo
And I'm doing jazz hands as I say that.
00:23:35
red23
um well i Well, I hope I can get this correct now. So because, i'm but i I love the way, you know, the episode starts and there's like a beacon and it's a Starfleet beacon or something. And so they're like, oh, how did this get here? And they do a bit of digging and it's like, it would have been sent after they left. So could it be related to a rescue effort?
00:23:54
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:23:54
red23
And they're slowly being lured into this area.
00:23:58
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:23:58
red23
And then there happens to be like this storm or mist or whatever, just they can't see it. So they're a bit cautious, they don't go in. They immediately like come under attack.
00:24:04
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:24:05
red23
And as this kind of attack evolves, you start to realize that there's kind of some kind of genius behind it, like someone's spot already knowing.
00:24:08
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:24:11
red23
And then the reveal is that it's, you know, then you know it's a case on, but then the reveal when Seska comes on screen and you're like, ah, she's the genius behind this.
00:24:20
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:24:20
red23
is Like, I thought that was, I really did enjoy that because
00:24:22
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:24:24
red23
I mean, maybe it's because I have watched it before and I know that she plays as like really great villain from what I remember. I mean, um and also again, like, you know, there just weren't that many female villains on TV at the time when the show was on.
00:24:36
Jen
Thank
00:24:40
red23
So, um and I think she is kind of like a ah favorite character amongst people who watched Voyager.
00:24:42
El Platypo
and
00:24:45
Jen
you.
00:24:47
red23
um And I mean, there's a lot to say about her and maybe I'll say more about her later, but I just thought that was a very good reveal because She obviously knows him so well. She knows how to lure them. She knows how to modulate their weapons to the shield frequency.
00:24:59
El Platypo
It positions her as a villain of skill.
00:25:02
red23
Yeah, exactly. And she has to deal with these dumb caissons, which get in her way. Like it must be very frustrating for her because she's much smarter than them and much more ambitious than them. But she's manipulating everyone to try and get what she wants, which I think is just revenge on Voyager. But yeah.
Friendship and Tactical Decisions
00:25:20
El Platypo
Yeah, I agree with that. And I'd almost sort of like to pivot in the face of that, because one of the things that I noticed was we have Cisco position in this way, masterful manipulator, as you put in the comment, but maybe didn't talk about quite as much because I ruined it by saying, you know, cross fertilization of expertise leading to profitable business results.
00:25:22
Jen
Thank you.
00:25:41
El Platypo
and She's positioned as someone who knows how Maquis, Starfleet and Cardassian units operate and that tactical approach and as someone who uses that extremely adroitly.
00:25:50
red23
Tactics work, you know.
00:25:57
El Platypo
I was just sort of struck by the fact that everything that Chakotay tries to do back to to get the technology back and to get himself out of the situation he seems almost to be using seska's tricks back to her and i wonder about the tactical sense of that given the fact that seska you know knows their tricks you know for instance the close range tool in order to actually destroy the transporter technology that she had used herself previously. And I just wondered what Yorgos take on that was, because it sort of puts Shikoshi in this sort of box of someone, yet very, very honor driven, but not someone very good at, I don't know, coming up with the unorthodox, if that makes sense, which is quite a weird one for a marquee senior officer to be placed in that particular box.
00:26:53
red23
What do you think, Jenny?
00:26:55
Jen
I think it's a really good question. and I mean, I guess he was actually successful in what he was trying to achieve. And, you know, at first when he, you know, but she was quite, I mean, I just think they were both quite clever with their tactics.
00:27:07
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:27:10
Jen
Like he did manage to get there in time to destroy the transport unit.
00:27:11
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:27:15
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:27:15
Jen
She did work out a way to observe where the shuttle was and work out immediately that it was him. but not in time to stop him achieving his aim. um I guess they're kind of, maybe they're kind of equal from a tactical point of view, because she's got the added bonus of the Cardassian tactics as well.
00:27:34
El Platypo
Mm.
00:27:34
Jen
But he, as you say, was a senior officer in the marquee and Starfleet. It's the battle of the tactics.
00:27:39
El Platypo
Mm.
00:27:41
Jen
What do you think, Red?
00:27:42
red23
Yeah, I thought they were quite well pitched.
00:27:43
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:27:44
red23
Is that the right, like, because she pulled off this like, coup, well, this hit and run, dine and dash at the beginning.
00:27:50
El Platypo
yeah Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:51
red23
um And then he managed to, as you say, he did use her own tactics. I mean, he literally used her own tactics that she'd used before.
00:27:58
El Platypo
Mm.
00:27:59
red23
Um, but he was, I think he was so focused on destroying the technology. As you said, Jamie, he wasn't thinking beyond that. So, and as Jenny said, he was successful in that way.
00:28:05
El Platypo
I guess, yeah. I suppose part of me is maybe didn't give him as much credit as that because he ended up in my own personal idea of hell, which is being held and beaten up slash tortured by interrogators, um who happen to be aliens as well. um Why that should strike such a horror bell for me, I have absolutely no idea, but it is my own sort of
00:28:29
red23
Boarding
00:28:30
Jen
Thank
00:28:31
El Platypo
There were no aliens there, so I can't really understand the parallel that you're drawing there, Red, um with with all due respect to those of our alien listeners who go to British public schools. um or indeed went given the age demographic we all are to say nothing the human ones but yeah it's it's an interesting one I hadn't rated his performance that highly on this one um so he wasn't going to be my start player but I I really yeah
00:28:55
red23
school? I don't
00:28:57
Jen
you
00:28:59
red23
know.
00:29:03
El Platypo
At this stage, I've slightly lost my train at the various points, but that's okay because I feel like all of us are circling around those. I did sort of like your thought, Red, though, about the fact that The episode starts with Chikote and Belanna having ah played what seems like a rigorous game. but Is it hoverboard or hoverball?
00:29:25
red23
Have a ball.
00:29:27
El Platypo
Hoverball, very important distinction.
00:29:27
red23
Have a ball.
00:29:29
El Platypo
Hoverboard, a completely different sport. It's like comparing rugby to rugby league. um And Chikote teases Belanna with the suggestion that he would have beaten her because he'd psychologically psychologically manipulated her into tensing up, which really feels like the entire dynamic of this episode if if I'm reading your point right.
00:29:51
red23
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:51
El Platypo
i was wondering if Is that your read honest or am I not doing it particular justice?
00:29:55
red23
Well, I, no, exactly. I mean, I did like that, that moment because it's at the beginning and they obviously come in, they're interrupted, they're matched and they're in their sports gear, which I like to see. it not uniform Um, and she had like a rap.
00:30:05
Jen
Thank you.
00:30:06
El Platypo
which which
00:30:11
red23
Anyway, it doesn't matter. But, um, yeah, he's like,
00:30:14
El Platypo
Let's do the Sartorials later, Red.
00:30:15
red23
Yeah. You know, as you said, he was like, yeah, I was going to beat you because you were tensing up. And then she like starts freaking out.
00:30:20
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:30:21
red23
And she's like, he's like, it's just a half a ball game match or whatever, which kind of proves his point, something like that.
00:30:24
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:30:26
red23
And then like about midway during the episode, there's that kind of echo of that again, because Balana is cautioning him that he might be being manipulated by Seska.
00:30:36
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:30:38
red23
And this is before he decides to go off on his own. So unfortunately, this words of wisdom didn't land but she says like to him don't tense up or don't be you know like you're kind of being controlled by your emotions now and he's he almost jokes I think because he's like am I being um kind of lectured on my emotions by and a Klingon I guess essentially um yeah so I like that I thought the placement of that moment was a bit like normally that kind of full circle thing would happen at the end but I did like the moment and that they have this kind of friendship where they can speak so frankly and
00:30:42
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:30:51
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:30:58
Jen
I know.
00:31:03
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:31:12
El Platypo
And the captain comments on that as well, saying that Chiquote is unbelievably lucky to have a friend as good as she is, when Chiquote is about as far into the doghouse with hers he can get, and Bologna is basically worrying that he's going to be left to his fate.
00:31:12
red23
Oh, yeah.
00:31:13
Jen
and
00:31:24
red23
Yeah.
00:31:30
red23
Yeah, exactly.
00:31:30
Jen
Uh
00:31:32
red23
yeah she's not yeah I don't want to give anything away about my star player.
00:31:38
El Platypo
Interesting.
00:31:39
red23
Interesting.
00:31:40
El Platypo
Now, I knew that I've gone through this in a slightly random way, and I've sort of picked out what I want folk to talk about, because of course I'm directive, x-cocks and everything like that, and devastated you didn't feel...
00:31:53
red23
Oh, the directorate you is coming out.
00:31:56
El Platypo
No, devastated...
00:31:56
red23
Having flashbacks to you on your knees with a clapper at that party.
00:31:56
Jen
-huh.
00:32:00
El Platypo
I mean that just sounds like I was in a really weird sex party of red, which is just not where I want to be positioned.
00:32:03
Jen
that awesome
00:32:05
red23
I think clapper.
00:32:06
Jen
ah
00:32:06
red23
Another thing for the film when they're like, cut.
00:32:07
El Platypo
the film The film, yeah.
00:32:08
Jen
Oh my goodness, Taylor!
00:32:09
El Platypo
I was actually thinking when I was, you know, above you in the chain of commanders, Cox of Roingate long, long ago, um but I sort of opened the floor to your good selves. We've broadly brushed through the points, but are there any that you haven't mentioned that you want to talk about? Ooh, Jenny's hand sprung up, says he, in the line that has bought numerous Zoom meetings to order.
00:32:28
Jen
Well, no, i I would just like to say ah I would just like to say that I'm very grateful to you guys for, you know, I was really struggling to find anything to add to my top moments for this episode, but that's why it's great to hear your opinions on stuff because, um you know, the whole ah sort of, um I guess, motivations behind Milana's and Chicoge's behavior is really interesting to your opinions on those.
00:32:32
El Platypo
Ooh, go, go, go.
00:32:41
El Platypo
Mm.
00:32:55
Jen
And um also, I think Red, I don't know if we've properly touched on it, but I think in some of your notes, um you'd mentioned the whole scene at the beginning about how they managed to successfully um achieve their plan of getting the transporter. It's just so well executed, like it's so well planned, and then it's executed exactly according to plan and exactly the timings work out.
00:33:13
red23
Yes.
00:33:14
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:33:14
red23
Yes.
00:33:19
Jen
And um it's been this sort of all these different tactical details.
00:33:19
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:33:23
Jen
ah And I can really appreciate that. Like that is definitely a highlight of the answer for me.
00:33:26
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:33:27
red23
Yes. And I mean, it's almost like a little mini heist from the fact that they actually modified the bow or whatever of their own ship so that they would like pierce the hull of Voyager.
00:33:31
El Platypo
Hmm.
00:33:31
Jen
Mmm.
00:33:35
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:33:38
red23
um
00:33:38
El Platypo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:33:39
red23
Yeah, maybe it didn't say enough about that, but I did enjoy, it was just like watching a like a very slick heist. You're like, oh no.
00:33:45
Jen
Yeah.
00:33:45
red23
ah I mean, for happening to people that you care about, but still entertaining.
00:33:47
El Platypo
and
00:33:50
Jen
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:51
red23
Yeah.
00:33:52
El Platypo
Interesting. Rhett, do you have anything you'd like to mention?
00:33:55
red23
Yes, I have a question.
00:33:58
El Platypo
who
00:33:59
red23
Can we, no, no, no, go ahead.
00:33:59
El Platypo
I've never seen... Oh, sorry, go for it. I was going to say I've never seen Seska's Mole.
00:34:06
red23
Oh yes, oh yes. Okay, I do have more to say, but first question. ah Because, you know, we've talked about the space date time format, which just rolls over me completely meaninglessly. We've never really spoken about, like, initiate evasive paths in Omega 3 or Delta 4 or Omega 2. What? um mean I know what my impression of that means. Like, I imagine that someone has learned, like, okay, Omega 3 means, I don't know, turn left, ah pick up the speed, go to warp after two minutes or something.
00:34:30
El Platypo
Go left.
00:34:34
red23
I don't know. but ah Does the captain have to know all these patterns? Does the con have to know, like Paris have to know all these patterns? Or how do you imagine it working the same way? I've just never really discussed this out loud with anyone.
00:34:50
El Platypo
I understand the question innately, and I used to always take those moments as just sort of red in, ah hopefully, every science fiction
00:34:50
Jen
i have about that
Seska's Manipulation and Plot Twists
00:35:04
El Platypo
program that I saw.
00:35:06
El Platypo
But as you said out loud, you'd imagine the captain needs to know what pattern they're asking for, because they need to know and be able to instruct how they want to escape the situation.
00:35:12
Jen
I also don't know about that.
00:35:18
El Platypo
person on the receiving end probably needs to understand what that means so at least two folk need to know what the hell it means as opposed to just get out of here unless unless the person at the con can just put in evasive pattern omega 3 and the computer does it ah which I don't really know
00:35:37
red23
I never thought of that.
00:35:41
El Platypo
and
00:35:41
red23
Good point.
00:35:42
Jen
in a way that might be safer because it's more random because if every Starfleet cadet is learning the same patterns it's not very uh yeah it's a good question
00:35:51
El Platypo
I mean, we don't know what this pattern means. It won't just mean go left. They're coming from the right. I don't know. Maybe our viewers know. Do any of our viewers know what evasive pattern Omega 3 or Delta 4 are?
00:36:05
red23
Well, they can get in touch if they do.
00:36:07
El Platypo
If they ever get in touch, Red. If they ever get in touch. Sorry, Jamie. Sorry, I don't know why that took me to a slightly whimsical moment in my life. Will anyone ever get in touch?
00:36:19
red23
Yeah, I just wanted to know what was going through anyone else's mind, I guess.
00:36:19
El Platypo
No. Sorry, but I cut of across you, Red, and you were telling us about that. And yeah, it's a really interesting question. We need far more sort of technical geekery on these, I think.
00:36:33
red23
um
00:36:33
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:36:34
Jen
Well, I often have that same question. In fact, every time they say the basic patterns, like so You know, you're in good company Red, but unfortunately I don't have an answer.
00:36:41
red23
Oh, okay.
00:36:43
Jen
I think, oh, there must be a button.
00:36:44
red23
But you must have, you must have a concept of what is happening, I guess. And is it similar to what we kind of just got, like a known pattern?
00:36:51
Jen
Yeah, I mean, it's just what you said.
00:36:52
red23
Yeah.
00:36:53
Jen
Yeah, I just assumed that they had a whole range of patterns that they have to learn to to manage the cotton and then, um you know.
00:37:01
El Platypo
My process improvement head says that they're needlessly overcomplicating it.
00:37:08
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:37:09
red23
there's no There's no freelance consultants in 2024. um
00:37:14
El Platypo
Although, no, one can imagine there not being at that stage of Starfleet, but later on one can imagine there were.
00:37:14
Jen
Okay.
00:37:17
red23
2024. two thousand
00:37:21
El Platypo
I can imagine the idea that the solution to the Mars problem is to ban synthetic life being a consultant, not a consultant, but a solution straight from McKinsey or Bain.
00:37:34
El Platypo
Definitely imagine that. Right. Have we, are we, are we close to, have we done our things?
00:37:40
red23
Janie's got something.
00:37:40
El Platypo
Oh, journey, journey, journey.
00:37:42
Jen
ah yeah because i do feel like we can't end without talking about the end the surprise
00:37:47
El Platypo
Yeah, I was hoping to avoid this.
00:37:49
red23
Oh yes, maybe maybe I'll go first and then um because I think my point, I don't really have that much to say say about it, but um yeah.
00:37:49
Jen
ah operara
00:37:52
Jen
like
00:37:53
El Platypo
For the viewers, would you care to recount the ending?
00:38:02
red23
No, but I'm gonna go first and then she'll work out the ending um because just chronologically it makes sense.
00:38:03
Jen
Yeah,
00:38:08
red23
um
00:38:09
Jen
because I do feel like we can't end without talking about the ending, the surprise.
00:38:09
red23
So I just wanted to just once say yeah I know that scene obviously where he hit you or touched you Jamie the torture scene where Shikote is getting beaten up and yes it was not fun to watch but he really plays quite dirty with the Kazon by referring back to his relationship with Kiz um Feska sorry not Kiz um and I thought there was some like kind of slightly risque for child viewing comments Uh, so when he, cause he's like kind of, you know, alluding to the fact that Jessica told that him that he liked Cody was great and gave him all this kind of affection.
00:38:44
red23
And he says the word sex, which I was like, whoa, boy.
00:38:46
El Platypo
I've never heard that on Star Trek.
00:38:47
Jen
Oh, pretty.
00:38:49
red23
No, I don't heard that. And then, um, You know what my favorite part is? Like this mole in his stomach and he probably gets punched in the face and then he's like, well, I guess you've seen it because obviously it wouldn't have hit the mark, his comment.
00:38:58
Jen
and
00:39:01
red23
So I just thought he really, maybe leaning into his marquee side there a bit, to really rile the caisson color guy up.
00:39:06
Jen
ah
00:39:06
El Platypo
Yeah, definitely.
00:39:11
El Platypo
Yeah. No, I completely agree with that, actually. It's unusually sort of... manipulative for Star Trek, and unusually sort of... I dunno, it doesn't...
00:39:12
red23
um And yeah, just sort of interesting side to him and some surprising dialogue for which I would just chime in.
00:39:17
El Platypo
yeah
00:39:22
red23
Maybe, maybe not.
00:39:23
El Platypo
i completely agree with that actually it's unusually sort of manipulative for start trek um and unusually source of i just know it doesn't It brings home the desperation of the situation that Shikote is in because it's so out of character for the series as a whole. um But then there are some pretty brutal moments in that.
00:39:45
red23
Good point.
00:39:47
El Platypo
like to Frankly, two individuals getting teleported out just into the dead of space because they piss off um the Maj is also pretty horrendous.
00:39:58
red23
Oh yes, that's pretty brutal.
00:40:00
Jen
and
00:40:02
red23
Pretty brutal.
00:40:03
El Platypo
Yeah. But anyway, Jenny, you you had something to say to comment on the ending.
00:40:08
Jen
Oh, yeah, well, I just felt, you know, it it needed to be discussed and I wanted to know what you guys thought about it as well. I think, you know, we all know what I think. I i felt like it was just the cherry on ah an ah absurd episode.
00:40:21
red23
Oh. A very bad Sunday.
00:40:22
Jen
like exactly
00:40:24
red23
I don't know.
00:40:25
Jen
Exactly. You know, to have this like, same proper twist at the end, where she announces that she's impregnated herself with his DNA. And also, again, another thing where I'm just like, would you really do that? I mean, she's on this alien ship, where she's in a relationship with the leader. um you know, she's already, her life is sort of hanging in the balance over there and then now she's gonna get pregnant by another man. Seems extremely risky and a very strange decision.
00:40:56
red23
Well, yes, and now that you point it out, it is quite a superb ending, I agree. um But A, can we trust her? I mean, regardless of it, it is different. And that doesn't negate the fact that of the ending. ah B, this is just another opportunity for me to touch on the fact that we've already said it, but she is this master manipulator, can sense what everyone wants. ahs and then uses that to get what she wants, um which we saw with Kala and stuff, where she's like, she wants him to cooperate with people, which is very against the Kazon way, and then she's making it seem like it's for him, and really it's for her.
00:41:37
red23
Anyway, I'm going on a bit of a tangent, just wanted to say that, but um B, I think, I 100% get what you're saying, like, yes, that was quite a soap opera ending for Star Trek, but it kind of lays the foundation for more
00:41:38
Jen
Let me have.
00:41:51
red23
Contact, I guess, from a storytelling perspective, ah purely. I mean, it's like a way for the writers to make their life more easy, not not for the ending to be non-suboperary, I guess.
00:41:56
Jen
Yeah.
00:42:04
Jen
Yeah. And actually, you know, you've you've given me another thought about is that that you mentioning about o A, can we trust her? Because um say that it was just made up. um Actually, in fact, I can see why she would do that. It's just a case of she wants there to still be a link between her and Voyager. And she knows, if she knows Shikote something about his character, for example, that the idea of having um a progeny someday, which seems to kind of fit with his whole kind of like tribal, um i you know, importance of building a tribe around you, that kind of that would kind of make sense in its character.
00:42:41
red23
Mmm.
00:42:42
Jen
And so she's again, as you said before, she's using her manipulative powers playing on something that she knows is important to him, thinking that they'll have to come after her. um So yeah, I mean, maybe there's there's a little character motivation there behind that ah ending.
00:43:01
El Platypo
I mean, I'm just sort of struck by the fact that in the interaction in which she is supposed to have taken the genetic material, she gets it from his neck. And I'm a bit like, has someone told the producers of Star Trek and they're right as how the birds and the bee
Character Development and Ethical Layers
00:43:16
El Platypo
bees happen?
00:43:16
red23
Uh, as I said earlier, it was 2024, but it's actually not 2024, it's 2400, right? So, um, I've...
00:43:23
Jen
Thank
00:43:24
El Platypo
um but yes and and also i i again it just it really didn't feel for me like
00:43:25
red23
They have...
00:43:28
Jen
you.
00:43:34
El Platypo
Yeah, it does exactly what you've said, Red, in terms of a plot device. But it felt really out of character with Star Trek for me. I don't know. Yeah. that That was basically my thoughts on it. ah he um It was an interesting ending there. And it does, as you say, completely, completely beg the question of when will we see Seska next? And how will she use this to mess Chikote around next?
00:44:03
red23
Yeah, that's all I think.
00:44:05
El Platypo
Yeah.
00:44:05
red23
Agreed.
00:44:05
El Platypo
But no, um, is it time for Starplay? Or a few more thoughts?
00:44:09
red23
I think, yeah, themes don't stop me. I think I'm a lot of thoughts. I don't know about you, Jenny.
00:44:14
Jen
No, that sounds good. yeah
00:44:18
El Platypo
Theme as it is then?
00:44:21
red23
um I'm happy to go first, because it's concerning Jenny He did this episode.
00:44:26
Jen
and Yeah, I failed to um ah think of these beforehand, so you go ahead, Redwyn, I'll think.
00:44:27
red23
I don't know if she has a theme.
00:44:33
red23
Okay.
00:44:34
Jen
like
00:44:34
red23
I mean, I don't think it was a strong, yeah, I think, I mean, I guess maybe someone else will pick up on a more stronger theme, but I did like the theme of friendship and Balana and Shakurty's friendship specifically and the way Balana went to bat for him at, you know, speaking to a captain on his behalf, because she was like, Oh, he'll never tell you these things.
00:44:50
El Platypo
Mmm.
00:44:55
red23
I'm trying to explain why he's done what he's done so that when he's back, he doesn't you know there's some context for his actions and also she kind of even though it didn't work and there's that plot hole she was the one who kind of came up with a plan to rescue him initially and she pushed for him to be rescued so yeah for those reasons i would say belana has messed up here oh no sorry i've just done two in one i mean that's the theme
00:45:00
El Platypo
Mmm. Mmm.
00:45:17
El Platypo
Yeah. I mean, I slightly... No, no, no, but this is it.
00:45:23
Jen
You can do two in one, it's fine.
00:45:24
El Platypo
This is it. It's organic. We're riffing.
00:45:25
red23
yeah
00:45:26
El Platypo
It's fine.
00:45:26
Jen
Yeah, now we know we all do two in one.
00:45:27
El Platypo
It's fine. And it it works quite nicely. It's brought out jazz hands in me, which is fine. I would like to sort of comment on that sort of theme and embellish on it a little bit in that I also think Bolana picks up on something which I often think of as something that's necessary to being a good friend, which is sometimes you have to make a choice to reveal something about a friend for a friend that they wouldn't necessarily want to allow to be revealed for themselves because what one could imagine Shikote feeling that that being revealed is a boundary cross that he wouldn't have wanted but yet Balana does it and I think we consider her a better friend for it.
00:46:13
El Platypo
I don't know though.
00:46:14
red23
Yeah, interesting.
00:46:15
El Platypo
Well what are your thoughts on that? Is that a fair read on that situation or am I reading too much?
00:46:23
Jen
It's an interesting one because um I think that's just probably showing our different characters of of ourselves, Jamie, because and I'd be i be with Chikote on that one. i like ah I think the importance of friendship in that scenario is to know that you can trust um the other person with these personal details, um even when they think it's in everyone's best interests to reveal them. You know that they won't reveal them because they're a loyal friend. But I do understand where you're coming from. Like, I can appreciate that, you know, there might be scenarios where, um, like this story, you know, Belanna felt it was a good idea to tell Janeway some personal details. Sorry, go on, Red.
00:47:10
red23
Yeah, I I was gonna say, yeah, because I think in this case, it's not like she said, Chakotay told me this. She was like, he would never tell anyone this, but this is how I read the situation. And that's why you should give him a bit of... What's the word I'm looking for? I can't remember. Like, not be too harsh on him.
00:47:27
Jen
like leeway yeah yeah yeah so she wasn't really revealing a secret it was more just like these are my opinions they could be wrong so in a way that's fine to reveal that
00:47:28
El Platypo
leeway.
00:47:28
red23
Yeah, yeah.
00:47:34
red23
Yeah.
00:47:39
red23
But she also did say he's super private so I think there's a mix of those two.
00:47:43
El Platypo
Fascinating.
00:47:44
red23
Yeah.
00:47:46
El Platypo
Thank you. um Yeah. I mean, that was my only sort of embroider theme. Would you before Jenny, would you like to do your themes and sub player or would you like give my sub player first and then to you for themes and stop there?
00:48:01
Jen
yeah I'm good, I've had time to consider, so I have some ideas now. I think in terms of themes, it's something that Red kind of mentioned earlier, um but it's this whole ah like dichotomy of like the Vulcan approach of not letting your emotions rule you. um Obviously you can go too far the other way, and you know sometimes you have to trust your gut. so um I think there's that whole like argument throughout that Balana and Shikote have the discussion about. and um Then also, again, I think this happens a lot in Star Trek, but just the whole theme around technology and use of technology and controlling of technology to avoid it causing issues like with the Ks on. Like if they had one Ks on fact that had transporter technology from Voyager, that could cause all kinds of trouble.
00:48:58
Jen
um so those are my two themes and um my star player um i was gonna be a bit left field i was thinking maybe i'll just say say something like um the doctor because he is not in it my
00:49:08
red23
Oh, yeah.
00:49:13
red23
Who had a holiday?
00:49:14
El Platypo
The only one who doesn't fuck up and disobey orders the entire episode.
00:49:18
red23
Maybe had a role in a movie at the same time or something.
00:49:19
Jen
reasoning is that um i really felt the loss of him in this episode, there was just a total lack of comedy, and I think if someone, an actor or actress, can um have that kind of impact, then you know they're doing a great job.
00:49:26
red23
Oh.
00:49:36
red23
I am sure Robert Picardo. Is that his name? Yeah, it's OK with that.
00:49:40
El Platypo
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:40
Jen
thanks
00:49:41
red23
Would love to hear that. That's a good choice.
00:49:44
El Platypo
yeah um May I give my star players? I don't know that at this stage my facilitation ends and I sort of hand the torch back, but I would like to tip the hat to the two Kaison who are on the ram ship who managed to get in steal the goods, get out clean. No one else in the quadrant has managed to lay a hand on Voyager.
00:50:07
Jen
hi
00:50:12
El Platypo
I think we have to respect that.
00:50:12
red23
Yes. Yes.
00:50:14
Jen
That's a great choice. yeah
00:50:15
red23
Thank you for bringing up the moment because that, yeah, we've described lots of moments of that heist and that was the final moment where they just like in, grab the thing, use the transporter to get back to their ship. I'm like, oh my gosh, these guys are good.
00:50:26
Jen
Yeah.
00:50:26
El Platypo
yes Oh, they were good.
00:50:28
Jen
Smooth running machine.
00:50:28
red23
Slash. Yeah.
00:50:31
El Platypo
ah sosus
00:50:31
red23
So fair enough. they They're the baddies, but fair enough.
00:50:35
El Platypo
Yeah. No worries. I think we're there, are we? Is that us?
00:50:39
red23
We there. Thank you, Jamie. Brilliant facilitation.
00:50:41
Jen
and
00:50:41
El Platypo
No. No worries.
00:50:43
Jen
Don't forget the jingle.
00:50:43
El Platypo
Winning at life. Is it time for the jingle? Don't forget the jingle.
00:50:46
red23
It's time for the jingle.
00:50:48
El Platypo
Dance party, dance party, dance party, dance party.
00:50:48
Jen
Crack out those dancing shoes!
00:50:49
red23
I'm playing the jingle.
00:50:51
El Platypo
in
00:50:52
red23
Slow dance party, slow dance party.
00:50:54
El Platypo
new you new and you
00:50:59
red23
Meditative. Jane, that was an amazing head, head circle, head roll. I don't know.
00:51:11
red23
Bye.
00:51:14
El Platypo
Who's doing big fish little fish?