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We watch "Initiations" (S2 Ep.2)
15 Plays10 months ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Initiations" in which Chakotay leaves Voyager in order to honour his dead father. However, he accidently drifts into Kazon-Ogla space, where he encounters a young Kazon warrier desperate to earn his warrior name.
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Transcript
Intro and ASMR Joke
00:00:00
Speaker
um right welcome back yeah let's begin yes yeah let's begin um let's go nice nice it's just whispers like bucksy squirrels oh we could do a ASMR episode where we talk ready soothing me i can't talk that way
00:00:23
Speaker
The purpose of that is to help people fall asleep, which maybe our podcast has already, so we don't need to. We're going for SNR. Okay. So long, soothing sounding vowels and calm people to sleep so that they calm and go into their own place. And so when they finally go to sleep, we should go bang!
00:00:46
Speaker
Okay, so back, bring, thanks for bringing everyone back. Yes, yes, don't send them to sleep before we've only just started. Sorry. Yeah, so as I say, I can't always forget to
Summary of 'Initiations' Episode
00:00:57
Speaker
do this. But Jamie, do you want to explain what episode we're reviewing? I'll give you a one minute summary. Okay, so we are reviewing the second episode of season two Star Trek Voyager, called I believe Initiations.
00:01:15
Speaker
My summary of the episode in less than one minute, delivered in the mind of a teenage boy, is Chikote enables the traditional cazon practice of turning children into child soldiers but manages to somehow be positioned to look badass while doing this and enabling the practice to continue to the advantage of someone who he beat in battle who happened to be a teenager.
00:01:43
Speaker
Very good. Can't say anymore. Oh, you're speechless. Child warriors that they touched on. Star Trek Ray does touch a lot. He touches the deep stuff.
Community Shoutouts
00:01:58
Speaker
And I gather from one of our fans who made themself known to you that we talk about the deep stuff, so it's important we continue that.
00:02:04
Speaker
Shout out to Karen. Thank you for your feedback. Oh, we have a name. Red, you weren't willing to tell us who it was when you told us about this before. Karen, hello. And it is wonderful to hear that we have a listener. Red has told me before that we have them, but I've been convinced it's StitchUp up until now.
00:02:24
Speaker
Oh my gosh, I already hope she was into this episode now. But yes, do you want to shout out to any states in America? I mean, I gather we have a follower in Hawaii and a light dusting of blue in Oregon, whatever that means to do with our listeners, but hello to all of you.
00:02:44
Speaker
I am the least podcast-y person on the planet and I remain convinced that this is an elaborate thought trap that Red is playing on me. It just greets some non-existent viewers and listeners just to make me sound like even more of a pompous arse than this accent makes me sound. But hello all the same, make yourself known. We'd love to hear who you are and what possessed you to listen to two incredibly intelligent people in one recharge. Sorry, one very silly person.
00:03:14
Speaker
very entitled. Please edit my self-reference out of that. And yeah, we hope you enjoy our take on this very enjoyable episode. Oh, that was brilliant, Jamie. I mean, I'm not going to do any editing, but I was going to say... I'll get cancelled. Why who? I was going to say... I'll list those in Oregon. What was I going to say? Oh my God, I've gone pang. One cool thing.
00:03:42
Speaker
That was so not rehearsed. Shall we start? Yeah, but I have
Jingles and Podcast Style
00:03:51
Speaker
one cool thing. So I did ask my brother to make some jingles or make a jingle for our podcast so we can have an intro and outro. And I think I've managed to load them up onto the soundboard so we can have a listen. I think I've not actually tried this. I should have actually tried this before we came on the call. I think I can hear it as we go.
00:04:18
Speaker
for those of you who can't see red is index finger dancing
00:04:29
Speaker
I like this one. It's very upbeat. You know, when you said jingle, I thought it was going to be something like a, like a kitty litter ad with someone singing. Oh, no, I just didn't like it. Musical intro, musical answer. That's the next rung of celebrity that we need to clone. So the second one, I've only got two, because we will have to decide. And if you have any feedback, you can give us that to me after the call. I think it will start playing now, because I just did what I did last time. Here we go.
00:05:10
Speaker
Maybe at the end, when people are asleep, I'm going to be the musical author. Ironically, given what you just said, when I started hearing this, for whatever reason, I was reminded of Insomnia by Faithless.
00:05:24
Speaker
Ah, one of my favourites. I really like that, but I do feel like it's quite serious. I'm not sure how much it matches the character of the podcast. Which is exactly why we should go for it. We need every form of Baroque, Rocco Coco over the top Pombre to offset the rather tongue-in-cheek take that we have on Star Trek to avoid me getting cancelled for not taking this sacred material seriously enough. Well, back to the jingle. I think I like number one.
00:05:53
Speaker
And I can ask him to make like a shorter version because I think currently it's 30 seconds. But, um, if everyone's happy with that. Sounds good. Yeah, but definitely shorter. Yeah. Yeah. I prefer it faithless. Well, faithless but the end. We can have an intro and an outro and they don't have to match because this is our podcast and they can do what we like. Um, right. So initial reactions of initiations.
Initial Reactions to 'Initiations'
00:06:16
Speaker
Jenny, do you want to kick us off?
00:06:19
Speaker
I really don't on this one. I'm really hoping that someone else... I think I get what you're saying, like the first time I watched it I was like, I'm not really feeling it, but then we had that gap and then I had to watch it again and then I watched it again and then on each re-watching I kind of took
00:06:42
Speaker
more away from it if that makes sense. You watched it three times. Yeah because I watched it once last week to kind of make a summary then I had to watch the end to check the summary because I was using chat gbt which just likes to make up scenes which aren't in the show um and then I um so maybe I don't I can't remember but I definitely watched it at least twice or two and a half times um but then I was like I don't know maybe as we go through but my initial reaction was like I guess a bit
00:07:11
Speaker
probably what I'm seeing as a Star Trek, but a bit meh. But then as I rewatched it many times, I got more from it. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't that I disliked the episode. I guess some of the shows I just feel that have a lot to chat about and a lot to say. And for some reason, that was not the case with this one. But I don't think that means it was bad. I just think someone else should stop. Jamie?
00:07:39
Speaker
I don't answer questions. Yeah, you normally interrupt. You don't answer. I was like, wait, why aren't you talking? I'm so confused. Frankly read.
Themes of 'Initiations'
00:07:51
Speaker
I don't think that's any of your business. Sorry. I don't know why I've decided that I'm taking the police interrogation room approach to this one. Um, no, I actually enjoyed it. I felt I had a bit of boy's own adventure to it. Um,
00:08:08
Speaker
It wasn't for all of the fact that I tried to paint Star Trek with making someone enabling the practice of child soldiery look good as my summary of it. I didn't feel like it went into too many deep issues. It was just a bit more sort of a, I don't know.
00:08:28
Speaker
slightly Star Wars-y space romp more than most of the other Star Trek episodes I come across. So I quite like that. It was fun. There was elements of, there were elements of adventure without it seeming too serious. Um, yeah, I liked it actually. Oh, good. Yeah. I always liked Cazón hair as well. I don't know why. I always, I always wanted to boof like that. Honestly, I always think they remind me of like Walking Living Carl. I think I've said this before, but there's something about the hair.
00:08:57
Speaker
Um, okay. Well, I think in the teaser, the teaser sets up, um, the episode pretty well, but Jokote has been granted permission to form this ritual and to do that, he's taken a shuttle. Um, um, but he kind of drifts into his own obvious space. But I thought before we get into the, like, um, you know, what happens next, any comments on the ritual or, um, like, Oh, I love the format of Jokote's prayers.
00:09:26
Speaker
I know that sounds like a really weird thing to say, but I really like that sort of that there's almost an an unpresumptuousness about the format of acknowledging how far it is from the traditional underpinnings of what were presumably the origins of whatever his faith system and structure were and that humbleness to ask a favor of whatever the local spirit
00:09:53
Speaker
is to do something as a kind and benevolent favour and I really sort of like the nature of that prayer. It always strikes me as both dignified, simple but meaningful as well. Yeah I thought you would probably have more to say about that than I did because I had nothing to say about it.
00:10:14
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a really nice perspective and comment. He is kind of this, this ritual is abruptly kind of interrupted. Yes. Do you want to explain what happens, Jamie? Well, I'm sure I'll get the sequence wrong, but as he's sort of preparing for this, we're juxtaposed with
00:10:38
Speaker
a caisson vessel noticing and being angry about the fact there was a Star Trek vessel flaunting it and they make a big deal of this. They're badges, how dare they wear their badges in all the territory and effectively the scene is set for
00:10:57
Speaker
this child caisson to go and try and shoot it down as part of his manhood initiation ritual. And I think there's actually quite a nice juxtaposition of the two different cultures, rituals, one of which is initiation into manhood, one which is in some respects a bit of a goodbye in the goodbye to his father. And I think that sets us up for rather a nice
00:11:27
Speaker
plots, elements and mechanism of contrast between the two cultural value systems throughout this episode, which makes me think I was perhaps a bit premature and dismissing it as not particularly deep and meaningful. But I do like the fact that you have the serenity of Chakotay undertaking his ritual, just absolutely interrupted by bang, phaser fire or weapons fire hitting a shuttle.
00:11:53
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think you described that brilliantly. And then I just enjoyed the one line where, I guess, Chuck Cote makes contact with this young Cazun boy and he's like,
00:12:01
Speaker
he's like, listen son, what are you doing? And then this kid replies, I'm not your son, I'm your executioner. Which is a good line, I would say. This is probably a completely unnecessary kind of tangent, but I can't help but wonder when things like that happen where he uses the word of son,
00:12:25
Speaker
how this universal translator, it must be incredibly good, like incredibly good. I mean, in some languages, maybe they don't even have a word for that phrase. Obviously, son in its direct sense means, you know, your male biological child, but he's not using it in that sense.
00:12:47
Speaker
And so how does that translate? But obviously the kid Karl understood it exactly as he meant it in that kind of like, kind of condescending, oh, I'm a bit older than you, I know better. You listen to me, son. Yeah, I was just a thought. I just thought, wow, they have an amazingly sensitive universal translator. That is a very, very good point. I didn't think of that at all. But yes,
00:13:18
Speaker
And then I think just to, this kid is on a mission to earn his name. And obviously, as you said, he's, that's by attacking Chakotay. So in, so that's the teaser. We go into act one and Chakotay is obviously once he realizes that he's fighting a younger, younger person, he's hesitant to engage in any kind of kind of serious confrontation, but he manages to disable the vessel, the K-zone's vessel, the engine, but it's up
00:13:46
Speaker
In doing so, I guess he triggers some kind of explosion, and so the K-Zon shuttle is about to explode. He uses his transporter beam to beam a car, which is the name of the K-Zon boy, out of it. I have to admit, I found this scene a little bit. It was sort of the slowest aerial space combat scene that I think I've seen in pretty much any franchise ever, and I was a bit like, this is clearly...
00:14:17
Speaker
Clearly a battle of dwarves in so far as space aerial combat goes. Yeah, I didn't I have to be honest, I did not pick that up. But they are just two little shuttles in the in the. Yeah, it's the motion. And then I think to go to before he rescues them, he is trying to communicate with them. And like, say, you know, you need to eject if you have an escape, you must use it now. And it's just like radio silence, which I guess is kind of hinting at the attitude of the person. I mean, either they they've disabled as in
00:14:46
Speaker
the unconscious or something, but they don't take self-preserving action and it's up to the Kote to kind of rescue this young Kato. I think he's unconscious when he then beams him, isn't he, initially? Oh my God, that's true, that's true. But even so, throughout the combat it's clear that Shikote has the upper hand and he's allowing
00:15:12
Speaker
car in fact allows him numerous opportunities to get out or stop fighting because he doesn't want to harm a child and because it's quite clear that he has both skill and vessel superiority and it's quite clear at the point that Red is making that the belief system that's driving car to this act doesn't really allow him many self-preservatory options
00:15:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, as Jane said, maybe he was actually unconscious, but he did, I think, as you say, have opportunities beforehand to try and rescue himself. So Shikote manages to beam him on board, but his shuttle has sustained damage. They've lost contact with Voyager. And the next scene takes us back to Voyager. Jamie, I feel like you're going to have a lot to say about this.
00:16:04
Speaker
Captain Janeway, Neelix, in her ready room. Go ahead. Oh, yes,
Neelix's Role on the Ship
00:16:08
Speaker
yes. Captain Janeway doing a saint's worthy job of patient stakeholder management. As Neelix tells her how he feels that having vowed to
00:16:26
Speaker
be the backbone of the crew as they drive to get out of the Delta quadrant and sweat himself to the bone he feels underutilized and the captain sort of flatters him saying why some of your recipes that they may even be edible is one of the things he says in praise of what he's doing and Neelik says I feel underutilized at which point the
00:16:54
Speaker
the captain says it was the fact that the bridge crew didn't invite you to the war training scenario. Well, since it was like, yes, that's exactly why. So much, because it's like, we're typical human, I mean, like, response, like, oh, they feel left out. So now they're complaining about something else. I love that she cuts to the chase. She's like, right, well, you'll be invited next time. Moving on. Yes.
00:17:24
Speaker
But in the middle of this, which sort of again, I have to suppress the urge to talk about the level of titanic self-delusion on Neelix's part that his complaints represent, both in terms of his own perception of his worth and ability levels. This is interrupted as the captain is informed that Chakoti is missing. Yes.
00:17:54
Speaker
Um, and I think that I've made very few notes here, but, um, security is reported missing. He hasn't returned, I guess at the expected time, if I remember correctly. And so Voyager plots, of course, to his last known coordinates and heads in that direction. Um, yeah. I have a question. Yeah. Do, do.
00:18:15
Speaker
Starfleet shuttles not have some sort of a tracker on them, or at least register where the hell they're going. Because you sort of think that if you're taking a shuttle out in the middle of space, when you're presumably going full blast for home, you wouldn't let folk know where you were going. Yeah, yeah, no, they do make reference to his flight plan. Yeah. I remember that. And I think usually they didn't have a tracker because they follow the
00:18:44
Speaker
I think it's later on they talk about his location and his flight plan.
00:18:50
Speaker
No, let's not indulge in the base art of picking holes in the plot. No, but also I think it's funny to see what people would thought of as advanced technology 20 years ago or more. I can't, I don't know. Versus like what is commonplace, what lands up in commonplace. Like tracking is pretty honest. Are you saying that Apple tech has outdistanced Starfleet tech? Well, until they put like that find me tag on a shuttle in space. Do you think that find me app on the photo work?
00:19:19
Speaker
Okay, he's on all the space. That's a quarter off. Yes, then we can find out. One thing I struggle with this episode is I can't really remember it. I have to really rely on my notes. I guess not a lot to start. Yeah, me too, actually. I'm using your notes right now, even though I just wanted to yesterday. Yeah. So we're back on the shuttle, Atakote shuttle with Kha, the young Kazon kid, and they encounter first Maj Razik's ship.
Chakotay and Kar's Dilemma
00:19:51
Speaker
And the car is already pretty tense. I just noted down that he says he has one line, I think, which is like, you should have let me die. So he's happy about seeing his potential rescuers from a normal perspective. As Kotei tries to, I think he makes contact, comms contact with the Kazon ship and is trying to negotiate the return of car. He's like, I've got this kid to put him back. And they just end up being, a tractor beam is beaming them the shuttle.
00:20:20
Speaker
Um, and, uh, Karl actually expresses a death reprieve for Chakotay to end his life, rather than think with him. And he explains that there are some things worth, worse than death, which is, you know, a good scene ender, because you want to get a hug. Good God, what's going to happen on the ship? What's worse than death? Very dramatic. I quite like the way that, I mean, a lot of this is seen through the teenage vista of,
00:20:49
Speaker
anything that goes wrong. It's the end of the world. You should have killed me. There was something worse than death. Literally everything. I mean, I sort of like that. Karl, the fact that actually, you know, under typical circumstances, he could have expected to be killed when Shikote brought him back only sort of adds an irony to it.
00:21:13
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there is that kind of teenage point of view, I guess, that he has, but because of the culture that he's in, but also, as we say, like, when you're that young, you can't see the point of having a long, happy life sometimes. You can't imagine yourself, you know, growing old. Maybe it's a different thing. So, yeah, I was gonna say...
00:21:38
Speaker
just gonna say I wish I wish they'd given us the name of the cazon ship because it's sort of it lacks an identity it's just the cazon ship oh yes sorry am i saying it too much cazon ship cazon ship can we can we assign it the codename something suitably dramatic like i don't know the blood reaver okay you can call it that i'll try remember okay jakoti and car are brought to the blood reaver yes
00:22:04
Speaker
And um exactly they brought to the blood river. I can't have so desperately try and explain why he's still alive to his superiors. Yeah. Waste no time in asking him that. Why are you still alive? Yeah and then um I really thought it was interesting because I think uh I can't like I'm relying heavily on my notes here but
00:22:24
Speaker
You know, they equate wearing markings in their, like, the space and acting as if they own the space. And like, these, these cases are really transferring a lot of their own thinking onto jakote. And cultural baggage. Yeah, it's like...
00:22:39
Speaker
wow you're really interpreting that very strongly a certain way and there's no real reason. And he's at some point he's apologizing saying well you know it was a genuine mistake because I didn't know there was nothing to tell me that this was your space and they say well no because their boundaries change on a daily basis. I'm not sure conflict is forever. What conflict level is there? Could you
00:23:03
Speaker
There's some high expectations here, expecting anyone to know where the boundaries are when they don't know what they are on a daily basis themselves. Very strange. Yeah, no, I mean, I think it was, I mean, I think, again, I think there are, I mean, there's evidence in human societies in history and now that there are people that think like this and there are people that are, I think, again, it's a lot of transferring of or assuming that- Nomadic cultural values. I know, I have no idea if it's that, but like,
00:23:33
Speaker
our territorial claims change every day. That is to ensure that violence can continue every day. That's not to reach a non-violent solution. Like that's like, they like wrapped up in the details of this, the, the regions rather than just being like, let's end this. And then, when I think Razik says, is it Razik, says like to Jokote, everything you are is a threat to us. And then he's like, your laws and technology. It's like, well, because laws and technology would end this fighting. So it's like, you know, like, um,
00:24:03
Speaker
Anyway, some people...
00:24:05
Speaker
want to fight? Well, I guess that makes sense. Because it's all I feel like this episode was all about like identity and you know, what gives you your identity or gives you your name. And I think in those situations, or so I've read perd been told, where there's just this conflict that's been ongoing for such a long time that unfortunately, then especially, you know, kids who brought up in that kind of conflict, that that conflict is a part of their identity.
00:24:35
Speaker
and therefore there's potentially a completely unconscious desire to continue it at all costs because it is, you know, it's them, it's who they are and they don't know who they are, don't know what to do outside of it.
00:24:51
Speaker
And maybe that's part of this, that's what's propelling it on Reddit as you're saying, like putting in devices, strategies that will ensure it continues, like the fact that no one ever knows where the boundaries are, so it'll always continue. Yeah, and I guess if you're interested in personal power, this system will appeal to you because you see a route perhaps to getting that by overcoming or killing your
00:25:18
Speaker
fellow, whatever. And it's a bit like when I look, when I listen to like medieval history or whatever, not, you know, like, it's like, Oh my God, I would never want to be in power. I would never want to be king because the minute you're a king, you're like at risk of everyone trying to like take you out. Just be a head off. Yeah. There's people that like, Oh, the risk is worth it because if I get to be king, I don't know, something great happens. You have some power or wealth or money. I'm like, to me, that does not seem worth it. Or maybe pre medieval history. I mean, I'm not a history expert, but
00:25:49
Speaker
Some people seem drawn to that way of, you know, getting power and I'm just like, doesn't seem worth it. Yeah. I guess things seem to justify the risks. It's hard to understand, but then maybe it's hard for us to understand because we weren't brought up in there. Yes, I like wrapped up in conflict.
00:26:14
Speaker
I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not thinking of current events, but like we have way more, we have way more to lose in a sense. Cause I mean, we have a nice life. We have stable life. We have, but if you've grown up in say medieval England, frauds during the hundred years war, life is unstable, fighting wars all the time. No, I don't know. Maybe I'm really mischaracterizing that, but then it's, uh,
00:26:42
Speaker
But I'm like, I already, yeah, I don't want to die. But yeah, so I thought, I thought that was a really, I guess by the third time I watched this, I was like, well, there's quite, quite a lot going on in this scene. And in the meantime, Voyager did arrive at Jakarta's last known coordinates, and they find some debris that could be a Starfleet shuttle. So they're like, you can see they're a bit concerned.
00:27:09
Speaker
this debris gets been to engineering for analysis and 2VUG picks up on an iron trail and so they followed that. And luckily when the debris is analyzed, Torus identifies it as Kazon, not Starfleet, so that's the key.
00:27:30
Speaker
Isn't there a stage, though, and I forget if it was this scene or another scene, but in which the... Oh, no, no, ignore me. I know the scene I'm thinking about. It's coming out. Because the Doctor is in there. But anyway, let's carry on. No, I can't write the Doctor down. But it actually had a very funny scene, so don't forget to mention that.
00:27:47
Speaker
So this is just that one scene later. How could you forget him? He's our hero. We haven't given him anywhere near enough player of the episode nominations. Oh Jamie, he's going to get so many star players. So many, I agree. Later on. Oh really? Okay, every episode. Don't worry about it.
00:28:02
Speaker
Not bad for it, not bad for an actor I thought was an extra from Scrubs. So I always thought that actor also acted lawyer in Scrubs. Well first of all they are two different people. I know, they know. Yeah they are. Oh they're both very funny. That guy died. Oh did he? I mean not from Covid I think but during that period. Was it at a Star Trek convention?
00:28:26
Speaker
Well, no. Because ironically, ironically, part of the plot development for that Doctor of Scrubs was the fact that he goes to Star Trek conventions with his wife, with his partner. Ah, I forgot about that. I'm kidding.
00:28:39
Speaker
No, I'm planning to rewatch. Meanwhile, on the KZ... You have read ever so slightly in the light that you chose to direct us back to the bluff of this episode. Do you want to take us into... We're having our tradition on the end of this. I'm directing you back here with Red's amazing notes. I can sound like I know what I'm talking about. Yeah, AI's amazing notes. On the KZ on ship, Chakotay and Kara walk before the KZ on meter, and Razik confronts Chakotay, blames him for Kara's disgrace. Oh, Act 3.
00:29:07
Speaker
Well I mean we haven't actually picked up on the fact that the explanation for why there is so much hostility to the presence of a ship bearing symbols and effectively uniform military iconography on its side is that
00:29:29
Speaker
the Kaison fought for their independence from a military and cultural system that espoused this type of iconography and these types of technology and administration. And this is the context that's given to why, in addition to their intensely territorial approach to any interactions with external parties, the Kaison resented the Starfleet iconography in particular.
00:29:58
Speaker
Thank you for explaining that, because honestly, I didn't get it the three times I watched. Really? Yeah, I had it took a different time. They kept saying it, but I was like, I don't get it. Yeah, they they fought off oppressors who, you know, had effectively a fleet military and organized military organization. And there's there's like a complete cultural contrast between that and the Kaesong sort of culture, which feels more of a tribal
00:30:26
Speaker
less homogenous. I don't know if that's the word. Yeah, that's true. Less homogenous sort of set up. And it's very ironic that it's Jokose, of all characters, who is there representing Starfleet, given his marquee and also tribal background. Yeah, I mean, as you say, this is kind of like a clash of two cultures rituals. I mean, of course, but it's just a contrast.
00:30:56
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, is this because, I mean, I think that there's a scene where the, forgive me if we've already covered it, where Karl's sort of showing Chakotay all the uniforms. And he's saying, well, this is Cazon, whatever his name, Cazon Smith, Cazon Brown, they've all gained their names by- By killing this alien. Acquiring the uniforms and, you know, I don't know, materials of the people they've killed.
Cultural Conflicts with the Kazon
00:31:26
Speaker
And one of those people, he's like, this person killed my brother. I'm like, oh my god, this doesn't make any sense. Yeah. So I guess that kind of ties in to what Jamie was saying. Anyway, so Shikote apologizes for stress passing on the case on August space. And that's where he learns about everything James just spoken about. And then Razik schedules an execution for that night. Oh, yes. Without specifying whose it is. Yeah.
00:31:53
Speaker
Again, I kind of just glossed over that. Yes, that's right. Sorry, I kind of went wrong with this. So that does take us into kind of like an act three. So I don't know if you want to cover that, Jenny.
00:32:10
Speaker
Meanwhile, on the Kaison ship, Chakotay's situation becomes increasingly tense as Razik offers him a choice to kill a Kaison named Kar. Oh, a Kaison named Kar, we know who's called Kar. Yeah, this is, um, I should probably, you know, not, uh, should probably adapt it.
00:32:29
Speaker
But this is the execution of which we speak. Yes, Kazon basically Razuk offers Jokote a choice to kill Kota or be killed himself. Yes, that is what I'm trying to say. Exactly. Before, even before this, even though it's not like all these like children are summoned or child Kazon to like look at Jokote and then like, which one of you want to kill him? And they're like, me, me. I mean, not quite.
00:32:57
Speaker
But it's interesting because before it's explained what's going to happen you have those sort of five or six children including Carl looking at Shikote and Shikote's assumption is all right so you're going to kill me to show them that my folk are weak okay and he says that and it turns out to be the complete reverse of the situation because
00:33:21
Speaker
Shikote says as it's happening to the children that he wishes them no harm and isn't there as a threat and Razik responds by saying who wants to kill this interloper put your hand up and they'll jump up saying me he says they would all kill you if they could and he says and then he offers Shikote the gun and says now you either kill Kara you get killed yourself
00:33:46
Speaker
And the dilemma in the situation thickens with an irony I found all too enjoyable. I'm glad you enjoyed it. But it's also, again, it's like if you cross your own, you're worse than an outsider, in a sense. Or if you don't abide by the rules of your society, you're worse than not. So we're thinking, Chakotay's going to get killed. But actually, it's like Fred is more on par. And he's seen as a worse
00:34:12
Speaker
Yeah, he's a failure. Because there's also that rather odd and touching moment when Car first returns where Razik greets him, grabs him in a hug, kisses him and says, I forgive you. Oh, does it say that? Because I wrote down, he also said, I never thought I would see you like this. And then I kind of kisses him and I was like, well, that's very menacing. It's creepy.
00:34:39
Speaker
And yeah, to go take Paul's maneuver. I just have a quick line that I think it's worth with. At that point, Jakote says, and I think I wrote it down to the victim, you want me to kill a child in front of other children? What would that accomplish? Words to live by? Well, it would make them scared of failing. That's true. Sorry, Jenny, go ahead. No, no, it was a good line.
00:35:06
Speaker
So yeah, he manages to, well, I think he sort of pretends he's going to take the weapon and kill Karl with it, but in fact, he does a manoeuvre, some kind of fighting.
Escape Plan and Survival
00:35:15
Speaker
Then we can just pull the surprise attack. I'm going to surprise, surprise, and he manages to grab the gun, or you know, phaser, whatever it is. And then, you know, he grabs Razik, who's hostage as he sort of backs away. And that avoids all the other kids that are trying to fire on him. And meanwhile, he offers Kar the opportunity to escape with him.
00:35:39
Speaker
Yeah, and you're not really sure. Can't hesitate. He's saying, well, it makes a good point. There's not really much left for you here. All your kind want to kill you. You know that I'm not going to try and kill you. I would have killed you by now if I was going to. And yeah, not really sure whether he's going to go with him, but in the end he does.
00:35:58
Speaker
offering him the knowledge of how to shut down the ship's weapon systems as he does. Yeah, so they get into the escape into a shuttle and when they all come on the fire. Not just any shuttle, a Starfleet shuttle, the very one that Shikote came on and this will be significant. Oh, is it? Okay, right. They escape the ship, although they're pursued
00:36:23
Speaker
and the large occasional ship showers them with fire as they approach the M-class planet, but they get close enough that even though all red hand shot in the air. Oh yeah, no, no, sorry, I don't want to, well, two words, I can't talk. Before we just get to that point, I just to express, I think a card does a good job of like expressing his reasoning for his decision to go with Cote, which is like, if I stay here, I will die without a name.
00:36:53
Speaker
so in a way he's like betraying his tribe but he's also abiding by the rules because he still is trying to die by the values and i thought it was very sweet when they like were on the shuttle and he said will rzik be all right so he still has some empathy for this crazy overlord anyway
00:37:14
Speaker
No, no, no. But in the flight, they're showered with fire as they come close to the M-class planet. And they get as close as they can. And they're shot. And Shikote attempts to activate the transporter beam. And then... And Alexa says, not a good idea.
00:37:35
Speaker
Yeah, exactly right. The ship says, not advised. It's a long way, no stable lock. And we're left on a cliffhanger as to what happens because we go back to Voyager and they find the debris that was left of the shuttle, which they identify as a Starfleet shuttle that was used by Shikote, suggesting that he has perished.
00:38:03
Speaker
Yes. In this time, it's very easy to identify the debris because it's actually got like some Starfleet insignia. It doesn't take very long. I should laugh. So in Act 4, Chakotay and Ka awaken on the moon's surface. So they're alive. They're alive, they've made it. Team. Transport worked.
00:38:30
Speaker
Kar's initially hostile. I mean, he's like, that wasn't a battle. We didn't even shoot back. And I was trying to with you. He's very upset. Um, Chikote tries to wander off leaving him, but Kar then proves his worth. Yes. Do I explain how? Oh, no. I was sort of teeing you up for that. Um, well, he, this moon is a training ground for, um, the Kazon.
00:38:56
Speaker
A training ground, which as New York points out later, where they use live ammunition and live, like, weapons. So there's like proton beams and all kinds of weapons. So if Chiquote is going to be able to navigate it through, he does really need cause, help and car. Demonstrate this. A good line here where he was like, if you want to live to be that wrinkled old man or whatever, you should listen to me.
00:39:21
Speaker
earlier, he was kind of astounded that Kote wanted to die in his sleep at 80 years old. Yeah, he said you want to die a wrinkly old man in your sleep and Jesus sounds about right? Yes. Sentiment I can get a board with. Voice of sanity. Now who wants to cover the scene of the doctor because I go Jenny do not remember this at all.
00:39:40
Speaker
Anything doctor, got to do it. So back on Voyager, doctor finds no evidence of human remains in the debris. So they think that there might be a chance to go to his life. How much debris is he looking through out of interest? I mean, visually, what does it look like? Well, he's looking for human remains on the debris. I don't think he's visually looking. I imagine he has some kind of, you know, exciting. So we haven't really set the scene for our listeners for
00:40:08
Speaker
where the debris is, how much there is of it, and the subsequent sort of comic effect.
Voyager's Search for Chakotay
00:40:14
Speaker
Yeah, sorry Jenny, it's not on the nose because I was like, I don't have time to give a doctor like a spotlight in this episode. I'd just like to clarify, we have all actually watched this. I don't remember it though. Do you not remember? The entire sickbay from bottom to top is absolutely but absolutely chocka with all this burnt up metal and debris. The doctor has been examining it in there.
00:40:38
Speaker
And the doctor says, there's no debris. There's no human remains in this debris. Could someone be more of this out of sick pain? I've looked through it. Yeah, he was very put out. He was very put out. Yeah.
00:40:54
Speaker
I didn't, um, I didn't give him the credit he deserved. Anyway, um, so the crew hypothesis that Shagoti may be on, I think this is where the flight plan comes in. They say, Oh, we might be on that M class moon, um, with all the K's on, uh, training weapons. Um, so Captain Jane Rakesh and Tuvok head to the surface to search for him. Hmm. Yeah. And, um,
00:41:21
Speaker
I thought you were going to criticise Neelix's line. Well, Neelix and Kaes are kind of nominated as Kaes on experts. That's why Kaes gets taken to the pad and Neelix gets taken to the bridge. Funny which one of them actually gets picked as the person to be on point with the skipper in a potentially risky situation. Yes, that responsibility goes to Kaes. I think Neelix had a funny line when they were like,
00:41:46
Speaker
discussing all this live ammunition. He's like, I believe you pull them booby traps or whatever he says. Very, very well delivered. And then, yeah, Neelix has given some real responsibility. I guess tying back into that long ago moment where he feels underutilized. And I think Gigote is setting up a home in Beacon, back where he is in the caves with Carl.
00:42:17
Speaker
And this is where Car is considering killing him again to earn his name. Yeah, so while Chakotay's sleeping, there's like kind of a moment where you can see Car messing with the beacon, pointing the weapon at Chakotay, and then... Changes his mind. Yeah. Yeah. While Chakotay sleeps, no less. Which is interesting, because we'll go for it, although...
00:42:46
Speaker
Well, he says that. He does say that. You look very peaceful to me. Yeah, I know. I mean, you might sort of say something like that, you know, just to push off a potential future murder attempt when Cog gains a little bit of confidence. Yeah, and it seems like an unnecessary risk if he knew he was, if he was awake.
00:43:09
Speaker
and he knew what was going on. Why did he just lie there pretending to be asleep while this young teenage gable pointed a weapon at him? I mean, Carl's about 13, though, so he's literally going to go to sleep after it's eight o'clock anyway. Were you ever 13? Doesn't sound like a 10. I just found everything very boring at that age, and I slept through it. Fair enough. Oh, wow. Very different teenagers to me. I was trying to stay up as late as possible. Yeah, you were a fun teenager, I think.
00:43:38
Speaker
Ouch! Zing! But if Jenny is a fun teenager, I'm the opposite. Well, you just told us you slept through everything, so I'm going on the words that came out of your mouth and not my own chest. I probably shouldn't mention here that mostly I was trying to stay up late just so I could watch more TV. This is not that fun. I can get on board now.
00:44:06
Speaker
Um, but then, uh, in the morning, they do have kind of a, kind of a meaningful conversation, I think. So, um, Chiquote, it's about like how Chiquote didn't have to earn his name, but he earned his uniform. And he's like saying your name and my uniform, they're kind of the same.
00:44:21
Speaker
Cause like, they're not the same. Yes. He says, well, years and years of study. Yeah, it's not a great dramatic one line back. It's an interesting conversation though, because he says, well, it is years and years of study. It's a lot of hard work and it's
00:44:38
Speaker
also, you know, battle strategies, there is that element, but then Karl comes back with, well, yes, but therefore they're not attack, they're not to attack and kill people, they're defensive strategies. And to Karl that means that, I don't know, your action kind of suggests that means they're worthless, the defensive strategy is not the same thing.
00:45:01
Speaker
Yeah and I just I don't get why it's positioned that way by Chakotay because if you're part of Starfleet you're part of a naval force and a huge amount of your fighting doctrine is offense as well as defense.
00:45:16
Speaker
Well, yes. It's not that you get this navy. There's a fleet involved. It's ships. They engage in battle when they are fired upon. The Romulan navy or Romulan fleet. Romulans and our Starfleet. I will throw my mobile phone out of the window in frustration at you both willfully disregarding the point that I'm making, which is that one can hardly say
00:45:43
Speaker
Starfleet aren't trained in offensive maneuvers as well as defensive maneuvers. If I may casually make that point, it's weird that Chikoshi is entirely framing what he had to do as opposed to
00:45:58
Speaker
you know, saying, well, you know, you learn all of this, but I've learned how to fight and win battles with technologies your folk can only dream of. And, frankly, Chakotay has also won more battles than this kid has heard of in fairy tales. And initially, there's a thought he could do that one, that sort of one-upmanship.
00:46:19
Speaker
But he doesn't. And it's sort of an odd but telling point that the point he makes back to this child isn't, you know, I fight more or, you know, we're braver. It's years and years of study. Exactly. On the same level, I'm trying to
00:46:42
Speaker
again, find that common ground so he can he can stop trying to threaten to kill them. Yeah. And I mean, I guess he is the way he frames it as well. You know, he he talks about battles to defend and sort of defend and protect rather than battles to, you know, kill and win, win land. But then
00:47:05
Speaker
It is an interesting exchange, I think, because then he doesn't push that point. And it kind of moves further away that when he says, he talks about yes, but but earning your name, what did you do to earn your name, and then he actually goes back beyond his staff, and he goes back to, well, in my tribe, I, my name was a gift. So you didn't earn it at all. It was a cherished, cherished and treasured gift.
00:47:32
Speaker
Which I think is quite a nice comeback. Because what can you say to that? And I mean, you know, he's not trying to say, Oh, I've earned it. I've done all this. And you know, I'm a big deal. And I earned it. And therefore, you should give me respect. He's just, he's almost like, what's the word when you de escalate, you know, he's taking so I can think, you know, it was given to me is
00:47:58
Speaker
That's why it's so important. He's almost giving the kids a different scale by which to value things. Yeah. I think you're right. I think you're both right.
00:48:16
Speaker
Oh my gosh, I can't hold on to a thought. What's wrong with me? We're very distracting, Red, I know. So all those busy work projects. Also, those what those listen to a podcast should know that we're all naked as we do this. But yeah, getting a name as a gift is as good or as powerful as earning your name. And I guess it's just like you don't have like, I guess, Cody's kind of pointing out you don't have to earn a name.
Identity and Cultural Growth
00:48:44
Speaker
It can be a gift. There's other ways of
00:48:46
Speaker
going through the world or other beliefs you can have. But I did like the line, I think, Shikote, when he's like, I mean, I don't know if I would have this perfectly, but he's like, what's so different about us apart from the fact that I keep saving your life and you keep trying to kill me. It's a good line. So there's a lot of, I'm too old for this shit kid out of Chicago for this episode.
00:49:13
Speaker
Yeah. It's not an episode of Lethal Weapon. So my question is, does Neelik sit in the captain's chair on the bridge? Yes. This is me to fuck off. No one else would do that. And I'm a bit like I, I feel a little bit like Roy Kent in the scene in Ted Lase, where
00:49:44
Speaker
in front of all the players, Rebecca Welton comes and says, right, get your hairy arse up in my office right now. And storms off and the entire team go, and he turns around and says, every last one of you knows I don't have a hairy arse. One of you said anything and I will never forget this. And I feel as though
00:50:12
Speaker
If the captain ever finds out that Neelak sat in that seat, she should have that conversation with every last one of the bridge crew on duty that day because there is an abomination. No one even said anything. But anyway, it turns out to be not that bad a decision because when the Kaison hail Voyager trying to convince them that Chakotay died and there's nothing to see here and they should bugger off.
00:50:39
Speaker
Neelix plays the hand of a cool hand, Luke Poke Blair, seeing through them and basically telling them, I can see through you like a glass window.
00:50:52
Speaker
I'm trying to imitate Neelix's act slightly here, but her basis says, and it would have nothing to do with the fact there's a caisson training planet here that you don't want us to find or tell anyone about, would it now? And he effectively persuades slash strong arms them to let Voyager need to search due to
00:51:13
Speaker
uh the risks of a battle near their training base drawing attention to it which is regretfully I have to say rather well played by Mr Neelix. Ah very good the grudging the grudging compliment. I hate him with my soul. Oh that's not true like last time you were quite complimentary. I hate the me back then with my soul not so much.
00:51:39
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Okay. So then we, I feel like my notes are a little over the place, but at the next scene we're in a cave. And as we said, Kaur had thought about during the night, killing Tokote. And in the morning, Tokote is like, why didn't you go through with it? And he's like, I'm a coward. And then a little bit later he has that line, like, if you're my friend, you're my only one. And wow, Kaur is really dumb because he is really,
00:52:08
Speaker
feels like he's in a tight spot where he won't be accepted by Kazon, Oglet. No other sect will accept him. If he goes with Voyager like Shikote is suggesting now, he'll just get further away from home and he's kind of very depressed, I guess.
00:52:24
Speaker
So typical teenager on Monday night? Monday morning? That's true. That's true. That puts it in perspective. This is just a case on a kid who has to do the equivalent of going into school. They're all like this, Red. Yeah. Well, it's me. I mean, I was a teenager. I do maybe remember. I don't because I was asleep all the time. This is a very, very random interjection, but maybe I shouldn't go here. I mean, I just went to the Rebecca Welton, Roy Kent's Harry ass thing. So you should probably go there.
00:52:54
Speaker
No, it's a very random thought. It doesn't really belong here. But it's like, I was listening to another podcast that I like about. How could you? You know, the Hercule Baroque TV series. And like, as I found out, I mean, not all podcasts, but often podcasts of the founders of the podcast have a background in media.
00:53:12
Speaker
And then that's why they make such a good podcast. And then this guy was saying, Oh, yes, I had a show on BBC radio one or whatever. I'm like, Oh, what a tool bag. So again, just for unless in case it wasn't clear, none of us have a background. I mean, I have voiced the occasional voiceover for English dubs of Bollywood movies, but bring it out there. And, and don't forget your. No, no, we're not talking about that. That identifies me far too much.
00:53:42
Speaker
I've heard you on the radio once or twice. That's what I'm going to say. Yes, very good. Well, yeah, the scream as I was gunned down by a gangster or something like that. So on the moon surface, now we see Janeway and Kez and her crew, who are like on, I guess they're looking forward to Kote.
Janeway's Leadership in Rescue
00:54:02
Speaker
Did anyone notice that Kez was very out of breath trying to keep up with the captain? She was like, oh, she's like, I picked up the screen. Yeah, I thought that was just like,
00:54:12
Speaker
I don't know there's something about that I thought was like good because I guess captain is like in your element who cares this is her first away mission so she's a little bit out of her. Yeah she also seems remarkably unphased about coming face to face with Kazon given they had her enslaved and beat her up for you know ages when we first came across her. But yes they come across the Kazon that are now on the planet I think it's
00:54:35
Speaker
But I honestly, for some reason, a lot of these eagles are not sinking. And they're like, oh, yeah, we'll help you find your lost crewmate. Because it's a hazardous environment. Yeah, they probably actually try and get to them first. So back in the cage, Kote picks up this like kind of
00:54:55
Speaker
descending mass of humans. Captain Janeway and her descending mass. And Quezon. And he's trying to come up with a plan, I guess, that can help cause safe face. Did anyone get the details of this plan? Well, yes. Yeah. And it's a medical image. Why don't you cover it? I love that I'm just like go to as if I'm just to be clear to anyone listening, I'm not actually a doctor at all.
00:55:24
Speaker
insertion. I think you're our medical and linguistic experts. I'm interested in those areas. Anyway, so yeah, basically, Chagote is a way of him earning his name, but also Chagote not dying.
Chakotay's Bold Plan
00:55:41
Speaker
So he's gonna in fact let Karl
00:55:43
Speaker
kill him with the weapon. Then he's going to get the doctor and the medical team on standby. And they're going to be ready to immediately beam his body back to sickbay. And he makes the good point to call that the medical team, his medical team can in fact reanimate people even up to two minutes after they've been dead. So that's his plan. He's basically risking his life. Because obviously, there's no absolute certainty that he can be brought back to life.
00:56:12
Speaker
always risky, to basically make sure that Karl gets his name and is accepted back in his own people. So very self sacrificing. But this is not what actually happens. No, but I think a very cunning plan. And in the meantime, Voyager had been able to make contact with Janeway and Shikote on the or restore contact. So yeah, he has that. That's how I guess he has that on
00:56:40
Speaker
stand by but that's his plan is to kind of now that he's in contact with Voyager. But as as Janeway is making following the caisson they kind of fall into a trap I guess where they caught in a bubble. That was my question. Behind a force field. Behind a force field thank you. So the caisson managed to get to the cave first and when they arrive a car has his
00:57:04
Speaker
weapon trained on Chakotay again. Yeah. What did Chakotay call in again on the on the combage to Voyager to beam him up on the code what? Code white. That was the code. Yeah. And have the doctor ready to resuscitate him, suggesting he was planning
00:57:26
Speaker
planning to let Karr shoot him so his heart stops. Danny, you doing it? Jamie, just explain this. I know, I thought I'd do this one more time. Okay. You did it on purpose, that is serious. Yeah, sorry. So, who wants to explain what happens next? So, as I said, like, well, Captain Jamie enters, but yes, we have this kind of standoff. Karr's got his weapon pointed at Shikote.
00:57:51
Speaker
Yeah, well I quite like the little turnaround. I just thought there was a little bit of clever thinking from Karl on this. So he's all ready to, you know, go through with the plan. He's got his weapon train on Jokote. But then, in fact, he turns around and he shoots the Kazon leader Razik.
00:58:11
Speaker
which basically effectively means he has a name for himself, and he then basically pledges his allegiance to the next second in command, Marge, who is now the leader, saying, you know, I've just killed Razik for you, so that you are now the Marge, and therefore, you know, basically, you know me. But he also says, you know, therefore my life is in your hands, and you decide what you do with me.
00:58:34
Speaker
But he has, you know, he's been quite tactical about this because obviously that part now is quite, quite, yeah, in his debt really, because he's, he's also got someone who knows he's going to be super loyal to him. So it actually works out best for
Kar's Decision and Consequences
00:58:51
Speaker
both of them. But it is quite funny, I find that the story of this, the storyline, or the plot line,
00:58:56
Speaker
like it had to work out in a certain way like they had to get Jane Wayne the rest of them trapped behind because obviously there's no way that they would let that happen. It involves killing a marge and killing another being even though actually that's
00:59:14
Speaker
how it all worked out for the best. No more receipts dead, but it worked out well for everyone else. If you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Yeah, that was brilliant. And I think the new name he gives myself is Ja Cardin or something. Almost like Pierre Jourdan. I don't know what watches do. Maybe he's a very slick Parisian. He has a fancy watch.
00:59:41
Speaker
Yeah, so he, I think just to wrap that up, oh yes, but then he does still like have to act like a, or maybe he's being serious, I don't know, but when he turns to Dakota and he's like, the Federation does not belong here. If we meet again, I will not hesitate to kill you. No, you seem serious in that instance. I think he is being serious, to be honest. There's a bit of a boundary there of just because we're friends doesn't mean that I won't kill you. I won't protect my territory or reality.
01:00:11
Speaker
But ultimately, Voyager is released and I guess the crew members are being back aboard. I'm not Santa Cruz here then. And Shikoshi resumes his ritual and prays to the spirit of his father again asking for the guidance of the local spirit community. Yes, and he also asks, he also prays or asks for...
01:00:33
Speaker
for the spread of his father to watch over a young troubled man. I think it's something like that. Yeah, a car, which is really sweet actually. Don't know how car would respond to being called troubled though. No, he would not, he would not identify with that. So anything to add before you go into themes? Nope. No, I think we've just about covered it. It's pretty good.
01:01:01
Speaker
Is there any element of Dances with Wolves in there? I've never seen Dances with Wolves. Oh, great movie. Is it going to make me cry? That's probably why I've never seen it. It did make me cry. That doesn't mean anything. Are you calling my wife's emotions meaningless? Because let me tell you, they impact on me every damn day. No, this is why I only watch sitcoms and procedurals because there's no hard emotions.
01:01:29
Speaker
Do you know what? I find adverts make me cry more than any movie. It was like a donkey sanctuary. They drive me crazy with the little poor little animal faces. Oh dear. So emotionally manipulative. I feel like I gave my sort of key theme that I got from it away a bit earlier on actually. I felt like it was all about identity and where you get your identity. Is it a name that's given to you?
01:01:56
Speaker
Do you earn it or is it a gift and all these different explorations of identity, which is, I think, a nice interesting thing. Yeah. And when I think about identity a lot now, I think the theme, I don't know, but I did think it was interesting, as you said, at the top of the show, Jamie, which is like both of these, Jokote was like kind of executing or implementing something from his culture.
01:02:25
Speaker
this young kid cause implementing something from his culture. They so different, they clash, they almost lead to death. It's kind of crazy, I guess. Yeah. My point.
Reflection on Themes and Growth
01:02:37
Speaker
It's almost like they needed Will and Harry and Dreamscape Mindforge Consultancy Architecture Fund to help them sort it out.
01:02:45
Speaker
Again, I'm not going to edit this. Fortunately, for our listeners, that is not a real thing. But it will be. We cannot be accused of advertising, although, you know, if it ever comes to being then, yeah, we're screwed. Are we? No, sorry. Jamie, anything to add to themes?
01:03:11
Speaker
I mean, I was so tempted just to give you a one word answer back of just meaning. I'll stick with the one earlier of contrast between culture and the differences in how cultural values ascribe meaning and value and a degree of what it means to grow to adulthood.
01:03:43
Speaker
Very nice. I think also on further reflection, it's almost, I'm kind of thinking that even if you manage to have common ground with someone, cultural norms can still overrule, unless you really want the same thing. Oh, sorry. Yeah, for what you said. Because I mean, like they have such a, yeah, kind of close, intense, um, relationship and yet he would still kill him if he saw him again.
01:04:12
Speaker
Star player. Wow, I have not thought about this. Does anyone want to think about it? Yeah, it's been on my mind the last few minutes and I'm really struggling. Jamie, do you? Have we got any doubt here? Go ahead, Jamie. I mean, I think Car really comes back from the dead, this one. Like, you know, Kid manages to survive and become the power broker of his entire caisson, Majate.
01:04:36
Speaker
while still at the age of 13, having committed a crime that would normally see him executed. Yeah, as Jenny said, he'd make some good tactical or strategic decisions. I don't know the difference. It really turns it around. And also, have you watched Deep Space Nine? No. The car is Nog. Oh my goodness. What? Yeah. All life stories shot and draw.
01:05:04
Speaker
I know, I didn't pick it up until I read it during my research. I wouldn't have realised. It's not the main character, Ferengi. He's the brother of the main character. He's the nephew. He's like the first Ferengi that becomes Starfleet, I think, by the end. Would you rather be a Kaison or a Ferengi? Ferengi, for sure.
01:05:29
Speaker
really yeah why they're so mean to each other because you're less like you've got massive erogenous ears that everyone looks at every day and their wardrobe is much more stylish yes but you might it has a case on you you might get killed by your brother any day or you're just swindled by your brother
01:05:56
Speaker
Yeah, any, any, oh star players, Jenny, you and I, just like made you seem happy. Yeah, I really struggled. I feel like there was no one that, you know, everyone did a good job, but no one sort of stood out. But I think, you know, I normally do it on more these, these the star actor or actress. I think if we, I might change it slightly to more how you guys usually do it. If I do it according to who was the star.
01:06:21
Speaker
character, then yeah I think I'd go for Karthi because I do think that was quite cunning at the end there and a good tactical decision. And then I think maybe I'll just give us maybe a special mention to Kiz for being nominated Kiz on expert and going on a I think first away mission. I can't keep up with Captain Shainway. Yeah. Does no one give it to Takashi then?
01:06:48
Speaker
I think he's got some fantastic ones later. I think that's it. I think the whole point of the episode is an attempt to get people thinking about who's performed well in an unorthodox way because there's never been one where we've given it to the straight star of the episode ever. No. But I think we will later on. Will we? Yes.
01:07:18
Speaker
And actually, I think we have, I think I've given it to the doctor for the ones where he's been the main. Have we did we do that one with Beowulf yet? Yes. Yeah, I'm sure I must have given him that one. And I've definitely given it to Tuvok when Tuvok was the main. Yeah. But yes, everyone has still got lots of opportunities to shine. We are.
01:07:46
Speaker
Uh, I don't know what the next episode is. I kept accidentally watching it, but I think the next episode is a big doctor episode because when Netflix just switched over, he like activates himself and no one's on a ship or something. Oh, yeah. That's a good one. I think, I think I'm not sure now I've committed myself, but I'd never look at the next name. Sorry. You know, this discussion about the style player, like in how
01:08:12
Speaker
you later thinking about it, we think later on, we'll have more star players who are the main character in that episode. And it makes me think about how like generally with Star Trek.
01:08:22
Speaker
It seems as though it is a case of one of the enjoyable things about watching it as a series is that you see actors and actresses who aren't necessarily, well, you see them, I feel like you see them grow as actors and actresses and improve and that's really satisfying. And given like very like interesting opportunities to, they kind of create stories that give them like
01:08:50
Speaker
the opportunity to display or flex their acting ability. Like I'm just thinking of that scene where I think in the far, far in the future, a seven out of nine is drunk because she's actually the doctor. So they play other roles or they play, or is she drunk or is she just like delirious on food? I can't remember. So yes, they kind of write these scenarios where they really get to
01:09:18
Speaker
stretch or flex their acting muscles um but yes i think uh yeah that was pretty not too long guys and um funny story today i accidentally wrapped up a meeting after 30 minutes not 60 minutes because i got the timing wrong so i was like okay well that's the hour i think we've covered everything thanks everybody bye
01:09:42
Speaker
Nali, will you just stop? You ended that meeting early. I was like, uh, did I? Must look out for the notification from Teams, just like five minutes left. So on that note, I think it's safe to say goodbye and see you next time. Bye.