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We watch "Twisted" (S2 Ep.6)
19 Plays9 months ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Twisted" in which Neelix faces his jealousy head-on, while the crew must figure out what to do about a distortion field which seems intent on crushing Voyager.
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Transcript
Introduction and New Format Announcement
00:00:02
Speaker
Jamie, are you going for the awkward silence or are you going to introduce us? Oh, we started. Oh, good God. Sorry, I was just checking my notes. This is socially awkward. And to add to the social awkwardness, we are about to try a new format for this podcast, which I'm very excited about.
00:00:17
Speaker
and we're going to be channeling the power of three, because each of us has picked three things from the episode Twisted from season two, which we are going to focus on.
Game of Awkward Silence Chicken
00:00:28
Speaker
But before we do this, we are going to commence with a game of awkward silence chicken, in which the first person to break in the awkward silence is the one who has to go with their theme first. After I have introduced my thoughts on the episode as a whole, in terms of my 30 second summary, as is traditional on the podcast,
00:00:47
Speaker
Children, are we happy with this format start? Yes, but I cannot do an awkward silence on a podcast. Well, that's what you say now, Red, but just imagine how annoying I'll be if I managed to win that, he says with a wicked gleam in his eye. So in my view... I'll break it immediately.
00:01:05
Speaker
I have picked my friends well.
Episode Summary and Brothel Theme
00:01:11
Speaker
So in my view, this episode is an attempt to build an entire geospatial warping construct to disguise the fact that that effectively there is a brothel being run on a Starfleet vessel. Codgetate on that while we wait and see who breaks the awkward silence first.
00:01:32
Speaker
Well, I think it's more a stun shot. Oh, he broke so easily. Gosh, how did he break so easily? I mean, actually, we need to debate a little bit on, you know, Saundrine's role and, you know, professional qualifications. Oh, the bluffle. Okay. But, um, aside from the fact that they constructed an entire geospatial Hogwarts architecture on the fact that, you know, you go around one corner in this episode, um,
00:01:57
Speaker
But no, to summarize the plot a little bit, in this episode the intrepid crew of Star Trek or the USS Voyager encounter a geospatial distortion which starts to slowly move through the ship compressing the crew into an ever smaller space outside of which
00:02:16
Speaker
the layout of the ship warps and alters and the episode is centred on their attempts to resolve this issue and ultimately finding themselves ultimately unable to escape it how they each come to terms with and face this dilemma and how this finishes we'll see you later on in the podcast very good jamie one of your best
Initial Reactions and Pacing Discussion
00:02:40
Speaker
Not at all. Entirely ad-libbed. But Red, as you broke the awkward silence chicken first, would you care to introduce your first of three talking points? And we will go round clockwise. I think initial reactions first, right Jenny? Do you want to... Yeah, so I think Jenny, do you want to kick us off with the initial reactions? Well, I would say medium.
00:03:02
Speaker
There was bits I really enjoyed and bits that I felt dragged a little bit.
Character Actions and Mortality Theme
00:03:10
Speaker
I think in the sort of middle portion where they
00:03:15
Speaker
You'd already pretty much picked up the fact that the ship was, you know, something was happening and bits of it were moving around and everyone was confused where they wanted to. So that had been established, I think, after a couple of scenes with a few characters. And then that seemed to repeat quite a lot for quite a while. Yes, I want to say.
00:03:34
Speaker
And the whole of act one was just people trying to get somewhere. I mean, you could just summarize it like that. It was like, wow, that's all that happened for like 10 years. But then I really enjoyed the ending. And this whole like, yeah, delve into how to accept your own mortality. And also, I actually, amazingly for once, I did actually really enjoy the Nelix bits. I think his comedy at the beginning, I think he actually played that really well.
Exploring Jealousy and Personal Experiences
00:04:02
Speaker
I don't know, do you think so? I'm finding that the whole Neelix jealousy thing has sort of been, you know, hammed up and way run up the flag and waved on quite a number of episodes now. I'm a bit like... Sometimes we don't like what we see because it reminds us of ourselves, Jamie. Sometimes someone can have a judgment on something else and it doesn't reflect on the judge. Thank you, Red. I judged that statement as Tarson because it was.
00:04:30
Speaker
Listeners, I've never thought of Jamie as jealous. So maybe he is, maybe isn't, but just to be clear, I've never thought of him. I'm not jealous. I'm just extremely defensive. I mean,
Ethical Implications of Holodeck Programming
00:04:40
Speaker
I think you get your point there.
00:04:47
Speaker
The reason I enjoyed it this time and didn't find it a bit repetitive is because he was taking a different approach to the jealousy, which was quite... I felt like he was trying so hard to not let his emotions rule his behaviour, which I have respect for. And also adding a bit of comedy to it.
00:05:09
Speaker
something he mentioned about the locket that Tom Parris gives Kess at the beginning. He sort of does this fabulous, but that's a fabulous rapping job. It's quite clear that he still wants to talk about it with Kess. And I suppose we should introduce this for listeners who haven't. But should we finish his initial reactions? Sorry,
Humorous Moments and Character Interactions
00:05:36
Speaker
sorry, sorry.
00:05:37
Speaker
Oh, sorry. I was yielding space. I actually quite enjoyed it. It was weirdly light-hearted. There were moments of comedy. There were moments where we, in characters' confusion, saw a little bit more of them.
00:05:54
Speaker
um it felt more like one where crew members feelings came out and i just also loved some of the wackiness of it some of the interactions the doctor rejecting sondrine when he's stuck um at her cafe um i i loved
00:06:12
Speaker
uh Velana Torres when accidentally stepping or opening a door and finding a topless crew member and saying stay where you are closing the door stopping awkwardly and Tom Prowse going well I think you handled that really well yes that was a very good comedic moment I think it has touches and it has moments um
00:06:34
Speaker
And I just love the idea of a ship or a building where you go around a corner and it's not what you expected, which is kind of weird because I absolutely hate mazes.
Balancing Comedy and Serious Themes
00:06:44
Speaker
But yeah. So you enjoyed it. You enjoyed it. Yeah, I think maybe, I don't know, I would say medium to high. Yeah, initial reactions. I don't think I'm very good at initial reactions. But I mean, overall, I enjoyed it. I think, as you said, lots of other comedy, but
00:07:03
Speaker
What I saw in both of your notes, I guess, is maybe something that I've lost over, but the end is very powerful, but we'll get to that. Yeah. So back to you, Janie. No. If you want to take us through our first round of three. Oh, no, I'm not because I lost awkward chicken. I didn't lose awkward chicken even. Janie, do you want to kick this off?
00:07:27
Speaker
Oh, okay. Hang on. I don't think Jenny lost the awkward chicken either. When I introduced it, you were the one
Portrayal of Human Customs Through Kes
00:07:33
Speaker
who lost Trent. Okay, okay, okay. So the first thing I want to say about the episode, which is, it is in the teaser, I guess. I don't think you guys put this, although I think you hints about this, maybe Jenny.
00:07:45
Speaker
I did love the introduction that Kes has to all these human customs. I love that. It was so nice. The surprise birthday, the gifts, the flattering compliments. Like you don't look at Deo but one. That's a bit weird. She's only turning two and she has to make a worship. She's about to tell everyone her worship. But I was like, no, that must be secret. This is kind of like these ancient,
00:08:08
Speaker
Earth Customs that she's introduced to, I just really enjoyed that. Did you get a touch of also like, Balana is a bit socially awkward because the way she says it is almost overly aggressive. No, you can't tell anyone when everyone else has been like all fluttery and nice about the Earth Customs. She's quite firm, yes.
00:08:26
Speaker
I really liked her reaction because it seemed really sort of a spontaneous reaction of no, you absolutely can't. But then it was followed by this sort of embarrassment that, you know, something like that, superstitious is actually really important to her because it's a tradition. I don't know if you guys saw that. Yeah.
00:08:49
Speaker
No, I think that stacks up. I really like that video as well, actually. It's not just socially awkward, it's important to her.
00:08:58
Speaker
Yeah. So that was what I liked my first, my first number one. I like that. And I sort of, it's a lovely way of sort of positioning everything and positioning everywhere in the place that becomes sort of the center of the episode.
Holodeck's Role in Narrative Development
00:09:12
Speaker
So as well as just giving, I don't know, there's something about the holodeck location in Cafe Centrine.
00:09:21
Speaker
that sort of feels a bit more human and personal or not human but personal. So I really like that as both all the birthday traditions but also a good way to sort of show or showcase the fact that this is going to be one where there were some some feels. With that in mind I think that was an absolutely great first talking point Red. Was there anything else about it you thought that struck you though?
00:09:49
Speaker
No, it's the next person's turn. Well, I mean, I saw something, but I think the fact that Neelix is a Jubalian fudge merchant is not for discussion here. Jenny, what did you enjoy?
Neelix's Development and Handling Jealousy
00:10:05
Speaker
Well, I did kind of start talking about it already by accident, because I was talking about how much I liked the Neelix comedy elements. Mostly, obviously, because he's he's trying to deal with it this time, he's trying to deal with his jealousy. But it does link up with a later, I guess it's sort of a completion of that kind of story of Neelix that I really enjoyed.
00:10:32
Speaker
which is when he has a bit of a chat with Chakotay later asking his advice about how he deals with jealousy I just thought that was quite a sweet conversation because Chakotay is basically telling him that
00:10:45
Speaker
everyone feels jealousy at some point in their life.
Shared Human Experiences and Emotions
00:10:49
Speaker
And, you know, in relation to relationships anyway, it's obviously because you're afraid of losing something that you really care about. But according to Shikote, the benefits outweigh the negatives and risk of being hurt nearly always, which I thought was delightfully sentimental. Yes, I also really loved that scene and I loved how relieved
00:11:13
Speaker
Neelix is when he finds out that Kote also gets jealous because I think he's like really beating himself up for these feelings, which he doesn't enjoy. And, you know, it's just that the whole concept of like, when you share something and someone goes, oh, yeah, I also know you're like, okay, it's not just me.
00:11:29
Speaker
He acts that well, like he just seems so relieved that this person he really respects and admires suffers from this evil thing called jealousy as well. And he also acts as though it's something quite unfamiliar and unaccustomed to Neelix to ask the help and the counsel of someone else as opposed to offering it, which I really like. There's an awkwardness to it that lends authenticity, I think. Yeah, I agree with that. Problem shared is a problem hard. Yes.
00:12:00
Speaker
God, everyone's really earnest on this tonight. Right, I'm going to take us back to the path that we originally wanted when we set up this podcast, which is down the path of the salacious and the scandalous, which is obviously what everyone associates with Star Trek.
Holodeck Ethics and Cultural Implications
00:12:18
Speaker
I would like to talk about the ethics of having a holodeck character
00:12:22
Speaker
in Sontrin, who I gather is a brothel madam, who is programmed... Where did you get that from? I thought she was a brothel madam or something like that, I'm sure. She was an owner or a bar lady or something? She was a man-lady. Yeah. I'm not sure, I think it's heavily implied that she's something else, who seems to be programmed to be attracted to and come on to everyone who enters her cafe.
00:12:50
Speaker
although she had some absolutely superb lines like
00:12:56
Speaker
I think, for instance, you have, you'll get whatever, you know, you should make a wish and with a figure like that, you'll get whatever you wish for, things like that, that just make me laugh. Or the fact that when the Doctor Spencer advances, if you won't play pool, and you won't make love to me, then you've got to mop the floor. Yeah, it's like if you want to play, yeah, could you say if you want to play Doctor or something? Yes. Like, because should they get caught playing Doctor, Doctor?
00:13:23
Speaker
But can we take a moment to talk about the ethics of... Well, maybe we don't get to talk about it because I've misinterpreted her role, but I thought it was sort of played as she was a madam, which I've apparently misinterpreted. Although the ethics of programming a character just continually to come on to characters who enter the cafe.
00:13:43
Speaker
Well, I guess the doctor might have something to say about her ethics, or her morals, because he wasn't very fresh. Well, she's been programmed that way, so... Well, she was programmed by Tom, wasn't she? Oh, very good point. I mean, we know who to blame. How do we feel about his ethics?
00:14:02
Speaker
Well, yeah, because it's Tom's ethics, isn't it? Yes, yes. She was the owner of Chissontrin, just to be clear. Yes, that's what we thought. I know, but I'm trying to find out a holographic replica. I will say my sister always tells me that the holodeck was used
00:14:21
Speaker
to satisfy the sexual desires of people far away from home all the time, but I refuse to be that. But so... I'd like to know how your sister knows. Was she in a holiday? No, she just assumes. And I guess if you assume a sex-positive attitude that the future would have, not a more... You know, like just... That holiday would be really mucky. People have needs that they can't necessarily see with their crew members or are they far away from home or whatever. Yeah, I mean... That holiday would be really mucky.
00:14:52
Speaker
something called cleaning that maybe you haven't heard of, Jamie. I think that's beneath the cleaning spot to be able to clean up. No, sorry, that's a terrible thing. It's like a robot, robot cleaner. Yeah. I do allude to that at various points in Star Trek series. That's true. I was just glossing over those.
00:15:15
Speaker
I'd always imagine that maybe some people use it for that, but not everyone. Yes, yes. And you know, especially like the ponfart, you know, there's an episode. The what? The ponfart, is that what you call it? It's like the, not Klingon, what they called, it's the other one.
00:15:36
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Yes. That's it. Sorry. Yeah. Brain fog. Um, so when they have on far, that's like this period once every seven years where they absolutely have to make, and if they don't make, they die.
00:15:52
Speaker
And there is an episode, I think Red mentioned this one coming up at some point, but I think there is a suggestion during that episode that the person, because they can't make whatever reason, uses the holiday. So really it can be used in that way.
00:16:10
Speaker
Yeah, seems very sensible approach. Do you really know shit? Oh my goodness. So many genies being less out of so many bottles here. And after you two have firmly dragged us into the gutter, it's time to move on to red. Oh, yes. My next talking point or point that resonated with you. Well, this is a very small point and not to take us back to near the beginning, but I did think it raised the eternal debate.
Homemade vs Store-bought Gifts Discussion
00:16:35
Speaker
when Niex is comparing his homemade cake with Tom's replicated slash, what we could consider, port locket, an eternal debate between homemade gifts and pockets. I was like, what side of the debate do you lie on? I love it. Red's taking us back to the higher ethics. I don't know what that noise was. Oh, have I disconnected? No, we can hear you. It's a professionally run show here. I like it.
00:17:03
Speaker
Sorry, Jane. It's okay. We could hear you. Could you hear us? No, because I think my headphones decided to react to something that I said and block off all sound.
Nostalgia and Personal Connections to Star Trek
00:17:13
Speaker
We were just commenting on how much we appreciated the fact that we had a high effects budget. No, I'm just kidding.
00:17:23
Speaker
No, I agree. That's quite an interesting take. And it's gebelian fudge cake versus, you know, replicated locket, albeit one bought at extremely high cost. So it's not just homemade versus bought, but it's homemade versus bought at great expense. Although, you know, I did love the fact that Tom tried to position himself as someone who wasn't counting the costs.
00:17:48
Speaker
That must have cost you 10 days Russians. 10 days holiday, not holiday, but replicator Russians. Tony, but who's counting? Well, I guess if it was fudge cake, I might go with that actually. In general, I prefer the port goods, but for cake, I'll make an exception. The germanian fudge cake was beautifully iced as well with this deep navy blue depiction of the spatial void galaxy. Oh, yes.
00:18:14
Speaker
It does sound and look kind of delicious, I think. But it's been forever ruined for me by this episode in another series of Star Trek. I don't know if you know what I'm talking about, Red. I think I'll remember when you say it, but I have forgotten. It's when Diana in Next Gen is having some kind of hallucinational dream. She's having a lot. She dreams she is a cake.
00:18:44
Speaker
It's really horrible, and it's like a gebelian fudge cake in that same blue, so that's forever ruined the cake for me. But it's an interesting point, Red. I think... Where do we all land on that spectrum?
Thoughtfulness Behind Gift-giving
00:18:58
Speaker
Yeah, because, I mean, if it's homemade cake, oh, that is pretty... That's good. That's pretty high. That's the good stuff. I feel like, for me, it doesn't matter either way. It's when someone gets you something that they obviously put a lot of thought into that's specific to you.
00:19:15
Speaker
I think that's really lovely, whether it's bought or made. I agree. Although when you first started to answer that, I thought because of when it happened, you were going to say, yeah, homemade is great, but because of the fact you said, but I thought you could go, but I prefer someone to spend an awful whack of money on me. And I was like, that seems out of character. No, that doesn't sound like journey. I just think, yeah, I think I prefer like bought stuff
00:19:44
Speaker
But it doesn't have to be expensive. But keg is always the top. I think either can be amazing, but it's more the thought into it and care into it to match the gift with the person receiving it that really says something.
Personal Anecdotes and Episode Themes
00:20:02
Speaker
Although the fact that I just can't be trusted with gifts, you know, probably undermines my belief in that argument.
00:20:08
Speaker
This is probably a topic for another podcast. We will have marriage therapy here if we need to, Red. We will have marriage therapy because this podcast is for odd eats. It does make me think of how, it's funny how often Red, I see, it's always dresses, but I always seem to see dresses that I think Red would love that.
00:20:33
Speaker
I do love dresses, it's the only thing I enjoy by. There was these amazing fluid golds. Yeah, they're like wild colours or textures or something. I saw one the other day which was this like black and lime green, I think, pattern and sort of short and very slinky and I just thought, I bet Red would love that.
00:20:58
Speaker
Sounds great. It sounds like a dress I actually had when I was like 20 now, I think about it. And you wonder why we know your taste. Yeah. Back to you guys. No, no, no. I mean, I think we're still sort of hammering out the gift given versus homemade, sorry, homemade versus money spent gift thing. And I don't think we've come firmly on any other, any side of the line. I think if I'm understanding you correctly, Jenny is with, you know,
00:21:26
Speaker
prefer homemade but really it's about the taste, red I think you're saying likewise the thought that people give and I actually don't have an opinion so damn Star Trek hasn't helped us to resolve this one which is disappointing but it has done what it was needed to which was to prove the catalyst for a more deep meaningful and thoughtful conversation on the issues the episode threw up so I'm happy with that.
00:21:51
Speaker
Yeah. Jenny, you next. Next thought, conversation point. Bit that stroke you. Stroke you, stroke you, stroke you. No, sorry. Well, this is a talking point which I'm keen to hang all thoughts on.
Janeway's Appreciation of Harry Kim
00:22:06
Speaker
Oh, you weren't on any of the other points. No, Jenny, let us be.
00:22:13
Speaker
Of course I am. Always, always fascinating. Anyway, it's literally just that I do love the Janeway appreciation of Harry Kim while they're courting in the Juby Dingamy Bobs, which I've forgotten the name of. Jeffrey Stoops.
00:22:32
Speaker
I did think it was a very strange choice of timing. They were like alone in these tiny intimate waters where they were sort of sandwiched together and also facing imminent risk of death and destruction of ship.
00:22:54
Speaker
Well, yeah, because I actually like I get it like later on in the episode when it's like a given that everyone's apparently about to die. But it feels really weird because at that stage, they're just crawling around a Jeffrey's tube, the situation seems under control. And
00:23:13
Speaker
The captain turns around and then suddenly gets really emotional with Harry Kim and that, you know, it doesn't chime with me.
Timing and Emotional Impact of Janeway's Actions
00:23:19
Speaker
You know, it was really weird. So I'm not sure.
00:23:26
Speaker
What did you think, Red? Because you were the seasoned and hardened Star Trek cordurologist. Or rather rose-centered glasses. But I think even when I was watching, I was like, you know, you mentioned it. I'm like, why is this happening now? I mean, I think maybe not. I wasn't disturbed by the close quarters, I think. But it was like, at that point, were they ready and that much? Danger? I mean, maybe she never has that one-on-one time with Harry Kim that often.
00:23:54
Speaker
But yeah, I get what you're saying, I guess. It almost felt as though they were writing it in, in order to allow the captain to have a meaningful moment with a crew member when everyone else was going to get on later, because she was obviously unconscious. Yeah, it's interesting. How do they all deal without the chief around the place?
00:24:16
Speaker
Yeah, it didn't occur to me before that that would be a reason like they're trying to write it in because she won't get her opportunity to do it later until you were just speaking about it now, Jane.
Starfleet Dynamics and Humorous Exchanges
00:24:25
Speaker
And I was like, that is probably why I guess, isn't it? It's a bit, it's just a bit out of place. But because she later on can't speak, basically. She kind of has to have a moment earlier, as you say. Yeah.
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah, it was, it was a weird one. Um, I always, whenever he does get any credits, I just always think about the fact that he's never promoted. I'm like, doesn't matter if she thinks you're great. I mean, I mean, he's already part of her SLT anyway. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Don't feel too sorry for him. You know, I wouldn't want people going easy on Harry Kim and knowing Harry Kim for who he is, he wouldn't want you going easy on him. That's true. That's true.
Confronting Mortality and Finding Unity
00:25:14
Speaker
Okay, since you all got mushy and salacious with Sandrine and Harry Kim, I am going to go with the absolute shallowness of the fact that I found it unexpectedly moving and solemn in a Star Trek episode during the last moment where they all realized that they cannot escape.
00:25:39
Speaker
the encroaching spatial distortion as it shrinks and shrinks and shrinks into the holodeck room and they each find a way of finding closeness and collect connection with each other and of meeting death with dignity with Tuvok effectively continuing to embrace his creed of logic in the face of everything and mandating let's take a moment and pause
00:26:08
Speaker
from trying to escape the spatial distortion, because we've no reason to actually think that something bad happens. And I feel in a way he's trying to get them to find a moment to take a bit of dignity in the face of oncoming death. Him himself and Jacote finding a moment to acknowledge their respect through their differences.
00:26:31
Speaker
and the various other ways in which people find connection in that scene. I find really, really touching and moving, and maybe you both can touch on some of the other ways, but because I've barely scratched the surface of the connections in that... Tuvok obviously taking a moment
00:26:50
Speaker
place a hand on uh captain january's couch okay oh hand up gosh no no no interrupt me interrupt me okay kez realizing that she should be with neelix um and panicking about the fact that he she wasn't and t-book actually comforting her her by saying that uh the doctor sorry the doctor comforting her and saying that um
00:27:14
Speaker
Neelix is one of the most resilient and resourceful individuals he's ever come across, and them finding that mode's connection. And the various others in that room. But I don't know, how did that seem to strike you? Because to me, it actually struck quite a note, but in a starter at universe, it might be quite easy to make that a bit earnest.
00:27:36
Speaker
No, I mean, I think I agree. And the other nice moment was between Chikotei.
Chakotay's Spiritual Preparation and Bonds
00:27:42
Speaker
I thought it was interesting because he sits down to, I guess, prepare spiritually for what they don't know what is going to come, but could be.
00:27:50
Speaker
depth. And she goes and she's like, you know, what are you doing? And then she's like, I could use some spiritual guidance. And I thought, hey, they have that connection from being both being my key, but probably they have two of the strongest afterlife beliefs. I don't want to say this because as a Klingon, you know, she has that whole next thing. Yes, thank you. I have to say it. I will go blank if someone else can say it. I will remember. So, um, uh, so I also really liked that there moment for sure. Hmm.
00:28:20
Speaker
Yeah, I think probably all in agreement that that was really nice scene. And it's just sort of, I felt like it was just showing all the different ways people
00:28:32
Speaker
accept or face or deal with their own mortality, I guess. And I just quite enjoyed seeing all the like, quite different reactions. There's a lot of contrast, like Balana initially was just fighting and fighting to try and stay alive and would have just fought till the end and you know, cling on tradition, go down fighting. But actually then, you know, when Shikote says we're gonna
00:28:57
Speaker
we're gonna go with Tuvok's idea of just sort of letting it happen. She, I guess, I guess she is listening to her more human half when she just she sort of calms down after that point. And then you see as Red says the more sort of spiritual side of her. And then I thought it was like a nice sort of contrast showing, obviously, the doctor comforting cares.
Tuvok's Logical Approach to Crisis
00:29:23
Speaker
And like,
00:29:24
Speaker
Harry, little Harry and Tom Parris sort of showing their romance love for each other. But then you've also got those moments in contrast with like Tuvok and Takote telling each other what they think of each other. Amazingly like, you know, you're an arrogant SOB.
00:29:43
Speaker
It's not every time that Tuvok acknowledges that he finds someone arrogant. Yes, as you're about to die, Tuvok is like, I find you arrogant and irritating, but that was a nice, a lot of moments in a character arc where they have someone special. Yeah, and I also like the fact that
00:30:05
Speaker
universally they all sought to help how they managed or not how they managed but how they how they survived the situation through togetherness through their connections to each other and that was really lovely yeah so if we're really bad off to dragging it to the gutter dragging it out of this again
00:30:33
Speaker
Yeah.
Leadership Styles and Decision-making
00:30:34
Speaker
Sorry, I suppose we should move on to the next point. And I think the circle of doom has wheeled back to red to get us away from the seriousness and back with the frivolous, or vice versa, away from the frivolous and back into the serious. Well, as we hinted at, there was also that kind of moment, Shikote and Tubak, and they kind of have a few short moments before they
00:30:58
Speaker
You know, they disagree about their plan of how to code to Mexico. It's like, I'm the first officer, not you, even though Tupac tries to say, well, Jane often used to listen to me as a tactical officer.
00:31:10
Speaker
then that plan doesn't work out. But when Tuvok says, we'll see, I think we just introduced nothing because we don't, he takes a step back and he realizes they don't actually know they're going to die. They don't actually know Jamie's dying. They actually don't really know enough to make any decisions. So all they can do is wait because every time they try and fix it, it kind of, kind of accelerates the process. But I just love his line and I thought, is this a line I should be using at work more often when
00:31:39
Speaker
Jacoze does agree with what Tuvok says. I want to thank you for endorsing my recommendation. Maybe this is why I'm not getting ahead at work because I don't say these kinds of things to myself. That is amazing. I would never say thank you for endorsing my recommendation. I'd be like, yeah, thanks for seeing it the way I do. I'm a genius. Let's all move on. I mean, I don't say that a bit out loud, but it's like...
00:32:03
Speaker
As in, like, I'm not thinking of it as like endorsing my recommendation. If someone, if I get people to see it my way, then we just move on to the next thing. Or I go to see it their way and we move on to the next thing. No one is saying, but that's what maybe I should be saying that in the office. We would help with office politics or something. It's a really professional line, isn't it? I'm going to try and use that. I think I'm going to give it a go.
Tim Russ's Portrayal of Tuvok
00:32:31
Speaker
We can all learn so much from 2VOC in our workplace. Yes. And I just, while speaking of 2VOCs, I don't think I'll have any more points. I'll quickly just lump this in here. But I love
00:32:45
Speaker
I love Tim Ross. It's like, I don't think this is the correct term, but I'm calling it micro acting just throughout this episode because I know all actors act with their face and all these actors are very good, but he has to do these like little moves with his eyebrows. He's like, you know, I've just convey his forgiveness and I really, I really do it. Yeah. Yeah. He is absolutely superb. I just always enjoyed it. I find his my own slightly
00:33:12
Speaker
Well, there's an actor within the Rings of Power, or an actor or character, who's my own, I find quite similar to Tuvox. And I'm sort of wondering, Gem, can you guess who it is? If not, you know, we'll watch some more Rings of Power and you can take guesses at the later stage. No, I can't really. I'm not sure. It might be the fact that they've just got pointy ears as well, but anyway.
00:33:41
Speaker
I actually, yeah, I mean, I can kind of see the sort of elf Vulcan thing in general. And in fact, yeah, I mean, because there's a sense of well, the Vulcans are unemotional, very emotionally because of the whole repressing and logic is king, whereas and the elves are I don't know, I guess they are portrayed kind of in an unemotional way, although I don't really know why that would be
00:34:11
Speaker
They portrayed us very, like, again, in control, I guess, and imperturbable. I think you're all giving far too much credence to what was sort of, you know, a flippant passing comment, probably only generated by an air fixation on my part. But yeah, thank you for trying to dignify up with some level of backing.
00:34:35
Speaker
I'm sorry you couldn't thank me for endorsing your recommendation. Gosh. Oh, it's a married bliss. Actually, do you know what, that phrase is going to be so useful. I take everything back. Thank you, Red, for emphasising it into the conversation. Now, the wheel spins once more. Jenny, your second point.
00:35:06
Speaker
I've done three, surely. No, I've only done two. Nelix comedy at the beginning, the Janeway appreciation of Harry and then the sort of different reactions. And we all appreciate Harry, beautiful man. We do, we do. So yeah, I've run out. I can do more for next time.
00:35:28
Speaker
No, that's fine. You skipped back to Jamie. Gosh, I somehow did four of yours in two points. So my third and final one was the awesome wackiness of a building like Hogwarts where everything is shifting position around
Shifting Environment as Magical Adventure
00:35:43
Speaker
the corner. Can we take a moment to appreciate how if it wasn't an incoming shrinking death by crushing trap, how much fun that would have been. I love that this is something that really resonated with you, Jamie. That's all I was thinking of.
00:35:56
Speaker
Oh, mate, come on, how much fun would that be? I step round the corner and, you know, I'm at the top of the Eiffel Tower. It would be awesome. Okay, so if I took two steps down here and I found myself in a lovely, delightful hot bath, as opposed to, you know, in the middle of a carpet, which is what would happen, you know, physically. I don't know, I think I would feel very drunk if I was in there. Well, in a very bad dream.
00:36:24
Speaker
Well, I don't know. I just think it kept pushing them all back where they needed to be, which was together, be it together at Chissontrines. That's interesting. Jenny's not convinced. Really? Yeah, no, I'm trying to imagine it. And I'm trying to imagine it, obviously, without the idea that the ship is being crushed and I'm going to die.
Reactions to Changing Physical Environment
00:36:48
Speaker
And it's just like a quirky thing where you try and go one place and you end up another place and it's constantly changing.
00:36:54
Speaker
It sounds kind of awful to me. Yes. Not fun at all.
00:36:59
Speaker
But Jamie, on this weird train of thought that you have, I have to say when I saw the distortion passing through them and they're all like waving, waving, I was like, that looks kind of relaxing. I mean, if you meditated and you just started like spontaneously waving like that, I think that would be quite relaxing. But maybe that's a cheap thing. I don't know why, but it makes me feel like it would do zorbing in the middle of one of those sort of flotation tanks. I feel like it would be a good hybrid of those two experiences.
00:37:30
Speaker
But Jamie, when are we going to go zorbing? You said that video right in the chat. How, I mean, this makes me sound like I'm spreading pornography and, you know, violence. You didn't make clear that the video was zorbing. For those who haven't seen the video and given our readership, that may not be our readership, our listenership, that may not be many.
00:37:52
Speaker
It has a man in a giant zorb being tapped by a lady with a golf club and flying off into the air 100 metres and then sort of landing and bouncing along the place. Which we have yet to determine if it's real or AI-generated.
00:38:08
Speaker
Well, Zorbing does exist. I've never seen that, like, golfing of a Zorb. But Jenny, I think if Jenny was in that Zorb, I find it very satisfying to... What? And I mean, that sound makes it sound as though you've, you know, done a poo and I've gone somewhere. But what have I ever done to you to make you want to golf Zorb me? You sent me that video and it looks very appealing. That's what I'm saying.
00:38:34
Speaker
Yeah, but why should I be the one in the golf store? Because you saved the video. I mean, there's something extreme Zorb golf. I mean, human Zorb ball on golf course.
Skepticism Around Viral Videos
00:38:47
Speaker
I mean, this is TikTok and I'm finding this as I'm doing live research for the podcast. I don't know, you know, that there's
00:38:57
Speaker
There's stuff. It might not be real though. Yeah, when I saw that I thought that doesn't look quite correct in the terms of physics. That's how I understand. Just as in not safe enough for the person in the soul. Thus die all my dreams. It's all being exist. It's all being exist. Mayor. Does anyone know what dream is in Latin?
00:39:28
Speaker
Yes. And that was Pig Latin and any of our listeners and you know, there have been some who've made unkind comments about my personal style on these podcasts may continue with the, I mean, there was one at least, I'm still reeling from it. But yes, they may take issue with my Pig Latin as well.
00:39:54
Speaker
That exhausts my three things. Red, have we exhausted yours? Or are you still getting strong? No, I'm done. Happy to go on to themes if we haven't covered them. Yes, I think we should. I think we should. So, what themes rang loud? What themes ran deep? And what themes resonated with you all, channeling the power of three that we were already using for this episode?
00:40:18
Speaker
That was beautiful, Jay. That was beautiful. I only learned from my presenters previously. I need to think a little bit more. I think you guys are more prepared on the theme side. How can we toss the baton? Mortality is the ever-closing spatial distortion.
00:40:38
Speaker
That was one. Oh, sorry. Do we discuss it or do we keep on with my other themes? Oh, God. Well, I mean, I've been thinking about death a lot lately, ever since I watched this episode about five hours ago, in fact. And I was really desperate for a theme, so it sounded like something deep that I could put as a theme before going back to my typical frivolity.
00:41:01
Speaker
but no I think the fact of it always ever closing in and being something that people try and escape and out run and out manoeuvre and out think and out fight in exactly the way that Jenny was saying earlier but ultimately have to come to terms with at death I think is a really powerful metaphor but also that transformation in facing it of
00:41:25
Speaker
the personalities into a stronger place.
Spatial Distortion as Mortality Metaphor
00:41:29
Speaker
And also that suggestion of it is not the end, but also not a negative thing that I think 2Vox interpretation and suggestion of ceasing the running suggests a quite powerful metaphor for. I think that's particularly star trekking. I don't know if others feel differently.
00:41:54
Speaker
Well, you have triggered a memory. I mean, a lot of memory, but I did have to deal with the spatial distortion of Spaceship 2. No. Sorry, I found it correctly. But the whole, I mean, I am a woman of few words and few actions, to be honest. So I'm always, I'm always starting back. Well, that's her own podcast. As an efficiently, well, I mean,
00:42:24
Speaker
So I try to do things as efficiently as possible, I guess maybe. And so when 2Vox suggests that they should just do nothing, it did actually remind me, Jamie, of product management because
00:42:34
Speaker
And I'm sure all projects, like when things are going wrong and everyone's just trying to fight fires and trying to like run around like headless chickens, it's helpful to have someone just take a step back and be like, wait, is what we're doing actually helping us achieve our goal? Or do we actually not have enough information to act right now? So a very random product management or such work theme, but yeah.
00:42:57
Speaker
And actually, weirdly, it resonates a lot with the Bible verse I read lately, which I've actually read to the effect of, be still and let the Lord fight for you. And it's an oddly similar parallel, and one which I question joy.
Calmness in Stillness and Biblical Parallels
00:43:11
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes, especially in my, you know, Western, 21st century world, it's like, act, act, act, act, do, do, do, do. It's almost like, you know, someone wants us to stop thinking. That's weird. So sometimes it's just gonna stop.
00:43:26
Speaker
and let whatever's happening pass over, pass through. Sometimes emotions, sometimes it's... I feel that Jenny's Zen is absolutely channeling that theme, so I'm going to intrude her and ask for one of her themes. Yeah, well, no, I was enjoying just listening to your two thoughts on that theme, actually. It's important to me to ruin it. Yes, yes. No, it's beautiful. I like that passage from the Bible. It sounds lovely.
00:43:51
Speaker
It's all quite interesting. And yeah, I mean, I obviously have the same theme. I think that was one of the key. And then I also have noted down like jealousy. That was quite a stop. Because it wasn't just Neelix of Paris.
00:44:07
Speaker
But then also tied up neatly at the end, I thought Tuvok of Chakotay, when he's explaining that there was a certain amount of something. Yeah, when Chakotay was, you know, put his second-in-command ahead of Tuvok.
Revisiting Jealousy in Character Interactions
00:44:25
Speaker
And then when I thought about that as a theme, I couldn't actually think of any other examples, but I felt like there probably was. So I was going to see if Yuzu spotted any anywhere.
00:44:37
Speaker
Well, yes, I mean, I 100% agree the jealousy theme runs through it. A lot of it is Neelix. And as you said, it's not only Neelix in Paris, like when Neelix and Kiss are getting lost on the deck and she's like, this room shouldn't be here. He's like, how do you know this room is here? How do you know the way Hargreaves lives? How do you know? And what's very funny is that he is, you know, when you watch someone else be jealous, it's so transparent.
00:45:02
Speaker
Like he's like trying to act as if he's not jealous, but you can tell he is. And I just thought that I'm jealous. It's that you're weird, sir. There are gaslighting moments like that. I agree. But I hadn't picked up, but I think that's a really good parallel that you picked up on me with them. I think we're all passing a massive elephant in the room theme, but I'm conscious I've already come in with one. So Red, what's yours? Oh no, I'm done. Go for it.
00:45:32
Speaker
Oh, I think none of us have focused enough on the importance of birthday parties. Do you want another surprise birthday party, Jamie? Or a 30th birthday party? No, do you know what? I just want to actually plan one that actually functions. No, that's not it at all. Although how awesome did that cake look? Sorry, Jen, your hand leapt up as to contradict me. No, no. I've thought better of it.
00:46:02
Speaker
You can go. Excellent. I mean, to be fair, I do support other people having birthday party parties and I have already got into my own birthday parties. I mean, I was never against throwing a party, but I love my 40th so much that I'm like, when can I do it again? Your 41st? Brilliant. Brilliant fun. Very well. Your 41st? Well, that's fun. Yes.
00:46:29
Speaker
Really? I just thought you were 39. I can't wait. I think I will do that again in the next year or two. At the end, I was just like, I don't want to go home. I don't want this to be over. I just had so much fun. It was so awesome. Especially running around like airplanes and planes. That was so cool. But Jamie, you can have a birthday party in your new home. Yeah, I don't want to trash the place. Well, we'll just have another garden. I don't want to trash the garden. I'm also not sure I want the neighbours to see people around there.
00:47:00
Speaker
his wife and one of his best friends. Well, looking back, I never had a house woman because I didn't want my flat to get trashed, even though when I moved in, there was nothing too trashed. I should have just had a pet.
00:47:12
Speaker
Missed the opportunity to go big there. And no one was going to trash it. Missed opportunity. Missed opportunity. Well, I mean, I was going. So, you know, I used to drink a bit more in those days. All that sort of stuff. And have less fat to hide it with. Yeah. Did anyone also? Wait, I have one more theme that was interesting to me. But did anyone else have any more for any more? I had a really
00:47:41
Speaker
I had, I don't know one, but I also feel like I could almost say it for every episode. So I don't know. But I felt like trust was prevalent throughout in a lot of the.
00:47:56
Speaker
interactions people were having. It was, you know, I guess I'm thinking about it now in terms of they're more trusting 2GOC at the end. But then also, obviously, the Neelix has to try and learn to trust Kez. I feel like there's probably other examples as well. I can't think about them now. But I just came to mind when I was in good teams.
00:48:25
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm getting distracted because I've got my noise cancelling headphones on, but I can still hear my laptop.
00:48:32
Speaker
I can hear it. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Isn't that for your professional laptop? Boom. I was like, it's been ticking this whole time. You didn't tell me. We thought it was your kitchen clock, Rad. Everyone felt very socially awkward. No one wanted to tell you. Okay, stop there. I mean, I have a view. I have a firm view. Danny looks very keen to share his stop there.
00:49:00
Speaker
a little bit actually. Yeah, because right his wife, because I think it would probably be someone who I will probably never choose again. They're not my favorite character. Fantastic job.
00:49:20
Speaker
the acting is hilarious and over the top and I would actually probably choose Neelix this one. I just really enjoyed his little storyline of like now he's sort of exploring the feeling of jealousy and how to not let that rule behaviour and he's really struggling with it and he's sort of reaching out for help to Chakotay and I just enjoyed Chakotay's advice as well. So maybe there's a place
00:49:47
Speaker
Nice. I can't believe none of us mentioned, but I think we should get an Arbal mention that Neelix managed to get himself lost in like one second. Yeah, I was like, you really are deploying the Neelix is an idiot device, very proactively, this episode, people. They were like, when they were writing, they were like, we have to remove him because he cannot be in the end scene because he'll ruin the serious tone.
00:50:13
Speaker
It's very philosophical and calm. Red, your laptop has turned into a drone. Yes, I'm just, sorry, plugging it in because it might not last the last few minutes. But no wonder Jenny was so excited because, yes, it does seem a little bit unlikely, but you will get another nomination. Yeah. OK, Red, how about your nomination? I think that's a very strong nomination, Jenny, and I agree with that. Although it's not mine. Thank you for endorsing my recommendation.
00:50:44
Speaker
I didn't endorse it. I reacted positively to it. There's an odd difference there. Jamie, you also look like you're ready to share your stop. Whereas I'm still thinking of it. I have a left field choice here. I think mine needs to be taken in the context of the fact that the entire Delta Quadrant, right?
00:51:02
Speaker
has been trying to nick the entirety of Voyager's knowledge, base, intellectual property, technology, everything like that, and not gotten even close to it. And there is one entity, one unit in this, that manages not only to do that, but to bring the crew closer together and bond them in a meaningful moment facing the ultimate void together.
00:51:30
Speaker
and do so in such a way that they are grateful for it and Janeway interprets it as a positive interaction when they nick their entire database and absolutely overload it to the point of crashing with all their own information. I'm speaking, of course, of the episode Star Player, The Spatial Distortion. Oh, very nice. Yeah, I like it. I think that's a high-performing effort from whoever was SRO of that endeavor.
00:52:00
Speaker
Oh, I figure that's fair. That's fair. Um, I think very, if I may go next, I'm just gonna say Captain Janeway, even though she didn't do a lot, she had to do stuff in that
00:52:13
Speaker
when she like snaps out and has to say that stuff like gobbledygook. I found that very entertaining, I guess. I must have said that very well. So she will be nice out there. That's a really good point. And can I actually on that, just ask one question. Did anyone else, I tend to watch things with subtitles these days. As a millennial. Oh, that must have been entertaining on subtitles. No, well, here's the thing. You'll never guess what.
00:52:42
Speaker
They put it up in full English. She was actually apparently saying things that have come up on screen. It's just telling them what to do, basically. Just let the spatial distortion go through.
00:53:02
Speaker
Yeah, basically. That's so funny. That's like cheating with the, um, I'm not cheating, but, uh, yeah, to kind of like infer that that's what she was saying. But at the afterwards, it was like, did we ever find out what she was saying? So now you have asked her that question. That's how you find out, apparently. Yeah. Oh, amazing. Yes. Apparently I did see a headline. I didn't read the article, but a lot of millennials and Gen Z watch the subtitles on, or maybe it was just millennials.
00:53:28
Speaker
I wonder why. Because the sound quality of so many shows is so bad. See, I don't do that. But I think it's because I only rewatch old shows. Yeah, no, you said that. Honestly, some films, this is this is my like, old lady pet peeve thing that, you know, Jamie gets tired of me ranting about. Like, some films sound the sound is ludicrous. They've got this, the volume of the backing music.
00:53:54
Speaker
is so much louder than the dialogue. If I wanted to sit for two hours and listen to music, then I'd go to a nice concert.
00:54:04
Speaker
Anyway, that's really funny because there's like this huge focus on like visuals and cinematography or whatever. And then they just churning out stuff and people can't hear what people are saying. Although there was also that phase where everything was really dark and no one could see what anyone was doing either. So it's like, what is the point? Yes, I'm glad someone asked about this. Well guys, I think we can probably wrap it up.
00:54:30
Speaker
That was a fun experiment. Yeah, sharp and function. Yeah, I think it worked quite well. Maybe I should just see if I can quickly play us out with this jingle, which I haven't done in a long time. Oh, how does this work again? That's not the one. See you in two weeks time. Bye, everybody. Bye, thank you.