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Shame’s Greatest Enemy: Vulnerability and the Road to Recovery.
191 Plays1 year ago
In this episode of the Shame(less) podcast, Ken sits down with Trevor Winsor, to uncover the transformative power of vulnerability in overcoming shame. Trevor shares his personal story of recovery, revealing how secrecy keeps men trapped in cycles of shame and addiction—and how true freedom is found through honest, authentic relationships.
Together, we discuss why both therapy and community are essential to healing and offer practical steps for men who want to embrace vulnerability on their own journeys.
Tune in to discover why vulnerability is shame's greatest enemy and how taking that first step can change everything.
Key Takeaways:
- Secrecy fuels shame, but vulnerability breaks its power.
- Therapy and trusted relationships together create a balanced path to recovery.
- Practical advice for Christian men to start embracing vulnerability in their lives.
You can find Trevor on Linkedin .
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:30
kenfreire
All right. Welcome back to another episode today. We are going to be talking about shame's greatest enemy and the secret to recovery with Trevor Windsor.
00:00:42
kenfreire
Now, Trevor, I'm super excited to have you because you are a licensed pastor and a pastoral sex addiction professional, right? Through, if I remember correctly, the international Institute of trauma and addiction professionals, correct?
00:00:54
Trevor Winsor
Mm hmm.
00:00:56
kenfreire
Sweet. also have a bachelor's in psychology from Corbin University and a master's in ministry and leadership from Western Seminary. Trevor, you are a podcaster and a communicator who is passionate about integrating trauma and addiction healing with spiritual disciplines to produce holistic healing.
00:01:21
Trevor Winsor
yeah I'm with you, dude. I mean, I was coming in today. I was thinking by the end of this, you're going to ask me to co-host your podcast with you. Like that's just how, that's the vibe I'm feeling. So we're going to have too much fun.
00:01:29
kenfreire
That's what, that's what we're going to do.
00:01:31
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:01:31
kenfreire
We're going to be co-hosting and we're going to get canceled. This is going to be great all in one episode.
00:01:35
Trevor Winsor
Yeah. Let's do, let's do one before we do the other. Let's do one before the other. Yeah, we got it.
00:01:40
kenfreire
Sounds good. Sounds good.
Trevor's Background and Aspirations
00:01:41
kenfreire
Okay. Uh, well, Trevor, man, before we, we jump into this, um, tell the audience something fun about yourself.
00:01:49
Trevor Winsor
Oh, gosh, man. Well, I'm a seven on the Enneagram, so there's a lot of fun in my life. And so for any of those people who know the Enneagram, I think one of the fun things is I am an aspiring writer. I'm probably like, I don't know, 30, 40 pages away from finishing a novel. And I've got in the chamber, I have a TV show that I want to write.
00:02:14
Trevor Winsor
And so, yeah, I've got all this like ministry nonprofit experience, but at the same time, I love books and I love movies and I want to be in both. So yeah, I'd say that's fun.
00:02:26
kenfreire
That's awesome, man, I love it It's too bad that you decided to quote the Enneagram because we're gonna have to cancel this episode now, but after that we're fine No, no dude, that's good, that's good, okay, so don't forget about me when you become famous and you write your book That's all I'm saying and your novels and everything
00:02:33
Trevor Winsor
Oh, perfect. Oh, we're already getting canceled. All right, perfect. Perfect.
00:02:45
Trevor Winsor
I mean, you're one to talk. You've got your, you know, other shows you're a part of too. So let's not get too ahead of ourselves here.
00:02:54
kenfreire
All right, Trevor, man, let's jump into it.
Early Exposure to Shame
00:02:57
kenfreire
Can you share a little bit about your story with Lusted Pornography?
00:03:02
Trevor Winsor
Yeah. I think a pretty standard story I think for people. was exposed I think around 10 or 11 years old to pornography. close friend of mine was like, check out this cool thing on the internet.
00:03:14
Trevor Winsor
It was before full on porn was on the internet.
00:03:18
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:03:19
Trevor Winsor
It was just a lot of naked pictures. And obviously, first time you see that, your mind just explodes. I didn't even know what to do with any of that information. Um, I think that that kind of, you know, ah ah led to, I mean, we're going to get into a lot of stuff with Shane, but it's like, there was something in me.
00:03:36
Trevor Winsor
I knew it was wrong. I knew something about this wasn't normal. Um, I mean, you know, he showed it to me after his parents were asleep downstairs in the basement on a computer with the door shut.
00:03:46
Trevor Winsor
Like, you know, like the setting was clear around the same time.
00:03:47
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:03:51
Trevor Winsor
Um, we were living in a neighborhood and I remember, um, back in the good old days when you let kids just going to go out for hours and play in the cold sack and then come back later. Uh, that's my childhood. Um, I remember hearing the F word for the first time from a friend and later that night, and it's so interesting to me how seared this moment is in my memory. I remember I was laying on our couch out in our living room. My parents were tucking me and I have no idea why I was sleeping on the couch that night.
00:04:19
Trevor Winsor
But I asked my parents about this word that I heard and the immediate response from my mom was, oh honey, we do not say that word in this house. And so what I didn't know at the time is that immediately I felt shame around the topic of sexuality because I find out what this word means.
00:04:38
Trevor Winsor
But the first reaction is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like no, no, no, we don't talk about that.
00:04:41
kenfreire
And.
00:04:41
Trevor Winsor
Don't say that word. And so for me that just kind of created this space where my parents aren't safe This is not something that we can talk about in the house and you know that paired with being exposed to pornography around the same time like Okay, this is something that's now secret and this is my house is not a safe place to explore this topic
00:05:02
kenfreire
Yeah, dude. I remember the first time I, um, Confessed to my parents, especially my dad that I had masturbated. And it was one of those things where it was just like, I did this thing and you know, I'm like 13 or something like that.
00:05:14
kenfreire
I don't even know. I don't have the words to articulate what happened.
00:05:15
Trevor Winsor
Yep.
00:05:18
kenfreire
And he was, it was such awkward moment for him that he was like, Oh, uh, it happens.
00:05:19
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:05:24
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:05:24
kenfreire
Tucks me into bed and we've never talked about it. And I had that same feeling of like, okay, I guess I should never bring this up. Like it's super quiet, right? So I know how that affected me, but how did that affect your life?
00:05:39
Trevor Winsor
Yeah, I think ah ah secrecy and shame are married together. think that they're you best friends. I think know feeling that sense of shame, knowing it was wrong, and then seeing how negatively my parents reacted to it.
00:05:53
Trevor Winsor
told me like, okay, if I think about this, I have to keep it secret. Like, this isn't a safe place for me to talk about it. And I think that this just started my life of secrecy, which I think was fueled by shame, but I didn't realize that was the case. I also got into this mindset, and I've heard a number of people say it this way, that, um um and I believe the founder of Peer Desire Ministry, Dr. Ted Roberts said it, that one of the you don't know where everyone, all your listeners are at on the religious kind spectrum, but I come from a Christian background, so definitely heavy right and wrong. you A lot of principles, a lot of this is how we do life. But there's this you saying from Dr. Ted that the enemy or the devil inflicts everyone with the same disease and then convinces everyone they're the only one who struggles with it.
00:06:46
Trevor Winsor
And so for me, this like secrecy and shame led to a belief that I'm the only person that struggles with this, which means I can't really talk to anybody else about it. And if I do, I'm afraid I'm going to get the same reaction from my parents who love me more than anybody. But if that's how they respond, then how will a friend at school or a pastor or somebody else respond? And yeah, I think I I didn't really know it then, but know it now that I didn't see anybody as safe. And so that meant that I needed to do this alone. And that is extremely challenging. Some aspects to kind of my life growing up that contributed is that my dad, who's been my hero my whole life, was Superman to me. I think I've seen him cry a total of
00:07:35
Trevor Winsor
Now he's getting older, he's a little softer, but growing up, I saw him maybe cry twice. And honestly, he just seemed like he didn't have any problems, any issues.
00:07:45
Trevor Winsor
so for me, he was Superman. And the irony is that I needed Clark Kent, not Superman as my dad.
00:07:47
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:07:51
Trevor Winsor
I needed to know that you had flaws and that you had challenges like I did and that I can come talk to you. I didn't get that vibe. so for me, the person I looked up to, I was ah ah afraid of judgment. I was afraid of you rejection. I think for me, seeing that picture of who my dad is, it's like, well, I'm never going to get there. But if I want to get there, I have to pretend or I have to keep secrets in order to do that. Because clearly, my dad doesn't struggle with any of this stuff, which of course is not true. Everyone struggles with something.
00:08:23
Trevor Winsor
so so Growing up in the Christian space and in the church, there's a lot of emphasis on accountability and repentance. And so spending time getting up the courage to then repent or ask for accountability, you get the like, oh, you you lose your virginity, it's like, oh, well, you're no longer a virgin.
00:08:44
Trevor Winsor
Your marriage is ruined, basically, is like the message that you tend to get.
00:08:46
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:08:48
Trevor Winsor
And know for me, the... I guess basically the tactics or the tools people would give me to try to break free from it or just try harder approaches. Like just need to like spend more time reading the Bible or you just need to pray.
00:09:02
Trevor Winsor
If you're tempted, just pray really, really, really really hard and then it's going to go away. It's like that stuff never worked. And so for me, that just started a shame cycle of people I trust and love are telling me this is going to work.
00:09:14
Trevor Winsor
I try to do it. I can't do it, which means I must not be good enough. And so I already have shame from the struggle itself, but now I've tried to break free from it and have shame
The Cycle of Secrecy and Self-Hatred
00:09:24
Trevor Winsor
even more. And so it's this double shame that just is this spiral. And so for me, you know, that's created, you know, I don't think I was ever in a space of self-harm or suicidal anything but there was definitely a hatred of myself that played out. That also led me to looking for acceptance in relationships where I'm sexually acting out in my dating relationships and you the same time feeling tons of shame because I know that that's also, that doesn't resonate with who I am or how I want to live my life but because of the shame and the secrecy
00:09:59
Trevor Winsor
it was a place I was being accepted and someone was seeing who I was. And so, you know, there's also pleasure tied to it. And so it's obviously, my brain's like, yeah, let's do more of that. And, you know, again, to kind of wrap it all up, like I knew all this stuff was wrong, but I was stuck and I didn't know what to do about it.
00:10:13
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:10:16
kenfreire
Yeah. I think that's the hardest part for a lot of listeners and people who struggle with it. It's like they know that they shouldn't do it, but they've tried all these things and it like very similar much what you're talking about, right?
00:10:27
kenfreire
Like just try harder. Just pray harder. Uh, let's do all these behavior modification stuff. I remember one counselor was like, just put a rubber band on your, on your wrist. And every time it's just snap it.
00:10:36
Trevor Winsor
Yeah, snap it. Yeah.
00:10:38
kenfreire
I'm like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
00:10:40
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:10:41
kenfreire
Like, I didn't do it. I was like, how's that supposed to
00:10:44
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:10:47
kenfreire
But with people like that, right you specifically, what was the breaking point?
00:10:47
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:10:52
kenfreire
Because you had a lot of self-hatred, a lot of shame, a lot of stuff going on.
00:10:56
kenfreire
At what point were you like, enough's enough. I need a change. I need something different.
00:11:01
Trevor Winsor
Yeah. I'd love to say that it was like this beautiful moment of, you know, like King Saul, when he like comes to his senses in the wilderness and like, you know, all of a sudden it's this beautiful moment of self actualization.
00:11:13
Trevor Winsor
And it wasn't, it was, I was a youth pastor in Salem, Oregon. And I had parents come to me saying their kids were sexting each other.
00:11:22
Trevor Winsor
And they're like, what do we do?
00:11:23
kenfreire
Mm.
00:11:25
Trevor Winsor
And you the joke that I always say is that, as a good leader, I did the right thing by saying, I have no idea, but I'll go figure it out. you And so for me, that led me to pursuing resources that I had heard of, and that resource was pure desire ministries.
00:11:42
Trevor Winsor
I had some family working there at the time, went to an event thinking I'm going to get resources to kind of help my students and help this ministry and, you know, help other people. Of course, I know I'm struggling with this too, but, you know, obviously I'm just in denial. know, and I think that that's what happens. I think shame and secrecy over time cements into just denial. Like I'm not even willing to admit this is an issue anymore.
00:12:06
Trevor Winsor
I go to this event and it was interesting because the events up in Washington I think some guys from Canada who are impure desire groups came down and these so recovery groups they came down and We're at this event. I don't know these guys, but watching them interact and watching them talk to each other in the breaks and the way they're talking about their relationships, the way they're talking to each other and relating to each other. There's something so interesting and so attractive about it. Um, and I'm, I'm a detailed person. And so it actually drives me nuts that I can't even remember what exactly it was. There was just something about these guys, the way they were relating to each other. It's like,
00:12:46
Trevor Winsor
What's that? like That's interesting to me. I want some of that. I think it was at that event where I felt really clear, okay, I got to address this in my
Beginning of Recovery Journey
00:12:54
Trevor Winsor
life. And so you praise the Lord for ministry budgets, I was able to buy just a bunch of stuff and bring it back to our church and start a recovery ministry. um And you it's funny, I would say as a ah ah dad of two sons,
00:13:10
Trevor Winsor
There's a lot of power in a recovery journey starting to try to help someone else. I went into that event thinking, I'm going to get stuff to help other people. And then the Lord's like, well, by the way, dude, you got some stuff you got to work on too. I think that that's a great way. And so for me, that was a ah ah huge motivation for that. But yeah, coming home from that event,
00:13:32
Trevor Winsor
Man, I just hit the ground running. I started leading groups and started to see a ton. We'll get into some some of my story and how that played out, but started to see recovery in my own life, started to see the power of vulnerability, started to see the power of being open and honest. And yeah, man started to see hope for the first time that this is actually something you can get better, like, since something you have to be stuck with for the rest of your life. So yeah, it was those two parents coming to me, saying our kids are sexting each other that started my recovery journey nine years ago. No.
00:14:07
kenfreire
That's awesome, man. Talk to us a little bit about that hope, because I think so many people want that hope, but they don't even know what it looks like. you started to see that hope, what did that look like for you that you're like, I could actually beat this?
00:14:15
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:14:20
Trevor Winsor
I think it was when I started to see clarity around my story. I started to understand why I was doing what I was doing. you That's one of the things I'm so passionate about is it's not just read your Bible more, pray more, serve more, just pursue God more, do more spiritual things. like have to figure out why you're doing what you're doing.
00:14:42
Trevor Winsor
It's almost like saying your car is making this really crazy sound, so instead of opening the hood and trying to address what's going on, just keep driving. Keep driving. Keep doing what you're doing.
00:14:51
kenfreire
Turn up the music.
00:14:51
Trevor Winsor
It's going to get better. Right. Seriously. Yeah. Not that you those are ill-intentioned perspectives. I think that there's a lot of merit to those things, but when it's just that and you're not really addressing it, I think that that's the
00:15:05
Trevor Winsor
I started to see I grew up in a pretty rigid and disengaged home. I was trying to do a lot of behavior modification and I wasn't addressing the pain and difficulty in my life that had pushed me to sexual addiction, sexually acting out, pornography, whatever it was. I didn't realize where the problem really started. And so for me, when I figured that out, where I was like, oh, it's not just like, put all this accountability stuff on my computer and on my phone, or be honest whenever I can, it's figuring out why am I even going to those things in the first place. And that is when I first felt hope.
00:15:41
kenfreire
That's awesome, man. And you it's interesting that you talk about it because I talk a lot about getting to the roots of stuff, right? And you're talking about finding out the why. Why do you do this? Why it happens?
00:15:51
kenfreire
And I found like you don't do that and you don't know the why, what tends to happen is that you get a general principle to solve it.
00:15:58
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:15:59
kenfreire
Go pray. Go read more. But then that leads to inadequate results. Not to say that none of that stuff is doesn't work. it's
00:16:05
Trevor Winsor
Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:05
kenfreire
You never actually found out the reason and how does prayer and how does the Bible and how does all this stuff actually work? Like, you don't read the Bible. I'm like, well, what am I going to read? Leviticus? Like, that's not but it's finding those things.
00:16:14
Trevor Winsor
yeah Yeah. Right.
00:16:18
kenfreire
So what I would love to hear from you is as you started to find that hope, you mentioned something earlier about vulnerability and vulnerability playing a huge role in your recovery.
00:16:31
kenfreire
Walk us through how did that actually play out?
00:16:35
Trevor Winsor
Yeah, so it was in the first group that I led. And I've told this story a couple of times, but I would just say kind of going into my first group, I had handpicked 12 guys from the church who I knew would be committed, who were interested, who expressed you interest in being in the group. Man, like that by itself, the Lord showed up in incredible ways and that was super helpful for me, ah even in my story. tell this story, there was this guy that, there was a ah ah guy on staff at Pure Desire that I was trying to text to let him know, hey man, we're starting these groups, I'm really excited. Why I texted the wrong guy, same name, wrong guy. And he texts me back and he's like,
00:17:21
Trevor Winsor
Sorry, I think he texted the wrong person. I'm like, oh, my bad, man, I'll you go, like, thanks. And within seconds he texts me back, you know, kind of a snarky, sarcastic, like, well, maybe someday I'll be cool enough for you to tell me what this is.
00:17:34
Trevor Winsor
I'm like, all right, bro, you want to know what this is? Here's what's up. We're starting this group, dealing with sexual addiction. Within three seconds he texts me back. He's like, I'm in, it's been a problem for 25 years.
00:17:45
kenfreire
Wow.
00:17:45
Trevor Winsor
And so it's like, the Lord's like, having me send an accidental text to the wrong person to get this guy into groups. So it was just, it was crazy. And I would say even in that, even the openness of, hey man, we're starting a group, I think really invites people into that. But for me, that first group that I was in, was a six week group that we were going through a video series and we had decided that we're gonna do our full disclosure to share a whole story, each of us individually, one guy a week.
00:18:16
Trevor Winsor
And I had this one part of my story that I just, I was taken to my grave. No one else was gonna know about it. And it was just like me and God and maybe one other person.
00:18:27
Trevor Winsor
Um, I had a same sex experience, um, with a guy when I was in that like 10, 11, 12, you know, the exposure, shame, all of that. And to me, I hadn't told anybody about that.
00:18:40
Trevor Winsor
And, um, I remember sitting in that meeting room, holding the piece of paper, reading my story, and I just started shaking because it's like, I, I'm so nervous.
00:18:52
kenfreire
Oh yeah.
00:18:53
Trevor Winsor
I'm so afraid of rejection. And, um, yeah, I mean, the Lord met me in that
The Power of Vulnerability
00:18:58
Trevor Winsor
moment. I continued and, you know, told the story. I get to the end of my full disclosure and two of the guys, one of them turns to me, the other's across the table. They both lean in and they're like, me too, man. I have the same experience when I was a kid. And I've described it in different ways and some people have made fun of me for it, but I just, I feel like on a hot day, like what I felt in that moment is that cold water was just poured over my head and onto my shoulders. Like I just felt
00:19:26
Trevor Winsor
relief and ah ah the best way to describe it is I think the shame just started to drip off.
00:19:32
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:19:33
Trevor Winsor
And man, I can't tell you how integral that moment was into my own story because unless I was met with shared experience, understanding and grace, I never would have told another soul about that.
00:19:53
Trevor Winsor
But, and it's funny, I hadn't even written this in my notes, but years back, I was asked to speak on, there's a couple of different passages in scripture that talk about it, but the idea of like burying one another's burdens.
00:20:08
Trevor Winsor
And the Lord gave me this just phrase that I have to share in order for you to bear my burden.
00:20:16
kenfreire
Hmm, that's so good.
00:20:17
Trevor Winsor
It's just the share to bear, like, And the idea that in that moment with those guys, if I didn't share that one piece of my story, I wouldn't have had a healing journey because I would have been holding onto one pocket, one little sliver of my story. There was just too much shame. I couldn't trust anybody with it. But because, you know, I think through the Lord's leading, I was able to be, um, courageous in that moment. Uh, and reminder like courageous is doing the right thing, even when you're afraid. Courage is not void of fear. It's full of it. Um, I don't think that I would be where I'm at today.
00:20:53
Trevor Winsor
if I hadn't have stepped out encouraged to be vulnerable and then was met with grace and understanding. And I just think too, as I've continued in my own recovery journey,
00:21:05
Trevor Winsor
seeing that like listening to other people's vulnerability, their story, it brings so much clarity to my own. It's so much easier to see reality in someone else's story than your own.
00:21:15
Trevor Winsor
And so when someone's sharing, like, oh, you know, when this happens and my kid pops off of me and I get so upset, this is why I get so angry. And this is why I go there and she's like, oh dude, me too. Whoa. You know, there's this like self discovery that can happen when you're listening to someone else share it vulnerably.
00:21:25
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:21:30
Trevor Winsor
So, Yeah, for me, vulnerability, friends of mine, people close to me have said it's a superpower of mine. It's not a superpower, it's just a muscle that I've developed over time because I've seen the value that it has for me and I've seen the way it can create pockets and cultures where true healing and transformation can happen because it can't happen without vulnerability.
00:21:51
kenfreire
Yeah, 100% man. And you know, even when you were talking about like share to bear, right? And those people met with you. I'm also thinking about all those other guys that all of a sudden they opened up and they're like, that's the first time they got that cold water poured on them.
00:22:01
Trevor Winsor
Mm hmm. Yep.
00:22:04
kenfreire
And they're just like, someone understands.
00:22:05
Trevor Winsor
Totally.
00:22:06
kenfreire
And this is why I love doing the podcast is like, let's just get that stuff out there.
00:22:09
Trevor Winsor
Yep.
00:22:09
kenfreire
Like let's people need to know like it. It happens and it's sinful. It's wrong, right? Like the things that happen, right?
00:22:16
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:22:17
kenfreire
But like in it, there's so much grace. There's so much that God says, regardless of what happened, I'm going to be there to show you that I'm bigger than anything that's ever happened to you.
00:22:28
Trevor Winsor
but but Another thing too, this is I think important for people to hear. A couple weeks later, there was a guy who was in another one of the groups, who for his entire, mean was 50s, 60s, sort of older guy. No shame, 15, 60 doesn't make you old. It's just he's older than I was.
00:22:49
Trevor Winsor
He asked me to go out to lunch and because he had heard that I had had this experience and that I'd shared my story, he shared with me that he had struggled with same-sex attraction for almost his whole life and sexually acting out and you pornography and all of that. What I realized in that moment is because those guys in my group responded so openly and with understanding to me, like I had to do the same thing. And I've just realized how we respond to others. People vulnerability is so important because if we respond even with like a fraction of judgment or surprise or, um,
00:23:36
Trevor Winsor
just not compassion or curiosity, man, it shuts people down and they may never share again. And so I saw how my vulnerability you I was just doing what I thought was right. I wasn't trying to change anybody's life or the culture. I was just doing what I felt was my responsibility to being honest. And I saw that it opened up other conversations and other people's vulnerability. And so I would just say, and it's something I may say again you our time, it's just that vulnerability can unlock healing for other people.
00:24:04
kenfreire
Yeah, 100% man. I have found that in my life.
00:24:08
Trevor Winsor
Mm-hmm.
00:24:08
kenfreire
I mean, when I was in ministry quite regularly sharing my story of sexual abuse and healing, I cannot tell you how many guys would text me or email, like they wouldn't do it in front of the group, but like they would text me or email me like, I have the same story.
00:24:20
Trevor Winsor
Yep, right.
00:24:24
kenfreire
And they're like crying and like so many men who are like, I've never shared this with someone.
00:24:25
Trevor Winsor
Yep.
00:24:30
kenfreire
And I remember, this is a story that I've shared in the podcast, but I remember having a bad counselor who I shared my story with. And this actually almost me to commit suicide because I shared my story.
00:24:39
Trevor Winsor
Hmm.
00:24:42
kenfreire
And then he just totally was like, well, I think you guys were bored. was trying to justify everything.
00:24:49
Trevor Winsor
ye Yep.
00:24:49
kenfreire
And I had that same moment where you were like, I'm just sharing. I like, dude, I'm crying. I got snot everywhere. And it's just like miserable.
00:24:53
Trevor Winsor
-hmm. Yep.
00:24:55
kenfreire
Got the butterflies, all the whole nine. And I just remember thinking, I went to this one Christian counselor and I was met with kind of like rejection or dejection a little bit of just like, that's not what I needed.
00:25:05
Trevor Winsor
Mm-hmm. Right.
00:25:07
kenfreire
I'm like, if this guy can't help me, no one can help me. And I almost committed suicide. If it wasn't for God intervening,
00:25:13
Trevor Winsor
Mm.
00:25:15
kenfreire
a a I would have died that day, you know, and it was just a miracle that I'm here, you know, now 20, 30 plus years later from that situation.
00:25:22
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:25:24
kenfreire
But I remember then when I was vulnerable with the another counselor and he showed me like the grace and the mercy. Man, I remember this.
00:25:34
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:25:36
kenfreire
I remember when I shared my story, I was like, this guy's going to reject me like the old counselor did.
00:25:38
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:25:41
kenfreire
I look up and he's crying and he comes to me. He just, he just holds me.
00:25:44
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:25:45
kenfreire
And we had like a 45 minute cry session. I was like, oh, I'm like snotting all over his dress shirt. And I'm just like, but it was the first moment that I felt the relief of like, I think I could beat this.
00:25:56
Trevor Winsor
Yeah. I, am you know, one of the things, the fun fact of the beginning about writing, I have, have a book in me.
00:26:05
Trevor Winsor
about, and this is another, I'm claiming my spot on another episode of your podcast because this is something we need to talk about, is our discomfort with other people's pain and suffering causes us to try to find quick solutions.
00:26:12
kenfreire
Done.
00:26:23
Trevor Winsor
And oftentimes that looks like I'm just trying to solve your problem, but there's this ugly undercurrent of my discomfort is coming out. And so I think of that first counselor who, you know, if there's a way that I can just silver line this or I can wrap this into a pretty bow and just make sense of it super quick, then we can just move on. Then we don't have to sit here in this mess. When in reality, all you needed was that dude to sit next to you for 45 minutes and embrace you and cry with you and just be with you. And he didn't solve any problems, but he unlocked something new.
00:26:57
Trevor Winsor
just by doing that. And so I promise this book will be out in the world at some point, but I think that that topic needs to be addressed more is just that, you know, I think especially coming from religious and Christian circles, like we try to keep things so clean and tidy when nothing about life is clean and tidy.
00:27:17
Trevor Winsor
It is so messy and it is so... My wife, it's actually, it's in... It's in our bathroom. I don't know if you've read Dane Ortland's book, Gentle and Lovely.
00:27:28
kenfreire
Oh yeah, great book.
00:27:29
Trevor Winsor
And the book talks, Dane talks about how, you know, God doesn't check in and out of our brokenness like a hotel.
00:27:40
Trevor Winsor
He takes up permanent residence there. And something, I don't know if, I don't think my wife's doing a passive aggressive play or anything, but she just has the book, you know, sitting in a basket.
00:27:50
Trevor Winsor
And I've been thinking about that line. Dude, the last few days, like just that God's not afraid of how messy my life is. He wants, I mean, for crying out loud, like Jesus came down into the mess of humanity to show how much God wants to be present with us. And I think that that's so important. And we can't, we can't lose that. We can't lose the reality that life is messy and healing is messy. And if we want to help other people or be a part of that process, we're going to get it all over our hands. There's no way around it.
00:28:22
kenfreire
Yeah, 100%, man. And that's where I love how you said it. God's in it. He's in the mess, and he wants us to come to him to heal and find recovery.
00:28:31
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:28:34
kenfreire
But we tend to hold ourselves back. picture I always see is prodigal son, you where the father is just running to him.
00:28:36
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:28:41
kenfreire
But like so many of us, we see God the Father running towards us, but we think he's going to run towards us with a fist or a hammer. or He's going to whip us.
00:28:49
kenfreire
And he's like, no, no, I'm running to actually embrace you and support you and say, hey, I'm going to put a new robe on you.
00:28:49
Trevor Winsor
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.
00:28:55
kenfreire
I'm going to put a new necklace. I'm going to change you completely. Just let me come.
00:29:01
Trevor Winsor
Yeah, that's the perfect passage too.
00:29:03
Trevor Winsor
I think Tim Keller says, if scripture were a lake, that Luke 15 is the one area of the lake, it's so clear, you can see all the way to the bottom.
00:29:15
kenfreire
Hmm.
00:29:16
Trevor Winsor
And if you remember, prodigal son is rehearsing. He's like thinking about, okay, how am I gonna say this to my dad?
00:29:20
kenfreire
Oh yeah.
00:29:22
Trevor Winsor
How am I gonna, you know, like, and what's so great is the father's just like, shut up already, dude. Like, let me just, let me talk, you know? And it's just, it's so good, you know? And even in the season I'm in right now,
00:29:33
Trevor Winsor
I'm dealing with a lot of you shame and and struggle with a job loss in ah an unexpected transition. had a pastor of mine on Sunday, actually, this past week say to me that God doesn't need my gifts, he just wants me, the person.
00:29:49
Trevor Winsor
And I'm like, that sucks, dude. like like I'm like the prodigal son. I'm like, okay, I'm going to say this, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to earn that, and I'm going to get his favor, I'm going to do all this stuff.
00:29:57
Trevor Winsor
And man, it takes conversations or moments like that where the Lord's like, dude, I don't need any of that. I'm just glad you're home.
00:30:05
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:30:05
Trevor Winsor
Come back in, put the ring and the robe on you. Let's slay the calf. Let's just devour this food. Yeah, let's not get too far off topic, because Luke 15, we could just spend the rest of the time, dude.
00:30:16
kenfreire
I know we're like, I'm like, we're, uh, we're going, uh, okay.
00:30:18
Trevor Winsor
Yeah, yeah, it's good.
00:30:20
kenfreire
So let's get back on track a little bit, but that was good. That was, that was a good tangent. Hopefully that would be blessing, uh, people there. But, um, you know, let's go back to something that you said earlier where our, our accountability groups or or groups, we want to be vulnerable, but what would you say to someone who is afraid to share the struggles out of fear
00:30:26
Trevor Winsor
Mm-hmm.
Overcoming Shame through Relationships
00:30:39
kenfreire
of judgment or rejection?
00:30:40
Trevor Winsor
Mm-hmm.
00:30:42
Trevor Winsor
Yeah, I mean, here's the reality. That is a learned reaction. and this is just super unfortunate, that we, in moments of vulnerability, we share and we get people who shame us, shame on you, how dare you, how could you do something like that?
00:31:02
Trevor Winsor
And, you know, dude, I'll just say this, my life is so different as a dad, like being a parent, you find yourself saying things like that with the right intentions,
00:31:13
kenfreire
Oh, all the time.
00:31:13
Trevor Winsor
But man, it is so lacking the tactfulness you need as this, you know, preparer of this heart, the shepherd of this small human being.
00:31:26
Trevor Winsor
And so I think that that's where the fear comes from is, you know, whether it's, you know, a mentor or a spiritual leader or a parent who like, you know, I'm disappointed in you or you should be ashamed of yourself or whatever. We learn that. The great irony is, though, is that shame can only be broken in relationship with other people.
00:31:52
kenfreire
Hmm.
00:31:53
Trevor Winsor
Shame breeds secrecy, and secrecy means we run away from relationship. And that just breeds more shame. But the challenge with it is that without being open and honest with someone else, you can't hear what I did in that first group. Me too. Thank you, man, for sharing so much. Man, I've had the same experience, or I had never thought of it that way before. That's so good. Thank you for being honest.
00:32:22
Trevor Winsor
We can never hear those if we're not willing to overcome that fear. and and Maybe that's not a right way to say it. I wouldn't even say overcome the fear. It's in spite of it, you still decide to do the thing, the right thing. If you come from a Christian background listener like I do, I would have this thought often of, I know God accepts me, but I'm worried about his people.
00:32:51
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:32:51
Trevor Winsor
Like, I know like vertically that word, you know, I've got some struggles, but like Jesus came, died on the cross for me, rose from the grave. You know, Romans 10.9, I confess with my mouth and I believe that he's Lord.
00:33:03
Trevor Winsor
I'm good.
00:33:04
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:33:04
Trevor Winsor
But I'm afraid of his people. And we often miss this reality. And I think we miss this on both sides, both as the person who's being vulnerable, but then also the person who's receiving someone else's vulnerability.
00:33:18
Trevor Winsor
is that the way that we receive God's love vertically is done in a horizontal plane in relationship with other people. And so without being vulnerable, without sharing, you can't have someone bear that burden or accept and acknowledge and come alongside you.
00:33:37
Trevor Winsor
Um, I don't know about anybody else, you know, who might be listening, but like, I don't ever feel like God's just grabbed the joystick and put me on autopilot and like did stuff for me. Like he's in and through it and so powerful and capable, but. Like I have agency here. I have some responsibility. I've got some skin in the game. And so I think that we have to remember that the way God designed His love to be experienced on like like a tactile way is in relationship with His people. And so yes, have we been hurt by other people? 100%. But I do believe that because of God's love and acceptance and forgiveness of us, we can have the courage to continue to be vulnerable with God's people. And that's where we experience all of it. Yeah. i
00:34:27
Trevor Winsor
It's hard because there's not like a, at least in my mind, there's not a silver bullet of just do one, two, three, and then there you go. Now you can be vulnerable forever. It is, it's never, I would say this, I mentioned it earlier.
00:34:39
Trevor Winsor
People look at me and think vulnerability is a superpower. And like I said, it's a muscle. If you don't work out a muscle, even if it's really big, it's going to get flabby. It's going to get weak over time.
00:34:49
Trevor Winsor
You have to keep working it. And yeah, I think, you know, no question.
00:34:52
kenfreire
And in different areas of your life. I've gotten so used to being vulnerable about my sexual past that it's like, okay, cool, that's easy.
00:35:02
kenfreire
It's like habit now. But now let me go be vulnerable of a failure at work or let me go be vulnerable to my wife that I messed up on how I parented my kids.
00:35:07
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:35:10
kenfreire
That's different. like got to grow that muscle all the time.
00:35:12
Trevor Winsor
Yeah. Right. And I think too, just to kind of go back to what I said toward the beginning, if you're on the other side where you're receiving someone's vulnerability, again, it makes our response so important. Like this is, it's as if God is serving up on a plate for you. Here's an opportunity to be like me and to extend my love and acceptance to someone.
00:35:36
Trevor Winsor
When someone's open and honest about some of the biggest stuff that they've you struggled with or fears that they have or whatever, man, if their vulnerability gets shut down, that's where shame is just like, all right, game time, I'm in it, here we go.
00:35:50
Trevor Winsor
And it just takes control.
00:35:51
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:35:52
Trevor Winsor
And so I think if you want to I don't know if looking at shame like a whack-a-mole game makes sense, but if shame, which this is good, I'm gonna run with this. If shame is the whack-a-mole game, then the club that you're holding in your hand is vulnerability. It's what keeps it away. It's what gets it out. It's what allows you to to to heal and move forward and succeed in life, truly.
00:36:20
kenfreire
Yeah, you know, I'm thinking that is a great analogy, by the way. I like it. I liked it.
00:36:25
Trevor Winsor
Thank you. If not, you can totally cut it. We can just move on.
00:36:29
kenfreire
I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm catching it. Well, but maybe it's just you and I are like-minded that we're like, yeah, that's awesome, you know.
00:36:36
Trevor Winsor
Yeah. Yeah. If you don't like that analogy, then, you know, post a review, tell Kenny's doing a terrible job and let's, you know, move on.
00:36:43
kenfreire
could email me at Trevor.
00:36:47
Trevor Winsor
There you go.
00:36:49
kenfreire
But you know, I love how you said it, like people can't see the expression of God's love without the people of God, right?
00:36:49
Trevor Winsor
It's good.
00:36:56
kenfreire
And I thought about 1 John 4.12 where it says, no one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, this is my favorite part about this passage. When I saw this, it like opened my eyes. God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
00:37:11
Trevor Winsor
Yes, exactly right.
00:37:11
kenfreire
Another translation says his love is complete in us. And it's like, if you want to see the full expression, the full completeness of God's love, You have to be vulnerable, like you have to go do that.
00:37:18
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:37:21
kenfreire
Um, okay.
00:37:21
Trevor Winsor
Yep.
00:37:22
kenfreire
So for people, right?
00:37:23
Trevor Winsor
Yep.
00:37:23
kenfreire
Let's, let's get practical for some of them of like, Oh my gosh, I need practical steps to embrace vulnerability.
00:37:26
Trevor Winsor
Yep.
00:37:30
kenfreire
I get it. I need to be vulnerable. That's the secret to finding victory and freedom.
00:37:32
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:37:36
kenfreire
What would be some tips that you would give people when it comes to opening up?
00:37:42
Trevor Winsor
Yeah, I think the first thing that came to mind was start small, um, to not just be like, okay, bro, sit down. I've got a lot for you. And then just vomit, you know, like 30 years of struggle and challenge and whatever. Like, you know, maybe it's, um, starting small is like,
00:38:02
Trevor Winsor
You start to share a little bit on where you're leaning on this political cycle, who I'm going to vote for. Maybe that's a huge trigger, but something like that or like a fear you've been experiencing or a doubt that you have or a challenge you're facing in parenting or in relationships or marriage, like something small.
00:38:20
Trevor Winsor
Don't bring out the bazooka and then blow the person away with just the whole chamber. Ease into it. I think with that though, finding one, two, maybe like a max of three people that are trusted, that you love, that you you have good relationship with and feel safe to you and invite them into that. Ask them if they'd be willing to be people who you can share openly and honestly with.
00:38:46
Trevor Winsor
You know, there's this idea floating around I've heard ah Matt Chandler who's the pastor at the Village Church in Texas Talking about something called the King's Table and it's finding people who you do life with who you see multiple times a week who you meet on a regular basis and are sharing about your life and everyone has the ability and the permission to just blow you up if you're messing it like If you say something about your wife and it's off, then one of those people will just be like, dude, that's not cool.
00:39:21
Trevor Winsor
Back it up. like Let's talk about that for a minute.
00:39:23
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:39:24
Trevor Winsor
It's basically like opening your vest and inviting people in to see what's going on. so think start small, pick a few people. And then, honestly, it seems so silly, but I've seen so much power in this. It's just asking permission, can I share something vulnerably with you? And I'll tell you why that has been meaningful and powerful in my experience. If I just am sitting down, can you and I or new friends
00:39:53
Trevor Winsor
If we go, um, and are having coffee, which we never would cause we live too far away. But if we were grabbing coffee and I was just like, can I have an affair? You know, and I just throw it on the table and it is just this big, messy, smelly thing that you weren't prepared for. I can't expect you to respond super well. It doesn't matter how trained you are. does matter how many conversations like that you've had. It puts you on a backpedal.
00:40:20
Trevor Winsor
But if we sit down, we get our coffee, uh, or let's be honest, if we get our cocktails, cause that's probably where this conversation would be happening and mine will be in old fashioned with, uh, wild Turkey, one-on-one anyways, we're sitting down and I say, can, can I share something vulnerable with you? Can I be honest with you about something? What that does is it sets kind of an emotional stage for you where that kind of almost diffuses any bomb before it could go off or like sets you in a posture of like, okay, this could be big.
00:40:52
Trevor Winsor
All right, get ready. Okay, I can respond well, I can do this.
00:40:54
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:40:57
Trevor Winsor
And here's what's great, is if the person you're with says, no, actually, I don't want you to, then great, they don't need to be a safe person that you spend time with. But if they say, yeah, man, absolutely, go for it and you share it,
00:41:09
Trevor Winsor
I've just seen a lot of fruit come from that, that it allows the person to mentally prepare and get into that headspace. It shows that it's important and serious to you. I think, obviously, is as you're being vulnerable, that just creates more ability for both of you to have that kind of relationship. So I think that that's really, really important.
00:41:30
Trevor Winsor
The last thing I'd say, and I've said this already a couple of times, but the only way to get comfortable or better at vulnerability is to be vulnerable. I've talked about you being a muscle. I started doing CrossFit six months ago, and if I want to get fit and if I want to lose weight and I want to build muscle, I have to consistently do the workouts. And do they hurt? Yeah.
00:41:56
Trevor Winsor
Like at the end, are they great? Totally. But if I were to stop today and not work out for the next six months, I can't expect that I would get stronger over the next six months. I would get weaker over the next six months. And the same thing is true with vulnerability. The only way to keep getting better and to keep getting more and more comfortable doing it is to keep doing it. You build that muscle up and you have to maintain it.
00:42:19
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:42:20
Trevor Winsor
And I think one of the cool benefits, I'll end with this, the cool benefits about vulnerability is the more vulnerable you are. the more vulnerability it breeds around you. You'll see, I promise you, the more vulnerable you are, you will see people around you start to open up and share stuff. I was telling a mentor of mine just yesterday, one of the things I hear more often from people than I can even count is, I can't believe I just told you that.
00:42:50
kenfreire
ah
00:42:50
Trevor Winsor
I hear that all the time. It's not because I've got this you shovel and I'm just digging for gold. like like I am just a vulnerable person that tends to share openly about my experience.
00:43:03
Trevor Winsor
I'm not really afraid anymore ah ah of judgment. Now, it depends on who it is, but I can be pretty open and honest with people. That openness, that honesty tends to get people in that same space, whether they intended to or not.
00:43:11
kenfreire
Oh, yeah.
00:43:18
Trevor Winsor
Now, again, if someone says, like can't believe I just told you that, please don't tell anyone, protect confidentiality, that's super important. But at the same time, you will see people start to share openly because you doing it gives them permission to do it. And you responding well when they're vulnerable back to you, it grows like weeds. It just cannot stop once it's there.
00:43:40
kenfreire
Yeah, I love that man. you're totally right. Like I think about all the people that are around me. They just start sharing stuff. But that's because I've opened it up of like, here, here's where I'm at.
00:43:51
kenfreire
Here's what I'm struggling with.
00:43:52
Trevor Winsor
Yep, yep, yep.
00:43:53
kenfreire
From little things to big things.
00:43:53
Trevor Winsor
You're characterized by it.
00:43:55
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:43:55
Trevor Winsor
Yep.
00:43:56
kenfreire
But then I love how you said that. You're also a safe person because you if it's confidential, you're keeping it to the grave. No one knows the other person's secret.
00:44:02
Trevor Winsor
Totally. Yep.
00:44:04
kenfreire
You're a great sounding board for that person.
00:44:06
Trevor Winsor
Yep.
00:44:06
kenfreire
love it, man. Trevor, as we wrap up, you've been given a lot of great thoughts here. And we've been talking about lot about vulnerability within accountability, an accountability group being in person.
00:44:17
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:44:17
kenfreire
There are certain times that vulnerability isn't enough.
00:44:22
kenfreire
So let's just quickly run through
00:44:23
Trevor Winsor
Yeah.
00:44:23
kenfreire
Before the show, we talked about vulnerability versus therapy. And are times that we do need to address going to
00:44:30
kenfreire
Just talking to your friends may not be the best time.
00:44:30
Trevor Winsor
Yeah. Yeah.
Balancing Therapy and Community Support
00:44:33
kenfreire
What advice would you give for someone who just is like, I feel stuck but despite seeing a therapist, you know that they need it but they also need vulnerability.
00:44:47
Trevor Winsor
Yeah. I mean, my first thought was like, well, if you have a therapist, ask them their opinion. They're a great resource for that. Just like, hey, therapist, what should I do? But I mean, even as I was reading the question, man, like I think that if you're seeing a therapist and you feel stuck to me, that says you are not being honest in these different areas of your life, that you're not practicing vulnerability. The way I've thought about this is like,
00:45:13
Trevor Winsor
You pay a therapist to be this third party for your insurance, Lord willing, pays this therapist to listen to you, to help you. They come alongside like like zero judgment for you. It's because they're not invested in your life other than as your therapist, where your friends, your spouse, your family, they are. There's fear that, well, I can't pay these people to not you respond negatively. But I think that that's, again, here's my experience.
00:45:42
Trevor Winsor
When I am not being honest and vulnerable in my community with my friends, with my spouse, with my family, to me that makes me feel like I'm walking on eggshells and makes me uncomfortable and makes me nervous and honestly makes me not fun at all to be around.
00:46:00
Trevor Winsor
And that discomfort, what's funny is it feels like that discomfort is actually fear of being vulnerable and it's not. It's the discomfort of not being vulnerable.
00:46:12
kenfreire
Yeah.
00:46:12
Trevor Winsor
It's the fear of like, what do I have to say here to keep the secret of the facade up? Or like it's this inner like dissonance you're feeling between reality and what other people know.
00:46:24
Trevor Winsor
And the only way to break free of that is to let people in and show them what's up. You have to.
00:46:30
Trevor Winsor
so yeah, if that's where you're at, if you have a therapist, you've been doing the work, you can't seem to break free. My question is, who are you not telling or being honest with that you should be? because I think once honesty and vulnerability happens, it feels like a weighted vest comes off and you walk around lighter. It doesn't mean there aren't consequences to that vulnerability or difficulty or facing difficulty or challenge when you're 100 pounds lighter is a whole lot easier than continuing to dig yourself deeper and deeper, putting more and more shame on yourself and hoping to God you don't get caught. That's a miserable existence.
00:47:09
kenfreire
Yeah, and I've had those situations where I'm like, I'm gonna be vulnerable and it's gonna be good, but it's also gonna be really hard because now there's consequences to what I just shared, right?
00:47:18
Trevor Winsor
100%. Yep.
00:47:22
kenfreire
But what I have found is that God's grace has been there for me and I've came out a better person, more lighter, more freer, more full of joy.
00:47:31
Trevor Winsor
Mm-hmm.
00:47:32
kenfreire
It just changes the dynamic because we're not hiding things.
00:47:35
Trevor Winsor
Yep.
00:47:35
kenfreire
Every time I've counseled guys, one question I ask is like, you just shared this story. Is there anything else that you're afraid to share that now's the moment that you'd want to?
00:47:48
kenfreire
know Because what can happen right that share part of your story and you're like, oh, I feel a little bit of freedom. But there's always this little thing. And time and time again, a sliver of shame.
00:47:48
Trevor Winsor
ye Yep.
00:47:56
Trevor Winsor
like a sliver of shame. Yep.
00:47:58
kenfreire
And that's where the devil comes in. And I've told guys, like don't let that sliver come in. This is a perfect moment.
00:48:03
kenfreire
You've opened up one step. Let's take another step. Let's take another step. Let's keep going. Because you'll see, when you get that whole thing out, the enemy doesn't have power.
00:48:08
Trevor Winsor
yep nope it's the whole idea of the foothold the foothold is gone yep
00:48:13
kenfreire
It's gone. And then you're like, yeah. And then you could go, Trevor, man, we both know we could keep talking and keep going on this topic.
00:48:24
kenfreire
But any final thoughts for those guys who are truly struggling and they're like, dude, I'm with you. I know I need this. Help. Any any last kind of final thoughts?
00:48:34
Trevor Winsor
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, I think picking, you know, one, maybe two people that, you know, are safe or that you feel secure with, I think are, that's like the first thing to do. And maybe one of those people is your therapist. That's great, dude. Like,
00:48:52
Trevor Winsor
It's better than just continuing to drive the car when you know it's a mess. that Just take it into a mechanic. A therapist is a mechanic for your soul. Just take them in. So I really do think, practically, just find one to two people that you can be honest with, that you can share, and you start practicing. That's the way you get better.
00:49:10
Trevor Winsor
And what's cool is the more you practice a vulnerability, the better you are at dismissing shame when it pops its head up. And, you know, go back to it, like, you know, use the hammer of vulnerability to like keep shame down. And I can't speak more highly of communities that are characterized by vulnerability and openness. Those are the healthiest ones.
00:49:38
Trevor Winsor
And if you want to be a healthy person and you want to be in a healthy culture or create a healthy culture, then it starts with being open and honest and vulnerable and doing it in a safe community.
The Church's Role in Change
00:49:49
Trevor Winsor
And honestly, dude, that's how I think the church is going to change the world.
00:49:52
Trevor Winsor
I think the church doesn't change the world just by pontificating about biblical truth. I think, as you said earlier from John, that when we're embodying what it looks like to be like Jesus, to sit in the mess and the muck and to say, thanks for sharing. We're so sorry. How can we help you in this season? That's how we change the world.
00:50:10
kenfreire
I love it, man. Trevor, for those of you people who were like, Trevor's awesome. He's way smarter than Ken, which is partly true.
00:50:21
kenfreire
Yeah, they're like half and half, depending on the day.
00:50:23
Trevor Winsor
Sure.
00:50:25
kenfreire
But if they're like, man, I really enjoy Trevor.
00:50:27
kenfreire
I really enjoy his insights. What's the best way to follow you?
00:50:31
Trevor Winsor
Dude, for real, I'm not on any of the socials. LinkedIn's the only place I am. Just Trevor Windsor. you can put that in your show notes if you want. Yeah, social media is not the place for me. I like being off of that stuff. But yeah, I mean, for ah a long time was a part of Pure Desire Ministry and was the host of that podcast. And I would just say if you you want more stuff on recovery, sexual addiction, that kind of stuff, even the other side of portrayal trauma, just go check out the Pure Desire podcast, hook up with them. But yeah, man, they don't need connection with me. You want to put my email on the show notes, they can. They can reach out.
00:51:05
Trevor Winsor
Yeah, I'm just a dude who's trying to do the right thing day to day and help I change the culture around me.
00:51:10
kenfreire
Awesome. Trevor, thank you so much. And for those of you who are listening, I want you to just take one thing that Trevor said. He's given a lot of great nuggets. But take one thing and say, you know what? I'm going to take a step forward, find that one person that you know that I could just share a baby step with. With that, I want you guys to keep doing what I say every single time at the end of the episode. Kill shame, stand strong, and be on mission. Hope you guys have a great day, and God bless.