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We watch "Heroes and Demons" (S1 Ep.12)
42 Plays2 years ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Heroes and Demons" in which Voyager encounters a protostar and attempts to collect samples for energy. Ensign Kim goes missing within a holodeck program based on Beowulf. The Doctor is the only person who can execute the rescue mission, but it’s a much more profound experience than he bargained for.
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Transcript
Forgetting How to Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Every time we have a gap between recordings, I forget how to do this. Welcome back to our now people who've contributed towards 56 Lessons.
Discussing 'Heroes and Demons'
00:00:12
Speaker
Just to say this episode we're covering Voyager Heroes and Demons, which is season one episode
00:00:21
Speaker
12, I think. Just to bring your on the same page. Jamie, what do you want to say? No, I was just going to say my suspicion that we had one listener and one listener only who'd listened to us 56 times, which would mean we had our first official stalker. But that was clearly not it. That one's bomb, isn't it? Has anyone told my mum about this? Because that would explain everything.
Voyager Episode Number Debate
00:00:45
Speaker
Some leap from none to 56 listens.
00:00:48
Speaker
But no, I also wanted to correct you on a point of order that it is in fact episode 11, which I don't expect from you two who are clearly the experts on this. I've got iTunes open and I'm also leading the challenge to make our listeners hate me as much as possible by mentioning that in that tone of voice. There is some discrepancy in numbering. So I don't use like the Netflix, because they can't episode one and two as one. But yes, that might help explain people why I use the numbering I do.
Podcast Parody Speculation
00:01:19
Speaker
Before we dive into your one line summary, Jamie, I just have to share something that I heard on a podcast that I was listening to before we started, which there's this very funny wild podcast I like called Hollywood in the vine. And he deals with comedy. But for this episode, he decided to kind of like spoof the worst
00:01:38
Speaker
podcast ever. Cause he was like, I listened to a lot of podcasts and frankly, one of them are terrible. There's no planning, no directing, no editing. He's talking about a podcast. How did he hear about us? Exactly. That was my major question. So I was like, Oh, I don't know if I want to listen to his like spoof podcast that he was doing, like improvising with another co-host. Um, but actually it was hilarious. And I only thought scene for the first like minute
'Ghost Dog' Film Discovery
00:02:07
Speaker
or two,
00:02:08
Speaker
And then I think it did delve into being a very bad podcast because, and I don't think
00:02:14
Speaker
uh we are as bad as we have glum the depths is that what you're trying to say right it was basically like a re-wanted podcast where the two hosts forgot to like analyze the episode because they were discussing their sex lives and their problems that's an amazing podcast and on that note can i just say i have discovered what literally the minute before this podcast something absolutely incredible watching now as a premise does anything sound
00:02:41
Speaker
Ghetto Assassin wages war on Italian Mafia based on teachings of ancient samurai on which said Ghetto Ninja bases his entire life. Because that's what I've just discovered. It's a movie called Ghost Dog. No, it's called Ghost Dog. It came out in 1999. I'm absolutely fascinated to see what this is about.
00:03:08
Speaker
It sounds like there's a lot going on there, but I think you can enjoy it. I know, right? I'm going to live vicariously through like my 14 year old selves eyes. Um, but I, I did say that I would mention this sort of immensely geeky thing that I discovered just, uh, before the start of the podcast. And I have ghost dog.
00:03:28
Speaker
Goose dog. Oh, that does ring a bell. Please tell me you've watched it. Please tell me you've watched it. No, no, no, I cannot. That was a long time ago. Can we have some homework for this one? We will watch it and sort of analyze
Voyager Episode Summary
00:03:40
Speaker
it. I don't know. In the style of, I don't know, a postmodernist essay or something like this. I mean, I am tempted to watch it, but I can't commit to anything. I'm sticking to Voyager. Yeah, yeah. Fine. Let's just stick to Voyager.
00:03:58
Speaker
Speaking of which, Jamie, do you have your non-one minute summary for us? I have my one phrase summary and it is this. Dr. Bam Shaka Bear Wow.
00:04:12
Speaker
Is that it? That was it. And it was a good one. And you know it was. I know you were going to go into some, um, what's that tune from the nineties? It's like this reggae. No, no, it's like, no, no, no, no, no, it's in a boom shaka laka. Boom, shak, shak, shak, the room. No. Boom, shaka laka. Oh no, no, I was going. I'm not going to sing it. Okay. But the line, the line that everyone remembers is the way he says, wane your body.
00:04:47
Speaker
No, I'm ripping off the advert that would go, whenever anyone did anything to, you know, pretend like they were, I don't know, cool, sexy, other. And in this case, it's the doctor and Beowulf all sort of punted in together in a way that only makes it funnier, as you explain it, as all humour does. I was going to say, for anyone who
00:05:09
Speaker
needs a bit more to add Jenny or Jamie.
00:05:17
Speaker
Well, I've never done an intro. I've killed it. I've killed it. I've never done an intro before. I could attempt it. Intuitively absurd. Accidentally really wordy, but I'll try and keep it succinct. So they discover photonic energy. Well, they think it's just energy at first. And then they lose several of the crew members who seem to disappear in the middle of the holodeck. And the doctor
00:05:47
Speaker
The hero of the episode goes on a way mission in the holodeck, which just happens to be Beowulf in the holodeck. And he slays what they later discover is, well, he doesn't slay it. In fact, he communicates with what they later discover as a photonic being, communicates with it and manages to get the crew members back and is a huge success.
Neelix Absence Discussion
00:06:14
Speaker
Brilliant! Yes, Jamie, what would you like to add? I would like to add an addendum that surprisingly Neelix does not make any situation in this episode worse through his intervention in a way that's just stupid and violating Starfleet and HR regulations. But only because he doesn't appear in this episode. Continue my one-man anti-Neelix crusade.
00:06:39
Speaker
One of the most loved characters and actors of that show. I find myself liking him more the more that I slay him. I feel like a kinship with him as this, you know, bumbling, lovable, jack of all trades. I knew it was going to happen. I knew it was going to happen. Oh, no. Great. So I think, yeah, let's let's dive in. So, yeah, I think we start with like the captain's log, as usual.
00:07:07
Speaker
I made note of the date, as we discussed. And I said, Janie, Janie, Janie. Like Brangelina, except with the J. Brangelina and Janie. They've altered course because they, to investigate the unusually intense photonic activity in a heavy protostar, and they plan to beam some sample supports. The first kind of scene we see is in engineering with Milana.
00:07:31
Speaker
And Jamie being total engineering nerds, I think, getting very excited about their experiments and they plan to beam this energy aboard. But there are a couple of issues. Yeah, I think actually in the scene, so they attempt to beam the energy on board into these two canisters.
00:07:51
Speaker
In what seems to me like the only ever time I've seen Starfleet technology malfunction when it's been used in a controlled environment in Star Trek Voyager, only one of them is filled.
00:08:06
Speaker
is very, very, they don't react as though anything is surprising there when they've got literally space age technology there as they attempt to beam this material out of the protostar on which they detect this photonic activity. They do appear to have a little bit of
00:08:26
Speaker
weird sort of bromance moment over both trying to overestimate how much they can improve the efficiency of the power converter as well.
00:08:39
Speaker
Yeah, Torres raising the skippers 15% up to 20%. And, you know, I just think that's a punchy move on Torres's part. Given what one episode ago, she took the captain to task when the captain suggested something could be done faster. So, you know, setting herself up to deliver the hand is raised. Let's hear
Work-Life Balance on Voyager
00:09:00
Speaker
it. I also noticed that because it was like quite a change from like, don't tell me how fast I could go to actually
00:09:09
Speaker
I'm a bit surprised in this scene by when it does malfunction. She says, oh, I can fix it. She immediately fixes it. And then and then they just move on. And I think
00:09:22
Speaker
concerned that they beamed something aboard and they lost containment. If that was organic, then you'd immediately be thinking, oh, good God, we've beamed the next door in the virus. Quick, isolate this room, isolate this section of the ship. Is that because it's photonic energy? And so they've not worried about escaping the containment field. Also, on the Star Trek fleet, what percentage of the crew do you reckon would be anti-vaxxers?
00:09:50
Speaker
We are not discussing vaccine. Two political. Two political. In fact, that was one of the elements they spoofed in that worst podcast ever. So they discussed religion, politics. They discussed the vaccine. Let's not do it. Are you sure I have watched this podcast, Red? I'm not just throwing an awesome list. I feel like maybe you gave them notes. Easter eggs. Ouch. Burn.
00:10:18
Speaker
No, as a creative consultant. That's not how it came across. It was just like a burn. That was an amazing burn. Like, wow. I feel like you gave them this. I'm really, I'm really proud of Red. Oh, dear. Jamie is quite keen to speed up this testing once another day with these two casters. So she's kind of cool in Harry, even though he's not on duty. How do we feel about this?
Searching for Harry Kim
00:10:48
Speaker
Wow, work-life boundaries respect the work-life balance and you know, what else is he doing if not working on his work-life balance given what he was doing? Which we find out was taking some downtime on the holodeck in what appears to be quote unquote a swords and sandal environment.
00:11:12
Speaker
Yeah, I guess, I mean, if they weren't looking for Harry and trying to get him back to work, they wouldn't pick up that he had disappeared off the ship and was last seen on the holiday. But yeah, I thought they both seemed so pleased with the discovery that they just seemed to assume that anyone would be happy to work on it. Maybe that's okay. It's true, but they try and find Carrie.
00:11:35
Speaker
I was going to say, imagine being in the work environment where your boss feels it's okay to contact you in your out of office hours, but also you happen to live with your boss on a ship in the middle of space where there is no escape.
00:11:50
Speaker
10,000. Yeah, I mean, you know, I love Janeway and I've learned a lot in terms of leadership from her, but this is not a lesson I think I will take forward. Also, there was no real urgency, you know, like, it's not like they needed to solve that power. I mean, they're just gonna get more efficiency. It's not like it's a...
00:12:09
Speaker
Maybe they're just such good friends. Or maybe there's some weird Lean Six Sigma efficiency cult that never gets referenced overtly throughout. And the entire backstory to Star Trek is they're just members of this cult and they never ever mention it.
00:12:29
Speaker
There's actually managers of like a management consulting board. Yeah, but no, we should get back to it and they find that they can't find Kim and then Tuvok as they scan says that there's no way he got off the venture the vessel conventionally either by being beamed or by taking a ship.
00:12:54
Speaker
And they realized the last place he was spotted was the Holodeck interface. At which point, Janeway just exchanges a significant look with Chakotay and says, commander, and off he goes without any more instructions needed. Because they scan the Holodeck and it's still no sign of Harry. So yeah, I guess, um, yeah, that's there. That's there. That's a good moment for the JC shippers, as they call them.
00:13:19
Speaker
The telepathic communication between Janeway Etracuti. I thought it was this Lean Six Sigma in... Is that what happens when you introduce Lean Six Sigma? Yeah, telepathic communication, you can't think because people know what you're thinking as you slate your colleagues and, you know, if people have to say things like each other's name and instantly know what to go off and do. No, they just pretend like it's that and avoid each other weird martial arts belts based on it.
00:13:49
Speaker
But anyway. The next scene, we're outside the holodeck. Do you want to tell us what's happening? Yeah, they attempt to enter the holodeck and they find out that the program won't switch on or off. They enter and find that it's a forest. And then we hit the intro. And as read, you're normally the one who introduces the intro and asks what others think of it. What did you think of this one? Did you mean?
00:14:19
Speaker
The credits music, everything. You know what? I always sit through the credits because I really think the Voyager theme is the best. I can say that. Um, so yeah, but I was probably friends with you taking notes this time or finishing when I was before music on. Is that what you meant, Jamie?
00:14:40
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. Normally you sort of have a little bit more on it, but I don't know. Literally because of the fact that you normally have a bit more on it. I sort of actually did sit through the opening notes as you do, but I have nothing to offer at this stage. Well, did you enjoy them? Do you find them... I think the music is just so good, I think. That's the right tone.
00:15:08
Speaker
So they in, so I think we come back and they still know how to dig in that kind of, I think quite a scenic atmospheric forest environment. And Shikote asked the computer to identify the program. And it turns out it's
Beowulf on the Holodeck
00:15:20
Speaker
a hard novel based on Beowulf. Beowulf. Wanna tell our listeners, Janie, do you wanna tell our listeners what Beowulf is? No, I just have to, I have to ask the question first. Has anyone read Beowulf on this podcast? My sister, I bet my sister has, cause she did old English on- Relatives do not count.
00:15:42
Speaker
I have not read it in original Norse or anything like that, but I have read it as a story.
00:15:52
Speaker
Yeah, because this is what I was wondering. No, I haven't read it as the original English epic poem in the tradition of Germanic heroic legend, which has 3182 literate of lines. Can you tell what I suddenly picked it up on Wiki as we speak? It is on quite a few English reading lists. So I thought maybe there was a chance someone heard that. It was not on our reading list in South Africa, but I discovered when I came to the UK. And I have good podcasts about it. Jane, you read it after this.
00:16:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I was a bit confused by it. So like J.R. Tolkien was inspired by it. But I was always a little bit confused by the fact it was described as an old English poem, given that the story is set in Scandinavia, where
00:16:45
Speaker
king of the Danes is under attack. Now I could absolutely imagine it being part of the oral tradition being carried across as various never-ending waves of Saxons, Vikings, Engels, Jutes and others came and sort of plundered, invaded and what otherwise mean to the Welsh as they sort of crossed the ocean. But
00:17:08
Speaker
Does that make it Old English? I know that Old English originates from a level of Saxon and Viking languages, but oh, that's so cute when you do it with both hands. It makes you look like a rabbit. Go for it, go for it.
00:17:21
Speaker
I'm going to give an answer to that question, which I don't know with 100% certainty, but this is what I had understood on Old English to mean. It's not where somewhere's set. It's not where somewhere's set. It's a period in English literature and it's the style that's written in as well. So I think that's what it refers to by Old English. Do we know who wrote Beowulf? Or do we just know it was written in England back in the day?
00:17:49
Speaker
Well, they give us a couple of clues for those of us who haven't read it. So it's based on the 6th century Denmark hero who is a monster in the kingdom and he's a hero by slaying or trying to slay this monster and is, as you said, set in Denmark, I believe.
00:18:12
Speaker
I guess, yeah, there's a, I guess that point, there's a clue about, you know, what's the environment in which they're going to be operating in. Exactly. But then I guess they've discovered a couple of concerning things. So, um, uh, they, uh, first of all, sorry, I'm kind of getting ahead of myself. Um, Tuvok still can't detect any life signs in the holiday, uh, because it's too much interference. There's still like no sign of Harry.
00:18:37
Speaker
But then suddenly this spear comes whizzing across the screen, Jamie. Fika's friend or stand as foe is the first thing they hear as that spear whizzes across their face. Very good impersonation or impression. Thank you. And I think the first thing Tuvok tries to do is delete that character. Okay, so it's just deadpan to the most dramatic moment and in-character introduction of a character Starfleet holodeck. Delete character.
00:19:07
Speaker
which is hilarious. It is very funny. But then it also raises like, at this point, the stakes are raised because they realize they can't delete characters and the safety might be off. So if they do get embroiled in a battle or someone tries to harm them, they are actually in real danger. Not just like a simulation on the holodeck. So they have that kind of moment and kind of just ignore this character. He introduces himself, Jamie, any more impersonations?
00:19:37
Speaker
No, I just like the fact she immediately says that you're not men of the Danes. I can tell from your faces. But yeah, and then asks if they introduce themselves as kinsmen of
00:19:54
Speaker
Beowulf, because Chakotay rightly guesses that Harry has been playing as Beowulf, as opposed to doing what you or I or Jenny would do if we were in this whole novel of playing the part of Grendel. I wouldn't even be playing this game, I think. But yeah, she also introduces herself. So she is Freya, she's the shield maiden, so she's like actually a god at this godpost, and they come across this godpost. And as you say,
00:20:23
Speaker
Based on the conversation with her, they kind of chocote twigs that Harry has been at this game playing the character of Beowulf. And she has seen him. Freya has seen him. She has a very good description. Yeah, Jamie.
00:20:40
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if it's a good description, but you'd be happy with it. She described him as having the burning gaze of a hero. And it's right you should avenge his death, being the encouraging things they immediately hear from her about this whole situation.
00:20:57
Speaker
And there's a great comment from Tuvok in response. I can't remember the exact line, but something about, you know, if we, if we just ignore all the extraneous nonsense, it sounds like a description of Harry. Amazing. Very Tuvok. But yeah, she drops this line, it's only right you avenge his death. So I don't think Harry and Tuvok
00:21:23
Speaker
I don't think Shikote and T-Bok panic at this stage because it's a horror novel. And they just want to get somewhere or find more information. So she offers to take them to the Lord or the King so they can try find out what happened. So the next scene takes us into a completely un-Star Trek-like territory. Remi, are you...
00:21:49
Speaker
There's a lot of background noise. Sorry. There's background noise and your video's disappeared. So it's kind of you're just thinking. No, no, no. I beg your pardon. I actually have to do some editing there.
00:22:02
Speaker
I'm trying to be the worst possible podcast. If I remember rightly, they go in into the hall and they're introduced with the phrase that the days of glad tidings are done, which is a very doom laden sort of pronouncement to bring them into the hall. And they're told that Grendel, this monster who's repelled by light and laughter, who then who takes their people
00:22:31
Speaker
death in Grendel's form lives here now, and the folk are being dragged to Grendel's lair. Yeah, exactly. And I think we mentioned something like Grendel's taken 30 of their previous warriors. And Harry was just another victim in this long line of doom and gloom and death. But two of them wants to know if they can examine Harry's body. And they're just like, well, we don't have a torso around. As you say, it's been taken back to Grendel's lair.
00:23:04
Speaker
But I think two codes into I keep pushing for more information. So now they like, is there a way we can see Grendel? And somehow this escalates into like almost a duel with the King's like side kick or guard, I'm not sure. But kind of the King or Hothkar, is that his name? He kind of relents and he says, well, I guess his like solution is if you want to meet
00:23:36
Speaker
Yeah. It's interesting because there's then this sort of denouement where they come genuine in form of the situation. She gets sort of an interesting little head toss when she hears that Harry might have been killed. But then we sort of head into this interchange between Tuvok and Shikote in which
00:23:53
Speaker
Randall, you can stand guard tonight or something like that.
00:24:04
Speaker
Tuvok explains to Chakotay that in various different cultures, demons are a way of exploring the dark feelings that folk feel. And they basically, Tuvok receives this little parable from Chakotay about a culture which
00:24:26
Speaker
hero worshipped and lionized this individual who ate stones for eight days to try and kill this metaphorical demon lying in his gut and Tuvok responds saying there are no demons in Vulcan literature to which Tuvok responds that tells you why it's so popular.
00:24:47
Speaker
Yeah, it's a very funny exchange. I find that hilarious, but also just really interesting that like the conversation between them, because I think that fable, he explains that the reason the guy eat stones is because they believe that hate is in fact a demon that lives in your belly, an actual life demon. And in order to, I guess, destroy hate within himself, he eats the stones. And then
00:25:13
Speaker
I guess two books sort of saying one of the reasons why they don't have any of those stories in their cultures because of course they have no emotion or they don't feel they don't you know express their emotions so there's no need to write stories about their darker emotions to try and understand them and so it's all carefully linked up I quite like it it's a little interesting conversation between the two of them yeah very good little scene
00:25:39
Speaker
which also represents the character as well. Yeah, I sort of captured the concept to the tune of no woman, no cry, except no demons, no literature. Are you on form today, Amy? Yeah, offending literally everyone going. I think I've probably offended people.
00:26:05
Speaker
I hope we don't have any rights. Can I just add, I have no idea, this is not PC in some way, but the character Freya, I absolutely love her voice. I don't know what it is. Does anyone else get that? I also felt like her voice was different. It felt
00:26:26
Speaker
Maybe not that I think about it. And again, I'm not, uh, maybe this is how a lot of people sound in a certain part of the world. I don't know. But I think like an American, I presume actress. She kind of said a good will, good job of like feeling like she came from another time.
00:26:41
Speaker
Yeah. There's something unique about it. I found, yeah, which I like, you said, I wasn't sure if it was just me being ignorant. She comes from his own part of the world that I just haven't heard many of that accents before. But I don't know if it's just, I don't know if it's accent really though. It's more like her tone, I guess. She spoke with honor. And strength. Yeah. Did either of you ever watch Vikings out of interest?
00:27:06
Speaker
Because I did get Lagos' vibes from her. Lagos is an amazing character in Vikings who embodies what you just said. This is not a podcast about Vikings. Sorry, I'll wind my neck and carry on without you guys. I'm trying to see if I can keep up with her friends. Excuse me. I do love her character though, Alexi again.
00:27:31
Speaker
sort of warrior women, you know? What's the phrase? Subverts the gender norms? I don't know. Subverts the norms, I don't think. Subverts the gender stereotypes. We're hitting all the targets here, guys. Well done. Yeah. Well, even more so when it came out. So it's crazy that sometimes when you watch it, you're like, oh, that's still subverting us, whatever stereotype you might tell. Yeah, that's a bit weird.
00:27:59
Speaker
Um, okay. So let me get a message from, so we still in the hot deck, um, to go to interview, I can actually try and find the imaging matrix or something because Jamie told them to do some diagnostic tests.
00:28:10
Speaker
And they get a message from the bridge and Jamie gives some very complicated techno bubble. And I did make a lot of notes, but does anyone want to give a go about their theory of what happened to Harry?
Matter Conversion Theory
00:28:23
Speaker
They effectively conclude that photonic energy from the annular confinement beam breach had made its way into the holodeck in such a way as to subvert the computer's original programming, taking away safeguards,
00:28:38
Speaker
and potentially... no that was all I had. That was so good! I couldn't I could have bullshat the rest but I thought it was better if I just like went with what I'd noted down verbatim. Oh no it is but that I didn't manage to like capture all of it at the time because like I've got that as a statement and then I've got Ensign Kim may be energy
00:29:05
Speaker
Yeah, so there's the breach, and exactly as you described, even though listening to this time, it's still a type of bubble, so I kind of... But then I think Tuvok says, when he hears this explanation, he's like, that raises an uncomfortable possibility. Ensign Kim might have inadvertently undergone the process of matter conversion. So because they're kind of saying transport and holodictology is kind of similar, I guess, so... Hm, energy matter conversion or something.
00:29:33
Speaker
I would say, I knew more about physics. Did you offer any kind of... I don't think you have to know anything about physics. I think we had an AI we could ask. Yeah. So I think... Oh, did I just skip something? Yeah. So they kind of have figured out possibly what happens to Harry. So in them...
00:29:58
Speaker
Chakotay and Tiwag are still in the hall and something is actually starting to appear. And because they've heard from the characters in the horror novel that this thing appears at night, they want to stay and investigate because they think it might be Grendel appearing. I guess they haven't made the link between Grendel and the photonic energy yet. So Jamie's like, yeah, you can stay. But then Bolana picks up signs of matter energy conversion from, I think, engineering or something and tries to beam
00:30:28
Speaker
to work and to go to yeah, but she can't they're gone. So they've just lost another two members. Yeah. So they're not
00:30:40
Speaker
You know what confused me about this episode is whenever I read the synopsis before I watched, they kept talking about the doctor. But then when I was like watching it, I was like, where is the doctor coming to us? And it's in the very next scene when it all starts.
The Doctor’s First Mission
00:30:53
Speaker
So Jamie, I feel like you want to describe this scene. I actually would be doing this for memory roll nights, but you've effectively got
00:31:04
Speaker
Her Majesty the Skipper, Her Majesty Bolana Torres and Tom Paris discussing what had happened and the fact that they had undergone mass conversion, but
00:31:18
Speaker
there was the possibility they might be able to be rematerialized, but they need to send someone who would be able to engage with, effectively, the Grendel phenomenon to try and scan it to find out the best possible way of doing that. And they're all thinking, well, there's no one, because everyone will get dematerialized.
00:31:42
Speaker
But then Tom Parrish says, maybe not anyone. What's that effect? What does he say? I got the line wrong. I just wrote down the next line, which is, me? We skipped from Tom Parrish saying this is determined heroic adventurer to the doctor in full dungeon. Me? Before we go on, I just want to get your opinion, because when they are kind of going on, Janeway are telling Tom this, you know, what's happened in this theory.
00:32:22
Speaker
I think this reflects a difference in character and personality because both Bolana Torres and the captain, to a degree, are slightly more technical folk and the limits of science and the constraints of what can be done and we've turned them into light. How the F do you do something about that? Whereas Tom Paris is more of a pilot of, we've got to do something!
00:32:35
Speaker
I feel like it's Tom who's like, but we've got to get them back.
00:32:50
Speaker
doesn't know how to do it or anything like that, but just, we know how to do something, sort of, to him as a character to find more. And because of that, I think both, eventually, the captain and Balana Torres would have come to the same conclusion, but Tom Paris does it instinctively.
00:33:06
Speaker
I see, yeah, that makes sense. I just noticed that I'm passing by term, I think. I agree with that assessment. That's a good backstory. I'll keep putting it in. Also Harry King was his best mate. Yes, yeah, I mean, of course. So in the next scene, which starts with that hilarious comic line of The Doctor, just me, or however you deliver, they're basically briefing The Doctor on his first away mission.
00:33:35
Speaker
And I didn't make a ton of notes here, but I did pick up that they need to prepare a couple of things because they need to be able to transfer him to the Podik. He needs to brush up on his knowledge of Beowulf because he's got to be able to play this game or the Hollow Novel, the best of his ability, and a couple of other things. So there's a couple of hours before they can begin the away mission. And he goes back to sick bay. And there's that nice little moment, I guess,
00:34:04
Speaker
him and Kez, because she can pick up that he's a bit nervous and he's like, he kind of lists all the things he can do without being nervous and everything in all the medical knowledge he has. But he's never done this before. He's never faced something like this before. He doesn't know what to expect, I think. Yeah. I did put that just before he did all of those things, Kez asked him who was nervous and
00:34:30
Speaker
before engaging with her, the Doctor chose avoidance in the way that people put the Doctor chose violence. He tries to avoid talking to her by setting her loads of study, which I find absolutely hilarious. But then he has exactly what you said, which I've described as his Hobbit moment, that this is different. I've never even seen this guy and I can't afford to fail. I mean, that is quite a touching moment when you realise that Doctor has never seen this guy. I don't know if I found that quite
00:35:00
Speaker
yeah um and yeah i don't think he even picked up he was trying to distract her because uh yeah so that's a really good point um but then she she gives him some encouraging words which i think helps and she asks that eternal question which is have you picked out a name yet uh because she's like i think you should choose a name before you go and he's like i'll give it a i'll give it a thing i guess
00:35:28
Speaker
And the next thing we see is just Tom and the doctor and sickbay and they're ready to transfer him into the holodeck. And so the next thing we see is the holodeck and the doctor is in it. So that transfer worked, which I guess is quite a big deal because they have not done that before.
00:35:49
Speaker
You've seen many other episodes, don't you? You're like, yeah, yeah, that's the standard. He can do all kinds of things in later episodes, but you forget in these early episodes, he was just, you know, stuck in sickbay and it was quite a big deal for him. He even goes to the holodec, let alone manages to do later episodes. He's still confined to sickbay at this stage.
00:36:09
Speaker
What do you think of his reaction to being in a holiday and that he thinks he's looking at that tree and he's getting a bit distracted from his mission already? In a good way, I would say. Yes, Jamie? I think he really loves it. There's a moment where he sees a tree and he smells it as though he's experiencing something new and exciting for the first time. And it speaks as though rather than being overwhelming, it's stimulating and thrilling for him, I think.
00:36:41
Speaker
Maybe I'm not giving enough credit. The fact that he could even continue with the away mission given he's just been like experiencing so many for the first time in his life is actually quite impressive. Yeah, what stood out for me was, yeah, the more that his absolute dedication to them because whenever anything, any character he interacts with asks him a question unrelated, he's like, I really just want to find Grendel. Anybody want to take me to Grendel? Yes, just some Grendel, we'll do please. He is very
00:37:05
Speaker
Yeah, no, I had to present.
00:37:09
Speaker
one truck. I like it because it also kind of reminds you he's a computer programmer. That is what it's like acting with a computer. Exactly. It's a good way of going to distinguish that he reminds us that he's also not human, as much as he seems so human. But yeah, I feel like someone else is definitely going to cover this. But next, the doctor meets Freya.
00:37:39
Speaker
Mmm.
00:37:42
Speaker
Any comments? I just feel like you expected me to, but I've already done her intro line, so someone else should do this for air. I kind of like this kind of as a doctor's in a holiday, because then everyone gives the same line again and again, like, ah, it's like a horror novel, it's like a computer game, it's like, you know, it makes sense. Yeah, I agree with that. I got that feeling as well, because it's the exact same line and greeting, a spear whizzes across their gaze, and speaker's friend or stand as foe is Quirth once more.
00:38:13
Speaker
The difference is, is this where he announces what he thinks he's decided is his name? Anneli, I'm sure I'm going to have a comment. But I think it's where he kind of accidentally gives away that he knows a lot about her, because he's actually been researching and preparing for the trip. Yes, I make that excuse.
00:38:37
Speaker
your reputation precedes you. She's like, ah, okay, fine, fine, fine. Yeah, I remember now, because then she's really excited that, really? My tales of my deeds have troubled beyond these lands? She gives the smallest board of options.
00:38:53
Speaker
maybe you heard of my fight with the guard it's still the guard dane yes he's like yeah yeah i heard of that one oh yeah that's the one yeah that too yeah i had i had totally forgotten about that interaction until you mentioned it just now read that that was all really good actually i thought most of them were it's quite comedic um i just a lot of the doctor's reactions to the holiday characters i love the like
00:39:16
Speaker
the interaction between this like totally overblown melodramatic holodeck characters living you know acting out this very dramatic play or poem and then that meets this like really sort of comedic
00:39:35
Speaker
a sort of witty reposé from The Doctor.
Holodeck Cultural Clashes
00:39:38
Speaker
I just think the interaction of the two types, I guess, of drama is quite entertaining. And I guess you might go ahead, Janie? No, no, no, sorry. I'm having a really bad episode this one because I keep reacting the same time as other people do and talking across them. I'm so sorry. You go for it. No, I was going to say, I think I had a thought of it like that, Janie, Janie, but
00:40:03
Speaker
I guess it makes that whole, I'm just thinking, the thing that pops into my brain is opposites attract. So it's like building that kind of for later, maybe. But yes, Jamie. And I love the way she finds a way of turning anything that he says into, you must be a massive hero because you said, you want to find Grendel, only a warrior seeks what others flee, Schweitzer, a hero's name indeed. Yes, exactly.
00:40:33
Speaker
I was about to say at the very next point is he does tell her his new name. And as his name came out of his mouth, what did they all think? Why? Yes. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. But it was this sort of, oh, of all the names you could think of in the world. I think there's something just funny about some, you know, like some words sound like K. They always say K is a funny comedic sound.
00:41:02
Speaker
But when it's just like it didn't really fit in this Beowulf environment. Sounds like a middle American hotdog merchant name as opposed to someone in a sort of Fathnerian, Siegfriedian epic. Do you think there's maybe we're missing it's there's something we're missing that actually swipes her as the name of something like a Nobel laureate or something?
00:41:30
Speaker
Yeah, but I mean like a comedic, maybe that, yeah, so they have that explanation for why he chose it, that it's some sort of famous doctor or something, but that also in like popular American culture, it might be the name of like a hot dog vendor or something, some kind of comedic thing we're missing. I don't know. I might look it up later. Isn't that the name of a pharmaceutical company? Not that I've heard of.
00:41:54
Speaker
I just thought, please don't know the name that he chooses for life. I don't know why, just started. So, but yes, as you said, he's very one-track minded and wants to find Brandle, so a free office to take him to the king. They do have this little moment, they stop to examine some plants. I love this moment, yeah. And they find common ground, ironically.
00:42:21
Speaker
because she starts to pick them and he stops her saying, those are toxic, and she says, yeah, they're to basically send you into a heightened state for battle as you survive. And you're like, is the doctor going to take these and become a bear circle or berserk?
00:42:38
Speaker
Um, yeah, they have a little moment. And as you said, Jamie, I think she says, all right, your people must really value you, value you. As he's walking off screen, you hear, you would think so, just quietly. But yeah, if it's nothing else, um, the next scene we back in the hall, the guest Viking hall.
00:43:02
Speaker
Well, yeah, see, because some of my favourite scenes coming up now. It doesn't mean I remember much about them. But yeah, okay, so obviously, he's back in the hall, and he's saying the same sort of things that Ticote and Tuvok said previously about how he wants to see Grendel, and the Lord is saying, oh, you know,
00:43:25
Speaker
another warrior has come to challenge Grendel and we've got, what's his name, Unfirth? Unfirth. Again saying, oh you Rezar only arrived just to raise our hopes and dash them again. And
00:43:42
Speaker
that I believe is it when he decides he's going to actually challenge him to a duel before he's allowed to meet Grendel. So he gets out his sword and Freya I believe hands the well I would say the Dr. Schweitzer her sword and the doctor sort of looks
00:44:04
Speaker
Very concerned, but you know, sheepish sheen raises his sword, yeah. And they sort of have this like mini battle during which it becomes very clear very quickly that the doctor is pretty poor in battle. They're all sort of laughing at him and saying, oh, he's no match for Grendel. So the doctor says, right, enough of this foolishness. And he just puts down the sword.
00:44:26
Speaker
And, you know, everyone's expecting him to immediately be run through. But in fact, of course, he controls. I don't know if we covered this earlier, but basically, Janeway, I think at some point earlier says to him, you know, while you're in there, you'll be able to choose when you're solid and when you can be, you know, just hologram. So of course, when this Unfer tries to run him through, he chooses to be a hologram and the sword
00:44:51
Speaker
just slices right through him. And of course, everyone then thinks he's this wonderful warrior, you know, subhuman being who's going to defeat Grendel for them. All hail Schweitzer. Yes, and they chant and the doctor has this look of joy on his face like, wow, no one's ever chanted my name before. Very true. But yeah, the characters really love this. And I'm sorry, something else that I just realized is like,
00:45:20
Speaker
It's very random thought, but I didn't play a lot of computer games. I kind of found them a bit annoying as a kid and I've already got into them. And now I'm thinking like, oh yeah, that, that whole like dual thing with the anther is like just another obstacle to getting to, like, you know, if you're playing a game, that's how it would work. You know, you don't just go straight to the challenge challenge. You're like, build up to a different and you have to overcome and solve this and get over there.
00:45:42
Speaker
So I'm like, so they, I think they also put thought into, you know, what the horror novel should, how it should work. Yes. When I say they invite us. On first is a sub boss. Yeah. So sorry for your benefit. I think that was, I guess, Super Mario's or something. The big evil thing at the end of a, at the end of a level would be called the boss. Boss for level one, boss for level two.
00:46:13
Speaker
Was that just Super Mario, or was that across the board? No, there's so many, so many video games, like so many bosses. Oh, okay. I just did Super Mario Bros. That's it. What are they saying? This is what I'm basing all mine from. I love Super Mario Bros., but that was it.
00:46:29
Speaker
Do, do, do, do, sorry. You know about that bad podcast that keeps getting off on segues? Oh no, I was just about to go off on a Super Mario Brothers segues. Do it, do it, do it. I got for Christmas present a few years back a like vintage thing, you know, that had Super Mario Brothers on it, the one that I used to play when I was like 12, so it was awesome. That is very... Tixellated and everything. Yes.
00:46:58
Speaker
I love it. Actually, as a 25 year old, because I've gone on and on about it, my friend of mine got like the old, I mean, it was a new version, but like the, because it was a cassette or what was it? Yes, the cassette. And we connected it up to like our Diggs TV and took it on a roaring camp and I think it was hilarious. Oh, wow. You and me have to play Super Mario Brothers together. It was so important.
00:47:23
Speaker
I got her in very good. I just spray left again. I mean, that was terrible. My sister was brilliant. She absolutely loved it and she stood there for hours and knew all the cheats and everything. I enjoyed it for about 30 minutes and then I'd get bored.
00:47:38
Speaker
Yeah, you know what I mean? It's not a good pairing for me. So the next scene we are, it's just, it's still in the hall and it's just a bit later. Time has passed and all the warriors are sitting around this big table eating.
00:47:54
Speaker
and the king asked the doctor to tell a story from his land yes and now can i sorry i realized that i i peeked too soon it's a bit that the scene i described before was actually the one before my favorite scene and this is my favorite scene because there's two there's two bits in this which i love which is this one coming up where
00:48:13
Speaker
The doctor says, OK, I'll tell you. I could tell you a tale. Yes, a tale of my trial. And he goes into this really long winded, complicated scientific tale about how there was a virus on board once. And he had to like find a vaccine. He did all this like, you know, experimenting with, you know, whatever is lymphocytes or white blood cells. I can't remember. But
00:48:34
Speaker
um and he's he just performs it really well i think because he puts across this oh he is so good yeah character of like really he's really getting into it and he's like remembering and very very pleased with himself when he should be because you know he formulated a vaccine which presumably saved all the ship's crews
00:48:51
Speaker
all the crew members' lives. And I also just love the responses of the Beowulf characters, which, you know, the Unferth sort of says, what, there's Volley, and storms off. And the others sort of look at him like, yeah, like, the way you look at someone when you're really polite, but also you've suddenly come to the realization that the person you're sitting next to might be some kind of lunatic.
00:49:20
Speaker
I don't know if I remember correctly because I didn't really make a note. I think the Lord Rasko, he's like trying to understand. Jamie has the line. I've got the line. Can I say the line? So, Unfirth has stormed out. And so if anyone who's not watching this, I was literally jumping up and down because I wanted to load this line. So Unfirth has stormed out. There's this absolutely stunned and incredibly, we're being very polite to the lunatic silence. And then the Lord says,
00:49:48
Speaker
a truly unique tale, which is absolutely true. And yet, by the sure absence of anything else is like damning with faint praise.
00:50:00
Speaker
He's just so nice. He's such a nice guy. But this is the hilarious thing, right? There's that step. And then there's the follow on bit, which is also hilarious, where he says, come from a walk with me. And I don't know why I find this so hilarious. But it's the scene where he said he's offering him things that he's offering him some meat to try. And then and then, you know, a waiter comes up to him and says, you know, here's mead. And the Lord says, oh, would you like some meat? And he says,
00:50:30
Speaker
Thank you, thank you, very politely, just randomly out of nowhere the Lord says, away with you, you're disturbing Lord Schweitzer with your mead and knocks the mead out of the way to sound. And that is it, that is it, but it's just the strange sudden contrast of Lord character is hilarious. I'm so glad you brought that up because that scene was hilarious. I just like could not bring myself to write a note about it because I was thinking somebody noticed about the technical detail of what was going on.
00:50:59
Speaker
I'm so glad you're reminded because that scene is hilarious because he's like being so nice and hospitable to the Lord, Dr. Schweitzer. And then he just sent me back, like, yeah, throws the meat over. Yeah, and I guess it's also the contrast of Schweitzer's, the doctor's response. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. No, thank you. Followed by this completely overblown reaction. It's brilliant. Can you remind me, what's the name of the King, the Lord?
00:51:29
Speaker
I'm just saying Rothgar. Rothgar. Rothgar, baby. Rothgar. It's so hard to remember his name. Anyway, sorry. Also, something just right at the beginning of the scene when the doctor is telling a story, he was eating. I mean, the way he was eating was so funny. I'm telling a story like gnawing on a giant bird. I mean, it was really funny, a couple of very funny scenes.
00:51:59
Speaker
You know, just a girl from a Star Trek related tangent.
00:52:05
Speaker
Red, you mentioned ages ago. I can't remember if we've spoken about this actually on a podcast, not just when we've been chatting offline, but about the Delta Flyers podcast. Yes. And Harry Kim characters did in COVID pandemic. So I started listening to that because you mentioned it was really good. It is really good. I really enjoy listening to it. There's one other podcast I got to recently where they phone up
00:52:34
Speaker
the character that played the Doctor. I don't know if you remember this one. Yeah, I mean, I've listened to so many now, but they call up Bob Picano. Yes. Yeah, that's his name. Yeah. And it just really surprised me because I've actually never heard or seen him anywhere other than as he's playing his character in Star Trek. So it's pretty weird to hear him speaking as not as the Doctor.
00:52:57
Speaker
Yeah, it was pretty weird. But also, it's cool, it sort of seemed like his character is a little bit like the Doctor in real life. Like just very energetic and sort of bubbly and full of laughter. I'd say that's how it came about. I mean, I think when you listen to more episodes of Delta Flies, assuming you do, but and also
00:53:22
Speaker
I think The Doctor is one of those characters where his TV character was informed by the real actor more than some of the other characters. And he had a bit more of a say in some of the direction. I think because he was, I mean, they're already good actors, but he was obviously, if he was just going to play like an emotionless hologram, the series would have been very boring. So he maybe pushed for more character development.
00:53:48
Speaker
Also something that he got to do which he mentions is that sometimes he improvised a line or made a suggestion which again on that show was very very unusual because the writers were like just say it the way it's written don't you know which is you know fine but obviously it's different from show to show so when he missed something like oh yeah I improvised that line the other like um
00:54:09
Speaker
like, oh, really? Wow, you were allowed to do that because we never allowed to. Yeah, you can understand why, I guess, because imagine, like, because there's so much sort of, like, sci fi, sort of technobabble and whatnot, and thought that goes into
00:54:25
Speaker
how it's all going to work and continuity things as well. I guess I can understand why they seem strict, but it sounds like it was a good idea to let him improvise a little because it's really funny. Yes, he is. But yes, it's weird that he's like when you kind of see him in real life on podcasts, interviews, whatever. He's like the doctor, but he's also so different from the doctor. So, yeah.
00:54:51
Speaker
Well, yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed that podcast. I've made so many podcast recommendations and I think only people have understood to me twice. Don't recommend this one to anyone. Not true, because you recommended this to people and now we have 56 viewings. That's true. Yeah, I haven't told anyone. I've actually tried to suppress people's knowledge of this. Yeah, I've mentioned it. People have disappeared. Not in a way he could find it.
00:55:22
Speaker
Um, yeah, so back to our episode though. Um, I think, uh, I just want to come back and like give the doctor, like basically talking to you saying, I don't trust you. And, uh, he seems very threatened and that storms off again. I'm not sure.
Freya and the Doctor's Connection
00:55:38
Speaker
But there's only Freya and doctor, the doctor left and she's serving a fire to keep him warm. Warm eyebrows raised.
00:55:48
Speaker
I know. It's your chance to go wild. There are other ways to keep warm, Red. That's true. You know where I sleep all day. I don't know what any of them are because I'm a simple soul and my heart is pure, but I wanted to actually dwell on the fact that before that,
00:56:04
Speaker
the king is trying to bond with the doctor by showing him the sword with which he got his first kill at age 11 and the doctor is horrified by this which prompted on for the next challenge but yes as you say Freya stokes the fire and says that
00:56:24
Speaker
she was told the world would end in winter when a demon ate the sun and she says a demon walks the hall so maybe the world is indeed ending and the doctor the doctor tries to reassure her saying that the world is not ending but he knows what it is to be alone and born yet not heard and empathizes
00:56:49
Speaker
Frere then starts preempting her death, although she says that she's heard that fate spares a doomed warrior if their courage prevails, and she offers help to the doctor to stay warm and for his courage to prevail, as one of the ways that one can keep warm without fire. Basically, she kisses the doctor and says, you know where I sleep, and walks off.
00:57:15
Speaker
and then we panned to the doctor's face and I'm not going to describe it because once again I have a simple soul and my heart is pure so I'll leave that to you, Red.
00:57:25
Speaker
I was writing my notes, I don't remember. I was focusing on and maybe this was clearly not the thing to focus on. Suddenly everyone has an alibi for this. No I just thought clearly this is just a bloody brain thing but I was like clearly this is not the thing to focus on. I was like how can he go and join her in the bedchamber when what if Grendel appears while he's gone off with her and that clearly
00:57:49
Speaker
Well, that's why he doesn't, I think, right? I mean, unless there's like a missing scene. Fine. Someone who I've no idea who it was, with handwriting that's remarkably similar to my own, wrote Doctor's First Snog slash bonus slash conquest in my notepad. Which wasn't me. Someone managed somehow to get access to my notepad, write that one line in, and then didn't sign or take responsibility.
00:58:16
Speaker
Well, did you write down the word boner? I just... I did not. This person who snuck in and infiltrated my notepad may have. That's all I'm saying.
00:58:30
Speaker
You should have seen it when I, you know, showed you the notepad. If you didn't notice it, then maybe it's not there. Okay. I did write, is this the doctor's first kiss in my notes, which I presume it is. I don't know. Did they come back in Starfleet training? Hang on, there was another. The holograms? He did have another romantic interest earlier on, but I don't know if they kissed. Did he? It was in the, it was, oh yeah, it was. It's one we've covered. Oh, yes. It's one with the sick people. The sick.
00:59:01
Speaker
Um, the one that you didn't want to watch because it was going to be too disgusting. Is that the one? Oh, is it a phage one? Was it? Yes. Who was it with? When did I have a female doctor? I could be thinking of future episodes. Yeah, it might be. Yeah, I don't think it's happened with us. I was going to say your memory because Jane and I got confused. Yep. I think I'm right.
00:59:30
Speaker
Yeah, so we'll go with Jamie on this. It's his first kiss. I'm sure our listeners will let us know if we're wrong. Yeah, get in touch. We'd love to hear from you and potentially judge our quality as human beings by the caliber of people who listen to us. Oh, that's dangerous. Okay. So I think she says, you know, where I sleep, he's left there kind of like stunned and thinking or contemplating, but he is still focused on his mission. And he knows I think that Grendel could be appearing soon or
00:59:58
Speaker
Granal does start to appear soon.
Encounter with Grendel
01:00:01
Speaker
So, it's the same, like, phantom energy that we saw with Harry at Coate. And he's being monitored. Oh, yes, because at that point, he doesn't even check in with the bridge, and Janeway's like, yes, we're monitoring you. And I was like, did she just monitor that whole previous? Yeah, yeah. I had the same. Monitor this. Yeah. She's very, very neutral.
01:00:29
Speaker
Maybe another reason why I didn't head back to the sleeping quarters. Yeah, they're monitoring him and I guess they're not anticipating any danger to the doctor, but that is not what happens.
01:00:45
Speaker
Hmm. The thing appears, Grendel appears, and this time we get to see it. And it's this large light. That's the best way I can think to describe it. Lots of white light. And then it has these light tentacles. And some of them reach out to the doctor and sort of start snaking their way off his arm. And he sort of immediately says, right, send me back. Get me back emergency transport.
01:01:12
Speaker
And they do manage to get him back, but not all in one piece, because the tentacled arm is completely disappeared, and he's lost a limb. He looks like he's caught with it. He's harmless, sir. He's harmless. But there's no pain, so it's all good. There's some emotional pain, given the fact that he looks at his arm, just horror of what the fuck am I in. Sorry, pardon my French. Oh, I'm going to have to update this to, there is swear again this podcast.
01:01:42
Speaker
You're welcome. Yeah, he does look horrified, I would say. But great special effects. Again, I think we have to take ourselves back to 1990, wherever this was. And he's like looking down. I mean, you know, we take it for granted. I think that was a good special effect. Yeah, considering. Yeah, back then. Sorry, I meant that as a compliment. Considering. It's a great shape considering.
01:02:11
Speaker
Uh, do you reckon that's a British cultural, or, you know, I don't know. Do you reckon Americans wouldn't get that if we went, why are they all going on about the fact they said considering as though that's the most damning insult I've ever had? That, yeah. Good question. Um, so obviously the next scene we see the doctor again and his time has passed and he has his arm back. Um,
01:02:39
Speaker
Milana has been she's also there and she's been studying the readings the doctor managed to get before he was transferred back, which has given them a direction of investigation.
01:02:54
Speaker
But I don't know if I understood what I want. So let me step in. Or can I step in please? You step in. So the reading they took of Grendel shows synaptic patterns suggesting that actually the creature itself may actually be a life form with brainwaves and everything like that, which is implied by the fact synaptic patterns.
01:03:23
Speaker
Yeah. Again, that was it. That was in my head. You start off so strongly and then you're like, well, what more do you want to need? Grendel is alive. Yeah. Okay. So he's alive. I'll try. Maybe we can do all that. Remember a little bit. And so we'll be sitting together. There was a lot of techno battles. So that was one of the things they discovered from this extra data. And then the other thing was something about how there appeared to be also three distinct
01:03:52
Speaker
I guess, synaptic patterns as well. And so they start to conclude that possibly those three distinct patterns might in fact be the patterns of their missing group members. And so maybe there's a chance that they could get them back.
01:04:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think that might be a little bit further along, but I think, yeah, I again, when Jamie spoke the tenor bevel, I just turned off the best Jamie. That's what happens when I'm watching the show sometimes, but they have an experiment to run. And so we see Tom and Belanna running this experiment in engineering and
01:04:34
Speaker
Uh, yeah, they have the experimenting on one of the containers of photonic energy. And while they're running the experiment, I think something happens that it's not supposed to happen, but, um, they seem to accidentally create a smaller version of the energy, which formation, which escapes and, uh, like kind of evading them in the ship. Like, so they try to like set up force fields to capture this little bit of escape time, which makes them realize.
01:05:00
Speaker
It's behaving like an intelligent life form if it's trying to evade capture. I love the next books. It reminds me of cartoons, because I don't know if you've watched cartoons where someone was on a ship at sea, someone like Elmer Fudd, and basically someone would drop a cannonball, who just goes straight all the way through all the decks and out the bottom of the ship, because that's effectively what this ball of light does. It does the Star Trek version of the cannonball going out through the decks.
01:05:29
Speaker
It just sort of makes a beeline for outside. Yeah, so it cuts through the hull. I mean, they have to, like, have a force field at that point. But they track it as a field English ship, as they see something quite spectacular. I thought it was like a little fairy and then you see this, like, I don't know how to explain it, Jenny.
01:05:53
Speaker
Yeah, the little sort of little light floating out. It's sort of floating out, it escapes out of the ship and out into the middle of space and then this second large round light appears and it basically engulfs the little mini light which sort of later on we learn is this best way of describing it is what it actually seems to be is the little light is a life form going home to
01:06:21
Speaker
It's photonic home. Yeah. It's a big sun that sort of wanders around following them all, with all of them brought together. Yeah, I don't know when, but in some way, I mean, they don't really know what it is. I think at some point, Janeway is like, yeah, it could be its ship, it could be its home.
01:06:38
Speaker
Could be an amorphous life form composed of a gestalt symbiote where multiple creatures gather together to form a unique and coherent whole, but are also able to divulge off into multiples in order to simultaneously carry out tasks to the greater good of the whole.
01:06:58
Speaker
I'm going to make a note there, and I will... Oh my god! You both gave me so much shit about not finishing strong. I just thought I had to go through with that one. Was that from Star Trek or something? I made that up off the cuff.
01:07:13
Speaker
Wow, Jamie, your plans are wasted. Yes. I thought you were reading it from Wikipedia. Well, in a hurry, dream weaving and mindscaping architect forge will be a thing. My talents are not being wasted. You can be a charging consultant now. I mean, you should have been awarded for the last five years and charged a million pounds a day. So the next thing, we're in the briefing room with Jamie, Belonna, and Dr.
01:07:42
Speaker
And they kind of discussing the fact that this energy form was trying to get back to the lattice. And I think it's at this point that Janeway says they had some kind of contact with the lattice briefly, and that's when they picked up the three biological signals, which hints that there could be the missing crew members. And this is not what they said, but at this point, I think they decided to realize that in hindsight, they realized they accidentally kidnapped beings from the protostar when they beamed those samples aboard.
01:08:12
Speaker
And they think that my form is retaliating. Yeah. And Janeway says, I mean, imagine if this were us and two of our team members had been taken and we'd started being experimented on. Experimented on. Yeah. And they come up with the plan. Sorry, go on, Jake. No, I was basically thinking that was the concept of the half-life uber-violent video games. But anyway, carry on.
01:08:41
Speaker
I mean, we don't dwell on that, but it is like a very powerful point. Like, you know, you see the perspective of the... Yeah, you can understand if the photonic lattice had chosen violence at that point.
01:08:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So they decided that the best thing to do is to release the one that they still have. And they try to do so in a way that is to sort of communicate that they are releasing it.
Resolution with Photonic Life Form
01:09:08
Speaker
And they won't be taking any other prisoners or doing any other experiments. And then they hope that the life form will release their own crew members.
01:09:21
Speaker
So that is for the doctor to take the little life form in a little sort of jar, for want of a better word. Canister, container. Canister, canister back into the holodeck, which leads us onto the next scene. Yeah. And he's very keen, I mean, he has the best place to do the job, but he's also very keen to finish what he started. He seems ready for this. Is he keen to finish what he started?
01:09:51
Speaker
Well, that's what he said. I mean, what he started may not have been the release of the Photonic Creature. I think what he started is something very Dr. Bam Shakabel. Well, that is a segue into the next scene, which is kind of sad. But yeah, he goes back to the whole deck, back into the Beowulf, which is still running because they can't shut it off.
01:10:19
Speaker
And he calls out to Freya, who finds him, and he is trying to explain what he calls a talisman, to keep it in the context of the world, to a hall. But they're interrupted by, what's his name? Anthoth.
01:10:39
Speaker
I'll type it in the text here. Hang on. Everyone seems to really like Hansel. I have written that down many times. Can everyone read that? Can you type in the king's name as well?
01:10:55
Speaker
Rofka. Rof- Unfirth. Rofka. Rofka. Okay, yeah, so. But then, so Unfirth turns up, and he doesn't trust the Doctor anymore, and he doesn't believe that the talisman is going to help. And so he challenges the Doctor to another, which seems to be this character's only function. It's all I know is challenging people to be dual. For no reason at all.
01:11:26
Speaker
But that's how he's programmed. He's a sub-level boss. He's supposed to challenge people to a duel. It's part of the video game. Now that I've got that video game lens on it, it's making a bit more... I know that it didn't make sense, but it's adding an extra layer of... I thought it didn't make sense until we thought of it as a video game, to be honest. Yeah. But yes, do you want to carry on, Jenny? Sorry.
01:11:50
Speaker
Yeah, so, so he starts trying to, you know, attack the doctor, doctor sort of falls over, I think, and drops the talisman. Doctors, obviously, I should point out, he can't, he can't turn himself into a, you know, hologram that doesn't, that's not solid anymore, because he has to, has to hold on to the talisman. I do, I am a bit confused about that, to be honest, because I'm a bit like, can you not just put the talisman down for a minute?
01:12:14
Speaker
and then let Anther run him through a few times until Anther gives up because he realizes that he can't hurt the hologram and then the doctor can pick up the talisman. I think he's got to protect that talisman with his life because if that's accidentally released he doesn't get to deliver the message but I see what you're saying but
01:12:35
Speaker
I also just thought it was more because you're not a very good fighter. Yeah, maybe he's a bit he does. He looks a bit nervous, doesn't he? And he's sort of like a warrior to do, but he mustn't drop the talisman and kind of kind of deal. So anyway, but he sort of stumbles over and drops talisman. And, you know, he managed to, I think he manages to grab hold of it again, stand up, but he's basically about to be murdered by this unfurth guy. When Freya heroically jumps in front of him to protect him,
01:13:03
Speaker
and is tragically stabbed by all of us. Yes. By her. Very sad. What's the word? Village mate? Tragic. Village mate? What? Oh, I've got to speak to her, but he obviously didn't mean to kill her, so it's very tragic. He is. And then she has a little sort of death scene with Doctor, and he's comforting her, and she says, you know, it's a good death, because, you know, death in battle. In battle. Bit like the Klingons. Yes, I also thought that.
01:13:34
Speaker
And she's having to die with the Doctor's name on her lips. I knew I was missing a crucial piece of that scene, yeah, that's it. She's like, Schweitzer. I think then the next moment is quite significant because we often think of the Doctor as a character who's a bit prissy and fussy and lacking in depth. But he then shows that he's a man of deeply held convictions because he confronts Unferth.
01:14:01
Speaker
telling him that the only reason he isn't going to kill him is because he took an oath to do no harm, which is a degree of immense restraint, considering the fact we were talking A, the Doctor's first whatever.
01:14:16
Speaker
confronted with the fact that taking some cathartic revenge would be on a hologram who frankly people regularly apparently beat up, kill, off or as Tuvok says, delete character with some frequency during their leisure hours.
01:14:34
Speaker
Yes, you're saying it's that doctor shows a lot of restraint there and relies on his medical training to hold back. Well, I think not, yes, restraint, but also is very deeply guided to a degree beyond what most might expect by his Hippocratic oath to do no harm, which is interesting. They're sort of colouring the doctor's potential depth in sort of one action at a time, and I like it. Oh, good. I think he likes it. As a UV who knows nothing.
01:15:04
Speaker
I think Unfeld tries to lie as well, isn't he sort of blaming the doctor for her death? Yes, another layer of anger at Unfeld. But they basically
01:15:19
Speaker
sort of let, I think they let him have another go, don't they, with Grendel in the end. And so, you know, the doctor says, Grendel, I'm ready for you. And Grendel appears, which we now know is this life form, photonic life form.
01:15:36
Speaker
And it all seems to go to plan. The doctor opens up the talisman jar. Sorry, what's it called again? Callister. I just keep thinking jam jar, but it's a bit more upmarket than that. And the little mini life form is released. And the doctor tries to explain to the photographic life form, you know, let's stop this. You know, we've released your life forms. Can you release ours?
01:16:06
Speaker
And then I think there's a moment of suspense where we don't know what's happened. We jump back to the scene with Janeway. And I can't remember what happens next. I think, yeah, I mean, I didn't make, yeah, I think that was a really good summary. We do see when, we know it's worked. And I don't actually, I think they must be in the heart of Dick, but I like to quote a two bar group here and Harry and he's actually in costume for his time. Yeah.
01:16:36
Speaker
And he hears the captain congratulating the doctor. And he says, I'm sure I agree. Would you mind telling me where I was? And also, wasn't Harry just recently like beamed to the netherworld or whatever? I mean, he's had a couple of these like... People beam him a lot. I wonder if like something is meant by every time Harry is beamed somewhere, a director somewhere drinks.
01:17:01
Speaker
I just, I hope he's getting in between these episodes. There's, you know, like a few weeks off with some counselling. Yes, some therapy. At this time, at least this time he, maybe he was just, it was a bit like being in the transport for a bit longer. Not completely. Not too bad. Yeah, but I was like, wow, poor Harry.
01:17:27
Speaker
Yeah, so the next we, the final scene I think is in Sick Bay. And it's the scene between the doctor and Captain Janeway. And he seems, I wish I made more detailed notes, but I wrote that we can see the doctor has already been impacted by this experience of first contact, like very, I think he's like buzzing or, um, he is and hearing the Captain Bond over it, don't they?
01:17:54
Speaker
Yeah, because I think she's helping him process it because she's possibly being through it. And she says, which is very nice, that she's going to place a special recommendation in the logs in recognition of his achievement.
01:18:13
Speaker
you know, if they all die before they found, there'll be a lot of summer. It's a morbid way of looking at it. And she wants to name him, doesn't she? Yes, she does. And she'd like to know what his name is so that she can name him the combination. And he explains, although he did choose one, he's, you know, the last time he had it spoken was when dear Freya died. And so therefore he thinks he might get back to the drawing board with the name thing.
01:18:40
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. It's got bad memories. All sad memories associated with it. So he's gone back to not having a name. And as I said, Jamie, when this first came up a few episodes ago, be prepared for one of the longest running jokes in Voyager. Wise words. Wise words.
01:19:02
Speaker
Um, from January, the doctor or me. I just thought it was the right time to say that. No, for me, obviously massive tool bag. Um, but yeah, that brings us to the end. So I guess just a moment to think about any lessons or themes that stood out for you.
01:19:23
Speaker
Um, I mean, mine will obviously be gratuitous and given subject matter probably in poor taste, but I think that holodeck abuse is a real problem and societally they need to do something about it over there.
01:19:39
Speaker
When you say hollow sweet abuse, can you elaborate, please? Holiday. Holiday. I mean, what sort of... No, I'm being facetious. I just think that if you're going to go into an environment with potentially triggering incidents and violence and things like that, people need to be able to get you out easily. And clearly mistakes were made because, you know, they weren't able to get Harry out easily.
01:20:07
Speaker
and bad stuff could have happened. That Freya, I mean, she seems nice, but could she be a wrong one? Jury's out. I feel like this is very counterfactual. Is that how you use that word? I don't know. Why not?
01:20:24
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I actually find it a little bit more difficult to pick out like really obvious key themes in this one. Just thinking about it now, I guess like stories, the importance of stories comes to mind, like obviously it's quite, I don't know who sort of wrote this one, but I can see, I imagine they're thinking go something like, yeah, let's bring in some dramatic old English poetry and drama and combine it with fantasy sci-fi Star Trek and that'll
01:20:54
Speaker
bring up all kinds of creative and hilarious interactions between characters. So I feel like there was a lot of sort of, I guess, like creative thoughts that went into it. Yeah. I think as soon as you mentioned the story, are you going to? No, no, no.
01:21:17
Speaker
The last episode we watched was about story, right? Because they're on a hedonistic planet and they want to exchange literature for the device to get them home. And I think this is something when you watch the series in quick succession, I think I've noticed it on Star Trek or something else, but like series that weren't meant to be binged.
01:21:40
Speaker
I feel like sometimes you can notice the writers like get onto like some kind of track and then there'll be like a couple of stories that are related kind of to that topic, you know, like another season and like suddenly it's all about something.
01:21:55
Speaker
Um, you wouldn't notice it. I think if you're watching it week to week, but if you watch three episodes in one day and you're like, this is the third episode that is kind of a bard. And I'm like, can they just, if you have an idea for a story, you could just put it in the backlog. You don't have to do it straight away. But yeah, I'm not sure that's what's going on here, but something I did notice rewatching, I think it was Star Trek or Deep Space Nine or something. Like last time I rewatched it. Um.
01:22:22
Speaker
But yeah, I also struggled with theme or lessons. I feel like I had a lesson when we were talking and then that's like left my brain. But what about star player? Oh yeah, I know mine.
Humor and Recognition Moments
01:22:37
Speaker
But I can't pronounce his name. I was like, my stop is Rogar. Rogar? I just friggin love that moment when he's like taking away or disturbing Lord Schweitzer. I don't know why, I have a very strange sense of humour. No, it was very funny. I remember that. What was disturbing Lord Schweitzer? Oh, the beer, yeah.
01:23:08
Speaker
It was like nothing really it was it was just so such an overreaction and I just think that guy whoever the actor has delivered it really well and it was in the within the contrast of obviously the doctor saying oh thank you thank you that's very kind but it was a sort of polite um and uh yeah I just I just loved that it must have lasted two seconds but that's like my favorite bit. Oh I think he deserves it for that and I also that like little scene where he is sharing it with his first kill and like
01:23:36
Speaker
The doctor's just like, why take it away? And he said he's the most terrible woman or something, not like, I know, I was way too young. Yeah, plus the little bit where he's, I can't remember, unless he says something about, oh, a most unique tale or something. The doctor's telling him. Jamie?
01:23:57
Speaker
I mean, obviously the serious player of the episode is the Doctor, but I'd like to give Shikote a honourable mention for culturally educating Tuvok, and also reminding him about the relative merits of Vulcan literature. Yeah, another good scene. I... Gosh, stop it. Okay, maybe I'm gonna go...
01:24:27
Speaker
Oh, my lord. For the doctor. It just... I mean, you can't otherwise. Like, things about him. Someone needs to do, I think, because... Yeah, he did a great job. Yeah. He's the only one who doesn't get kidnapped, experiments on a species they're having first contact with, or indeed get killed by unfirth. Yeah, so he is my father. Yeah.
01:24:56
Speaker
Any final words before we stop recording? Do you have a special message for any of our business, Jamie? Don't stalk me. Okay. I'm going to have to edit that out because that's perfectly on the internet an invitation to be stalked. Yeah, please edit that out. Don't stalk red. Oh, please. And on that note, stop.