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We watch "Learning Curve" (S1 Ep.16)
34 Plays1 year ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Learning Curve" in which Janeway assigns Tuvok to train a group of Maquis crew members to adapt to Starfleet protocols, while B’Elanna and the Doctor try to figure out what is ailing the bioneural circuitry that runs many of the critical systems on Voyager.
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Transcript
Introduction and Trigger Warnings
00:00:01
Speaker
Oh, so I'm starting? Well, I just really feel that... Sorry, you really didn't team that up very well for me. Give us your countdown.
00:00:10
Speaker
Oh no, as far as I was concerned you were just doing jazz hands at the screen. Oh Jamie, don't leave your emails, can't see the card done. So was there an email I was supposed to receive prior to this, Red? You seem quite exercised about the fact I seem not to know what I'm talking about. A generally and B about
00:00:31
Speaker
some sort of a summary that you both have been talking about. But before I let you dive in with both feet in a two-footed tackle to cut me off at the knees the way that I can see you,
00:00:41
Speaker
does not have rugby reference it's sort of mixing metaphor between rugby and football i'm reaching out i'm trying to reach out to a broad uh viewer demographic because of course rugby and soccer fans are uh sorry football fans are what we find on star trek podcast audiences but no i would like to take this opportunity i would like to take this opportunity to invite you
00:01:07
Speaker
To concede that maybe before setting me this episode to watch knowing what you do about my dietary preferences, you should maybe have given me a trigger warning.
Cheese Aversion and Star Trek Setup
00:01:18
Speaker
I want to give that to various of our listeners because listeners who like me are saying.
00:01:26
Speaker
and cannot abide the taste of cheese, might be traumatized. No, because people that are lactose intolerant, and then there are people that are not lactose intolerant, everyone likes cheese except you. And to hate all cheese is just the strangest thing. Very special. I could have done with you giving me a trigger warning about the fact that you were going to sort of isolate me from the rest of humanity in this way as well.
00:01:51
Speaker
But you don't want to take that opportunity to basically offer a trigger warning to our viewers about the nature of this episode. You don't normally do trigger warnings, but this episode will be just some very high bacterial cheese. This episode has one of my favourite lines. I wanted to do cheese. I remember the first time, this is bringing back a memory now, and it's nice to actually capture this on
00:02:19
Speaker
audio because I have no memory of my life. But, um, I think you guys were coming around for dinner, maybe when I still lived in Putney and I remember messaging Jenny going like, Oh, is there anything you guys don't eat? And she was like, Oh yeah, Jamie doesn't like cheese. I was like,
00:02:33
Speaker
Oh my God. I was going to make like a pasta bag. You made the most incredible sort of rice, long grain salad that I've been in love with for ages and I still want your recipe of. And every few years I ask you for the recipe of it. But anyway, should we talk about Star Trek? Just because we have viewers who may not be as interested in cheese-based triple wheat as I am. And I've tripped our memory lane. So I can summarize the episode in one line if you want.
00:03:02
Speaker
Great.
Season Finale Celebration
00:03:03
Speaker
I'm very excited. But first of all, self-congratulations to us because we've reached the final episode of season one, Epstein. That's why I have my drink to toast. And Jenny, two weeks ago, you said make sure you have a drink. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. David Goggins, don't stop when you're tired. Stop when you're done. And so this week we are talking about learning curve, which is the final episode of season one.
Episode Overview and Podcast Reflections
00:03:30
Speaker
And before we dive into our one minute summary, I just have like one thing I have to share or say, but, um, I don't know if you guys listened to in our time with Melbourne Bragg, what do you listen to? I listened to that this morning. Yes. Well, I may not. Sorry, Karen. For one of the longest podcasts that I listened to. In fact, I remember getting my first smartphone secondhand buying it from a guy at work. And the first thing I did was download the BBC sounds app. I think it was all the, like that version.
00:03:57
Speaker
The first thing I found was in our time, or one of the first things, apart from all the Paul temples, that's a different story. But last week in our time had its 1000th episode, which I feel as a big fan, I just wanted to acknowledge because we're on episode 16 and we've got a long way to go. We'll be doing this in our 70s. Yeah, so I just wanted to acknowledge that. But Jamie, over to you for your one minute summary of Learning Curve.
Episode Summary and Humor
00:04:26
Speaker
Well, this is very much ad-libbed, but it felt as though it was Tuvuk's attempt to be the drill sergeant from Full Metal Jacket met Ratatouille. Met Ratatouille? I don't know either. The drill sergeant says Jenny, can you confirm?
00:04:45
Speaker
our viewers will. No idea. Our viewers will. So Full Metal Jacket is sort of the par excellence. And also you're 25 seconds in to your one minute summary. And you're taking up time so like, you know, to use the football reference, the referees stop counting time. So Full Metal Jacket is basically the par excellence sort of
00:05:13
Speaker
soldier goes off trains in the army under brutal drill sergeant and then goes off to Vietnam War, war movie of the Vietnam War, of which many of its lines will doubtless go down in history and were inevitably used by various of my novice rowers and rowing coaches.
00:05:34
Speaker
But basically it's very much a case of this brutal drill sergeant doing what Tuvok spends much of the episode doing to recruit some questioning himself while he does. But unlike this sergeant, Tuvok actually questions himself and his methods, whereas the sergeant is just endlessly brutal. And Ratatouille is just a food-based drama. Or cartoon, Disney cartoon, film, movies. Ratatouille is on my list and I might watch it this winter.
00:06:03
Speaker
But thank you, Ching. And then I'll be more up to date on the references. Got to use references to connect with us, you know, trying to work out probably millennial audience, probably millennial. I am a millennial. Sorry, that is a reference that is previously unrelated. So like the last episode of our podcast, we kind of going to go through it slightly more structured and maybe more quicker or maybe longer.
Structured Episode Analysis
00:06:31
Speaker
We never know.
00:06:32
Speaker
But just talk about the teaser and then the five acts. Quite a lot happens, I think, in the last two acts. But in the teaser, we start, and Captain Janeway is enjoying a horror novel on the holodeck when it's interrupted by some, well, we'll find out later what's going on. But any comments about her horror novel or those little Henry and Beatrice Burley? Yes, Jenny. I have a comment. Actually, I have two comments. One's on the teaser.
00:07:01
Speaker
I think that little boy is fantastic. He's such a good actor. And he looks about three. He's so tiny. But his, like, very over entitled posh English Lord at age five is just brilliant. He's he's ingenious. But also I was my second comment was, are we going to do the what did everyone think of it? Did you like it? Yes, yes, yes. Sorry, Jenny. Take us back.
00:07:31
Speaker
Um, yes. So before we dive in, what did everyone think about it? Journey begin. Oh no, now I have to start. Okay. Well, I liked it. Um, I did find it quite sort of like eclectic episode, like lots of little tidbits sort of going on. You've got this sort of random thing at the start with Janio in the hallowed novel and some gothic mansion and then
00:07:59
Speaker
And then the hilarious cheese and the, you know, scientific sort of, you know, working out what's going on with the cheese, what the cheese has done through the infamous neural gel packs. Meanwhile, this black random...
00:08:18
Speaker
Oh, the cheese just looks disgusting. I mean, as a cheese lover as well. But also, what is with jacote? I mean, yeah, I mean, I guess we'll wait till we get there. But yeah, I enjoyed it though. I also enjoyed the whole like, I don't know if we're doing the themes yet, but the sort of learning curve. Yeah. But I'll show you that later. That's at the end. Okay, keep me on track. Once we watch the whole episode.
Character Behaviors and Culture Clash
00:08:44
Speaker
I mean, once we've discussed the whole episode. But yes, Jamie, what was your initial reaction?
00:08:50
Speaker
Oh, I loved every second of it, actually. I preferred it to Jitrel, actually. To me, it was a very Star Trek-y, Star Trek-y episode. It touched on deep themes, but with warmth, and it had moments of self-aware comedy with a certain wry twinkle in its eye about the fact that basically the two concurrent plot arcs were, one, a bunch of marquee,
00:09:20
Speaker
are basically giving two-volt lip and put through the Star Trek equivalent of full metal jacket training montage and once again Neelix wins the award for most competent professional aboard the Star Trek
00:09:37
Speaker
a vessel or Starfleet vessel by bringing on a cheese that threatens to destroy its entire power system arc as well. You mean something like you said competent there, did you mean incompetent? I said least competent. I know so I said most competent but I said it sarcastically. Okay. And you know it's better when I tell you that I'm using sarcasm because you know that makes it more funny like just like explaining the joke makes things funnier.
00:10:03
Speaker
I just want to make sure you either I heard the right word or you said the right word. Well, oddly, Neelix's incompetence doesn't, you know, make me hate him as much this episode, because like him, I too have been deceived by a cunning and evil cheese on many occasion. And so actually, I feel empathy with him. And I feel that maybe this is a bond from and through which Neelix and my relationship can grow, hopefully warmer.
00:10:33
Speaker
Very good. Instead of just bigger. I would hate it to grow bigger and colder because, you know, that would be bad. That would be bad. A bad for our podcast, I think. Oh, there's some background noise there. I'm sorry. Is that? Firing papers or something during this cold thing. Yes, that's happening. I don't think that's me. Oh, I don't know. It looked like you were moving your hand around. So I thought it was you, but then it stopped when you, I mean, it didn't stop when you stopped moving. Um,
00:11:02
Speaker
can be, Janie's headphones do, every time I touch something, they do make a bit of noise. Yeah, maybe it's me. Sorry to listeners, this is editing free. You will hear this. I enjoy almost every episode of Star Trek Voyager. But
00:11:22
Speaker
One thing you commented on on a previous episode when they also started with The Holiday Deck is that like, I realized how often they never go back to The Holiday Deck. And I went to the story.
Change Management and Leadership Styles
00:11:33
Speaker
I mean, obviously sometimes The Holiday Deck and the worlds there form a huge part, but I was like, oh, they did that again where they don't really turn to Janeway's horror novel. But yes, I think it was fun to see Tuvok and maybe out of his comfort zone.
00:11:50
Speaker
And really questioning his ability for some, you know, always experienced years of training, years of doing it. And there's a moment where he's very sincere, but we'll get there. Well, although I, yeah, anyway, I really love how he questions himself. Yes. We will, I'm sure discuss that in detail. Um, so yeah, we really kind of start, we've done the first half of the teaser. The first half is like, uh, in the horror novel where Jamie needs those very cute precocious children, slightly creepy as well.
00:12:18
Speaker
I also thought that the little Henry Burley, he reminded me of like a money Tom Paris. I don't know if that was just me. He reminds my sister of me. Well, yes, it was a bit shocking. He's like a little, I don't want to call it massage. Your lassen's rubbish, so you can't teach me anything. Five years old. Also, sister, mommy is dead, so, you know, you can't go and give her your sewing. I am loving this impersonation, by the way.
00:12:48
Speaker
But they like kind of abruptly disappear and there's a problem in the horror novel. And it turns out that someone's been doing some repairs. And so then the kind of next key scene I think in the teaser is Tuvok's investigating and he comes across this open panel. There's some repairs going on and Dolby comes out. He's one of the marquee members of the crew. And they kind of get into a bit of a conflict because they have different ways of approaching
00:13:15
Speaker
Because two bucks, like, did you notify anyone? Did you tell Belan? And the guy's like, no, I just saw a problem. And I decided to fix it. And, and I was like, and didn't really think about the consequences. But what did you guys think? No, I did see that. But he also sort of has the classic argument of anyone who's in an organization where they need to be coordinated with anyone of just
00:13:38
Speaker
it's okay that I didn't coordinate with anyone because I was acting and I was sorting something out and we got something from it. But there are secondary impacts to that, which you probably aren't aware of. And there's obviously a question of clashing. I'm not going to say professional cultures because that makes me sound like my day job, but there's a question of clashing
00:14:02
Speaker
ship cultures and how those interact and blend because you have the very sort of holistically focused Starfleet protocols aimed at
00:14:16
Speaker
ensuring that systems and crewmates interact for the good of the whole and get the best outcome because everything's acting in that way against the marquee approach of you see a problem, you fix it and getting the most from the whole by everyone acting proactively and agilely in a way not dissimilar to one known as submarine thinking as a sort of lean way of approaching problems. So it's very interesting from that perspective professionally.
00:14:45
Speaker
So I think in the next, in the act one, I actually made notes and one of my notes is this is the change management section. So I'm expecting a lot of input from you Jamie. And no one wants change management input from me about this sort of a thing. I'm ruining the magic red. The conversation has moved on.
Tuvok's Training Program
00:15:09
Speaker
Yes, Jenny. I do think though, there's a lot of, you know,
00:15:13
Speaker
note to HR kind of moments in this, though, not just the sort of change management and how to manage a team of students and how the teacher has to learn to, but also just, you know, the, oh, wow, the moment. Yeah, we were rapidly approaching this. So I think
00:15:33
Speaker
So the episode starts after the teaser in Jamie's Ready Room and they kind of discuss two things. One, the gel packs problem. It turns out this is actually pretty serious because they only have 47 backups and it would be a huge mission to go into some alternate circuitry. So I don't know if you want to... Yeah. I was just going to ask for those of our listeners who don't know what the gel packs are and might think these are just something like a soothing gel pack to explain what the gel packs are.
00:16:02
Speaker
I think we probably discussed it in the first episode, but if you want to just go ahead. I know, I really don't. I just wanted to try. I'm not going to describe it. I think it's like human electrical circuitry as opposed to, yeah. I would say a key component of the ship systems cannot function without them and leave it at that. Okay. Theoretically biological.
00:16:24
Speaker
Yeah, but then Tuvok also brings up Dolby's insubordination, as he calls it. I laugh because he said like, when you're talking about the confrontation, he was like, he lost control. And I was like, I'm not sure I would characterize that interaction quite so. It was just really rude to him and angry. I don't know if you guys agree, maybe. I mean, I normally agree with everything Tuvok says, so it's hard for me to say. I'm not sure. That did seem a bit, yeah, I wouldn't have said lost control. That did seem a bit
00:16:55
Speaker
I guess is more accurate. That seems more like a two book phrase. I didn't have a lot of two books language throughout this actually, because it was so Vulcan, I guess, it was like following things by the book, you know, it was, it was very clear. And very, this happened. And then this happened. And, you know, whereas you've got Chakoti by comparison when he's describing. So when two books describing the scenario to Janeway, and then
00:17:26
Speaker
And then Chakotay pipes in with his thoughts on this Dolby character. It's far more like, Oh, you know, yeah, he can be a bit aggressive. You know, it's, it's more informal, more human. Yeah. I didn't like the contrast there. More, even emotional. Cause I think he says, Oh, he's probably frustrated. Um, but, and they're kind of trying to figure out what to do. And obviously two workers pro some kind of.
00:17:51
Speaker
punishment. But Jamie proposes a training program to help them integrate into Starfleet operations. And Jamie, this is when I already with Tuvok in charge, because he has all the experience from Starfleet Academy. But also because he's the one who has something to prove to them. Yes, he has to earn their respect. But I mean, there were so many things she said, either I'm in Nutsov that I'm surprised that you're not bringing up unless you want to get there.
00:18:18
Speaker
I just felt that what this podcast really needed was less of an HR focused approach. There's loads of things there, like the assumption that it would be Starfleet who are telling them how to do it, the assumption that that's better, the assumption that, you know, they'd want to, the assumption it's okay just to go and tell them. But there is, you know, a valid point there in the, you know,
00:18:48
Speaker
Interfertilization of knowledge basis is a good thing, but the fact that it's all supposed to be one way is setting to lock up for a very, very difficult conversation and interaction. And that might be part of the intent. But I love them the whole.
00:19:06
Speaker
whole show them why we do things and team building, do what can teach, earn respect and there's a bit of mischief in her art, she says that. And I think Cathy Mulgrew plays it very well because you can interpret it as she's just absolutely lost the plot and it's just really keen about doing learning and team activities and thinking it's going to be great and she's like
00:19:31
Speaker
the Twinkle is incredibly naive, or it could be an incredibly knowing Twinkle of. This won't pan out the way that Two-Walk might think it will, but actually good things will still come. Did you think that this was always supposed to be a learning curve for Two-Walk as well? You think she had that intention? Oh, I don't know. I just don't know.
Cultural Integration Themes
00:19:54
Speaker
Yeah, maybe. I mean, she knows Two-Walk so well.
00:19:57
Speaker
That he's she knows that he's not going to be able to apply his usual. It's a development exercise. Yeah. That's what we're all involved. But I mean, when she said it's not fair to expect start big behavior of someone who never went to the academy. I was like.
00:20:14
Speaker
But does she say behaviour or performance? I'm a bit like there's some judginess in there as well of like, they can't live up to our standards because they weren't part of our special school. But like, if I was a McKee person and I do you see I'm not sure I'm getting slightly frustrated there. No, I took it entirely as a red ticket. It was defending them.
00:20:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's saying, you know, this is unfair of us to put our requirements on them. Social Morris. Okay. Yeah. Well, I find also funny about this episode, right? Is that actually, there's a later episode where Janeway goes through kind of the same thing with Starfleet people. Because and it's all boils down to you, I think, that in the some line in this episode where they say that on a normal ship,
00:21:05
Speaker
that there would always be a few people who don't make it through like their first year at the Academy, or they didn't make it through their first Starship mission. And then you know, they'd go on to other professions. But of course, that hasn't, that isn't possible in their scenario. So they have the same problem with, but this time with actually staffing.
00:21:25
Speaker
Yeah, and then she goes through a similar thing to this episode, what T-Valk's going through. It's quite like that, there's a little parallel between the two episodes. Sorry, I know I'm jumping ahead. No, no, I mean, that's jumping, you can jump ahead to any episode. But yes, Jamie, I did, I, we can't spend too long on this, because we haven't got very far. But I, I really thought there was some very classic change management, management phrases, which is like, need to bring them back at speed, show them the why, make them feel integrated, and feel part of the team. I was like,
00:21:54
Speaker
Well, once again, I'm learning business skills. Captain Jean, we have skills. Some people call it skills. I think.
00:22:13
Speaker
One thing I agree with is people generally are more like telling people something's changed and this is how it's going to go never works very well. Involving people and deciding the change I think definitely helps. Absolutely. Yeah. They always change in the wrong direction. Anyway, Karen. Yeah, we have to speed up a little bit, but we have the first change. Just telling us that this is going to change red isn't going to work.
00:22:37
Speaker
Tell us why. Why does this need to speed up? That we need to speed up because we need to get to bed soon. So I don't know if that's a why. I don't share your why or your burning platform. Honestly, Red, your ad car's all wrong. Oh gosh, you lost me there. So, okay, the next scene is the first training session in Cargo Bay. We have four crew members who kind of been nominated by two at Shokote because Jamie also asked him. So it wasn't just Dolby, I guess.
00:23:06
Speaker
Um, so I'll just mention who's there. Dolby, who's the guy who caused the issue in the first place. Garen, I think a young Bajoran. Um, Chell, a Bolian, the blue guy. Um, he's a wise guy. The blue. Yeah. And then they, I don't think they ever said her first name, but according to Voyager is Maria. And her surname is Henley. I only noticed that on the second time. Really? Cool. And she has a very festive headband. Yes.
00:23:36
Speaker
But it doesn't go very well. Do you want to discuss what happens? I mean, two looks starts off without giving them any sort of introductions to what the whole thing is and just walks down the line of them saying that dress is inappropriate. So in reverse order, Mariah has a festive headband.
00:23:58
Speaker
I think that might be a little bit later. Oh, sorry, I do beg your pardon. If I recall correctly, they start off with, why are we having to do this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chell says, what have I done? And he's told that he's disruptive and unreliable. And he keeps on, he keeps arguing and to the point where T-vox just says do 50 laps of the room. And then
00:24:22
Speaker
various of them interact in a way that isn't positive. So, Garen, for instance, won't look too lock in the eyes. Dolby says it's insulting and basically incites everyone to troop out, showing rank insubordination. And when he realizes that everyone else is doing this, Chell swaggers out after them, giving it a little bit of the big man shoulder swagger. Exactly. And I did think, I mean, only one line I remembered was when Mariah O'Himmy
00:24:51
Speaker
She's like, I don't think I have anything to learn from him, like talking about two Vulcan. I was like, ouch, that's, I would find that very difficult to hear. That's sort of a confident of a Vulcan who is probably about 600 years older than you. Yeah, but yeah, they don't stay. I love the way he tries to order them to stay. It doesn't work. Remain, remain where you are. So yeah, and Jenny, I think we get into the bit that you came to talk about. So in the mess hall, they kind of discussing like,
00:25:18
Speaker
they're ready to get away with this? And they're like, well, we'll just do our jobs, but they can't make us become like starfy people. And Jacote overhears and sits down to kind of hear their side of the story and respond accordingly. Yeah. Yeah. So what's your version of the story I've just heard? He was picking on Garrett.
00:25:37
Speaker
I think this whole scene really strange because like even from the start the way Jugote enters the room and then he just sort of nudges the Bolian and said he's not a physical one, he nudges at him and looks at him and the Bolian immediately gives up his chair and then Jugote takes the chair and he swings it round and
00:25:55
Speaker
sits on it like, you know, like he's invading all these personal spaces. He's got a beer in hand. Like, it's so I don't know. It's very strange. No, it's very, very muchistic. Thank you, Red. It's got this really like matches. Mo, if that's the word and like, sort of bravado. And it's quite sort of intimidating, but aggressive kind of. And
00:26:23
Speaker
you know so already you're thinking what what is going it's a bit like he's had a character transplant
00:26:30
Speaker
their explanation and him saying, right, so it sounds like you want to do it the marquee way and, and that, okay, we'll do it the marquee way. And of course, then he basically physically assaults him, lifts him up, punches him, threatens him, almost strangles him. And I just find this such the first time I watched this, I actually thought there was going to be some kind of storyline whereby the problem with the gel packs was something that actually infected the personalities of the crew.
00:26:56
Speaker
caused mood changes, you know, because they had some kind of infection and that there was something actually wrong with Chigote. And no, no, apparently that was a part of his character. Although I do find that particularly weird, that scene, because I know he has got that sort of streak of
00:27:19
Speaker
I don't want to say violence, that's too strong. Yeah, rebellious and he knows how to look after himself, that kind of thing. But I don't remember ever in the seven seasons being so shocked at his behaviours in that one. It does even now still seem very out of character to me. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't really have anything to add. I think you're 100% right. Jamie, what do you think?
00:27:41
Speaker
You can give us the male perspective. Oh, I have no insight into male machismo and physical dominance and assertiveness and alpha-ing and all that sort of stuff. But Jenny hits the nail on the head. He is quite aware when he enters the room that he's going to have to assert authority in the way that presumably he did when he was on a mocky ship. So all of the posturing and the majestic sort of
00:28:07
Speaker
chest puffing and physical assertiveness is a prelude to the fact that he's going to need to assert himself physically. And he's showing who is the alpha under a certain code of what alpha means in that environment. But I do sort of like the timing because he goes, so you want to, what you're saying is you want to do things to the marquee where you have to smack, he just punches top of the house and says, right.
00:28:35
Speaker
I think it was a left-handed punch. I was like, that was the main thing I noticed because it looks a bit... Is he left-handed? Or was that just like for the camera angle? Yeah, maybe just for the camera angle. But I was like, oh! I mean, I get the point he's trying to make. You know, I do agree. Obviously, like, if you're going to descend to, you know, everyone just does it the way they want and like, you know,
00:28:58
Speaker
There's a reason why they have rules, you know, and it's, you know, so that everyone can work collectively together and I slightly disagree there because I don't think he's doing it because I'm sorry, I just had something wrong. I don't think he's doing it to demonstrate the difference between
00:29:19
Speaker
Rules and lawlessness, but I think he is offering them a choice between two different sets of governing codes
00:29:30
Speaker
Because obviously the Starfleet one under which they're protesting against is the very one that protects them from the marquee code that he demonstrates effectively when he hits Dolby. And he gives them, effectively although they probably don't realise it at the time, a choice between
00:29:52
Speaker
the marquee code and the Starfleet code and by just avoiding the confrontation with him they opt for the Starfleet code, if that makes sense.
00:30:00
Speaker
Well, they do upload Starfleet code, and I guess that's a good point to move on. But I do think, I mean, like Jenny said, even just the moment he like takes that guy's chair, it's like, wait, what's happening? He's like, slotted into his like Starfleet. I mean, he did go to the Academy, right? Yeah, he's kind of thought that that, but he has this like, gentle demeanor. He's like, so respectful of everyone. And then so he's like, punching people. He's like, what's going on? But the only thing I can think of is, well, the thing that something reminded me was, I mean,
00:30:29
Speaker
If I think about how the Klingon ships are run, they are like run, kill me by electric spikes. I'm like, I guess maybe the Maquis ship was somewhere between Starfleet and.
00:30:41
Speaker
What was the name of that? I know, I'm just moving to get a charter at Doobegi Park. Production values through the roof here. It's a tightly run ship. You also can hear all the moving as well. There's lots of background. Do you know, Red, you remind me when you say that about the Klingon ships about there's an episode in one of the others, I guess, first generation or something where a wharf, the Klingon. Is it wharf? Yes, maybe.
00:31:08
Speaker
I think this is his character. There's some kind of like, and please forgive me, this is completely wrong season and wrong character, but he doesn't exchange, like, and the Klingons give one of their crew members to a Starfleet ship and vice versa. Do you remember that? And so it's that kind of thing where the, I think it's Wolfie goes on the
00:31:34
Speaker
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, I think so. This is ringing a bell. Yeah, but you know what, I think it's not Wolf, because Wolf would have known already what the culture is of a Klingon ship, understandably. It's one of the other ones. He has like a son as well who has to, anyway, we're getting a bit derailed. Anyway, yeah, yeah, let's move on. Yeah, so basically, as you said, Jamie, they're convinced to go under the Starfleet kind of conditions for now. And so in Act Two, it starts and they have turned up for their first proper training.
Training Montage Comparison
00:32:02
Speaker
This is where Tuvok does conduct some uniform inspections. I did love the way when he gets to Chell and finds the gold chain hidden under his top, with the way he says, what is this? I mean, I can't do a Tuvok impersonation, but his delivery is so good. And yeah, I don't know if you want to spend a lot of time on their uniform demeanors, misdemeanors, but basically they're told to report back in 1900 hours for their kind of first assignment.
00:32:30
Speaker
or first kind of intense training session. The next thing we see when engineering and Dolby is talking to Torres and he's like, oh, I'm not really sure why I want to do this training. And what did you think about her response to him? I loved it because she's both stating an obvious truth that part of their rebellion is due to insecurity as opposed to actual outrage, but she's also using that as
00:32:59
Speaker
what feels like a nod back to the marquee code of accepting all challenges, of using that to challenge them to pass the training. Yeah, I kind of actually forgot that she was former marquee until we just got to this point. But yeah, like, yeah, she's... That's why Dolby's winching to her. Yeah, no, exactly. It makes more sense. But she's like, well, you're just winching because you're afraid you can't do it. Very Klingon as well. We love that. Do you need anything to add?
00:33:28
Speaker
No, no, I enjoy the ballon of moments in this. Well, I'll have things to add to some of her other scenes later. Yeah, but I just love the fact that in the very next scene, she's the one who thinks to take a mechanical piece of equipment to the doctor and ask him to scan it. The doctor is trying to improve his sensitivity by not talking about scanning the gel pack in front of the gel pack.
00:33:58
Speaker
That was very funny. I mean, she has this genius brainwave to take the gel pack to the doctor because it has biological components like you discussed earlier. And yes, she asked something about the condition. I actually wrote down his line, but it was very funny. He's like, to discuss the patient's condition in front of the patient would be a serious breach of professional etiquette. He's like, don't worry, my little friend, which I mean, so ridiculous coming out of the doctor.
00:34:26
Speaker
Well, he might actually feel a kinship for it because it's one of the few mechanical or not, how shall I put this, organically alive things that is mechanical with whom he might feel a sense of kinship as, you know, he too is a piece of equipment. Hmm. I didn't consider that. That might be true. It's mostly funny to take the piss on the gel pack, I think. Yeah. But he figures out that there's an infection.
00:34:56
Speaker
And any medical knowledge to, I think the only thing I also noted on was that the crew is not in danger of getting the infection. Yeah, it was an interesting, it's an interesting one. I won't spoil it, but it's one of these ones that's a bit of a medical detective, medical detective episode again. So at first in this scene, they think, oh, the patient is sick, the gel pack has been infected with the bacteria.
00:35:23
Speaker
Um, and yeah, they double check that it obviously can't transfer to humans. So everyone at work, not humans, um, just, you know, crew members. Um, so everyone else is safe, but they have to, you know, put in standard, um, sort of protocols for, um, like isolating the infected, um, gel packs. And, um, they think that will solve it, but you know, there's more to it as we later find out. Yes. Um, and the final scene in this act is this, uh, two bucks rigorous.
00:35:50
Speaker
field training slash food camp slash montage. It's brilliant. It's like Rocky, the low budget sort of 90s version. So, but they did a 10 kilometer run, but also a warmup. So it was pretty, pretty challenging. So that warmup was through the Jeffrey's tubes. Did I get that right? Because I was like, wait, I'm probably going to run now. And they had those packs on. But yes, a little bit of water.
00:36:19
Speaker
montage of going up a jeffries tube down a jeffries tube and also the immortal line attach your packs guard against chiffage let's go i enjoyed that because it's very realistic if you're a runner like that's crucial you know
00:36:37
Speaker
work out where the chafing areas are going to be. I didn't even hear that. I don't know how. You didn't hear Tuvok showing concern about chafage. Yeah, almost passed around a jar of Vaseline. How do you know he didn't? I resent those slurs on Tuvok's athletic preparation. Oh, but yes, they get, I mean, it sounds like it looks like a very challenging. Well, for me watching on my couch, it looked pretty challenging.
00:37:04
Speaker
And it reminded me a bit of rowing training. And they kind of complete or they, well, some of them are completed when Tuvag reveals that he increased the gravity by 10%, which I thought was pretty unfair. But he says, you never know what to expect or you must be prepared. And then you kind of send two of them to complete because they've been wrapped, I think. And then tells them they're going to do it all again tomorrow and they're going to be better. So I was like, oh gosh. I will expect improvements in your performance level.
00:37:35
Speaker
Yes, exactly. He obviously hasn't learned about, you know, the value of proper recovery. Maybe two bucks don't get doms, because I don't know. He's red. He's a Vulcan. That's true. They probably don't get doms. Okay, we're getting to Act Three. Very good. In the transporter room, it's just a very minor scene, but I had to comment on it. What is Chell doing? Jamie, you laughing. Do you want to explain?
00:38:04
Speaker
Janie? No, I don't. I mean, I can, but I don't remember any of the technical terms. But all I can say is the equivalent of being told to scrub the toilet with the toothbrush. The whole process that's calculated by Tuvok's estimate to take 23.6 hours to complete degaussing the teleporter array.
00:38:26
Speaker
Yes. As you said, I mean, I also didn't write down all the technical details, but he's got to clean the tech, like the, he's busy cleaning the cars, but with what? Um, so some kind of, there's an alternative process that would take five minutes and he's got to take over a human day to do it. But he's quite good natured, um, this bullion. Um, but I also did love the way he said, missed it too much, the way there was something about the way he delivered, um, his mom, which was very, very good, very funny.
00:38:56
Speaker
Um, but yeah, so the next thing, we kind of have a major scene because the next scene we're on the holiday. And, um, void, two buckets repaired this like war games exercise or simulation where he hands over to this crew, this rag tag bunch and says, to get through this. Um, and you know, anything can happen and you know, you have to make decisions to deal with it. I have a question. Yeah.
00:39:21
Speaker
Who did you guys work out what they had done wrong before you got told? They all sound like they know what they're talking about. They could read the things on their things. I mean, that's not a very good explanation. And the Bojian cell when he was like,
00:39:39
Speaker
you know, when there was like that Ferengi ship that was sending her to stress school, he's like, they might be faking it. I'm like, these guys are good. Yeah, I think they were doing everything perfectly by the book, but I do think at the point where I think one of them was something that said something like, I think they knew that they basically weren't going to survive. They were like, let's just hurt them as much as we could. At least we'll go down guns blazing. Let's go down fighting. And I said, that probably isn't very stealthy. No, that is very true. Again, it's not going to pass me by.
00:40:09
Speaker
Yeah, so they basically all end up dead because two Romian warbirds de-cloak on Balsire or whatever. And they outgunned, I guess. I was making notes, so feel free to direct me. But I think the thing that gets the two book at the end of the scene is how
00:40:29
Speaker
straight and uncomprehending their rejection of his suggestion of what they should do is received. So he just can't understand why they don't see the logic of that. Also, I very much like the fact that they made a reference to the Star Trek trope of Kobayashi Maru by saying it's an unwinnable situation.
00:40:56
Speaker
Yes, I think, I mean, a couple of things actually not come up, but yes, I mean, he says to them, do you not consider retreat? And they act as if like, this is, I don't know, the worst part. That's what makes them are key so different to Starfleet and I guess in their eyes, superior, but you know, by two bucks, my being alive, superior.
00:41:16
Speaker
Well, yeah, he makes logical arguments of like, well, the least damage done and the few fewer lives lost is the, you know, outcome you're aiming for here. I do think he does this scene really well, because he's got this sort of like, confused
00:41:32
Speaker
questioning look on his face as to A, how can't you see the logic in that? And B, he has a great line, which I'm so terribly sorry, I don't remember exactly someone else better correct me, but it's something to do with repeating your mistakes. And you're doomed, if you do not learn from your mistakes, you're doomed to repeat them forever. And I mean, he makes a good argument, man. He's convinced me. It's a great line. He really does. And then I thought, I mean, I don't, yeah, I don't have anything to add, but
00:42:01
Speaker
I think it's Dolby. He's like, well, we're never going to be Starfleet, something like that. Like we're too different. And then he kind of storms up and everyone follows him. But my impression was at that point, not everyone is actually in agreement with him. Some of them, I thought the way they acted and walked out, they were like kind of disappointed. They had failed at this exercise and were like,
00:42:23
Speaker
you know, kind of pathway to this through this change exercise for want of a better way of putting it. But that's the way I saw it. Because he says something on the camera pans around, and then I don't think their faces are like in complete agreement. They're more like, maybe we shouldn't try it something else. Or maybe there's another way of it. Yeah. And then they kind of walk out. It's not like the first walk out where they're like, la la la stuff to you. Yeah, I think it's more more complex in this time. Yeah. So meeting
00:42:51
Speaker
in the middle later down the line, isn't there? Go on. No, I agree. And two walkers trying to inculcate the perspective lens of the highest gain to lowest cost approach to them. Yeah, which comes up again, I guess. Yeah.
Neelix's Insights and Tuvok's Growth
00:43:13
Speaker
Next, we have that really nice scene in the mess hall with Neweggs and the
00:43:18
Speaker
the AKA the morale officer. He takes his role as morale and two buck. What are your thoughts? Well, it's very exciting because this is the first scene with the entrance of the cheese.
00:43:34
Speaker
No, no, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, we missed, no, we missed the cheese. We missed the cheese. We missed the fact that actually, um, no, no, I mean, I mentioned cheese to Harry Kim in the Transporter Array earlier. It wasn't cheese. It was milk and he had scanned everything and it had all passed. So I just glossed over that, but it wasn't cheese at that point. So that's why I just,
00:44:02
Speaker
thought. So before we go to the cheese. How do we know that Tuvok's sad? Tell us, children. Tell us. Well, well, Neelik's knows his crew so well. He's like, you're not drinking tea. He's sitting on the wrong side of the table. This, that, that. And he's like, and he doesn't have a pad. He doesn't have a pad. Yes. He might be annoying to people like Eugenie, but he knows how to read people. I love this scene as well, Tuvok's. Obviously,
00:44:31
Speaker
he opens up a bit to need Linux and he's trying to work out how to reach his, you know, cadets, reaches students. I just love his pondering on it. And it's almost like a but but I'm doing everything right. I've done 20 years I've never failed at the Academy. And I followed a meticulous strict program and I set clear boundaries and correct things. And it's just and I just I so empathize. That's just what life is like is that you expect the
00:45:00
Speaker
humans to behave in a way that makes sense. And of course, no one really does. Yeah, I just I just love that scene. Yeah, I just love I think the line when he says, I'm not sure the problem I've taught thousands of cadets, and I've never once wavered from protocol and
00:45:18
Speaker
You sort of think you're teaching a group for whom wavering from protocol and rules and restrictions is everything, maybe that's the thing. And as Red points out quite adroitly, Neelix, for all that I have found him aggravating, does put his finger on the problem and demonstrates it to Tuvok, showing him some delightful kilo flowers, some of which have a stem which is beautifully flexible and can be bent lots.
00:45:43
Speaker
and others which are rigid and unflexible and snap when there's the slightest change in their situation. And Tuvok says he understands, and that Neelix is saying that the cadets are rigid and inflexible, and Tuvok, and Neelix has to gently tell him, no Tuvok, it's you who's rigid and inflexible, you need to get to know them. Try some grilled cheese from Schmidt,
00:46:09
Speaker
Yes, so I just have to say, sorry, I forget to raise my own hand. I just realized. I don't raise anyone else's. Well, yes. Oh, yes, as you're delivering those lines, Jamie, I think you should volunteer for some, I don't know what it's called, doorstop, because I went to call today, you know, where you can, like, sign up to be a part of a program that does reading with kids. You should definitely do it without having time for reading out loud.
00:46:38
Speaker
the way you deliver those lines. Anyway, very big tangent. And then, yes, I think, yeah, it was a very funny scene, as you just described. And then I think Neelix also says something like, you need to find out what they like inside. And Tuvok's like, I'm not sure I have the ability to find out what they are like inside. It seems very powerful that he can do that. And then, yes, there's some cheese, like discussion of cheese. And Tuvok has this brainwave, as they're discussing, the grilled cheese.
00:47:06
Speaker
he looks up to the ventilation system from the cheese, I guess. But yeah, I think Niex does a good job there of getting Tuvok to reconsider a few things. I've got to say, at that time, I fully agreed with Tuvok in
00:47:24
Speaker
not really believing in his ability to get them to open up and I was quite surprised at his hilarious attempts to do it later on with Dolby that they did actually result in some level of opening up.
00:47:41
Speaker
before we sort of skip ahead to that though do we we're glossing over some key development that happens in this scene in the mess hall which read I think you should take us through oh I'm not sure I think well the next act is act four and Janeway is getting Torres to investigate Neelix kitchen no it's too late
00:48:02
Speaker
What happens in between? I don't have anything in my notes, so remind me. I thought that actually they discovered that there was cheese when Tuvok sees that Neelix, yeah, Neelix tries to convince Tuvok to have some of his grilled cheese in the mess. Yeah, I said Tuvok gets a clue from the grilled cheese.
Crisis Origin and Humor
00:48:22
Speaker
I think Tuvok, Neelix is discussing how he made cheese for someone's macaroni cheese or something.
00:48:28
Speaker
Oh, sorry. You want to dwell on this because you hate cheese. Jamie doesn't eat macaroni cheese. I mean, that is mind-blowing. And also you have no reason not to eat macaroni cheese. Why are we taking advantage of my moment of vulnerability to mock me? I just think you're a bad friend.
00:48:49
Speaker
Well, if that's mocking, then you're a bad friend. Guys, you are torturing me here, but we're just not yet at the best line about the chance I'm dying. Go, go, go, go, go, go. I've got to say it, but yeah, I think obviously Tuvok in Act 4 has told Jamie his theory, so she has asked Taurus to investigate Neelix's kitchen, and it turns out the cheese is full of volatile bacterial spores, which is when Bolana delivers the immortal line,
00:49:26
Speaker
I think I only appreciated that line the second time I was watching because I don't know the first time I was trying to make this subreddit.
00:49:32
Speaker
And I was like, that is hilarious. I don't like that. I mean, yeah, it just works for so many things. I don't know if you know the whole thing from Brooklyn Nine-Nine, but you know, title of X is sex tape. I think it also works for that as well. Get the cheese to sex, not to sex pay, to sex pay. Get the cheese to sex pay, title of your sex tape. Ah, well, I love a Brooklyn Nine-Nine Star Trek crossover. It would be amazing.
00:49:59
Speaker
Yeah. Anyway, let's, let's crack on before we investigate or examine that metaphor too closely. Yeah. So I can see the, uh, the expression of horror on my wife's face. Oh, no, I just didn't get it. I feel like I'm missing. It sounds funny, which is 99% of the, uh, joke, I think. Well, for me anyway. Um, so yeah.
00:50:26
Speaker
Oh, sorry, I'm messing around with my iPad. So the next thing we get to is that scene that you just referred to, Jenny, which is Tuvok and Dolby in Sandrines. Yeah, it's a sort of weird place for a Vulcan and a Maki to try and bury the hatchet in a French hollow brothel, but, you know, let's go with that. Maybe there aren't many more social venues programmed into the holiday gift, but yeah, I think, I mean, I like the way, I mean, I didn't make too many notes,
00:50:55
Speaker
But, you know, I think at some point, Dolby's like, why are you doing this? So what is the point of this? And Tuvok's so straightforward. He's just like, well, I thought if we get to know each other, we might be able to get along. And he's not, he's not, you know, trying to manipulate anything. He's very transparent. But we find out a bit more about Dolby's history and past and I guess understand why he became a key. Yes, he's a very angry man. And, you know, he has a suitably horrifying history that
00:51:25
Speaker
explains that anger, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, so should I go into it red? He basically, actually, do you know what? I can't remember well enough. I think Jamie should do it. I'm sure you can remember it. You do it. He met someone he fell in love.
00:51:53
Speaker
you know, and well, he grew up in a very difficult environment. And then, but then he was very unhappy growing up. But then he became happy for a brief period when he met someone who fell in love with and then that was taking away from him because she was raped and had her skull crushed by three Cardassians. Yeah, pretty horrific. So he yeah, it's just like, I mean, this is why it's so good to get to know people because then you find out
00:52:22
Speaker
a little bit about, you know why? Everyone's been through something, it turns out. I mean, two bucks says, I can't beat your story. I just love the fact it's competitive about, you know, tales of various stories. Yeah, there's nothing you can share that could be quite the same. But two bucks also noticed that Dolby is very protective of Garen. So he's like, you know, are you friends with him? Are you close to him? And we find out that not really, but he just sees, they're both Bajoran and he sees like,
00:52:51
Speaker
his younger self, I think, in this younger Bajoran, so he's kind of protective, even though he's not very close. And then Dolby's like, you know, why is he in the group, again, being very protective? And then two of us said, well, he was nominated by Jokote, and we thought
00:53:08
Speaker
by having some goals, achieving them, everything, it would make him happier. So they actually put him into that group in the hopes of... Not really. It's just experience. How's it of experience? Yeah. I love, again, like, two-horse delivery there, where he sort of... It's as if he's saying his thought process out loud, and he says, but the process was meant to be a positive experience for everyone. And sort of as if he's...
00:53:35
Speaker
surprised and shocked to find out that it isn't, which is also kind of comic as well. Yeah, he's so good. And then after all this kind of
00:53:49
Speaker
What's the word? Revealing? Or this kind of sharing? It still doesn't end that well, because at the end, it probably still observes a few things and is like, I don't want to be your friend, but basically. And then we pan from that to a close up of the doctor's face, over a microscope, over the cheese, going, this is the most pernicious, infectious agent I've ever seen. How do you beat the cheese? That last one was me, but I know that it's not the doctor in this part. I was going to say, I didn't really say that.
00:54:17
Speaker
He does say about the pernicious cues. And that's why I think that's Jamie's favourite line because he completely understands.
00:54:30
Speaker
Evil cheese. Oh yes, I have to keep reminding myself that James literally has an evil deep within. And you can't argue with me on that, because it actually does. Deep into facts, and even the doctor realised. Jane, do you want to take us through the major medical breakthrough that Kes makes, I think, in this scene? No, I don't. I don't even want to imagine what she had to do to that cheese to get that breakthrough. It's me in a thrilling way.
00:54:56
Speaker
Yeah, so they can't understand why the treatment isn't working. You know, it's something like they're using antibacterial and you know, it's bacteria and it should be working. But they realize that, oh, it's actually because it's not the bacteria that's causing the tail pax to malfunction, it's that the bacteria that came from the cheese actually has its own virus within it.
00:55:21
Speaker
I don't remember reading that viruses can be in bacteria or something like that. So I just want to make sure she gets credit. Yes, yes, absolutely. Well done, Chris. And of course, then they know how to treat. Although I was a bit confused by the treatment for the virus. Because I thought, Oh, great. So you switched from, you know, antibiotics to antivirals. But no, they want to raise the temperature. Well, to emulate when humans, their temperature is raised when they have an infection.
00:55:50
Speaker
So yeah, we're not quite there yet. But I think I was also wondering that because I think then they decide to like bombard with antivirals. Now I'm thinking about it, maybe none of them work, which is why they need to do this heating up experiment shortly. Yeah, it's just weird though, because I always thought and I could be completely wrong about this, that it was your your fever wasn't it's a side effect of
00:56:16
Speaker
your body fighting off the virus. It's not actively helping to fight off the virus. So therefore raising the temperature wouldn't do anything. But I mean, I don't know. I just, it was a thought. I haven't. I think that the writers grew up with the same, whether it's scientific facts or old wives tales that a fever breaks the sickness. But yeah, I think at that point they just
00:56:43
Speaker
At that point, they're still planning on using antiviral treatments, but I'm guessing, I didn't make any notes. I don't know, Jamie, if you did, but they also run these experiments to heat it up and we'll get there. But yeah, so then we kind of flashed, well, we switched to seeing Tewak and his, I keep calling him ragtag bunch.
Crisis Resolution and Teamwork
00:57:05
Speaker
That seems a bit unfair. They're engaging in another activity in the cargo bay.
00:57:10
Speaker
But they are affected by some more functioning equipment, I guess, as some of these gel packs are figuring. So two acts like, okay, everyone back to your duty stations, obviously, there's something important we need to take care of. But they are trapped in the cargo bay. They can't open the doors. And on the bridge, Kim is reporting that the packs are starting to fail sequentially, which is very bad news.
00:57:33
Speaker
And they're losing systems faster than they can compensate with the backups. Basically, every main system on the grid is down. So I guess that explains why they couldn't open the door. And then it explains why we see Tubark on the team again. And they're trying to, I never know how to communicate with the bridge, and they can't. Communication is also down. So now they're trapped in the cargo bay, which doesn't seem too threatening at this point. But yeah, a bit annoying. Oops, sorry. That's what I've had.
00:58:02
Speaker
And so we, this takes us into the final act, act five, unless there's anything you wanted to add, but yes, on the bridge now Kim reports that life support is failing. So again, maybe they're also running out of time to test all these antivirals. I don't know Jenny, I'm just making it up. The doctor reports to the bridge to January that heating the gel packs is similar to inducing a fever to fight all the infections and has proven successful in his experiments, experiments, then
00:58:30
Speaker
He wants to cover Taurus's brilliant brainwave, brilliant engineering thinking. I don't really understand the science of it, though. Well, I can read what I typed out. No, I'm reading it. I'm reading it. I'm not asking you to read what you typed out. Goodness me, no. But I just... wouldn't I just do that? I just thought a ring of plasma was really explosive. Wouldn't that destroy the ship? Say that again. Sorry, Jamie.
00:58:59
Speaker
I sort of thought the plasma was like really explosive energized substance that like would destroy the ship but apparently you can throw it around the ship from the warp drive without killing everyone so apparently that works. I think to very very very simply put it they kind of turn the power of the warp core inwards as opposed to propelling them forwards.
00:59:26
Speaker
He's up the ship as heat will kill anything that's in one of the gel packs. Heat instead of speed. I mean, all energy is convertible, right, or something? Is that a thing? Back from high school physics.
00:59:40
Speaker
Yeah. So the plan is to heat up the ship, but without regard to anyone who might be trapped in a cargo bay, which takes us back to, yeah, to Buck and his marquee trainees. And, um, Oh yeah. So, Oh, I think I,
00:59:57
Speaker
Um, they kind of trying to take the temperature up more and more. So did anyone, I think we get to 360 Kelvin. Um, and at that point, just before that point, but on is like, I can go higher, but it's, I might blow out, blow out some conduits and January's like, go for it. Did anyone do over 360 Kelvin was in degrees Celsius? I trusted you. Oh, 87 degrees. Wow.
01:00:22
Speaker
That's really hot, yeah. Maybe I need to check that. That's really flaking. That's like 13 degrees of boiling. Yeah, you'd be in real trouble. Because the first temperature I got was... Because 87 degrees, like boiling is 100, right? And we currently live at 18 degrees. The body temperature is 37.
01:00:44
Speaker
Yeah, room temperature is 18. Let me just double. So, but zero is minus 273, but let me just... What? No, zero Kelvin is like a totally different thing to the scale that we're using. Generally. I know, but it's minus... Anyway, it is 86 degrees centigrade according to this conversion calculator on the internet, which is what I used. So that was...
01:01:05
Speaker
I've been in Egypt on the 40s. But yeah, sorry, let's go back to Tuvok and his team because things are going pretty badly for them in that locked in that sick thing. Yeah, they're trapped. Everything's failing. Isolation circuitry, everything. Yeah, the
01:01:30
Speaker
conduit explodes where they are. And that will soon turn toxic. Toxic gas, yeah, potentially toxic gas. So they're all trying to escape. I can't remember something happens to go on. What happens to go? Yeah, so I think the gas comes in, like, obviously, I can tell something's going wrong with ships, they start to panic. And again, to walk is very rational. It's like, I think we can surmise basically that
01:01:55
Speaker
Janeway is trying to do something to deal with the failing gel packs. You should trust her to get on with it. And he kind of assigns them tasks. Basically, I kind of perceive that as just trying to keep them calm. He's like, Garin, you go check the console. We're going to go check for Jeffrey's tube. He keeps them kind of active. Then all the gas starts kind of pouring in. I think they might have, by that point, it's not very clear why I missed it. Have found a Jeffrey's tube they can escape through? So when the gas is coming in, he's like, that's when he orders them all to
01:02:24
Speaker
leave but Garen has now gone off on his own to do that other task he was assigned and then we have this moment. Who's at the top of a gantry and there's an explosion close by knocking him out and Tuvok, as you say Red, bans the team members from going back for him which
01:02:45
Speaker
Dalby tries to defy and Tuvok effectively incapacitates him with an arm lock threatening to shatter his arm. If he goes back for him, forces him down the Jefferies tube and then while the three Marquis are making good their escape, Tuvok goes back to try and get Garen.
01:03:06
Speaker
And in fact, picks him up, starts getting him in clear, but then there's another explosion and Tuvok is knocked to the bottom of the ladder along with Gary. And then in this moment of tension, Jamie passes the baton. That's great. I just wrote down one line, which, you know, I've said this before, but Janeway's philosophy is to risk the many to save the few.
01:03:32
Speaker
Um, my personal opinion, so you may disagree, but in this scene, Tuvok states, I cannot risk using any more of you to save one man, which is a much more rational approach. I mean, that goes back to that argument he made in that simulation. Yeah. Why also like there is that what he actually does is kind of logical as well, I think, because he lies to them to get, he basically forces them to go so that he knows they're safe.
01:03:57
Speaker
And then he knows that he's the most likely to be able to save the other one due to, you know, Vulcan strength and blah, blah, blah. So in fact, he is saving as many as possible. It's still kind of logical. He's not letting them all go back for Garen. He's only laying one. It's minimizing exposure while still trying to rescue valuable resource. Yeah. And presumably, you know, the percentage likelihood of success is higher if he does it alone.
01:04:22
Speaker
Or, well, not if he does it alone, but if he does it compared to if say Dolby does it. So there's a little bit of logic still in there. Oh, yeah, I thought it was very, still very within operating procedures for Tuvark. Then we just have a kind of, so we see Tuvark have a kind of gasp for last breath. Then we find out from the doctor because he's reporting from sickbay that the healing has been a success or heating, sorry, the healing.
01:04:49
Speaker
Maybe getting their systems online. I just wrote, everyone looks very sweaty, even Kez and I. Kez especially looks like she's been stuck in a bath and then lifted out of it. I know, it's just priceless. Feels so good. The doctor seems very cool and calm by comparison being a hologram. Yeah, he's immune.
01:05:12
Speaker
But yes, and then the final moments, we go back to the cargo bay and we see the McKean crews trying to break in and force open the doors so they can go and rescue Tuvok and Garen, who are kind of unconscious and there. And then we have that kind of very... Touching moment. Yeah, team building scene. Touching scene to
Thematic Reflections and Conclusion
01:05:33
Speaker
wrap up. With Dolby summarising, after Chell forces the door open so that the three can get in to get them out.
01:05:39
Speaker
if Tuvok can learn to bend the rules to save one of them, they can learn to keep the rules. Yes, I really, I didn't, I mean, whoever wrote that line, I thought did very well, because it already summed up the whole episode. There's a symbiosis and a balance that's pleasing. Yeah. Jenny, what did you think? Yeah, I think I like that line more and more, like now, at the time, I didn't, I found it a bit cheesy. Yeah. I found it a bit cheesy. But I think, you know, hearing it from
01:06:09
Speaker
You guys saying it, it sounds better. It's over-delivered. Dolby sort of, it's too dramatic of all that shit. It should have been delivered grudgingly as opposed to, hell yeah, Skipper. Yeah, it was a bit too overly positive, upbeat, kind of, well, you know, we can do it for the moment. And if it had been a little bit more understated, I think it would have hit home actually a bit harder.
01:06:37
Speaker
But I'm not here to criticize the actors. I am. It's alright, Carole. I really like Albie, actually. So, anyway. Yeah. Well, that does take us very nicely into our themes, and then I'll stop here. So any themes you want to... Or any lessons or any broader topics you want to... Do not bring alien cheese onto a ship run by gel packs, which might potentially be vulnerable to the common cold.
01:07:06
Speaker
I would say that the learning curve is also for Neelix in that respect. Don't bring alien Jesus on board. And generally learning curves, I think, for everyone involved. Don't challenge Tuvok. Period. And don't challenge Chakoshay's authority to a marquee off. Sorry, Jamie, I just saw your post in the chat. Tuvokalin?
01:07:33
Speaker
Oh, that was when you were saying that T-Vox should have his own brand of Vaseline. Avoid Chafage, which again is another theme we can learn from this episode, right? Am I right? You're right. I will break that. I saw that before we stopped recording. And Jamie.
01:07:53
Speaker
For me, oh, I mean, we obviously know that deep learning to be gained from evasion of the foreign agent in this instance. You know, the need to integrate and blend cultures in successful teams in a way that maximizes the output of diversity of thought. And also the need to accept that learning happens in both directions and is a two way street.
01:08:23
Speaker
I'm just sort of vomiting off screen, don't worry. Yeah. I can't, when I was watching this, I mean, I know they are on a, a Starship, so there are rules that apply, but, um, there's something about becoming an adult. Well, I never really became an adult and realizing no one can read what to do. I mean, I still think that people can tell me what to do. Um, and there's something about, I dunno, there's something for me that ties into,
01:08:52
Speaker
I don't know, maybe this is a very dark theme, but I think since COVID, a lot of people have realized that, it's just my opinion, that they don't need to do what they're told to do. They can just ignore that. And I'm seeing that in a minor way, like at work, where back in the day, people would happily volunteer to like, I mean, maybe I'm going to get some, I don't know, very strong pushback if anyone was listening. But you know, we go to recruitment events and people would happily volunteer. They drink work hours. It's not a problem.
01:09:21
Speaker
now to get people to go is like so difficult because I mean, obviously I can't order them to go. And it's just like that, like obligation or doing things out of obligation is kind of like really coming to an end. So I, um, yeah, I just, for me, I made me think about society at the moment and what's happening in my opinion. I do agree with you. We do need to find ways,
01:09:48
Speaker
and new ways, especially in stronger ways of acting cohesively and in groups without reducing or destroying the individuality and the individual choice that people are more aware of. I think people realize there are no consequences for acting kind of averagely or badly. They're like, unless they're motivated to act well, intrinsically, there doesn't seem to be. Yeah, I think I agree. Although I think it's
01:10:17
Speaker
It's a shame that there, I would hope that there wouldn't need to be this, um, motivation coming from consequences, um, or even from an intrinsic, you know, need to be moral or do good. In fact, I think what, um, I get what you're saying, Red, and yeah, I agree that that seems to be increasingly common. Um, but I think what's lacking is the understanding of how that actually helps the individual. Because if you've got a community working together to do something and everyone's putting in their beer,
01:10:47
Speaker
how that is, that is selfish in a way for all of those people involved because in a good way, it will help the whole. I mean, I guess I'm sounding a bit like a board collective right now. Yeah, I think it's good that like, I mean, as I said, I do much less things out of obligation, like especially like social engagements and stuff. So I'm not running around, but I still feel obliged to do some things
01:11:13
Speaker
And I think, but yeah, that was just, I just thought I was like, I feel like maybe even further into the future, people will watch this and be like, why did they ever listen to him? Because we might have gone so far to the extreme, but that's just my, my. And that's sort of why I think there is a need to work out new ways of encouraging folk. And I don't like, you know, incentivize folk, encourage folk or make them understand the value of acting cohesively. What you incentivize.
01:11:43
Speaker
you get so I mean there's a difference between doing something immoral because you're obliged to do it and there's a difference between doing it for that and for doing it because you choose to do it and I think the problem at the moment is that for so long there has been a moral of or a model of
01:12:05
Speaker
effectively, people act as teams or as units or as big cohesives, because of that sense and feeling of powerful obligation. And in its removal, there's a need to work out how then we effectively come up with group action models, which are taken by choice and are that much stronger because of the fact they are chosen.
01:12:32
Speaker
But at the moment it feels like post COVID we're sort of mid transition to that. Does that make any sense? I'm not really talking about things that are considered moral. I just want to make that. No, no, no, I agree. I know. I'm just talking about like, you know, social cohesion things. Yeah. Just like things that, you know, like picking up your own litter that kind of, you know, like in the end, the idea is if you, if everyone does that, you know, it's beneficial to everyone. Yeah. Yeah. You know, lots of people do.
01:13:01
Speaker
Let's not even get started on this. This is basically the theme of the sitcom I'm writing. Aren't you star player? I'm not sure I'm ready to ask this. Is anyone really... Me neither. I did think about it before, I promise. I did too, and I was like, I'm sure I'll know by the end of this session. I think the cheese has come closer to doubting a new prototype Starfleet vessel than the whole of the Delta Quadrant.
01:13:29
Speaker
this series to date. So I think, I think that cheese is punching above its weight. So I hate it given the trauma it's caused me and how triggering I find this. I feel like I'm awarding an Oscar to my gracious foe, but I think we all know where this is going. I'm awarding Star Blair to the cheese. Very, that seems very appropriate. That's all I can say. Don't get me wrong, I feel like I'm eating splinters.
01:13:56
Speaker
I think I mean, the thing is, though, I did know before coming on to speak to you guys that I wanted to give special mention to though, not star player, but special mention to and that is the little boy at the start. I just think his hilarious, imperious lords don't you know who I am in this adorable little three year old is hilarious. But I think star player is gonna have to be too rock, because there was just some brilliant delivery of, you know, some of his lines and
01:14:26
Speaker
his home. I hate to say it because it's so cheesy, but his journey. I was gonna say, I think in this case, you're nominating him for his great, you know, I know he's often driven by the actor performance, but he did go on a journey. He was not aware enough to try something new and change. But I think he communicated that well as an actor as well. He
01:14:52
Speaker
you know, you could sort of almost, it was like you believed there was this internal dialogue and thought process going on, rather than just, you know, remembering the lines. I did like the way Bolana delivered some lines at some point when she was like, solutionizing, because she delivered it as if she was like,
01:15:13
Speaker
Um, what's the word, formulating a hypothesis on the spot? Like as if she was thinking about, it was like, I mean, it was like watching, like, I don't know. I thought that was really good. Yeah. She worked out that she's. No, I just thought, special mention because the way she was like, wow, I really believe she's an engineer. I mean, I love her character in general when she's like working things out. She's very believable. Oh yeah. Um, I think I'm going to give a star player to Kez.
01:15:42
Speaker
because she came up with the, wait, haven't I read? Because, you know, she's been on this journey of like discovering medicine, wanting to help the doctor and all that kind of stuff. And I was really annoyed when I was creating the summaries, chat GPT kept saying, the doctor figures out that blah, blah, blah, blah. It's Kez, you dumb machine. Just to make sure she gets the credit she deserves. You're a Kez fan, aren't you, Red? I have always liked Kez, I have to say. I know.
01:16:13
Speaker
That might be somehow controversial, I don't know. But yes, I like to. And yes, I mean, obviously I can always give it a two box. I'm just trying to think of, to spread the star player around. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think, anything to add before we quickly discuss next week?
01:16:34
Speaker
No. Not great episode. No, we're there. Great episode. Well, sorry, not next week, but the next time we will be starting with season two. Season two. And we'll split one and I believe that's called The 37s and Oh Yes, Oh Baby. I don't know how everyone feels about this episode, but this is when they land up on a part where
01:16:56
Speaker
There are eight frozen bodies from space, and one of them is Amelia Earhart. Oh yeah, I remember that song. Amelia who? Amelia Earhart, Gerhard?
01:17:06
Speaker
Okay. The woman, the female navigator pilot that disappeared? Am I getting that right? Obviously. Yes, I know. But why are you so unsurprised? I mean, I can understand why you're surprised that she's featuring her Star Trek. I am surprised that the first American female aviation would be found on a planet. Yes, that isn't Planet Earth. I am surprised, Red. What are you surprised about?
01:17:29
Speaker
It ties in very well to some theories, I guess, about alien abduction, if I'm remembering correctly, but we will get to that. But yes, it's very funny. And I'm sure we're going to have some strong feelings about that episode. As we always do. Can you pre-warn me if I'm going to be triggered by it? There's no cheese. It's not the same thing, Red, and you well know it, but OK. Well. Let's start. Rebuilding trust. Rebuilding trust. And on that note,
01:17:59
Speaker
Thank you, bye!