Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
We watch "State of Flux" (S1 Ep.11)
39 Plays2 years ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "State of Flux" in which Voyager answers a distress call from a Kazon-Nistrim ship, finding all but one of the crew dead in an explosion. Investigation reveals that the Kazon were experimenting with Federation technology acquired from a traitor on Voyager. Suspicion falls on Seska, who takes desperate actions to prove her innocence.
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
Recommended
Transcript
Jamie's Cycling Woes
00:00:00
Speaker
Jamie, why is your butt so sore? Well, I don't resent the fact that you've cut me off from actually explaining that to you in order that I have to expose my arse's problems to the entirety of our presumably at least 10 strong listenership. So my arse is sore.
00:00:20
Speaker
due to the fact that yesterday I cycled to Henley from Putney and I didn't really take much care of the route and adopted cycling a road bike over some basically very very rough and bumpy roads, paths, footpaths, things like that and that's making it quite uncomfortable to sit down.
00:00:43
Speaker
So as you said earlier, incentive to keep this slightly shorter and snappier than my normal podcasting experience. Although I have to say that this monologue has rather done the opposite of that. Well, you'll be pleased to know that I pay £14 a month so that we can go for more than one hour per episode.
00:01:05
Speaker
I don't know if you can see, but I'm basically sitting at a weird angle that basically avoids putting any pressure at all on my arse right now.
00:01:18
Speaker
When people have a butt lift, they have like a cushion. Anyway, things I learned in Miami or stay in Miami. That's what you learned in Miami. Okay.
Introduction to 'State of Flux' Review
00:01:27
Speaker
I'd really like to talk about stuff. A miracle expert. Can you please intervene here and explain what I'm talking about? What is an anal ring? This is a new news to me that they're for butt lifts. We're breaking new ground. And I thought I'd finished doing that yesterday, but. These are both things I have very limited slash no experience in. So maybe I should stop talking.
00:01:48
Speaker
Um, but yes, the fruits of your inexperience is better than the fruits of my experience from yesterday onwards and upwards. So, uh, Jamie, I guess we should say welcome back and Jenny to our any listeners. And this week we watching and, uh, reviewing state of flux season one, episode 11 by my number. Oh, thank you. Uh, not my Netflix numbering.
00:02:17
Speaker
Jamie, are you ready to give us your one minute slash never been one minute summary of the episode? Uh, mine. Okay.
Episode Summary and Trust Issues
00:02:26
Speaker
Um, I know this, this time I actually went into some detail on my notes, but I haven't really done it. Um, I think this one, my summary would presumably be don't trust Kardashians who claim to be Bajorans. Good summary.
00:02:47
Speaker
So we can dive right in. Especially if they run around there. Oh yes, that's a good point. They're Cardassians. Sorry, let me re-put that. Don't trust Cardassians who claim to be Bajorans as they try and seduce the deputy skipper. Yeah, we didn't mean to throw any shade, as I think young people used to say about two years ago, on the Cardassians, because like, Cardassians, because I don't know anything about them, but yes,
00:03:18
Speaker
We are talking about Cardassians. From Cardassia, which to be clear is a planet as opposed to, I don't know, some sort of theme village set up by the Kardashians in Hollywood.
00:03:30
Speaker
Okay, so shall we begin? Jamie, do you want to introduce us or how detailed are your notes?
Planetary Encounters and Neelix's Save
00:03:38
Speaker
I think it's a wonderful start to the episode. We start on a planetside vista of Chakotay and Carrie on a really rather idyllic looking planet with, I think his rank is Ensign Carrie.
00:03:57
Speaker
Lieutenant Carrie enthusing to Chakotay about this amazing apple looking fruit that he's found and I think it's quite cool because there's a little bit of a Snow White and the Seven Dwarves reference there about the fact he's enthusing about this apple only for Neelix in his first quote unquote Neelix not a liability moment in my opinion of the entire series
00:04:20
Speaker
to save Cercote and Kerry from death by telling them that this apple is in fact intensely poisonous. Telling Kerry and Cercote to never judge a fruit by its skin and presenting them as
00:04:36
Speaker
an optimal alternative to this poison apple fruit, something which frankly looks like it's been melted with a lighter, but I believe is a fruit called a Loyola, which... Hey, hey, hey, that looked like ginger to me. I mean, okay, a ginger root that's been melted with a lighter to me.
00:04:56
Speaker
which Neelix enthuses about as being the best source of nutrition in the sector. Chiquita takes one bite at this and tries to avoid vomiting it tastes so badly.
Shadowing Vessel and Evacuation
00:05:13
Speaker
No, no. At which point Neelix accuses the Starfleet officers of not knowing how to rough it and says that with a light, quote unquote, herbal broth, you wouldn't even notice the mildew on the liver. It doesn't sound very appetising. And I did like Chakotay's line after Neelix was like, ah, it's the number one sauce or something of vitamins and minerals. And he's like, I'd find the second best sauce acceptable if it tasted better, which I thought was a good line from Chakotay.
00:05:42
Speaker
I agree. But yeah, and we pan from that sort of moment of friendly camaraderie and Starfleet exploration of the galaxy to the bridge of the Voyager, where Paris informs Captain Janeway that he feels they're not alone and that he's picking up things that look like a reflection.
00:06:09
Speaker
Tuvok is then ordered to scan and says that he's picking up an ion trail at which stage the captain orders them to fire a pulse to see if they can find a reflection of the vehicle trailing them and they
00:06:24
Speaker
realise that they are in fact being trailed by a shadowing vessel, which proves the cue for the captain to... not radio, but to hail... hail Neelix and Chakotay and order them to gather their crew to start evacuation.
Missing Seska and Cave Search
00:06:45
Speaker
Chakotay somewhat grace... gratefully exceeds to this saying that it means he can stop trying to talk Neelix out of bloodworm Tatar.
00:06:54
Speaker
um i and then which sounds horrendous i just want to say oh i i think that's a little bit judgmental of you uh sister natalie
00:07:09
Speaker
Tada. But having fired, I think it was a photon burst and seen that the vehicle pursuing or not pursuing but shadowing them appear to be caisson. The captain orders the evacuation accelerated, but
00:07:26
Speaker
the crew then discover that Seska is missing. And when they try and ponder where someone might have been missed, they realise it's likely that she might be at a local set of caves which might be blocking her combage. Very good. Do you want to continue?
Shootout with Kazon
00:07:51
Speaker
Yeah, I would love to. So we then leap to a scene in which Chacochet is exploring the caves in which they presume Cesca to have been... I see a hand up, go for it. Ah yes, I was just thinking those caves looked pretty intimidating to me. I'm not sure I would have followed one
00:08:10
Speaker
last crew member in myself. Just going to put that out there. This is a Starfleet universe which doesn't have xenomorphs as malevolent as the alien universe inhabiting it. Ergo, it's fine. Jenny, yeah.
00:08:25
Speaker
just I wondered if it was standard policy for just one crew member to go look looking for a lost crew member. I would have thought it made more sense for him to take someone. Oh yeah. Maybe that's a... I mean we are we are talking about a crew whose health and safety model so far is questionable as for when a they took the biggest liability in the sector Neelix on an away mission.
00:08:50
Speaker
Be on landing and discovering that he'd found his way away from the actual landing part. He didn't take the opportunity to jettison and maroon him at the first opportunity. See when he put himself in a dangerous situation, then didn't take the opportunity to cut their losses and shoot him.
00:09:08
Speaker
Jamie, I just thought it was a wrap. No, you didn't have your hand up. I have the speaking spoon. I just think on the basis of this, we should assume that health and safety procedures for an away mission perhaps aren't as mature as one might have wanted. Red, your hand is up. You may speak. I agree with your overall point, but I think you said it yourself. For the interest of winning this argument.
00:09:32
Speaker
You're setting yourself up to be one of the most hated fans of Star Trek because I kept putting up pressure that people love knee legs and especially love the actor Ethan Phillips. So good luck with that. But yes. I didn't see your journey. I think.
00:09:52
Speaker
Jamie has said before, and I think he's doing it on purpose, Red, because he knows that Neelix is not half yours and mine's favourite character, even though I think he's a great actor. I think he's playing devil's advocate, so it's going to make you and I like Neelix more. Yeah, that's all that's happening.
Confronting Seska and Disciplinary Actions
00:10:11
Speaker
Exactly. Yes, Jamie. Just for people who didn't know me very well, I actually had to put my hand up to stop myself interrupting folk.
00:10:19
Speaker
It was a bit like one of those meerkat heads leaping up. I would say that you put me on this podcast to be the voice of someone who isn't a Holocaust Star Trek fan. And Ergo, I am the voice of the silent majority of humanity who...
00:10:34
Speaker
don't know anything whatsoever about this. So I'm just giving the neutrals opinion. I've seen your hand go up. I'm going to assume that that's going to try and somehow discredit my claim to speak for the sound of humanity who aren't Star Trek fans. But there is also an element of I go in somewhat harder on Neelix just to wind you guys up. Yes. And I don't want to I just want to say don't discredit the sound majority. That's all I want to say.
00:11:03
Speaker
But back to the scene. Back to the scene. That's a Green Day song. Yeah.
00:11:09
Speaker
But anyway, in response to Jenny's point of those, your point, sorry, about these are quite intimidating different caves. I mean, theoretically, yes. And there's like the sound of voices talking and laughing ever so slightly in the backdrop as we enter. But didn't you tell me they had like a standardized, excessive cave set for everything? So tell me how the standard cave is more intimidating than itself on any other occasion.
00:11:36
Speaker
Well, the good point. And when you said lovely vista, I laughed myself because it's probably like in a backlot in LA somewhere. I think it was more of the fact that it was, he entered the caves. That's fine. But he's probably going to lose signal because the whole theory of why they've lost someone is because she's in a cave and lost signal. But yeah, I understand I'm going after it. But then when he sees a case on and then carries on going at that point, I was like, wow, that's very brave.
00:12:01
Speaker
Well, does he see a cazon? Or does he just see cesca? No, he sees two cazon before. I thought he saw cesca first. He said, oh, OK. So tell me the chronology. Tell me the chronology. Well, he enters the cave. He hears some sounds according to you. Crazy. Sorry. Which I didn't pick up on, maybe because I was making notes. And then he definitely sees two beings pass, like, you know,
Federation Tech on Kazon Ship
00:12:27
Speaker
move across the screen. Maybe he doesn't know the cazon at that point.
00:12:31
Speaker
and they still kind of he decides to continue and that's when he nearly he confronts seska and they both really nearly like stun each other fire at each other although seska says thank the prophets when she realizes it's cicote but they're then discovered by the cazon with whom there is a brief but violent shootout during which the cazon are driven off
00:12:55
Speaker
But Chakotay's winged and Seska has to get him away to safety and to be teleported away to the Voyager. Yes, exactly. And the only thing I would add there is that when he finds her, he's like, what are you doing or something like that? I don't know. And she's like, I'm hunting for mushrooms for your favorite soup or something. So that's a hint, I guess, of things to come.
00:13:17
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And we, the next scene then begins with the captain entering a captain's log supplemental saying that Shikoshi is recovering. And we pan to an image of Shikoshi undergoing, not undergoing, but carrying out some stone carving, meditative activity in his courses.
00:13:37
Speaker
only for Cesca to enter these darkened quarters, bringing what appears to be a rather fancy dinner tray with a cover on top of it. It was very fancy and very un-modern. Yeah, yeah, very, very un-Starfleet. I wish we had some kind of
00:14:00
Speaker
Yes, exactly. And also what I find quite funny is that that kind of ties up with later, I don't know if you guys noticed this, but it really stood out that the very first caisson you hear speak in this episode
00:14:14
Speaker
has like an English noble lord's accent. I did not notice that, but that is because I have the problem of not being able to hear accents.
Janeway's Displeasure and Kazon Trap Warning
00:14:26
Speaker
So I will have to maybe go back. Um, but that is funny because yes, this, this serving dish was very aristocratic. Yeah. Yeah. I'd agree with that. Yeah.
00:14:42
Speaker
But yeah, Jamie, sorry to interrupt. Do you want to continue? No, I will happily continue. Although, Cesca joins him, basically saying that she'd bought him his favourite mushroom soup, which was the reason she gave in the caves for why she was there, looking for mushrooms for his favourite mushroom soup. And at which stage, a rather playful dialogue ensues between them, in which Cesca
00:15:12
Speaker
claims to have avoided Loyola Root by drawing Mr. Neelix away from his canteen with a marquee operation in which a number of marquee feigned a morale crisis. Neelix cheered them up singing folk songs at them for what one can only assume must have been at least 20 hours. And that during that time, she and a number of other marquee
00:15:41
Speaker
effectively stole food from the ship's food supplies, at which point Chakoshay's face changes like a stone, saying, are you telling me you've been involved in a criminal operation? And he effectively tears Cesca to pieces about this. Yeah, he's not impressed. He is not impressed.
00:16:01
Speaker
basically saying that she's involved in a criminal conspiracy and that he'll have to discipline everyone. I love the timing, sorry to talk about the timing of like when he's like, does Neelix know? And then at that point when Neelix like, hails to Cody to report the crime.
00:16:20
Speaker
it's it's almost then he's like uh and does does neelix know about this yet and she goes well the morale crisis uh finished minutes ago so i'd imagine he's getting back into uh into the courses now so i'd imagine he'd know now now at which point neelix goes
00:16:38
Speaker
cicote i need to report a criminal conspiracy i hope people have broken into the food stores and looted food from their own crewmates words to that effect and suggests that he'd be very happy to make recommendations for punishment do you think neelix was justified jamie
00:16:59
Speaker
Oh, well, now that's an interesting question. I mean, the presence of replicated technology on the ship sort of changes that question slightly, as effectively, why do you need to even have ship's food stores if you can replicate whatever food you want? Because they have to ration their energy, right?
00:17:21
Speaker
Exactly right, exactly right. So it is an interesting question. I would say that effectively theft from a ship's food source under any circumstances where there is scarcity, of course, it sounds like the sort of thing that should be dealt with. And one can understand Shikosh's next move of effectively saying that
00:17:45
Speaker
he is immediately going to sanction all of those who are involved as, a, necessary for ship morale, and b, also for the Intermarchy and Federation Starfleet officer relationships, as otherwise he'll be seen to be biased. And one can also understand his resentment of Cesca putting him in this position.
00:18:07
Speaker
Now, Seska interestingly tries to avoid sanction by effectively flirting with Shikote, coming up behind him, running her hands into his chest and saying, you couldn't do that to me after all, we've been through. Yes. What have they been through? Yeah, I mean, exactly so. And Shikote sort of takes a moment and then says, Seska, I think we both agree that this we agreed a long time ago that this wouldn't work. Yeah.
00:18:35
Speaker
which is a very, very strong sort of rebuff for Cesca's being quite seductive at this stage, and responds effectively saying, fair enough, but there aren't that many available mates here for you. And I've always wanted to pass that Harry Kim, again, works for that effect. She did.
00:18:55
Speaker
Something like, if you're
Meeting Maj Kala - Tense Negotiations
00:18:57
Speaker
not interested, I've had my eye on young Ensign Kim. Yeah. And one sort of wonders why Kim has her choice of someone to peak him. Well, as we discussed... There is a huge contra... Sorry, go for it.
00:19:13
Speaker
As we discussed, Harry Kim was nominated one of the sexiest men in the world at some point during this series. If anything, that would soften the blow. Yeah, that would soften the blow. Whereas I think it's actually he's picked to someone who will annoy Chakotay because of the fact he represents almost a polar opposite. Harry Kim is effectively
00:19:33
Speaker
the archetype of the new shiny idealistic Starfleet officer, whereas Chikote is this a man of more years and experience and seasoning and perhaps cynicism.
00:19:47
Speaker
and a marquee officer. So they represent different archetypes. So for Seska to use Harry, I think suggests that she's trying to peak him about, well, I'll go for someone who's as different to you as I possibly could. I do think, yeah, I think there's something about that age gap between Harry and Chakotay, which almost like diminishes maybe the relationship she had with Chakotay because
00:20:15
Speaker
she's going after Harry and might just be like, as a plaything. So was Jakote just a plaything? I mean, just that's what I'm thinking as you as well as well. Attacking him on a number of levels. I agree. As a waiter.
00:20:33
Speaker
almost like rile him up. Oh no, that's exactly what we're saying. A bit like, you know, if the genders are reversed and you know, an ex-husband, you know, goes and goes off with a young 22-year-old au pair or something. I'm just going to date our au pair now. This works in both directions. I think that's exactly what it's doing and I'm just describing it from the more
00:21:02
Speaker
traditionally storyline gender roles but I think it's like a reverse of that and it's an attempt to sort of rile him up and elicit a reaction.
00:21:18
Speaker
I've had my eye on young, Harry, on young Anson Campbell. She didn't have to say young. So yeah, thank you. You're 100% right. That's two. Also, I just have to point out one thing as well about that scene is that I love the fact that she goes, he's like, he didn't even know who just ate some soup, which his friend bought to him.
00:21:36
Speaker
But he's immediately like, I will be included in punishment. I will punish myself, including him. I love that. I do think that's the right thing to do is he's in a leadership position. I think that's just very decent. That was a very good point. And I wish that was adopted more widely.
00:22:04
Speaker
Yeah, especially in the UK at the moment. Yes, that's not, that's not got a huge tangent. But just say, you know what, I did wrong. And you should sanction me, whether I knew it or not, the end. Yeah, because you're in a position of responsibility and you should know and even if you did everything in your power to know and do something about it, it still has the responsibility has to stop somewhere. And those who take the leadership responsibility, that's with them. And do you think
00:22:32
Speaker
Do you think that's his core character, which I am tending to think, or do you think it's like the influence of the Starfleet training?
00:22:41
Speaker
of core character, core character, 100%. Like, Chikote is always coloured as a man of extremely high integrity. And I think they're almost making the point that integrity isn't synonymous with just a Starfleet officer badge in that we're having someone who is a marquee senior figure immediately reacting with the highest level of integrity.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yeah, but then she does, Cesca does go on about quite a lot about how he's changed, you know, which makes me think that yes, I do think he's already had that. No, only if you take Cesca as a reliable character witness, which she's clearly not. I think she's trying to do that, as she always does, manipulatively.
00:23:28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I do agree. I do wonder if there's a little bit of, he's always had that internal sort of moral system, it seems, but maybe it's been, I don't know, like refined a bit by being around the sort of very strict moral code of Starfleet. I don't know.
00:23:49
Speaker
I can't believe we're hearing this, the only people who still have a moral code in this universe. No, you're going to be the ones who are hated. That's the implication. No, I said he already had. Ferengi can't be good people. They can be funny people, but they can't be good people. I'm kidding. Sorry to distract us, but I think the next scene we're on a bridge and they're receiving a distress signal from
00:24:19
Speaker
A caisson ship, Jamie? That is absolutely correct. Lord Caisson of Shropshire.
00:24:30
Speaker
I don't think so. So anyway, they receive a shaky distress call on the bridge. A very, very garbled sounding caison who sounds as though they're on their last legs saying that they can barely keep the ship together. Caison seeming at death's door. And Neelix proving in my view, his likely membership of the Suella Bravo and anti-immigration partners.
00:24:57
Speaker
It's probably a trap, we shouldn't help them. They're one of the most violent species in the sector. No politics, no politics. Yeah, no politics. I thought you were going to say he was again proving his worth, in a sense. Well, by telling them that we shouldn't help them because, like, Kay's on a bastard. That's a bit harsh. Well, what did we learn at the end of the episode? That Kay's on our bastards.
00:25:24
Speaker
But based on his experience, he said it could be a trap. And the captain actually, again, takes the time to mollify him, saying that she takes his worries very seriously, but their moral code means that they must help if they can. But she does also do, you're right, she does take his warning seriously because she gets Harry Kim to
00:25:50
Speaker
assess the ship for actual real damage and time to scan for any other potential ships that could have inflicted the damage or could still be in the area. I think that was my understanding. So she takes this warning seriously.
00:26:01
Speaker
yeah she takes this warning seriously and you know they scan continuously and they take all sorts of precautions uh and then we jump to an image of some boots embedded in a wall on the caisson ship all that i have on my sheet of paper right here is i don't know if you can see boots
00:26:23
Speaker
I actually missed that because I was taking notes. But yes, in the end, Janeway wants to respond to the distress signal because that's the way. And she does say something about it could be a way of making friends, which I forgot at the end because it kind of ties in to the very last scene. But we'll get to that later. I agree. Yeah. So it's it's telling us a lot about who Janeway is and about the drivers, both moral and immoral and
00:26:53
Speaker
I think it's, it's a really, really insightful sort of scene about the balance of pragmatism with principle that goes into Captain Janeway. But anyway, we jumped to the Kazon ship where we saw all sorts of sort of grisly scenes. So an away team was themed to the ship.
00:27:12
Speaker
Exactly so. A waiting beam to the ship, finding caissons, melted into the walls, and dead everywhere. It's about as grim as it gets in the Starfleet universe where the Borg aren't involved.
00:27:26
Speaker
and effectively the team explore the ship and find that there's nucleonic radiation held on the far side of a force field around a console and they find one male caisson alive and surmise that the explosion came from a console which, looking at it on scanning,
00:27:49
Speaker
The residue has Neosaurian technology, which is Federation technology, but in a case on ship, which immediately starts to prompt questions amongst the team. It's very well done for getting that very technical Neosaurian detail. Neosaurian. Neosaurian technology.
00:28:07
Speaker
I was like, the console doesn't match. An eminent surmise. But effectively, they've been the caison survivor back to the ship, where the doctor finds that all of his cells have mutated and fused with inorganic matter. And in order to help him survive,
00:28:31
Speaker
they need to effectively transfuse literally every ounce of blood in his body to avoid him dying horrendously. Yes, I got the technical detail there. I think they have to do a parasite replacement. What's one of them? I don't know. That's just what they said.
00:28:49
Speaker
Interesting. But the looming question is, is there the possibility that there is federation technology on this caisson vessel? And yeah, you try to say something there. Sorry. Oh, well, I've moved on a bit, but I was just thinking about the piracy and I was like, what interesting word that isn't any
00:29:09
Speaker
biological thing. And I was like, maybe they're trying to imply it's kind of like a lymphocyte. So it's to do with the immune response, but then they made it slightly different because it's case on. So instead of a lymphocyte. And I guess that means like a, well, maybe more than a blood transfusion, maybe like a bit. Oh, no, no, I'm getting confused. Because there's actually a transfusion or a stem, you know, what's that thing that you have to get if you've got leaky, like, um,
00:29:38
Speaker
leukemia. That's the one. Yeah. Yeah. That America's Jenny. Could you just, I think maybe plug in your, um, make sure it's plugged in. It's a bit of sound background. Um, yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I should have moved position. I'll go back to original position. Um, but then we have what I called the walk and talk slash turbolift scene.
00:30:06
Speaker
at Jamie with Chakotay, Tuvok, and Janeway.
00:30:09
Speaker
Which is pretty. This is an interesting and dramatic scene because effectively the captain is being advised of the fact that they found this technology which seems to suggest Federation tech has been handed to the caisson on that vessel and might have been the cause of the explosion. Yes and I just want to comment on
00:30:38
Speaker
Uh, Janeway's response. I cannot mimic anyone, but the way she says like, what? She seems like really, yeah, it was very funny. I found that quite entertaining for some reason, but please continue.
00:30:52
Speaker
Not at all, I agree. The captain for the first time shows sort of dread and anger to a crew member rather than control, as in her response to Tuvok telling her that he could only think of three possibilities for how this had happened.
00:31:10
Speaker
The first that it wasn't Federation technology, which... But similar. But similar that someone else had developed. The second was that somehow another Federation starship had found its way there to the Delta Quadrant and had shared the technology. Or the third that someone from the ship
00:31:32
Speaker
had actually shared the technology with the Kazon. I can hear some weird background noise. Could be the plane going past. Yeah, it sounded like that. Sorry, everyone. But the captain turns and says, I don't like option three at all. I loved your impression there because I wrote down that line and I was like, who is going to do the impression? And the only thing I would add is,
00:32:00
Speaker
Obviously, when she finds out that this technology exists on the K-7 ship, the first thing she asks is, like, can we transport it back to Voyager? And it is a blocker because due to the nucleonic radiation, for some reason, they can't. There is a force field that's blocked it in. So that sets up some action later on, I guess. But, yes. I think that's quite a jump. I thought that was quite a jump to, Rook made that third option.
00:32:26
Speaker
Well no, because it's Federation technology. At the time, based on the evidence, I thought that it seems so unlikely because how on earth, how and when and why would someone from that group be given technology to the case? And obviously we find out later, but at the time I was thinking that's one hell of a thing to deduce as one of the logical options. Well I guess he's not clouded by
00:32:55
Speaker
He's not thinking like when or how or no one would do that. Which one he thinks is the probable one. He's just thinking possible possible. He's just thinking, well, that is a way that they would get the technology.
00:33:05
Speaker
That's what makes him too fuck. What are the logical ways in which Federation technology could end up on a caisson ship in this sector? One, there's another Federation ship from which they got it. Two, it came from us. Three, another, which is effectively him saying that, oh, actually someone else has developed similar technology and that's all it is.
00:33:25
Speaker
Yeah, well, I guess I could just sort of more other options that are more likely. Like, for example, they have people who come on board, don't they? Not caissons, but someone could have stolen it and then sold it to the caisson. That's a good option. So it came from the ship via theft. Yeah, it came from the ship via theft. I was more likely if I was in, I think. Anyway, I was just curious. I think writers are obsessed with three, so they were never going to give more than three options.
00:33:50
Speaker
It would have got a bit boring if we listed every single option. It's like at option 7, at option 9 and option 10. Option 24. There is a magical, you know, yeah, I mean, you could go on and on, couldn't you?
00:34:04
Speaker
I don't know, it seemed pretty logical when 2Vox had it, but anyhow... But you're right, that is actually a very obvious potential option, Janie. And in response, the captain orders a sensor, effectively a review of the transmission log, to try and find out
00:34:27
Speaker
who might have communication with someone, and likewise they ask the question, well, who might
00:34:36
Speaker
have made contact with the cazon and given them something when they were on the planet yeah exactly right and they say well there are 12 people seska was in the cave with the cazon in spite of the fact it looked like a gunfight so the finger of suspicion points
Chakotay's Relationship Doubts and Seska's Blood Revelation
00:34:53
Speaker
seska's direction for the first time this episode a bunch of kotei springs to her defense but tubaka's like you should be careful
00:35:06
Speaker
Yeah, that is a bit suspicious. I agree. But yeah, they then...
00:35:14
Speaker
moved to a scene in engineering where there is a discussion of how to get access to the piece of technology that exploded and destroyed the Kazon ship. A number of options are mooted, the first of them being very risky but suggesting that someone acts like a hero with Cesca, putting her hand up immediately to say we should take this risky option
00:35:40
Speaker
But in a way that seems a little bit out of character and a little bit suspicious, almost as though she wants to push them to take a risky option that puts the opportunity of finding evidence at risk in case they destroy the console in question, but also allowing her to be the one that covers herself in glory, bringing the technology back, which is quite interesting, frankly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
00:36:08
Speaker
My notes aren't that detailed on that scene, but I think they eventually agree. Lieutenant Kerry comes up with a plan, but it will take, it's not as like... It's not as quick and direct as Cesca's, yeah. So they need a day. I did like this scene, Jenny, maybe again, this is, oh, Jamie, I'm sure you'll have some corporate HR perspective on this, but when Jamie is like, when Belanna's like, I can have it ready tomorrow, and Jamie's like, no, I need it to deceive it, or whatever. And Belanna's like, no, when I say tomorrow, I mean tomorrow, because I don't exaggerate. And Jamie's like, okay.
00:36:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. But it's done in a non-confrontational fashion of just, no, my original estimate was an honest opinion, this is the best that can be done. And when it is positioned to the captain in that way,
00:36:55
Speaker
It's actually, I find it really cool because she responds with, I understand and I accept this and now this has changed the boundaries and parameters of our relationship and I'll trust you, you should give me your best effort first answer. And I think from then on, the captain sort of does less, I'd like it 70% faster sort of statements in Bolana Torres's direction, which I really like.
00:37:22
Speaker
Um, yeah, I mean, there's a whole other main story going on, but this, even that little moment does just kind of, it's another little insight into their developing relationship.
00:37:33
Speaker
But also simultaneously in this, Shikote says that during the entire operation, he wants Seska on the bridge. And then when Seska... To go back one minute, I think, is that Belan obviously starts taking charge to get ready, get this... So you can start giving orders and assign something to Seska and then Shikote intervenes and says, yeah, he wants her on the bridge, which is obviously...
00:38:04
Speaker
relates back to the fact that I guess they want to try keeping an eye on her or what do you think? Well I mean it seemed to Seska by her reaction that this made everyone think
00:38:18
Speaker
would make everyone think that she was a suspect, to which as Chiquote comes back with a rejoinder, you don't put someone you don't trust on the bridge, which is true, but also neatly carries out two functions for Chiquote of keeping Seska on side
00:38:37
Speaker
from the perspective of perceiving herself as trusted, but also simultaneously complying with Tuvok's suggestion that he keeps Seska separate from the investigation on the basis that logically, to quote the Volcanism, she is potentially a source of hazard and a potential suspect. I was going to ask, what point do you guys think, Chakotay,
00:39:05
Speaker
actually begins to think it might be her. Because it's almost like really early on, he's doing things that could be construed either way. And that kind of builds and continues throughout the episode. And I just think maybe right from really at the start, he was already thinking, right, if it's her, how can I, you know, protect myself? Well, not himself, but the situation. I wonder if this question looking back, I was, you know,
00:39:33
Speaker
And my initial thought was I always not until the end when they, you know, set up a twist. But looking back, I think, oh, maybe it was like right from the start he was. As soon as she became a suspect, he was considering her as a suspect. I don't I don't know. I see it. Yeah, I don't think he genuinely consider it. But I think he's like wise enough to know that. It's a logical possibility. It's a possibility. Yeah. But I think he desperately hopes it's
00:40:03
Speaker
Thank you, Truck. Sorry. Not going to be the case. I mean, because he still defends her, I think, a couple more times. But yeah, I'm not sure, actually. Hmm. It's done quite well, I think. Yeah. The delivery make it so you don't quite know when he maybe that's to reflect the fact that he doesn't know. As you say, he's he's he bears it in mind.
00:40:33
Speaker
it knows it's a logical possibility but... And also in that scene he does kind of say there are concerns about you to Cesca so he kind of I think another way of seeing it is like he's removing her from that action to protect her from any further suspicion because if she's not involved and has can't like amend anything or plant any evidence whatever then she'll if she's not involved she'll be
00:41:02
Speaker
Yeah, it works. Yeah, it helps both situations, basically. It's a very dense piece of resource management. Yeah. Yeah. But also, I mean, I'm kind of thinking he must have been manipulated by her so many times if he was in a relationship with her. So that might also be playing on his mind. But that's, that's from a lot of backstory that I'm adding, not that anything we've actually seen. So
00:41:29
Speaker
I mean, the whole trying to get him to let her off for getting him mushroom soup suggested worlds about her character in a relationship. She's not necessarily a rule follower.
00:41:41
Speaker
Um, but yeah, so I think the next scene we're in sick bay. Yeah. Where Cesca comes to very caring, you check on the patient and seems to be very interested in whether the patient will ever wake up and very, you know, very concerned about the outcome of this patient waking up. And she, she, purely because, you know, that person will prove her innocence.
00:42:08
Speaker
Yes, that's what pain is. That's the reason. No one actually said anything about her being guilty or innocent. She just said she wanted him to wake up to prove her innocence and the doctor and Kezza, like, there's a little bit of a, what would you be guilty of, sort of a vibe to them. It's a bit like, oh, right. Yeah. No, I mean, I'm not guilty of anything, obviously.
00:42:36
Speaker
But then- But they will also find out that even if he becomes conscious again, he might be so injured he has brain damage. So there's no guarantees there. But yes, Jamie. Yeah. And she leaves. Seska is asked by Kes if she would provide some blood as they're screening the career for suitable blood donors. To which Seska says, oh no, I never did. I had a virus when I was a child that meant that I can't do that.
00:43:05
Speaker
and to which the doctor responds all the more reason to have your blood on record so we can have it managed to which one can imagine seska stamping her foot sorry jenna so your hand go up no no i'm done i was gonna um offer to summarize that section because for once i actually remembered a scene but you've done it so well so continue
00:43:26
Speaker
That's terrifying. I can't live up to any sort of previous record of competence. And Seska, again, ducks saying, oh yeah, I'll do it as and when. Which is interesting, I find, and also sort of questionable that she doesn't want people analyzing her blood.
00:43:50
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I remember the first time I saw this scene and this episode and I was like, what? I was like, this is a whole, there's a whole new story thread going on here that is curious. And I couldn't see how it would fit in and relate. I was like, what is her blood type got to do with anything?
00:44:05
Speaker
It's a very good point because where we come from, I don't want to give anything away, but what she's done is not possible. I would not have even thought of that the other first time I watched. I love the way it all links in at the end, but I remember at the time I was like, where is this going?
00:44:26
Speaker
Agreed. Agreed. Yeah, so we moved from there to the bridge where it's announced that another caisson ship is coming. I think we might have skipped a little section. Oh, have we? Have we? I beg your pardon. I'm not sure where they were, because I think I said online, because I couldn't see, but it was Jakote, Janeway, and Tewak, and they're having a little huddle again, sharing their undercover operation.
00:44:54
Speaker
Oh, yes. It confirms that someone has made an unauthorized transmission. But it's been masked very well because they did it during some engineering tests the previous week. So it's very hard to trace it back. And basically means it could be anyone in the engineering team. But they don't know who at this stage. This unauthorized transmission is very hard to trace. But then you're right, Tom Hales.
00:45:23
Speaker
captain from the bridge and request that she come to the bridge straight away because another caisson ship is, I guess, approaching. Interesting. Yeah, I agree with that. And how's that? Good, because that's what happened.
00:45:40
Speaker
yeah sorry but if we want to move to the bridge i mean that was just like a little scene i don't know if you wanted no i'm losing the plot i i don't have it it must it must be the arse pain sort of messing with my concentration yes as we find that out another caisson ship approaches and we're also advised that
00:46:03
Speaker
Cesca has left from transporter room too. Yes. So this case on ship, sorry, just to quickly follow the detail is actually only going to arrive in about four hours. And Tom is like, should we let them know that we're here? And James is like, well, if we know they're approaching, they probably know we're here and we don't have any good news for them. I wasn't quite sure what that, yeah, but yes, that's kind of why, um, uh, and then you're right. We had, we find out about an unauthorized transport from Kim.
00:46:31
Speaker
And do you want to pick up, Jamie? No, no, no. You carry on. I think it's time to hand the baton over as my grip on general direction rather than detail appears to be flagging. But the transporter room I gather is Seska leaving to go to the Quezon ship that was basically irradiated. She then walks into the radiation field and attempts to retrieve the console.
00:47:02
Speaker
the captain, and she advises Chakoti and the captain over the combat. That is what she's doing. They then hear a scream. Oh, wait, wait, wait. Sorry, there was a scene I really liked before that, in between note taking, where
00:47:17
Speaker
way back on the bridge. And Janeway is kind of getting all this information from two bucks to Kote Kim and two bucks like she could be destroying evidence to Kote is like she just wants to like clear her name. Kim is like, I've got a lock on her. Do you want me to beam it back? And she's like, you kind of I think it kind of like pans a little bit around where we see her like, you know, just close up and she's like, got to make this like snap decision. So it was good, like, captain moment maybe. And she's like, wait, if we can't beam it back, because she's busy messing around with sub space, something will kill her.
00:47:47
Speaker
So she manages to make that snap decision, which I think was correct, but then we hear a scream anyway. So Jamie, what happens then?
00:47:56
Speaker
No, you're quite right. The Captain orders Cesca immediately transported to sickbay, where she basically is visited by Chikote and turns over and appears to have what appears to be the most severe case of sunburn from the radiation.
00:48:18
Speaker
Which is a little bit of a case of, I think, Star Trek underplaying the injuries the characters receive in execution of their duty, because radiation burns a quite severe thing, and where it's appeared to happen to Cesca is quite minor. If it's a child's story, it's sort of like a kid's release.
00:48:37
Speaker
And it wasn't a criticism on my part, it wasn't a criticism. I love the sunburn look. But yeah, we moved from there to...
00:48:50
Speaker
Yeah, where Lieutenant Kerry is escorted into the room to be interrogated. And effectively, first of all, he is attacked from the, or not attacked, but interrogated from the perspective of how has he dealt with Bolana Torres being promoted above him?
00:49:13
Speaker
and it being suggested to him that he must have had a problem with that and before I crack on red, go for it.
00:49:21
Speaker
Yeah, not to give anything more about the scene, but actually, this is a good example of where these episodic episodes actually tie back to things that have happened in the past. Because I think last time we met, we were like, are they just completely disregarded something that had happened and moved on. But this is a nice tie in to the previous kind of episodes. Sorry, I just thought of that. In which Balaanatoras beats Lyta and Kerry. I agree. I especially love the way he like explains himself as well. And he says, since that time,
00:49:50
Speaker
You know, I've worked really hard to prove myself a valuable member of the team. You know, I accepted that this person was promoted above me and I've just done the best job I can. And it's nice, isn't it? Exactly. Well, you say, oh, I wish that happened in the corporate world. Yeah, he behaved like a grownup. Well done. Well done. God start. Yeah. Sorry, go on, Jamie.
00:50:13
Speaker
Not at all. You're both absolutely correct. And then it is put to him that he was out of contact for an hour. And this is made to look suspicious as well. And Kerry responds, he spent that hour picking apples, which proved to be poisonous.
00:50:39
Speaker
Which is questionable, but at the end, the captain, Chakotin Tuvok, decided to combine Lieutenant Kerry in cautious for the time being. Yeah, because there is another bit of evidence, I think, that we've skipped a little bit. An authorised transmission that Tuvok found came from his station in engineering.
00:51:00
Speaker
during the test for, you know, the previous week. And so they were like, you can't really confirm when he was at his station at that time or not, or if anyone else was in the station. He's like, yeah, it's a test. I don't remember. And then he does kind of like deflect attention back to Cisco because it's like, well, why aren't you
00:51:20
Speaker
You know, Jamie's like, why Cisco? He's like, well, everyone knows that she was, uh, in the Cape with the case on, which seems to peak Janeway.
00:51:32
Speaker
And he seems to think better of it, doesn't he? Yes, he does. Yeah, it seems quite realistic. I think that's what you'd be like at first. You'd panic when you freak out. Oh my God, they're accusing me and you might immediately react defensively by accusing someone else. And then, you know, maybe your grown up voice comes in and says, okay, well, you know, there's no point accusing others. The main thing here is just trying to prove that it's not me because, you know, he doesn't know it's there.
00:52:01
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I think he says something like, he does retract exactly as you say. He's like, I'm not saying she did, but I didn't do it either. So it's like, you know, I don't know what's going on. Agreed. Agreed. We need respect for Kerry in this. That's true. Very true.
00:52:19
Speaker
Yep, yep, it's all happening, it's all happening. Sorry Jamie, I feel like we keep ruining your flow. No, I'm enjoying it because I sort of leap a stage ahead and you guys bring me back to actually what's happening sequentially. Jamie, just to mention, if Jamie wants to have his own Star Trek podcast, he can, we don't have to say anything.
00:52:44
Speaker
So we are allowed to contribute. I'm not saying you think there's a problem. Janie, apologize for saying something.
00:52:53
Speaker
And I frankly would apologise to in her shoes.
Replicator Tech Mishap
00:52:57
Speaker
I think, you know, it's probably the butt thing, right? But you seem to be, you know, more distracted than usual when I crop in with my little interjections. So that's why. We love to hear from you, Jenny. So I likewise need to hear more of your voice. It's just that at the moment I'm not sitting pretty.
00:53:18
Speaker
I think we're nearly there, Jamie. I can't remember how many pages. But yet, as you were saying, he was dismissed. I think we nailed it. And I was just a bit like, I really hope not. No, you were saying he is dismissed and he's got to be confined to quarters. So do you want to pick up on that? Well, I think at this stage,
00:53:39
Speaker
Voyager is hailed by the Kaison vessel, which appears to be led by Carla, the first marge, which is a very grand certainly title. I was so confused then, because it sounded like Carla. Yeah. I can't. Yeah. I initially heard Carla. Carla.
00:54:01
Speaker
you know Tiffany who is greeted cordially by the captain and informs the captain that I will beam aboard to inspect the injured caisson you have well it doesn't start off very well because one of the first things he says is like what have you done with our ship and she's like just explain your ship sent us a distress signal we went to investigate we found a survivor
00:54:27
Speaker
And then he's like, yes, he insisted he come aboard and speak to the survivor. You will prepare for my arrival. And then Tom, a little line friendly.
00:54:39
Speaker
friendly swords or something like that, he says. Well, I thought it was going to come out with presumptuous much. Because, like, I mean, one has to imagine this cazon vessel wouldn't do very well in a one on one punch up with Voyager. And yet he's ordering these folk around, basically telling them what they will do. There's a large degree of arrogance there, which one wonders how it's how it's worked for him previously.
00:55:08
Speaker
Well, Janie, as Janie said, she he reminds her of an aristocratic lord, so probably quite well. Is it the same guy, though, this that was first? Oh, yeah, no, this is the first time we meet this guy. Yeah, because this guy didn't sound very lord like. That's just that first case on that was in trouble. Yeah, I mean, I guess that fake arrogance
00:55:36
Speaker
I kind of ties in a bit with their culture because they're sort of supposed to have this really like tribal, quite primitive, I guess, for humans kind of culture, which you see a lot in animals where the display, you know, who's got the biggest antlers who displays the reddest bum who has the most colorful feathers and is on the display.
00:56:03
Speaker
Who has the hair that looks the most like a coral reef? Yes, exactly, with the most random bits of items in it. Yeah. So maybe this is all like, this is what the natural tendencies are to have this fake bravado, even though their ship is a natural for Voyager. So, you know, I see some rationale there for that.
00:56:25
Speaker
I guess they're like little warlords. I mean, I'm thinking a bit, sorry, I'm reflecting on current events. And yeah, I think you're on to something there, Jen. Yeah, yeah, I'd agree with that. But yeah, I've quite lost sort of my place. Okay, so the next scene, we're back in sick bay, and Janeway arrives with Majkala, whatever it was, Majkala, and another Kazon who,
00:56:54
Speaker
Doesn't say anything, I think. And to buck and the doctor's like, oh, it's just about to update you on the condition or what's called you or something. And the survivor. I remember this scene. I'll go for it. We're noticing a trend. You should cover all the medical scenes.
00:57:12
Speaker
You have a mental background. How weird is it that my brain just automatically remembers the medical scene? Oh, that's just interesting. I guess it does make sense because my background, but it's bizarre. Anyway, yes. So the doctor updates that he's had this massive transfusion and they've used all the blood from everyone on Voyager to conduct this transfusion.
00:57:36
Speaker
And then I might skip some of the details, forgive me if I skipped some of the details, but the bit I remember is that then they asked to be left alone with him. And, you know, it's a couple of them step back. And I think there's a bit of a whispered conversation going on with the captain and Kez.
00:57:58
Speaker
captain and the doctor because she's like whatever they say try it don't let them remove the survivor like because they're going to try to take him and just say it's not healthy enough to travel and the doctor says yeah that would be the truth yes that's right um but unfortunately as they step away um one of the two caissons stood beside the bedside um has some kind of like needle that just
00:58:23
Speaker
slips out that appears out from his finger or mail bed or something. And he immediately jabs it into the case on on the on the med bed. And unfortunately, immediately kills him flat lines. And there's nothing they can do. Doctor says it was a nerve agent. He was dead almost instantaneously. And so the mystery deepens
00:58:50
Speaker
Yes. And why? I must not, Rachel. Why'd they kill him? And all that I think about it? Well, this- Oh, you just made this to me later. Oh, yeah. I could think of reasons.
00:59:02
Speaker
effectively to not to deny the Starfleet crew the opportunity to understand how that piece of Federation tech found its way onto occasional vessel in the first place to potentially maintain that avenue of acquisition of Starfleet tech open. That would be the obvious rationale to me. Yeah, they're protecting the traitor I assume.
00:59:26
Speaker
As if that guy woke up and they couldn't talk to him or control him and voyage him or, you know, talk to him. They might find out the truth to him. That was what I assumed. Yeah, that makes sense. But it's not like the voyager people are going to torture him. So I wasn't 100%. But I guess that they're just like cleaning up. They're cleaning up. Although you have to say that given the lack of trust and the aggressive outlook of the caisson,
00:59:54
Speaker
one imagines they see all other species through the prism of how they would act in those circumstances. So actually, it would probably assume that Voyager would torture him. Yeah, that's a good point. And I think the other thing that came up in that scene is that the Marge Carlo wants to get their ship as well. And Janeway is like, well, we can't let that happen because we're still investigating how you got our technology.
01:00:23
Speaker
And he's like, well, I think he threatens her because there's more Kazon ships on the way. How brave you are with all your new technology. Will you be so brave with four Kazon ships off your bow? And she's like, we might have figured it out by then. So she kind of just, she really doesn't like them. But yes, after they bow to their fellow crewmate, she orders them off the ship. She's very unimpressed.
01:00:54
Speaker
Yeah, she does. I was going to ask, do you remember what happens next in the sick bay because now that you're the sick bay? Yeah, this is Jenny's era of expertise about to happen again. Well, to be fair, it's not really. The doctor and carers take Captain Janeway aside to explain their theory or their suspicions.
01:01:14
Speaker
Is this the bit where they're discussing Jessica's blood, Jessica's blood? Yes. Yeah. So they didn't promise to get a little bit confused between what is revealed when. So at this point, I think they're saying there's something wrong with her blood, that it doesn't match what they would expect for a normal Bajoran blood, but they're not. Do they? Do they? Yeah, so I think
01:01:42
Speaker
It's lacking all the common bajoran blood factors. I'm sure you can explain what a blood factor is, but we, and the doctor suspects that she was actually born Cardassian. Okay. Yeah. I just wasn't sure if this is for the moment they revealed it, but yeah. And I liked the very fast zoom in on the captain James Way's face with her like jaw dropping. It was a good, a good scene. Yeah. I managed to look up from my note taking at that point and she's like,
01:02:10
Speaker
her face kind of said it all at that point. And the doctor sort of makes a clear, I think it's likely it's been genetically altered from Cardassians. It's just, it's a killer line. It's sort of, it now, to me, that's the point at which suspicion is no longer on Carrie. Well, I, I, I'm still a bit unsure at this point, because
01:02:34
Speaker
earlier on, Cesca had been talking to someone, I can't remember who it was, about how her blood would look a bit odd anyway, because of this like, this disease, she mentioned sore skins or something. And I was, so I was still a bit unclear as to, can she still use that as a, as a reason? Could that be a reason for the sort of inconsistencies in her blood? Yeah, because
01:03:00
Speaker
As Chakotay says, it's kind of towards the end, just because he's Cardassian doesn't mean she's a traitor. So we have to kind of keep our prejudice in check. Yeah. But yeah, so I think after a sick baby back in the briefing room, and they're giving this news to Chakotay. So I think it's two buck and January I'm guessing.
01:03:26
Speaker
And he's like, do you expect me to believe that Cesca is a Kardashian agent who infiltrated the
Betrayal and Cultural Impact Discussion
01:03:31
Speaker
Marquis? So it's like thinking back in the whole history, like how long she's been around. And she continued to pretend all this time. Yeah. Infrastration, Chakoti comes up with the immortal line. Was anyone on that ship working for me?
01:03:46
Speaker
That was the best line, I love that. I really feel for him. How would you feel, right, after you've already been, like, made to feel a bit stupid because you missed the age on Tupac from the Federation? It turns out there was another spy from another species and another ulterior motive. Yeah, I love that line. It's very good.
01:04:10
Speaker
I'd feel exactly the same way. I was stupid, am I? At this point, though, he still wants to give Cesca a chance to like explain herself. And like, I guess, confront her with these details. Janeway wants to wait until they've like, retrieved the console. So she hails Belana to check in on their progress and they're actually ready to go. So she leaves the ready room and exactly as you said, as Kote turns to Tuvok and he's like, you were working for her. Cesca was working for them. Was anyone on board that ship working for me?
01:04:39
Speaker
as you guys said. But that's interesting, though, because he actually, it sounds as though he's accepted that Cesca was actually a Cardassian and was working for them without actually giving. Yeah, it sounds like he's convinced at that stage. So that's interesting. Certainly. I think he's more like at that point. I mean, yes, I agree that he could be convinced, but sometimes you can like you adopt a belief because it makes you able to make yourself the victim more. That makes sense.
01:05:09
Speaker
without, you know, believing it 100%. But yes, it does seem like he's leaning in that way. But he's also feeling a bit sorry for himself. So it's another bit of data to help him feel sorry for himself more, I think. If that makes sense. I don't know if I made any sense. But I felt forward to Kote at that point, because yeah, and also, again, I thought about, well,
01:05:35
Speaker
I don't want to bring in the whole like current events, but I think the whole point of spying is very pointless. I heard this podcast or someone mentioned this podcast that like, there was some in like history, maybe between America on our podcast. No, no one is spying on us sadly. But like there was like this one restaurant that
01:05:55
Speaker
Everyone was there to spy on everyone else. So all it was filled with was spies. So like nothing useful was even happening. So it's just like, what is the point? Just get a life, I guess is my message to all spies. Sorry, no offense.
01:06:13
Speaker
But yeah, so then we go to the bridge and this acaison ship is hailing Voyager. And Carla's unimpressed. And Jamie, do you want to explain why? Carla's unimpressed or Janeway's unimpressed? Well, at this point Carla's unimpressed because his senses show that
01:06:34
Speaker
Voyager people are trespassing on what he considers his ship. But then Janeway is very quickly unoppressed too. Yeah, it's a great little exchange because up until this point one feels that Carla has perhaps dominated the interactions between the two of them. And it seems like he's trying to do more of the same with his select one, his very overbearing arrogance. And he says, if they continue on the ship, they'll need to consider it an act of war.
01:07:04
Speaker
and Janeway says, well Marge, I'm sorry that that upsets you, but I don't like threats, I don't like bullies, and I don't like you, and effectively tells him that she's going to do what she's going to do and that he can try and stop her if he wants to, but he rapidly backs down with his ship powering down their weapons to avoid a confrontation with Voyager, as I understand the scene.
01:07:34
Speaker
Yeah, another example, even if it's fiction, that just standing up to bullies can sometimes work. It's always the right thing to do. Yeah. And I think at this point, Janeway, Hales, Belonna, just to check in again on their progress, and they're done. She's a bit surprised to hear that they've already succeeded, and they're ready to beam back to Georgia with this console that they've managed to extract, I guess. Effective outcomes. This is what happens if you don't push projects to adopt stretch targets.
01:08:02
Speaker
That is a very good point. I feel very strongly about this. I recently... Can I just drop in a tiny bit of corporate? You can, as long as you don't expect me to edit it out. It's a very quick tangent. Go for it. Quite often in my industry, anyway, you have a sort of, okay, we're going to spend 80%
01:08:29
Speaker
billable or 90% billable that's a target right and then you spend the rest 10% of your time you know doing internal non-billable stuff so that's that's the target. But recently I saw this communique that was talking about how the new the new process was to make sure that ahead of time everyone had
01:08:51
Speaker
more work than they in fact had capacity for on the assumption that not all work will come in. So therefore everyone's going to get like be be given their planning for the week was going to get like 120%.
01:09:07
Speaker
of the time. And just assume that some of it will not appear. Which does quite often happen. But my god, this is such bad planning. But yeah, it's more like you can't really plan for that. You plan for capacity. And then if people have extra capacity, then they can take on those high priority things if they have space float, not like assume that it's going anyway.
01:09:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's a surefire way to cause problems in your business. Anyway, that's my little rant over it. Love it. Love it. Um, yeah, so I think the next thing we're in engineering and everyone, well, everyone, Balana, Tuba, Jokote and Jamie are huddled around the console and Balana discovers some interesting things.
01:09:53
Speaker
Yes, and she says the immortal line of all the things to die for, a replicator, and she realizes that the console has bio-neural fibers which mark it out as almost unmistakably a Starfleet piece of technology. Not just Starfleet, Voyager, because Voyager is the first ship with this bio-neural technology.
01:10:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And it clears up which of two Vox options it was that was the source of this technology. And it feels like an immensely sad thing for a crew to die for. Your hands leapt up. Yes, I did make a question here, because as Jamie points out, for like, she's like, imagine what it would mean
01:10:40
Speaker
to a culture without the replicator technology. So I was wanting to ask you, if you had a replicator and you could only replicate one thing, what would you use it for? I mean, not only one thing, like once ever, but you could replicate. One thing as many times as you want to. Bitcoin. Bitcoin. Wow. My answer is much more mundane, Janie.
01:11:07
Speaker
Oh my goodness. I don't know. It's a really difficult question. I honestly would get it to replicate my meals. I mean, I hate, I'm really not into cooking at the moment. So if I could just say.
01:11:21
Speaker
replicator make me sometimes so happy I thought you meant like I'd have to choose one like chocolate like one thing you know one food well you can use the replicator to make art to make weapons to make jewelry clothes anything but I would use it for my meals I mean yeah it's got to be food and water then isn't it because
01:11:47
Speaker
like that's the very basic that you know you'll never go hungry or die of no but i'm not i'm not worried about starvation i'm just very bored of cooking am i thinking i'm overthinking this okay any single thing that you want and you guys would go for food yes correct i mean jenny did i not make you enough dinner tonight i mean really i'd probably go for water because
01:12:13
Speaker
Water? No, you can't get water in real life. I'm just thinking about saving the world, you know, like if you had unlimited supplies of clean drinking water that you could replicate as much as you like, whatever you like, you know, and I don't know.
01:12:31
Speaker
Jamie chose bitcoins. I'd like to revise that because I think I'd choose something which is sort of pecuniary in nature in order to be able to source a wider range of things to more positively influence the flow of human history.
01:12:48
Speaker
just food or water? No, this is just for your personal use. I don't want it to bring in, like, saving the world. But honestly, this would be to save the world. Because as Janeway herself knows, this technology could change the balance of power in a sector, let alone a single planet like planet Earth. I want to change my answer based on what Jenny said. If you can replicate a swimming pool in winter, I mean in summer, we would definitely take that. I mean, how big are the things replicators replicate?
01:13:17
Speaker
A small plunge pool, I think I can do that. And Jamie, would you not go for some top of the range rowing boat? No, I'd go for the money to buy it. And other stuff. Maybe you could replicate all your rowing gear whenever you needed. I mean, I frankly wouldn't want to replicate my current rowing gear because it's in pieces.
01:13:40
Speaker
But it's not replicate as in replicate exactly what you have already. Replicate and like replicate. Those are trying to get me to limit my scope in a way that makes me suspicious. You could replicate money if you want. I don't know. Do you work for some weird undescribed climate change lobby? Do you work for a replicator machine company?
01:14:04
Speaker
I will not be silenced in my call to use my replicator to create funds to drive positive climate change action. Okay, back to the podcast. So I think in this scene, we discovered that the console was a replicator that sadly, which definitely came from Voyager, sadly exploded on this case on ship because they had not installed it correctly or didn't have a thick enough
01:14:33
Speaker
casing or something. A whole bunch of people died because they couldn't install a replicator properly. Yeah I love the tone of this scene because it just really reminds me of like
01:14:44
Speaker
when you get like the plumber round or like a tradesman and they're like, you know, and they're a really lovely, chatty person. And they're sort of talking about the dangers of like, you know, people do it yourself. And how stupid people are, including myself in this, by the way, when they try and fix things themselves. And it just a tones of that, which I found quite comedic.
01:15:11
Speaker
That's right. This was a DIY job gone wrong, basically. Always call the professionals. Oh, I do. I know my limits. But I think the scene kind of I think it ends because it's the bottom of my page. She wants a full report so she can share everything with
01:15:31
Speaker
color. And I guess at this point, I just remember there's a scene, I mean, they kind of parented Shokote or they showed Shokote, and he is looking a bit more concerned. Because it's now, I guess we've proven that the technology is definitely from voyages. So that kind of heightens the tension around Seska.
01:15:55
Speaker
And he makes that clear to Cesca in his next scene with her. And she pushes him to ask her the question well asked then, did you? And she tells him to talk to his animal guide and figure it out.
01:16:16
Speaker
Yeah. So, I mean, he goes in to say, like, kind of fill her in, which I think is very nice of him. I mean, phrasing again, but yes. Okay. I don't know what you mean by when I say phrasing. I mean, you've used a questionable term of phrase that could be made into an innuendo, given the circumstance. If you want more information, YouTube, Archer and phrasing. Okay.
01:16:40
Speaker
Uh, but you could kind of see he is beginning to have, well, I thought at this point, he is beginning to have doubts. Uh, and she turns on him pretty viciously because I think when she says, why don't you talk to your animal guide and figure it a lot? I thought that was a bit, um, vicious, but I liked his response. He was very like completely unperturbed. He's like, I plan to like, yeah, that's how I figured things out. Like,
01:17:02
Speaker
You can't use this against me. Not ashamed of it. I talked to my animal guide. Do you talk to yours? It's feeling lonely right now. She's like, well, good. Come back to me when you do. And then he challenges her on this Cardassian theory that the doctors proposed.
01:17:22
Speaker
And she attempts to explain it all the way. She denies Cardassian Hood. She denies it. She does. She claims to have something called Orchid's Disease and claims the likely story that as a paturant
01:17:38
Speaker
uh refugee growing up in the camps she was saved by a sympathetic cardassian lady who gave for a bone marrow transplant because all the cardassians were very nice to the patrons living in camps very nice indeed nothing to see there federation
01:17:59
Speaker
So is this where they come in saying that the doctors already ruled that rule? Yes, it's not quite yet. Okay, okay. So it's at this point, she's like explaining away this challenge such a court has proposed. And she kind of says something like, you must think I'm a horrible person. She's like, she's still trying to manipulate him. I think at this point, obviously.
01:18:23
Speaker
And she's like, like, kind of like me being an agent, it wouldn't be worth the trouble for the secrets that you share with me. And she's like, I only had one agenda with Yuchikote and I never kept it secret. At which point I thought of the song from How I Met Your Mother.
01:18:41
Speaker
I said a bang, bang, bang. I mean, that's the equivalent of me saying phrasing red, but yes. Sorry, but that is what popped into my brain. And after this whole long conversation, she kind of asked like, so do you believe me again? And he's like, I want to. So she, he seems
01:19:08
Speaker
It seems like he's gone from this position of sorry to doubt her to kind of be sucked back into her. But exactly. And then she's like, sorry to act a bit agitated because she wants to get back to work. And he's like, no, you have to remain confined until we figure it all out because he kind of tells her exactly what they plan to do, which is they want to
01:19:35
Speaker
find out where the replicated components were taken from. And she's like, why? And then he's like, well, that might give us evidence of who took them. It's just two bok leaves and no stone unturned. Yes, yes. As a way of effectively putting the wind up her that this will be thoroughly done. And I think this is what's known as a red letter trail. Oh, what is that?
01:19:59
Speaker
that is where you try and expose who is a spy or who is a traitor by feeding different potential uh
01:20:08
Speaker
individuals of suspicion, different stories, and seeing which of them end up being the ones that the opposition act on. Because based on who got that piece of information, you can then tell who's feeding that information and who's a traitor. In this instance, the Red Letter Trail is telling both Kerry and Seska that they are going to be checking where the console was taken from.
01:20:38
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And then does something to, sorry, go for it, go for it, go for it. Just to interject there, like to go to leave sick bay and two bucks waiting outside and she kind of was like, well, she said she had a potassium transport as a child, which saved her life. And that's what, and then all two boxes is like at that point, it's like, um, did you set up plan in motion? And they're like, ooh. And I guess then you realize they're setting this red metal trail thing.
01:21:05
Speaker
Yeah. Because they fed the same information to her and Lieutenant Perry. Yep. But again, this whole spy thing, I feel like I should just all retire and nothing would make a difference in the world. But anyway. See, I love all the dramas, tilizations of spy stuff. You know, there's only like movies and books and... I also love it, but I think the reality is like nothing like that. It feels so much more mundane. That's what I wonder. I mean,
01:21:35
Speaker
Obviously it is dramatised and it's always this question of how much, like all of it? Or, I don't know, but definitely now I think it's not the same, but I wonder if... I mean, because some of the spy things you watch are like based on real events that happened sort of 50, 80 odd years ago. So it's actually known as the Canary Trap, sorry. Ah, yeah, thank you so much.
01:22:01
Speaker
I think there was a time and place for spying, but in a digital era, you can just like go on Twitter or something and see what people are saying and draw your conclusions from there. But I am not a spy and also I would have liked to be a spy, so I don't know why I'm saying this.
01:22:16
Speaker
Do you know something absolutely hilarious? I've just looked along Wikipedia for, you know, Canary Trap, and the very first known Canary Trap case says, Following the troubled production of Star Trek The Motion Picture in the late 1970s, Paramount Pictures replaced Gene Roddenberry as producer of further movies in the franchise with Harvey Bennett.
01:22:39
Speaker
I was like, how the hell is the very first- That is so crazy. Fine to do with the Star Trek franchise. This happened because fans were complaining about plot developments for the films that Roddenberry had been against. And basically before any drafts of the screenplay were circulated, Harvey Bennett arranged for each individual copy to have subtle clues distinguishing it.
01:23:08
Speaker
When Roddenberry opposed the destruction of the Enterprise at the climax of the film, fans began to complain to Paramount and Bennett. He found the leaked copy of the script was the one given to Roddenberry. So basically, Roddenberry had thought he'd caught a canary trap.
01:23:23
Speaker
That is hilarious, but also he was just doing what they tell you to do in corporate life, which is to get support for your idea by sharing it with others. Yeah, by losing classified documents. Well, it's not classified, it was just a script. Highly confidential. I wrote it on the very next one is Elon Musk at Tesla Motors. It was to do with his tweets or something else.
01:23:50
Speaker
Oh no, it doesn't matter. We can read up, we can read up. Okay, so back to Voyager and the state of blocks. So the next scene we, in engineering, and Tuvar Ketrakote are playing Jhin. I've never played this game, no comment. Do you guys know it? It's a card game? No, I mean...
01:24:16
Speaker
No, not really. I feel like I've seen it on every American show I've ever watched, but I've never got round to figuring out how it works. Oh, okay. Maybe it's more a US card game, I mean... Oh, I think it is. But Shkurte is losing, I guess, pretty badly. Balana enters to let them know that two more K's on warships are on their way and will arrive in about six hours. Then we hear an alarm trip.
01:24:40
Speaker
And someone says, I think Strikoti is like, well, something along the lines of someone is nibbling on the bait. So good line. Yeah. And then we'll move to monitor the activity on a station at which point I have to say I lost track. So Jamie. I mean, it's actually the initial finding of
01:25:03
Speaker
who is entering the code. It effectively shows that someone is actually a very good, to use a term from another sci-fi franchise, Code Splicer, because it appears as though Carrie has logged onto the system and is falsifying things. Not Carrie, because whose security signature is it? Cesca, no, I think it is.
01:25:32
Speaker
So yeah, just to, just to be clear, a hundred percent fear, because they're watching like someone manipulate data on the screen, which is a bit, I wasn't sure they're doing, but, um, Milana asks, anyone know what security code that is? And Shokote recognizes it as SESC is. And so Milana, her reaction is, oh, it must be Lieutenant Kerry, because they assume whoever logs in would use someone else's code to hide their own. But Shokote has a look on his face.
01:25:58
Speaker
He does have a look at his face, I agree. But Volana at that point is like, oh, it must be Lieutenant Kerry because he's trying to point the finger at, um, at, uh, Cesca. Yeah. And I don't, I don't understand the logic at this, at this stage of why they're able to extrapolate that it is Cesca at this point. He goes to a person who had sickbay.
01:26:22
Speaker
Hmm. So could you, for my benefit, because I didn't understand what the additional information really was. Well, Janie, do you have anything to add before I dive in?
Seska's Sabotage and Manipulation
01:26:34
Speaker
Well, I mean, I took it, to be honest, that the additional information was that important really, because it was the look on Chiquote's face, because it just chimed with a conversation he'd had earlier with her where she was saying,
01:26:46
Speaker
Do you really think I'd be stupid enough to use my own, um, whatever it is, um, login. We're going to check for this thing. And she's like, do you think anyone would be stupid enough to use their own? Yeah. And the thing is he's, he knows her intimately, right? So although they see that Cesca's, uh, uh, ideas being used and anyone who doesn't know her intimately said, Oh, well, it must be, um, sorry, I'm getting it confused.
01:27:14
Speaker
That's right. Totally correct. Is that right? So yeah, so it must be Lieutenant Kerry. That to me suggests that we cut out of the scene just before Shokote basically says to them, no, in fact, this proves it's Seska. But they do have some more information, some more evidence, which I think you're both beginning about. Sorry.
01:27:39
Speaker
Well, maybe so, Paul. Tell us. Tell us. Because, uh, uh, she's sleeping and, um, she kind of wakes up as he approaches and she's like, it's over. We know you gave the technology to the caisson. And she's like, I don't know what you're talking about. Um, I don't know what you think you found. And he's like, we found what you wanted us to find, which was her own security code, um, to frame with Aunt Carrie.
01:28:05
Speaker
But they also managed to actually trace the computer station where the data was entered to the one that is literally above her in the sickbay. Oh, in sickbay. That's what we get. We get it. They do have a... Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's some detail about how hard it was to trace, but I just, I just tried to capture the main points. Yeah. Hats off to Seska. She's bloody good at covering her trail. Yeah. She's a fiend.
01:28:35
Speaker
I mean, she's not a fiend. She's just very competent. What is fiend? What does fiend mean? Am I using it wrong? It implies moral judgment as opposed to... I feel like it sounds like a very good evil person. It can be more morally judgy than effectiveness, judgy. An enthusiast or devotee of a particular thing. Or an evil spirit or demon.
01:29:02
Speaker
fiendishly effective, I don't know. Yeah, maybe I wasn't correct. Is this the point where they confront her and she sort of? Yes. Ask why as well. Exactly. So then we finally get the real seska come out and she sort of goes on at how she she thinks they need to be making friends. Yeah. Yeah. If this was a Kardashian ship, we'd be home. Yeah. And the real seska comes out.
01:29:33
Speaker
Yeah 100 but actually this is what I didn't realize when I was watching but only when you guys commented she says uh, you know, she did it for you to go to the crew of voyager because um Because she was like to make friends uh, you know instead of obeying all these federation rules Which is kind of funny because at the very beginning when jamie wants to respond to that distress call. She's kind of
01:29:56
Speaker
also says something, but like, well, we could make friends. They had go about achieving this outcome completely different ways. Janeway by like,
01:30:05
Speaker
going to help someone seska by like betraying her own crew um and and seska asks the question or poses the morally relativistic stance of it doesn't matter how it affects the power in this system it's about building our own power base um which neatly sort of encapsulates the
01:30:30
Speaker
difference between a moral belief system which is relativistic and entirely based on how things impact on your position and the slightly more, how shall I put this, there are absolute morals sort of stance that Starfleet and the Star Trek writers generally tend to take and I think that's a really interesting contrast
01:30:54
Speaker
I think also I just really remember vividly the bit where she accuses Janeway, which I just think comes back a lot in Janeway. I feel like this then weighs heavily on Janeway. It already is weighing heavily on Janeway's mind throughout the whole every season. Did she do the right thing? She blames herself for getting them stranded in the Delta Quadrant.
01:31:19
Speaker
This is one of those scenes where, you know, it's her worst nightmare. She's got a crew member who's blaming her and saying, we're all here because of you. It's all your fault. And I think Jamie has a nice sort of expression on her face. Nice in terms of the acting expression on her face. Is it true? Is it all my fault? But Cesca really knows what to say. I think that's her superpower. That's why she's such a good manipulator. So she says that
01:31:46
Speaker
Whether she, that's what she truly believes or not, I'm not sure, but she knows that's a button to press. And she also doesn't see like, which is like a copy of I Ever Loved You. Like that's another button. He didn't look happy when she said that, I'm not sure. Yeah. Doesn't like the association and doesn't like frankly the accusation of betrayal.
01:32:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's not a nice thing to say to someone. So she's really still this very last moment before she like, has a secret code where she's able to beam away. Still
01:32:26
Speaker
you know, pushing their buttons, making them feel bad. She's about to be a member of the club, not the club, the crew that knows how to be manipulative in a mean way, which is quite surprising, frankly. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, she's a great character. I mean, because she is a good answer to all the very
01:32:51
Speaker
good characters, I would say. I mean, characters with integrity. But Jamie wants to like, so as we said, she like beams off a Voyager. She's been to a nearby Quezon ship, I think. Jamie wants to pursue, but for once she listens to people around who say there's more Quezon ships approaching, doesn't make sense to stay. Let's get out of here.
Tuvok's Wisdom on Composure
01:33:14
Speaker
And she's like, well, we'll have to wait for another day to settle up with Cesca.
01:33:22
Speaker
Yes. I did laugh also actually as well, because I think she gives the instruction to Tom Paris over the
01:33:31
Speaker
to communicate to the Archwastacles, sorry, to get them out of there. And he's like, yes, which is something they comment a lot on the Delta Fliers, the way he's always like, I cannot impersonate anyone, but yeah, go for it, Jamie. Yeah, I mean, you may not be able to impersonate folk, but Norcan,
01:33:49
Speaker
I mean, I've listened to the Delta Flow with Jenny and the imitation of Captain Janeway that Tom Parris, the actor, does is not complimentary. I know, but they also joke about how he has this kind of floaty yes and no, or whatever. And he definitely does at the end of the scene, which he gives them the command to take them out of the area. Fair enough.
01:34:16
Speaker
And then we have a final scene. Who wants to wrap it up? I love the scene. I don't remember enough for me. I did love, I do, I think I remember one line, but I just love Tuvok in this scene. He has some great responses, some great lines delivered really well. He also had a bit of wisdom, which I thought, oh, that is so true. And something that I feel I learned late in life, but it's so true. It has something to do with them.
01:34:44
Speaker
But to say, wait, Jamie, I was going to hear what the word of Western was before. Yeah. Do not mistake composure for ease. Gosh, yeah, I just I think I did that for a lot of my life. I missed composure for ease. And then, you know, as you sort of approach my 30s, I started to realize that, OK, no, I don't think that everyone is really super composed and at ease all the time. It's just they're not sorry. They're not super at ease all the time. They're just
01:35:14
Speaker
they've they've learned it's a skill right to learn to be composed in moments of emotional turmoil.
Podcast Analysis of Episode Complexity
01:35:21
Speaker
And I'd like to think I've got better at it as I've gotten older. But it's also quite a nice reminder that it's not it's not you you're not crazy. It's just that some people are better at it than others and some people it takes them longer to learn. You know, not reactively respond.
01:35:42
Speaker
So are you kind of hinting at like, I guess something which is like, well, if someone doesn't have a strong emotional reaction, it means they don't care. But actually, they're having that reaction, they're just managing it. Or is that an example of like, maybe a way of thinking?
01:35:57
Speaker
I think that's an example of what Tuvok is saying, but it's not just necessarily... That's not related to the episode, but I'm just trying to figure out more about what Jenny's saying. To me, as I understand Jenny, she's effectively saying that there are folk who are composed, but that does not mean that they are at ease with
01:36:20
Speaker
what they are doing or how easy it is or otherwise emotionally. It's just that they're maintaining composure in the face of that discomfort. And I think that's an easy distinction to make. You think that those who are composed are finding everything easy, but that might not be the case at all. It might be reversed and it's being disguised effectively. And I agree that also encompasses what you said of just because someone hasn't
01:36:49
Speaker
made a massive emotional outburst about something doesn't mean they don't care about it. They're just controlling how they react outside it. If that makes sense. I guess I see it in a positive light. It's not sort of repressing and controlling. It's more self-control, composure and difficult trying circumstances because rarely does an emotional outburst help situations. True.
01:37:18
Speaker
So Jamie, do you want to go back into the detail and wrap this up for us? We've been going for a long time and all I keep thinking about is Tim saying, who's going to listen to an episode that's like double the length of the actual TV show? Such a long one. I just think that this episode was really complicated. Yeah. Even when I was watching it, I was like, how are we going to talk through all this? It's going to be so hard to describe. Hopefully you think that we've succeeded, but Jamie, over to you.
01:37:48
Speaker
No, no, no. Effectively setting the scene. Tuvok walks into the void bar like a storm cloud up to Tuvok. Chikote walks in like a storm cloud up to Tuvok and effectively poses him the question
01:38:10
Speaker
Can I ask you to be honest with me? Yeah. And there's an interesting sort of point in which Tuvok sort of concedes the irony of the fact that Tuvok is asking someone who spied on him to be honest with him. And Chakoti asks, was I naive? To which Tuvok responds, initially in a very Vulcan way of, well, like all humans, you're driven by emotion and instinct and they let you down.
01:38:39
Speaker
But you were not naive, and I found your attention span adequate.
01:38:49
Speaker
Which could be taken as patronizing by some species who might try and point out relative empire sizes of, you know, human versus Vulcan space, that sort of thing. But anyway, we leave we leave all that aside. But it speaks a lot to the evolving relationship of Chikote with the Starfleet officers,
01:39:10
Speaker
of the insecurities that will have been needling jacose and work on him as he works through this evolving period that the person he goes to for reassurance is too voc. And it's interesting from that perspective, I think. Yeah, I mean, they have that, as you say, that interesting discussion of like, well,
01:39:28
Speaker
Because I think too, you know, like, but like, he's asking Tuvok for like an honest question from someone who deceived him for a long period of time. But, um, and as you say, Tuvok responds, but then he also has this like, he kind of to check his own thinking, he asked Tuvok, was he ever suspicious of Seska? And I think I also liked his line, something like, no, she expertly pulled the wall over my eyes as well. And just telling.
01:39:57
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I mean, that really makes Jakote feel a lot better, which he articulates. Tupac is like very confused about how two errors in kind of judgment can make Jakote feel a lot better. Mezrelov's company is the response. Exactly. And I think at that point we end. So a nice wrap up and a nice
01:40:26
Speaker
I think next time it's a really like complex one. I might just summarize it quickly at the start and then we talk about bits that we like.
01:40:35
Speaker
oh that actually sounds really fun but also um i was gonna say if you want like maybe i will actually write some notes so i can do some scenes because otherwise i feel like it's very tiring for you guys but let's before we before we critique our own podcast let's wrap up with the star player and then we can stop recording and of course yes well
01:40:55
Speaker
Who wants to go first? I'll go first because I, I already know, because I just absolutely loved two walks delivery in the end scene was my favourite scene. I just the wisdom and the comic delivery of adequate. That is that conversation they have. It's just very sort of philosophical and like, yeah, all these themes about yeah, you do feel better knowing you're not the only one to
01:41:20
Speaker
done something that you consider, you know, naive or stupid and all these different, I don't know, topics of conversation, which really interests me. I just really enjoyed that scene. Great. Jamie? Um, so I honorable mention to Belonna Torres because she
01:41:45
Speaker
I mean, I really like how she sort of sets a boundary with the captain and gains respect for that with the whole, no, it'll be a day because, you know, that's how long it'll take. But I also...
01:41:59
Speaker
And I think also she pulls the technology to actually affect the removal of the console out of the bag. Like rarely in a sci-fi series episode someone come up with a kind of plan and it just works like clockwork. And that happened when she removed the console from the case on ship. So again, kudos points. I think- Use your star clear.
01:42:24
Speaker
I'm going, so obviously to Voq for rousting out the spy. But again, I'm also impressed with Chikote managing the emotional turmoil of his ex lover being a Cardacean infiltration. Yeah, I mean,
01:42:43
Speaker
I was also going to go for Chakotay because I feel like this is the most we've seen of him up until his point. So it was really, and I always really loved his character growing up. I would like to completely reverse my decision on this player.
01:43:00
Speaker
I think star player is Cesca, because not only does she manage to do the impossible, which is sell, effectively sell Federation technology to people with him she's not even made contact with, she has single handedly survived not only years living as an infiltrator in a marquee ship, but she also manages to successfully escape and get the help and assistance of the alien species
01:43:31
Speaker
for whom she is responsible for the destruction of an entire ship on their part. Now, if that doesn't scream... That's a very good point. If that doesn't scream effective operator to you, I don't know what we're all doing trying to get jobs with Goldman Sachs. She probably just told her it was their fault because they're dumb and they need her to install it next time. Exactly right. And she manages to convince them to not execute her for sabotaging a ship, but take her on board and presumably put her in a position of rank.
01:44:02
Speaker
I'm glad you chose Jessica, because I do want to choose Jacote. Because, yeah, because I, well, when I was, I noticed in the last, like, you know, 10 episodes, I hardly ever had anything to say about him, or we didn't say much. So it's nice to see more of that character. And, and he was very even minded. You know, he wasn't even though
01:44:26
Speaker
He had initially had the wool pulled over his eyes. And he was maybe going by instinct and emotion. When suspicions arose, he didn't just completely disregard them. He kept an open mind. Yeah. I mean, this is a bit different. But like, when you know, watch a TV show, and someone's like, why did you trust me? How can you not trust me? And sometimes it's someone like
01:44:50
Speaker
that people just met or someone people have known for a long time. And it's like, you can't just ignore evidence of a blind trust. Like, so, yeah. I'm glad, I am glad someone chose to go to and someone sort of is choosing Cisco as well. Because to be fair, like they did a lot of work in the lab. I mean, Cisco worked my ass off.
01:45:16
Speaker
Yeah, like, but here's the thing, I have to have to flag again that I we choose them for in different ways. So you guys choose the character for doing the character doing a great job. And I choose the actor. And I'm very happy that you voted for Tim Ross week after week. I always thought Jamie was my favorite. And also the thing is, I just want to say about this one thing I've won a little thing about by listening to all of these
01:45:45
Speaker
rewatch podcasts and lots of actors speaking. And I'm not an actor, maybe I'm completely wrong, but often actors are cast because there's actually something similar about them to the character. So it's not that much of a stretch, but the more I learn about Tim Russ, he is very different to this Vulcan character. So he deserves, I think, every bit of praise that he gets because he's like in a band and he's like a
01:46:11
Speaker
you know, he's not this serious logical, maybe he's logical, but he's not so serious as this character he plays, and he does it so well. He's sort of human emotion in real life. Yeah, he's a normal, you know, fun human being, but he, he, it's not like a serious guy got cast to play this serious character. That's not, well, that's not my impression. I mean, yeah, he first appeared in an episode of The Twilight Zone as officer number two.
01:46:41
Speaker
So yeah, I'm always happy when he gets the credit he deserves, Jenny. I do feel like I'll end up choosing Jenny with a lot more in later seasons.
01:46:50
Speaker
I feel like she progresses, but I forgot how good Tim Ross was in the first season. It's just this lovely balance of he delivers lines in a way that could be Vulcan and very serious and logical and at face value, that's how you're meant to take them. But there's always this undercurrent of comedy. It's just so well balanced. It's so good. 100%.
01:47:18
Speaker
I agree. I agree 100% as well. Any final words? I need to give 2V more credit. Jamie's butt. Two words. Two words. But yeah, I am going to sort of leave you guys to it. Because like, we're going to wrap up like everyone will stick and we'll kind of one a two minute debrief because I put a good. Thank you. Bye. Later.