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We watch "Ex Post Facto" (S1 Ep.8)
46 Plays2 years ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching “Ex Post Facto” in which Tom Paris is framed for the murder of a Banean scientist. Due to the Banean justice system's unique method of punishment, Paris must relive the murder repeatedly, causing him great distress. The Voyager crew works to uncover the truth and clear Paris' name while navigating the complexities of Banean society.
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Transcript
Pressures and Expectations in Sharing the Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Right. So, well, all I want to say is that because we haven't done this in a long time, I forgot how this works. Well, then I can start us off on the right track of absolute caution, which is to announce the fact to the 33% of the currently present podcasters that all our friends found out about the fact this podcast exists and basically said that we're under strict orders to at some stage let them watch it. So, you know,
00:00:30
Speaker
Let that guide your words of caution and I will not say the incriminating evidence I have about X, Y and Z, this one, unlike the preceding ones.
00:00:44
Speaker
Okay, well, I think you're gonna have a tough battle because Jenny and I are the majority and we don't want anyone to nod to this podcast. Jenny said it would happen. She caved to social pressure at the time. I said, Red wouldn't like this, but then Jenny was like, oh no, of course I'll show you guys. Jenny's my wife, so of course I agreed with her. So, you know, by some sort of social pressure inflicted mechanism,
00:01:10
Speaker
at some stage in the future, at some stage between now and 99 years time, we'll have to let them see.
Exploring Themes and Character Development in 'Ex Post Facto'
00:01:17
Speaker
No, I did not. I have no intention of that. Although I think some were they, was it Nicola's keen to be a guest. So that's true. Yes. And when I saw, when we saw Vicki at
00:01:32
Speaker
Before your visit, Jenny, she was like, I'm not gonna listen, but Ken likes Star Trek. Anyway, let's talk Star Trek. Yeah, so this week, it's Ex Post Factor. Before I carry on, I meant to do, does anyone actually know what Ex Post Factor means? No, I feel like it means something legalistic, like convicted after the fact.
00:01:54
Speaker
But I don't know. Ex post facto. Things like fake news. No, it's an ex post facto law is the law that retroactively changes the legal consequences of actions that were committed or relationships that existed before the enactment of the law. So it would be like a law that I put in place after this podcast saying
00:02:19
Speaker
read it was illegal for you to talk to James because James Jamie because he's a hazard to humans I'm going to punish you for the fact that you talked to him even though it wasn't a law at the time yeah well that's weird because then I don't understand how it relates to the episode um it sounds fancy I mean there's legalistic things to it and well because it's more that he's um
00:02:47
Speaker
He's falsely convicted. Yeah, he's falsely convicted on sort of fake evidence rather than the laws changing. Keep that in mind as we as we proceed. But Jamie, are you ready to give us your one minute or whatever length that we never hold to summary? Yeah, I mean, I feel like you do. I just think that this is the first episode in which Tom Paris encounters
00:03:14
Speaker
a circumstance that would actually encourage him to let his brain do his thinking for him as opposed to his balls. Is that your summary or a commentary on the episode? It's my summary, yeah. Enacted in a slightly odd space opera of a streetcar named Desire in some instances, and some of the looks and scenes that we're, I don't want to say subjected to, but that we see in this episode.
00:03:44
Speaker
Well, yeah, I guess we're gonna dive into it. But he is quite early Tom Paris in this episode. But he also, I think, does some things that redeem or show that he's not all. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, Tom Paris has done nothing wrong. Nothing wrong. To, to coach, I think it's my Colin Jost in one of the Saturday Night Live things that he and Michael Che do. Anyway, before we dive into like the
00:04:12
Speaker
What's the word review the episode? Um, I did also listen to the podcast, um, but not well, just two things, but did, did the, did you find, maybe it's cause I take notes, but this whole, like, it was the first time we've had an episode where they do all this flashbacks and memory drops and whatever. So the storytelling is, this is a completely new structure. And it was also like a detective story on top of that.
00:04:34
Speaker
So I felt like I had to really, taking notes was kind of a struggle. Or was like, last episode, I was like, okay, I'm finally into this. I'm not going to be so detailed. And I went really quickly this time. I keep pausing. I didn't quite know how to describe all the flashbacks, but yeah, maybe. I actually enjoyed it. I thought it starting on a black and white of a dramatic scene in that way.
Trial and Punishment on an Alien Planet
00:05:00
Speaker
And then to
00:05:02
Speaker
Tom, sort of, sorry, for our listeners, such as they are, if they ever exist. The first scene starts with a black and white first-person perspective of someone being murdered, which Tom Paris is in the middle of
00:05:26
Speaker
effectively living this this scene in black and white from the perspective of someone who, once he comes out of this, we find out. So rebellion chip induced trance, he's on trial for the murder, which he experiences being committed on this theoretical person.
00:05:49
Speaker
And that becomes the central premise of the episode that he has been convicted on this strange planet of murdering a man and is being subjected to the punishment which murderers are subject to on this planet, which is every 14 hours, a memory chip that they have in their brain makes them relive the moment of the murder from the perspective of the person being murdered. And that I think is like
00:06:19
Speaker
I think that's a horrendous punishment, actually. But it's a really dramatic conceit to start the episode with. I mean, it's very unusual to start that black and white image and you're seeing Tom from the perspective of someone else. And he's like, obviously having an affair and this guy's like upset and ultimately lands up, you know, Tom murdering this guy. And as you say, then you find out he's been convicted of this crime and his punishment is this unusual punishment. But just the whole black and white thing.
00:06:48
Speaker
I mean, I thought it was, I don't know a lot about film, but it comes across as very like film noir. So it's like a genre of style that they're going for there, which also is kind of different. What was that famous sort of comic strip that was always black and white city rain pouring down? Was it Sin City? There's a lot of that sort of feel to a lot of scenes in this with the sort of dramatic
00:07:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think a lot of the references have been planned yet, but definitely it's based on something very specific. Hang on. Did you watch Sin City after interest? No, I've never seen it. I feel like I knew someone who was absolutely obsessed with it. So, Sin City is probably based on something that came before it, so... Yeah, neo-noir, Frank Miller's Sin City, yeah. Okay. But yeah, Jenny, what did you think of the punishment?
00:07:43
Speaker
Oh, um, very strange. Um, I, I mean, I thought it was more interesting. It was a bit later on, but the fact that they'd actually progressed to that punishment from earlier stages in their civilization, civilization when it was lethal injection. Um, cause then that comes up later for various reasons. Um, and I was like, interesting, uh, interesting that that's the sort of thing that they progressed to because
00:08:13
Speaker
I mean, I guess we only see the impact on Tom and he's an alien physiology and maybe it's much worse, but it's basically torture. When you say progressed, do you mean progressed as be kinder to the criminal or progressed as in deter crime stronger? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It just made me wonder, you know, I was like, that's interesting. I mean, we want to learn more about this alien's legal system, I guess, because I was like, interesting. So they were doing lethal injection.
00:08:41
Speaker
And then they moved to this sort of weird messing with people's memories, which in Tom becomes a form of torture, but as they say, it was not intended torture, it was supposed to be just punishment. And then that makes me think about the difference between punishment versus torture. Like that's kind of hard one to define. Anyway, they were my general thoughts on it. On the Delta Flies podcast, I think they had a comment at the stage, which they were kind of saying, they found it kind of weird that he's being sentenced and what
00:09:09
Speaker
essentially looks like a therapy room or therapists like office or something. Cause you know, when they like pan out and he's lying on that she's long, but I was like, to me that made perfect sense. Cause it's like a psychological punishment. They're not, they like the treatment or the punishment is this psychological punishment, not like prison punishment. So I thought that was like, for me, I actually quite liked that kind of setting.
00:09:36
Speaker
Yeah. It's interesting, you say psychological, but then how much is he reliving it because he's actually being repeatedly stabbed over and over again? Well, this is the thing I'm like, is he actually feeling it? Or is he feeling the knife in his stomach? It's not a chip, actually, a memory chip. It's that it's memories that have been implanted, I think. And it's, well, maybe it's a chip, but he's reliving the memories of the moment. I don't think he has a physical.
00:10:05
Speaker
Yeah. And the moment, just in case we haven't been specific enough for our viewers, plural or otherwise, is of the scientist who's murdered, coming home, being greeted by a dog,
AI and Self-Identity Discussion
00:10:22
Speaker
and that dog will be important. And then going into the next room, seeing Tom Paris with his wife in a passionate embrace,
00:10:32
Speaker
then some accusations flying the individual turning around to leave and then a slightly hazy fumble and then an image of a knife basically poking out of himself and him lying down and dying which is a bit unclear but certainly puts Tom in the frame of someone who's likely the murderer on prima facie's circumstantial evidence but
00:10:59
Speaker
Tom is adamant in the very, in and from where you can see that he's innocent. So yeah, after we find out that Tom is being convicted and being, this punishment has been applied, the next thing we see, we're in Seq Bay with the doctor and Kez. And we can see she's still interested and committed to her medical training and everything. But the issue of the doctor's name comes up again. And they have that kind of interesting
00:11:28
Speaker
conversation because he's like, well, I asked the captain and she's like, why don't you choose a name for yourself? And he really struggles to see how he as a hologram can choose his own name, which, um, some sympathy for that intellectual position. Yeah, no, it's just kind of when you watch the whole of Star Trek millions of times, you sometimes forget he was kind of just this, um, uh, constrained individual, like holographic individual at the beginning, you know, early on in the series where he's like, I can't choose a name.
00:11:56
Speaker
of grads can't choose we just program blah blah blah and then just like can't you just pick a name from your database? I like when he chooses a few and I did like the little nod to the original series when he's like dropped his spot. I can't recognise Galen as well. I wondered whether that was... Was it Reid Galen? No not Reid Galen.
00:12:21
Speaker
I heard. But I like the analogy they make, though, with cases like, well, yeah, but is how different is that to like, because when if we were choosing a name, we would just access our, you know, database of memories of names, we already know and decide which one, or, you know, you can just make one up based on, you know, letters that you know, is a little bit like, you know, just accessing your
00:12:44
Speaker
many programs, isn't it? However, I have a different perspective on this from both of you. And this is because, whilst I understand everything you're saying, it's not actually typical to choose your own name.
00:12:57
Speaker
No, we know that. I know that, but like, it's nothing. And I actually find that quite an interesting sort of challenge to present a hologram with no sort of thank you for laughing at me about the fact that you know it. But it actually when you think of it, it adds more depth to the dilemma facing the good doctor. I guess kind of what you're saying is that if he was an AI model, he would be trained on all everything.
00:13:26
Speaker
the thing. And none of that training would include the examples of humans naming themselves in a sense. Yeah, and very few. Exactly so. And also, if you keep laughing at my take on this, I'm not going to tell you who Dr. Galen was. Oh, you're very excited to tell us. I'm not going to tell you. We were laughing at the prime example of your mansplalation with Red and Jenny. Those humans don't choose their own names.
00:13:58
Speaker
I have trouble with terms like mansplendation but at some stage maybe you can mansplain it to me. Mansplain who Dr. Galen was please. Only a few mansplend me how I could do that without it being mansplaining.
00:14:17
Speaker
Well, I don't know the answer, so anything you tell me won't be last minute. And she asked the answer. So Dr. Galen is the character who I'm pasting in the link there, but if you truly wish to know, I believe that he was Jean-Luc Picard's archaeologist and structure at Starfleet.
00:14:37
Speaker
So the most renowned Federation archaeologist of the 24th century. Among Galen's best works were his studies of the Kerlin civilization. Yeah, but is the Galen a doctor? I think probably. He is a doctor, yes. But that is the reference that is being used because I think Spock was not a doctor either. Yeah, because I'm actually reading the creation of the Star Trek. Yeah, he's not a doctor, but he's a science officer, I think.
00:15:07
Speaker
Oh, the one I'd said is that he's, the one you were talking about, Jamie, is different to the one who's the doctor. Oh, really? Hmm. Yeah. Dr. Galen. There were three Galens. Unbelievable. A notable doctor, a Federation archaeologist, and an atheist used by Jean-Luc Picard. Oh, so if I click on that, what do I get? I want a picture!
00:15:33
Speaker
Anyway, this can't be great listening, so. Yeah. I love editing. You just read, lead us. So then they, still, we saw the Dr. and Kares, but then they get a comment from Janeway who says, there's an injured crewman on the way back to Voyager, and they don't know if it's Kim or Paris, because they were both. But there's only one. There's only one, exactly. Yeah. That's the next thing we see, it's Kim in sick bay on the bed. Is that what it's called? I think it's a more typical name. Midbed.
00:16:03
Speaker
Med. Med bed. I call it like a clamshell, when the clamshell is closed or something, you know, when you have that like, the sensor that goes over the person in the bed, but just saying the bed seems a bit strange. Medical bay. And the medical bay, yes. And Kim is kind of like a bit out of it. He's like, they made me leave them behind. They made me leave them behind. He seems very stressed about that.
00:16:31
Speaker
Um, and Janeway wants to know what happened to Paris and Harry starts to tell her that Tom has been accused of murder of Tolan Ren. So now when I watched the series, I always assumed Ren was spelled W R E N because that is a bird, right? Yes. And they have that feathery, um, address thing. And I was like, Oh, that's clever. But in the, like if you look online, it's spelled Ren R E N.
00:16:56
Speaker
Oh, really? Well, maybe I was overthinking it. I mean, they presumably don't have the same alphabet. So... No, I mean, it doesn't have to, but you know, I thought that was kind of a, I don't know, a play on the look or something. But yeah, Tom has been accused of mode of toil and wren and engineering physicists on the home planet of the Banaeans. And then as Harry's beginning to explain, they kind of melt into this flashback, where Tom and Harry are back on the planet.
00:17:25
Speaker
And they are meeting, they meet, they get introduced to this physicist and he offers to help them. He has some expertise that he can help them get like back to Earth whilst I honestly didn't know what his expertise was. Yeah, it just seemed like they had a bit of a malfunction that he offered to help them. And he's introduced by the Chancellor as the person who's designed the last few generations of ships, keeping them one step ahead of this unspecified other group whose names I actually struggled with. Can you, can you force the names? Can you marry him?
00:17:54
Speaker
New Marians, okay. Yeah, because at that point we do get a hint about this conflict, I guess, between the Bunnings and the... Anyway, this physicist toilet invites them around to have dinner with his wife and then they can work on this after dinner. But even the way... yeah, no. So then we have that like cityscape of the alien city. I always like it when we have this, even if they just paint it on a cardboard.
00:18:22
Speaker
To me, it kind of looked, I've never actually seen Seattle, but for some reason it reminded me of like a futuristic Seattle. I can imagine like Frasier living there. Yeah, yeah. That's such a good call. And the next thing we in Tolan's apartment with Harry and Tom, and we meet, I don't know if it's Mika or Mika, but that cute but ugly little dog. Yeah, I mean...
00:18:48
Speaker
How do I feel about the fact that on the far side of the universe there are canines that look exactly like our worst canines? That dog was a key character in this episode, sorry. Okay, it's okay if they're dramatic mechanisms. That's fair enough. But also a very
00:19:08
Speaker
I don't know, do you guys get a streetcar name desire vibe off the femme fatale lady who's the... The Dell. Apparently far younger wife of the physicist, Dr. Ren.
00:19:20
Speaker
Again, I think there's a lot of references that were passing me by because this is like, I mean, on the podcast, they did say this is the director or the writer. It was a homage to detective fiction or something. And so yeah, often she's behaving in a way or acting in a way or turning her head in a way. I mean, she has this kind of enigmatic quality that I think, but when I saw a street car named Desire, it was in the theater. So I don't know if I... Yeah, I do.
00:19:47
Speaker
She doesn't remind me of these as the two female characters in that. But yeah, I can see the hurtful plural type sort of what this episode is all about. And Tom is obviously instantly attracted to her. I mean, it's sexual attraction on first sight.
00:20:09
Speaker
Um, and when, uh, I also really like that drinks cabinet that she opens. Yeah. So stylish. That was very cool. But the look that Harry gives Tom when he's like mixing a drink there or whatever, it's like, don't you, don't you start or don't you even think about it or something? What are you looking at?
Investigation of Tom Paris's Alleged Crime
00:20:29
Speaker
Not the same thing you're looking at. What are you looking at? Anyway.
00:20:35
Speaker
Um, but then they are having dinner and I got a bit of a backstory emerges and it seems like Tolan has been neglecting his wife because he's been so focused on these like work in the war efforts. And so she's, he's like saying, Oh, she's much more sociable and I don't pay any attention to her. So it's kind of leading up to this, um, dangerous situation, I guess. Um, then we kind of back in sick bay again and back to how are you? Well, yeah. And he's kind of explaining that, um,
00:21:04
Speaker
you know, after dinner, Tom got bored and went to spend time with Adele and that he knows that Tom saw her again the next day, which I think is kind of key. And we found out that Harry was interrogated and kept for two days, which probably explains why he's so dehydrated and everything. So January orders a change of course to the Bunny and Home World. Anything to add before we go to the radio? Does she appoint, oh my goodness.
00:21:32
Speaker
No, you wouldn't appoint Neelix anything. I think we'd fire him out of the torpedo bed the first opportunity, in spite of the fact that he repeatedly misreads the situation in terms of giving Janeway the pestle context of the Nimerians. No, I was going to say, does she appoint Tuvok as her investigatory officer at that stage? And does Tuvok stop? I can't remember because I just, all I may note was that they're going to head towards
00:22:00
Speaker
Yeah and he already starts by saying that he wanted to go to the surface but also to test Tom Paris's autonomic responses. Now can anyone tell me what an autonomic response is? Yes it's a lie detector test.
00:22:17
Speaker
Is it? Yeah, it's a futuristic lie detector test. Okay. Well, I mean, that's basically on the podcast. But so I guess you don't want to spend much time on the scene with Janeway Neelix, where he doesn't give her very much advice. In fact, Lassa says he normally just runs away from them. Yeah, when she's she says, so what can we expect when they try and intimidate us? Well, I'm normally gone by the time that they try and intimidate you. And he literally receives a look that could have melted plus steel.
00:22:48
Speaker
He's not very helpful at this point. It's just, later on, I think he's a bit more helpful when he's describing the responses of them. I don't know if it's Nymurri. Nymerian. Nymurri. And then, you know, there's a bit of mystery there because they behave in a slightly different way to what he was expecting, which we find out later is there was a reason for that. So, but earlier on, yeah, he doesn't seem very helpful.
00:23:19
Speaker
He ends by saying they are covert society, which I don't know how to really interpret that to be honest. But at that point, I think Jamie summoned to the bridge and they've picked up a Numeri ship, but it's only a tiny patrol vessel. So again, this is, well, this is the first clue that maybe things aren't as they seem in hindsight, but Jamie explains that their mission and the Numeri just gives them a warning saying, well, you're entering a war zone, enter your own brisk or something.
00:23:44
Speaker
And then Neelix is suspicious because he's like, for Numeri people, that's positively friendly. That's so friendly, yeah. It's like, watch out, but you know, on your way. But on your way. So we're back on the Benin home planet. And to our continue, we are meeting the Science Master. Sorry, I made a comment about the headdress. We're really
00:24:10
Speaker
Oh, that one guy in that one headdress, I think I saw guinea fowl feathers. Again, I was really taken with these headdresses. Were they headdresses, or is that supposed to be their actual skin? Well, they're not headdresses. Yeah, yeah. It's their hair. Because Tom Parris was seduced by someone whose hair could be guinea fowl feather. Yeah, I thought that was very open-minded of him. Yes.
00:24:37
Speaker
But you're definitely not calling him. I'm trying to think of a polite way of putting this at all loose. No, open-minded. Okay. So at this point, Janeway finds out that Tom has been accused and punished. And so Janeway is like, what form of punishment? And then they describe, they have the last memories of the person that they murdered.
00:25:06
Speaker
implanted in there, or they have to keep experiencing them every 14 hours or whatever, maybe it's different. And then 2VOC wants to know how.
00:25:16
Speaker
I didn't make any notes except I wrote enneagrams. I was too tired. I was like, but they can somehow retrieve those memories from the dead person and plant them in the artificial intelligence until they've decided whether the person is guilty or not. And then... Yeah. And they never actually show us the artificial intelligence that actually has the memory, which I think is a lot of opportunity for a dramatic conceit. Yes. So that's my whole memory.
00:25:45
Speaker
They have more memory stuff later on, Jenny, right? Like, doesn't Bolana, anyway, that's in the future. But this whole being able to wipe memories or share memories in Star Trek. And I think the whole process, I mean, to what mentions it later on, he's like, well, any technology is subject to risk of being tampered with. And I'm like, that process they describe, I feel like there's a lot of possibility for time. You can extract memories from a dead person, someone already dead.
00:26:13
Speaker
And then as though there's already like, I mean, their body's already like, necroticizing it, like, there's so many problems. And then they put it into an AI. And then they extract it from the AI, put it into a new person. And on this particular case, the new person is in fact, an alien whose physiology they're not familiar with. So I feel like it was a many opportunity for tampering. That's a really good point. I was like, wow, foolproof method. So many problems.
00:26:43
Speaker
Um, so the next scene we were in, I guess, the holding cells. I don't know where Tom is on this planet, but, uh, we see Janeway with, and to up with Tom and I had to laugh at him too. I've just comes like straight up with, he's like, pretend, pretend, did you murder Professor Ren? Like, no beating around the bush. Straight, both bowels, middle son of a yorker. Uh, but Tom is confused, but he's very convinced he did not kill, uh, Professor Ren. And he's very convinced of his own innocence.
00:27:11
Speaker
Then Tuvok again. Were you having improper relations with his wife? And Tom, nothing happened. Almost nothing. Did he come out of the Brooklyn to line? I did not have sexual relations with that alien woman. Well actually in the end, he is right when he says almost. He does say nothing, haven't he?
00:27:37
Speaker
Um, well, then we, Tom flashes back to like the evening, I guess of the murder. Oh, no, not the murder. Sorry. Um, the evening after the dinner when they're all at a missile having dinner, when he like kind of drifted away from the table. Um, cause he was bored by the two science guys.
00:27:53
Speaker
I don't know how science people feel about that. I'm a non-science person. I embrace his perspective of what to do when science people are doing science things. I agree with his perspective. It's a bit like when two rowers get together, you know, it's understandable. You get chatting about something and then you forget everyone else around you. When will you people learn some social skills? Yeah, so it's not surprising he wanders off it, I guess, and he finds the deal.
00:28:21
Speaker
And she's being all a bit like mysterious and like, I don't, I'd rather die slowly or not die at all or whatever. But then her, then she asked the question that we, I want to say, Oh, have been wanting to ask. She's like, Oh, why don't you, like, what, um, why don't you ask me, like, why would I marry a man who's old enough to be my father or something? Um, but Tom is like, I don't know. He's like pretty cool, like a casual. He's not like she.
00:28:49
Speaker
Anyway, she says something about who treated me well, and he's like, well, that's a good reason. Like, you know, he doesn't say it in a way that suggests he's actually trying to reason her out to seducing him. It's more like, it's more like a provocation. Like, well, that's a good reason. Oh, is that how you interpret it? Oh my goodness. Yes. There's no other way of interpreting it. That's a come on.
00:29:13
Speaker
Although, I mean, he could just be flirting because he's bored. I mean, you know, and, you know, never meant anything to happen. But anyway, I've just realized a lot about my picking up on social cues, because this is the second time there's been a scene where I've been like, that was just normal chat. You're like, that was definitely. I still think I'm the friend with the least social skills in this group. Why would you think that? It's just what I think.
00:29:41
Speaker
Clearly, given the evidence of the interpretation of the scene. But anyway, yeah. I was going to say, though, guys, I think I'm thinking about Jamie's comparison to Streetcar and then we're talking about Heroku. Do you know what I realise, though, that this scene, particularly in general, will rise with? It's more like Dick Tracy. Yes. Yeah. It's the Sin City thing. And her character. Yeah, her character in particular, this like sort of
00:30:07
Speaker
this young wife, you know, smoking and melodramatic and... In a white dress, in a rainy night, yeah. Yeah, it's got that element. Definitely that vibe. Bit of both. Hang on. Yeah, I mean, that definitely resonates. Again, I didn't watch a lot of this type, but I must have come across Dick Tracy. I mean, I know it kind of... So that makes a lot of sense. But she seems very mysterious and floaty is what I wrote down.
00:30:37
Speaker
But then I think we suddenly see, we back those black and white images and we back on, I guess, the Voyager. And Tom, it turns out it's entering another punishment cycle. So it's been 14 hours, whatever. And actually gets sent into a COVID, doesn't it? Yeah, he loses consciousness. So Jamie is like, is this normal? I want to take him back to Voyager. And surprisingly, one of the Bhanians, the doctor agrees.
00:31:07
Speaker
he supports the idea where it would normally not be accepted. So, Janeway, Tuva, and Tom being back to Voyager and we're in a sick bay. And we find out actually that this punishment cycle the doctor realizes actually doing serious neurological damage and the recycle that he goes through is actually causing permanent damage. Brain damage. And this leads to the worrying outcome being voiced, doesn't it?
00:31:36
Speaker
this is January says that's a clear reason to appeal the sentence and they'll remove them because you know this wasn't what it was supposed to be and two books says yes uh but the alternative sentence used to be death yes just to add some dramatic flavor a few more high stakes yes I think the episodes we go yeah it's like all or nothing tom all or nothing
00:32:03
Speaker
Um, and it's just the point, sorry, we kind of, we, you brought it up. What was the call? Is this the point where two bucks said, well, I want to do a autonomous response, uh, when he's awake, um, the futuristic light detector test. Is that what an autonomous response test is? Yes. Yes. I can't remember those words. Where's Jenny going? Sorry. Sorry. Charge. Oh, he did. Okay. Uh, and I think, uh, Ken says to two bucks, I already think he could have done it.
00:32:31
Speaker
And I did like T-Voc's response because, you know, I like T-Voc, but he was, as an investigator, I do not have the freedom to ignore any possibility. So he's always just single-mindedly devoted to the truth. And I think, oh, Janie, you've gone offline and Janie, I can't hear you.
00:32:48
Speaker
Yeah, I hope she's not going to go and come into my room and throw a bucket of cold water over me. Because I didn't think I'd said anything that offensive and also I'm lying on the bed so that would be a bit annoying. But yeah, she must have just not got the charger in in time.
00:33:09
Speaker
Fair enough. No, but it's an interesting episode for me. I know that we said it's a shorter one for 37 minutes, and it sort of feels like a good moment to pause and take breath because it is very breathless. You're immediately in the middle of things. There's immediate sort of feel of threat, of urgency. And in many ways, I feel like this is an episode where we are introduced to 2VOC more than we have been previously. Ah, OK, good. Interesting.
00:33:39
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, welcome back, Jenny. We didn't move on. We just paused to take a breath. That was very quick to get reconnected. But we're just wrapping up a scene in the sick bay where, you know, Tupac wants to do the lie detector test on Tom. And they're kind of saying it's a really difficult position because we find, well, obviously he's been identified from beyond the grave by the memories of his friend.
Revelations and Logical Deductions
00:34:04
Speaker
But we also find out that his wife testified against Paris in the trial.
00:34:09
Speaker
So I was like, oh my gosh. I mean, I don't know why I thought I was talking. But it sort of makes the evidence against Paris seem all the more compelling if we didn't know that he's part of the crew and therefore never does anything wrong. So it just makes him in even more of a jam, that old rascal, wanted for murder. That old womanizer.
00:34:33
Speaker
Um, so I think, yeah, at this point, Tuvok wants to return to the service to continuous investigation. And then the next thing we see, we have that scene with Tuvok and Liddell, where she's still being very enigmatic and a belly outfit, in my, in my humble opinion. Yeah, she never really clothes that aren't for seduction at any stage of this episode. Or at least,
00:35:06
Speaker
Yeah, reclining and trying to raise the tension to seduction point at any given moment. Hmm.
00:35:33
Speaker
Well, she was playing a very specific, yeah. Well, Amy was not very specific. Again, I thought, yeah. But two bucks not buying it, I think. I mean, it's, it's telegraphed. It's not subtle.
00:36:01
Speaker
Yeah, well, if this is a homage to the genre, they're probably not gonna change it around. But I think the thing that bumps up or bumps against Tupac the most is the fact that she's claiming that she decided to leave her husband after meeting Tom Paris, even though Tom Paris was gonna leave her plan in a few days' time. So, Tupac, that doesn't seem very logical. Maybe for emotional, passionate people, that would be logical, but he's like,
00:36:30
Speaker
That doesn't make a lot of sense. Yeah, he doesn't seem convinced by it. He's very explicit that that seems dubious and, you know, cold blooded. Oh, yeah. She is a bit cold blooded because when he's like, Oh, I'm surprised he's still staying here. She's like, Yeah, I had to get a cleaning crew to remove
00:36:49
Speaker
There's blood or not, I can't remember. That's quite amazing. It came across as quite cold. But Tuvok wants to know more about the next day when they met following the evening. And so she kind of goes back to another flashback, another heavy rain, lightning, I don't know, a dummy lit and they run in from the rain, her and Paris into the atrium. And this very romantic moment. Although I was very uncomfortable when she dropped down to take his boots off. I don't know why.
00:37:19
Speaker
I mean, that's that's an obviously overly intimate gesture. Physically close to each other. After she's literally said, Oh, look at me, my dress is transparent. In slightly less words. Yeah, he mails down though. And then I think he's kind of hesitant because he
00:37:40
Speaker
You know, she's trying to seduce him. He is being seduced, but then at one point he's like, you're still married. And she's like, oh, my marriage is over. And he's like, we just don't know the time. I feel like he doesn't fight very hard against this process. Well, I mean, he's making more of an effort than I would expect for Tom Paris. Not saying he's the model of behavior, that's. Yeah.
00:38:08
Speaker
I mean, I actually wrote down, Tom actually very well behaved. So she offers to make him some tea. And then in this flashback, then she says, I think she returns to like the two box scene. She says, then they went into the atrium. And then after that's when they got caught by the husband. At this point, two bucks interrogation is interrupted by Chakotay. Chakotay did not have a lot to do in this episode.
00:38:38
Speaker
It's been worked very hard lately.
00:38:42
Speaker
with the news that Tom has woken up and Adele has the cheek to send back a message to tell Tom that she... I forgive you. She does that through Tuvok and at no stage do I see Tuvok either pass that message on or feel like it's remotely necessary. Interestingly I feel that Tuvok of all people seems the most convinced throughout this episode of Tom's innocence and you know we'll wait till we get to the end before we reveal whether he is innocent or not
00:39:13
Speaker
But also that like Tuvok of all folk would be convinced not by personality and you know personal loyalty but by logic because Vulcans are dispassionate logical creatures. Yeah and that's a really interesting facet of this because
00:39:34
Speaker
We would think that as observers in this episode, at one remove from the action, we would be looking at the logical facts and finding in a particular direction, but the facts as we presented them point very clearly at Tom Parris'
00:39:52
Speaker
guilt if one assumes his moral weakness and his being someone who would throw away an entire Starfleet career at the chance of an affair with an aging physicist's wife who he's never met before and is going to leave the planet in two days. I was like, oh my gosh.
00:40:12
Speaker
How dare you read, we met at a place where commonplace sexism was commonplace, but I was never part of that. Apart from when new people discriminated against me, but that's a different question entirely. But yeah, you did spark, I mean, I think you're right. Well, cause I think we are, we prejudging Tom in a sense based on the fact that we know he was on a penal economy. We know that he's like a womanizer. So you're like, well, I guess this could have happened.
00:40:38
Speaker
Whereas Tuba might not be presuming he's innocent, but he's not assuming he's guilty. So back in sickbay, Tom confirms this wife, Liddell's story. He's like, yeah, everything she says is true, except I can't remember anything after the tea and I don't remember going into the atrium. Tea is a strong drink. Von Britz can't take it.
00:41:04
Speaker
And I'm sure everyone at that point watching is thinking, well, he must have been drugged. So then they have that question, like, do you find any, like, to walk to the doctor? We're in. Not cottocks. And it's like, no, there's no record of that. And then suddenly the bridge, the ship is under attack from the Nureri. So. Yes. Here they come. But the timing doesn't really make a lot of sense because Jamie's like, why are they? Why now? Yeah. They've been there for ages. What's, what's provoked them?
00:41:32
Speaker
Um, but, and then, uh, they avoid, well, they handle them with this kind of fancy move to either of you want to explain what happened there. What now was this the one where they effectively, uh, as I understand, there's a wonderful exchange with, uh, the captain about to call some neighbors and, uh, she says, captain, can I,
00:42:00
Speaker
try something that has worked quite well to outrun some Federation layabouts in the past. She's like, go for it. Let's try some some mucky tactics. And they effectively then fire the engine so it appears that they are in deep trouble, causing the encroaching Nigerian ships to attack over aggressively in a way that leaves them exposed. And then they butt-blap their cat in their ass.
00:42:26
Speaker
Sorry. Very good. Thank you, Jamie. I know. I'm channeling the concert you told us about. And then the captain comes up to Chakotay and then says, great work. You're never going to be able to pull that one again. And he says, I have more tricks or something like that, which I thought was quite flirty. Just saying for the JT shippers out there. For the what? We've discussed this. The people that wanted Chakotay and Janeway to get together. Oh, okay.
00:42:56
Speaker
What do you want to ask? I didn't come up with a term, so don't do that. There's nothing that I need to ask, Red. Nothing at all. We all know that clearly mummy and daddy should have gone together, but anyway. Yep. Yep.
00:43:11
Speaker
And then Neelix gives something very useful. He says if he knows anything about the numeric, they'll be coming back with more. So against stakes are high, because they're running out of time for the investigation. So you've proposed proposes a mind meld with Tom so that he can actually see the memories that Tom is having. The doctor in sickbay is not happy about this. Yeah, the doctor doesn't like this mind meld. I mean, he says it's not a typical thing. But I understand from a limited understanding of Star Trek.
00:43:40
Speaker
It is quite a common thing. So. Yeah. Is there risk or no risk? There is risk, but I think he, the increased risk this time was that he didn't know how the memories implanted in Tom's brain would affect. That was the additional. Okay. And maybe he sees it as like some kind of, you know, home remedy or something. Yes.
00:44:09
Speaker
Um, but, um, so the doctors are very against the idea, but I think there's this moment where you can kind of see Tom is suffering and January is that kind of, oh yes, two block, please go ahead because they just want to, um, you know, get to the bottom of this.
Character and Relationship Dynamics
00:44:23
Speaker
Um, and so two block enters Tom's mind and he, he sees that memory that you described earlier and that we saw at the beginning of the episode, uh, total and threat, total and, you know, he sees exactly what we've seen before total walking on his wife and Tom.
00:44:36
Speaker
Tolan's threatening Tom. Getting down. Tom's stabbing or murdering Tolan. It's never that clear that Tom actually does the stabbing in that scene. It's a little bit blurred, but anyway. Maybe because I was writing. I never noticed that. So sometimes when I'm looking down, I must pay attention to the subject matter. It's more important to feel these things and to have notes for the podcast.
00:45:14
Speaker
But it turns out he witnesses other stuff. Stuff that Tom, I guess, doesn't know how to interpret. So yeah, Chiva comes out the mind mold and he wants to speak to Harry. And then I mean, we haven't seen, I think, well, actually, no, sorry, I was going to say, I was going to rush over, but then we see January in the ready room speaking to the Barneys on the computer. And it seems like she's trying to still convince them to
00:45:38
Speaker
or appeal their punishment and change it to something else. I guess she's saying Tom Connell that he's too sick. So she wants to send him back to the planet so they can undo it and consider another punishment. And they want to send him by shuttle because he's too sick to be beamed back to the planet. But this is actually all kind of part of a trap. Because the next thing we see, Tom and Harry in the shuttle,
00:46:04
Speaker
Um, and, um, they're kind of having some banter about women again. Oh, but that's, that's actually kind of meaningful bit because, uh, Tom accuses Harry of this all being his fault saying, Oh God, you're supposed to be a conscience. You let me get into a situation where I've, and I'm, uh, paraphrasing.
00:46:25
Speaker
banged a physicist's wife and been done up for his murder. If he'd only sort of stepped in, I wouldn't be in this shit. And Carrie, I think, does the Star Trek equivalent of saying WTF, you literally banged the guy's wife and her in a situation where you're- Why were you saying banged? It's funnier. I banged, banged, banged your wife. Banged, banged, banged, banged your wife. Banged, banged, banged, banged your wife. Spent time together.
00:46:58
Speaker
Yeah. Is this a little bit like that episode of carrying up the Kaiba where they're using T as a, what's the word, synonym for Tiffin? He doesn't remember anything after the T, so that brings up a whole other issue. But it seems that they were talking for, well, that period of time.
00:47:24
Speaker
talking. I am going also a Star Trek for children. Anyway, let's go back to it. So Harry Kim basically says, what on earth you've literally snuck the man's wife and you know, you might have murdered him. And, you know, if you could only just not look at a woman and immediately transduce her. And Tom says something, you know, quite dramatic back says, Harry, something that's gonna happen to you. And you look at her,
00:47:53
Speaker
and you'll know it's wrong and there's not a damn thing you can do about the fact it's going to happen. I'm like, wow. I'm always so impressed with your recall, Jamie. Yeah, it's a big deal moment. It's one of the Harry Tom bonding process. I agree, I agree. I'm glad you... Me too moment. Yeah, yeah. What are those thoughts?
00:48:54
Speaker
No, Jenny, there'll be nothing you can do to stop it. All right.
00:49:00
Speaker
Yeah, that is a very good point about the frequency because Tom probably uses that kind of excuse all the time. He's like, there's nothing I could do to stop it. I always want to hear more about... Sorry, I'm just... had to remove my light a bit.
00:49:27
Speaker
Oh yeah, so they're on the shuttle. And then we kind of read like, Tom asks, so after that kind of, you know, bonding moment or banter, Tom says something too, but like, are you sure you know what you're doing or something like that? Because then you realize that him and Harry are kind of like bait.
00:49:43
Speaker
Um, because the numerians approach again, and instead of going for where to, they go straight for the shuttle. Uh, they board, um, the shuttle and they have like, I guess, almost like, what's the word bounty picture, a wanted picture of Tom. And you know that you're specifically looking for Tom and, uh, as they kind of approach, they get beamed up off the shuttle. Tom and Harry get beamed off the shuttle. So something fishy is going on. Um,
00:50:12
Speaker
Janeway was pretty fierce when we were back on the bridge and she's having that conversation with the Numeri guy when she's like, you must give back our shuttle. It's being rigged with explosives. Yeah, I thought she was quite fierce. Yeah, I mean, she's clearly, she's not going in there to take prisoners. Yeah. At this
00:50:37
Speaker
And we can't realize, we find out it's probably seven hours until the next Tom cycle, punishment cycle. And Jamie's like, well, that should be enough time to clear things up. And she hands over to two box saying, this is your show now. And we have, yeah, go ahead. No, it's just gonna, and I, I'm like at this stage, like, I mean, okay. Yeah. Granted you've captured a bunch of Nymeria who were trying to kidnap Tom Paris, but
00:50:59
Speaker
What makes you so sure you're going to be able to prove his innocence? I mean, I know you've got Tuvok's super brain, but still. Jamie, Tuvok relies on our very ancient method. When he says, when I say ancient, I mean, 150 years old. With your permission, I would like to invite all involved parties to meet at the scene of the murder in two hours. I mean. Hercule Poirot. Yeah, Tuvok. Yeah, why aren't you in here sort of boosting up the Poirot connection?
00:51:28
Speaker
Yeah, because, well, at this moment, obviously, he was very thrilled at the Poirot-Modeschy Road connection. I was like, yes, we're going to have that scene where, you know, like, is it you? Is it you? Is it you? I mean, I think we're all pretty clear that it's, is her name Nilla? Adele? Adele, yeah. I found it really hard to remember her name throughout that episode. I mean, I wrote it down.
00:51:54
Speaker
Probably need to post it there next to my computer with names of people next to my personal descriptions of them. Um, so Janie, I don't know how you felt when you heard that line, but I was like, very excited. Hmm. Hmm.
00:52:23
Speaker
It was very good because, yeah, he has them all there. And he says, I think he, I don't know if he says, but it emerges that he has proof that the tamper proof, not tamper proof, Enneagrams were tampered with. There are a couple of key pieces of evidence. They start with like the height. I think he makes Paris. I don't like this out of the show.
00:52:47
Speaker
I just think they could have made it about anything apart from, you know, murderous, short ass, talking to more. Please remind the listeners how tall you are. No. Okay. The second was that Tuvok had noticed that the professor had been stabbed in exactly the right place to reach his heart so the killer would have to have some knowledge of, and that's me, of when I am. Where does he say the heart is on?
00:53:25
Speaker
And then he also saw those symbols, which Tom had seen across those images, but just thought they were normal part of this Enneagram process.
00:53:54
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, brilliant. And then, um, uh, does anyone want to describe the final kind of nail in the coffin? Oh, because I guess any, any like accuses the doctor at that point makes a doctor stand next to, um,
00:54:23
Speaker
the dill and they are the same height and he's like well what does that mean we're the same height that's hardly proof of anything and then we have the star of the show he's like you're forgetting about another witness that was here that night can you let her in please the doctor goes through the door and lets in little mucky and she's obviously very excited oh because he's just said i've never been to this apartment before in my life we know that the dog
00:54:50
Speaker
loves him, loves him. We know that the dog hates strangers so when the dog acts very excited to see him we're like busted, busted. Yeah but we haven't actually gone over some of the details of the why. We've got the who, we know a little bit about the how but the why it transpires was
00:55:11
Speaker
They were looking to use the engrams onto which the memory punishment is grafted as a way of transferring the information that the scientist who was murdered was compiling about the next generation of ships for that planet to use against the Nimerians. And that was why there had been multiple attacks on Voyager
00:55:38
Speaker
at any time at which Tom Paris was potentially kidnappable because they were trying to get hold of Tom Paris to nick the ship designs. Although they never really say how they managed to bribe Adil and the actual murderer to do that or why.
Episode Reflection and Analysis
00:55:58
Speaker
It was just left as a done deal that that had happened and over to you guys.
00:56:02
Speaker
probably a bit like in Dick Tracy. But yes, no, that's a really good point, the why. There was like that moment when they're kind of, it's all wrapping up, when Adele like runs towards the bunny and doctor, and I was like, is that because she's in love with him? Or because she's angry with him? I didn't quite know how to interpret. And then she turned, yeah. And then she turns around, gives Tom that little show, like, I would never hurt you. And he's like, yes, you would, whatever he says.
00:56:40
Speaker
And then we end, I think. Oh, I did make this little note because I said the final image of the scene is just Janeway looking around at a crew, looking very proud of everyone. She's like, oh, two bucks, so smart. I'm so glad Tom didn't kill me. Yeah.
00:57:05
Speaker
Oh, which one? Oh, yes. Is it the one where mind moths go bad? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:57:23
Speaker
But I also do quite like the moment at the end of the episode where Tom Paris tries to forge a bond with Tuvok. Yes. But Manly, I, Paul and Tuvok. So we wrap up. No you don't. This was just me doing my job. Yeah, so the final scene is, is it the canteen? I don't know. Did you risk my life on a dog's behaviour? Yeah, exactly. Some who would say you risk my life future on the eyewitness identification of a dog or something.
00:57:53
Speaker
And Tuvok claims that he would have done the same whether Paris was guilty or innocent. And his comments about short talk. I just wrote short talk. Yeah, Paris says, you keep to yourself, you don't really eat with people much. And he says, I don't do what humans call short talk. It sounds a lot like Captain Holt, which is a good thing. We need some starter at Captain Holt.
00:58:19
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Okay. Before we, yeah, I just watched season eight of a Brooklyn Nine-Nine and the one episode is so funny. Um, uh, but then, yeah, Tom Parris gets up and stands up and kind of says, well, you've made a friend in me kind of, or you've made one of me regardless. He's Tom is obviously very grateful that I mean, two octet save his life, essentially, or save him from a life of torture. So no wonder, no wonder he feels, feels that way. Um,
00:58:54
Speaker
I mean, Tom Paris does it by having sex with their wife. Sorry, what you said. Yeah, that would be more entertaining. As long as I'm not the one accused of it. So any thoughts on the theme or things you enjoyed the most or, and we mustn't forget star player, but let's start with themes.
00:59:24
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of Sin City, there's a lot of Murder She Wrote, there's a lot of Streetcar Named Desire, all in that one episode, which being effectively a space opera is pretty darn impressive.
00:59:57
Speaker
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
01:00:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think over time I've enjoyed this episode more and more through rewatching. It's not one I would, as you kind of say, naturally gravitate towards, even though, but because I guess it doesn't, there's not a lot to
01:01:00
Speaker
I mean, obviously it does raise the question of like, is this punishment humane? But it's such a, it's a very small part of the episode. It's not like a driving factor. But yeah, I think it's just hard to think of like a theme or message that the, well like, when you're visiting a country you don't know or parent you don't know, just don't do anything stupid.
01:01:31
Speaker
Um, but yeah, um, so it's star player who wants to begin Good choice Although the dog saves it by liking a murderer Which is the only thing that sort of makes me pause In awarding my star player award to the dog as opposed to two lock to annoy red
01:02:01
Speaker
Um, but the dog, the dog has some weird morals if, if it likes a murder or so. So I'm going to go for, actually, no, I'm going to go for Chicote and, you know, giving away my key state secrets and everyone loving him for it. Chicote for the win followed by two dog. Nice. I like this cause I think we all gonna have a different one. Obviously not just cause I liked York, but I think he was the star player.
01:02:25
Speaker
Honestly, Reg, we mustn't be obvious on this podcast. And I love that he was playing her Kilburrow, another favourite character. Yeah. I'm sure he will.
01:02:51
Speaker
He's like Jessica Fletcher, Hacul Perot, all in one. And those are other favorite characters online. Yeah, so anything else to add before we start recording? I think we've nailed pretty much everything going on this one. Not unlike Tom and any single woman he finds in this episode. On that note, we shall end.