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We watch "Caretaker" (S1 Ep.1 & Ep.2)
84 Plays2 years ago
Welcome to We Love Janeway.
We are two loyal Star Trek Voyager fans, plus one newbie who watch and episode of Voyager, and then discuss!
This week we are watching the pilot episode called "Caretaker". In it the USS Voyager crew is flung to a distant location and captured by an entity called the Caretaker. The crew must convince the Caretaker to send them home, but it dies, leaving the crew stranded. They are attacked by a group called the Kazon. The crew must decide whether to use the Caretaker's Array to go home, or destroy it to save the Ocampans.
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
technical tryout. We're now recording it looks like. Yes, so we're back. Now I have this irritating menu on the side, which I don't
Opening Scene Analysis
00:00:11
Speaker
want. But right, so it was a, we are currently discussing the caretaker parts one and two. Well, listening to all those podcasts already paid off. I made a couple of notes and I've kind of got them in chronological order.
Star Trek Voyager's Theme and Janeway's Character
00:00:30
Speaker
But what do you think, I guess, of the opening scene before the credits or before the opening sequence? We're in the, like, the maquiship and...
00:00:39
Speaker
So I really sort of loved it. It kind of, sorry, it sort of throws you immediately into it. It has that sort of Star Wars intro of the text of, this is the universe and this is all you're going to find out about the universe. Bang! Chase! And you're sort of immediately dumped into it and emotionally gripped, which I really, really like, even if I was a bit like, this is a bit of a Star Wars opening, which is possibly a bad comparison to draw on a Star Trek.
00:01:03
Speaker
podcast and again, the lynch mob will come for me at some stage or other.
Character Dynamics: Paris, Kim, and Deep Space Nine
00:01:09
Speaker
But I sort of liked how that introduced it, if that makes any sense. And then to go from there to a sort of more relaxed and like not so high drama tension, but still quite high narrative tension with Tom Paris being approached for the first time, I thought was quite a nice contrast. I don't know.
00:01:32
Speaker
Yeah, I think my favorite part of the intro is at minute one when we see Tubac. He was definitely one of my favorite characters when I was a kid or teenager and still is. But I'll talk more about that later because when he meets Neelix. Anyway, what do you think about the theme tune? Because I think Star Trek is the one series or Voyager, I should say, is the one series I watch of all TV that I never skipped
00:02:01
Speaker
the theme tune intro thing. I always let it play. Yeah. I mean, I must say that's the first, the intro sequence, you know, I didn't feel I had a lot to say about, but the musical intro is, I've always thought of fabulous. I love listening to that. I love the visuals that they had. There's something sort of, you know, inspirational, adventurous,
00:02:30
Speaker
about the music. I don't know who the composer is, but it's... Oh yeah, good question. I think it's beautiful. And it's certainly, I'm sorry, but it's a huge improvement on some of... Oh my God. I mean, I don't want to get negative, but it's... Yeah, because let's not throw shade this early in the podcast. There's another Star Trek series I try to watch and I was like, this intro is terrible. But do you find it like goes really big and majestic initially, but then there's a really sort of...
00:02:55
Speaker
quiet and almost peaceful and calm bit where you see the ship sort of going through some atmospheric stuff and sort of going like a mist over the hull. And I really like that bit as well. Yeah, that's true. I just find it very moving and everything you said, Jenny, like inspirational. And yes, I should probably find out who the composer is. This is not a podcast where we go into the actual actors and the behind the scenes.
Real-World Parallels and Political Themes
00:03:22
Speaker
This is just us talking, but it's probably worth finding out the podcast.
00:03:25
Speaker
I don't know about any of that. Any Star Trek trivia.
00:03:30
Speaker
Well, I'll try, as I said, it'll be a little, did you know? But then I think we see Janeway, I love, in New Zealand, in the penal colony, where she's recruiting Paris on Paris. And she's in the power pose. Did you notice? No, I didn't. I mean, I don't think the power pose was a thing when they filmed this, but it became a thing a few years ago. And I was like, she's in the power pose. That must have been intentional in some way.
00:03:56
Speaker
Yeah, and like it's sort of quite stark because you don't sort of think of Star Trek and penal colonies. Yeah, like especially on this sort of, you know, incredible utopian earth that has been built there. It's always a bit of a weird thing to have.
00:04:16
Speaker
Yeah, but you almost, you start like a, and at least this is what I observed with Tom Paris just through that, the length of the episode, you sort of start a redemption arc from him from that point as well, don't you?
Kim and Paris Friendship Development
00:04:28
Speaker
Well, yeah, he's pretty cheeky. I mean, I like the one line when he's like, well, then I guess I'm yours. He's like, he's very cheeky and sarcastic in this episode, but he, as you say, does start redeeming himself pretty, pretty early on.
00:04:41
Speaker
I mean, if cheek and sarcasm are things that need redemption from, then I'm absolutely in no trouble whatsoever. Jenny, you've also watched Deep Space Nine, because I've got to be honest, I'm pretty sure when I was a kid, and this like occupation, Cardassian war, that probably all went over my head. But watching Deep Space Nine really made it like way more
00:05:03
Speaker
concrete when they were talking about these things and understanding why these people are rebelling or outlaws or... Yeah, I did kind of join the dots, I must say, because I sort of missed that when I was growing up doing Space Knight. I can't, you know, I remember seeing like vague scenes, but I guess I never...
00:05:19
Speaker
it was never on or I never got into it so re-watching it as an adult was quite interesting because it gives you that backstory doesn't it? And then you kind of can understand and you can have a bit more sympathy I think with Chakotay and Bolana and everyone at the start and say oh well yeah I mean if you're in that position what would you do? For my benefit as a layperson what have the Cardassians actually sort of done
00:05:43
Speaker
Well, that is a good question. They face the Bajoran planet, they kind of like, they invaded like a part of space. And we're at war with the Bajorans. I mean, now I haven't watched eSpace in a while. But to reach like a peace treaty, they negotiated this like, like a peace treaty with the Federation, which voyage is part of, but that involved handing over some planets and like
00:06:08
Speaker
in certain parts of space to the Cardassians, where actually like humans and historians or whatever lived. So obviously, those people had to be relocated. And some of those people didn't believe in this peace treaty or this relocation. And also, I mean,
00:06:22
Speaker
the D space line goes into the whole what the Kardashians actually did as occupiers and like invaders. I guess you can kind of like we can liken it to all kinds of like real world political situations but the current one would be if for example now in order to save many more lives in the future there was a peace deal negotiated between
Voyager's Theme and Fandom Culture
00:06:41
Speaker
Russia and Ukraine where Russia
00:06:44
Speaker
was given the areas that it's annexed. The people in those areas who are Ukrainian have to understand if they refuse to accept that and keep fighting. Yeah, crazy that 30 years later or whatever, we actually have a contemporary.
00:07:04
Speaker
It feels like a sort of invader-occupied dynamic, so it makes sense, I agree with you guys. Just from what level you've told me, not knowing too much about who the Kardashians were.
00:07:16
Speaker
Don't worry, we can always do a podcast on Deep Space Nine. We've got the 37 series on the Voyager. Sorry, did I say Cardassians, not Cardassians? Yeah, never mind. I'm probably going to make a mistake, but yes, that is really frustrating that they are now. We should have a disclaimer at the start of this that none of us are
00:07:34
Speaker
We're going to get names wrong. We're going to get confused. I don't want to say I'm not a hardcore Trekkie, but I'm not like a detail person when it comes to this kind of stuff. That's it. That's the one. Same. I will not judge myself on getting detailed wrong.
00:07:48
Speaker
Yeah, don't, because I'm sure like, also my mind always goes blank in the moment, like when I was watching the episode, I'm like, what character is that? What's his name? And I was like, neither, because I couldn't remember his name. It's the equivalent of loving a band, you know, like you say, I love the Rolling Stones, but there's always someone there who says, oh, really? So, you know, what is every single album title they've ever... Oh, I hate those guys. I love to like the Rolling Stones, but not know all their trivia.
00:08:14
Speaker
I mean I've seen the killers four times and probably I already know like Mr Brightside like is what the name of one of us is. Why do obsessives have to make you know enjoying something good at competition? Oh Jamie that's a whole other podcast. All right so we're not answering that bit now. Everyone wants to feel better than someone. I don't know why. Okay so the next I guess you know after that scene we there's Tom on the shuttle going towards Voyager
00:08:44
Speaker
Yeah. Some creepy there. Oh, he is creepy. But I did love the line, do you always fly a woman at warp speed, Mr. Paris? I was like, only when they're in visual range.
00:08:57
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, he is a creep, but that is the point, I think. How do we think that scene has aged? Well, this is the thing. I mean, I love the woman leader. I love the leader. And, you know, she's intelligent and scientist. And that's wonderful. But there's an awful lot of possibly things that wouldn't be quite so
00:09:18
Speaker
acceptable in the post-Me Too era, in particular the leaning over. Yeah, I don't even really know. The sort of spring into their neck, yeah. Their hands on their shoulder slash neck. I mean, that would be weird if I did that to a colleague, or vice versa. There is, which series that I watch? Oh, yes, it's Jonathan Frakes, who plays Riker in The Next Generation. He always puts his one leg up on
00:09:44
Speaker
So, you know, like he's always like, oh, I'm like, stop doing that. Doesn't make you masculine. You've got a bit of time. But yeah, but I mean, I think the point is Tom Paris is supposed to be a creep and she is very like strong.
Sci-Fi Technology: Bioneural Circuitry
00:10:00
Speaker
You know, she's not bothered by him and she rebuffs him and it's not like a big because he does go on this whole thing. And then I guess we learn a little bit about Voyager because she says something about the binaural circuitry.
00:10:13
Speaker
Any comments on the bioneural circuitry? Bioneural circuitry, sorry. Sorry, go through it other people first because like me coming to it as a bright eyed idiot newbie is not going to help this for anyone who's actually into it. No, go ahead. I just thought...
00:10:30
Speaker
I mean, if you think about when it was made that's actually a really clever fictional concept to come up with as a way of explaining why the ship is sort of an awful lot faster, you know, more advanced and of its time.
00:10:47
Speaker
I quite like the fact as well that in a parallel series, which is my only real frame of reference to the Star Trek universe in its completion, in the Orville, the one time they're sort of thrown forward into the future, like this incredible ship that they come across actually just looks completely organically grown.
00:11:08
Speaker
And I sort of quite like that as someone's concept of when science becomes so advanced, it becomes, you know, biological. And I sort of see that parallel in the bio neural circuitry that you mentioned there. So I really liked it. And it's sort of, it's sort of also parallels
00:11:29
Speaker
Oh, what was Farscape and Moyer? I always loved that idea that, you know, this group traveling through space in something that's actually alive rather than, you know, just a, you know, mechanical ship. And I like that. I really like that. And it made Voyager feel that little bit closer to a living thing. Yeah, which came first? Voyagers, Bioneer, or Secretary, or Moyer? They're quite small in the way, aren't they? They weren't randomly going through different bits of the same universe by any chance, were they?
00:12:00
Speaker
I just mean in terms of when they were made. Possibly Voyager.
00:12:07
Speaker
I wonder if there's also a bit of a precursor to, I'm just like zooming ahead. Whenever I watch the pilot episode, it makes me think of all the future episodes, especially because in the future episodes, they come back in time to the pilot episode. But in particular, there's kind of like a precursor to the one where Tom, he gets taken over by an organic ship. He sort of is interconnected to it and it starts to sort of control his mind and his behavior.
00:12:38
Speaker
Alice. Yeah, that's the one. Which is a parody based on a book by Stephen, well, I don't know, I don't say a bit, a similar concept in a book by Stephen King called Christine, which I saw in a charity shop and then I didn't buy for some reason. Anyway. Sorry, I should ask, do you mind me sort of bringing up all these things? No, why don't you bring up everything? But obviously, I'm just trying to go a little bit in chronological order so we don't
00:13:05
Speaker
Totally get it. I mean, maybe that's pointless, but... No, no, no, keep up. Good God, keep us in order. This place needs structure and I'm not bringing it. I agree. We might have to...
00:13:17
Speaker
Because as long as it is like two hours, we're in the first five minutes, aren't we? Yeah, I know. I see there might be another recording.
Voyager Conference Memories
00:13:24
Speaker
Although, to be honest, there's some things that I just zoom through. But you might have a lot more to say. So let's see. Yeah, you might want to edit and cut things. Oh, yeah. Well, I think this is a podcast for the purists. Yes, as long as possible. I'm going to get a lot of everything. Yeah, totally.
00:13:43
Speaker
Then at 10 minutes or 9 minutes, or a little bit further than 5 minutes, I think we are in Quarks, because we're on Deep Space 9. Actually speaking of Deep Space 9, because Voyager is at Deep Space 9. And we saw Morn. Do you guys... He did look familiar. The guy, Quark, is the Ferengi. He's the guy who tries to rip off how you can.
00:14:08
Speaker
But yeah, that scene is sweet. But Jenny, I mainly wanted to ask, do you remember when Garret Wang will process at the Star Trek conference? Oh, cool. I mean, this was the highlight of my... I'm not even a Star Trek fan, and I remember that.
00:14:24
Speaker
Yeah, that was quite exciting. We went in the queue and he had to get through, so we had to move back. I was pleased to see that he had a big smile on his face and he's very polite and he's like a really nice guy. How many years ago was that? A year or two. And have you watched the old boat that grazed him yet?
00:14:47
Speaker
Aww, I didn't touch him. Wait, that came across! You didn't touch that man and the court can't prove anything. Maybe he's always raised. Especially after that horrible disease he gets in the first episode, which I mean, he might be contagious still. Exactly. Right. I think he's quite a fan of attending the Star Trek events. I mean, from what I can pick up on the Delta Flies. I think he made his wife at a convention. A couple of years ago? One year ago, he's...
Crew Dynamics and Personal Favorites
00:15:17
Speaker
Jenny's into polyamory or whatever. Okay. Married someone else. Yeah. Um, but I don't want to, I guess gloss over too much, but in that scene it quarks, but it's, I guess when Harry meets Tom Parris in the beginning of the bromance, they're a meet cute, I think as they say in Hollywood.
00:15:40
Speaker
But I don't have too much more to say about that. Yeah, I sort of like the way to introduce them as contrasting characters, but ones who slot together quite nicely. Yeah. Because, you know, you've got Tom Paris, who seems very sort of man of the world and cynical and jaded, but you sort of feel
00:16:00
Speaker
you know, he feels like he's lacking some of that solidity and that warmth and that self belief that comes from the friendship of a straight edge like Harry Kim. And you sort of start to see what
00:16:12
Speaker
well, what I see them giving each other throughout the rest of the episode, you sort of start to see it from that sort of moment where Tom Paris basically gets him out of jail, but then he sort of gets reassurance from the fact that Harry's there like, and being like, yeah, thanks man, appreciate it. And you can sort of see how that dynamic starts to develop throughout the rest of the episode.
00:16:37
Speaker
Yeah, I really love their friendship. And I guess at the beginning, they're opposites in a sense, but... Complimenting ones. Yeah. I think in the next scene, we see kind of Voyager from the outside. And I love Voyager. I mean, some of the times the graphics are pretty old school, obviously, but I think sometimes they're really good.
00:17:00
Speaker
So, Jamie, as someone who's new and doesn't have like the sentimentality, I guess, attached, what are all these like special effects and graphics? Do they come across like very old fashioned to you or? I mean, you've you've asked me as someone who doesn't have the sentimentality, you heard that the one thing I liked as a kid about such was seeing the starships. I'm drinking a glass of wine, so I cannot track everything you said. I thought you were going to say to cope with you. I liked it like
00:17:30
Speaker
It's a new thing as I never sort of think about things that much from the perspective of, oh, this is the character's first time doing this because so much of Star Trek is exploring new ground. But given that's their home, I hadn't considered it from the perspective of that's them seeing their home for the first time. And
00:17:53
Speaker
Yeah, I like it. I feel oddly more touched about the whole thing, emotionally talking about it now than I did at the time of watching it, perhaps because I hadn't considered it from that perspective. Yeah, that makes sense.
00:18:12
Speaker
Then I think we go into the sick bay and Harry and Tom have to report to the sick bay and we meet some guy who's obviously going to die soon because he's not very nice. I don't know if I knew it worked that way in real life. You get a little bit more about all hints of like Paris's background and what he did. Although I'm not very clear to be honest.
00:18:32
Speaker
And there is also the whole thing that he's like pilot pilot error, and then he covered it up. And then he sort of
00:18:43
Speaker
The way in which he sort of explains how he, you know, was found, it sort of seems one isn't sure whether he's being sarcastic and saying, oh yeah, yeah, and then I told people, or saying, oh yeah, do you think I'd tell people? And it seems a little bit ambiguous whether he actually did, you know, fess and come clean because he was feeling guilty.
00:19:05
Speaker
and is now just regretting it because of all the trouble he had afterwards or whether he's trying to sort of cast doubt on the idea that he outed himself for whatever he did. Yeah there's something about his attitude and his acting which is like I'm not really hate myself but I'm gonna think the lowest of myself
00:19:24
Speaker
than you, because if I think of myself very lowly, no one else can think lower of me. He's got quite this edge. He tries to act up to people's lowest view of him, while feeling that it's not really him or fair, all of these sorts of things, but f them. I get the impression that he
00:19:48
Speaker
He knows that everyone's going to think it anyway. So why bother? Why bother trying to say, well, I made this mistake and this is why I covered it up, but I didn't mean to, or I feel bad about it, or it was a mistake because everyone's going to prejudge him anyway, so why not go with the flow?
00:20:09
Speaker
Um, then I think we have a scene that you were kind of referring to earlier, Jamie. Oh, why am I getting a work notification? Um, in the ready room with Janeway, and she's talking to, I think her name is Mark.
Janeway's Personal Journey and Leadership
00:20:20
Speaker
As I said, I just blocked the scene up because I'm like, well, that's not gonna happen, but you have some thoughts.
00:20:28
Speaker
Uh, with Mark? What the hell? I think his name is Mark. The guy and the dogs, who, like, who... Oh, yeah, sorry. I mean, yeah, that... Maybe that says a lot about how little it's supposed to be, but I... Maybe his name isn't Mark, so that's not according to Mark. Let's call this guy who... Who is January's fiancé. Um, his name, we don't know. Let's call him Mark, just in case we're wrong. I think it is Mark. I'm not sure either.
00:20:55
Speaker
So Mark, I thought it's interesting because it's like the first scene in which we see a fair amount of Janeway and interactions with crew. And perhaps there was, it was injected there as a way of sort of, you know, not having Janeway as this one dimensional character who's just strong captain the entire way. But, you know,
00:21:21
Speaker
making clear that she has feelings and is a feeling person. And it's not just a big adventure for her. She has actually lost things and has skin in the game if they do not force, for instance, the caretaker to send them back across the galaxy when there's the opportunity to just take the station and let the K's on, have it after.
00:21:48
Speaker
So it does sort of position her as someone who has, you know, quite a lot at stake as opposed to just being this one random, not random, but one faceted person. Doesn't that make sense? Yeah, that makes, I mean, I 100% understand because now, I mean, I don't, I listen to a lot of podcasts and read a lot about like writing TV or producing TV and writing scripts and the stakes is 100% the word. I just don't believe the stakes, I guess, because
00:22:17
Speaker
Maybe that's more about my personality, but obviously they're trying to show that she has a connection, something tying her back to Earth that she'd want to get back to. But for me, I didn't really like, I was like, whatever. But I'm the single person who's like, so maybe that's coming. So for you, maybe that was more of an impact, but I was just like, ah, whatever.
00:22:41
Speaker
I think they had to do that. I think it's kind of a plot device because otherwise, how can you not blame her for making the decision to not take them back to destroy the array because she didn't sacrifice anything.
00:22:56
Speaker
She looks to show that she's making a sacrifice. Exactly, yeah. Otherwise you're gonna hate the lead protagonist, aren't you? She's done something selfish because she's happy to go off on an adventure. She's got no one back home when the rest of the crew have all their family. That is a good point, Jamie. I think Jamie has raised his hand.
00:23:16
Speaker
Yeah, I just realised I've got a hand-raiser thing and after, you know, a month or so unemployed, I realised I'd probably go back to Zoom protocols to get back used to doing that before I'm, you know, presumably gainfully employed sometime next century. Because of course, you know, being unemployed is why I'm on this podcast.
00:23:34
Speaker
Great, so can you do the editing? I mean, do you truly want me to do the editing, Red? That might be a mixed blessing at best. I wanted to know, did you guys think that Agent Mark, as we're calling him now, felt like a believable partner for Janeway? Maybe that's why I don't believe it, he was a bit old.
00:24:02
Speaker
Yeah. Not to be ageist about this but he looks a good 30 years older than her. I didn't believe it either but I think for me it wasn't an age thing, that didn't even register actually. I didn't believe it because I didn't believe that was the kind of person that she would go for because the brief period, the only conversation we got from him, he was running around looking after her dog and it's quite a sort of passive submissive
00:24:31
Speaker
like, role in a relationship, I guess. And I would imagine someone like her, I mean, not because it's a tract, but I would have imagined her with someone a little bit more like her, like Chikote, I guess, someone who was also a leader. Like Chikote. Yeah, that's really... Why does no one ever imagine that was too voc?
00:24:57
Speaker
because they're such good friends. I could have literally said anyone there. I just wanted to sort of stir the pot. Oh yeah, he is also married. Okay, so in the interest of a little bit of, well, we might have to do it in a separate recording, but I think then Harry and Kim come into the ready room. I mean, Harry, sorry, Harry and Kim, Harry and Tom come into the ready room and report to Janeway. And this is the whole scene where Harry calls her ma'am.
00:25:24
Speaker
Yeah, but we're not at crunch time yet. We're not at crunch time. I love that. So ma'am is acceptable in a crunch, but I prefer captain, which I really love. And then as you say later, he calls her ma'am and she's like, it's not crunch time yet. Yeah. But do you notice that there's a bit quite a lot of continuity there? Because then right at the end, Paris calls her ma'am and they are in crunch time. So she's like fine. Ah, I didn't notice that. But I did like that. I mean, this is a whole other podcast, but I feel like
00:25:54
Speaker
historically, men have been like, oh, we can't promote women because what will we call them? Just to sum up in one line, some history and she's just like, ma'am, it's okay in a crunch, but I prefer captain and then problem solved. Ben, I think we moved to the bridge and there's some more awkward Tom Paris interactions with people who don't like him. And it's not much time yet.
Starfleet Hierarchy and Leadership Qualities
00:26:21
Speaker
And then Voyager is off and that's in about 15 minutes. So this might be a long podcast. And the only comment I had from like the whole full double episode was the one right at the very end. So we know we could get to that one. Well, Jenny, you've already said quite a lot. So whether you have a comment, yeah.
00:26:37
Speaker
I know. I have a lot more to comment on when you guys are talking about it than actually just sitting watching it. I had nothing to comment on. I'm entirely riffing off the things that Red comes out with. Apart from Cartesian dilemma, which I wish to pose you guys about this. Cartesian? Cartesian? Cartesian. No, Cartesian.
00:26:58
Speaker
Dang, you've got me doing it. It's not Kardashian. It's not to do with the Kardashians. It's a Cartesian dilemma. Which I'm a bit like, how do we know one particular thing? But anyway, carry on. Then we moved to the canteen and we have a funny kind of like soup scene where Tom Paris is trying to order just plain soup from the replicator. I'm sure as a kid, I was obsessed with the idea of having a replicator. Oh, I thought we'd all have them.
00:27:23
Speaker
And literally, I didn't even watch Star Trek, but I thought we'd all have some. What happened to 3D printers? I mean, we don't even have those in our homes. Then we find out a little bit more about him. He's a son of an admiral, admiral, admiral. And then he thinks Harry's going to ditch him as a friend and Harry's like, I can choose my old friends.
00:27:45
Speaker
Yeah. Is this the scene where Harry basically asks him, is it true, you know, his pilot era, but, you know, and he sort of casts shade at whether he actually did fess up. So yeah, it was a good scene. I liked that.
00:28:02
Speaker
It doesn't sort of immediately position him as someone who, you know, is wrongfully maligned, but it does leave enough space for it not to have been entirely his thoughts on him to be both a possibly redemptible character or possibly one who's just morally repugnant and there's still enough sort of space there, which I quite liked. Yeah, that's true.
00:28:25
Speaker
I mean, he's young and eager and keen, but he's got backbone, I guess. And also that sort of...
00:28:35
Speaker
again that friendship you talk about it sort of starts to introduce that sort of moral solidity that I think I get the impression Paris relies on increasingly or get some sort of validation from getting it from Harry. Harry's belief in him makes him believe in himself and you know all sorts of things like he then sort of
00:28:57
Speaker
I don't want anything to happen to Harry at crunch time and these sorts of things. It sort of positions the fact that those are going to happen and makes them believable when they happen later on. Yeah, that's a very good point.
00:29:12
Speaker
Yeah, although I have to take issue with one thing here. It's very understandable in relation to what Paris says to Janeway when they're about to go off and try and look for Harry later when he's disappeared later in the episode.
Technobabble and Mysteries of Space
00:29:28
Speaker
I want to come with you or I want to come with you on the away mission to try and find him. You know, it's because I care about Harry. And she says, okay, then surely that is not the way to run away mission. Good points. They've had for a little bit of emotional steak and you're potentially emotionally compromised. I'm gonna, I'm gonna push back slightly because I think I, when I watched a Star Trek at 2019, 2019, I feel like I learned a lot about good leadership and, uh,
00:29:58
Speaker
as crazy as that sounds, and also like hierarchical structures, which never made sense to me before. And don't you think that she would want to give Paris a chance to grow and redeem himself as a
00:30:12
Speaker
I mean, no one can guarantee that's what the writers were thinking at the time. I think that's a valid way to work around it and say, but she's the captain and so therefore she gets the final say and she's thought, you know what, I want to give him this opportunity. He's developed a relationship with one of my crew who's potentially going to be a good role model for Tom. Have they even been on the ship for 72 hours by the point that she makes that decision?
00:30:42
Speaker
No, but she knows Tom's Paris background. Tom Paris' background. Yeah, she was like with her father. Science officer on his dad's ship, wasn't she? Yeah, so she probably knows all about him. I mean, it wasn't the episode, you just had to watch. I know, but that was something that again, I was like, don't need to know for the future.
00:31:00
Speaker
She probably gave it a lot of thought before she even went to the penal colony. That's true. Can I kill two birds with one stone here? Can I use him as a tool to find the marquee but also is it an opportunity to allow him to redeem himself? I'm not sure I get that vibe. I'm not sure I get that vibe actually. I don't know if I agree with that but it's okay to disagree.
00:31:28
Speaker
I don't know if she goes there with the express intent of sort of redeeming him or, you know, doing his old dad a favour by giving his son a chance. I'm not sure if I get that vibe. It's possible. It's an interesting, it's an interesting unknowable and it's a perspective I hadn't sort of taken to. Do I believe
00:31:49
Speaker
Captain Janeway set out to redeem Twomparos from the start. I'm not sure set out, but set out to give him the opportunity because she probably knows his story and is like, does he really deserve to be, you know, I don't know, in a penal colony? Looking at my notes, I was like, why does he- New Zealand's quite a nice place.
00:32:09
Speaker
So why does it say porridge? But that's just my handwriting. It says bridge. So now they're approaching the Badlands and the displacement wave is coming. And I think at this point, I noticed that the techno bubble begins.
00:32:24
Speaker
The Star Trek Technobabble. Yes, Jamie. What are the Badlands supposed to be? Because no one actually really sort of specifies that. I sort of felt that I would get some sort of response like that. I think the Lands are like, I'm just looking for where my key high hang out. Would I push back on that? Was it? Isn't there like the Badlands and the Lion King?
00:32:52
Speaker
Yeah. Are they strictly speaking lands as they're being flown from via spaceship? No, you're just being annoying. I'm using myself. Let's do it quickly. You guys went quiet when I went to a new tap. Oh no, I haven't plugged in. I should have plugged in. One second.
00:33:18
Speaker
The Bradlands was a region of space located in sector 0470 of the Alpha Quadrant. A segment of the border between the United Federation of Planets and the Cardassian Union was located in this region, according to memory Alpha fandom. And are there really plasma storms in space?
00:33:36
Speaker
I don't know. I'm not an expert. I've just wanted to see how far we could take your Googling capabilities on this one. Yeah, we need another person to do this podcast who has some sort of... Been this podcast for more hours long, guys. That's okay. I'm cool with that. I think we accept at face value what happens in space.
00:33:54
Speaker
I mean, we do have a friend with a PhD in astrophysics who we could bring to sort of validate some Star Trek science for us from each podcast. Maybe we can have like a footnotes episode and you can write down these questions and then get them to answer all the questions. I have a lot to say on the sciencey bits that are more to do with health and biology and viruses. Physics and everything else. I'm noting down footnotes questions for the astrophysics.
00:34:25
Speaker
podcast, which is a great idea for podcasts. Yeah, definitely. We can definitely have a questions. So then I guess what I didn't quite realize a lot later is that Voyager and the McKeeship gets hit by this displacement wave. But you know, so they're both
00:34:40
Speaker
impacted and then we kind of come back and we're in Voyager and we can see the carnage and the kind of effect and again some more annoying characters are killed off and we see the array for the first time. Does anyone know what an array is? No.
00:35:03
Speaker
I've googled array millions of times but array like means like so many things like array and like software programming is like a group of them. An array of antenna? Yeah you can have an array of antenna or array of like I think solar panels or something. Yeah of space installations. Hang on. Array is just a very vague word I've got to be honest. I don't like to criticize Star Trek. Space array.
00:35:31
Speaker
No, I Google space array and actually nothing. Can I can I share screen here? I don't know. I just get when I go for space array, I just get loads of satellites with various solar panels and arrays of antenna facing out to space. Just like a collection of
00:35:57
Speaker
tech. I don't know what it is. Yeah, I think so. So that's just the image. Let's see. Okay, how do you put a space in an array? That's not what we mean. How do you get an array? NASA successfully installs new rollout solar array on space station. No one seems to actually... What is the dictionary definition of array?
00:36:22
Speaker
I think it's just an arrangement. An array is a systematic arrangement of similar objects, usually in rows and columns.
Humor and Viewing Habits
00:36:29
Speaker
Okay, that's closer to me understanding. And people also ask, what does array mean in space? And apparently from the early 1960s at NRAO, astronomers knew they needed an array of radio dishes to complement the work of giant single-dish telescopes. An array is a group of several radio antennas observing together, creating
00:36:50
Speaker
In effect, a single telescope many miles across. Did you look at the array and think single telescope? I feel like array is maybe like a collection of things to strengthen the thing. That's kind of what my... Cool. Apparently you can say something like an array of solar panels. So it's just lots of them in a row, presumably. I would say anything, an array of people.
00:37:17
Speaker
It sounds more technical than the space arrangement of stuff. It's always not quite known. And then at 21, around 20 minutes, we find out, I guess in that scene that there are 70,000 light years from home.
00:37:35
Speaker
Yes, I'm always impressed at how calmly they all take it. You know, this is an everyday at the office kind of situation. You know, this is just another problem to solve. It's true. That's true. True. But I mean, I mean, which how many Star Trek series have there been sort of prior to Voyager?
00:38:02
Speaker
Well, it was the original series and Next Generation, I think. One, two. Any others? And then DCS9 was kind of around the same time? Yeah, because you've got the Cardassians and that's... So they've had three series of people just doing absolutely insane stuff in space and learning how to sort of keep their SH1T together to, you know, cope with random things like, you know, we're 70,000 miles from home.
00:38:29
Speaker
Yeah, but I think actually Jenny has a point. I just let that go. I was like, oh, wow, that's quite serious. Have you ever seen a Starfleet crew absolutely lose it in any situation? That's why I aspire to be like the Starfleet crew. They do occasionally lose it. And the things that they lose over are surprisingly small fry compared to finding your 70,000 light years. What sort of stuff?
00:39:01
Speaker
I don't know. I need to, I need to have a think about that. I feel like Chiquote has a couple of losing it moments that are surprising. He lacks the discipline of a, you know, probably grounding Starfleet officer. Maybe that's it. Yeah. Does Janeway ever lose it? I'm trying to think. No, she's awesome. But maybe I'll be proved wrong when we rewatch. But then did you notice the ad break? Sorry, just as someone who, I don't know,
00:39:30
Speaker
from a TV nerd but after that scene was the ad break but they obviously know ads on Netflix. I bought it on iTunes so I couldn't say. Mine was on Prime Video, yeah I didn't notice any. Maybe they can't you know I mean I don't think you already noticed it sorry again small because I read about script writing and stuff like oh that was the ad break back in the day that's when they were showing the ads. I mean I don't like to mention the platform that I watch it on but iTunes is such a great app
00:39:58
Speaker
Do you want sponsorship? Because we're not going to do it. I might sponsor this podcast with my other side hustle. I'm not saying that I want iTunes and Apple to sponsor us, but iTunes is just such a great app. Your Netflix is also pretty good. I watched it on Amazon. I wish I hadn't said that now. I don't want to advertise Amazon.
00:40:21
Speaker
I mean, it's just another great company. It's just the world's top ebook app. Well, I think we have all our bases covered. So if we ever get any kind of listenership, they'll all come crying. We'll just have to edit out all the other platforms and all the other companies that aren't sponsoring us.
Holographic Experiences and Narrative Devices
00:40:44
Speaker
Funny. I'm going to whisk through like after the, um, the kind of
00:40:51
Speaker
assessing damage and stuff, we find out the engineering chief is also dead, opening the path for another character later on. And the Doctor? Yes, well, Tom Parris and Harry Kim will go to sickbay briefly. And something that I've realised after watching many, many episodes of Star Trek is that the consoles are already deadly.
00:41:12
Speaker
People are always- Yeah, they explode, especially for something that's supposed to have bio-neural circuitry. Yeah, really, really deadly. Anyway, and then we find out a warp core breach is imminent. And then we got the EMH. The medical hologram. Yes. There must be- I love the way he just starts treating Harry Kim as a nurse. Oh yeah, that is good. Jenny, you want to say something?
00:41:42
Speaker
Oh, I was delayed. I was thinking about how much fun it must be to film these explosions. Everything's lighting up and there's fake smoke and everyone's running around. It looks like fun. I actually I was listening because I told you I really listened to like the Delta Flyers episode when they covered this book caretaker. And
00:42:07
Speaker
They were discussing the fact that after their first one or two episodes, a woman, I think, I'm assuming a woman, Kim Friedman, was coming to direct the third episode. And before she arrived, she sent them all a letter and a video, I think, of how to shake
00:42:23
Speaker
in space like because she said you guys are acting really well but none of you are doing the correct shaking like you know when the ship like stop where the voyages like impacted or when there's an explosion or whatever she's like you guys are just like static there so she sent like specific like instructions on how to shake and there's like if you need any help go to anyone on the crew or the cross of deep space nine and they'll help you oh i love that yeah that's a
00:42:52
Speaker
Was that the random little known fact? No, that's saving that for later. Is it better than that? No, I don't think so. You have to get lessons and like... So how do you shake it? That's why we're recording the video. I think it's important that you share the knowledge that you do have on how to shake properly in space. What were they doing that was so wrong?
00:43:14
Speaker
Well, I don't think they were moving. That was step one. You'd think that is part of just general acting lessons, surely. Well, I had a shake in space. Or just any impact, you know, if you're in filming a car crash or... So, like, how would my shake in space differ from, like, if I was on the Channel Ferry and we hit rough weather and I'm sort of jolted over?
00:43:38
Speaker
Probably quite similar, quite the same. Yeah. Yeah, because they've got gravity on the ship. So it's the same as a crash. Yeah, as you say, a ferry or a plane. Interesting. Possibly. That is really funny. Sorry, we've gone off down a... No, no, I just had to show you how it's great because you'd have been born. Yeah. But we mean the emergency medical hologram. I mean, now I feel like it is important to mention this guy's name, Robert or Bob Picardo, because he is great.
00:44:09
Speaker
Does he act in scrubs? Or is there just a character that looks really similar to him in scrubs? The lawyer? Oh, no, that's different. Yeah. Yeah, the law isn't the lawyer. I have a feeling he is in scrubs, though, something. Maybe he has a guest. Yeah, like a guest appearance, possibly. Oh, I can always check. And then something else in a gloss over, but I think Janeway gets the warp core stabilized.
00:44:36
Speaker
I was like, she's genius, obviously. Easy, easy, easy. I didn't have too much to say about that. But then people start disappearing. Yeah. People are being transported.
00:44:52
Speaker
Yeah, and then if memory serves, and then they all sort of find themselves with like a random needle going into them. Is that right? I remember correct. There's two scenes. First, we see them on like a farm, what I think of as a southern farm scene. No, no, no. Before then, they're getting the needles. No, no, that's off to them. Oh, is it? Oh, okay. Because I think some of them are on the farm and some of them are in that kind of sick bay area with the needle in them.
00:45:20
Speaker
yeah because i i'm always of the sort of how do they know that this isn't like the matrix and everything after that isn't like a massive hallucination or you know hologrammatic projection of some description or other yeah well a farm scene is a hologram but that's what the tricorder is for yeah
00:45:43
Speaker
Well, no, no, no, hang on, because if someone basically puts you under and puts you in this weird sort of matrix-style thing with the random needles, you can all imagine the massive sort of rows of humans in canisters that are like that matrix scene where Neo sees reality first time.
00:46:03
Speaker
Just in case some of our viewers aren't, there may be some people here who were born after 1990. I've made them all watch The Matrix. No one is allowed to watch the Star Trek podcast unless you watch The Matrix. But how do they know that they're not still under in some sort of drug-induced hallucinatory experience in which they're all sort of hallucinating this alternative reality
00:46:33
Speaker
Well, doesn't that remind you of another episode that's coming up, Jenny? Because I think there's someone who's like, well, that's the Cartesian dilemma I have with it. That scenario definitely happens at least once in other episodes. But the thing is, I don't think they do know that. They just have to get on with it. Try and work out what's going on. And I think in the other episode, we're still at the array and everything's just, you know, some mass computer induced experience.
00:47:04
Speaker
There's one where they're all, turns out they're all sleeping as well. They're in some kind of alien induced sleep dream. They keep trying to get out of it and discovering they're in the dream still. I mean, there's no way of experiencing that in real life as the weird sleeping gas I could get pumped in because I sleep badly.
00:47:22
Speaker
I don't know. I recommend magnesium oil or taking magnesium supplements. Give that a try. They can also sponsor us. Which company magnesium supplements would you recommend for me, Red? I'm taking a beauty pie magnesium supplements, but I think I take the better health magnesium supplements. But better you or better health magnesium gel oil also.
00:47:52
Speaker
Jenny, I want to ask you a question because I feel like maybe this is not a popular opinion, but I don't like it when the crew are like in Earth-like settings. Oh. I don't like it when someone uses deviled eggs to try and seduce someone if they find it vaguely arousing. Was that in this episode? Yeah, it's amazing. It's like the bit where she's like,
00:48:20
Speaker
Hey, don't go into the bar. Do you want some more deviled eggs? Wow, again, I was just brushing past that. Well, when that happens and then Harry Kim says she's not real, Tom, I'm just like, as if he cares. That's not going to stop him, is it? Exactly.
00:48:38
Speaker
Yeah, in fact, there's actually like, well, not amazing, but like a scene in Red Dwarf, which was sort of parodying that where Lister is just constantly, not Lister. Is it Lister? Yeah. Yeah, he's just basically constantly going off to the hologram suite for detective sort of holograms where he's just constantly getting off with these femme fatales.
00:49:09
Speaker
So yeah, Tom Paris would not be the only one to take advantage in that respect. Oh, no, definitely not. But the Earth question. Yeah, I mean, I'd ask why. I don't think I get that. I'm trying to... I think it's usually quite interesting when they go back to Earth, because you're like, oh, you get to see them on, you know, the home planet. But, you know, as long as it's not, you know, the whole episode, because you didn't want to see them on Earth, do you?
00:49:37
Speaker
Okay. Wait, why do you not like it, Red? I think, I mean, I love Astartic Voyager. I'm not here to criticize it, but I think sometimes they're like my least favorite episodes are episodes like where they live in like Ireland in the holodeck because the scenery and setting is all like very earth-like. And I guess maybe I'm not. Yeah. And they just seem like the contrast seems like very high between like
00:50:07
Speaker
have a dress and whatever.
Biological Experiments and Character Development
00:50:09
Speaker
And then sort of seem to be acting naturally, even though they're all dressed in space uniforms. Yeah, that's I can get over. But it's more just like they kind of look out of place. But this, this sort of goes back to what I was saying. Sorry, Jenny, I talked across you.
00:50:26
Speaker
No, I was gonna, I was just gonna say that I agree with that. Interestingly, like, I find the ones where they're in the holodeck for the entire episode, slightly less interesting. But when they're actually back on Earth, in real life, I find that quite interesting. It's just because you learn about them and their backstory and their real life off the spaceship, whereas in the holodeck, it's you know, it's all just not real. So it
00:50:51
Speaker
away from the investigate. To me for this one it sort of added like nice variety and like different places that they're in and contrast in the episode but the very few Star Trek episodes that I've watched where they're like primarily in an earth setting as a kid I was always like I watched this to watch people have fights with space lasers this is not it. Yeah maybe that was my attitude.
00:51:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's always interesting to just get everyone else's opinions. Then I guess this thing is like they're looking for the rest of their crew members, they get some life signs in the barn, then all those like creepy neighbors materialize. The hologram in the barn is disrupted. I'm not even sure why. And we have that needle that you're talking about. They're lying there. So creepy. Yes, very creepy.
00:51:47
Speaker
And then when Harry, I'm not skipping quite a bit because my notes here are not very good, but when Harry is suddenly like under the needle and then he screams, it's very distressing. It's very effective, I have to say, like quite. Yeah. I also have so many questions about the, the.
00:52:06
Speaker
biological aspect of this whole experimentation. I'm just like, how would you experiment on species to try to find if they're biologically compatible with you to mate? But then from those experiments, they develop a fatal disease.
00:52:22
Speaker
I can't imagine that's the good scenario in which he's way beyond human technology. So I just have to, you know, suspend my problem. And only two of them. Well, yeah, but also theoretically, he can't be both simultaneously way beyond human technology and not if
00:52:40
Speaker
He infects, you know, he gives them all disease, but the most... I mean, actually, I don't have anything to go on the next episode. They're cured of the disease. Are they cured of the disease after this episode? Or during it? And if so, how? I think they're cured by those, like, that mold that grows on fruit trees. Does that help them?
00:53:02
Speaker
I don't know. I don't see any bit where they like take it. There's almost no reference to them getting cured in this episode.
00:53:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's a good one, isn't it? Continuity question. They sort of assume that the way Bolana mentions when they're trying to climb up to the surface, she says, you know, or possibly Harry says that the only way we're going to survive is if you get us back to our ship, as if she knows they can be cured by the doctor. Oh yeah, by the doctor. She doesn't really know. She's just assumed. Yeah. Why would you assume that Starfleet had the medicine to cure this?
00:53:37
Speaker
Well, I mean, it is a good assumption. Well, they're pretty good. Yeah, and the encampments are like, obviously, like they're giving them herbs to cure disease, like, so you'd assume they're a little bit behind the times. It's like bringing a pen knife to a gunfight for herbs for this disease, obviously. But not to just like, you know, be down on some medicinal herbs. I'm sure that's possible. What are you trying to say here, Red? Nothing. Don't really forget that. I just say lots of medicines come from plants, right?
00:54:08
Speaker
So then I think, again, just kind of rushing slightly, but they kind of, everyone wakes up back on Voyager, almost everyone, and they realize it's three days later. And they kind of, Tom kind of early on realizes that Harry's missing. And then the McKees are also missing, Bolana Torres. So Janeway suggests cooperating to Chakotay, because I think cooperation is her favorite term.
00:54:36
Speaker
her favourite method of solving problems, which I like. Oh yeah, so the crew of the Maquis ship beam across to Voyager, and then at that point, Tuvok confesses to Jokote that he was actually there as genuinely security officer and has been feeding information back to the Federation, I guess. Jokote seems to take that very easily and very well, mostly to give himself the chance to have a go at Mr. Paris.
00:55:05
Speaker
I think he hates him more. Well, I guess he kind of elucidates in that scene. Why? Because he understands that Tuvok is doing his job, a job that he understands and relates to, like infiltrating the enemy, getting information. But he assumes that Tom Harris is just motivated by some selfish motivation. Honestly.
00:55:32
Speaker
Um, prejudice. We find out more about the away from two book, but I can't remember what more of that is because I didn't write it down in my notes. That pulse would be energy speeding up. But yeah, any, any, anyone else remember? No, but I just think that being able to send energy in that way without any sort of conductor would solve an awful lot of energy problems here on planet earth.
00:56:00
Speaker
Oh yeah, they're always going on about distribution, aren't they? Yeah. I'm quite surprised that the caretaker, being so advanced, can't just send him the amount of energy he's all in one go. Yeah, or sort of just pre-program the array to continue sending. Because he doesn't want the Ks on to get the array.
00:56:21
Speaker
I mean, again, it's a pretty advanced system. Couldn't you just, in fact, I'm ruining it. I'm like the guy who goes around saying that's not Santa when there's a fat man sat in, you know, red. But I mean, I think those are... Sorry, I'm ruining it. I mean, overall, I never really love pilot episodes. I think this pilot is okay. As I said, I'm never going to really say anything bad, but there are probably more gaps in this episode than many others because they've got a lot to achieve.
00:56:49
Speaker
Yeah.
Caretaker and Galactic Species
00:56:50
Speaker
And I think, you know, it's a good, it's a positive thing, actually, that you ask so many questions about why this and why that because it's because they do such a good job of making it, you know, science fiction, like it is based on real, real world science. So a lot of it is kind of logical. And you know, episodes that are based on diseases or viruses that they follow a pattern that we do know in the real world. And
00:57:17
Speaker
I assume it's the same with the tech side, I don't really know the physics side. So I don't know, I think we'd be doing them a disservice if we didn't question it and discuss what's possible. Yeah, that's a good point. You know, they might well have an answer if we were to talk to the writers. Yeah, that's fair, that's fair. I still have my unresolved Cartesian dilemma about the whole sort of, are they still in the matrix thing? We're not watching the matrix, so why do you have that?
00:57:46
Speaker
the matrix metaphorically. So not the literal matrix. I have a big question, which I'll be interested to see if you guys don't like either this didn't occur or that you see an obvious answer. But it is right at the end of the sec of part two. So I don't know. Should we show wait? Okay, let's keep going. I think then Jamie realizes that the rake and they can use the rate to send them home. So she wants to go back, I guess to negotiate or chat to the
00:58:16
Speaker
what we find out as a caretaker with Chikozi and Tugwakan plus a plus one, I think. And Tom volunteers and we kind of discussed that he wants to he feels some kind of kinship with Harry or feels like he wants to help. And then we see Janeway in discussion with the caretaker who's
00:58:39
Speaker
He was quite funny. He's like, aren't you contentious for a minor bipedal species? I love that load. Could I just ask, in the context of the Star Trek universe, what constitutes a non-minor bipedal species? What are those people called, Jenny the Diva hunting?
00:59:04
Speaker
Yeah, they're really, oh, scary, horrible thing. Are they non-minor? No, yeah, they're major. What makes them major, as opposed to say, like, a species like, and I'm going very tenuously here, say the Cardassians, the humans or the Romulans, or
00:59:27
Speaker
What makes the huntery ones who were still not named? Oh, they were terrifying? Yeah, they were terrifying. Yeah, but with the case, they could describe them as a contentious, minor bipedal species. He might. He might think all bipedal species are minor. Because he was just a big blob in the end, right? And then a very little blob.
00:59:54
Speaker
and then a little bit of rock. I think the Herosion, for example, aren't they, don't they have like a massive expanse of space? Yeah. A bit like the Borg, they own loads of like, planets, I don't know, or they used to. Does anyone actually say they're a little minor bipedal species? Huh?
01:00:14
Speaker
Does anyone actually say that the erosion are a non-minor? No, because they don't use exactly the same words. I agree with red. I would count them as, if you're looking for a non-minor by better species, they're a good example, I think. You will meet them. Okay. I hate that. I can't get over how much more aptitude you guys have on your sound than I do. Anyway.
01:00:38
Speaker
I must let it get to me. It's not about size, Rhett. It's what you do with it. Wow, that doesn't even do anything. OK. I don't know, mine's not that loud either. Jamie is like the father bear. You're the mother bear. And I'm the baby bear.
01:01:05
Speaker
Baby Bear, can we move the Star Trek podcast away from minds bigger than yours sort of comparison with audio bandwidth? Goldilocks are the three best, anyway. What was anyone else thinking of? I don't know. Right, then we see Harry in the alien sickbay, and I think we see a bit of telepathy, because those two companies are like, you're a cave, and we don't actually see them talking, right? I think.
01:01:34
Speaker
And then there's like, because there's that bit later on where the senior accompanist talks to Kes, and she's like, they can't talk telepathically, that's rude. And I really like that for some reason. I think it's great. Social nice discount. But yeah, there isn't much, I mean,
01:01:56
Speaker
presumably telepathic species aren't that frequent in their universe, that someone talking to them telepathically wouldn't be commented on. So a bit like they seem to take this in their stride very well. Well, they were a bit out of it. I mean, do you mean Belanna and Harry? Yeah, yeah. When they're missing base, just sort of waking up to the fact that they've been abducted, needled, found non worthy of, you know,
01:02:22
Speaker
providing children for the caretaker and have a deadly source of mass walk disease. Having a bad day. It's a pretty bad day, yeah. I think in terms of character, we see, well, I kind of forget, but they don't actually know each other yet. So it took me a while to realize like, later on, they kind of
01:02:37
Speaker
introduce each other. But at this point, we do get a hint of some of Volana's anger issues, as I will call them. I don't know if that's, but she's, you know, she's like, she's fighting, she's trying to escape and Harry's more just like taking in what's going on around them.
01:02:53
Speaker
I don't see anything of Bologna's behaviour to suggest an anger issue that would in any way be negative in any situation. Not negative, just she was more angry. They do introduce her quite bluntly, I feel like. It's really on the nose, you're a half-ling on. Angry half-cling on. She's immediately, you introduce her and she's immediately angry.
01:03:14
Speaker
And then she explains this because of her half Klingon, and then she immediately says, you're right and calms down to show her human half too. So it's nicer, nicer, yeah. Is this a bit racist to say that Klingons aren't capable of self control? Klingons are famously battle fierce and brave. So I don't think that's
01:03:37
Speaker
Yeah, but in this instance, she's not being presented as battle-fierce and brave, she's being presented as irrationally angry. She's not irrationally angry, she's very rationally angry, but it's just like... Kim isn't angry, we don't see his irrational for not being that angry.
01:03:53
Speaker
Maybe that is irrational. He's like trapped. Yeah, and actually, in a lot of scenarios, Bolana's response might be more successful. Yeah, you know, she's been kidnapped and trapped. And if she was click on, she'd have more, a lot more strength than most species. So to attack her kidnappers, and so why does she view that level of anger on her part negatively? That's what I'm trying to say. So I guess it's difficult for her to like sometimes
01:04:21
Speaker
If she was full Klingon, I mean, this is my theory, and lived amongst Klingons, her behavior wouldn't be interpreted negatively. But because she spends most of her time around humans, she has to kind of control it, work harder to control that because she can't just lash out at people because they're not just gonna lash back, they're gonna be like, oh, why, you know, that was inappropriate or whatever. The one sentence, you will never hear of Star Trek, that's inappropriate.
01:04:52
Speaker
I bet you'd hear it on the over. That's possibly not human so much as British. No, that's true. That's true. I mean, not to me, but I'm sure I've heard Americans going, that's inappropriate.
01:05:07
Speaker
Yeah, but not to me, just again, to be clear. Sorry, was that too... That's how I... I love that. It's just, you know, that's inappropriate. And that is how it's going back to what you said earlier right at the start, read about how in the Star Trek universe is how you imagine the adult world when you're a kid, everyone's just sensible and decent and, you know, tolerant of each other and patient. And that's why it's so wonderful. It's such a shame it's not more like that in the real world.
01:05:37
Speaker
Is there a me too moment in the Star Trek universe? There is actually. Oh, it's quite interesting. Um, that was written by Jerry Taylor, cause there's Jerry Ryan who plays Seven of Nine and then Jerry Taylor. He was a writer and she wrote it, but yeah, it was an interesting interview with her because she didn't really, I don't think that was necessarily her intention.
01:06:03
Speaker
Uh, but there is an episode that again, all these things, I guess they're common themes, right? So these names crop up again and again. I mean, are you thinking of the same episode with, um, seven of nine maybe. And she.
01:06:15
Speaker
Well, I didn't want to jump ahead to a future podcast, but I'm interested to know which one that is. I think it seems like there's a few that touch on that. But yeah, Seven and Nine would definitely feature in that one. She would make sense. I also think that going back to Bolana, that there's an episode later on where you sort of find out a bit more why she might be
01:06:39
Speaker
she sort of hates half of herself. And that's part of her character arc, you see later on that she learns to love her Klingon half too, because there's benefits to the Klingon
Humanity's Significance and Character Reflections
01:06:48
Speaker
half. But because she grew up in a, you know, in a human world, she's grown up thinking it's negative. It's, you know, about self acceptance, isn't it? And also, now that I think about it, she did have parents who like split up
01:07:03
Speaker
You know, like, so that's something else that can feed into someone's view of themselves or their anger. I mean, I know she's like an adult in this show. So maybe that's, that's a bit of a reach, but it's like, there's, it's not just the Klingon aspect. It's maybe feeling abandoned by a certain parent or.
01:07:20
Speaker
you're not coming from an unhappy home. All these things, I believe, can impact. And she blames herself, doesn't she? Yes. As lots of kids do, as their parents break up. And the way she blames herself is that
01:07:35
Speaker
She claims it on her Klingon half, scaring her dad away. She was a human, but in the real world, that happens. And you aren't half Klingon. It even happens to people who aren't in any way Klingon, my goodness. Yeah, but I'm sure that's really interesting. I can't wait till we get to that episode.
01:07:56
Speaker
Then I guess the kid digger gets irritated with these minor bipedal species people and sends them back to Bishop. Can I just do one last thing about that? Do you know what, it's hilarious comment and it's a great line, but also I just love that they introduce that as a concept, you know, there's not this, I feel like sometimes nowadays it seems like
01:08:24
Speaker
there's this narrative of humans are amazing and brilliant and we should be very proud of ourselves. And it's just, I think it's very nice to see, I don't really know why I can't articulate it. The concept of no, we're just, you know, one of many, you know, it's a, it's a
01:08:43
Speaker
miracle, I guess, not miracles, not the world, it's just complete chance and evolutionary chance and that we're here at all. And that we are just like a minor speck in the universe. And I'm glad that they sort of feature that in, you know, there's loads of aliens that they meet, not just the caretaker that just see humans as like, you know, one of many.
01:09:10
Speaker
I agree. I mean, it's a bit like the phrase or the phrase that he uses, but like gives that sense of like seeing the earth from space and realizing, I guess, not that I've done this, but you get the impression of realizing, oh, how insignificant or because yes, I agree. I think.
01:09:28
Speaker
And life is much better when you just accept that, personally. Yeah, and celebrate the things that are great about human. There's a lot to be proud of, for sure. Or being part of the Federation, if not human. But also just have a bit of humility at the same time, no matter how successful the Federation is in peacekeeping and technology and anything, you know, eradicating poverty the whole lot. Like, there's still always going to be other things out there that aren't understood.
01:09:57
Speaker
It sort of is nice because it means that the Voyager crew isn't plot armored by always being able to fall back on
01:10:09
Speaker
I don't know, what would you call it? Decisively superior technology or decisively superior something to get them out of trouble. No, as you say, you're just one of this multitude of species in a massive universe and you're not so exceptional that there's a decisive sort of force difference to you and you and everything else in this area. So I like that. And also, I guess the human problem, I mean, it's the Federation of
01:10:37
Speaker
plants and species, right? So through cooperation, not just... It's eight o'clock, guys. I can keep going. I mean, you know. I need battery, I think, before we keep going. And then I might lose arms themselves on Christmas tree. That's okay. Just give me one second. Your Christmas tree is not terrifying. I like my Christmas tree.
01:11:08
Speaker
Why did they both go out?
01:11:57
Speaker
Thank you.
01:12:43
Speaker
Hello. My gosh, I'm trying to read some of my notes. And I can't. Just working out that apparently you need headphones to be able to hear people.
01:13:03
Speaker
Sorry, is it okay to drink whilst doing this? I'm having a glass of wine, so I'm actually drinking it quite slowly. I'm very impressed with that. I've been on this call for an hour and a half. I'd just like to point out that what I'm having, Australia Galicia, is a bloody good beer. Great ad. Great ad. Great beer. Australia Galicia.
01:13:26
Speaker
I think I'm drinking some Chardonnay from McGinn's, whatever it's called. I don't know. The one in Sainsbury's. Oh, is that McGinn's from Sainsbury's? I don't know if I've even said it right, so... You're not going to smile to us. Right. Jenny, Jenny, what brand of beer are you drinking? Is that Australia Galicia, again? It's kind of like... Don't offer my accent. It's a word. Back to Star Trek. So...
01:13:58
Speaker
was a bit of, like, back and forth. But I guess the important thing is we here... Oh, my God, I wish I could... Oh, yes. There's, like, Janeway's log and also Janeway, I think, is talking to Tuvok. And Tuvok has analyzed the array and he thinks
01:14:15
Speaker
that Harry and Balana on a planet, the fifth planet, I think, on the surface of the planet. It's an M class planet, but it has no water. So there's been some environmental disaster in the past. And Jane really talks about how she got a call from Ken's mother. I mean, another important backstory element, the clarinet. I think it comes up again. Oh my goodness. Yeah, many times. Yeah, yeah, many times. At least once.
01:14:45
Speaker
I always love to see... I feel... Jamie's gone. At least you're in the same house. If he doesn't come back we can find out. Jamie! Sorry, there was just a bit of an echo because of an open door. Oh, you know we've lost your video.
01:15:09
Speaker
I'm aware of that. I turned off my video so that everyone didn't see me, you know, prancing around in this podcast in a shirt, a full shirt and boxer shorts. The Zoom look. I'm in full Zoom work mode, yes. Everything below the waist is completely inappropriate.
01:15:28
Speaker
And on that note, I just want to say, I always, again, love, okay, I guess Janeway is one of my favorite characters. Two Buck is one of my favorite characters. Obviously Janeway and Two Buck are together. Always going to be one of my favorite things. But I do love their friendship and their respect that they have for each other, even though they're quite different. And we learn a bit more about
01:15:50
Speaker
Balkans because she was like, Oh, your family's worried about you. And he's like, Balkans don't worry. And she's like, they miss you. And then it's like, okay, fine. I do know what crosses my mind whenever I hear that one is I think of missing someone as emotion as well. Yeah, I was gonna say that like, aren't they supposed to... But they do have emotion.
01:16:10
Speaker
Okay, cool. Sorry. As someone who identifies quite strongly with Vulcans. I think it's like, they have emotions. I think in the history, they had like very volatile emotions. And it was like, very difficult for their species until they like got control. But I think they, it's illogical to worry about someone because you worry doesn't achieve anything. Oh, I see. How does missing someone achieves? Missing is still an emotion. But it's,
01:16:40
Speaker
they're very logical. So there's like no point in someone worrying about what's happening to you because they can't affect or change anything by just worrying. No point in missing someone because you can't affect or change what's happening. Oh, missing isn't trying to do that. Nor is worrying. It's just an emotion that you experience. Worry is a thought pattern. Is it?
01:16:57
Speaker
I don't think worrying is an emotion. Yeah, you know, I think what they actually say, now I think about it, is that so she, he says, when she says, they are worrying about you, he says, I think you've missed, you're wrong. They wouldn't be worrying. You wouldn't perceive them as worrying. And she says, they miss you. And that he accepts because they're not showing an emotion of missing him. It's just that the fact is they miss him.
01:17:24
Speaker
Yeah. Could that be the way? I see where I can think of that would make sense to me. So I'm like, how is worrying different from missing in a emotion? What is I I'm not convinced by this chain of logic, to be honest with you. That's okay. So I think it's wise to move past worrying and missing or not.
01:17:51
Speaker
I can feel worried. It doesn't mean I need to be worried about anything in particular. No, that's anxiety, which is... Is it? Yes, it is. I also think maybe it's just like, Lord, they miss him as in like his physical being is not there and therefore he is missing from the family unit. And in that sense, it's not an emotion. But obviously that's not the way January meant it, so actually.
01:18:20
Speaker
Yeah, maybe we have to, I'm sure this will come up again. Um, because the whole logic emotion thing is always interesting. Uh, I think then we see a debris field and we know about 43 minutes in, so just saying that. And we see, we meet Neelix, who I do love. I don't think it's a character I don't love, but um.
01:18:44
Speaker
Yeah, I am like really, really sort of impressed within 30 seconds of being a bloke who will literally sell his motor metaphorical behind for water. He's managed to manipulate an entire Starfleet crew into bribing a hostile techno barbarian race to save his girlfriend and get her out without actually sort of mentioning any of this. He's pretty effective as an operator. Yeah.
01:19:14
Speaker
He's an effective operator. And then they're like, yeah, we're at the end of the episode, they're like, yeah, we're going to trust you on board, even though you've managed to basically declare war with the case on to save your girlfriend. That's not bad going. I'm impressed with that. I think that sums it up very well.
01:19:31
Speaker
I think he's got street smarts, hasn't he? He's like the antithesis to T-VOC. He hasn't got the sort of logical intelligence and academic training and all this stuff, but he's got the street smarts. I do find it a bit weird that T-VOC as like first officer is going and doing the whole towel thing.
01:19:50
Speaker
Oh, yes. Well, I just before we get there, maybe there was a funny line, which I thought was great. But when Captain Janeway introduces herself to Neelix, did you? Captain Janeway of the Federation Starship Voyager Neelix is like, very impressive title. I have no idea what it means, but it sounds very impressive. And I also love it. I could be Neelix in so many situations because I don't get titles. I've never understood police titles, army titles, captain titles.
01:20:18
Speaker
And when he's egging up the fact he's about to ask her for a bribe to basically help them out, and he builds up and builds up and builds up to it, and you're expecting it to be something along the lines of powdered unicorn mixed with ground dragon's teeth, and Captain Joe is like, yeah, what is it? What are you going to ask him?
01:20:39
Speaker
water. I love that. I think as a kid I probably was so thrilled by that because it was like so clever because we take water so for granted and it makes you realize how alien I guess there's space or places because water is like this. It reminds me of Dune. Did you read the Frank Herbert books? It's a sci-fi series that is, oh you should read them Red, they're fantastic and actually that a lot of people say a lot of Star Wars and all kinds were sort of
01:21:09
Speaker
took a lot of inspiration from those. It's all in other planets and it's an alien race and everything but it's desert planets so water is like I don't know what the equivalent is it's like gold dust you know. Oh yeah it's a bit like Tangle. What is Tangle?
Cultural References and Series Experiences
01:21:30
Speaker
Ah, it's a classic. We can watch that. I'm loving how many random cultural references to niche series are just sort of coming out here. It's reminding me to watch stuff. Do you know earlier when we were talking about the leadership thing and were there any other programs during that period? And I was like, I agree with it. There's hardly any. Did I walk across my mind though, Buffy?
01:21:51
Speaker
I could never get into Buffy, certainly. Whenever we talk about sort of new series from SIFO, there's always one that I want to watch and never quite get around to watching, Cowboy Bebop. I really, really want to actually watch that. I've never heard of it. One of my best friends adores Buffy and then my sister and her boyfriend actually watched Buffy recently and they loved it.
01:22:16
Speaker
I think one of the lockdowns I tried and I'll try again one day. Well, maybe it's one of these things that part of the reason like Voyager that I love it is because you grew up with it. That's the thing. It's hard to tell objectively whether someone else would enjoy it or if it's just a sentimental thing. Well, Gabby hadn't watched it before and she loved it. So from Neelix, I think we kind of get a hint that this whole bringing ships into this Delta Quadrant, is it like
01:22:45
Speaker
has happened before. So we started to understand this, this is something that's not happened. Um, a little fun fact for you. I don't know if you noticed, cause he was up on that like big screen. Uh, if you saw his eyes, um, he has enormous Oprah. Yeah. His contact lenses were our hand painted. Oh, they used to hand paint the contact lenses for him. Um, and he wore them for like,
01:23:12
Speaker
most seasons, but I think towards the end, you have to stop wearing them because they're like damaging his eyes. But hand, I mean, well, I find that. Yeah. It's a hell of a costume here. There's the facial prosthetics. He did have to, I feel like, again, during lockdown or COVID, I got deep into some of this stuff. And he definitely probably had to be on set. I think he had to be on set at like 4am every morning or something to get into costume. This prosthetic and makeup done.
01:23:43
Speaker
Oh yes, and then when Nelix is transported across to Voyager, and he's like, has his arms raised, like waiting for this like, spiritual moment, which was quite funny. There are moments when Nelix reminds me of my dad. Oh, this is exactly a dad thing. Okay, then.
01:24:09
Speaker
Just imagine my dad reacting in the same way. Oh, that's great. Brings good dad energy to, I could imagine mine as well, to be honest.
01:24:17
Speaker
And then, yes, the bath scene. So, Neeluks, Neeluks at Tvok. I mean, Neeluks comes across as a bit of a hoarder in this particular scene because he's sort of hoarded like all these sort of floral jars full of water piled on top of each other. And then he's sort of hoarding water in this bathtub, surrounded by yet more jugs of water.
01:24:43
Speaker
You know, I have to, yeah, I didn't actually, I mean, I knew, I kind of got the impression he was making the most of his time.
01:24:52
Speaker
Neelix and Tuvok remind me of myself, Mia's Tuvok, and my friend Tammy from South Africa. Because I think I was always like the very serious, like, okay, enough fun, everybody. This party is not for fun. We can't suppose to be doing this. Law-free spirited. And so they always remind me of some reason. She would probably be horrified to hear that. What? To be described as the fun free spirited one?
01:25:21
Speaker
Yeah, that's very insulting. That's very insulting. I'm like, I'm surprised I had new friends. I definitely I did for a two book, not for this for different reasons, though. Not not this sort of non fun. Jamie, that noise.
01:25:36
Speaker
Sorry. Sorry. But yeah, I think the reason I did identify the two book is, is not being able to understand some human behaviours that are not logical. I often find myself wondering why someone's doing something because it doesn't make logical sense in everyday life. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I think, I think he's a great character. I think he's played so well by Tim Russ, who I wanted to get my photo taken with.
01:26:06
Speaker
And then he didn't turn up, but then I had it with Nana visitors, so I can't complain. Um, then I think we are back on the surface of the planet. Uh, and Harry and like the Lana kind of meet properly and she explains, I think we covered this, you know, she's angry cause she's half. Um, and we,
01:26:30
Speaker
yeah can i say just am i the only one who gets a slightly hobbit colony vibe from the akamba down there oh fancy hobbit yeah but totally sort of insular um you know very sort of i don't know they look slightly shazzy i didn't but i can see why you are saying that i guess and also i just remembered i actually have a microphone anyway next time
01:26:58
Speaker
That's what you get from a Hobbit vibe. Sorry, my brain. But I did love their, I know they were subterranean, but I love their subterranean surroundings.
Akampa's Self-Sufficiency and Challenges
01:27:09
Speaker
Yeah, they were really plush, weren't they? They weren't dark. It did give that impression of non-minor, non-bipeddle,
01:27:19
Speaker
Deus Ex Machina species has arranged this little environment for them to sort of see their way through the environmental apocalypse they've inflicted above them. It does give that vibe if they set them up in some mini eco paradise with massive waterfalls and light and things like that. Yeah, I thought it was really beautiful. What?
01:27:43
Speaker
does do we ever find out if anything happens to the main acompensate civilization after everyone leaves well i guess they'll have enough i guess that's well we can why skip ahead but as jane waste is in a speech to the caretaker they probably can take care of themselves you just underestimated them okay interesting
01:28:09
Speaker
Because she's all about self-sufficiency, giving people, letting people get on with it. And then I think at this point, we find out that Harry and Balana are actually quite sick, and their condition is serious, and no one else has ever covered that. We go back to Voyager, and Neelix comes up with a plan to go back to the surface at a specific spot where he knows
01:28:38
Speaker
He suspects that Harry and Ilana are. Does he actually suspect that or is that what he tells? Well, yes, I mean... Just to get them there to, you know... Correct. Insight conflict. Very good point. And then we have the away team, which is genuinely to go to Tom Parris, Neelix and Tuvok and maybe some other others.
Tensions with the Kazon and Rescue Plans
01:29:04
Speaker
And we meet the Kazon. And Kes.
01:29:07
Speaker
Yeah, I'm Kes. And they're the ones who wanted the water. And then I wasn't quite sure. Was it because Nirex had possibly stolen their water before? Because he was like, oh, I'm just returning the water I borrowed. But they were not that happy to see him. Yeah. And there's not much around how he and Kes are sort of an item.
01:29:30
Speaker
No, it's not much. And I don't think there becomes, there's not much later. It's just, you have to accept it as fact. Jenny, what are you? Yeah, I don't remember much about the backstory. Yeah, I don't think you get much backstory, to be honest.
01:29:44
Speaker
Yeah. I don't think there is much, you know, because she lives for like eight years, doesn't she? Yeah. They're not very good slaves or whatever. It's like I say, because they only live nine years. Yeah. Yeah, the caison really don't come across as very nice as, you know, there's that comment of they're dreadful slaves and they only live nine years. And then there's a whole, I've used every form of persuasion. Yeah.
01:30:10
Speaker
I know that it's a kess whose face is very, very bruised. Yeah, that's not... They don't seem like a nice cuddly species to be friendly with, do the caisson. What do we think about their hair? Entirely different. Probably their most positive facet. They remind me of coral. Every time I see their heads, I feel like I'm looking at coral. Yeah. Yeah. That's strange.
01:30:39
Speaker
Yeah, but again, we have to applaud Neelix for the adroitness with which he engineers a conflict between two absolutely alien species to him without knowing any of the emotional levers or drivers of the Starfleet crew and uses it to rescue his other half. That is just hats off, triplet. I can't be the only one here impressed with that. No, super impressed because he comes across as like kind of a little bit of a baffling
01:31:09
Speaker
Again, serious Hobbit vibes and not very many sources. I'm a Machiavellian spymaster vibe.
01:31:18
Speaker
I agree. So I think you summarized that up brilliantly. So I'm happy to move on if unless there's anything else. And then I guess we go back to Harry and Balana and they meet someone who kind of gives them those medicine and like tells them how they might be able to escape through these tunnels, ancient tunnels. And then we're back on Voyager and the sick bay and the next is getting I think the British say bollocking. Is that a technical term?
01:31:47
Speaker
And then, how rude is this? The Dr. Protes, because he's like the only one that should be in here is my patient. And he's like upset that Neelix and Kes are getting into trouble. Janeway is like, issues the Commod community to end holographic programs. How many times over the length of Star Trek Voyager will he go on to save her life, do you reckon? You know, I find it quite interesting in her story arc that she takes a long time to accept him as anything else than
01:32:17
Speaker
like, in my opinion, medical hologram. Yeah. Yeah, she's interesting. She really I feel like takes longer than I would have expected. But that's we can come up with that pizza. That's a great story. Yeah, doctor being accepted as a as a person. Yes.
01:32:38
Speaker
But she switches him off. She switches him off, she's like, I'm... You're not a person. Well, I like it because it covers two things. It's got the comic value. Because, you know, the Doctor is a bit annoying. Yeah, definitely. To switch you off is kind of, you know, cathartic. But also it shows right at the start, he is just like a toaster. Yeah, yeah. And she's the boss. And of course that dramatically changes when you look back. Yeah.
01:33:06
Speaker
Definitely. So he just made me laugh with he's a toaster. Someone at some point compares him to a toaster or he compares himself to a toaster. I can't really remember. Yeah, no, I mean, it does make it very clear that he's just for something you can turn on and off. But I was still like, wow, that's so rude. And I think they ask cares for help for finding these missing crewmen again. Well,
01:33:37
Speaker
and put on it. And then next we see them in the underground garden.
Telepathic Communication and Caretaker's Plan
01:33:43
Speaker
I got a bit of hazy here because some details I haven't said to start sinking, but they meet some accompanins. We have that telepathic moment again that you mentioned earlier, Jamie. Yeah, it's rude to talk telepathically to me when people can't hear you. They find out that... A statement from countless marriages. Sorry, Karen.
01:34:04
Speaker
Harry and Kim are at the central clinic. I guess some accomplants want to help them, some are resisting that for their own beliefs about what they think is happening. Although unusually, like the conservative, all we must respect the will of the gatekeeper faction come round pretty easily compared to some sort of sci-fi franchises in this one.
01:34:29
Speaker
because the chap saying, oh we disrespect the wishes of the gatekeeper, doesn't actively try and obstruct them after saying that once. Oh yeah, that's true. I think it's just a bit of a device for Kes to be able to give them all a look. Because then she comes and she explains
01:34:50
Speaker
about how the encampments have become completely not self-sufficient, just taking care from their caretaker when they should be able to take care of themselves. And it's a bit of a jumping off point for that. Is there some mention that they might have some more psychic or telepathic powers than are on show? And they're sort of dismissed as parents, fables and things like that. Well, yeah, I mean,
01:35:19
Speaker
the apothecral. Good word. I love the way it might be, you know, apothecal as it is from an apothecary. Because again, that's not to give too much away, but that kids' story arc, part of it is exploring some of those powers. Interesting. Yeah. Um,
01:35:47
Speaker
So now I think everyone is slowly making their way to these ancient tunnels, which have some security. So, um, Milan and Harry have made their way to the tunnels. Um, they're climbing up. Harry seems to lose hope at one point and he's like, it's my first away mission and I'm going to die basically. Cause he's not half Klingon. And then for the honest shares that she actually went to Starfleet and they have that little bonding moment over that annoying professor or whatever, which is quite sweet. Um,
01:36:19
Speaker
And then we find out that the array is changing behavior. So back on, well, I'm not quite sure where this happens. Actually, I'm going to make a note. But 2-ox shades is hypothesis that the case taker is actually dying.
01:36:33
Speaker
Um, and he thinks that explains everything that they've seen and then quickly gets it because she's like, if he dies, then how the hell are we supposed to get home? So I would like to suggest that Tuvok injects an awful lot more certainty into his hypothesis than is warranted by substantial nature of the information available. Listen.
01:36:59
Speaker
I was going to stand up for Tuvok because, as I said, but he gives a lot of evidence which I have lost over here. I feel I feel he falls short of the evidential standard you normally share in discussion, Red. And I am disappointed to find you lining up behind him in this instance where I feel he's let both himself and yourself down. For TV, he made too many points, I would say.
01:37:26
Speaker
OK, but he presents the hypothesis and progresses the plot. Yeah, because he's like, well, yeah. As I said, everyone kind of lands up in the tunnels. A bunch of them reach the top first. That's like Tom, Neelix, Harry, and Volana. Then the array sends some kind of power that disrupts or impacts the plant. And then Tom decides he's going to go back for the others.
01:37:54
Speaker
I thought Neelix had another good line here because you can see he's quite reluctant but he's like, if a fool needs company, like volunteering himself to go back. But I think he could see he doesn't really want to go back. But he does.
Character Depth and Rescue Efforts
01:38:07
Speaker
He comes across well this episode as Neelix actually. He's great. He shows more depth of character than you think just getting a feel for his personality from a few conversations early on.
01:38:23
Speaker
Yeah, I think I played him as a really good actor. But I'm not an acting expert, so I can't comment too much.
01:38:35
Speaker
Then in the tunnel, it turns out Kote's leg has been broken. So Neelix and Janeway get to work out and it's up to Paris to rescue Kote. So it's a ball banter. There's this whole...
01:38:53
Speaker
Yeah, he basically has tried to suggest to him, if he saves his life, I'm going to hold this overview for so long sort of thing. He reminds him of that at several points. Yeah. If I said your butt, your life belongs to me, I think it's one of the lines in this scene. Yeah. But it comes up again. Yeah. Gives him an opportunity, gives Chakotay an opportunity to then
01:39:20
Speaker
actually have to give Tom for his past mistakes. So they're going to have to be friends now. And it's a little bit sinister when they sort of get actually do get out and all end up back on the starship.
01:39:37
Speaker
And the captain basically says to Tom Barris, yeah, Chiquote is basically saying that if you piss him off, he's going to have you disappeared. Although it's actually put down as Chiquote says he takes personal responsibility for you continuing in the land of living. That is interesting to see how you interpreted that to mind. I mean, others may have far more positive interpretation that yes, does more justice to the spirit in which it was offered.
01:40:05
Speaker
No, I'm just so naive. But yeah, very back on Voyager, and I think we have the K's on. You don't want to let the hail of Voyager, they don't want Voyager near the array. It's like, I think it starts a fight scene or battle scene. Yeah. While they're fighting Jamie and Tuvok being back to the array, I guess you're trying to negotiate with the caretaker again. Yeah, he's dying. And that's when they have that chat, which I guess
01:40:33
Speaker
hints at what might happen in the future because he's really concerned about the the Akampa. He feels personal responsibility for what his species did unintentionally a thousand years ago. And there's an important plot device isn't there because he said I've initiated a self-destruct sequence to stop the Akampa being vulnerable to the K-Zone.
01:40:54
Speaker
the Kazon shoot a couple of times at the array and suddenly the self-destruct sequence is gone and he's like, you guys have, you guys, uh, Janeway and Tuvok, you have to take the choice to destroy the array to keep it out of, um, Kazon hands and protect their compa.
Janeway's Moral Dilemma and Leadership Decisions
01:41:14
Speaker
But Tuvok has previously said, yeah, I'll be able to activate it to fire us off back to where we came from.
01:41:22
Speaker
So it places the great moral choice of the episode on Catherine Janeway of does she get her crew home, but, you know, condemn 5,000 plus accompanins to living in effectively servitude at best, or just all being slaughtered by the Kazon at worst, or
01:41:44
Speaker
you know, does she protect them around her crew? 70,000 light years far side of the galaxy. And we also find out that the caretaker is from another galaxy.
01:41:54
Speaker
And also that he basically was getting people so that he could see if their genetics were compatible with his to breed from so that he could get a replacement him to keep looking after the Akampa. And it's all sort of wrapped up while in this dialogue with this massive sort of shiny gelatinous blob that's slowly shrinking. And I didn't think you could have an emotional moment with a giant gelatinous blob, but he manages it. Yeah, that was a brilliant summary, Jamie.
01:42:22
Speaker
Great. Can I ask my question about the tomorrow dilemma? Now, I had to write it down because it's kind of complicated, but here we go. If Janeway was okay to violate the prime directive by destroying the array to save the Akampa,
01:42:42
Speaker
Why not violate it to A, take control of the array, B, help the Ecampa to develop their defensive capabilities to survive without the care tiker so they can defend themselves against the caisson, and then C, use the array to go home with a self-destruct set for when they get home.
01:42:58
Speaker
So effectively turn them from the peace loving, isolated race with no arms capability into an expansionist, technologically correct race with arms capability able to conquer everyone in the area. All whilst holding on to the array against unspecified numbers of potentially plot armored caisson in
01:43:25
Speaker
potentially unlimited numbers in invading waves? I think that is a good question. I think maybe just the amount of time it would take to achieve that.
01:43:37
Speaker
I mean, for me, I think the uncertainties that Jane were faces of, how do you know that about 600 Ks on ships aren't going to turn up and force them off the array, sort of forces our hands slightly, it's a case of, and if you send your crew off, back to home, well, yeah, you are effectively
01:44:06
Speaker
giving that array to the caisson and thus, effectively, the upper hand over the account, aren't you? And because of the fact you don't know if the caisson are going to turn up in overwhelming force, so I can't believe I'm doing military strategy on one episode of Star Trek, I'm so sorry. It just seems a bit of a drastic action to me.
01:44:26
Speaker
to be like, well, this is the only option to violate the prime directive, destroy another alien's technology, strand the crew there. Is it a violation of the prime directive if that alien has already interacted with you? So was the prime directive not to interfere with
01:44:48
Speaker
natural force of aliens. Evolution. Yeah but she's not interfering with the occult. Oh they can't give them, they can't really give them like weapons. Yeah. Because they can't like disturb the balance of power. Yeah. I mean it's like doing the array doing that. Not really because it maintains the existing balance of power because the occultans remain you know unmolested and the kaison remain
01:45:17
Speaker
current hierarchy remains. No. Yeah, I don't think I can answer this question. I can just say I like the line she gave to Tuvok, which was like, we're never asked to be involved Tuvok, but we are. So she's like, cause when he was like, we should follow the prime director of this, but then acknowledging that they're more up.
01:45:38
Speaker
they would like to be. Yeah, that's the thing. I think it kind of it's kind of seems as if Tuvok is suggesting that course of action that I just outlined. Yeah. But they gloss over it very quickly in that one exchange. And I'm always curious as to why
01:45:54
Speaker
To me, that seems like the most sensible course. You know, you achieve all your objectives, like, you know, and if she's gonna, the only reason not to do that is because it's violated the prior directive, but then she's gonna do that, she's been violating it anyway, so.
Neelix and Kes's Decision to Stay
01:46:08
Speaker
She gets accused of violating the prior directive quite a lot. And then there's one episode where someone asks her if she's ever violated it.
01:46:17
Speaker
um i can't remember who it is but she goes something like um you know i've i've flirted with the line but never violated it i just think that can't be true that's not true violated it really time yeah different situation but uh we did skip a little scene which i did enjoy which was well i think it was before that which was when at kote um
01:46:45
Speaker
flies his ship into the big caisson warship and then is beamed up just the time that he nearly sacrifices himself. And there's that nice little moment as he steps off the teleport, he sort of comradely pats the Starfleet officer, which sort of makes you think like, oh, maybe they could work together. Maybe there's legs in this, you know, they combine forces thing.
01:47:11
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I missed that, but yep, that makes sense. Do you want to discuss that question anymore, Jenny, before we move on? No, no, I mean, it was just a question for you guys, really, because I wanted to, yeah, I was interested in your opinions.
01:47:27
Speaker
I think it's hard because there's such rose tinted glasses about Voyager that I'm always like, they did the right thing. She did the right thing. But one of the biggest criticisms of her as a captain is that she gets her crew stranded 70,000 light years away.
01:47:42
Speaker
But I've always, like, my response to that is like, that was the, they had to write something for, that was the whole point of the show. Like, it's not her personal feeling. It's like, it's not because she's a woman, they got stranded 70,000 light years away. It's because that's how they had to kick off the series. I mean, I really disagree with that criticism of her as a captain and a leader because, you know, how many people are there on board a Starfleet ship?
01:48:11
Speaker
The numbers change, but let's say 150. 150. Lives of 150 Starfleet people versus how many people are there in an incumbent underground colony? You said 5,000. I don't know where you got that from. I don't know where I get that number from. There's a straight up rational numbers choice there. That's not a choice.
01:48:36
Speaker
presumably not just numbers as well because it's their home planet isn't that it's the entire species potentially. Yeah her choice makes absolute sense to me I can't see why anyone can criticise her leadership on that basis if the choice was as stark as that. Well because if she followed my plan they would be safe and the crew would get home and the caisson would never get the
01:49:02
Speaker
array.
Voyager's Long Journey Home
01:49:05
Speaker
It's easy to come up with alternatives when you're not in charge. Yeah, but they have stayed there for long enough to militarise an entire civilisation. That's not a good outcome. I think they could have given them some form of defensive capability. But they're not allowed to give any technology, right? Yeah, that's true. Although they still apparently give water to loads of people. I think there are other episodes where they provide
01:49:32
Speaker
They help alien species defend themselves. They give them stuff to help them defend themselves. But I can't really think of examples.
01:49:46
Speaker
so they can hunt, but not actually kill people. But then I think it's backfires down the line. Actually, and there is another episode where actually it shows why they shouldn't do that. Because there's some long dead species that and they find a load of them asleep on the ground. They told that they just want to home, but then it turns out that really, they were scary, militaristic, aggressive species. And once they help them, they start to
01:50:17
Speaker
The Pandora's box. I guess. I never really know how to use that phrase, but they're understood. It sounded a bit like Saracen's fans, really. Back on Voyager, Jamie hails the case on and tells them once that she's going to destroy the array. Obviously, they don't like that. Polana doesn't like that either, because she says something like, who's she to make this decision? And then she's like, she's the captain.
01:50:44
Speaker
I have a bit like in the scenes that follow that as well you know there's this whole we're all coming together but why are they she says one crew a Starfleet crew and I'm like how do the marquee feel about that like surely they could work together without being like a Starfleet crew yeah that's an interesting point I think back in the day change management was a lot easier Jamie
01:51:11
Speaker
I'm just saying this is a pretty radical cultural shift to throw people who haven't really, you know, gotten behind the values pyramid. Yeah, but she has also done, I think she's like shown willingness by promoting Shikote as her first officer. You know, so if he is the first officer, then they are a combined crew. She already called them a staff group. That's an interesting point. But I think
01:51:37
Speaker
The reality is they're going to all have to function together under one system. And Cicote's lost a ship and he's a less small crew. So even if you're just talking purely in terms of like the... True. Interesting. I just quite like some of the leather clothing, all the mucky wear, that's all. I feel it's a loss to fashion that they turn into one Starfleet crew. That is true. That is true.
01:52:08
Speaker
But yeah, and then when you like find out that it's going to take them 75 years to get back home. It's a long time. Obviously she's going to try shortcut by the shortcut.
01:52:21
Speaker
Do you know one thing that I always would have liked throughout the whole series is if they could just be a bit clearer in updating us on how many years they had left. There's so many elements. This knocks off five years, this knocks off seven years. You forget where they are and how many years they've got left. It's just nice to know. To go back on Red's point that change management was a bit simple there. I just also feel that maybe they weren't into critical path management.
01:52:53
Speaker
I don't know. And we also didn't comment on the fact that Neelix and Kes decide they want to stay in conference January, but they should stay. Again, I guess because Neelix is actually an evil genius and can always get what he wants. You just need to look cuddly enough. Just look at those corgis. And Paris is assigned to the con. I also know that was a term I never really quite understood.
01:53:24
Speaker
Is that like control? It's the pilot, right? I don't know. Oh God, I've accidentally googled the wrong thing.
Casting Changes and Podcast Reflections
01:53:35
Speaker
Sorry. Instead of Google, I accidentally typed F Google, which sent me somewhere with a red background that I don't want to look at. You have the con meaning. Oh, it's C-O-N-N. I've got the con.
01:53:54
Speaker
Harzman, what does it mean when a captain says you have the con? Cons. Do you see your directing a ship you usually use with the verb to have or to take? The con of the vest. It must be like an abbreviation. Yeah, where's the etymology? I think it would be controls, wouldn't it? Because these are spaceships, but back when you had aeroplanes.
01:54:18
Speaker
it's it's it's from it's a variant of con from Middle English conduin condien from anglo-norman conduer and from latin conduco to lead bring or draw together you have the con basically means wow from that to direct a ship to superintend this wikipedia is amazing i'm so glad i donated 12 pound to about six months ago
01:54:42
Speaker
It asked me for three, but I donated 12. Wow. Wikipedia is a bloody great site. It's very informative. Okay. I just think it's a great website. Wikipedia. Yeah. I was ready to go with control. Wow. That's not like it at all. Wikipedia could be wrong for the record. It might be everything you guys say. What? We were supp- supposing. Suppositioning, in other words, better. Yeah. Interesting.
01:55:13
Speaker
So any comments or Jenny, was that your main question? Or did you have another question for the end of part two? That was my main question. Yeah, I just felt like she could have achieved all of her objectives. But yeah, I guess you can this. Counter argument, counter argument.
01:55:35
Speaker
She achieved everything the mission was supposed to achieve in retrieving Tuvok, which was the entire point of the mission in the first place. Mission complete. Checkmate. No one said it had to be in the same time zone. Yeah, no one even said it was a Starfleet mission. It could have just been you to retrieve Tuvok for your crew complement.
01:55:58
Speaker
Ah, well, I like that ending. We forgot to summarize the episode at the beginning, but I'm going to definitely do that. Um, I have one, did you know? Yes. Hit me. Did you know that Kate Mulgrew was not the original captain of Janeway? Who was? And they actually filmed, they started filming with someone else. Yeah. Wow.
01:56:26
Speaker
An actress called Genevieve Bourgeois, that is B-U-J-O-L-D, so I don't know how to pronounce it, it's French, a French-Canadian actress, who was in a lot of art house films in the 60s and 70s, so I'm not sure why she got cost. Oh, wow. Because the official reason why she left after one and a half days filming was that she couldn't take the pace of TV.
01:56:53
Speaker
television and production and filming. She has got quite a hard serious face. Yes, I think because they had a female captain, they're probably looking for someone who would be taken seriously. Interesting. You should read up on it because there are some things that I won't say on here because I obviously don't know if they're true or not. What does Wikipedia say about her that may or may not be true?
01:57:22
Speaker
just imagine it's a culture shock if you used to be at some art house movies to go into like broad like network tv or broad i don't know what the terms are broadcast television and apparently yeah one of the rumors was that she didn't like working with directors she didn't know like well then how's that gonna work because what happens when you meet a new director yeah a new director films every episode i mean they have like a rotation of directors but you know they some total random person can come in and direct
01:57:51
Speaker
Yeah, I learned a lot by listening to the Delta Flyers podcast, to be honest. I can always recommend it. Oh, it's a good thing you do because like otherwise, this would just be three ignorance and with you listening to the Delta Flyers podcast, it's two ignorance and someone who knows what she's talking about. No, no. That was amazing.
01:58:16
Speaker
Yeah, I really have fun. I've never actually talked about an episode that I've watched like in detail of about any series before. This is really interesting sort of dissecting it this way. Do you reckon you could do a parallel podcast on the way of water?
01:58:37
Speaker
No, I'm not right. Oh, that's just a film, right? Yeah, it's probably about five hours long. I don't know or care enough about film. Sorry. Jenny, Eddie, one, I listened to a lot of podcasts and sometimes they end really abruptly, which is something I want to try avoid. But any closing thoughts or favorite moments from the episode? Hmm.
01:59:07
Speaker
No, because I think whilst it does an excellent job of setting the scene, of establishing why they're there, introducing all the characters, all this stuff, I think there are later episodes that have really fantastic formats and one-liners and character development, so I'm looking forward to talking about those. But it's a good starter. I agree. And back to our artwork. I know you probably can't see on the screen now.
01:59:38
Speaker
but you probably saw it when you logged in. Did you notice it was three salamanders podcasting? Oh, yeah. Jenny, do you get the reference? I do. Although it's a bit dodgy.
01:59:55
Speaker
Yeah. Is the supplement the one where they're all like, accidentally having sex? I was using, do you know, Dali, whatever the, the text to image AI tool? Oh, no. So, cause I was like, well, how are we going to get like some cover album art in order to do this? And then I was like, oh, maybe I can experiment with that. It actually took a lot of tries to get what I finally, I mean, we can change it obviously. But then at some point.
02:00:24
Speaker
I tried like three people sitting on the edge of Voyager podcasting as it travels through space, but like obviously the three people didn't look like us. So it didn't make a lot of sense. I tried lots of things and then I was like, oh, what about Three Salamanders podcasting? And then I was like, maybe the podcast gets called like Janeway's Children. I don't think that's a good title just for the record, but
02:00:52
Speaker
I think the cover art is kind of funny, but we can change it. Great idea. We don't actually have a name for this, so give it a thought. It was fun to use that tool, but it actually took quite a lot of iterations to get something useful. Maybe we should incorporate salmon into the title somewhere.
02:01:15
Speaker
with the voyage of the Salamanders. Not that you know what I mean, like something. Yeah, actually I think that's quite good. So give it a thought. The voyage of chameleons. Salamanders. It has to be Salamanders. Sorry. Can't really pretend they're chameleons. Because then there's no reference to the particular episode. Sorry Jamie, this just alludes to a future episode.
02:01:37
Speaker
Which we don't want to give away because that's too good. I actually love the concept. I can't actually see the artwork because it's so tiny. Oh yeah. Okay. I'll send it. I'll send it to you. Awesome. I'll email it to you. I bet it's brilliant. We'll have a look. Let me see. Maybe we can email it right now. So we just need to think of a name.
02:02:06
Speaker
I must have given it some kind of name for now, but I'm sure I can change it. This isn't it, Janeway and Tom Parris' babies. Oh, right. Yeah, sorry. I didn't actually hear that. Sorry. No, I mean, you'll probably forget. I started looking up Ralph Bakshi on Wikipedia, who is not someone likely to sponsor this podcast, but did apparently pen a comic called Fritz the Cat.
02:02:33
Speaker
Oh, Cats. That's a whole separate podcast. Yeah. Cool. I bet there's a lot already on them. Yeah. I feel we should cease recording before we plan our Cat Podcast to avoid giving away the game.
02:02:48
Speaker
I've emailed you the image, I think. Thank you. Have a look. Yeah, that was fun. It's been a pleasure. Shall we stop recording and actually talk about how it went and read about our audience? Thanks for listening. Bye. Thanks and good night. Jenny. Do you want to say thanks and goodbye to the people? Jenny doesn't feel gratitude to our audience. They need to be more loyal.
02:03:16
Speaker
I'm sorry I was looking for your email. Thanks and good night.