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We watch "Projections" (S2 Ep.3)
16 Plays10 months ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Projections" in which the doctor tries to determine what is real and what is not when he is activated due to what appears to be a ship-wide emergency.
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Setup
00:00:00
Speaker
won't repeat what someone said and try and pass it off as my own thought moments after someone has just said it. This episode. Very intriguing intro. Thank you, Jamie. And that's a promise. Sorry. Hello, Red. Hello, Red. Oh my gosh. Hello, Jamie. Hello, Jenny. Welcome back to Jamie's Children. We are watching season two, episode three, Projections.
00:00:29
Speaker
It's been a while, but I'm glad we're back. We've managed to reconvene, obviously illness and unique brains and sorry listeners. Or more to the point, if you listen to us, to be outraged, you're welcome.
Discussion on Summary Format and Humor
00:00:48
Speaker
Right. Should we dive straight into the one minute summary? Oh wait, yeah, one minute summary, one cool thing, and initial reactions. What order should we take those things in? I mean, is it accurate to call it a one minute summary? No, it's never been accurate to call it that. Right. I was just going to say that I would summarize this particular one as
00:01:11
Speaker
hologrammatic technology being used to pose a unique Cartesian dilemma, and also to offer Neelix the ability to claim to be the angel of death. Sorry, face of death. Very good. I would summarize this as Natalie equals confused. If you just watch the episode normally, you're like, oh yeah, try to get it. When you have to make notes, oh my lord, I was getting very wrapped up. Yeah.
00:01:40
Speaker
How would you summarize it, Jenny? Walk the middle ground. Oh, I don't know. I didn't prepare a summary. Are we all doing a summary? Three summaries?
Astronaut Anecdote and Episode Focus
00:01:49
Speaker
Oh, no, no. I was just curious and I hadn't prepared one. I was just sort of ad-libbing. It's just the regular format of Jamie, Jamie doing a one-minute summary. So, um, before we do our initial reactions, I wanted to share something I discovered when I was listening to my other favorite podcast. My dad wrote a porno, if you haven't listened.
00:02:08
Speaker
I still need to listen to that. But they mentioned, they have this kind of like re-listen highlights kind of episodes at the moment. And they mentioned that they got a call from an astronaut on the International Space Station because astronauts are allowed to make a call to anyone in the world. I don't know if it's every day or like once a week or whatever, but to support their mental health, they can like say, I want to speak to Beyonce. I want to speak to
00:02:36
Speaker
Barack Obama or whatever, and NASA or whatever will organize the call. And this astronaut wanted to speak to the cast or the host of My Dad Wrote a Porno podcast. That's amazing. If you're listening from a space station, get in touch. We have the added benefit of actually being about space.
00:03:00
Speaker
I think this is awesome. How do you think we can boost our appeal to the astronaut? Should I sort of, I don't know, could I start reading erotica and a British accent that appeals to a unique subset of astronautica population? Would that work? That's one way, but I was thinking maybe just our regular podcast.
00:03:20
Speaker
I mean, when Phil's there would have been touch. We've gone beyond what 95% of podcasts do and actually done a series of something. And, you know, it clearly isn't working. I feel we need to expand. Yes, I think this is our 19th episode or something, which does put us on the 1% percent. But we need to crack 500. This is 500. How many others? Yeah, or 89.
00:03:50
Speaker
Are you saying that if we get 500 listens, we get to talk to an astronaut? You will give us permission to talk to an astronaut. Sadly, that's purely up to them. I wasn't saying what they say. I just feel that I haven't spoken to one because you haven't given me permission, Red. You don't give me permission to speak to an astronaut if I meet one in the street. I give you permission, my full permission at
Doctor's Storyline and Character Evolution
00:04:12
Speaker
all times. Really? Without even getting to 500 listens? Cheap date.
00:04:19
Speaker
Back to the episode, uh, projections, Jenny, initial reactions, cause I think this is like something, this was a good doctor episode. So what did you think? Oh yeah, it was, but I might disappoint, um, you guys cause I wasn't one of my favorite doctor ones. Um, I think this was a good, a good starting one. I think I prefer later ones. Uh, why wasn't it one of your favorites or, I mean,
00:04:47
Speaker
You don't have to say. I don't really know, honestly. I just wasn't very engaged. What do you guys think? It all seemed to happen to the doctor rather than... One of the things I've noticed about having watched ahead a few times is when there are specific doctor episodes, and especially in sort of the one where he was Beowulf,
00:05:12
Speaker
he almost, there's a character evolution of him taking control, if that makes sense, and approaching a situation in a unique and almost always characterful way. Whereas this one, everything sort of happened to him more. And it was, he was almost a passive participant, albeit one in the very strangest of situations. I mean, there were mind bending elements to it of being a hologram within a hologram of, you know,
00:05:41
Speaker
of a malfunction and the whole Cartesian dilemma slash inception premise of when do you know you've actually woken up or are in reality. But that's not really the doctor and not really what I think of as a doctor episode. Yeah, I wonder if it's because it has elements of the whole cliche of and then I woke up and it was all a dream kind of, you know, like it's not
00:06:09
Speaker
necessarily progressing the story or the series, particularly in that might, that might have been part of it. Yes, it's like, I mean, it's a bit like you're hinting at that line at the end when Tvok was like, Oh, it's been six hours or whatever. And he's like, apart from the computational function, it was a pretty normal day. Yeah. Yeah, I think Jamie, you pick up on a very important point, like thing about how, you know, the good stories are
00:06:36
Speaker
the protagonist sort of is driving the action, not just having stuff happen to them and them reacting to it. I don't know. I think my life's a good story, but I'm definitely not driving the action. We're not dramatic arcs in a movie. I just have issues with unqualified generalisations and have to respond in literal terms. But yes, I agree with you, Red. But yeah, my initial reactions was, as I said, fun to watch, difficult to summarise.
Exploration of Reality and Doctor's Role
00:07:05
Speaker
But I did like some of the very little moments of acting from the doctor, like when he's really like started to lose it. I thought it was good, but we'll come back. Yeah. I like Neelix asking Akazon if he was ready to look death in the face while he threw stuff at it. Yes, that was quite a humorous scene. So should we try get there with our
00:07:33
Speaker
kind of what, summary, a discussion, oh my gosh. I don't know, I'm feeling like I might be a bit scutty tonight. Oh my gosh, me too, but let's give it a go. So the teaser opens, I think, and the doctor is materialized or materializes an empty sick bed and no one is present, he's obviously annoyed, because I think he doesn't quite understand why he's been summoned. And he, I guess the kind of whole point of the scene is that he's
00:08:02
Speaker
Activated automatically. He tries to like, uh, call a bridge, uh, call, you know, see who's on the board. Uh, and the computer tells him that there is no one on board. So he's like, he's like something like that. You mean the ship's empty and the computer is like affirmative. So a pretty, I would say I would, I could have kind of relate, not relate. That's not the right word. I've never been on an empty ship in lots of space. But like to that sensation of like, well, I don't know, waking up or.
00:08:29
Speaker
coming somewhere and everything that you, everyone you expect to be there is not there. So that was like a kind of a mysterious opening. Um, but we go to act one and there's a couple of things that the doctor discovers. I think he finds a log from captain chain way, but there's no one aboard, no warp core, no systems online, including waste management, at which point he cuts off the computer. But that was quite funny. Um, all the escape pods are ejected. So there's no humanoids aboard.
00:08:58
Speaker
And he has a little sarcastic, sarcastic moment. Well, I'm glad everyone bothered to say goodbye. I love how there's always a degree of resentment from the doctor of, oh, nice of them to keep me involved. Yeah, exactly. Just a deep seated resentment.
00:09:16
Speaker
Exactly. So for a hologram, he has a chip on his shoulder, I guess. But at that point, I think he's contemplating deactivating himself and leaving a log, but suddenly there's some noise. He acts very scared for a hologram again.
00:09:36
Speaker
And Taurus forces a way to sickbay, I guess, through manually opening the door and tells him that he has to go help Janeway, who's on the bridge. And she shares that they were attacked by Kazon, who, everyone on the escape pods got attracted by Kazon ship, which honestly sounds pretty horrifying to me if you think you're about to make an escape. Especially on some of the interactions with Young 2 Vulcan preceding episodes.
00:10:06
Speaker
Uh, yeah, it remind me, uh, where to vote goes out to honor the spirit of his father, uh, and runs into a kid case on who, oh, yes, sorry. Oh my God. What's wrong with me? I'm so sorry. No, no. Um, and then I, I honestly kind of skipped over this book when I was watching, but then, so Torres wants to send the doctor to the bridge.
00:10:32
Speaker
The doctor, I guess, is like, how am I gonna get there? Because he's confined to sick marriage. He's like, oh, we've been testing out these hollow images on key floors or key whatever. So we'll be able to transmit you. But you'll be extra vulnerable because it's all a big experiment. I don't know. He does get sent off and Taurus is like, good luck. And I'm sure he says something sarcastic. But then he lands on the bridge and what are his first impressions?
00:11:02
Speaker
I mean, disaster zone, everything's trashed and... Yes, but he does say, well, it's bigger than I thought, which again, I thought was a more comedic moment. Yep. But the first person, so in act two, he's going to help Janeway and then Torres, and then he gets summoned to help Neelix. But the first person that he takes a pulse of on the bridge looked like Harry Kim. I mean, you can just see the back of him, but I'm like,
00:11:32
Speaker
Is Harry Kim? I mean, I already noticed this the third time I watched, so I think maybe I'm reading too much into it. But he manages to help Janeway. And at this point, he keeps going on about the tricorder or the tricorder not working or not picking up life signs. Is this supposed to be a clue? Because I never quite figured out the tie-in.
00:11:52
Speaker
Well, because if his tricorder is not scanning a human, then the thing that he's scanning is not a human and is presumably a hologram. So the first hint that the things he's coming across aren't what they seem to be.
00:12:12
Speaker
Except when he scans himself later, he picks himself up as a human. So why can't these hologram tricorders become hologram characters? I mean, there isn't a hologram that he's in. Sorry. What's it called? The hologram program is supposed to be a live person in a malfunctioning hologram that's, you know, destroying the ship or something like that. I think that's part of the confusion, though, because initially,
00:12:42
Speaker
if you're you're trying to guess what's going on initially you're like oh right well um possibly he's in a holo program because he's not picking up their life science so they are holograms and but you don't want to you don't want to give it again the game way too soon so then it confuses things more when you find out oh he's showing up as real and and not a hologram and and then it's utter confusion yes that is what that
00:13:11
Speaker
wondering. So he does manage to help Janeway, I think he brings up to speed about the cazon. And he's about to help her with some repair
00:13:35
Speaker
on the bridge when there's this frantic call from Neelix in the mess wall. Well, frantic, I can't really remember. So the doctor gets transferred to the mess hall to help Neelix, where we come across in this very entertaining scene, which Jamie, I feel like you will be able to describe very well.
Doctor's Identity Crisis and Plot Mysteries
00:13:52
Speaker
Well, it is effectively Neelix.
00:13:58
Speaker
I think the only adjective is bullying this cazon by throwing things at this heavily odd cazon, asking him how it feels to stare death in the face, while the cazon inexplicably doesn't turn his phaser, well, not phaser rifle, but rifle onto full auto and hose him down, which would be an action we could all get behind. I did like the... And I noticed that no one says that's not an action we could all get behind, which is telling.
00:14:29
Speaker
I did like some of the name calling. I think he called the caisson a pus-hog at one point, which was very creative. I mean, that could be a really cute sort of cat-like creature for all we know. We shouldn't, you know, draw conclusions beyond human cultural mores and extrapolations. Well, what did I hit? Could have been a really aggressive love scene.
00:14:52
Speaker
Yes, okay. I did enjoy, I did enjoy the moment when Neelix pops back up and I wish I could do impressions, but I can't, but he was like, missed me with like the case on, missed him in some way or other, I can't remember. Yes. Is it at this point that the doctor has that hilarious stunt where he like dives between those like kind of
00:15:13
Speaker
went like a window, but it's like legs. I thought that was very entertaining. Yeah, it's always entertaining when the dog to get to do action moves. I mean, I use this stunt. I wouldn't have called it a stunt, but since listening to a lot of these rewatch
00:15:33
Speaker
podcast. It turns out anytime an actor does something that's not really just standing and talking, it's considered a stunt. They are not in mortal danger. And it's like, oh, I got to do my own stunts. I got to fall down. That was me falling down or whatever you like. Okay. I'm glad they didn't have to call the stunt person for that. Um, but, uh, and also there was a kind of funny moment when Nelix thinks he's been injured, but it's just some kind of, um, tomato sauce.
00:16:02
Speaker
But then it turns out, actually, the doctor is bleeding, which is... Which is a real weird thing, because he's a hologram. The plot thickens. Yeah. So he's like, send me back to sickbay. I'm bleeding. And in sickbay, he realizes you can feel pain and he has life signs. So when he runs a diagnostic, he discovers that he is
00:16:26
Speaker
Lewis Zimmerman, the ship's chief medical officer. Can we just take a moment to appreciate how much of the doctor's name Lewis Zimmerman is? I just think it's a perfect name for someone who looks and acts like the doctor. That's true. Why don't you just choose that name first? It does suit him.
00:16:46
Speaker
Um, but this is all according to the computer. And so when he's looking at the computer, looking at the file on, uh, Louis Simon, he has that very funny line. I don't know if you remember it. Uh, when he's like, he looks a lot like me. He looks exactly like me. Computer, is this me? He sounds very confused at that point, which fair enough.
00:17:12
Speaker
Um, then Janeway enters with the Cazon and I think Nelix and Torres, uh, but they've, I guess it's the Cazon from the mess hall. And, uh, the doctor's kind of explaining what's going on. And she's like, Oh, maybe it's these new holo emitters. Maybe they're messing up. Um, uh, and when she tries to shut down the doctor's program, it doesn't work. And then she shuts down all the programs and what happens?
00:17:38
Speaker
Everyone disappears apart from the doctor. Yes. All Janeway, Torres, Linux and the case on Vanish. Exactly. And suddenly our connection with reality and faith in the plot that we used as our link to it is mercilessly dashed. Explain.
00:17:58
Speaker
Well, I mean, we all have the assumption that the Doctor is a hologram and that everything up to this point has been, as we have understood the Doctor being a hologram on the original Star Trek Voyager and this being a situation in which he is the hologram and everything else is reality. But then that link to that reality is dashed by the fact that all holograms have been shut down.
00:18:26
Speaker
And only the doctor is left, which means by definition, he is not a hologram. And thus our previous reality and its validity is distorted and disrupted. Almost as I think kind of giving the viewer the same sensation that the doctor is experiencing. Going down that Cartesian rabbit hole. I think this is where kind of the problem is that you find this happens
00:18:54
Speaker
what feels like quite early on to me. And then I think this is where it immediately gets a bit, because you know, there's some kind of like dream or fake reality or parallel universe or something going on. And the only character that is really in this is, is in fact, the doctor who we know, actually, it's a hologram and not a real human. So I think that's why I sort of disengaged a bit. Because you find that out quite early on. That's maybe part of it.
00:19:23
Speaker
I quite like the sort of later episodes where you do get one of the characters stuck on board and they don't know what to do and they're on their own. I think there's one with Janeway later on where she's a sort of Lara Croft Tomb Raider type figure, or maybe the character from Alien. I don't know. I never really watched that movie, but I've seen sort of clips from it. Anyway, I really enjoy those ones. But then they are based in reality, like some kind of ship-wide disaster has happened and then it's resolved.
00:19:52
Speaker
Well, when I say reality, obviously, science fiction, but you know what I mean? It's still part of the overall, like, story arc of Voyager. So, yeah, that might be why I struggled a little bit with this, even though, you know, there's loads of Doctor, which I normally love. I mean, I do hate the cop-out of, at the end of some films, where they're like, and they woke up, and it was just a dream.
00:20:15
Speaker
I think that happens at the end of Chi Chi Bang Bang. And honestly, I found that very disappointing because I really wanted to believe in a flying car. It's not a dream flying car. And also, it's a film. It can be real. Exactly. I think I get what you're saying. And also, I guess at this point, you kind of know that it's all happening in his mind or in a computer's mind. Yeah, it's a really tenuous thing to any kind of reality. To the reality of Star Trek Voyager, which in itself is
00:20:43
Speaker
This is very confusing. My brain hurts. For all the purposes of this podcast, we get treated as reality. The reality of that, yeah. Okay, so now we're moving into act three. We're going at quite a pace. I know we have the summary, but I had to make a lot of notes in between because I found that in the end I found the summary. It's one of these episodes where it's trying to summarize that things are happening in a specific order.
00:21:12
Speaker
but feel free to jump in. But it is funny, wait, again, I just think he had these little lines, which I thought were really funny, because now he's like, computer, what happened to Captain Janeway, Torres, Mr. Linux and the Kazon? He's just like clinging on to sanity, barely. He's like fighting. And that's that link with sanity that shutting off the holograms destroyed.
Barkley's Arrival and New Twists
00:21:34
Speaker
Yeah, and then he kind of, the computer's basically telling him that all his characters are
00:21:39
Speaker
all those people or characters stored in the hologram or in the other holograms. And so he's like, okay, what is going on? And at this point, a new character appears. Any comments? Yeah. So they, they, he's now identified himself as supposedly he is Louis Cinnamon, the original, the real life one. Um, and that he's in a malfunctioning hollow program. And, uh, the program is created by Reg Bartley on Jupiter station.
00:22:09
Speaker
Yes, at this point, this guy appears, Reg Barkley, who I think he said he's kind of beamed into this malfunctioning hologram. And we're kind of supposed to believe the doctor is this human being who's actually out on the space station somewhere. No idea of Voyager or anything like that. And we also find out that he has a wife. Well, hinted that he has a wife that does lead to some human later on.
00:22:36
Speaker
And basically this Reg Barty character, who... Does anyone recognise him? Because I do not recognise him, but does anyone watch the A-Team? Yes! He's from the A-Team! Oh no way, which character is he? He's like that crazy, crazy character. I need to rewatch the A-Team. Oh my goodness, is he seriously? Yes, I think so. Howling Mads, is it Murdoch?
00:22:58
Speaker
Uh, no, that's the guy. Or maybe, I don't know the character names in the eighties. Hang on, hang on. That crazy guy. Just look, I'm 18. Yeah, he's Captain Howling Mad Murdock. Oh my goodness. He's William David Schultz. Yes, yes. Howling Mad Murdock. Oh, why? No, carry on, sorry. No, I was going to say, what an absolute cultural icon.
00:23:21
Speaker
Well, the only reason I knew that because I didn't like pick it up with my own brain, but then when I was listening to some podcasts and they're like, yo, he went on to do very well.
00:23:30
Speaker
Well, probably if you had already had a career. I don't remember the way the A-Team was. But that's really ironic, though, that he basically stars in an episode in which the... Oh, that's such a cool nod, actually, in which the Doctor is doubting his sanity. Because one of the things that his character in the A-Team would do would be to pretend to be insane, to basically avoid capture by being in, you know, hospitals for the insane. So that's a really cool nod. I like that.
00:23:58
Speaker
Yeah. Jenny, you shook your head when we asked, have you watched the A-Team? Yeah, I'm sorry. I do. I mean, I've heard of it, but that's kind of my knowledge. I do think that actor is great, though, as that character. I mean, so he's got, if I remember correctly, he's the one with lots of crossovers, isn't he? So he's in, let's
00:24:20
Speaker
I'm getting confused between my Star Trek's the one with like Will Riker and Deanna. Yes, next generation. Is that next gen? Right. So yeah, so he's in that. And then he's got this whole story about hollow addiction. Yes. And then he crosses over quite a few times into Voyager. And like there's this whole thing later on about where he's sort of helped soon.
00:24:43
Speaker
get back to all kinds of things. So yeah, I quite, is this the first time that we see him? In Voyager, yes. Oh, yeah. So I mean, I enjoyed that because I think he's great, his character in his acting. Yeah, I'm sure he's a well-loved character. And just find that he hasn't linked to the A-Team. So he's kind of trying to explain everything to the doctor. The doctor's like,
00:25:09
Speaker
You mean the last six months have been a simulation and Bach is like not six months, six hours. And he's trying to tell the doctor that he's got hollow transference dementia syndrome. I wrote that down. But he's basically stuck in this hologram. Then they have that hilarious slapping scene. Did anyone else think that was funny when they're trying to prove to each other that they weren't human? People slapping each other is always funny. So you're preaching to the choir here. But as a slightly more sophisticated humor palette, how did you take it, Jenny?
00:25:40
Speaker
I've got to say, I did not get on board with many of the comedic elements of this episode in particular. I found them mostly like, I mean, maybe it was more the mood I was watching it. I was a bit impatient with them rather than sort of finding them funny. They're similar with the Neelix thing. I'm sorry to say the fruit throwing and things. Yeah, each to their own, I guess. It just didn't hit my funny bone. No, no problem.
00:26:12
Speaker
Fair enough. Um, but at that point, Barkley kind of beams back out or holograms back up. He's like, I need to discuss this with the others. Um, and the doctor at that point notices that he's hungry, though he's not really sure what for. So that's another new sensation for the doctor. Although he does get hungry in another episode. I just remember Jenny when he swaps bodies with seven of nine. Oh, and then he's like stuffing his face and drunk. Yeah.
00:26:42
Speaker
Um, and then it doesn't, so Reg is explaining that, um, he's basically giving him a choice between playing out the program, um, or facing destruction. Um, yeah. So when he comes back, yeah, exactly. Hmm. As the holodeck is rapidly deteriorating, I'm just reading this notes as well here, red. So the duster has to decide basically if he's going to like, um, blow up the ship is what the character
00:27:11
Speaker
Reg is supposedly asking him to do, to destroy the holodeck program in time to actually save himself from this dementia, which will eventually kill him if he doesn't do something to end the holodeck program. And in fact we find out he only has an hour, according to Barkley. So, exactly. Time is running out. As you say, Reg, there's always a time is running out feature. This is the format, so they get into some kind of scrape and at some point there'll be something that happens
00:27:40
Speaker
that actually makes this great, you know, time visit. There's a thing which says get out of the scrape in a set amount of time. Yes, exactly. I mean, I've watched millions of episodes of TV politely ignorant to this tactic or whatever. And then when I became more interested in like kind of writing,
00:28:02
Speaker
And then there's something that you kind of learn about. And I was like, no, you can't help seeing it. The clock has started ticking now. So moving, we're going pretty quickly. So moving into act four, the doctor is very uncertain about this order to destroy Voyager. And he's like kind of questioning Barkley's authenticity, because as he points out, and as we know, if you've ever watched Star Trek, this could be like an elaborate alien plan.
00:28:32
Speaker
I did enjoy the amount of like testing and questioning that the doctor went into to try and like his immediate, immediate stance is, well, clearly you're some kind of alien imposter and this is all nonsense. And then, and then, you know, he, there's a lot of proving that has to be done. So I did enjoy that element. I feel like I'd probably be that the same. It's very skeptical. It takes nothing on sort of faith. And I like that. That's very doctorish.
00:29:02
Speaker
Yeah, so I think the first experiment he does, kind of a barking suggestion, is scan the room with the tricorder and then you can see that beyond the walls is a hollow grid. I think is that the first thing? But the doctor's still not convinced because he's like you could kind of
00:29:18
Speaker
fudge these readings, I guess. Yep. And so then. They don't use that term in a Star Trek Lego. Um, so the next test or the next bit of evidence that Barbie gives is to throw him back to the beginning of the simulation. Oh yeah. Yep. So he's, he's basically convincing him that everything he remembers from Voyager's journeys,
00:29:47
Speaker
was actually a simulation as well and because he's taken him back to the beginning basically yeah kind of opening scenes he encounters the captain for instance moments before they're beamed off by the caretaker and gives her with some enjoyment oh you're about to be beamed off tortured and probed and by being called the caretaker moments
00:30:13
Speaker
Sorry? Well, banjo man. Banjo man, yes. Exactly right. And also just before that, he's kind of in segben, Tom and Harry Kimmel there. And I just thought there was a kind of funny nod to
00:30:30
Speaker
doctor already, even in this kind of stressful situation, being annoyed by Tom Paris. And then at this point, he thinks he programmed him. He's like, did I program him to be better?
Doctor's Existential Struggles and Dilemmas
00:30:40
Speaker
Um, they love to just throw that in. Oh, sorry.
00:30:45
Speaker
I'm not using my voice. I have, however, tangentially discovered a piece of information which is relevant to a question which we raised earlier, although only in the chat. Because in response to your suggestion, they may not have used the term a fudge, I, for viewers who cannot see, typed, does anyone ever say fudge in Star Trek? And it transpires that someone says Jiboolian fudge at some stage. Oh yes, I have heard of that. Which can be made to make cake.
00:31:15
Speaker
yes oh gosh is that in like deep space nine i feel like that's a deep space nine thing um i my information ends here because i was focused on the subject matter at hand i feel like there's a specific episode where someone has a blue jubalian fudge cake um wow like a birthday cake and then there's some really there's some really weird freaky dream episode where um
00:31:42
Speaker
Oh no, I'm thinking, I've got to put next gen on the brain tonight. I'm thinking of it next gen once again where it's Deanna and then she becomes the cake and the dream and then someone was slicing into it. It's really freaky. Do you remember that? Honestly, they did go to some very psychologically disturbing topics on next generation. I was going to go somewhere a bit less disturbing and ask of all the food that one comes across in the entirety of Star Trek.
00:32:09
Speaker
Is there any that leaps out as immediately delicious and appealing that you'd want to try eating? Yes, the ice cream sundae that you can make on the replicator. I'm joking, guys. Such a gimme answer. A banker answer, a bit of gimme answer. Well, I mean, I'm sure there is. Think about it. I mean, I like what they do. They sometimes just like put a
00:32:37
Speaker
out of space spin on something. So it'll be like tomato sauce made with tomatoes from a specific planet. So you, or, um, so it's kind of relatable. So it doesn't necessarily always seem that different. I think the Klingons eats food that moves. I don't think I want to do that. Um, maybe that hedonistic planet, probably the food there is pretty good. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:05
Speaker
Um, but yeah, so I think the final, or maybe the, I think it's a final plan or penultimate plan. The doctor is like, I need to confirm my true nature. I need to destroy the main holographic core, which I don't know what that is to prove his own existence. So I think this is like the, that holds all the holographic knowledge of the ship and all the programs and everything. But yeah, go ahead.
00:33:30
Speaker
I did wonder about that plan, because I was thinking, would that actually prove anything? Because if he's in the hologram, the holoprogram, the holoprogram would have its own fake hollow generation. And it's not the holoprogram's hologeneration that is generating him.
00:33:49
Speaker
Yeah. Good point, guys. No idea what Jamie just said, but good point. But again, we have like kind of another red herring, whatever, Oklu, because he's immediately able to leave sickbay and he doesn't dematerialize. So then he's like, well, I shouldn't be able to do that because these hollow emitters that we're experimenting with are offline. So you're like, okay, what is the truth here?
00:34:13
Speaker
And then he runs, he goes, they go to engineering, which I guess is where this hollow core is. And that's where they have this kind of scene, the smug scene is Janeway, where he basically predicts what's about to happen to them in three minutes. And so he does manage to destroy the hollow matrix, but he still exists. So, and the ship still exists. And then,
00:34:37
Speaker
I think he has this scene, which reminds me a lot of me speaking to my Google speaker, because he's like, computer, please tell me why I still exist and why the ship still exists. The computer's like, I don't understand your question. What are you asking? And he's just kind of losing his mind at the computer, which I couldn't wait to.
00:34:56
Speaker
And I think at this point, Barkley is just like, you need to destroy the warp call. That's the only way to bring it into this program. He's really obsessed with this destroying voyage. Is this the bit where the actual, because I feel like, because we're kind of almost near the end, but this is the first time that the reality actually comes in is when Chakotay now appears. This is the first actual realistic, this is Chakotay actually coming in to say, Barkley is lying. Don't destroy the warp call.
00:35:26
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly. Um, so I just wrote in my notes, Oh Lord, because I'm ready for the doctor at this point. Um, and yeah, so as you said, she's been projected into the holodeck and the doctor's like, that sounds familiar because that's the same story Barkley gave him, I guess. Um, and that destroying the simulation would end the doctor's program. So I guess.
00:35:53
Speaker
Now having some time to think about one guy is like trying to save the program. The other guy is like, if you do that, you'll end your program.
00:36:01
Speaker
And at this point, the doctor's like, just tell me what you want me to do. And I really did. I did feel for him there. I really did. It's like, it's so much pain, psychic pain. He just doesn't know what to do. And I guess that is actually a very difficult position for him to be in. He's not used to that. Oh, yeah, absolutely. He's used to certainty of diagnosis and treatment, which is, I mean, that's what he's programmed. He's not programmed for cases of an uncertain meta.
00:36:33
Speaker
Yeah, but Shokote says, like, just don't do anything, we're on it. And then his kind of disillusion continues and Barki's there, and Kiss, who's kind of as his wife, and she's now also telling him to like, save himself. And I think I did really like this moment for this line where there's this kind of
00:36:57
Speaker
maybe almost like angel and demon or whatever, you know, like these two people trying to persuade the doctors. Yeah. And the parking is like, how would you prefer to think of yourself as a human with a family or like as a hologram lost in space? Like you're our friend. Like it's not really about what you prefer. It's just like a, what you are. Um, and yeah, very, um, I just interesting thoughts there. I thought,
00:37:27
Speaker
And then kind of have this moment where the doctor seems to be kind of coming out of this dream or whatever. And he is complimenting kids, who he thinks at that point is his wife. Yes. And he's basically saying something along the lines of, can't believe I told you you were beautiful or something, words to that effect. Yeah, he does say I always wanted to tell you kids that you're beautiful or something. Yeah.
00:37:56
Speaker
And as he comes out, I think he's in the sick bay and Kim and two baka there and they're saying like, they're kind of reiterating which Kote said, and it's actually been a very slow day, apart from this confutable function. And everything seems to be back to normal. And the doctors sit down, carry on with his work and pretend he didn't say anything embarrassing to kiss. And then there's a very funny moment happens. I mean, not really funny, funny for the viewer, but probably a nightmare for the doctor.
00:38:27
Speaker
Anyone want to explain it? Go ahead. Oh, well, effectively from a moment where we think that we are safe and back in reality.
00:38:39
Speaker
Kez playfully questions the doctor on, oh, so you don't think I'm beautiful? And the doctor responds, well, I was under a great deal of stress and obviously we worked together, you're extremely attractive in a platonic way. And Kez goes back to him, I know we've been having problems in our marriage, but I still, and suddenly the dial is twisted from everything is normal back to, oh heavens, are we even further down the rabbit hole?
00:39:06
Speaker
Yes, exactly. She's like, so I guess our marriage really is over. And Barkley's back and then he has this weird like dream like sequence and kind of he's the doctor is treating himself on the table with a bunch of. But this all wraps up with Janeway kind of like calling him out of this dream or whatever, and they're standing
00:39:29
Speaker
on the holodeck, but it's with no holoprogram running. So it's like just the grid pattern. It always reminds me, this is so random, but you know that kind of, it's lattice that kind of surrounds the holodeck. We used to have this big sign that we had to put up at recruitment fairs that was like way big, like three times bigger than everyone else's signs and was like really heavy, whatever. But the back, the back all the sort of
00:39:53
Speaker
the structural support of that sign. It looks exactly like the Hollow Grid. I don't know. What you're saying is this entire episode has been a recruitment efficacy by your tech firm, because like, you know, Chappo, terrifying, but Chappo. Yeah, exactly. I always think it looks a bit like some kind of 80s computer game, 80s simulation, or what they thought a simulation computer game would look like in the 80s. Yeah.
00:40:20
Speaker
That is probably exactly what it is. I do, I do find it hysterically funny. Um, the, it's then a case of exactly what you said to the journey of, and it was all a dream and that's how we explain it. Yeah. I feel like that happens a few times as well. So like, you go back, you're like, Oh, and it's a dream and now we're out of it. And then there's a bit more, um, screen time. And then that happens again. And then like, I just.
00:40:50
Speaker
Yeah, I really struggled to engage with this one. You know, I love the doctor. Yeah. I mean, I, I don't think I had the same struggle, but like when I watched it, I was always like, I felt like it was going to be quite long because I knew like all the twists and turns. So I was like, how are we going to get to that? How are we going to get to that? So, um, uh, yeah, I think there's, I can relate a bit to that. Uh, but he's on the holodeck now with, um, and Jamie's like, do you know who you are? And he's like, uh, I'm not,
00:41:19
Speaker
emergency medical program, right? He's lost a bit of confidence there. And he has this, my assistant or whatever, not my wife, people are like, your wife. But he kind of returns to duty. And then we just have this little button. I don't know if it's a button, but
00:41:40
Speaker
Uh, it's Kess and the doctor in the sick bay and, uh, she's kind of like, Oh, we were married. She's like, please don't ever tell me. But then, then she's a little bit miserable. It'll be our little secret as though Neelix is ever not there. Yeah, exactly. Um, and he, he has also, she, he has that question about like, I was well-functioning. Why did my brain, for lack of a better word,
00:42:06
Speaker
This whole crazy delusion. And she's like, well, you know, I'm always asking myself, why am I here? What am I here for? But then she says something like, I can't remember, but he says, well, I'm the doctor and I'm here to do this. And she's like, are you sure? Which again, kind of hints to being married or something. Maybe I'm reading too much of that. But he does do a final test at the end to just sound like you check.
00:42:33
Speaker
when he sticks his arm out the door and his arm dematerialises. I kind of thought her question about, are you sure, was more about him saying, I know what my function is in the world, I like human beings, human beings always searching for what's the meaning, why am I here? What's the purpose? Whereas he, as a hologram, he knows why he's here, because he was built with a function in mind. But I guess I see that as her questioning, just because someone
00:43:03
Speaker
created you with a function in mind. Does that mean that that is your function and that is why you're here?
Philosophical Themes and Episode Reflection
00:43:08
Speaker
Exactly. Can you change what your function is? Very good point. Yeah. I think the whole, the doctor's whole point of existence is that he does. Well certainly in this moment he does. Who can end a question? Okay. I do not know. So I will not say. Well, maybe that will tie us into themes, Jamie. So
00:43:33
Speaker
Any major themes that stood out? Or... Uh... Still struggling to get past my... Oh god. I feel like I'd actually get on really well with Neelix in person as he's a bit of a victim of me, but I just can't stand him as a character on screen. That's so funny. So your theme is... I have some sympathy with that in this episode, I must say. I see where you're coming from.
00:44:02
Speaker
No, I mean, it's a marvellous sort of exploration of the same sort of what is the nature of reality ground that films like The Matrix and Inception all sort of use taking advantage of the Cartesian dilemma. But yeah, it
00:44:23
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, because of the fact that it's effectively in terms of the Star Trek universe, a bit of a storm in a teacup, a lot of stuff seems to be happening. But as T-Vox says, you're out for a couple of hours. It has otherwise been an uneventful day.
00:44:40
Speaker
And may you explain, sorry, I should have asked this at the very beginning, the Cartesian dilemma. For me, how are there listeners? Sorry. Need a refresher. Cartesian dilemma is named after a French philosopher called Descartes. I'm a very pretentious human being, so I like to mention stuff like this. That's why people listen. Sorry? That's why people listen. Throwing stuff at the wall as they do listen. But basically, the Cartesian dilemma was
00:45:10
Speaker
posed by Descartes, who tried to reason his way out of the question, how do I know that what I am experiencing is real, as opposed to a hallucination conjured up by a malevolent demon?
00:45:29
Speaker
And he thought around this question, he thought around this question, he thought around this question for an inordinate amount of time. And the Cartesian dilemma is the challenge in proving reality to yourself. So yeah, a precise parallel, a good deal. Why does it, I have a question. It's a movie which sells Leonardo DiCaprio, just in case you're wondering. But Jay, why does it have to be
00:45:59
Speaker
A malevolent demon. This is the question I've always wondered. Viewed it through the prism of the religious mores of the times. Like now a Cartesian dilemma doesn't need to be a malevolent demon. Could just be a delusion, like... Yeah, yeah. How do I know I'm not dreaming? Or a computer simulation nowadays. I guess that's the matrix. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
00:46:25
Speaker
Yes. I remember learning about this at some point and being like, I can't spend much more thinking about this. Otherwise I'm going to try and find myself crazy. Which takes me to the theme, which is like how painful it is when you can't trust the evidence of your own eyes or your own experience. And you have multiple people, you know, trying to influence you. Gaslighting the doctor. It's pretty, it's pretty tough. It looks pretty tough. That's what I mean.
00:46:56
Speaker
Janie, anything to add? No, I just, yeah, to me it's just about dreams versus reality, isn't it? And then, then the sort of little bit about, you know, as Kez alluded to at the end, the purpose, the purpose in life. It's a very philosophical one. Speaking of dreams, do you have a fireplace on your list of must-haves for your house?
00:47:25
Speaker
It's not on a must have, it's on one of those, you know, nice to have. I've just asked you because a few days ago I saw, I was watching a YouTube video, this interior design influencer that I follow and she just casually was sitting in front of a lit fire and she lives in Washington and I was like, oh my God, she is living the dream. So if I may request that you could get a fireplace, I would be very pleased. Then at least when I visit, I can help that experience.
00:47:55
Speaker
Sorry, that was a huge tangent. Star player. I mean, top gas slicing from Reginald Barkley. I think it has to be the doctor for me. The obvious choice, I think. But it did do a great job, especially as you said, Red, that scene where you just can't take it anymore and you just want someone to tell him what to do.
00:48:28
Speaker
Yes, I think I'm gonna go with you and your, your criteria, which is kind of the acting. You know, as in like, because it's, I think you normally go by the character. Yes, I think he just, he really had a chance to begin to like show stuff beyond the doctor and just these little moments. You're running.
00:48:53
Speaker
And it conveyed it, I think, like, well, like not as a human experiencing, like as a hologram experiencing human like, sometimes quite mean about actors, but good ones are very good. I couldn't do what they do for sure.
00:49:11
Speaker
Yeah, so wow, it was so quick. I think I might have rushed through that because I was just like a bit confused. But we will be back in the new year, right guys? Yeah, very good. We need to go where, you know, 95% of podcasts continue not going, even when they're trying to catch up to us. Consistency is key, dear listener.
00:49:35
Speaker
I mean, this is a bad time to say that as we've sort of pushed this off three times using COVID and various other unrelated things, but yes, consistency is key and always use protection listeners. I forgot, I just saw the start of that, sorry Jamie, I just can't believe you crossed over that. Moving on, moving on. It's New Year's use protection, is that what you're saying?
00:50:00
Speaker
No, I didn't say anything of the sort. What are you talking about? Why would you sexualise this content? You're in a hologram, Red. None of it's real. I'm sorry, I did say that and I just gaslit you slightly. I do beg your pardon. Can I say in a hologram? That's not right at all, is it? In a hologram. I think it's the same thing. Who say in a hologram is that anyway? Go for it. A hologram is all hologram. So if you're in a hologram,
00:50:26
Speaker
I mean, I refer to stuff a hollow core, hollow matrix. I don't know what I was talking about, so I'm sure I got it wrong. Great. Well, we'll be back in the new year. Have a merry Christmas and a festive holiday season. And on that note, goodbye.