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We watch "Emanations" (S1 Ep.9)
36 Plays2 years ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching "Emanations" in which Voyager's away team discovers a burial ground where bodies are transported to the afterlife. Ensign Kim gets mistakenly transported to the Vhnori homeworld, while a Vhnori takes his place. They eventually find a way back to their own worlds, sparking speculation about an afterlife.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Updates
00:00:00
Speaker
No more gossip, Jamie. I am not going to behave just because you banned us from gossiping about the gossip you picked up at the party that shall remain nameless. Prata hitting record on this podcast, Rhett. That's not how it works. This is not a tyranny. This is not a dictatorship. This is a place where we can go on and top them if we want to. Have I ruined the opening or have you not pressed the board? No, well, you know the rules, no editing, so I'm going to continue. And yeah.
00:00:26
Speaker
No gossip because I don't remember anymore. But they were asking about the podcast, so that it was hilarious. A quick update from me, I guess, before we dive into the episode, which is Emanations. I did produce a bunch of episodes this week, so everything is up to date. And I didn't notice sometimes we didn't say which episode we were reviewing. So I said Emanations. Emanations, correct. Season one, episode eight.
00:00:55
Speaker
The second thing I've done is I've linked us to Apple podcasts. Um, and according to my little dashboard that I have here, things are published, but I can't see them yet on in the app online, but apparently it can take a few days, but shots of us being canceled. No, well, maybe that's why I've already pushed to one platform.
00:01:21
Speaker
But I have a drink here and I did say last time that we admit that we should have a little celebratory drink when I like published. Cause there's a little button called publish that I haven't actually posted. That will do something. So do you want to raise your drinks? Do you have a drink? Great. And I'm going to
Episode Theme Introduction: Harry Kim's Discovery
00:01:40
Speaker
hit publish and I have no idea that's going to make any, we found one or more issues. Was I premature drinking?
00:01:49
Speaker
Oh, no, I did this already. Update frequency. Oh, not weekly. Sorry. Bi-weekly. And save. Published. I don't know why it's published. So I don't know what that means. Apparently it can take a few days for things to work on Apple podcasts. So I will keep checking back. But I guess for people listening in the future, this happened a long time ago and I can't complain time travel. Nevermind just normal time. But yes. And then.
00:02:19
Speaker
because it's on Apple, so you'll be able to have a listen because you both are both on Apple phones, right? And then you can- Mostly for Ted Lassie, but yes. You can give me a go ahead to go to the other platforms. Anyway, very boring
Discovery of New Element and Ethical Dilemma
00:02:30
Speaker
update for everybody. Jamie, are you ready with your one minute intro? Yeah, I can give you the one-line summation. Another of Harry Kim's super discovery turns into a super bear trap.
00:02:48
Speaker
Good. I've forgotten already his last discovery. Wasn't his last discovery some sort of little peephole all the way back to the alpha quadrant that got everyone's hopes up and then they were like, ah, this is rubbish. This is literally about the size of a probe. Yes, I remember that. Now, do you want to give us your slightly longer than one half a minute? OK.
00:03:17
Speaker
Another of Harry Kim's super discoveries turns into a super bear trap in which an entire culture's ideas of what happens with the afterlife and the first contact situation are potentially destroyed by Harry Kim wanting to tricorder a corpse. Well done. That's okay.
00:03:37
Speaker
I have to say I didn't really enjoy taking notes for this one because it was really hard to know what people's names were and they were kept in locations that I didn't really know. But I did, I did take some notes. So I guess we begin and it's the captain's log, which is I guess pretty standard. And I did really like that opening scene. It found a new element. Yeah, but just it's more on the kind of animation or special effects.
00:04:05
Speaker
of Voyager flying past that planet with the big ring. That was really cool. I really like that too. I don't actually remember. Very spacey. I always feel there's not enough sort of space maneuvering in Voyager that, you know, it's very much about the human drama as opposed to the Star Wars intership dynamics. Well, I've never watched Star Wars. Anyway, here we go.
00:04:32
Speaker
But yes, Jamie, do you want to describe what's happening? Like they've discovered
Exploration of Venori Beliefs and Cultural Misunderstandings
00:04:35
Speaker
a new element. Well, yeah. So the captain's log begins saying that they've potentially, there are how many elements? 246. 246 elements. Until now. But they suspect they've discovered another element, which is going to come from something hilarious, which we'll talk about in a second. And she says, but we've potentially discovered number 247.
00:05:00
Speaker
can you turn into this incredibly enthusiastic discussion involving harry kim check out a lot of tourists and the skipper about the fact that she discovered this element in the rings of the nearby planet.
00:05:16
Speaker
That's a stable element, which seems to be a good thing. Exactly. As opposed to, you know, one of those unstable elements that, you know, you find down the club every Friday night at two o'clock in the morning, down in Tequila through its nose. Not one of those elements. But, yeah.
00:05:34
Speaker
they outline the fact that this is in the offing and then there's quite a funny moment in which Harry suggests beaming a sample of the element on board which as we know from what happens later might have been a bit hilarious but then Bolana Torres everyone for the in-person impact says actually why don't we beam down and look at it in its natural environment
00:05:59
Speaker
which Captain Janeway agrees to, and then says, Chakotay, why don't you organize an away mission? You're on point. Chakotay walks away, and Harry looks very, very upset for a second as though they're not going to involve him. And then Chakotay sort of reaches out and says, and would you like to come along? You know, just as the potential discoverer.
00:06:18
Speaker
He's very, he's very excited to get to go along. I think probably because one of his first away missions, I get confused so often. I don't know about you, Janie, so that when I'm watching, I forget I'm watching like early Voyager. Yeah, same. But one thing they also mentioned at that point is that this element is on all the asteroids in the ring around the planet, which is just setting that scene for later as more information comes out, I think.
00:06:48
Speaker
And yeah, so then I guess, I think we have, I don't know. So the next scene that we see there on the planet that are waiting, Harry, Jokote and Bolana.
00:06:57
Speaker
and they in a cave I think on an asteroid and there's like all these like creepy cobwebs. Well yeah and they're trying to read for the stable element and they can't find it and they as you said they're finding all these cobwebs and then they go around a corner and they find a mummified class 5 humanoid
00:07:22
Speaker
Well, remember, Jamie. Yeah. Sorry. I was just searching for the correct way of doing that as opposed to, I don't know, stepping back for a Star Trek podcast. Does it not feel a little bit on the nose to go, yeah, they went around the corner and they found a corpse. That sounds more like something out of The Walking Dead. I just found myself trying to avoid using the word alien.
00:07:43
Speaker
some reason. Well I mean in a dark and shadowy environment of that ilk, using the term alien sort of conjures visions of Sigourney Weaver hunting down these things that are like barely, well barely not demonic as opposed to the class five humanoid remains that look like a very peacefully sort of cocooned remain of a human.
00:08:08
Speaker
um at which an interesting discussion uh kicks off because having established through scanning oh sorry go for it yeah just to interrupt because we do have like the the
Voyager's Cultural Challenges and Ethical Dilemmas
00:08:20
Speaker
song break from the engine i don't know what to call it but um uh
00:08:26
Speaker
I did immediately. So they come across, they stumble across one body and then they kind of go around the corner and then we see like, you know, multiple of these cocooned or mummy fighters, you said, bodies. And I didn't mean to really think of cocooned. Did anyone see that when they were a child? I feel like I might have. It's not quite the right reference, but I did immediately think of it. So I just had to break it up. Yeah.
00:08:53
Speaker
Then after the theme team, we're back on the planet and we find out a bit more. So there's actually 18 bodies split between males and females in different stages of decomposition, like some as recently as a couple of hours or something. And is there, have we covered off the fact that on mentioning to Jane that these are here... Well, they haven't got to be yet. Oh, okay. No, sorry. Right. Go for it. Yep.
00:09:22
Speaker
Well, I mean, they're about to, but, um, I think to go taste is like, Oh, it looks like some kind of burial site. Um, there's a bit of a, um, but at that point they realized that this element that they're interested in is emanating from these bodies. Does that mean it's an element still though? Or is it not? Um, but we made up of elements, aren't we?
00:09:45
Speaker
Yes, yeah, no, I just wanted to check. I mean, the bodies are the elements, but it's emanating of the readings are coming from the bodies. Yeah. And there's immediately kind of like,
00:09:59
Speaker
A difference in
Harry's Escape Plan and Crew's Technical Challenges
00:10:00
Speaker
opinion, I guess, is what you're getting at, Jamie, between Jukoti and Harry, about how to handle this. Yeah. Well, it's not only Jukoti and Harry, but Balana Taurus as well, because, well, Balanas, I suppose, comes later, but
00:10:17
Speaker
How are you suggest scanning the bodies and check is a bass says it officially comes out with an opinion after harry has suggested this to the captain she says this might be desecration.
00:10:32
Speaker
I'd suggest we leave these bodies as alone as we possibly can, use our eyes and nothing else. At which stage the captain decides in in Chikote's favour, but Bologna Torres is then very snide about the ability to learn anything else.
00:10:50
Speaker
because she effectively then sort of says, well, I've looked around, it's a baron of sight, it's creepy, let's go. And she goes, she says, you've looked but you've not seen, or words to that effect, saying that you can tell a lot from just what you're seeing here, that these people, for instance, it's very likely they believe in an afterlife because of the ritual with which they start, they prepare the body is here, or so we think. And
00:11:17
Speaker
to which Belanatora's count as well. Cleon's believed in an afterlife, and we don't do much body preparation. We just get rid of them very efficiently, which begs a few questions. They're always ready to die. Today is a good day to die and run into battle and don't really think about it. Well, yes, yes. Janie, what do you think? Because this is more like a thematic, I guess. They're really having this kind of, how you think about death. Do you think
00:11:44
Speaker
Do you care what happens to you after you die or do you think it's like, you know, I think they're really starting to address. Wait, are you asking Jen? Does she care what happens to her? No, I'm just saying, because Jenny likes to think about themes, but they're really touching kind of on the theme. Well, I, I quite liked about this. Um, not that I don't, I love Harry Cameron, you know, I don't want him to be in any kind of distress, but I did like the way they made this episode where at the very start, he's all for, um,
00:12:12
Speaker
scanning and finding out as much as they possibly can. And then later on, he finds himself in the situation where someone is inflicting that on him. Yes, that's a really good point. I've never noticed that. I did love that. Because then, you know, he thinks about it on the other end of the spectrum, I guess, and maybe in future, he'll be a bit more careful about. Yeah, because I think I agree with Chakoti mostly. You know, you want to learn as much as you can, but without
00:12:41
Speaker
intruding or, you know, it's prime directive, isn't it? Like, affecting the civilization that you're investigating too much. Yeah, I mean, I think we probably all would lean to Cote's way.
00:12:59
Speaker
And maybe Harry was just excited on his first away mission. He was like, this is his first contact, like, trying to be more something than it actually was. But then he did get to have that. Yeah. Can I ask a question? At what stage in Star Trek, Starfleet rules, does a civilization have to be for you
Conclusion: Reflections on Life, Death, and Creativity
00:13:20
Speaker
to be allowed to initiate first contact and indeed engage politically, post-warp? Really?
00:13:28
Speaker
That's the rule. Why post-warp? Well, I've always thought it must be because at that point they'll be coming to get you anyway. They'll be able to leave the planet and they'll be able to explore and come and, you know, visit you. And so it's better to, they monitor. I don't know where I picked this up. It must've been some other episode or series, but they basically monitor civilizations that are close to warp.
00:13:58
Speaker
they keep an eye on them and they wait and then like on the day that they achieve warp you know they send a party down to say hello and welcome to the post warp i think this is on some film star trek yeah this is exactly what happened on star trek i've watched this recently was it a film
00:14:21
Speaker
civilization, you'd have found this deeply creepy and be asking very far reaching questions about all these folk living in far-flung places reporting probing and things like that. I think that's what happens in our first Star Trek film with a TNG cast. I think I watched it on the plane recently because it's all I had. Yeah, and isn't it like, Earth's history is something like they, when Earth achieved war, the Vulcans turned up.
00:14:47
Speaker
And then he'd stop them, didn't they? Yeah, the Vulcans, exactly. Oh, didn't he? Those two-faced bastards. Anyway, we digress, and before we get to telling that about Vulcans or something. I love Vulcans! Yeah, exactly! They held back human civilisation for hundreds of years without letting them have warp technology, I gather. You're meeting that off the internet, have I not? I mean, you know, does my lack of passion for what I'm saying ring through?
00:15:14
Speaker
But anyway, we're still in the cave and also I thought it was interesting when Chakotay shared that, like his experience of being at a burial site, you know, back in his youth. And then he took a walk as a memento, not realizing it was actually a key part of the, it had been a gift. Chakotay desecrated a grave. So he didn't want Harry to make the same mistake, I guess.
00:15:38
Speaker
The discussion is interrupted by a dimensional distortion or something. And so they have to do an emergency beam out. And Seska is back at the transporter controls. We'll see her again. Oh my goodness. Can I just go back to the first contact thing? Just because I've been doing some research. I found out that Star Trek, the Star Trek universe even has an explanation for Roswell.
00:16:07
Speaker
That's hilarious. It's effectively because a Ferengi shuttle called Quark's Treasure crash landed near the town of Roswell, New Mexico. Oh, yes, I've seen that episode. Amazing. Also, I was watching, sorry, this is a huge digression, but I was finally, finally watching the final episode of Deep Space Nine because I was waiting to watch it with my sister. And so now I've watched Deep Space Nine twice because I didn't watch that last episode. Anyway, long story.
00:16:37
Speaker
Um, I was watching it because it kind of relates to the new Picard. And, um, I was thinking they did a really good job to make, I would say some of the most attractive characters on that show for Rengi. Quark is like the bad boy and his brother Rom is like the sweet good boy. Or am I crazy, Teddy?
00:17:02
Speaker
I think you're a bit crazy. No, I can't say I ever had the hotspot. No, no, what I meant by that is they both line up in relationships, like with like attractive woman. It's not like, it's not unbelievable. Like it is with no offense. You know, like, I like relationships.
00:17:24
Speaker
I'm starting to remember who they end up with, to be honest, that's the difficulty. I remember the two characters. Who do they? Well, Kwak has like relationships. He's more like a short term relationship guy, not that you see a lot of them, but he has like, you know, an ex girlfriend that turns up and I think she's, what is the, and Ron marries the dobbo girl.
00:17:52
Speaker
Oh, can I come to get back on track? There was one thing I was gonna say about that scene we just covered. Just say how I love Harry's response to
00:18:02
Speaker
It's such the PC thing to do. It's proper. When his suggestion is turned down in favor of Chikote, and he thanks Chikote for listening to his proposition, even though it was rejected. Chikote explains why he rejected him, his proposition.
00:18:24
Speaker
Isn't it? Why doesn't the office look like that? Why? Because we haven't encountered the Vulcans yet. Orange warp technology stage. I'm not sure which it is. They're holding us back. Yes, yes they are. They don't want us there.
00:18:46
Speaker
So there's this emergency beam art, um, and we, in transporter room three, I think, no, just transporter room, and something's gone wrong with the transport because there are three people on the transporter platform, but one of them is a class five humanoid mummy cocoon. And, um, Harry's missing, I guess. So not, not good, but, um,
00:19:15
Speaker
Tuvark is scanning for Harry and there's like no sign of him. But Balana is also busy scanning this, I keep referring to it as a cocoon. I don't know if that's the right word. And she realizes that this humanoid might still be alive. And so they beam her to the sickbay to see if they can revive her because there's still electrical activity. And the next scene is like, now we jumped to the planet.
00:19:42
Speaker
I feel, Jamie, you're going to have a lot to say about this burial ceremony that we're seeing. I mean, I call it burial ceremony. Just to quickly say, on Wikipedia, they call this place the mortuary, or the mall or something. So I don't know how you want to refer to. So remind me the name of the species of alien who's encountered. I know. But they refer to cenotaphs. The nori?
00:20:12
Speaker
Yeah, but they effectively refer to these enormous sarcophagus-like structures as cenotaphs and it transpires that what happens is members of that species who wish to end their life or end the life of pain or because they feel they're a burden on the families
00:20:34
Speaker
go into these and their lives are ended and then this sort of weird, worm-holy dimensional gateway that just appears on a sequential basis there just zaps them away to a place that these aliens, the Nori, have no idea where it is that they go. And they have made up this explanation around which they're inspired.
00:21:00
Speaker
No, no, I mean that is exactly what's happening but so we like we're on the planet and we see these uh humanoids around the cenotaph that you're describing undergoing one of these ceremonies but in this case there's banging coming from the inside yes and they're like she's alive she's alive and they open it and it's harry yeah she's harry
00:21:21
Speaker
a clue that, I mean, it's starting to give us a clue at least what's going on. Do you know what would have been an amazing Easter egg if the nori who met him was named some derivation of Sally? Well, yes, I mean, I really can't even begin to like, like
00:21:40
Speaker
organize the names of my mind, so I'm not going to be in that one. And Harry Met Sally, Star Trek, Voyager Star Trek. There must be a movie called like Body Swap or something, because that actually happens a few times in this. But yeah, I think we get the feeling that the woman that's now on Voyager and Harry have accidentally swapped places. Well, yeah, because the body appears on Voyager as the beam back from, I mean, have we articulated exactly how it sort of happens that there's this
00:22:10
Speaker
No, not yet. So Harry's like dying. They open it up. Everyone is kind of shocked. And then I think the next scene is we see two of these Venori and I think they're a man and a wife and they're having this like really interesting conversation. And she's like, he's like saying sacrifice and he sounds like he's getting ready to say goodbye. And she's like, but we'll see you soon. So give me the light clues about
00:22:35
Speaker
you know, what's what's happening in the nature of what goes on with those sarcophagi and it's
00:22:41
Speaker
It's a really moving scene because she's thanking him for his sacrifice and he's obviously sad to be leaving but there's an absolute certainty in her voice as she talks about what he's going to experience that she sounds absolutely certain that he's going to see her departed father and she eventually talks of telling him mundane things on a level with tell him that his plants are doing well, the trees I planted for him have been in flower for three years in a row
00:23:10
Speaker
going to see him. And so there's a certainty in how she talks about it. She is very certain. And indeed that he talks about that, that make it seem very clear that he's about to pass away from this mortal coil. But they're very certain and assured and unworried about what happens next. This is one of those episodes that is tricky.
00:23:33
Speaker
to watch when you've seen it so many times, because I can't remember now even how I first thought about this when I have, for example, like I remember all these bits about this episode. So I imagine when you first watch that scene for the first time, you're thinking, what is going on? It sounds like he's going to die, but no, it can't be that because of the way she's speaking. And the sort of confusion and WTF
00:24:02
Speaker
What the hell is going on kind of is just, it's difficult to remember. I assume that's how I respond, but because I know so well what happens now, you're like already thinking about it, thinking ahead. You raise a point that just reminds me, when I was sent back to the Delta Flies, the one guy, you know, with Harry and Tom, the actors, not the characters,
00:24:30
Speaker
And hoping the one guy will comment, he'll be like, oh, I was really confused in the scene. I didn't know what was going on. And I'm like, sometimes I'm like, you're not supposed to know what's going on at that point. It's supposed to be a bit unsettled or trying to, you know, they're giving you clues, not like laying out the story. So I'm not sure why he makes a comment. Or maybe he's meaning it the same way. I mean, it's not just misinterpreted. But
00:24:53
Speaker
Yeah, you're watching that the first time, you're like, wait, what is happening exactly? And I think that's how you're supposed to feel. But then I think in the same room, Harry enters with like a doctor or something, or the leader of the ceremony. I think it's Dr. Renora, but I might have got- A fanaticist or something. Oh, no, he comes a little bit later. But
00:25:20
Speaker
But we're kind of starting to find out that they believe he's come from the next emanation. Wow. Emanation is. Yeah. So, um, well, my notes are very bad. So Jamie saved me, but, um, they asked him like, how did you get here? Yeah. And he kind of describes a bit about what happens and then like, what do you mean you saw dead people? So watching on stream, you think that he's from the afterlife and there's, it's full of dead people.
00:25:48
Speaker
Um, but then they are interrupted by the Fanna. Do you want to say it again, Jenny? I'm just trying to remember. I thought it was something like Fanna-tist, but. Fanna-logist, Fanna-logist. Fanna-logist? Fanna-logist, yes. Neria, I think is what the web said. And Harry again introduces himself and explains a little bit of his like background. He's a human from Earth and all this stuff. And Harry finds out they are the Venori. Um, and then he says something like,
00:26:17
Speaker
He mentions the rings around their planet, and they're like, we don't have a ring around our planet. He's like, oh, great. This is very confusing. What's going on? Yeah. And this is the scene, isn't it, where they explain something of the function of the Senate office, isn't it? I think so, because my notes are really bad. So at this stage, it's sort of a little bit of a key blank is filled in as to why
00:26:44
Speaker
when the sort of mini wormhole, so they're called vagaries or? The subspace vacuole, I think we've heard a lot about that. Vacuoles, yeah. Why they're depositing bodies into, unbeknownst to the venori, into this asteroid belt. So effectively, they explained that the vacuoles arrive on a cyclical basis in the scene.
00:27:05
Speaker
And that is why that they have these synatops here, because they believe that the vacuoles take folk to the next emanation, their afterlife. And so people effectively come here to end their lives when, you know, they're suffering or they feel they're a burden or whatever other reason. In these, you think that only people who are near death, yes, yes, would undergo this
00:27:35
Speaker
Yes, but it's effectively a ritualized religious euthanasia. Yeah, which makes it seem a little bit darker than I would normally have anticipated from a Star Trek. Now, do you think that what about people who just suddenly die? Do they then go into the boxes? That's what I would assume. But they don't really cover that. But then they talk about that's the way you get to the next emanation. So
00:28:05
Speaker
That is an interesting question because they believe that you're literally your physical body just being sent somewhere else. If you're dead in that world, what would be the point of sending that person to the next one? But you're not going there because you're dead. You're going there because it's just the next part of your journey. Interesting. That is interesting.
00:28:32
Speaker
This is a hard one to explain. I think you're doing a great job Jamie. I just realised like watching it, it's not that complicated, but sort of trying to explain the intricacies of this aliens belief system and their processes and rituals and versus what's happening like in terms of carry being transported and switching places. It's all a bit complicated actually when you think about it.
00:28:55
Speaker
It's hard to take notes because they are revealing the story bit by bit. So you don't want to jump ahead and just the different settings. I don't know. But I think at this point, Harry's just desperate to know where he is, because the last time he was near a planet with a ring around it. Now he's told he's on a planet with no ring. And this technologist is like, I did it right down this one line. It's like, where you are now is the world of the living. Where you came from is another dimension.
00:29:24
Speaker
is the next emanation. A.K.A. the afterlife. So, David is from the afterlife and Harry's like, I just need to get back home. Yeah, I really love the where you are is the world of the living sort of reassure him line. Not dissimilar to the one that the Venori who is resuscitated sort of has to deal with. Well, yes, I guess the game is mirroring because the next scene we're in sickbay and the doctor is about to revive
00:29:59
Speaker
Yeah, patera. At this point, we discovered that biopolymer or those cobwebs is like a term. Yeah, the Dr. Rishas everyone and basically says, yeah, so you know, those cobwebs that you were basically walking through, you know, the mummification cocoon everyone had, that was basically that decomposition process. So you know, all of those cobwebs that you're wading through, you were literally wading through dead bodies with a very sensitive
00:30:18
Speaker
Paul Vinori who thinks they're dead.
00:30:27
Speaker
a doctor's bedside manner, which was almost identical to mine there, but with an American accent. Yeah, byproduct of decomposition. I did. Yeah, I mean, that was a good line, but it wasn't. Yeah, you were literally waiting through dead bodies. But yes, they wake up the terror. And the first thing she says is like, Where's my brother? And then she says something about dead sand chills down my spine.
00:30:50
Speaker
It was just like, but he's supposed to be here. They're all supposed to be here. And you're like, oh my gosh, that was... You ruined what I was going to say. Cause like, I was actually going to say like, you know, there's a lot of be sensitive for Beterra in this episode, but you know, if you're waking up from the dead, I think as landings go waking up to, okay, the doctor, but also Kes and captain Janeway is a pretty soft landing.
00:31:17
Speaker
I mean, I don't think it's a soft landing if you expect it to see your family and you're on a spaceship. Yeah, and you're surrounded by aliens. You sort of took the sting out of what I said by suggesting she expects to see her family there, yes, I agree. But under any other circumstances, it would have been a soft landing, we should have no sympathy for her. No, it wouldn't have been, because to her, there's these
00:31:41
Speaker
seen before like, can I can I just point out the whole we will allow no criticism of January's leadership style thing that we're violating here. I take this as criticism of her leadership style. If you're not criticism at all. No, I'm just describing the feelings of the I'm empathizing with the feelings of the alien how she might feel upon waking up and being surrounded by strange aliens. And
00:32:06
Speaker
But the alternative is surrounding her, I don't know, with no one. So I think probably sympathetic aliens is the way to go. Anyway, she panicked so much that I think they sedated her at that point. And so we're back on the planet with Harry and
00:32:24
Speaker
Neria. Oh, Neria's the Phonologist. The Phonologist, my God. Don't worry. It's so good. And Harry's trying to piece together this Venori culture and what happened to him. So he's like, I guess, trying to figure out, you know, how he landed up here. And then there's a line where he finds out that Patera, who was sent, wasn't actually dead yet. And then, you know, at that point, you don't actually die until the Cenotaph is activated.
00:32:53
Speaker
Um, but she was dying from a tumor. So she was ill. Um, and yes, I think we've covered this a bit, but yeah, the, the, the knowledge just explains that, uh, the senator euthanizes the occupants and transports them to the next emanation. Um, and then, yeah, we have a naturally occurring subspace vacuole. Um, which is a mini wormhole for those who don't know what a vacuole is. Cause I didn't.
00:33:17
Speaker
And, um, but then, so Harry's got all these questions for the thanologists, but actually at some point it switches and this Dr. Neri or whatever, he's got tons of questions for Harry because everyone wants to know what Harry said. You know, he saw dead bodies because there's supposed to be no dead bodies in the land of the dead, which is a bit ironic and up there with you can't fight in the war room from Dr. Strangelove, but you know, I can understand the logic.
00:33:42
Speaker
And there's a point at which I'm not sure if it's yet where Harry's sort of realising, you can sort of see him realising, he's like, Oh, God, I probably shouldn't have said that. And, you know, I really can't say anything else. This is like, going to cause your entire civilisation like major change and disruption and, you know, the sort of him trying to like, not lie, but also, you know, try and
00:34:10
Speaker
devastation to these people. I think he does quite a good job considering the circumstances. Again, yeah, considering it is his probably first solo, first contact situation. But yeah, this guy is very, I mean, he again has these lines, some of these lines are very like, I don't know, they make you feel quite bad for the Benori at this point. Because he's like, are you saying when, when we die, we go to some asteroid to decompose?
00:34:39
Speaker
cause Harry's like, I don't know what I'm saying, but I wasn't saying that. Not that brutally. But now there's a sad episode really, isn't it? Like, yeah, I do feel bad for them. Um, but obviously, so Neria has all these questions and now he also wants to be scanning Harry, like you said earlier, Jenny, because this is the first person ever to come back. So obviously Harry's also a huge, huge interest to them.
00:35:03
Speaker
something really intimidating. He says something like a full bio-spectral analysis or something is quite, quite frightening. I feel like you can just think how are you, see how you're thinking, Oh my God, am I ever going to get out of here? Yeah. And also like, why, why me? Like always, it's always Harry getting into these troubles.
00:35:24
Speaker
run-ins with aliens. It happened to Tom Paris. But isn't it at this stage that the Veneri chap who was about to sort of move on to the next emanation sort of overhears some of the conversation and is disturbed by it in its nature? Because we haven't, I think it's an important plot to go into. Yeah, that is, it's not on my notes yet.
00:35:50
Speaker
So he could have overheard but they haven't had like conversed about it yet. So we're back on Voyager and I think Shikote tells Janeway that they find 200,000 bodies on the asteroid or the 2,000? I thought it was 2,000 but I think it was 2,000 because I wrote down 2,000 then I like was reading an article online or and then I said 200,000 and then I was like oh I just corrected myself but I think it was 2,000. Yeah.
00:36:20
Speaker
Anyway, so now, I mean, again, that's just painting a picture. And then we in sick bay with Janeway and Patera. And Janeway, you can see she's starting to form an idea of what has happened to Harry based on what Patera's just told her. Is it Patera? Yes. But again, it's kind of funny. Both people always want questions. Like Harry has tons of questions, then
00:36:46
Speaker
The Venori has tons of questions. Janeway has tons of questions because she's trying to find Harry, but this person expects to be in the afterlife. So she also has a lot of questions for Janeway. So she keeps asking, you know, what happens to my people when we die? Like, that's something she already wants to find out. And Janeway, I mean, she just tries. She just says all we know is that these vacuoles deposit the bodies on this ring of, you know, this asteroid belt or this ring around a planet.
00:37:15
Speaker
And then we find out that Beterra is like, well, this is not what I was expecting at all, because they expect to go to the next emanation where they get all the answers and become all knowing.
00:37:28
Speaker
And what's your take on what Patera at that stage believes? Do you believe she thinks she's dead? Or do you believe she thinks something weird has happened and these are aliens? Because there's perilous little comments on how different they look for, you know, people in the land of the dead. I believe that she... Oh yeah, I'm not sure. It's an interesting question, isn't it? You can't really tell.
00:37:58
Speaker
All I know is that she feels like she's not in the right place. And again, she wasn't really expecting to die. She just was expecting to go to another place. What I found really interesting is that, and the thing is though, I think this doesn't happen until another scene, but what she believed prior to this happening, she explains when she's talking later to Cass, a key element, I think, which is not the
00:38:28
Speaker
her soul is, you know, going off up to heaven or next destination, whatever it is, the afterlife, but they believe that their actual physical body will go through and they will be basically just like they are now just, you know, living and breathing and their body goes with them. And that I think was a really interesting sort of discovery when watching this episode. So then I realized, okay, so that is what's the really shocking thing to these four people is that
00:38:56
Speaker
Um, they were expecting just to be their full selves in the afterlife. Like, and just be reunited with the people that are. Yeah. And just be in heaven as themselves, you know, like what, what a shock that would be. Then they are starting to consider the possibility that in fact, they just die and decompose. And even if they're something else or whatever does go somewhere else, um,
00:39:22
Speaker
which could still be a possibility. The fact that their bodies don't is like a massive shock to them. Like that would be just, I mean, it's a bit like, I guess, when you grow up and when you're a kid, you have no real concept of death. And then gradually over time, you start to understand that everyone dies and that means you will die one day. And it's that sort of horrifying realization, I guess. But, you know, these are adult aliens having to go through it rather than the sort of slowly discovering it as you grow up.
00:39:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's much harder to detach from an idea as an adult. But yeah, exactly. I mean, when she was like, to kiss, she was like, you don't understand, we have no concept of spirit. Like, it's just, you know, everything is everything. And the only thing I just want to mention is like, obviously, in the scene before,
00:40:13
Speaker
with her that Jane, we are talking to Jamie is like promises to try to do anything to help her because obviously she's in distress. Okay, so then there's like this one thing happened. I wasn't quite sure why this happened, to be honest. I mean,
00:40:33
Speaker
kind of added to the story but it didn't so much. There's a ship-wide like disturbance or a knock whatever and they kind of quickly figure out that one of these mummies or cocoons has actually been deposited on the on Voyager in engineering near the warp core and I think this is going to kind of carry on and emerges at these
00:40:56
Speaker
bodies are attracted to the wall core, so a couple more. But before we get there, I guess we're back on the planet. And I guess, Jamie, this refers to what you were suggesting before, but it's a scene of Mateo, I think his name was, the guy getting ready for his transfer and ceremony, and his wife, and he's starting to have some doubts. Starting to wonder what really happens when they die, and his wife,
00:41:25
Speaker
And that was prompted a little bit because he'd overheard some of the conversations with Harry. They were basically in the same room, actually, like Harry was being kept there, and he was there to prepare. And he was presumably asking himself,
00:41:41
Speaker
Why the hell is there someone who can only be an angel who doesn't look or think he's an angel in this room who's come back from the emanation? Or what's that effect of Inori speak? I appreciate that I'm brutalizing the possible integration of effectively a first contact situation.
00:42:00
Speaker
for the verbs of humour, but yes, he does sort of start to question that. And it's from there, later on, that the genesis of Harry's, I'm not going to say Exodus, because we're all getting a little bit too pseudo-religious on this one, but at least escape is based. Yeah, we're going to get there. But again, this kind of reminds me of what you said earlier, it's like he is starting to have doubts, but she is so certain.
00:42:29
Speaker
suspiciously so and yeah exactly you starting to have a few suspicions which builds into what comes up a little bit um later but um is it too soon a little bit too soon um but she threatens harry when she leaves like stay away from my husband because you know she just wants this transfer ceremony to go ahead and her husband to die i'll move on whatever i guess not die because that's not what they believe but
00:42:55
Speaker
He's again, has so many questions for Harry and Harry doesn't really know how to answer and eventually he says something like, I don't know what happens to your people when they die. I don't even know what happens to my people, which I thought was a good perfection. And then, yeah, then we find out that, but like, as we kind of said already, but Mateo is sharing with Harry that death is, they believe death is just another part of existence.
00:43:23
Speaker
And you can actually move, just choose to move on. You know, you don't have to be on the verge of death. You can just be unhappy or lonely and choose to go through the transference ceremony. And we kind of, well, I would say we find out that Mateo has been pressurized, pressured by his family because he had an accident. So he's like a burden on his family. And Harry is obviously appalled. And Mateo actually, yeah, I don't know if that's his name, but I'm calling him that.
00:43:54
Speaker
So I don't know why it's not right. Anyway, this guy admits he's actually terrified of dying. And since talking to Harry, he's more terrified than ever. So we started to have some sympathy for his, well, you know, more sympathy, I guess, for his situation. Yeah. It starts to become more, one of the key themes red starts to emerge of the soul.
00:44:17
Speaker
when this episode came out, this was like a huge, I mean, lots of countries now have assisted dying a lot. Yeah. This is a hugely controversial topic. And they are. And still is really because you know, even now we've got people who in our country are flying over to Switzerland or wherever it is, so they can legally die and there's
00:44:37
Speaker
all kinds of problems. Yeah. And then there's, you know, obviously relatives of those involved who want to be there to help their loved one. Can't because they might get sent to prison afterwards. And yeah, it's a really, even now just quite a heated, topical kind of theme, isn't it? How sympathetically do we feel Star Trek or Voyager positions this practice?
00:45:07
Speaker
in this episode. I think they position it quite neutrally actually. Yes, I do think they like lay out some of the risks that people have laid out. For example, feeling pressured by your family or being taken advantage of by other people to go through this. Or maybe choosing to do it for a reason that
00:45:29
Speaker
doesn't really reduce the quality of your life or you could still have a good life with that. Like that guy just has like a lump. Yeah. And they do also to talk about people doing it because they're not happy with their life, i.e. lonely or depressed. So, you know, they're bringing into this, the idea of people with, you know, just mood disorders or mental health problems and, you know, being then feeling pressured into. Which I would argue are treatable,
00:45:56
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So yeah, if you're interested more on the topic, you can always Google Canada. Well, I think they just made it, well, all the legislating to make a mental, being, you know, having a mental health issue a reason to have a system die. Are they really? Wow. Yes. There's a huge, I'm not, I'm not an expert. I just, if you're interested to Google the topic. Yeah. But yeah, I think this,
00:46:26
Speaker
The world is like kind of not moved on really a lot since this episode. But at this time, it was very certainly things people talk about a lot. I'm not sure it was legal in any countries at that point. Now it's legal in some and certainly more than at that time, I think. But yes, as I was watching this, I did immediately think Canada. I wonder if Star Trek, I mean, they do, I think you're actually like they do put forth the
00:46:54
Speaker
potential problems with it, but in general, it comes across quite neutral. Yes, I agree. I agree. Yeah, it's sympathetically positioned at least. I do think now rethinking about it, they focus perhaps a little bit more on the potential problems and less so on, you know, like, for example, you read stories, papers about people who are
00:47:17
Speaker
fighting for the legal right to end their life because they're in massive amounts of pain and they believe that they should be allowed to make that decision themselves and not have the government tell them. Which, you know, when you hear that kind of thing, it does make you sort of consider both sides. And I guess that element isn't really sort of, you know, explored in this episode. I think they explore more the side of what could go wrong with it, you know, like being pressured by your family.
00:47:47
Speaker
Yeah, and I sort of like that because it's, again, I don't feel like too much judgment.
00:47:55
Speaker
I feel it's an interesting and useful plot device for them to position of a nori as there's just absolutely no downside to moving to the next emanation. We know what happens. It's an uncertainty because that removes an awful lot of the seriousness and gravity of where situations exist, where individuals are effectively being pressured into this ritual.
00:48:21
Speaker
It effectively removes the drama of what would be perceived emotionally by them as someone pushing someone else into killing themselves in a murderous fashion. And that's quite a sophisticated and useful technique to consider the concept on its own that Star Trek has employed, whether deliberately or undeliberately there. Yeah, that is a good point. I'm very clever of the writers that they did that intentionally because it removes that controversy in a sense. Yeah, it sort of makes-
00:48:50
Speaker
Yeah, this feels... While it is a serious episode, it doesn't feel grimdark, which it could easily have been made to feel. Yeah, if grimdark isn't a concept that is alien by its very nature to Star Trek.
00:49:09
Speaker
Um, yeah, so that was, yeah, we, anyway, I think it is an interesting scene because there's also caching points of view. Obviously, Harry's like, as I say, the fall, but this guy's just having doubts. He's not like, turn, you know, anyway. He's not turned against the concept. No, he's just, he's not quite ready for it, I think. And Harry's doing his best to sort of not interfere and push one with the other, but of course,
00:49:36
Speaker
our party is in his expression and is then influenced by it. I think that Harry does a good job in this episode. He's putting a good foot forward for Starfleet officer of the episode. Oh yes, Starfleet. Moving towards the Starfleet for like eight episodes.
00:50:04
Speaker
Okay, so we're back on a Voyager in engineering with Balana, Jamie, and Tuvok, and they're being, well, I wrote being inundated with cocoons. Actually, they were just three, but I got the impression that they had, these vacuoles are forming around the warp core, which could be, well, what's that right down here? Oh, could be dangerous, but also it was attracting them to the thing. Could I just point out something that has just occurred to me?
00:50:33
Speaker
There is a level on which, you know, if you didn't know what was going on, you were sat in the Starfleet captain's officer seat that you might sort of consider the situation as. These aliens think that three corpses are a good exchange for Harry Kim, which is an interesting exchange rate to consider this with. Yes, I didn't think of that.
00:50:58
Speaker
Uh, that's funny. Um, but anyway, they have to kind of get out of there to stop these, um, and so they can figure out how to protect the war court and return and continue their search for Harry. Um, Oh yes. Then we have the scene in the metal with, uh, Kaz and Patera, but we've covered that. But again, she's like, we don't believe in spirits. We, um.
00:51:24
Speaker
really believe we maintain our form. Which is in response to obviously Kes trying to comfort her saying well maybe just because there are bodies here doesn't mean that you don't have an afterlife. We have a belief in an afterlife that theologically evades this problem. Maybe the same thing happens for you guys and you know it's just a physical remains deposit
00:51:52
Speaker
Yes, maybe. Did she use a corporeal or something? But shame, Patera's just like, she just wants to get sent home. Like, that's kind of, and so the next thing we're in the briefing room, and Patera's actually there with the crew. And Balana has a brainwave. I mean, I vaguely understand what a brainwave was. Anyone understands a better one, Exclave?
00:52:18
Speaker
The thing was down to a transporter accident at the beginning. I had no idea. I mean, I could tell, but I don't think anyone said the words transporter accident when it happened. I think someone's putting a face in. You're shaking your head, so that makes me feel better. There's a lot of things being put in. I didn't really pay much attention this episode at all to the actual technical stuff going on with blood flow. It's heavily implied that...
00:52:40
Speaker
You know, they try and beam Belan and Chakotay and Paris, not Paris, my guess. Harry, I just think of them as the same person now, which is a win for Harry.
00:52:53
Speaker
Um, or is it for Paris? Who knows? Where is Paris in this episode? He's just kind of disappeared. Slanking off his best mate literally dies and he's nowhere for him. I think that tells us all we need to know about Ensign Paris. After Harry last week was like, they made me leave. They made me leave. Cause he didn't want to leave his friend on that, uh, race planet. Sorry. Oh yeah, that whole, you've got to relive murdering this guy planet for a while.
00:53:19
Speaker
But anyway, to go back to the point being made to explain what my understanding happened, the reason they were beaming out of the two masteroid as it will be forever now known was because the vacuoles appeared and they were like, what are these mini wormholes doing? Get us out of here. The place might explode. And the transporter beam and the vacuole interacted, depositing Harry where the vacuole originated from.
00:53:47
Speaker
on the other end of the mini wormhole. And thus that was what it was a logical link suggesting that it could have been a transporter be maxed again. Yeah. So what are they going to do now? I have no idea. I leave a little detail to you folks.
00:54:09
Speaker
Well they're gonna try recreate that accident by sending Patera with the transponder to beam Harry once she's in the backyard. Basically they're gonna try and beam her back somehow and it's risky but she's willing to take the risk because as she says she's already accepted to death once. Was she right to take the risk? Well it doesn't.
00:54:38
Speaker
It doesn't work out for her in one sense, I guess, but actually what is the best outcome of that transport for her? She goes back alive or she goes back dead? Or she never makes it back? Or she never regains consciousness? Well, she was going to get sent to an asteroid as a mummy and that is what lands up happening. That's what she always wanted. But I mean, it's a bit more grim than that because she sort of, they beam, it doesn't quite work.
00:55:07
Speaker
And the beam comes back and she's dead and has started mummifying herself. Yeah. And then they, um, Janeway, I don't want to use the word orders, but Janeway requests that she's beam to, um, the asteroid vault because that's what she would have wanted. Um, and Kiz has that little moment with her. I mean, to say, I hope you find what you're looking for in a post-artic self words.
00:55:35
Speaker
And I guess also because that didn't work, they didn't get Harry. But it turns out they've only got two more hours in the area before they need to leave again. So they've got two hours to find him. Yeah. Pressure's on. There's narration tension. Take us to the next stage. It's a ticking clock, as they say. I was wondering if people would hear me.
00:56:04
Speaker
We're back on the planet, and the technologist is still analyzing Harry, and obviously Harry's still gonna skip back. But I know it turns out that the presence of Harry is obviously causing some ripple effects in society.
00:56:15
Speaker
I thought you were going to say in the many wormholes, and I was like, Harry's potentially a divine creature that should obviously have helped his cover story if he'd been having ripple effects and vacuoles. But if it's in society, yes, I get what you're saying. Words are specified. Word has spread fast. Yes. They want to move them to a secure location, a safe house, or a witness protection program. It's in danger. Some people don't like it. It's the afterlife. We're keeping you here for your own safety. You might get killed if they find out what you know.
00:56:44
Speaker
But yeah, obviously you can imagine this could be having, you know, had some echoes of things that have happened in real life, I guess. So he, he like, the thumbnail just walks out and Harry's left in this morgue slash mortuary slash room with the guy I was calling Mateo, but I think his name is Hatil. So anyway, excuse me. And he's busy wrapping himself in that shroud.
00:57:12
Speaker
The death shroud. The traditional death shroud. Yeah. And Harry's like, can't you just back out? Is this when he will, yeah, I think this is when he's rapping. Yeah. Um, uh, but he's, and he admits that he's thought about backing up, but he just wants to be loyal to his family. But then obviously Harry has this brainwave and he's like,
00:57:38
Speaker
We can do something where your family will think that you're dead, but you've actually gone to the mountains with your friends who will survive. And I'll be able to get back. Well, no, and it's sort of, we depict it as quite an easy switch, but there's a lot to do this for both parties because Harry is effectively adopting an escape route, which
00:58:05
Speaker
he will have a briefly shuffle off this mortal coil because the senate offs kill the people they put into the vacuole and the the vinari is very scared about doing this and also he would be vanishing and leaving his life and his wife with whom
00:58:29
Speaker
while she thought that he was going to do what she said he should do, he was very close to her. This might be different, were she to find out that he wasn't going or had decided to change his mind.
00:58:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's not risk-free, that's for sure. And I mean, he does point out to Harry, like, or you find out that, you know, the soundtrack will kill Harry. True. Harry just wants to get back to Voyager, I guess the same way, but Terry just wanted to get home. And I like the way that Actel signals his, like, agreement to this plan by beginning to unwrap his shroud, because he's been wrapped against, and then he's like, you know, that reversal.
00:59:08
Speaker
I kind of like that. It's very fortunate that he has a traditional shroud stick and that it's for the whole body. What are you saying about a human and Venari physiology comparisons? I just think that that shroud was a very useful prop device. It's a multitude of sins.
00:59:33
Speaker
Although I guess maybe Harry only gets the idea once he sees the shroud. Like if we're going to be very forgiving. The next scene we do see, obviously Harry wrapped in the shrouds and singing in the sand. And his wife is saying goodbye and then he leans back.
00:59:54
Speaker
And then the thing closes and, oh, the next person liked that scene. Yeah. I just think he did a really good, quite a good job of acting this whole thing. Like the, you know, it's, it's, it's very, um, you feel very immersed in his experience. You know, like he's like basically getting into a coffin to be, um, with crossing his fingers, the hope and trust that
01:00:21
Speaker
his medical team will be able to revive him. I think they do it really well because I just get engrossed in this. Exactly. I know this sounds dreadful, but I think actually it's for once not necessarily particularly well done because
01:00:43
Speaker
he isn't depicted showing a loss of fear until the very last sort of moment that, you know, and I think he does a good job of because it was always like you can see him, his training coming in, right? And he's starting to take deep breaths. But
01:01:04
Speaker
he's, it's like he's battling the training of, you know, he's got a, I think in the Star Trek film, actually, they say it really well, you know, when Kirk is in court for, you know, cheating on the cobu rush, how do you say it, cobu rashimayu or something. And it's, Spock says, well, you failed to determine the point of the test was just to...
01:01:31
Speaker
That's the one is the point of the test is as a Starfleet officer, you're expected to be able to maintain control of one's emotions and oneself in the face of certain death. Right. So this is Harry trying to remember that training, but also, you know, it must be frightening. So some of some of it is coming through the training with deep breathing, slight panic. And I just think he does a good job of like that, showing that internal struggle. Yeah.
01:02:02
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I mean, and when that thing came on his neck and I was like, I mean, I felt like... I was very happy. I was like... Oh yeah, it's really on the strokes. He's enclosed in the sarcophagus and two red beams sort of slowly extending to his neck.
01:02:19
Speaker
Are these lasers? Are they cutting off his spinal cord? I think it's some sort of injection thing, but I don't like to specify, because I don't like to specify on the lethal injection methodologies, but he dies and he's vacuoled.
01:02:35
Speaker
Yes, but I do want to say just what you say. Well, this just reminds me of something that I did learn from, not that I'll ever have any effect in real life, but from Voyager. It's like, if you get, you know, separated from Voyager or you get stuck on a plan order, like, just do whatever you can to get back because Voyager will be doing whatever they can to rescue you and then you'll be in the middle, you know? If you just sit feeling sorry for yourself, it won't work out. Like, Harry was really very active in his rescue, I guess. Yeah. Yes.
01:03:04
Speaker
Yeah, that's a definite repeated theme, isn't it? Yeah, I like that. And they all this, everyone always trusts that whether they're kidnapped or lost or anything's happened to them, that they just work on, as you say, as much as they can to get out because they know, they know that. Exactly.
01:03:26
Speaker
So as this is happening, we go back, we see on Voyager that they're still having to beam all these bodies from the ship back onto the asteroids. And finally it comes to the point where Volana has to recommend that they leave, even though they haven't actually found Harry yet. And Janeway, you can see that moment on her face, where she's like,
01:03:45
Speaker
Oh my gosh, I'm not actually going to save the one after risking them any. She obviously knows that, you know, Blahn is probably right and has to agree so they begin to turn around. But then there's another vacuole and a bump or whatever. It's a bit like a crash of lightning, except in space on a spaceship when they happen.
01:04:09
Speaker
And another vacuole-deposited body this time, human, but dead. Not quite out the woods yet. Seemed directly to sickbay. By someone called Cesca, whose name gets mentioned a lot this episode for, you know, a nameless person on a transporter beam operation, Gigi. They're laying the groundwork. Ooh.
01:04:36
Speaker
Interesting. But anyway, Harry gets teleported into sickbay where we wait with bated breath and then... That was my attempt at mimicking Harry coming back to life. Is Jamie looking for a sound effect? We're gonna read something off the internet.
01:04:59
Speaker
No, no, no. I'm going to read nothing about, um, revivification or anything like that. I thought you were going to sort of, um, describe that the doctor seemingly injects him with one thing and, uh, the captain and various others and cares. Actually there's a nice moment where sort of the doctor's like,
01:05:17
Speaker
lifts his hand says just one thing and Kez rushes off gets it and puts it in his hand and then he injects Harry and then there's a moment where you're like oh has it worked silent so it's not worked it's not worked and then Harry awakes like a man who's had an injector full of adrenaline plunged into his heart in a pulp fiction movie incident uh exactly um without you know the drama
01:05:45
Speaker
incidentally, on I don't know if anyone read the news today, but there's an article literally just come out today that they they've managed to place an animal into what is basically suspended animation, right? hibernation, and then bring it out again alive and okay. And
01:06:08
Speaker
they think the interesting thing is they did it through like, no, it wasn't the temperature or anything like that, all the environment, it was just they were, they did something to the brain, but they were able to bring it back out again. But the interesting thing is this animal is not one that usually hibernates, right? So they think that based on that, there's a high chance that they could do it to humans.
01:06:36
Speaker
So we can hibernate through winter? Well, no, but we'd be put. So this is like a Star Trek thing, right? Because on a lot of Star Trek movies, yeah, they put people into suspended animation so they can send them off to Mars or wherever. That's like hundreds, thousands of light years away. I have a use case right here on Earth. Help us hibernate through winter. The darkest three months of winter.
01:07:00
Speaker
But they think that they could more probably more likely they can use it in like medicine because people who've had like stroke or heart attack or something, they can put them into like a suspended animation for a little while, whilst they sort of recover and give them medicine and things. Sometimes they induce people into a coma or keep them in a coma. Yeah, because sometimes it's helpful. Obviously, you know, in only certain situations for short term. Wow. Yeah, it's fascinating.
01:07:31
Speaker
Yeah, super interesting. Who wants to describe the final scene? Because I thought it was quite nice. I remember this one. I'll do it because I normally don't remember any of them until you guys describe them. So this is one of the few I do remember. So you know, we have Harry and he's sitting pondering the meaning of life having his dinner. And then he pushes his tray away because he can't even eat. So
01:08:00
Speaker
Um, you know, just thinking, thinking hard about, I don't know what, and then January comes along and she's saying how, um, he, um, he said, you know, you should have some rest time. He wants to be back at work the next day. And she says, no, no, you're going to have a full two days off. And he says, I'm fine. And she wants him to have the full time off because she believes that he needs time to consider what's happened to him. This experience he's had is unique. And also that she had a lot of.
01:08:35
Speaker
interesting visits to other planets, presumably, and other experiences when she was younger, and that she didn't really get a chance to ponder them when they happened. So she wants him to have a chance to just think about his experience. Yeah, and Ray, you might consciously process it, I think. Because she even suggests, I don't know if she suggests journaling, but she definitely suggests
01:08:56
Speaker
art or like creative endeavors or something. Anything to express himself, yeah. Again, such great management. I mean, could we just take a moment here? He literally died and he's only getting two days off. Couldn't quite tell how much time had passed between him being in sickbay and him being
01:09:21
Speaker
you know, until that moment in the thing, because I thought maybe he had spent time in recovery, you know, so I wasn't sure. Good point. You might have spent two weeks in sick baby, monitored and you know, carefully looked after and things but before that point, that's, I like to think that. Yeah. Plus, also, I guess, now you say it, the sort of creative endeavour and journaling thing, I guess, I mean, in a way, he has had a traumatic experience, he's been dead. So I guess it's a kind of therapy.
01:09:50
Speaker
suggesting to avoid PTSD, presumably. Yeah. Well, at least make sure he doesn't just like, you know, try to move on too fast from this, because yeah, he was dead. And in a sense, he did experience not like an afterlife, but also this high, like, I mean, anyone who has any concerns about death watching this episode is going to have all those things resurrected. And like, so it's not almost just that he died, but it must also
01:10:20
Speaker
you know, like, and he learns about this whole other civilization and culture and how they view death. And also, oh, oh dear, I'm having this thing. We find out, oh dear, I'm gonna have to have some more time. That we find out a little bit more about the energy field, which indicates that maybe the Nori might have some kind of afterlife that's different from what they expected, but it is an afterlife.
01:10:49
Speaker
Yeah, I missed that bit. And I am. There's like a neural energy that's released into the asteroid belt. And January says it's extremely complex and dynamic and all these other things about it that are unusual. And that could suggest that there is some kind of soul. Yeah, so she sort of
01:11:18
Speaker
performs a neat theological trick by effectively saying, when Harry's like, oh, I clearly know that there's no such thing as an afterlife. And Jeremy says, are you so sure? Because even though the body's deposited here, there's loads of weird, unusual shit of weird emanations and frequencies and vibrations going on there in unusual sort of densities with complexities suggesting things interacting. Effectively saying,
01:11:46
Speaker
just because this does not therefore mean not to that as to the possibility of an actual afterlife for those folk. So it's interesting. She's in effect successfully performing the theological trick that Kes is trying to perform for Patera by saying, well, just because after life and life after death doesn't happen the way you think it does,
01:12:10
Speaker
it might still be possible to happen in another way. So, you know, don't give in to existential despair, which is a trick that, to be fair, theologians have been practicing and carrying out for religions, you know, I think. What I did think was interesting is that she kind of gives Harry hope in a sense, like, I mean, by giving him this information about this unusual activity, and then he's like, are you sure? And then she's like, well, we can't be certain.
01:12:39
Speaker
But, so she's not, she doesn't, she's not certain about it, right? But she says, I mean, she wraps up with her saying, we can't, one thing we do know is we know, we know much less about death. What does she say? We know, we know, we know, we know less than we know about death. What we know is less than what we don't know about death. Yeah. Kind of reassuring Harry. She's like, actually, I'm not sure, but actually we don't know anything.
01:13:10
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I someone said to me about it because they had having a discussion. And I think this is quite a religious person. But he was also like, very keen scientist. And we were talking about the sort of contradiction in that in some respects. And he was saying about the yes, he understood the current natural contradiction there. But he
01:13:37
Speaker
even in science, there's still always so much we don't know. And that he just thought it would, it was super arrogant to assume that we do know what happens when people die. Yeah. That we know absolutely everything about it. You know what, we know nothing. Yeah. So when I say, well, yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah. I mean,
01:14:01
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah. I thought that was a very interesting episode. It reminded me of when I, I definitely went through a phase. I don't know if all people go through this when they're growing up where you're like, wait, I'm going to die. Everyone's going to die. Why is no one, why aren't all people running around the book going, ah, we're going to die. Yeah. Or at least talking about it more. And then I learned to become a person that just never thinks about it. Because he was stressing me out so much.
01:14:29
Speaker
But actually, I remember very distinctly there was this career, he wrote career advice on psychology today, a guy called Marty Nemko. He's like a very pragmatic kind of writer. I really liked his a lot. I mean, I call them little because they're quite short. And one day he wrote something about people who have a fear of death. And he was like, well, you have no memories of before you're born. You don't know, like remember being like in turmoil or torment or whatever. Not to say like, you know, so we don't know. So he was like, well, it'll probably just be like that. There'll just be nothing.
01:14:58
Speaker
I'm not trying to say that that is what will happen. I'm just saying if you're someone who was going through a phase of being terrified of dying, I felt that kind of reassuring that it might just be like something I've already experienced before, you know, as in. Yeah, I mean, because if you believe that, and I mean, I think that's, yeah, certainly something that I consider is the case.
01:15:23
Speaker
I think, though, there's the fear of the actual dying as well. That's the thing. It's not that after the dying is over, it's, you know.
01:15:31
Speaker
presumably fine, because it's just like you said, like it's before, you don't even know anything about it, you don't exist. So it's fine. But it's the sort of lead up and the actual reason I don't want to go. Yes, exactly. Like I'm too young to die. But hopefully we'll all be nice and drugged up for die as a
01:15:58
Speaker
when we were 103. Yes, exactly. Yes, yeah. This is why people don't talk about it. Yeah, yeah. It's something with the religion and politics. But yeah, I guess, I mean, this is a big theme one, Denny. I don't know if you want to... Yeah, I don't know. I feel like we've probably covered them all as we talked through about the difficulties of, you know,
01:16:27
Speaker
youth in Asia? And should it be allowed? And what is life after death? Is there a life after death? And, you know, people's beliefs and, and yeah, even then there's the big right at the beginning, we had a whole theme about, you know, basically, I felt like jakota just going right back to the start was, it was like a little archaeology lesson. He was giving everyone about how we or history lesson, how we look at
01:16:54
Speaker
scenes from the past and consider what they could tell us about this particular simulation. Lots of themes. Yeah, there's a lot. There was a lot. And classic Star Trek. Hmm, I agree. I found it a quicker episode than some. Oh, yeah. But simultaneously a less complex one for all the trouble we sort of had with the theological stuff. I don't know. It was quite like sort of
01:17:24
Speaker
technology like one? No, no, I was gonna say sort of tame, like slow, it was, you know, lots of, you know, battles or stuff going on. It felt quite sort of, you know, relaxed pace, slow moving, I guess. I was gonna say, my star player was Harry, because I just think he did a great job of conveying the different emotions involved.
01:17:50
Speaker
I have to disagree. I think it was Jakote for giving Harry the framework with which to successfully engage a first contact situation whilst remaining respectful of the other cultures clearly batshit crazy misguided beliefs.
01:18:08
Speaker
at the start. He tried to get his cancels on. Hey, there are no fanarians listening to this podcast. So if you actually remove the batshit crazy misguided ideas from that, that's an actual accurate reflection of my thoughts that Shikote actually in taking Harry through his experience of how he misread a situation of first contact and share respect for others beliefs,
01:18:35
Speaker
he actually gave Harry a good framework of things to be careful and cautious in and with as he engaged the Veneri. So because of the fact that, you know, I always think that we should applaud those who help others to do better, for which reason I'm, you know, Ted Lasso fan for life. I'm voting Chiquote. Anyone who wishes to replace their vote may do so now.
01:19:03
Speaker
I really like your nomination, but I'm going to stick with Harry Kim because, yeah, I mean, A, I think the acting, I mean, so that's what I tell him. I was very absorbed and he, something actually went very wrong on like an early away mission and he handled it very well. Yep. Plus, you know, his attitude right at the start as well, too.
01:19:29
Speaker
not getting his idea picked. Thank you for listening anyway, entirely non sarcastic way. The only final thing I want to say is, when I've been listening to Delta flyers and other podcasts, something they often mention, especially on Delta flyers is like the variation pronunciation of even main character names, and especially guest character names, and they're like point out like, Oh, someone said it like this, and then they said it like that.
01:19:57
Speaker
And I was always like, how can these actors always be pronunciation? I struggled so much with like getting just the names written down this time. So I had a little bit of empathy and sympathy for actors and pronunciation on this episode. I don't know why, because I don't think they're any different. But I just struggled this week. There were a lot of names this week. I didn't remember any of them. But yeah, I guess that brings us to the end.
01:20:26
Speaker
We'll be back in hopefully two weeks if this podcasting thing works out in terms of distribution with, what's the next episode? Prime factors, according to... Indeed, indeed.
01:20:41
Speaker
Jamie, do you want to sing us out or anything? Wow. Okay. I clearly haven't been as lively as I am normally on this particular one. It's a profound one, I think. It's a very profound episode.
01:20:57
Speaker
And with its nuance and its sort of use of uncertainty as the space to let God enter the room, as Ted Lasso once said, misquishing someone else. So no, I don't have much else to add beyond what we've said. A lot of love for Star Trek this week and a lot of love for Ted Lasso on that note. That's so nearly all.