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We watch "Eye of the Needle" (S1 Ep.7)
40 Plays2 years ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching “Eye of the Needle” in which Voyager discovers a micro-wormhole and contacts a Romulan ship in the Alpha Quadrant. They use the wormhole to transport messages and explore the possibility of transporting the crew, but discover the Romulan captain is from the past and cannot interfere with the timeline.
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Transcript
Episode Setup and Jamie's Insights
00:00:00
Speaker
I mean, I could go and get my notes, but it's an awfully long three metres and I just, I feel like winging this one. I really enjoyed this one. And there was a plot structure that I felt flowed. And so I'm not going to get up and interrupt this to move three metres to get my notes. Okay. Well, you can always change your mind, but that is great because we were supposed to record this last week. And for that week, I watched the episode twice and listened to the podcast.
00:00:29
Speaker
This week, I just watched the episode in the background and hoped I could still decipher my notes. I was like, well, I'm sure I can lean on Jamie because he's caught up today. Well, I've watched it twice too, so I feel like I know this one really well. You guys have both watched this twice. I've watched this once, due to being cack-handed last week. If I remember it better than you guys watching it twice, presumably with your notes to hand,
00:00:59
Speaker
Am I Jake Ralter, an amazing detective slash genius? Yes, we'll give you that award. So I think it's quite interesting that it starts with Captain Janeway talking about the enthusiasm of Harry Kim. Jamie, you're going to give us the one line summary. Keep jumping ahead.
00:01:19
Speaker
you want me to give the one oh goodness i mean yes this is an awful lot less edifying um but yeah basically um it's uh it's probes getting stuck down narrow passageways great summary very succinct before we before we dive in as as opposed to
00:01:39
Speaker
Nobleman at the end of a 30 centimetre wormhole rift takes grave risk to career, which potentially ends up in his anonymous assassination, but we never find out.
00:01:53
Speaker
I wanted to mention that I'm drinking this, not for any commercial reasons. Can we just say that again again? Yes, for the listeners, I'm holding this vocabulary. But white claw hard salsa, black cherry, which I have to admit I'm now addicted to. Is that white
Product Placement and True Crime Podcasts
00:02:10
Speaker
claw hard salsa, hard cherry? Black cherry. Which company is that? Just for me to know, no other commercial reason.
00:02:20
Speaker
White Claw. For those who love Star Trek. Well, actually it's for those who love true crime because I heard about it when I was listening to a true crime podcast. How are we ever going to get any product placements or endorsement thread? We just utterly ruined them by saying that you got them thinking about a non-referential subject. But for anyone who knows, I was inspired by true crime detectives. Is that what they're called?
00:02:48
Speaker
Is that Woody Harrelson and company? No it's um oh my gosh I'll have to look it up um it's a woman from superstore and her cousin and they're hilarious um and I can't believe I wasn't so often and I don't actually know what it's called oh true crime and cocktails with uh Laura Lauren Ash and Kristy Oxborough sorry so back to Star Trek I just had to you know
00:03:12
Speaker
You just had to ruin our first potential paid endorsement from Michaela. We have maybe wanted to go and get a drink out of it. Right at the start, right before we even help again. We can always, well, we can take a break halfway. We can take a break now. No, let's go. Jamie, back to you.
Plot Analysis and Acting Skills
00:03:31
Speaker
It's not back to me. I'd fulfilled my role. I'd not only gave you one, I gave you two succinct summaries.
00:03:37
Speaker
That was brilliant. Yeah. So I think we start off and we're back in the captain's log and she's giving some dates that none of us understand. Although this episode, it actually pays to understand. So, but, um, I think they're in 2370 just in case you forgot. Okay. Thank you. Um, they found a subspace.
00:03:57
Speaker
You guys do understand the dates. They were very helpful in this one because they spell it out for you at the end. It's very helpful. I mean, as as you understand, now it's 2023, which means 2023 years after the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ read, then it's 2371, which is 2371 years after the birth of Jesus Christ. I can count. I just don't get the opportunity to be patronizing very often.
00:04:27
Speaker
Okay. That was hilarious. Sorry about that. No problem. My notes are a bit scattered, but basically there's a subspace anomaly. They want to take a closer look, which will require a detour, but everyone's keen. I think Harry Kim picked up this anomaly. When they realized it's a wormhole, Tom Paris is very
00:04:53
Speaker
He wants Harry Kim to get some credit and he's like, can we call this a Harry Kim wormhole? And there's something a bit ironic about the fact that Harry Kim gets sort of foisted with this disappointing wormhole in that scene is revealed when they sort of scan it. They're like, I can't see anything.
00:05:14
Speaker
There's something coming up in the signals, but I just can't see it. We have to magnify and magnify. And then they're like, this is a really disappointing wormhole. It's only 30 centimeters wide. I mean, yeah, the disappointment when you think you found a wormhole and no one has even considered that it might be of all the like technical hurdles or whatever. It's really bad when you think you found it and you know, you haven't. Yeah. It's really disappointing.
00:05:40
Speaker
Paul, I think it is. I agree. Especially since they said it's a one in four chance of leading to the Alpha quadrant, so it's very unlikely. And then it turns out, if I'm not jumping too far ahead, that, amazingly, it is that one in four, but as you say, unfortunately, it's like microscopic. Is that a male 30 centimetres or actually 30 centimetres wide diameter?
00:06:06
Speaker
Well, I was a bit confused, right? Because they were like, oh, it's 30 centimeters in diameter. And then they're like, it's, well, I guess they say it's virtually microscopic. I was like, 30 centimeters is not microscopic. Yeah, exactly.
Cultural Commentary and Leadership Discussion
00:06:20
Speaker
Microscopic in space terms, maybe. I could turn this entire episode into very, very sort of euphemistic and UN-doish sort of an affair. And I feel bad even using the word affair in that context. I'm assuming we don't want me to sidetrack this by doing that. And at every opportunity that someone says something that makes me sort of giggle in a smutty way, I'm assuming
00:06:49
Speaker
That would ruin the tone if I took that approach to this episode, right? I think you should take whatever approach feels natural to you. And if you are naturally a 16-year-old boy, you shouldn't have liked that.
00:07:01
Speaker
not with this receding hairline but um i mean i mean i just said that some must be very happy with 30 cents anyways carry on carry on there's a 16 year old in all of us there is i mean as you started saying that really well hope not that would be sexual assault ah Jamie as you said that i read all my notes and i just saw probe and i giggled to myself so yeah there's i think there's a self-conscious nod to that in this episode because there's a lot of the probe is caught
00:07:30
Speaker
But the crux of the matter of this, not microscopic, but 30 centimeter diameter, they can't fly through. But there is good news. It can act as a conduit for a message if it goes near the alpha quadrant, which, as you said, Jenny, they find. So they launch a probe or microprobe.
00:07:54
Speaker
Jamie, anything to say? Again, I just feel there was a slight self-consciousness on the part of the writers saying, well, it's a minuscule hole, but we can send a microprobe down there. But I did like some of the dialogue from Janeway at this point, because I think that the probe gets stuck at some point because the wormhole is actually collapsing. And Janeway was like, it's been collapsing for centuries, which I thought was like just a nice
00:08:30
Speaker
It gives you a feel of like the age and grandeur of the universe sort of moving away from the smuttiness of some of my perception of the episode.
00:08:40
Speaker
I think Janeway brings to this episode a unique sense of the enthusiasm and the keenness of the crew and some of that keenness of the character to serve and serve superbly in some of her interactions in this. So her enthusiasm for Harry Kim's idea, her enthusiasm for the possibility and dialogue along the lines of
00:09:00
Speaker
Well, Mr. Tuvok, you might think there's a three-quarter chance not, but I prefer to think there's a one-quarter chance that it might be. And that's the positive. And she really brings that throughout this episode. And I found myself warming to her character more than I had for much of it, including her sort of
00:09:21
Speaker
enthusiastic desire when she initially engages with Kez. Kez, what can I do for you? I really like that but I was a bit struck and I thought it might have been slightly overacted later in the episode where Kez does that and then Kez actually brings up something and the captain has to sort of question herself and her own performances and there's almost a sort of clash there which
00:09:45
Speaker
almost isn't what you'd expect from a captain as keen to sort of check and make sure their crew's needs are being met. Well, I'm glad you said that about her, because, as I think I've mentioned before, when I started rewatching this in 2019,
Character Dynamics and Ethical AI Debates
00:10:00
Speaker
I was just like, Oh my gosh, I'd love to have a manager or boss or whatever. That was like captain Janeway because she's like, so she understands the details. She's like the scientist. That's why she's so enthusiastic. She's like, got such deep knowledge, but she's like motivates her crew and she understands when to like, you know, um,
00:10:20
Speaker
actually so, as you say, enthusiastic and encouraging and knowledgeable. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I want to ask the question. And she's very rare human, I think, because she's basically got all of the qualities like, because in real life, you tend to get all the people who really know their stuff really sciency detail oriented. They're rarely in put in positions of leadership, are you? And usually in leadership sessions, you get everyone
00:10:44
Speaker
who's the sort of motivational speaker and that isn't so great. Yeah. And then, um, the sort of caring empathetic, um, understanding side. Um, that's a whole nother element as well. And like she sees, she's just embodies all of them. She's just got the whole package. I don't know about you, but I can't say I have very frequently come across, um, leaders, um, who can embody all those, um,
00:11:14
Speaker
Fantastic characteristics. Yeah, it is difficult because you sort of for the people leadership, you can't afford to get lost in the technical detail. I disagree, but that could be a whole another podcast. But if you don't know the technical leadership, it's very hard to do the people leadership in the right direction. Yeah, the thing is, you're not you're not talking about getting lost in it. It's just talking about knowing it. Maybe because she was interested in it.
00:11:44
Speaker
Yeah, and having done that, you know, dedicated a certain portion of your life to that means that you then understand it when you move into a more leadership type position. It's a bit like, you know, you know, how a lot of politicians at least in the UK come from backgrounds where they have just been learning how to be a politician. Yes.
00:12:09
Speaker
Yeah, and then they get put in a position which like is in charge of all transport or health care. And you're like, this is a terrible idea. Like, why wouldn't you have someone who's like, you know, has been a doctor, at least for some of their life in charge of the healthcare system or in some way has some kind of experience in that field, as well as, you know, political skills.
00:12:33
Speaker
Anyway. Yeah. I mean, I agree. I'm also on a tangent and I agree, but I just want to be like, I agree as someone who has no deep knowledge in anything. So I can't even be the kind of leader that she is. But, um, basically the wormhole gets stuck. Oh, sorry. The micropro gets stuck in the micro wormhole, but they can pick up that someone's scanning them on the other side. So that's good news. And then we moved to sick bay where we have the most annoying, rude patient of all time, Baxter. What did you guys think?
00:13:02
Speaker
I see myself in him. He was pretty weird, I've got to say. Why would you? I mean, I don't really understand that attitude. He's sort of rude to the, I think
00:13:18
Speaker
He's being used to make a point that
Wormhole Communication and Romulan Encounter
00:13:20
Speaker
the crew don't really treat the Doctor with much respect, because they sort of write him off as a hologram, and he's sort of being hammed to make that point. But I think there's also a degree of, like, they try and have him talking to Kez to make that perhaps a bit more ambiguous, because there's an element to me of, is he coming on to her as well by sort of going for sympathy? No, okay, right, no, right, my bad. Really? You really showed me down there.
00:13:48
Speaker
You know, I'm sorry Jamie, that was a very interesting perspective, but no. Okay, I choose to maintain a different subjective perspective on this instance than you do, but either way, he is being rude to the doctor. Yes. Whether it's because he's being deliberately rude to the doctor, or he's being rude by focusing on Kez because he wants to sort of come on to her or just get her sympathy. He's still rude to the doctor. Yeah. Is that something that we might sort of agree on as opposed to just no?
00:14:16
Speaker
I definitely agree with that, but I think, I mean, I don't know what you thought Jenny, but, um, I have read recently and you know, people at work have told me, it's not something I'm aware of having experienced, but I thought this was a good, I'm not sure if it's to the point, but there are a lot of times where women are in meetings with men and men just talk to the other men. Um, like clients, like if we, I've had a colleague say, oh, I went into a meeting with a client and took, you know, a female colleague and the client just spoke to him.
00:14:45
Speaker
And this does happen a lot. I mean, I read onto it to someone who hired a handyman to help around the house and he called her husband to check that that's what he actually wanted. So I'm not sure that was a hundred percent the point, but I was wondering, like, as a woman, I kind of recognized it. And I was wondering, like, as a male viewer, would you even realize that maybe that is a comment commentary on that?
00:15:14
Speaker
The fact that by talking to Kez solely, who is female, but. Reflecting the actual female experience. Of being talked to as opposed to the experience. So the doctor is experienced. The doctor is experiencing the typical female experience is what you're basically saying.
00:15:41
Speaker
I don't know if it was intentional. It might not even be the female experience. It might just be the experience of group that is marginalised. Yeah, 100%. I'm only a female. So I can't comment for other groups. But I thought it was like a clever thing because I think that does happen. But I don't know if it was intentional. So I was just wondering if you guys could also pick that up. No, I didn't. But it's a really interesting point. And then I'm gonna, yeah.
00:16:08
Speaker
I think I would say I think that I mean, maybe I'm just not aware of it. But I think that I'm lucky in that I haven't experienced that a lot in my field. I can think of specific instances where it's happened, but they were quite rare. Like they stick in my mind, because that, that actually happened. And I was quite shocked by it, you know, because it seems rare to me. I appreciate that's just my industry and my
00:16:32
Speaker
area. And I think it's probably different in different situations. Interestingly, in my old job and team, which is to remain nameless to avoid me getting sued, the leadership sort of cadre one rank above and two ranks above me was, I think, 80% female. And there were
00:16:55
Speaker
very, very, very occasional instances of the same phenomenon in reverse that you just described. Now, nothing like as often as I've seen it and the way that you've described it, because I have seen the
00:17:09
Speaker
men talk to other men, ignoring women in the room thing. Um, but there were sort of occasions like that, if that made any sense. Yeah, sure. My point is, this is a point of science fiction, right? You don't just show exactly what's happening on earth. You show it like from a different, um, like you swap the roles or you swap the things, but it's still a commentary on treating someone as subhuman because they don't meet your expectations of something.
00:17:35
Speaker
Yeah, sorry, that wasn't me going normal men, by the way, that was me saying. No, no, of course not normal men. I've seen it in both sides and I also recognise the plot device which you're articulating so much more eloquently than I that takes place in that scene. But after that whole deep dive into feminism there quickly, sorry guys. Sorry fellas. The main point of this scene is I think we're finding out that Kiss is really keen in her like expanding her knowledge and helping the doctor and very stimulated by all her learning.
00:18:05
Speaker
And then I always laugh because then the doctor gives her those pads, you know, like the
00:18:10
Speaker
with the data that she has to learn. And I'm always like, so close, but so far, because why are there multiple pads? I had the exact same thought.
Time Travel Twist and Strategic Dilemmas
00:18:20
Speaker
I'm like, that is so basic. Like, why are there these big chunky things? You invented the iPad, but it's limited in like how much data it can hold. You can only have one book and one iPad. With one subject. You make a Kindle, but you have to have a library of Kindle.
00:18:43
Speaker
Sorry, I always laugh when that happens. If we've got time, I was going to jump quickly back to that. You know that doctor that you're talking about it, and the whole feminist element was really interesting because I hadn't even occurred to me. What most struck me about that scene was that the way the guy was behaving initially, I was like, Oh, that's weird. And then I was like, actually, it's really not weird at all. Because
00:19:05
Speaker
We experienced so much of that in the same way that people where the doctor says to him, well, if you're not sure whether you'd let me operate on you, then hopefully you wouldn't die before you get me. And it just reminded me so much of this like anti-vax and like kind of attitudes of some people. So I was like, oh, okay, that is a real life thing. People do behave like that. Yes. Yeah, I think so.
00:19:29
Speaker
Um, because I think it is a bit, I mean, obviously it is a bit exaggerated how kind of rude he is. And to be fair, most people aren't that rude in real life, but on Twitter. Um, next, I think we're in the, in the briefing room, um, try and they try to get to grips with what's happening on the other side of the wormhole. And we find out the, the, the probe is still stuck. I will be destroyed in 72 hours. So that starts the clicking, clicking.
00:19:57
Speaker
But they plan to try to use the probe to communicate with the other side. And I just remember Tuvok hinting at future disappointment. I guess, I guess, I mean, Harry is so excited because Harry out of everyone, it seems the most desperate to get back home or be in contact with his family. Tuvok obviously maybe has those feelings, but he's more like tempered and rushed. I don't feel my feelings. Um,
00:20:25
Speaker
And then we go to... No, he chooses. He chooses. Do not let them control him. Yes. It's very different. Correct. Correct. And then we're in engineering and we have that kind of nice scene with Harry and Balana where we find a bit more about why I guess they're different attitudes. So Balana kind of was like, well, there's no one on earth that cares. And Harry's like, I speak to my parents every week. They're going to be so worried.
00:20:52
Speaker
It's interesting, like thinking about it from the perspective of where I am right now, because I've been out of the UK now for like a good sort of five months. And obviously you expect to miss people like friends and family. But from Balana's perspective, I'm like, I don't know, I think you'd still be able to get home because it's not, you know, I don't think it's just about the people. Obviously that what you expect to miss the most, but actually like it's just like familiarity of environment.
00:21:20
Speaker
So I miss Britishness, you know, Britishy things and countryside and the just general environment and something. Does that mean you're coming back? No, no, no, no, not necessarily. That won't be the driver. My job will be the driver. Can I counterpoint that?
Cultural References and Media Critiques
00:21:40
Speaker
Yes, but can I just finish my thought? Oh, forgive me. I did the mail thing of not letting you finish. I'm so sorry.
00:21:46
Speaker
It's... any gender can interrupt him. But anyway... It's just mine that excels at it. My gosh, I am the worst interrupter. I'm not gonna put it on my mind. Sorry to any. That's a great example, thanks for that. It's the first four years of our friendship, right, Red?
00:22:01
Speaker
That was a sustained attack on my mental health, but that's different. Yes, but that was by Jamie Lowe. Sorry, sorry, sorry. I was just going to say that there's like, I think also there's just like a completely ineffable quality of missing a place that isn't like even like the food or the environment or the people. And so I suspect that the Lana has that somewhere. And also, I think, you know,
00:22:30
Speaker
If you spend too long in another place, then you become, you get to this point where wherever you are, you're going to miss one place. That is true. You're out of England for that long and then you go back. It'd be nice, but you'll miss the place that has become your second home. Yeah. I mean, I can attest, but Jamie, did you want to counter that?
00:22:54
Speaker
I always thought that Bolana considered her home to be her crew, so I didn't think she had any link to any particular planet, so the thing that she'd actually miss would actually be when they got back to the Alpha Quadrant and all the crew went their separate way.
00:23:13
Speaker
and then her home was gone. And I think that was sort of my read on the character. As much as I do completely, completely acknowledge the phenomena that you've just articulated. Yeah, I think you're right to an extent. But it's lovely because she creates her family on the board, on board the ship, doesn't she, over the various seasons? Yeah. So that even when they return, she still retains that sense of home.
00:23:42
Speaker
But yeah, you're right. I guess maybe for her, it's just, well, it depends what her background is. I suppose she's been on a ship most of her life, hasn't she? Yeah, that's, that's sort of what I thought and what informed my Fiona. But then, I think she has, sorry, I was gonna say she has been abandoned by like, well, she will feel abandoned by her dad, doesn't get on with her mom. And she does say her family is on, on like, because they had to merge, is on
00:24:12
Speaker
But I actually don't really know. I think she grew up on Earth. Oh, anyway. She's still a bit of a blank canvas. I love her character. I love her story line throughout the whole thing. It's great. And I guess she has this period where she starts like re-embracing her culture.
00:24:43
Speaker
spiritual spirit yeah like spiritual identity I guess where she's sort of she's always been hating her Klingon part but then there's various episodes where she sort of lets it back in yeah so maybe that's part of her what she considers home
00:25:06
Speaker
But I think by the end of the scene, they have managed to set up a comms link with the probe. Does anyone want to have a go at the science or the engineering behind this? At one point, I was like, this seems very complicated. Then at another point, I was like, wait, they just put a probe in, and they send a message to the probe, and the probe reads the message to someone on the other side. Is that it? That's literally it. OK, good. This is getting very complicated. Then I was like, wait.
00:25:30
Speaker
It's as though, like, the probe has a computer in it and a radio transmitter. Ah, radio transmitter. Smacked. So, like, if the probe received a message and the message was to the computer to retransmit the message back down the other end of the wormhole in which the probe had been stuck, then presumably in spite of technology being limited to one-book iPads at this stage was more relevant.
00:26:00
Speaker
that's not beyond the bounds of techno sorcery is how I read this article. I mean, as I was listening to your explanation, for some reason, I was reminded of this radio station I was listening to growing up in South Africa, Radio 5, and two hilarious DJs, or one DJ and a sidekick, explaining how the internet worked, and just describing little men in packets. So, that's it.
00:26:22
Speaker
I mean, I'm slightly influenced by the fact that one of the science fiction universes that I take great enjoyment from is the Warhammer 40001, in which humanity has basically got a stack load of technology, which has completely forgotten how it works. Basically just
00:26:41
Speaker
Instead of like turning on a computer, you have these weird priests doing incredible amounts of ritual before just pressing this buttoners. And do the final ritual activation press of the button to summon the machine spirit. Oh my god, if that's where we land up. I would not be surprised. I would not either. We can't help us can we? Okay, so back to the bridge. You're moving me off to, you're moving me off this, okay.
00:27:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think, well, I think I've got quite a few pages left to go. So, um, they, we're on the bridge next and they're sending the test signal and waiting for response. Um, I felt like I could really feel the tension. Like I think a nod was a week ago, but when they pan over everyone's faces, they really look quite tense or quite, um, Anticipation, maybe. Yes. Yes. Some good acting, I think are there. Um,
00:27:40
Speaker
And they, oh, you disagree. I think a lot of people are acting very hard in that. I was there for instance. I like bad acting. I think what I like about it is that they all really improve as the seasons go on as well. Like we can see them like really. I never said they're acting badly. I think they start off perfect. I don't, I don't agree with Jen. Sorry. I was saying they're bad at the beginning. I'm just saying I like seeing them gradually also improve and
00:28:11
Speaker
Yes, they're a little bit more subtle towards the later episodes, I'd say. And it's less obvious that they are in fact acting. That does remind me, I had forgotten and I don't think I was going to mention it. And now I'm so confused because writing all the summaries, well, with chat GPT for the different episodes, I could be, maybe I did mention this, but when I listened to the Delta Flyers podcast episode, um,
00:28:39
Speaker
I did get one anecdote from it, which was quite, um, cause Harry Kim, Garrett Wan was like, someone, I can't remember, but he was, someone at a convention was like, yeah, your crew for the, like on Voyager was the best looking Star Trek crew, or you were all too good looking. And I was like, I mean, I was like, is that true? And then I was like, well, they all good looking, but you know, it's TV. So you kind of expect everyone to be good looking. I don't know.
00:29:04
Speaker
Alex isn't great. Well, he's cute for an alien. I don't know. And then the actor that got one was said was that he met like a young woman at a convention and she started watching it when she was seven. And she misheard Anson for handsome. So she thought like Harry Kim's name was Handsome Kim. That's amazing. It took her like seven years to realize that they weren't saying handsome, which is quite cute.
00:29:39
Speaker
You know, you've got seven of nine, which is just like peak hotness. And then... I'm sorry, Balana's also peak hotness. Well, that's what I was going to say though. That's a good day, peak hotness. And this is my point. This is my point. Because you're like, normally they're like, oh, well, as long as there's one super hot person, that's fine. But it's like, they have her. And then, but here's the thing, Janeway's super hot. Balana's super hot. Like, they're really attractive. How are you super hot? I agree. So did someone say that? I think too much. It's very handsome.
00:29:58
Speaker
It does seem like quite a high percentage of attractiveness.
00:30:06
Speaker
did you just say someone was stripper hot yes okay you guys said that because like i
00:30:25
Speaker
Yes, we're gonna get there, we're gonna get there. But last thing I wanna say. I would like to say that I'm appalled by this latent objectification of women and the sexism inherent therein. Wait, we're gonna move on. But last comment on the handsomeness. I mean, I would say the doctor's handsome. He's like, he's always got like, I mean, he's a, I guess he's a character actor, whatever, but he's like handsome, maybe. But a hilarious side note, I watched an episode of The Golden Girls the other evening, and the doctor was on it as a doctor, but he had hair. Wow.
00:30:55
Speaker
Weird. Yeah. So, oh my gosh. So I hope we've sustained the tension for long enough because when we were last talking about this episode, they were waiting for the signal. They get a response and they figure out that the signal has already originated in the alpha quadrant. So I guess things are looking up. And Harry Kim wants to see if they can set up a voice link because they've got some kind of comms link. So, um,
00:31:26
Speaker
The next thing is we're in the ready room and Kess wants to talk about the doctor. So I guess, Jamie, this is when you had a couple of feelings about Jamie that you alluded to earlier. Yeah, because like, it's a bit of a weird one that because initially I was like, wow.
00:31:47
Speaker
Kes comes in and the skipper is so open to someone who presumably has literally the lowest possible Starfleet rank coming into her on her presumably open door policy of one hour blocked out each day that anyone can come and talk to her.
00:32:07
Speaker
and that she's very, oh my goodness, no, someone's not getting their concerns met. But then the moment she's told it's the doctor, and this is possibly one of the devices they use quite a lot with Janeway, she initially hard dismisses, because it doesn't tally with her belief system, and they always, I sort of think, make her rethink that position, having initially used that dismissal as something that generates a little bit of conflict, because actually,
00:32:37
Speaker
When Kes says that, the skipper's actual response is a hard no. Of course the doctor isn't being treated badly. He's a hologram. No one cares. Even when she agrees to reluctantly look into it, it's
00:32:57
Speaker
It's not an I'll look into it, the trust or take particularly seriously or particularly deescalates the tension between the two. Do you see what I mean? When they leave, if I was kissed, I'd be a bit like, I'm not fucking going back there with, you know, concerns that, you know, that sort of thing, if that's how she reacts. Although, you know, on the face of what she says, it's not a hard no, but it is a cold, cold yes.
00:33:27
Speaker
I think you can tell that she, her immediate response is to be like, well, but that is because this is a computer. So you wouldn't really be asking a computer for its needs and its emotional needs and things. But like, because of Jamie's character, you if I was cares like, I would know that she had listened and would consider it.
00:33:55
Speaker
which is all that I think Kezz is looking for. So I get what you're saying. You can tell immediately that Janeway is not. Of course, absolutely. That's a really good point. And, you know, we should definitely look into the doctor's needs, but you know that you can trust that she will consider what's been said. Or you don't know at this stage, but her actions after this establish her as someone that you can trust to do that. Maybe this is the first time we've seen that.
00:34:21
Speaker
But it comes back again and again. It was quite interesting watching her sort of opinion change on the matter. I always wish like they, this is one of those episodes where you wish that you could have a bit of a insight into the internal dialogue of a character. Like as she sort of seems to be steady changing her mind. Cause in the end of a species, she's open to asking what the doctor needs. Well.
00:34:46
Speaker
That does spark something, but it is jumping ahead, but she does. I mean, maybe this scene always, I kind of bothered me when I watched it many times before because, you know, idolize the captain. And I was like, how could she say he's early a hologram? Like I was kind of, um, I thought she was like, uh, I don't know what the right word is. I don't know if it's open-minded or whatever, you know,
00:35:09
Speaker
That is, but because I mean, I don't know, but I made a note here because I like say please and thank you to my speaker. And like when I'm working with Chachi BT, I'm like, that's amazing. Thank you. I mean, maybe that's a sign that I'm insane. And in no way do I believe these things are conscious or sentient, but.
00:35:26
Speaker
As opposed to me who thinks there's a gestalt consciousness. Yeah, I really don't. Similar to the way that there is an Eldar deity developing in the gestalt consciousness of the Wraithbone in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. I think we need to start a podcast about that. So when she says like, he's only a hologram, I was like, ouch, like, I felt like quite like, you're so like, narrow minded.
00:35:54
Speaker
But she does also raise, I mean, she is very defensive in the beginning. And it's not only that he's a hologram, it's that she's been getting bad reports of his behavior, and his hindsight manner, and had been considering even like reprogramming him. Because that's me, he doesn't have a good, bad, hindsight manner. Yeah, well, with you people, never else your permission went to turn you off. And that's what I was gonna say, but it is jumping ahead. Like, what prompts her? When you said, what makes you change your mind? There's that moment in that scene later on where he's really annoyed.
00:36:22
Speaker
And I think that's like, maybe, I guess that emotional thing that must be like, okay, this, this thing gets annoyed. I can relate to annoyance. That's a really good point. Yeah. Maybe that's part of it. She sees that he's irritated and that's a human emotion and it's a bit of a surprise to her. And I mean, I'm, I would be more like her at the beginning to be honest, because to me,
00:36:49
Speaker
it can imitate is so advanced. That's the whole point is the super advanced that it can imitate all these human things and human emotions, but it is just a computer. So, but I don't know, from my perspective, like, I would be more in agreement with cares purely because although the computer doesn't in fact, it's just imitating emotions, it doesn't feel emotions that we're aware of. I do think that there's something to be said for still treating it as though it
00:37:16
Speaker
as though it can feel emotions. Because I think if you get into a environment where you're able to treat a thing which looks and behaves like a human, as if it's not human, then I think you're creating a very risky environment where people are used to treating things with cruelty. Yeah, things with cruelty. Exactly. The other thing is that like, a long time ago,
00:37:43
Speaker
prior to this, the whole science fiction test of whether something is sentient is the Turing test, which is like, could the doctor stand the other side of a piece of, you know, of a wall, and you have a conversation with him, and you'd be convinced you're having a conversation with an actual person? And the answer to that is a straight up yes. So you're a bit like... That's a very simple test. Mm. Yeah. I thought it was... I thought it was the...
00:38:13
Speaker
I thought the thing was whether it can learn. No, it's whether it can convince you that there is a person on the other side of the wall. Now, the doctor would undoubtedly pass that test. And you're a bit like, there's a blind spot in their universe, so they can create something, they can learn with that degree of complexity, and yet treat it so disrespectfully because it's, you know,
00:38:37
Speaker
There comes a point where you're like, if you're going to treat something that can act in such a sentient way with such disdain, then what is it to you that is so special and different about biological sentience that means that that gets treated differently? For instance, data is a machine.
00:39:07
Speaker
should he be treated dismissively just because he's a machine the same or, you know, his mind is a computer program sort of synthetic mind. And that there's treatment there. Yeah. Yeah. Also on a machine learning or natural language processing, sorry, I'm just throwing those terms out without, you know,
00:39:27
Speaker
thing, shouldn't people treat him nicely? Because if people treat him nicely, he will learn to treat other people better and his bedside man will improve. Yeah. But that's just a little thought that pops into my brain. Yeah, no, I, yeah, I basically agree with Kes, but for different reasons. Yeah. Yeah. Because to me, like, reality is a computer program. So I think it's highly unlikely it would feel emotion in the same way humans feel. But
00:39:55
Speaker
for all these other reasons, I don't think they should ever, he should always be treated like with the same sort of respect and empathy of an actual human. What is that saying that I've never quite understood, which is like, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck or something, it is a duck. I don't know if it sounds like a duck can walk. I feel like in this case, it applies. I don't really understand the same. But
00:40:22
Speaker
It's a reductive way of trying to tar people with a particular brush. So basically. But I've heard it's like in programming or software development, like, anyway, okay. Sorry, digression. I'm not sure, but it's something to do with like, maybe, I don't know, definitions or, you know, things in code. I could be talking absolutely rubbish right now. We go back
00:40:48
Speaker
We wouldn't know. But someone's mistake will if we get listeners. It is a form, a duck test is a form of abductive reasoning, usually expressed as if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck, but not certainly. High likelihood, but not sufficient proof. It's such a pointless phrase. Oh, I love it. I'm sorry I borrowed enough. Okay, next we're on the bridge.
00:41:16
Speaker
Um, and Harry is hard at work trying to get that voice link. Uh, and Jamie is very keen to try it out. And after three attempts, they get a clear transmission and it turns out they have, they're communicating with the cargo vessel. So he says a captain in the Alpha Quadrant. Um, Oh yes. Do they know that yet though? Uh, actually, he does say Romulan vessel.
00:41:46
Speaker
But the fact that the voyages in the Delta Quadrant seems to be like a major problem for the captain of the cargo vessel. Because he just can't seem to take anything that they say face value and he terminates the transmission. And Tuvok theorizes it's a Romulan science vessel, not cargo vessel. Yeah, so he must have said Romulan already. And so might be paranoid about Federation spies. And
00:42:10
Speaker
JMA still seems very focused on the mission of sending a message to Starfleet so she orders that they try to re-establish contact.
00:42:16
Speaker
And now we're going to see her beautiful night wear. I also absolutely love the fact she's like, Harry, repeatedly hail them until I was back. And I'm just like, this poor shit just getting constant missed calls. I quite like the, I quite like the, I wasn't a banana who says something like, yeah, typical, like we finally hail someone from the Alpha Quadrant and it's like a really, really, really hostile nation. Yeah, it's a bloody Romulan.
00:42:45
Speaker
Yeah. Um, but yes, I mean the night wear, I just, what happens is set the scene, right? Just to go back to Janie's point. I didn't notice this by the way, I didn't notice this at all. Sorry, just to go back to Janie's point when they're like, they made contact and it's Romulan. I feel like this episode is a lot of like two steps forward.
00:43:05
Speaker
or one step forward, two steps back. Like they make so many breakthroughs and then they have so many disappointments. But sorry, that's more actually to do with the theme later on, but your comment just sparked that. Ah, sorry, I'm jumping ahead. So we're not quite in Jamie's quarters, but before this Jamie goes to see the doctor. And she does acknowledge that he is much more than an EMH, the emergency medical heart of Brown. He's actually a member of the crew. And she asks, is there anything I can do to help you?
00:43:35
Speaker
And then my knowledge was, wow, good leadership. It's more than that actually, because not only does she ask, is there anything I'm going to do to help, she sort of acknowledges how tough it must be going from this limited parameter of how he was supposed to be used to having to be used for everything.
00:43:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's a bit of change in attitude from your stance with Kess of he's a miserable old git and he should be dismissed as a miserable old git because he's a computer. I feel like somehow we miss if there needed to be like another scene there, which was just like a monologue of her thinking. Yeah, the move seemed quite sudden. Maybe that's just maybe, you know, she is a captain. And
00:44:20
Speaker
she has to deal with conflict. And this is kind of conflict. And maybe she has a set method of dealing with her method is to put herself in another person's shoes before going off and saying, you know, why are you so grumpy? Or why are you so she might take a step back and be like, I mean, when you have to give feedback to someone at work or something, you might be like, Oh, actually, that person has been really busy. Or, you know, like, well, you know, so for me, it may explode. But it makes sense. She may be
00:44:50
Speaker
She's, she's said, okay, well, I was dealing with this from a, he's getting complaints. There's getting complaints about him, but now Kes has kind of come up with an alternative way to approach it. And she's like, right. Well, as a manager, as a leader, I'm going to try that approach. I'm going to ask him what he needs. And yeah, it might've been an excellent strategy. Well, I'm always, you know, how, well, I don't have to say it a million times, but, um,
00:45:18
Speaker
But just that's very simple question. Is there anything I can do to help people? I was like, I need to remember that for the future. Well, no one's ever going to ask me, but I should definitely remember to ask people what I'm working with. I don't know. This is a risky strategy. I feel like whenever I say that, because I do sometimes say that in my job.
00:45:36
Speaker
I'm always a bit concerned about the response because I just think the response is going to be, Oh my God, thank you so much. Yes. And then pile on all the work and I'm completely over capacity. But I guess that's just the importance of then being able to put down boundaries as well as offer help. Yeah. I did write down some of the doctor's lines here because
00:45:59
Speaker
Um, I felt they were good, but what I'd like is to be turned off when people leave. And I was like, wow, that is really irritating. If you just have to like stab it. And you can't sleep. And he's like, it is extremely. Yeah. Oh, you're actually doing something and people shut you off at their sources. Yeah. You really feel some empathy when he describes his experience.
00:46:27
Speaker
That would be crap. Although he also finds out about things very late indeed as well. But at this point, Janeway proposes that they can look into giving the doctor control of his deactivation sequence. But it's kind of like not immediate because she needs to get someone to look into it. So I don't even know if it happens in this episode, but she makes the commitment to look into it. And if we're happy to move on, now we're in Janeway's quarters. Finally, finally.
00:46:57
Speaker
beautiful outfit. Sorry. Now here's what I have to say about this outfit. This is why it's so fabulous because it's just, no, no, I have to, I have to have to die and say, you see, it's just, it's super sexy, but it's like covering everything. That's what I love about it. Like it's, it's understated. It's great. Yeah.
00:47:21
Speaker
The flawless hair at midnight. It is TV, guys. It is TV. I just made a very small comment. Hard to Janeway's pajamas. I did love the colour. I did love the silk or satin. I thought she looked great, but I also liked, I think she had like little, like she had the, I don't know what the term is. I would call it a 90. That's not the right term, but like. The night slip.
00:47:51
Speaker
night slip. And she had little silk trousers on underneath, I think. No, she didn't. She did, yeah. I mean, I wasn't looking that close. I thought it was like a full look. No, because I watched it three times. Okay, hang on. I think, can you share screen and can we watch this again just about? Yeah, I think she's got like, I mean, because it is very long and then just at the bottom, you can see she's got like the little like, um,
00:48:21
Speaker
matching. I think it's extremely important that we watch the scene again right now, just to check. I'm happy to be the guinea pig. Sorry, I'm sorry. I'm being deliberately, what's the word? Lecce because it's funny. I don't actually want to see this again. I always have a question about this episode, this scene as well.
00:48:45
Speaker
And, uh, every single time I watch it, I think the same question and then I answer it myself. Right. So why is this always come up in my head if anyone else, but it happens in the end of the scene. So maybe. Yeah. So she's, she's in her quarters and she gets like a message. I don't actually know the technical term for Harry Kim to say he's reestablished comms link. Um, he's reestablished the comms link, but the cargo captain will earn the.
00:49:15
Speaker
Uh, uh, what have I written? Uh, doesn't want to give his name. And I think he only wants to talk to Janeway or something. I don't know. I guess that's, I have no idea. Whatever, but cargo captain. Still coy, right? He's not giving you his name or too much detail, but he does seem to have confirmed, uh, their position in the Delta quadrant. So he is at least confirmed a part of their story, but he still seems a bit convinced of their spies. Um,
00:49:44
Speaker
And so Janeway already has to work very hard to make her request to him and like to connect with him on an emotional level. And I don't know if you guys want to talk about that, but she really wants him to relay the messages or relay messages from members of the crew back home. But- So it's depending with the theoretical question here. Yeah. Do we wonder if the captain of the other ship is trying to see if Janeway pulses the Turing test?
00:50:12
Speaker
Well, he's definitely trying to see if she passes some kind of test because he's like, he's kind of creating these elaborate, not paranoid, I guess, but elaborate... Hypotheticals. Hypotheticals. And she's like, what would be the point of that? We're like in the Delta Quadrant and we have no, you know, even if he was biased, how could we, you know... Use that information, it would take so many years to get back home. See, I think I'm naturally suspicious about him because I'm like, yeah, but he hasn't, he still thinks that there's a way they could have
00:50:43
Speaker
sort of show as if they are in the delt quadrant. So then if he doesn't quite believe yet that they are in fact in the delt quadrant, then they could be a threat. I mean, he probably is right to be suspicious because it's all kind of a bit of an unusual situation. But I think at this point, she really tries to connect emotionally and bring up family and I think it's in a scene I didn't actually include it in my notes. Or she makes the really big family
00:51:12
Speaker
speech later on, I think, but I think she does sort of touch on it in this bit where she's sort of talking about them all being lonely and, you know, saying you'd be free to read. We want to send some personal messages and you'd be free to read all of them and you'd be able to see that they're just written by some very lonely people. He does seem to, he would feel much better if he could see them and he's been actually working on a way to establish a visual like
00:51:42
Speaker
Yeah. So he just wants to take things very carefully one step at a time, I think. I found it funny. I don't know, Jamie, if you have the same, well, no, wait, that's me being making generalizations. But when I was into the Delta Flies podcast, the one guy was like,
00:51:57
Speaker
thought it was very creepy that while she was in her pajamas, he said like, I need to go to see you. And I was like, I didn't read that at all. Like, I mean, obviously, he's not gonna like, she's not gonna establish the official like, while she's in her. Well, I don't know, because it was a bit like,
00:52:14
Speaker
What happens if you ask to see her immediately so she can do no sort of Starfleet tech sorcery? Well, he has no idea that she's in her pajamas, so... Well, hang on, but here's my question. She's like, would she have taken the call immediately? This is actually related to the thing that always occurs to me. But does he in fact know that she's in her pajamas? Because he says good night, right? When he says it hangs off.
00:52:39
Speaker
And my question is, they're in space. So there's no like day and night. And even if they were completely different days and nights. So presumably, and my answer to myself is always, well, someone must have said when they patched him through, Oh, she's sleeping, but you know, we'll wake her up. Because otherwise, I'm like, how does he know to say good night to her? It's kind of creepy. Well, I think it could be an overlooked thing in the writing. But be I think, when you got when they got through, I'm sure someone was like, Okay, we're gonna patch you through like
00:53:09
Speaker
The reason why we patch you through is because she's, she's not, otherwise she'd answer this right now. This is the answer that I always come up with when this, this question comes up. Yeah. I guess, I guess it's just the space thing of like, yeah. Cause there's not actually really any night or night or daytime. What is, what's in another sci-fi book or is this somewhere where they had like a 23 hour day or is that deep space nine?
00:53:34
Speaker
Oh, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Right. So then we, on the bridge, ready to establish the visual link. We get a little hints every now and again that things are not quite as they should be because someone mentions the phrase phase variance for the second time. It sounds like this visual link, but we don't quite, it's just a hint. And we get the Romulan captain on screen.
00:53:58
Speaker
And also, I think it's clever that like, I mean, maybe they aren't purposeful, but the little hints that like, when he doesn't recognize the technology, or he's like, Oh, what do you got? How did you guys get there? Looking back at the end of the episode, like, that's why he didn't know all that stuff. Yeah. But he says, I don't recognize the ship. And yeah, and she explains that, but it's, it's not classified. Yeah. And there's a bit of, yeah, as you say, at the time, you think, Oh, well, that's just, you know, minor thing, but then later on, you discover why. Yeah. Hmm.
00:54:28
Speaker
Um, and I think it turns out he's spoken to his government about relaying the messages. Um, I just, and then we also find out that actually only have 48 hours to achieve this because this, you know, we, the, the one last little collapsing, ticking clock, ticking clock, ticking clock. Um, uh, yes, sorry, Jenny, this is where she really like, um,
00:54:51
Speaker
Because he also says, like, well, I can't tell you how long it's going to take because the government is going to go through it. And that's when she really makes that emotional family plea. I think you might like this episode read because this scene read because in a way the facts have been established. The message has been submitted. He said there's nothing I can do.
00:55:11
Speaker
It's been sent and now we wait and it's up to them. And it's a very sort of right. So that's the end of it. And that's like a very two book approach. And then two books, then Jamie asks him a question, which to two book makes a face up. It's a very like, what is going on here? This is why are we not saying thank you and goodbye. She says, you know, do you have a family to the Romulan?
00:55:34
Speaker
Um, captain and then, you know, two books like what is going on here? What, what is this going to help anything or anyone? And in fact, it actually just goes to show that, um, sometimes the sort of adding emotion into it really makes a difference because he inquires about his family and turns out he misses his daughter who he's never even met cause she's seven months old. And that emotional sort of empathy that then is evoked in the captain leads to him. Yeah.
00:56:02
Speaker
Yeah, I just interject, cutting in front of you. But I do love two bucks approach. But looking back on my work and job, I have to use that emotional approach, like 90% of the time to get stuff done, or to get agreement on a way forward. Yeah, I found the same and it took a long time to learn it. It's just very like sort of, you know, blunt and process driven. And then you realize that actually, okay, well, you are working with humans. And actually, if you
00:56:33
Speaker
it in a, you know, maybe some, some people need a bit of a rant first about how much work they've got on, because they're feeling a bit overwhelmed, but then they're more than happy to do the whatever the new request is, and all these little intricacies of human behaviour, and then things go a lot smoother. Yeah, Jamie. I was just going to say there's an interesting dichotomy in this scene, because the actual
00:57:00
Speaker
It's a once upon a long time ago, I decided to read some Star Trek Wikipedia. When I was I heard that basically the Vulcans and the Romulans had once been part of the same race. And that basically the Vulcans had bought their emotional side and impulses and feelings under control. Whereas the Romulans had effectively maintained that emotional link and were quite a lot more volatile due to it. And that was how their civilization
00:57:30
Speaker
diverged. And there's an interesting dichotomy here in that it's only the fact that the Romulan in this scene, Talakramar, as I think we find out that he's called later on, has that emotional capacity, which means he's open to being convinced to effectively do a morally good thing. And there's an interesting sort of
00:58:00
Speaker
What would the outcome of this have been of a Vulcan who theoretically, you know, aligned civilization, all of that sort of thing? Fine, but someone just of a Vulcan moral code, but not aligned with Starfleet had been on the far side of that conversation. And I find that very interesting and clever thought and cleverly posed thing. I know that the Vulcans are, you know, an aligned civilization with Starfleet, so hypothetical, but anyway.
00:58:26
Speaker
Well, yeah, as you said that I was like, that is a really interesting point. And I do think it's an interesting point. But then I think if you're arguing with a Vulcan, you would focus more on the decreasing time limit. Because that's a fact. And you'd be like, well, we've got 48 hours. Like we'd focus more on the data and the shrinking window to convince them because, you know, and that's like, Oh, the window wouldn't convince them to do it though. Because that's a fact and that it's escalated to like a higher priority.
00:58:54
Speaker
No, but this is before the priority thing. This is the, can you take or even consider asking about the message at all? Just different ways of negotiating with different types of people. I think we raised an interesting point. I disagree. I disagree. Because to me, Janeway actually convinces him to go away and ask, I would like to pass on this message, right? I agree to speed it up. To try and speed it up, yeah.
00:59:26
Speaker
I don't think that Janeway would have been able to convince a Vulcan to actually who was part of a non-aligned political organization, civilization. I don't think we're running out of time would have convinced them to take the message. Why not? Because there's no reason for them to take the message and pass it on to...
00:59:48
Speaker
If they'd both already, in this case, the person has already agreed what she's trying to get to. This is the thing, I don't think that they would have agreed. That makes any sense. Let me add another perspective. I think that if it was a Vulcan in that situation, Jay, that you're describing, they would have done it sooner.
01:00:09
Speaker
because I don't think they would have the emotion of paranoia so much. I think it would make logical sense for them too, because they are still a co-operative species, they're co-operative and they're logical, but the logical approach I think would possibly pass the message on once they'd examined the risk to them of them being spies or anything was so minuscule that it was illogical to be worried about that.
01:00:38
Speaker
I mean, this could be argued in the reverse direction. I'm going to just have to say, agree to disagree, because I actually think that if you're that stage of logic driven process, you would actually say, yeah, theoretically low risk, but I can't eradicate the risk. So I can't take a risk. But anyway.
01:01:00
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think you're raised an interesting point. I'm not sure I agree with like your. That's okay. But I think that is interesting because it is about, there's a lot of persuasion in here actually in this episode. And it is emotional emotion. Um, but, uh, so he does agree to try to speed things up and Janeway assumes everything's going to be successful. So we want another.
01:01:23
Speaker
I felt like this episode was like a roller coaster, but it was like a roller coaster that kind of just up, down, up, down, up. So they assume she orders the crew to prepare their messages, but Lana rushes in and she has to talk to Janeway straight away in private. She's got some very exciting news. She's bought something she's very excited to share. And here the opportunity arises. Yeah. So they might be able to transport through the wormhole.
01:01:52
Speaker
Does anyone? I mean, that's huge. I mean, I can't really give you how this one works, Red. Something with the frequency of transporting is very similar to the frequency of the Whirlpool communication link or something. I didn't even write it down, so yeah. We just need a plot device to make teleportation back to the Alpha Quadrant a theoretical possibility to dangle in front of the crew to see how everyone reacts.
01:02:20
Speaker
Good point. And as they say on other podcasts, when they say talk rubbish, don't come at me, but those podcasts have listeners. But this is huge. I mean, what was that Jamie, sorry? I just said, this is a wrong for going to those podcasts. And then we have that little moment of Jamie looking at the picture of Mark, who to be fair, and as I discussed, I wrote off ages ago, but maybe you guys will different me.
01:02:48
Speaker
Well, but then, I don't know, because earlier in the episode, Bolana's saying to Harry about how we haven't been gone that long and they'll still think we're lost and that they won't have stopped looking for us. So maybe at this point, her mark would still be around. No, I'm sure he would be, but in my mind, I wrote him off the minute I saw that picture of him. Same. Same. I love also that scene where Bolana's explaining very excitedly that they might be able to transport. They're like,
01:03:18
Speaker
We'll have to run a series of tests first." And I'm like, uh, yeah. Surely that is taking the obvious. Imagine they're just going to like send someone. Guinea pig. 100%. Um, 100%. So then we go back to sick bay, actually.
01:03:40
Speaker
Um, and we find out kiss kiss is very excited because she knows that they, they could be back on her soon. And she's like, tell us the doctor. She already wants to go to medical school. And he's like, well, you'll probably memory go. Oh yeah. Well, you've got the identity memory in real life, but he's like, well, you'll probably be qualified by the time we get back. And, um, he's like, she's like, haven't you heard? And this is where he makes his comments that you alluded to earlier, Jamie, which is like,
01:04:09
Speaker
I never hear about anything. So he's one of the last people to realize, find out that there is this potential route home. And that he won't be going back because he's integrated into the ship systems. Yeah. And he just wants her to make sure he's turned off.
01:04:31
Speaker
Aww. What a horrible, like, I mean, it's a pain such as a block into the image, like someone just, I don't know, going in, like, making them. I know. It's like turning off the lights, but being the last one to leave. Well, yeah, just make sure I'm not stuck here going crazy forever. Infinity just, yeah, stuck, alone, nothing to do. No heat, no sleep. Kind of makes the sort of
01:04:56
Speaker
those who dream of immortality, it's like the opposite, isn't it? It's like the nightmare of immortality. Yes. Exactly. I mean, I've never decided to be immortal. And I always think it's people that have too much money that start getting interested in this. And I'm like, is it because they have the resources to throw at this problem and they have nothing left to do? Or is it because that their life is so great, they don't want to die? I don't know. Well, yes.
01:05:23
Speaker
weird hybrids of both, isn't it? It's a it's a profound question. And sometimes it's a desire to just avoid any possible loss. And the only thing that they're not insulated from is the mental condition itself. Others, it's like, as you say, life is just so good that they fear losing that others is just the
01:05:47
Speaker
slightly Midasian paranoia. Or just fear of death. I don't want to die. Don't get me wrong, but I also don't want to live forever. You clearly have not watched enough Twilight. I think the word you're looking for there is any Twilight. I have not watched any Twilight that Jenny has not made me watch. I do. I recommend not watching because there was too many.
01:06:16
Speaker
the gosh, it's just this, you know, these beautiful people, they remain young and beautiful with absolute, you know, ill health or, you know, aching bones or anything. But they are fucked up. Or forever. But they are fucked up. They should watch it. It's, um, it does.
01:06:34
Speaker
Have you, talking of vampire, not porn, because it's not porn, but vampire spam, have you, and because I know that there are some Nicholas Cage fans on this, have you seen any adverts for the Nicholas Cage vampire movie called Renfield? It looks, that shit hilarious. I absolutely love it. It's got the actor, I think it's called Nicholas Holt from The Favourite and
01:07:02
Speaker
And so, the great, and I absolutely love him. I just sort of, I really, really love the look of it. Wow, okay. He was the kid in About a Boy, wasn't he?
01:07:17
Speaker
And he was a guest on that podcast I talk about all the time, How I Met Your Mother. Not How I Met Your Mother. My dad wrote a porno. Oh my God, I keep doing that. How was he? Yeah, he loves that podcast. So if you won't listen to me, at least I'll listen to you. Also, I'd just like to add a caveat read that
01:07:39
Speaker
I probably wouldn't recommend the drawing my movies just because they not only are they really bad but also they're very disgusting. I think that's maybe why I haven't watched them because I mean they were super popular but I might enjoy them but there's like there's a level of violence and cold that I can't really handle. They're pretty unpleasant. I just I do quite I mean I've never read the books or anything because I really don't think I'd like the books but
01:08:06
Speaker
the whole like, I love the little bits of it. I think the reason I like them is because they've got all these little like, they're a bit sci fi, you know, like, like vampires, they each have their special powers. And then there's, you know, one that can see the future and that sort of affects certain things. And then there's like this Italian mafia vampire clan. And it's sort of sort of Catholic position mafia. Yeah, yes. Yeah. And then and then there's the sort of
01:08:34
Speaker
vampires from Africa. Oh okay, maybe I should watch it. I watch most of my babies of the entire year and they run up to Christmas. I should just start making everything a Christmas movie, but maybe I can make it. But speaking of movies, I do really want to watch, this is very unusual for me, two movies that are out right now.
01:08:55
Speaker
the Super Mario's movie and the Dungeons and Dragons. I keep hearing good things. I want to see the Dungeons and Dragons one. Oh, I'd see that, even though I've never played it. No, me too. I've never, but I've heard it's like really good and like really accessible, even if like to people who've never played, but also has lots of like great moments for them, like, you know, proper fans. It has lots of Avengers movie comic moment stuff as well together.
01:09:19
Speaker
you know i would love to talk about a movie with you guys when and if you've watched it at some point um the um everything everywhere all at once oh yes i've heard of that i want to see it hang on jamie you need to hang on i need to put this on my list of movies to watch i'm just doing it now carry on every everything everywhere everywhere yeah all at once
01:09:41
Speaker
Yeah. And funnily enough, Jay, it was Gethin actually suggested I watch it like months and months ago, way before it won all the Oscars and everything. Oh, wow. So yes, the youngest kid in my work was like, I don't know, once ago, it was like, oh, has everyone seen everything everywhere, all at once? You've got to watch it. And so then I was like, gosh, I don't know. For some reason, this recommendation really sunk in. I don't know, watching it.
01:10:03
Speaker
Well, I thought the trailers, it looked really interesting. And, um, I love, um, thing of me, Michelle. Okay. Um, like I love the movie she's been in like, um, Crouching Tiger and Dragon and all that kind of thing. Um, Memoirs of Gator, that kind of thing. But, um, yeah, really, really strange. Movie. Um, really strange. What did you think about it? Well, I think, hmm.
01:10:32
Speaker
I'm very happy for its success, but the first half was The Matrix. And I mean, they did acknowledge that, but it is literally like almost scene for scene just with different people, like The Matrix movie, which I thought, I think, you know, it's okay, obviously, to take influence from lots of different things. But I was a bit like, wow, this is too
01:10:54
Speaker
uh, too much influence, I would say. But I think there was, there was probably lots of, there was like, it's very fast paced, uh, like moments of absurdity, which are like really fun. I think, um, the concept is kind of interesting and the, like how she can like, I guess, pull into, I don't want to give it way too much, but the overall driving force of wires was happening when I find out at the end that it's just about what it is about. I was like, this is,
01:11:18
Speaker
I was just kind of, I don't see, like, I don't want to give it away, but it's like a very small, like maybe I'm just not really big into those kinds of movies that deal with those kinds of themes, maybe. Yeah, I get what you're saying. It was just about the swan specific thing. Yeah, which wasn't enough to drive this whole movie. Yeah, I think I understand. I think I sort of agree a little bit.
01:11:42
Speaker
Um, gosh, it was just like so much. It really is everything. It's just like constant bam, bam, bam. And, um, I mean, she is amazing. And his acting as he's switching between, it's just, wow. I always think it's worth watching literally just for the actors and the acting because they are phenomenal. Like they are just brilliant. I think just the general concept and the, yeah, it was sort of something maybe missing there. And there was an awful lot of like,
01:12:09
Speaker
nods to this, nods to that, you know, various, but it felt like too many nods because it was just sort of then lots of repetition of other movies. But yeah, the acting was, was really, really, yeah, really personal movie. Anyway, sorry, massive, sorry. We can, we can, when Jamie's watched it, we can have a side episode. Yes. As non-professional baby critics. I'm very unprofessional.
01:12:35
Speaker
uh okay I think that's my place so they're on the bridge and they're talking to the captain who as you well remember his name Telec Ramor I wasn't quite sure when we found out his name but I made a note here um he accepts the test of the transport cylinder and the test is successful so they want to plan a series of tests but then he kind of says well I don't want
01:12:58
Speaker
any, they want to like the next step of this like testing process is to send a human. He's like, uh, no. And he's like, I don't want any of you on my science vessel. And they're like, well, how's that going to work? Well, he's like office himself as a test subject. And he says, if it's successful, he'll get a troop ship. Yes. Thank you.
01:13:15
Speaker
You'll summon a troop shop for the truffle. Which I'm not sure how I'd feel about as a Starfleet being on a troop ship. I'm a bit like, am I going to be sort of hauled off somewhere and put in a darkened room and beaten so it shows no bruises that I tell all. She's paranoid now, Jamie. I'm just showing due caution when entering enemy territory. It's you folk who are naively assuming the Romulans are going to play ball. Well, I am too trusting.
01:13:43
Speaker
That's my life as a testament to that.
01:13:46
Speaker
That did, that did cross my mind, to be honest. I was like, well, they really want to get home. They're going to just transport the whole crew to a Romulan treatment. Don't Romulans treat POWs quite badly in other series? I mean, I feel like all species have history of treating processes of war badly. Um, but I mean, I guess, yeah, that is a very good point, which to be honest, I didn't consider. You wouldn't want to be a POW in Cardassia. No, but they're not out of war at the time. Aren't they? Maybe they are.
01:14:15
Speaker
I don't know. But I guess they can't. It's a more fondest chronology of Starfleet. Sorry, I'm just being, I'm going to turn this to annoy Red now. They can't transport them all at once. So maybe 10 people will get across them and be like, don't come. And then, you know. But next we are in the transporter room and we find out that these 20 tests have been successful. And so now they're ready to try with Telek R'mor and it works. Again, we hear the phrase, strange phase variance.
01:14:45
Speaker
which Velana says, let me stop the transporter or transportation. So Janeway immediately orders the crew or to give the order to begin crew evacuation procedures. And I was like, well, it's so quick. But Tuvok was like, if I had to delay that, I found a reason for this phase variance. And then there's this moment where he asked the captain, what year is it? And he says, two, three, five, one, which
01:15:11
Speaker
I made a note meant nothing to me, but you guys were following along. Well, no, it's because then they do help us in this episode. That meant nothing to me either. But then someone else pipes up with, but it is two, three, seven, one. Yeah. To them. So 20 years, 20 years in the past. So they he's, they call him a visitor out of time and they've transported him from 20 years ago. This is also where I wanted from what we just spoke about the whole
01:15:41
Speaker
is another reason he's super paranoid, not just because he's Romulan, but is it that 20 years prior, perhaps, they weren't on such good terms, that Romulan... Yeah, I mean, that definitely could be a factor. I don't know his hand. No, I do, because I'm looking at the Wikipedia page for the Earth revealing conflict as we speak. No cheating. I'm kidding.
01:16:04
Speaker
So the Romulans had a campaign of destabilisation and then a war with Earth from 2154, but after the Battle of Sharon, the two sides negotiated a treaty via subspace, so until 2266,
01:16:25
Speaker
that treaty and the neutral zone served its purpose. But there were no, there were limited or no context between Earth and the Romulan star empire from the conclusion of the war until the mid 23rd century. Oh, ironically, exactly when we are or 2370. It is a factor then because then mid will 2351 is yeah, mid. So they're only just starting to talk to each other again.
01:16:56
Speaker
Yeah. You can carry on confirming that if you want to. Hey, we need these dates, dude. We need to start a contract. No, we need these dates, but us watching you read Wikipedia isn't great viewing. People listening to us watch you read Wikipedia. I'm just saying, I agree with Jenny's assessment relations going great. This context, this context.
01:17:28
Speaker
Where is the respect for historical accuracy and rigor that seems to be such a factor in our early dynamic podcasts? We can give you the title of Chief Historian or something if you want. But back to the briefing room.
01:17:48
Speaker
And Balana's basically saying, if they transport through the wormhole, they're going to go back 20 years. And how did everyone feel about Harry Kim's reaction here?
01:17:56
Speaker
Yeah, I was like, I'm with him. Let's go back 10 years. I can make some great stock market wins. He's so sweet, but wow. I think they had to have someone to play that, so they could like run through. Shoot it down. Yeah, like many reasons. But it was totally in keeping with his character. I don't think it was out of place. I just thought it was just kind of funny to me. But we also find out that he's only 22.
01:18:25
Speaker
And so I made a note here going, well, if he's only 22, no wonder he was never promoted. Cause he was like, on the late twenties. I mean, like not as.
Spoilers Debate and Crew's Dashed Hopes
01:18:34
Speaker
Yeah. So he was like 29, 30 when they eventually. I mean, it's a long time to go without a promotion, but I didn't quite realize how young he was. Yeah. He still has a long career ahead of him when they get back. Sorry. Should I say that? Is that spoiler? No. I'm assuming everyone who watches this knows that they do get back.
01:18:54
Speaker
I don't know if Jamie did. He's the only person I'm trying to protect from spoilers. I don't know. But they basically can't go back because that will pollute the timeline.
01:19:11
Speaker
have to like read it. I can't remember it. It's like Rommel, he can't do anything on his side really like prevent the mission because that will also pollute the timeline. But Jamie asked can like she still focus on that original request like can you send messages and share them in 20 years and he says of course. It really feels like they're sort of kicking the horse when
01:19:32
Speaker
they're down in this episode because they go from this, Oh my God, we're going to get home to, I can't get home. Well, maybe we can do this. Oh no, we can't. And then they finally get to their original pitiful request of, well, at least we can send. And then he died four years early.
01:19:49
Speaker
Yeah, so they beam him back to his Alpha quadrant and he makes it, which again, when I watched it the second time, actually, the fact that he's successful is actually like quite a painful moment for the crew, because they're like, this would have worked, you know, I didn't really realise that. Yeah, it's such noble dignity in this, in this whole episode, I think. And then, but they're thinking like, well, at least their messages will have reached their families. And then too far,
01:20:13
Speaker
Shame, he has to bring more bad news. To rock Death of Hope. And yes, we say, we find out he died four years ago. So now they don't know if he made a provision for the messages. But I like the little flashcard they gave him with their messages on that little piece of tech, that little orange or yellow, that was cool.
01:20:35
Speaker
It seems so fragile though, you know, like, oh my God, don't lose it. Don't put it in a pocket with, you know, a hole in it. Yeah. And again, I think, well, when was this, was that pre flash drive or like commercial but widely available flash drives?
Janeway's Leadership Journey and Doctor's Stand
01:20:52
Speaker
And then it ends on quite a, I don't know, not quite a certain note, but like that scene ends on quite a certain note. We have Janeway has to like go through all these emotions and then at the end she pulls herself together and she's like, let's move on. We've got a long way to go. She's like, she sounds as though she's taking a real hit there. Like there's a degree of, she seems
01:21:13
Speaker
It seems as though they almost at the start of this episode telegraphed her as ever so slightly naively idealistic and used this episode as being part of, and now she's getting seasoned into a home, ready to mix down everything. Everyone was a bit of an optimist.
01:21:34
Speaker
But yes, then we finished up in sickbay and Baxter is back in. I wasn't really paying attention why he kept lining up in sickbay, but I think he was exercising a lot or something. Um, and he's still ignoring the doctor, but this time the doctor stands up for himself, which I thought was interesting. He's like, you can direct your statements to me. And then Baxter improves his behavior and starts calling him, sir. Thank you, sir. Um,
01:22:03
Speaker
And he finishes the scene with Kizz and he's like kind of stepping into his role. And I'm sorry, I'm just trying to read the last line here. And I think that this episode ends on what is going to be the longest running gag in this Voyager series. When he says he wants a name. Oh, yeah. Okay. And then no one gives him a name.
01:22:31
Speaker
He just never comes up with one of these. Well, but you'll see. I mean, you'll see over the next however many episodes. But yes, he was like, I really want a name. I think he's a common. I don't remember this thread, but I don't remember whether we ever find out whether those messages. Oh, no. Yeah, no. It's episodic TV. What happened now has no bearing on it. It's an excellent episode. But yeah, yeah, I thought it was
01:23:00
Speaker
Yeah, the final scene. I mean, I think I rushed through it a bit there, but it was good to see him stand up for himself and actually how his own behavior modified the behavior of Baxter. It didn't take the captain or whatever talking to the crew and saying, you should teach the doc, treat the doctors more respect. It was the doctor saying, Hey, just asserting his skill. Yeah. Like I'm in charge here. I mean, I'm not sure that approach would always work, but it's something to consider. Yeah. And, um,
01:23:29
Speaker
No, I agree with that. No, it's gone. I had something to say and I forgot. We didn't even interrupt you, Teddy. No, sorry. And I'm very sorry I didn't because I know that's what's expected of me. I just like the fact that it's not, we did all this and we can't even be sure our messages got home that it ends on. There is a positive growth there. Yeah.
01:23:58
Speaker
What were your themes or main takeaways?
Character Recognition and Real-Life Parallels
01:24:01
Speaker
Oh, that was my thing. I was going to say, my star player was Janeway for this one. Not a theme, but... Not a theme, but that's what I remembered to what I was going to say, and then I forgot what I was going to say. Which reminds me of my favorite line for one of my favorite movies. That's not a theme. Never been kissed for anyone who's wondering. Star player for me was... Okay, so back to... You say Janeway. How come?
01:24:28
Speaker
Oh, I just, well, just the 90. I mean, I'm joking. The 90 in the big head. I'm supposed to be the one objectifying her. I just want to check here. No, I just think I just really love her scenes. Like, I just think she's such great acting. I love the emotional plea that makes it all happen. But then, you know, the switching to the leadership vibe as well. Yeah, I agree.
01:24:59
Speaker
I very much agree. Jamie, you want to stop here? Kez. With very little power influences Skipper to allow someone to strengthen themselves and do something about their situation. Janeway mentioned in Dispatches, absolutely.
01:25:18
Speaker
Harry Kim, likewise finding the world's smallest wormhole and sticking a probe down it. Lana Torres for Inventing the Teleport again. Amazing work, only beaten by Kez. You should outcome based performance management focus by Star Trek HR. Yes, I would also go for Kez. Just because she got someone, I mean, there was a lot of persuasion in this episode, but
01:25:47
Speaker
she managed to really trigger something in Janeway that led to significant change of perspective. I would have a, I would have a, what did you say? Dispatches. You can only have one star player. You can have honorable mention in dispatches. My star player is Janeway, but I will give one honorable mention to Tuvok actually in this one, just because actually I think I regret it. It takes determined negativity to be that much of a hope pooper. You're right. No, no, I think, I just think
01:26:19
Speaker
performance. I think I mean, who else considered to immediately before the guy had even left, look up, what was the history of more to find out? And there are the little things like that that he basically did that were just really sort of quietly intelligent and going ahead and actioning them. You know, because it made rational sense. I just think he did a good job.
01:26:41
Speaker
I agree. It does remind me of something I've been thinking about a lot recently, but we probably shouldn't go into, but it's like, is there a point in doing a good job? Because when you do a good job, no one notices. In terms of themes, I mean, I think I've already kind of said what I thought my theme was, but basically you can do a lot of things right and still get nowhere.
01:27:03
Speaker
Yeah, you can make the right decision at every single stage with the information you have and still lose. And they like develop, you know, brilliant technological solutions and innovated and just take all the agency you can and sometimes you just got to accept it when it's not your fault even though you've done everything you can. Yeah, it's quite good in that respect.
01:27:27
Speaker
A lot of TV is always like, well, the Sterling performance and the heroes win again, you know, and it's a bit tiresome. Whereas this is more imitation real life. You can try and try and try again and you might still fail. Um, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep on trying.
Nostalgia and Podcast Endorsement
01:27:42
Speaker
Um, which I think I quite like as if that was a theme. Any other closing thoughts?
01:27:51
Speaker
I just I don't know why but just and then the good eyes one I thought of Thundercats so I'm gonna go and watch some.
01:28:01
Speaker
I only think I know... It's a cartoon. Yeah, a cartoon. I definitely watched it as a kid and I would love to watch it again as an adult. I think about it. Believe me, it doesn't disappoint, but normally... I actually... It's hilarious. I went back and re-watched one to see, thinking, well, obviously I'm not going to enjoy it because I'm not a kid anymore and it's a cartoon. There's so many things that you can enjoy about it. It's so brilliant. It's just, I don't know, there's something about it.
01:28:27
Speaker
I did love it. Since when has something hope in like an amazing Hollywood catchphrase? Yeah, I loved that show. My mom wasn't a huge fan, but I didn't think I watched that. Was that the same time as Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Or was that a little bit later? But does anyone remember a show called, I think it was called Brave Star? It's like the straight from the Bay.
01:28:55
Speaker
I remember that oh oh yeah was it with with these like no this wasn't captain planet
01:29:04
Speaker
No. Anyway, should we wrap up and then I'll stop recording. So any final thoughts on Star Trek and then we can talk about that. I don't know, because I've just looked up Bravestar and the first thing that came up was Bravestar the movie, Space Western. That sounds amazing. So I can't really engage with your ask directly with that. It's adding to all this. I'm going to make an endorsement for podcast. Anyway.